ISH Logic: Feel free to add

[KirbyPls]

1. Despite Lebron's superior stats in 2009 and 2010 (playoffs included), Kobe was actually the league's MVP and best player, because the Lakers won the title those years; However, in 2014, despite nearly matching an admittedly amazing regular season from Durant, Lebron lost the "best player" label after clearly outperforming Durant in the playoffs.

2. Miami and Cleveland are the most stacked teams of all time relative to competition, yet both squads would lose against any West team equal to the Blazers lever or better each year in the Finals for the past two years at least.

3. In the "GOAT" Western Conference," the Spurs were "old and pathetic" when the beat the Heat in 2014, yet no team in the almighty West could take them out before they reached reached the WCF for three years straight.

4. The 2011 Mavs had no business winning the chip, and were "not that good," yet they swept the two-time defending champion Lakers, including a game 5 blowout, and dismissed a dangerous Thunder in 5 to reach the Finals, again in a stacked West.

5. Magic had a more difficult road to the Finals in the 80s than Lebron in the past four years, because the 80s East was stacked, obviously.

6. Bonus: It is far worse and shameful to exercise your free agency options after seven years in order to team up with two fellow stars than it is to tell teams interested in drafting you that you will only play with a top 2-3 GOAT still in his prime, or you will return to college, then, after your power play works, have your coach fired a couple years later after said coach won a ring with the stacked squad in your rookie year.

Any others?

[KirbyPls]

In before TL;DR :lol

[nba_55]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Budadiiii]

None of this makes any sense.

1. Kobes team won the title, Lebrons didn't in 2014. Bigass difference.

2. Nobody says this but idiots. You pretty much just pulled this out of your ass.

3. Nobody says this, period.

4. They had no business beating them. All LeBron had to do was play DECENT. They were up big in game 2 and LeBron bitched out. He blew the series.

5. Who cares, he won 5 times.

[Foster5k]

Any others?
7. Don't read threads made by LeBron stans like KirbyPls. Your IQ will suffer.

[Solefade]

Since 2012, we've been having the same arguments every year about LeBron. Doesn't arguing with retards get really old at some point to you guys?

[GreggPopazit]

3. Nobody says this, period.


Yeah, there were several issues, but this stood out the most. People don't bash on the Spurs of 2014 as a whole team.

[KirbyPls]

Yeah, there were several issues, but this stood out the most. People don't bash on the Spurs of 2014 as a whole team.

2014 Spurs are one of the greatest teams I've ever seen, and I've watched since '95. Don't kid yourself, read any complimentary Lebron thread, there will be an illusion to his competition level and a jab at the 2014 Finals loss.

There are excellent posters on ISH, but any other player of Lebron's stature does not have the ridiculous double-standards, and non-stop trolling that he gets. It annoys me, I appreciate all the greats, Kobe and MJ included; dudes I always rooted against, but supposed objective posters cannot, or will not afford similar treatment to Lebron. It's disingenuous and ridiculous.

That being said, ISH is the GOAT board!!!!! :applause: :applause: :applause:

[J Shuttlesworth]

Hit the nail on the head, OP. Some other ones:

-LeBron turns big men into spot up shooters... yet Mozgov and Varejao get the vast majority of their buckets directly at the basket. Same with Birdman on the Heat. Love/Bosh are players who took a lot of jumpers before they played with LBJ
-If the 2012 Heat played in the west, they wouldn't have made the WCF... even though they beat the almighty western OKC Thunder in 5 games, yet were taken to 7 games against the Celtics

[KirbyPls]

None of this makes any sense.

1. Kobes team won the title, Lebrons didn't in 2014. Bigass difference.

2. Nobody says this but idiots. You pretty much just pulled this out of your ass.

3. Nobody says this, period.

4. They had no business beating them. All LeBron had to do was play DECENT. They were up big in game 2 and LeBron bitched out. He blew the series.

5. Who cares, he won 5 times.

1. Best player in the game =/= who won the Finals;

2. You have said this, multiple times, as well as argued Durant passed Lebron in 2012, so stop;

3. LOL, you will bring up the 2011 Finals, if Lebron wins 8 rings (which he won't), but you will never give Dirk or the Mavs credit (proving my point);

4. Lebron choked, yet ironically, with this statement, you dismiss the 2011 Mavs low-key (as I alluded to earlier. Why didn't Kobe beat the Mavs, if he "played decent?"

5. Kobe is a great player, but no player wins without help. LBJ and Kobe have both lost with great teams and being favored. I would suspect an orthopedic surgeon and OKC fan would understand, since OKC has failed with stacked squads for almost a half decade.

[SouBeachTalents]

1. It's a lot better for your legacy to lose in the first round or miss the playoffs than to make the Finals. Shaq can get swept 6 times, Hakeem can fail to advance past the first round 5 years in a row, but LeBron making 5 Finals and losing 3 times, twice with the inferior team? Completely unacceptable: 2/5 < 1/1

2. LeBron will get criticized for not "sticking through the tough times" with his original team while Magic, Bird, and Kobe will get praised for it. Even though Magic and Bird played on the two most stacked teams of their era and Kobe had the MDE at his absolute peak and the GOAT coach, while LeBron had Mo Williams and the immortal Mike Brown. Also, Magic demanding to only play with Kareem and Kobe asking to be traded at the first hint of adversity will never be brought up

3. The weakness of the 2000/2010's East will be held against LeBron and diminish his trips to the Finals, but Magic will receive no criticism for being in the same situation in the '80's West. Magic's Lakers had TWO trips to the Finals without beating a single team with 44 wins

[gts]

1. It's a lot better for your legacy to lose in the first round or miss the playoffs than to make the Finals. Shaq can get swept 6 times, Hakeem can fail to advance past the first round 5 years in a row, but LeBron making 5 Finals and losing 3 times, twice with the inferior team? Completely unacceptable: 2/5 < 1/1

2. LeBron will get criticized for not "sticking through the tough times" with his original team while Magic, Bird, and Kobe will get praised for it. Even though Magic and Bird played on the two most stacked teams of their era and Kobe had the MDE at his absolute peak and the GOAT coach, while LeBron had Mo Williams and the immortal Mike Brown. Also, Magic demanding to only play with Kareem and Kobe asking to be traded at the first hint of adversity will never be brought up

3. The weakness of the 2000/2010's East will be held against LeBron and diminish his trips to the Finals, but Magic will receive no criticism for being in the same situation in the '80's West. Magic's Lakers had TWO trips to the Finals without beating a single team with 44 wins


1: No it's not, that's nonsense, guys take a lot of heat for being first round washouts, certainly a lot more than Lebron has for losing in the finals

2: those above mentioned players didn't promise the city a title then leave, those above mentioned players didn't arrive in their new town and promise not 1 not 2 not... then bolt for a team with a better roster at the first sign his team was aging.. they stuck it out put pressure on management to improve the roster around them

3: Magic and the Lakers went to the finals 9 times and he ended up with a wining record in the finals over the stronger eastern teams, Lebron can easily erase this notation on his legacy by having a winning record

[Eric Cartman]

Being eliminated in the finals is worse than being eliminated in any round prior.

[dunksby]

Anybody mentioned OP is a ****** yet?

[gts]

Being eliminated in the finals is worse than being eliminated in any round prior.

Maybe to idiots that's can't or don't appreciate how hard it is to get to the finals even once..

Anyone can make the first round, over half the league sneaks in, the second round.. meh Conference finals is saying something and the NBA Finals tells us the team was good enough, it was one of the best teams in the league that they belong in the conversation of top teams

[SouBeachTalents]

1: No it's not, that's nonsense, guys take a lot of heat for being first round washouts, certainly a lot more than Lebron has for losing in the finals

2: those above mentioned players didn't promise the city a title then leave, those above mentioned players didn't arrive in their new town and promise not 1 not 2 not... then bolt for a team with a better roster at the first sign his team was aging.. they stuck it out put pressure on management to improve the roster around them

3: Magic and the Lakers went to the finals 9 times and he ended up with a wining record in the finals over the stronger eastern teams, Lebron can easily erase this notation on his legacy by having a winning record

You make valid points, but I honestly disagree about the first one. Is anything else on this site more criticized or brought up as often as LeBron being 2/5?

[gts]

You make valid points, but I honestly disagree about the first one. Is anything else on this site more criticized or brought up as often as LeBron being 2/5?

consider the source of those comments.. effing idiots :lol

edit: I'll add you can't just make a blanket statement, you have to take things in to context, there is no black and white rule to follow...
But like I said it's hard to make it to the finals, the history of the league is littered with really good players that never sniffed the finals once, and we need to appreciate/acknowledge those that have led their team there..

the game is really simple, ball hole, win game or go home.. all this breaking down numbers to the nth degree to raise or lower a players standing/legacy are just a way to kill time or bring more people into the conversation or make those in it feel comfortable talking about players they never even saw play... which is fine

[Straight_Ballin]

#1 in ish logic: LeBron James is the greatest basketball player to ever play because he plays in my era and I never watched Jordan or Kobe play so surely LeBron is GOAT. :lol :lol :lol :hammerhead: :banghead: