HOLD UP, so against the league's best defenses MJ only shot 41%? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 07:59 PM

dtrg... about as meaningless of a stat as PER....
drtg calculates how many points per 100 possessions defenses allow. opponents average ~100 possessions on offense per game. so how exactly is where you rate defensively "useless"? lol

anyway, op quoted one of my posts - and it's true. against defenses that have a 101 drtg or lower (elite defenses), jordan was an inefficient volume scorer. especially in the postseason. in today's game, jordan would still be one of the best players. obviously. its just he would be less productive and/or efficient, as the hard data suggests.

Straight_Ballin

02-27-2015, 08:01 PM

Wow.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/0c/0c31dc44b95adc4660e0c38558961b42ea996f270232f2e91f 6cafe0cad52a32.jpg

3ball

02-27-2015, 08:01 PM

Wow.

There's a reason why teams like today's Milwaukee Bucks have a better (lower) defensive rating than the 1989 Bad Boys - previous eras such as the 80's had slightly higher DRtg's due to the way the stat is calculated:

The higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increases Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg in the calculation (they're the same number).

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

Just go to the basketball-reference.com link posted below - it's a helpful table that shows selected league-wide data over the years.. The last 6 columns show various factors that drive ORtg (including offensive rebounding rate and FT rate).

The table clearly shows how the significantly higher offensive rebounding and FT rates of previous eras (due to the much higher proportion of two-pointers) contributed to higher ORtg and DRtg.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

The table speaks for itself - pretty much explains literally everything, including why pace was faster in previous eras (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11070438&postcount=23).
.

Straight_Ballin

02-27-2015, 08:04 PM

drtg calculates how many points per 100 possessions defenses allow. opponents average ~100 possessions on offense per game. so how exactly is where you rate defensively "useless"? lol

anyway, op quoted one of my posts - and it's true. against defenses that have a 101 drtg or lower (elite defenses), jordan was an inefficient volume scorer. especially in the postseason. in today's game, jordan would still be one of the best players. obviously. its just he would be less productive and/or efficient, as the hard data suggests.

If these defenses were so elite, why couldn't they prevent Jordan from getting to the finals 6 times and then demonstrating perfection once he got there?

It's getting easier and easier to dismiss these foolish gimmicks. :lol

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 08:10 PM

If these defenses were so elite, why couldn't they prevent Jordan from getting to the finals 6 times and then demonstrating perfection once he got there?

It's getting easier and easier to dismiss these foolish gimmicks. :lol
because it takes both a great offense & defense to win championships - its why i never trusted the 90s knicks in the postseason. they were great at making jordan look ordinary, but they could never capitalize on his or the bulls' mistakes.

otoh, chicago remained a top 5 defensive & offensive team per said metrics.

this isn't rocket science, bud. we're talking basketball.

nba_55

02-27-2015, 08:10 PM

If these defenses were so elite, why couldn't they prevent Jordan from getting to the finals 6 times and then demonstrating perfection once he got there?

It's getting easier and easier to dismiss these foolish gimmicks. :lol

They couldn't prevent his most stacked team in history, the team that was a contender when they replaced Jordan with a D-League type of a player. Jordan is 1-9 without Pippen!

nba_55

02-27-2015, 08:11 PM

Numbers without context are meaningless. Jordan is the GOAT.
:biggums:

OldSchoolBBall

02-27-2015, 08:13 PM

nba_55

02-27-2015, 08:14 PM

I'd like the poster who said that to tell us step by step how to reproduce the search on the bball-reference site. Otherwise it's just a claim.

Regardless, a 101 DRTG then and now are two different things for a variety of reasons.

The same could be said for Jordan's rings with his most stacked team in history against expansion teams.
https://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8f30kKrEn1rbw6bto1_500.gif

OldSchoolBBall

02-27-2015, 08:15 PM

drtg calculates how many points per 100 possessions defenses allow. opponents average ~100 possessions on offense per game. so how exactly is where you rate defensively "useless"? lol

anyway, op quoted one of my posts - and it's true. against defenses that have a 101 drtg or lower (elite defenses), jordan was an inefficient volume scorer. especially in the postseason. in today's game, jordan would still be one of the best players. obviously. its just he would be less productive and/or efficient, as the hard data suggests.

Please provide the steps to reproduce this search on basketball-reference. Thanks.

Straight_Ballin

02-27-2015, 08:16 PM

They couldn't prevent his most stacked team in history, the team that was a contender when they replaced Jordan with a D-League type of a player. Jordan is 1-9 without Pippen!

Oh, you mean the guy that Jordan said to draft so that he could mentor him in practice every day, go 1v1 with him everyday, and mold him into the player that he became?

1-9? He only made it to the finals 6 times. :lol

warriorfan

02-27-2015, 08:17 PM

Yeah I'm calling BS on the OP this sounds bunk

nba_55

02-27-2015, 08:18 PM

Oh, you mean the guy that Jordan said to draft so that he could mentor him in practice every day, go 1v1 with him everyday, and mold him into the player that he became?

1-9? He only made it to the finals 6 times. :lol

1-9 without Pippen in the playoffs. 6 times finals without Pippen:lol :lol He would be another career loser without Pippen.

DonDadda59

02-27-2015, 08:20 PM

dtrg... about as meaningless of a stat as PER....

This. All so called advanced metrics are useless with no context. According to DRTG, the 60s and 70s were BY FAR the greatest defensive era in NBA History. But of course the 'weak era' crowd would vehemently disagree while simultaneously using that flawed metric to bolster their paper tiger favorite player.

And this is what you call context:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw

That's the sort of defense that was being played on Jordan in the finals when he was in his 30s.

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 08:21 PM

I'd like the poster who said that to tell us step by step how to reproduce the search on the bball-reference site. Otherwise it's just a claim.

Regardless, a 101 DRTG then and now are two different things for a variety of reasons.
not really difficult.
pull up his game-logs against the 93 knicks, 97 heat and 98 indiana pacers (all ~101 drtg).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993_games.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1997_games.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1998_games.html

i could have missed a few matchups from the 93 regular season (vs the knicks), but looking at his numbers, they actually bring his percentages down. :oldlol:

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 08:26 PM

This. All so called advanced metrics are useless with no context. According to DRTG, the 60s and 70s were BY FAR the greatest defensive era in NBA History. But of course the 'weak era' crowd would vehemently disagree while simultaneously using that flawed metric to bolster their paper tiger favorite player.

And this is what you call context:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw

That's the sort of defense that was being played on Jordan in the finals when he was in his 30s.
a total of 8-10 teams & the league in its infancy. yea.. i would say that's a legitimate excuse. also a HUGE lol @ you quoting 'weak era crowd' as if you've never called into question the 60s and 70s. :oldlol:

jzek

02-27-2015, 08:30 PM

Yes, because LeBron would shoot 50%+ against THIS defense that MJ faced -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ

3ball

02-27-2015, 08:33 PM

Lebron shot 35% in the 2007 Finals... only averaged 17.8 PPG in the 2011 Finals.

Lebron's playoff performance and stats are materially worse than Jordan's.

Lebron shoots 43% for his career in the Finals, compared to Jordan's 48%.... along with a 24 PPG Finals average to MJ's 34 PPG.

and on.... and on... and on... with Lebron's inferior performance to MJ.
.

Hey Yo

02-27-2015, 08:33 PM

nba_55

02-27-2015, 08:35 PM

Yes, because LeBron would shoot 50%+ against THIS defense that MJ faced -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ

Yes, he would, easily.

3ball

02-27-2015, 08:36 PM

.
MJ's Stats in Each Playoff Series vs. Top 5 Defense

MIL 1985 1st Rd (59-23, #2 ranked defense.. 29.3 pts.. 5.8 rebs.. 8.6 assists.. 56.5% TS.. 43.6% FG)

BOS 1986 1st Rd (67-15, #1 ranked defense.. 43.7.. 6.3.. 5.7.. 58.4% TS.. 50.5% FG)

CLE 1988 1st Rd (42-40, #5 ranked defense... 45.2.. 5.4.. 4.8.. 63.2% TS.. 55.9% FG)

DET 1988 2nd Rd (54-28, #2-ranked defense... 27.8.. 8.8.. 4.6.. 54.9% TS.. 49.1% FG)

CLE 1989 1st Rd (57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 59.8% TS.. 51.8% FG)

DET 1989 ECF (62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 59.8% TS.. 46.0% FG)

DET 1990 ECF (62-20, #2 ranked defense... 32.1.. 7.1.. 6.3.. 56.6% TS.. 46.7% FG)

DET 1991 ECF (52-30, #4 ranked defense.. 29.8.. 5.3.. 7.0.. 64.6% TS.. 53.5% FG)

LAL 1991 Finals (58-24, #5 ranked defense... 31.2.. 6.6.. 11.4.. 61.2% TS.. 55.2% FG)

POR 1992 Finals (57-25, #3 ranked defense.. 35.8.. 4.8.. 6.5.. 61.7% TS.. 52.6% FG)

NYK 1992 ECF (51-31, #2 ranked defense.. 31.3.. 5.7.. 4.3.. 53.3% TS.. 47.7% FG)

NYK 1993 ECF (60-22, #1 ranked defense.. 32.2.. 6.2.. 7.0.. 52.2% TS.. 40.4% FG)

BASEBALL (AA Outfielder): .202 BA.. 436 AB.. 88 H.. 3 HR.. 46 R.. 51 RBI

NYK 1996 ECF (47-35.. 4th ranked defense.. 36.0.. 4.8.. 4.4.. 53.4% TS.. 44.2% FG)

SEA 1996 Finals (64-18.. #2 ranked defense.. 27.3.. 5.3.. 4.2.. 53.8%.. 41.5% FG)

ATL 1997 2nd Rd (56-26.. #3 ranked defense.. 26.6.. 10.2.. 5.2.. 50.6% TS.. 45.4% FG)

MIA 1997 ECF (61-21.. #1 ranked defense.. 30.2.. 8.6.. 2.6.. 47.5% TS.. 38.7% FG)

IND 1998 ECF (58-24.. #5 ranked defense.. 31.7.. 5.7.. 4.1.. 55.6% TS.. 46.7% FG)

The above performance represents the greatest performance by anyone versus elite playoff defenses.. :confusedshrug:
.

DonDadda59

02-27-2015, 08:37 PM

a total of 8-10 teams & the league in its infancy. yea.. i would say that's a legitimate excuse. also a HUGE lol @ you quoting 'weak era crowd' as if you've never called into question the 60s and 70s. :oldlol:

How was the league in it's 'infancy' when it was founded in 1946? :confusedshrug:

And by the mid to late 70s there were 22 teams in the league. Now go do me a favor and take a look at the DRTGs for teams in the '77-'78 season, then come back here and explain to me how LeBron James is playing against better defenses than George Gervin or David Thompson.

I'll wait. :oldlol:

SHAQisGOAT

02-27-2015, 08:40 PM

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 08:47 PM

How was the league in it's 'infancy' when it was founded in 1946? :confusedshrug:

And by the mid to late 70s there were 22 teams in the league. Now go do me a favor and take a look at the DRTGs for teams in the '77-'78 season, then come back here and explain to me how LeBron James is playing against better defenses than George Gervin or David Thompson.

I'll wait. :oldlol:

...how was the league in its infancy when there were roughly 10 teams in the 60s? when in the late 70s and 80s we had about double? is that what you're asking?

:biggums:

OldSchoolBBall

02-27-2015, 08:49 PM

not really difficult.
pull up his game-logs against the 93 knicks, 97 heat and 98 indiana pacers (all ~101 drtg).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993_games.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1997_games.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1998_games.html

i could have missed a few matchups from the 93 regular season (vs the knicks), but looking at his numbers, they actually bring his percentages down. :oldlol:

So basically all your sample size consists of are two series against two of the best and most physical defenses of all time (including one when he was 34 years old), and another series when he was 35 years old running on fumes. LMAO @ this clown. :roll:

Should have known this claim was bullsh!t. :facepalm

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 08:51 PM

Against the league's best defenses??? Jordan shot considerably more than 41%, while scoring big, against the league's best defenses... plenty of times.

DRtg can't be straight-up compared for single teams across eras :facepalm They weren't playing vs the same opponents, under the same "style", within the same (written/unwritten) rules...
against defenses in his era that averaged a similar defensive efficiency today (both considered elite), he shot poorly.

not sure why this is hard to grasp. :confusedshrug:

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 08:52 PM

So basically all your sample size consists of are two series against two of the best and most physical defenses of all time (including one when he was 34 years old), and another series when he was 35 years old running on fumes. LMAO @ this clown. :roll:

Should have known this claim was bullsh!t. :facepalm
don't forget - regular season game-logs too. keep on making excuses though. that's about a playoff/championship run of games there. :oldlol:

and double, no, triple LOL at "jordan running on fumes" :roll:

DonDadda59

02-27-2015, 08:56 PM

DRtg can't be straight-up compared for single teams across eras :facepalm

Clearly, you don't know shit about basketball :facepalm

'77-'78 Best DRTG
1) Phoenix Sun 97
2) Portland Trailblazers 97.2
3) Seattle Sonics 97.7
4) GS Warriors 99.3
5) Cleveland Cavaliers 99.4

'14-'15 Best DRTG
1) GS Warriors 101
2) Milwaukee Bukcs 101.7
3) Portland Trailblazers 102.2
4) Memphis Grizzlies 102.2
5) Atlanta Hawks 102.6

Safe to say all the top scorers in the 70s (Pistol Pete, Gervin, Thompson, etc) would RAPE the league that Curry, LeBron, Harden etc are thriving in today. How do I know this? The mighty infallible DRTG tells me so. :applause:

gts

02-27-2015, 08:58 PM

This isn't Jameer.
http://i61.tinypic.com/2qsaww5.jpg

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 08:58 PM

.
MJ's Stats in Each Playoff Series vs. Top 5 Defense

MIL 1985 1st Rd (59-23, #2 ranked defense.. 29.3 pts.. 5.8 rebs.. 8.6 assists.. 56.5% TS.. 43.6% FG)
103.6 DRtg

BOS 1986 1st Rd (67-15, #1 ranked defense.. 43.7.. 6.3.. 5.7.. 58.4% TS.. 50.5% FG)
102.6 DRtg

CLE 1988 1st Rd (42-40, #5 ranked defense... 45.2.. 5.4.. 4.8.. 63.2% TS.. 55.9% FG)
106 DRtg

DET 1988 2nd Rd (54-28, #2-ranked defense... 27.8.. 8.8.. 4.6.. 54.9% TS.. 49.1% FG)
105 DRtg

CLE 1989 1st Rd (57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 59.8% TS.. 51.8% FG)
102.9 DRtg

DET 1989 ECF (62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 59.8% TS.. 46.0% FG)
104.7 DRtg

DET 1990 ECF (62-20, #2 ranked defense... 32.1.. 7.1.. 6.3.. 56.6% TS.. 46.7% FG)
103.5 DRtg

DET 1991 ECF (52-30, #4 ranked defense.. 29.8.. 5.3.. 7.0.. 64.6% TS.. 53.5% FG)
104.6 DRtg

LAL 1991 Finals (58-24, #5 ranked defense... 31.2.. 6.6.. 11.4.. 61.2% TS.. 55.2% FG)
105 DRtg

POR 1992 Finals (57-25, #3 ranked defense.. 35.8.. 4.8.. 6.5.. 61.7% TS.. 52.6% FG)
104 DRtg

NYK 1992 ECF (51-31, #2 ranked defense.. 31.3.. 5.7.. 4.3.. 53.3% TS.. 47.7% FG)
104.2 DRtg

NYK 1993 ECF (60-22, #1 ranked defense.. 32.2.. 6.2.. 7.0.. 52.2% TS.. 40.4% FG)
~100 DRtg

NYK 1996 ECF (47-35.. 4th ranked defense.. 36.0.. 4.8.. 4.4.. 53.4% TS.. 44.2% FG)
103.5 DRtg

SEA 1996 Finals (64-18.. #2 ranked defense.. 27.3.. 5.3.. 4.2.. 53.8%.. 41.5% FG)
102 DRtg

ATL 1997 2nd Rd (56-26.. #3 ranked defense.. 26.6.. 10.2.. 5.2.. 50.6% TS.. 45.4% FG)
102.3 DRtg

MIA 1997 ECF (61-21.. #1 ranked defense.. 30.2.. 8.6.. 2.6.. 47.5% TS.. 38.7% FG)
~100 DRtg

IND 1998 ECF (58-24.. #5 ranked defense.. 31.7.. 5.7.. 4.1.. 55.6% TS.. 46.7% FG)
~101 DRtg

FTFY - once again, it's no coincidence that jordan struggled with his shot against defenses who averaged ~101 DRtg or lower (elite defenses - apparently, jordan forgot he was "running on fumes" against everyone else :oldlol:).

for comparisons sake, lebron has multiple series averaging ~30/5/5 on superb shooting percentages.. against said defenses.

DonDadda59

02-27-2015, 09:01 PM

...how was the league in its infancy when there were roughly 10 teams in the 60s? when in the late 70s and 80s we had about double? is that what you're asking?

:biggums:

My nigguh, stop bullshitting and answer this question true or false-

LeBron James (26 PPG, 3rd in the league) right now is facing much worse defenses than Pistol Pete (27 PPG, 3rd in the league) did in the '77-'78 season.

If you answer false... do explain why. Thanks :D

OldSchoolBBall

02-27-2015, 09:03 PM

don't forget - regular season game-logs too. keep on making excuses though. that's about a playoff/championship run of games there. :oldlol:

and double, no, triple LOL at "jordan running on fumes" :roll:

Which regular season games specifically? if they're a couple of games against the '93 Knicks and '97 Heat, the same thing applies.

And quadruple lol @ you if you don't think Jordan was running on fumes at age 35 by the time the ECF rolled around, especially the latter games of that series, which went 7 games.

SHAQisGOAT

02-27-2015, 09:04 PM

against defenses in his era that averaged a similar defensive efficiency today (both considered elite), he shot poorly.

not sure why this is hard to grasp. :confusedshrug:

How you figure? You're comparing them straight-up using DRtg? Can't be done like that for single teams across eras, like I've said.

Let me get this straight... In your mind, last year's Bobcats are a better defensive team than the 1989 Pistons? They were "elite" and Bad Boys weren't, or something?
:rolleyes:
Who would you take (defensively here)? A team with Rodman, Dumars, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Salley, etc, coached by Chuck Daly or a team with MKG, Al Jefferson, Kemba, McRobetrs, G Henderson Jr, etc, coached by Steve Clifford? Exactly...

Again, they weren't playing against the same opponents, under the same "era style", within the same written/unwritten rules...
Shit, Bad Boys were even on another level offensively, enabling them to coast more on defense sometimes, let's say, and they won more so with a bigger lead you're giving up more points at the end... Stuff like that also matters.

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 09:06 PM

My nigguh, stop bullshitting and answer this question true or false-

LeBron James (26 PPG, 3rd in the league) right now is facing much worse defenses than Pistol Pete (27 PPG, 3rd in the league) did in the '77-'78 season.

If you answer false... do explain why. Thanks :D
the late 70s is different because of the merger (more or less, modern basketball). i wouldn't argue with anyone making that claim. legit, real handchecking existed, and offenses weren't run and gun like they were in the 80s and early 90s (my opinion off of the film i've seen).

SHAQisGOAT

02-27-2015, 09:07 PM

My nigguh, stop bullshitting and answer this question true or false-

LeBron James (26 PPG, 3rd in the league) right now is facing much worse defenses than Pistol Pete (27 PPG, 3rd in the league) did in the '77-'78 season.

If you answer false... do explain why. Thanks :D

:lol :applause:

**** tht, Pistol Pete put up 31 PPG (#1 in the league) without a 3pt-line in 1977, league average DRtg being 99.5 :eek: "Real" handchecking also in play. Oh, in a bigmen-driven league, let's say.

Wtch them move that goal-post though...

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 09:08 PM

[B]How you figure? You're comparing them straight-up using DRtg? Can't be done like that for single teams across eras, like I've said.

Let me get this straight... In your mind, last year's Bobcats are a better defensive team than the 1989 Pistons? They were "elite" and Bad Boys weren't, or something?

i think they did a better job of holding their opponents to less points per 100 possessions - 100 possessions being the average number of possessions a team has per game.

97 bulls

02-27-2015, 09:13 PM

i think they did a better job of holding their opponents to less points per 100 possessions - 100 possessions being the average number of possessions a team has per game.
But along the same lines, Dennis Rodman has a higher career FG% than Lebron James, you gonna tell me hes a better scorer cuz in theory, if he were to take as many shots as James, hed avg more pts. So you must feel Rodman is a better scorer than James right?

SHAQisGOAT

02-27-2015, 09:14 PM

http://www.idioms4you.com/img/angif-move-the-goalposts-def.gif

DonDadda59

02-27-2015, 09:14 PM

:lol :applause:

**** tht, Pistol Pete put up 31 PPG (#1 in the league) without a 3pt-line in 1977, league average DRtg being 99.5 :eek: "Real" handchecking also in play. Oh, in a bigmen-driven league, let's say.

Wtch them move that goal-post though...

It's always fun watching these advanced stats nerds who clearly don't know anything about basketball stumble their way through discussions about the game. :roll:

Advanced metrics without context are meaningless and can be easily manipulated to fit any agenda. Anyone who saw Jordan play knows he would make a mockery of the league the way defense is played today, especially in regard to perimeter players. If you thought KD ran away with the scoring title last year, I'd hate to see what a young MJ would've done.

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 09:17 PM

http://www.idioms4you.com/img/angif-move-the-goalposts-def.gif
this guy. :oldlol: i've acknowledged your hoops acumen, and consider you one of the brightest basketball minds on here.. but it seems like you can't handle the facts and are now resorting to petty bs (for whatever reason).

i've done my best to back up my opinions with data & facts, so that's on you.

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 09:18 PM

But along the same lines, Dennis Rodman has a higher career FG% than Lebron James, you gonna tell me hes a better scorer cuz in theory, if he were to take as many shots as James, hed avg more pts. So you must feel Rodman is a better scorer than James right?
:crazysam:

how is that even remotely the same? lebron is a scorer. dennis rodman, admittedly, was not.

97 bulls

02-27-2015, 09:19 PM

It's always fun watching these advanced stats nerds who clearly don't know anything about basketball stumble their way through discussions about the game. :roll:

Advanced metrics without context are meaningless and can be easily manipulated to fit any agenda. Anyone who saw Jordan play knows he would make a mockery of the league the way defense is played today, especially in regard to perimeter players. If you thought KD ran away with the scoring title last year, I'd hate to see what a young MJ would've done.
Exactly.

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 09:22 PM

97 bulls

02-27-2015, 09:22 PM

:crazysam:

how is that even remotely the same? lebron is a scorer. dennis rodman was not.
Lol. Because STATISTICALLY, Rodman was a more efficient scorer than James.

I gonna switch your.question around on you and ask, the Pistons were a great defense while the Bobcats aren't.

My point is that its all about context.

DonDadda59

02-27-2015, 09:24 PM

so basically the number of points you allow is advanced to you? are you being sarcastic? lol

You still never answered my question dawg. Any time you're ready.

answer this question true or false-

LeBron James (26 PPG, 3rd in the league) right now is facing much worse defenses than Pistol Pete (27 PPG, 3rd in the league) did in the '77-'78 season.

If you answer false... do explain why. Thanks

I'll be right here, waiting for you /Ricard Marx.

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 09:27 PM

Lol. Because STATISTICALLY, Rodman was a more efficient scorer than James.

I gonna switch your.question around on you and ask, the Pistons were a great defense while the Bobcats aren't.

My point is that its all about context.
the bobcats essentially allow less points per game. nothing more. nothing less.

what you deem "superior" isn't of my concern. i'm dealing with pure unabated data - the same data that notes jordan's struggles against a specific set of defenses.

SHAQisGOAT

02-27-2015, 09:28 PM

this guy. :oldlol: i've acknowledged your hoops acumen, and consider you one of the brightest basketball minds on here.. but it seems like you can't handle the facts and are now resorting to petty bs (for whatever reason).

i've done my best to back up my opinions with data & facts, so that's on you.

Thks, I can appreciate that. It's all good.

I was even responding to OP at first but whatever.

I'm just saying... You can't straight-up compare DRtgs for single teams across eras, basing their defensive proweness on that.
One more time... They're not facing the same opponents, playing under same "era's styles", within the same written/unwritten rules, so on...

Answer me these two simple questions, with no bullshit:
-Defensively, would you take the 2014 Bobcats over the 1989 Pistons?
-Prime Kareem, Pistol Pete, George Gervin, Bob McAdoo, etc, CLEARLY faced better defenses (in the 70's) than what these superstars see nowadays?

And, again, please don't move that goalpost.

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 09:28 PM

You still never answered my question dawg. Any time you're ready.

answer this question true or false-

LeBron James (26 PPG, 3rd in the league) right now is facing much worse defenses than Pistol Pete (27 PPG, 3rd in the league) did in the '77-'78 season.

If you answer false... do explain why. Thanks

I'll be right here, waiting for you /Ricard Marx.
i've answered this already. press the "back" button, guy.

DonDadda59

02-27-2015, 09:34 PM

i've answered this already. press the "back" button, guy.

What part of true or false don't you get broseph? :confusedshrug:

Any time you're ready...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/KuL1CnoEaqj7y21btjA1brURo1_500.jpg

sportjames23

02-27-2015, 09:34 PM

What happened to your Ariza4three account Jameer?

This account is weak sauce. :confusedshrug:

LOL, his dumbass got banned in less than 3 hours. :oldlol:

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 09:42 PM

What part of true or false don't you get broseph? :confusedshrug:

Any time you're ready...

the late 70s is different because of the merger (more or less, modern basketball). i wouldn't argue with anyone making that claim. legit, real handchecking existed, and offenses weren't run and gun like they were in the 80s and early 90s (my opinion off of the film i've seen).

and just to add onto my post.. i wouldn't go as far to say "much better", as schemes and principles are constantly updated today as per thibodeau, bird, and ainge - but sure, statistically, the late 70s were a stagnant defensive tug of war.

both eras were/are better defensively than the 80s & and 90s, however.

97 bulls

02-27-2015, 09:43 PM

the bobcats essentially allow less points per game. nothing more. nothing less.

what you deem "superior" isn't of my concern. i'm dealing with pure unabated data - the same data that notes jordan's struggles against a specific set of defenses.
Pure unabated data also shows that based on 100 FGAs, Rodman converts at a higher rate than Lebron James. Therefore, youd be more apt to let Rodman take more shots that James.

OldSchoolBBall

02-27-2015, 09:44 PM

Again:

Which regular season games specifically? if they're a couple of games against the '93 Knicks and '97 Heat, the same thing applies.

And quadruple lol @ you if you don't think Jordan was running on fumes at age 35 by the time the ECF rolled around, especially the latter games of that series, which went 7 games.

DatAsh

02-27-2015, 09:45 PM

Thks, I can appreciate that. It's all good.

I was even responding to OP at first but whatever.

I'm just saying... You can't straight-up compare DRtgs for single teams across eras, basing their defensive proweness on that.
One more time... They're not facing the same opponents, playing under same "era's styles", within the same written/unwritten rules, so on...

Answer me these two simple questions, with no bullshit:
-Defensively, would you take the 2014 Bobcats over the 1989 Pistons?
-Prime Kareem, Pistol Pete, George Gervin, Bob McAdoo, etc, CLEARLY faced better defenses (in the 70's) than what these superstars see nowadays?

And, again, please don't move that goalpost.

Or,

Was 40 year old Jordan a better defender than 28 year old Jordan? 28 year old Jordan led Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant - great defenders in their own right - to a 105.2 Drtg. 40 year old Jordan led a group of scrubs to a 104.1 Drtg. Was 40 year old Jordan a better defender than 28 year old Jordan? Drtg would seem to suggest that.

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 09:46 PM

Pure unabated data also shows that based on 100 FGAs, Rodman converts at a higher rate than Lebron James. Therefore, youd be more apt to let Rodman take more shots that James.
rodman doesn't take 100 FGA per game like a team would 100 possessions ...

...your comparison is wildly inaccurate and off-base. lol

DonDadda59

02-27-2015, 09:48 PM

Bro... a simple true or false question. What's so hard about that? :lol

and just to add onto my post.. i wouldn't go as far to say "much better", as schemes and principles are constantly updated today as per thibodeau, bird, and ainge - but sure, statistically, the late 70s were a stagnant defensive tug of war.

both eras were/are better defensively than the 80s & and 90s, however.

So schemes and principles were updated in the 70s (DRTGs were better in the 60s by a big margin but let's not dwell on facts)... then stopped in the 80s and 90s (The Jordan Rules had nothing to do with basketball, little Historical FYI) and then were updated again in the 2000s? Is this what a sensible basketball fan is to believe? :confusedshrug:

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 09:48 PM

Or,

Was 40 year old Jordan a better defender than 28 year old Jordan? 28 year old Jordan led Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant - great defenders in their own right - to a 105.2 Drtg. 40 year old Jordan led a group of scrubs to a 104.1 Drtg. Was 40 year old Jordan a better defender than 28 year old Jordan? Drtg would seem to suggest that.
or... the wizards were better at holding teams to less points per 100 possessions - once again, 100 possessions being the average per game.

nba_55

02-27-2015, 09:51 PM

Or,

Was 40 year old Jordan a better defender than 28 year old Jordan? 28 year old Jordan led Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant - great defenders in their own right - to a 105.2 Drtg. 40 year old Jordan led a group of scrubs to a 104.1 Drtg. Was 40 year old Jordan a better defender than 28 year old Jordan? Drtg would seem to suggest that.

Drtg is based on the team's performance, not one player's performance. Stop interpreting all the team stats as one player's contribution. All the 12 players contribute to those stats.

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 09:51 PM

Bro... a simple true or false question. What's so hard about that? :lol

So schemes and principles were updated in the 70s (DRTGs were better in the 60s by a big margin but let's not dwell on facts)... then stopped in the 80s and 90s (The Jordan Rules had nothing to do with basketball, little Historical FYI) and then were updated again in the 2000s? Is this what a sensible basketball fan is to believe? :confusedshrug:
easy. less uptempo, more half-court based, along with handchecking still being intact (read up on the rules). the 70s weren't run & gun like the 80's and 90's, the same era bird and ainge played in, and who both admitted defense wasn't being played.

“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says. “There’s better shooting back then, better defense now."

“Offenses are a little more complex because the defenses have forced that,” Ainge says. “In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up."

DonDadda59

02-27-2015, 09:58 PM

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]easy. less uptempo, more half-court based, along with handchecking still being intact (read up on the rules). the 70s weren't run & gun like the 80's and 90's, the same era bird and ainge played in, and both admitted defense wasn't being played.

[B]

SHAQisGOAT

02-27-2015, 10:02 PM

DatAsh

02-27-2015, 10:02 PM

or... the wizards were better at holding teams to less points per 100 possessions - once again, 100 possessions being the average per game.

So if two teams are defending different offenses, is the team that holds their opponent to less points per 100 possessions the better defensive team?

Would you say that the 2003 Wizards were a better defense than the 1991 Bulls?

Would you say that 2003 Jordan, Laettner, and Hughes were better defenders than 1991 Jordan, Pippen, Grant, given that they held teams to fewer points per 100 possessions?

Would you say that the 98' Bulls were better defensively than the 96' and 97' Bulls, given that they held teams to fewer points per 100 possessions?

DatAsh

02-27-2015, 10:02 PM

Drtg is based on the team's performance, not one player's performance. Stop interpreting all the team stats as one player's contribution. All the 12 players contribute to those stats.

You're missing the point, badly.

Would you say that 2003 Jordan, Laettner, and Hughes were better defenders than 1991 Jordan, Pippen, Grant, given that they held teams to fewer points per 100 possessions?

Do you think the 2003 Wizards were better defensively than the 1991 Bulls? Serious question btw.

SHAQisGOAT

02-27-2015, 10:04 PM

So if two teams are defending different offenses, is the team that holds their opponent to less points per 100 possessions the better defensive team?

Would you say that the 2003 Wizards were a better defense than the 1991 Bulls?

Would you say that 2003 Jordan, Laettner, and Hughes were better defenders than 1991 Jordan, Pippen, Grant, given that they held teams to fewer points per 100 possessions?

Would you say that the 98' Bulls were better defensively than the 96' and 97' Bulls, given that they held teams to fewer points per 100 possessions?

Exctly

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-27-2015, 10:06 PM

Holy crap, it's like 2008-2009 "ZONE defense" wars again. This time w/ the LeBron junkies. :oldlol:

juju151111

02-27-2015, 10:06 PM

Jacks3

02-27-2015, 10:10 PM

2003 Wizards: 104.1 DRTG, +.5 relative to league average
1991 Bulls: 105.2 DRTG, -2.7 relative to league average

No, the Wizards were nowhere near as good. Raw DRTG is useless across eras.

You have to look at the number relative to league average.

:facepalm

DatAsh

02-27-2015, 10:11 PM

I guest Pippen didn't really help Mj really if he could of led his team to that defensive efficiency with Scottie Pip out.

I get that you're joking, and not that I don't understand that, but what Pippen did for the Bulls in 94 and 95 - without Jordan - was incredible.

The Bulls actually improved defensively when Jordan left.

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 10:15 PM

And I can bring up tons of quotes of people who say the exact opposite of Bird and Ainge... what is that supposed to prove exactly? And you say the 70s weren't run & gun like the 80s and 90s... when the Pace in the 70s was some of the highest in league History whereas the mid-late 90s was the slowest paced era in league History (Jordan in his 30s won scoring titles & championships then).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

You clearly don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. :oldlol:

which is exactly why the defensive schemes of today are better and that your "would you agree that 70s defenses are better" trip was completely ignored. how pathetic must have the 80s defense been, despite having a few less possessions, yet averaging a far worse drtg?

the 2k era has the best combo of drtg/pace/ppg allowed. period.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-27-2015, 10:18 PM

which is exactly why the defensive schemes of today are better and that your "would you agree that 70s defenses are better" trip was completely ignored. how pathetic must have the 80s defense been, despite having a few less possessions, yet averaging a far worse drtg?

the 2k era has the best combo of drtg/pace/ppg allowed. period.
This fool trying to dig himself outta the grave Don buried him in. You got f*cking wrecked, kid. :roll:

97 bulls

02-27-2015, 10:20 PM

rodman doesn't take 100 FGA per game like a team would 100 possessions ...

...your comparison is wildly inaccurate and off-base. lol
What? Perhaps your math is different from mine. Percentages have always been based off 100. Rodman has taken well over 100 shots for his career.

juju151111

02-27-2015, 10:21 PM

This fool trying to dig himself outta the grave Don buried him in. You got f*cking wrecked, kid. :roll:
Funny to watch. This clown thinks he doing something knew. He should of asked Kobe fans who got wrecked back in 08-10 and went into hiding about this.

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 10:22 PM

What? Perhaps your math is different from mine. Percentages have always been based off 100. Rodman has taken well over 100 shots for his career.
~100 possessions a game =/= 100 FGA accumulated in multiple games

deja vu

02-27-2015, 10:22 PM

Superstars always shoot worse against better defenses.

Jordan did, Kobe did, LeBron did, Wilt did, Kareem did, Bird did.

Why is this a surprise?

mehyaM24

02-27-2015, 10:43 PM

in fact, i have tons of clips i could pluck out right now, if need be, but i rather just back my opinion with PURE facts:

what coaches say:
Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game—Bird, Byron Scott and Danny Ainge—talked to the Sporting News about the NBA, then and now. The three agree with the widely held perception that today’s players are superior athletically but less skilled in the basics. They admit defense is emphasized more today.

“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says. “There’s better defense now."
“In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up. Defense is more focused upon in today's game. "

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/stor...finals-meeting

what today's defensive rating and offensive rating says:
from 2012-14, there were 33 teams with a defensive rating below 103 - 5 teams with a 99 drtg or lower
from 1991-93, there was 1 team with a defensive rating below 103 - the knicks

from 2012-14, there were 13 teams with an offensive rating of 110+
from 1991-93, there 22 teams with an offensive rating of 110+

what do we get from this information? not only are today's defensive schemes and overall TEAM defenses better (holding opponents to less points per 100 possessions - what teams average on each end), but also that nobody played consistent defense during jordan's BEST years (ORtg says more teams in the 90s scored more points per 100 possessions - what teams average on each end). this is ALL you need to know about defenses from THEN and today

for visual evidence, please watch the following gifs:
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/0C1BeO.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/sMQEbr.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/JfEV8n.gif

^^^ horrific defensive positioning. all open, uncontested jumpers.

an even more deplorable defensive possession, however, is what we see in this *gif:
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/WmQJwT.gif

here we see terrible defensive positioning, lackadaisical effort, and no help defense - of course, danny ainge did mention that back in his era, defense was NOT prioritized, so i guess that answers that.