"LeBron faced weak competition into the finals. Jordan didn't, 6/6 > 2/5"

[mehyaM24]

why this argument is dumb? below i have a combination of all-star / all-nba selection and metrics(data) that denounces the title in my OP.

all-stars & all-nba teamers ATT, who lebron & jordan faced on their way to the finals:

2007- carter/kidd _ arenas/butler _ hamilton/prince/billups
2011- rose/noah _ kg/pierce/allen/rondo
2012- carmelo/chandler/amare _ kg/pierce/rondo
2013- noah/deng _ george/hibbert/west
2014- jj_ george/west/hibbert

1991- ewing _ barkley/hawkins _ thomas/rodman
1992- ewing _ daughtery/price/nance
1993_ wilkins _ ewing/stars _ daughtery/price/nance

here we see 3 teams jordan faced with just ONE all-nba teamer/all-star. otoh, lebron faced only one team with such a combination, and all but ONE with at least 2 from each category. moreover, lebron has faced one team with 4. jordan didn't.


next up, we see the metrics. here's what today's defensive rating and offensive rating says:

from 2012-14, there were 33 teams with a defensive rating below 103 - 5 teams with a 99 drtg or lower

from 1991-93, there was 1 team with a defensive rating below 103 - the knicks

from 2012-14, there were 13 teams with an offensive rating of 110+
from 1991-93, there 22 teams with an offensive rating of 110+

what do we get from this information? not only are today's defensive schemes and overall TEAM defenses better (holding opponents to less points per 100 possessions - what teams average on each end), but also that nobody played consistent defense during jordan's BEST years (ORtg says more teams in the 90s scored more points per 100 possessions - what teams average on each end). this is ALL you need to know about defenses from THEN and today

[knicksman]

IN math, there is fraction form and decimal form. Once you convert 6/6 and 2/5 to decimal it becomes 1.00 and 0.4. So only dumb people would think 0.4>>1.00. So its really dumb OP.

[mehyaM24]

IN math, there is fraction form and decimal form. Once you convert 6/6 and 2/5 to decimal it becomes 1.00 and 0.4. So only dumb people would think 0.4>>1.00. So its really dumb OP.
read my post, and you'll see WHY making this claim is beyond idiotic & not within context.

[Optimus Prime]

LeBron's "competition" in The Least has been historically among the worst ever. Numbers don't lie.

Oh, and LeBron is 2/5.

:kobe:

[knicksman]

read my post, and you'll see WHY making this claim is beyond idiotic & not within context.

youre asking if its dumb or not, right? So its really dumb, according to math, if you think 6/6 is not greater than 2/5.

[mehyaM24]

youre asking if its dumb or not, right? So its really dumb, according to math, if you think 6/6 is not greater than 2/5.

look at the years i posted in my OP. if that isn't enough to tell you i am not drawing parallels, mathematically, to 6/6 & 2/5, i don't know what to say. :lol

[Chadwin]

How many times did Jordan's teams face .500 or worse teams in the playoffs?

[knicksman]

look at the years i posted in my OP. if that isn't enough to tell you i am not drawing parallels, mathematically, to 6/6 & 2/5, i don't know what to say. :lol

My bad its not dumb. Yeah I agree with you that 6/6 is greater than 2/5

[IncarceratedBob]

People don't understand the notion that 6/6 is better than 6/10 or 6/12.

[mehyaM24]

btw, the only reason i compared these specific seasons was because of their ages.

in 2014, lebron was 29. jordan was 29 in 1993, turning 30 midway into the season (where the comparison stops).

[cruthikai352]

are you missing a few seasons from Jordan on purpose?

[pauk]

People don't understand the notion that 6/6 is better than 6/10 or 6/12.

How exactly is missing playoffs/losing earlier than Finals better?
How exactly does going to 4 or 6 more Finals take ANYTHING away from Jordan?

Please, tell us.... this will be the most extremly interesting yet.... cant wait....

PS: Your comment can be understood in two entirely opposite ways lol, forget this if you meant this in the opposite way.

[knicksman]

How exactly is missing playoffs/losing earlier than Finals better?
How exactly does going to 4 or 6 more Finals take ANYTHING away from Jordan?

Please, tell us.... this will be the most extremly interesting yet.... cant wait....

because 2/5<<6/6

[mehyaM24]

are you missing a few seasons from Jordan on purpose?
read the post above yours. i believe i covered all basis here. the "6/6 > 2/5" in my thread title is merely a retort jordan fans use (just look itt) - but where i drew a connection was noting both jordan & lebron's competition prior to the finals up until last year (same ages).

[Chadwin]

I'm too lazy to do this right now so somebody get me the W/L% of Jordan's playoff opponents and LeBron's.

[mehyaM24]

I'm too lazy to do this right now so somebody get me the W/L% of Jordan's playoff opponents and LeBron's.
irrelevant. lebron's teams in the postseason had a better combination of pace/offensive and defensive rating.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2007.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2012.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html

[pauk]

because 2/5<<6/6

Did you read my comment?

and oh:

2/8 in 68 seasons < 2/5 in 11 seasons

0/0 in last 11 seasons < 2/5 in last 11 seasons

[knicksman]

read the post above yours. i believe i covered all basis here. the "6/6 > 2/5" in my thread title is merely a retort jordan fans use (just look itt) - but where i drew a connection was noting both jordan & lebron's competition prior to the finals up until last year (same ages).

what we care really is result. So let bran improve his 2/5 first before he can be compared through stats and other useless criteria.

[knicksman]

Did you read my comment?

and oh:

2/8 in 68 seasons < 2/5 in 11 seasons

yup.. and it translates to 2/5<<6/6

[pauk]

yup.. and it translates to 2/5<<6/6

2/8/68


http://nsa34.casimages.com/img/2013/05/10/130510013209792090.png

[knicksman]

2/8/68

:oldlol: 2/5

[Chadwin]

average NRtg for Lebron's playoff competition in the Heat years: 3.063

average NRtg for Jordan's playoff competition the first 4 seasons he made the Finals: 3.163

GOAT still gonna GOAT:bowdown:

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

And how many 50+ win teams did each guy beat?

Conveniently ignored point.

[Sarcastic]

And how many 50+ win teams did each guy beat?

Conveniently ignored point.


Better yet, how many 60 win teams did each guy beat?

[Roundball_Rock]

And how many 50+ win teams did each guy beat?

Conveniently ignored point.

More interesting would be the W-L difference between their teams and the teams they beat. Beating a 60 win team sounds great...until you consider his team won 12 more games.

[Blue&Orange]

all-stars & all-nba teamers ATT, who lebron & jordan faced on their way to the finals:

can you seriously be this stupid?

[Roundball_Rock]

FWIW, win differentials for the ECF:

1989: DET +16.
1990: DET +4.
1991: CHI +11.
1992: CHI +10.
1993: NY +3.
1996: CHI +12.
1997: CHI +8.
1998: CHI +4.

2007: DET +3.
2009: CLE +7.
2011: CHI +4.
2012: MIA +7.
2013: MIA +17.
2014: IND +2.

So when they won LeBron's team had the better record in two out of five ECF's. When Jordan won his team had the better record in five of six ECF's--three times by double digit margins.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

FWIW, win differentials for the ECF:

1989: DET +16.
1990: DET +4.
1991: CHI +11.
1992: CHI +10.
1993: NY +3.
1996: CHI +12.
1997: CHI +8.
1998: CHI +4.

2007: DET +3.
2009: CLE +7.
2011: CHI +4.
2012: MIA +7.
2013: MIA +17.
2014: IND +2.

So when they won LeBron's team had the better record in two out of five ECF's. When Jordan won his team had the better record in five of six ECF's--three times by double digit margins.

Yet these same parameters mean something else when we talk about how Jordan had to play historically great teams like the '86 Celtics in the first round. Then Jordan gets derided for going 1-9 without Pippen. Even you and mehya bring up "1-9" like it means something. Forgetting about how the Bulls were a 50+ win team BEFORE Pippen hit his stride in 90-91. But that's beside the point.

Don't know why we ONLY include the ECF, lol. Do the playoffs start there? Heck no. Jordan beat the Knicks and the Cavs before the ECF, both 50+ win teams. He also won 3 times in the finals w/o homecourt advantage.

When you compare the number of 50 win teams each guy beat, it's no contest. That also doesn't mean as much without examining the contest, I'll concede that, but the discrepancy sounds pretty damning, doesn't it?

[mehyaM24]

FWIW, win differentials for the ECF:

1989: DET +16.
1990: DET +4.
1991: CHI +11.
1992: CHI +10.
1993: NY +3.
1996: CHI +12.
1997: CHI +8.
1998: CHI +4.

2007: DET +3.
2009: CLE +7.
2011: CHI +4.
2012: MIA +7.
2013: MIA +17.
2014: IND +2.

So when they won LeBron's team had the better record in two out of five ECF's. When Jordan won his team had the better record in five of six ECF's--three times by double digit margins.

good post. along with this, teams that lebron faced had a fairly better combination of pace/offensive & defensive rating.

its akin to posters saying "jordan dominated top 5 defenses. lebron did not!" - well, no, jordan's "top 5 defenses" were less efficient in effectively limiting their opponents' scoring per possession.

[Sarcastic]

More interesting would be the W-L difference between their teams and the teams they beat. Beating a 60 win team sounds great...until you consider his team won 12 more games.


Pretty sure the Bulls beat 60 win teams outside of 1996.

[Elosha]

More interesting would be the W-L difference between their teams and the teams they beat. Beating a 60 win team sounds great...until you consider his team won 12 more games.


Oh I get it! We need to penalize Jordan for being the MVP on the 72-10 Bulls. It's not fair to Lebron that Jordan was the catalyst for the greatest regular season in NBA history and thus "12 more games" better than the Sonics. :rolleyes:

Also you should get your facts straight. The 96 Sonics won a franchise record 64 games, not 60. So it's an 8 game W-L difference, not that it matters.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pretty sure the Bulls beat 60 win teams outside of 1996.

Obviously. My point was you have to look at the other side of the coin and assess the relative balance between the two teams. It is foolish to boast about a player beating a 60 win team when his team won 72 games. How is that different than a 56 win team beating a 44 win team?


Don't know why we ONLY include the ECF, lol.

I was too lazy to look everything up so I looked at the ECF just to see how the data looked. I may revisit this and look at their entire Finals runs later.


Jordan beat the Knicks and the Cavs before the ECF, both 50+ win teams.

Yes, the 51 win Knicks with the 67 win Bulls in the 92' ECSF and the 54 win Cavs versus the 57 win Bulls in the 93' ECSF. Keep in mind the Bulls without Jordan faced those two teams yet again in 94'. They swept the Cavs for the second consecutive year (so CLE went 2-11 against CHI from 1992-1994) and they fought the Knicks to a draw. Can you imagine the Heat battling the Pacers to a draw without LeBron or the 07' Cavs sweeping the Wizards without LeBron? It is easier to beat a 60 win team when your team with a D-Leaguer in your place is equal to said team the following year, no?


When you compare the number of 50 win teams each guy beat, it's no contest. That also doesn't mean as much without examining the contest, I'll concede that, but the discrepancy sounds pretty damning, doesn't it?

I think it is pretty clear, even if people will not want to concede these points, that 1) Jordan beat opponents who were tougher in a vacuum 2) Jordan's teams were superior to LeBron's. My question is what kind of relative superiority did each have in those series? I don't know the answer, although the ECF data suggests Jordan's teams had a greater supremacy over their opponents than LeBron's teams did. Still, that is just one of four rounds so maybe the data look different if you look at every round.




its akin to posters saying "jordan dominated top 5 defenses. lebron did not!" - well, no, jordan's "top 5 defenses" were less efficient in effectively limiting their opponents' scoring per possession.

The problem with Jordan mythologists is they will present conveniently chosen facts without any context.


Also you should get your facts straight. The 96 Sonics won a franchise record 64 games, not 60. So it's an 8 game W-L difference, not that it matters

I need to get my facts straight? The Sonics were not in the 96' ECF.

[Asukal]

I stopped reading when OP started comparing defensive ratings across eras. But I knew he is a dumbass so.... :confusedshrug:

[mehyaM24]

I stopped reading when OP started comparing defensive ratings across eras. But I knew he is a dumbass so.... :confusedshrug:
nice irony.

anyway, jordan fans have NO problem comparing raw stats and championships across eras....so? :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

Here are the win differentials for the NBA finals:

1991: CHI +3
1992: CHI +10
1993: PHX +5
1996: CHI +8
1997: CHI +5
1998: equal records


2007: SAS +8
2011: MIA +1
2012: OKC +1
2013: MIA +8
2014: SAS +8

So LeBron's teams have had an inferior record in three out of his five Finals. Jordan's teams had a superior record in four Finals and an equal record in another. Only once did his team have the worse record. Not surprisingly the teams were closer in the Finals than they were in the ECF's.

[nba_55]

nice irony.

anyway, jordan fans have NO problem comparing raw stats and championships across eras....so? :confusedshrug:
:applause: :applause: :applause:
Double standards

[Asukal]

nice irony.

anyway, jordan fans have NO problem comparing raw stats and championships across eras....so? :confusedshrug:

All your arguments against the GOAT=weak sauce. :whatever:

Fck bran, most overrated ring chasing flopping diva piece of shit player ever. Go back to fapping to his stats kid. :oldlol:

[Elosha]

I need to get my facts straight? The Sonics were not in the 96' ECF.

Oh yes, now I see you were talking about 96 ECF only. Point still stands, why in the world would we penalize Jordan for the 72-10 record in 1996? They beat a 60 and 64 win team back to back. How many times has Lebron done that? Yet we should "downgrade" Jordan's 60 win ECF competition, (Orlando with Shaq and Hardaway), simply because Jordan's Bulls won 72 games and had a 12 game W-L difference?

You're a decent poster, but you can do way better than that. Sorry that type of logic just reeks of bias.

[Roundball_Rock]

How can we assess competition without looking at the other side of the equation? :confusedshrug: Is beating a 53 win team when your team is a 65 win team more impressive than your 56 win team beating a 48 win team? Is there a greater degree of difficulty in scenario 1?

I think it is pretty clear Jordan's opponents were stronger in a vacuum but it also is clear that Jordan's teams were superior relative to LeBron's. I do not know what the data would show for how the relative supremacy shakes out between Jordan's greater teams and LeBron's weaker opponents. Jordan fans just throw out "50 win teams!" without mentioning MJ's teams were winning 72, 69, 67 games. :oldlol:

[Asukal]

Oh yes, now I see you were talking about 96 ECF only. Point still stands, why in the world would we penalize Jordan for the 72-10 record in 1996? They beat a 60 and 64 win team back to back. How many times has Lebron done that? Yet we should "downgrade" Jordan's 60 win ECF competition, (Orlando with Shaq and Hardaway), simply because Jordan's Bulls won 72 games and had a 12 game W-L difference?

You're a decent poster, but you can do way better than that. Sorry that type of logic just reeks of bias.

:biggums:

:oldlol: :lol :roll: :applause:

[Asukal]

How can we assess competition without looking at the other side of the equation? :confusedshrug: Is beating a 53 win team when your team is a 65 win team more impressive than your 56 win team beating a 48 win team? Is there a greater degree of difficulty in scenario 1?

I think it is pretty clear Jordan's opponents were stronger in a vacuum but it also is clear that Jordan's teams were superior relative to LeBron's. I do not know what the data would show for how the relative supremacy shakes out between Jordan's greater teams and LeBron's weaker opponents. Jordan fans just throw out "50 win teams!" without mentioning MJ's teams were winning 72, 69, 67 games. :oldlol:

And that is why Jordan is a better leader than POS bran. What you think those bulls teams just won all those games by themselves? :confusedshrug:

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

I was too lazy to look everything up so I looked at the ECF just to see how the data looked. I may revisit this and look at their entire Finals runs later.

Yes, the 51 win Knicks with the 67 win Bulls in the 92' ECSF and the 54 win Cavs versus the 57 win Bulls in the 93' ECSF. Keep in mind the Bulls without Jordan faced those two teams yet again in 94'. They swept the Cavs for the second consecutive year (so CLE went 2-11 against CHI from 1992-1994) and they fought the Knicks to a draw. Can you imagine the Heat battling the Pacers to a draw without LeBron or the 07' Cavs sweeping the Wizards without LeBron? It is easier to beat a 60 win team when your team with a D-Leaguer in your place is equal to said team the following year, no?

How about the 47 win Bulls vs the 57 win Cavs and 52 win Knicks in '89? How's that for relative strength? The Cavs swept the Bulls that year in the regular season, too.

As for the "Jordan was replaced by Pete Myers" thing, well, we've been down that road before. We spent an entire thread talking about that. The '94 Bulls were a 51 win team by Pythagorean w-l, the '93 Bulls were a 58 win team by that same measure. The '93 Bulls coasted throughout the RS. The '94 Bulls were driven like never before. The '93 Bulls won the championship despite Pippen and Grant having worse stats than they did the following year. The '94 Bulls lost to the Knicks, despite Pippen having his best year and Grant his second best year. Above all, Pete Myers wasn't the only player they brought in to fill the void -- for the sake of being intellectually honest, why omit the fact that they also bolstered their roster by bringing in one of the best 3pt shooters of all time and an elite 6th man that would be a starter on just about any other team? You might not agree that they helped them that much -- fair enough. But at least include them. LORD KNOWS they were more important acquisitions than PETE MYERS. Im sure you agree with that.

By saying "omgosh they replaced Jordan with Pete Myers and were almost as good" you're ignoring context as flippantly as some of the Jordan fans you've been combating. Again, you're better than this :cheers:


I think it is pretty clear, even if people will not want to concede these points, that 1) Jordan beat opponents who were tougher in a vacuum 2) Jordan's teams were superior to LeBron's. My question is what kind of relative superiority did each have in those series? I don't know the answer, although the ECF data suggests Jordan's teams had a greater supremacy over their opponents than LeBron's teams did. Still, that is just one of four rounds so maybe the data look different if you look at every round.

Cool, good enough for me....probably better to post ALL of the data then, instead of little snippets, right? Otherwise we can just twist it to accommodate whatever agenda we may have.

[knicksman]

damn take this 2/5 bran stans

[tpols]

Oh yes, now I see you were talking about 96 ECF only. Point still stands, why in the world would we penalize Jordan for the 72-10 record in 1996? They beat a 60 and 64 win team back to back. How many times has Lebron done that? Yet we should "downgrade" Jordan's 60 win ECF competition, (Orlando with Shaq and Hardaway), simply because Jordan's Bulls won 72 games and had a 12 game W-L difference?

You're a decent poster, but you can do way better than that. Sorry that type of logic just reeks of bias.

Lebron and MJ's opponent strength relative to team strength in eastern conference is...

Jordan (89-93, 96-98) = +265 wins
Lebron (07-14) = +202 wins

Overall...

Jordan= +265 wins
Lebron= +194 wins


The key thing to notice is that Jordan won everytime he was expected to. In '89 and '90 his teams lost.. but they were an average -11 to the teams that they faced. Once they secured a positive differential in '91.. they never lost.

Lebron on the other hand had a combined +76 win differential from '07 to '10 and he lost every single year. Lebron had a +14 differential in 2011 and he lost... He had a +11 differential in 2014 and again.. he lost.


So while Jordans teams were better relative to competition.. whenever they were expected to win, they won. Lebrons teams on the other hand were a total crapshoot to whether they would win or not with a positive differential. Half the time he would lead the team to great records but choke/quit and the other half he would prevail.

Lebron was one shot away from losing with a +74 win differential in 2013. :eek: :eek:

Thats fking insane.

[supernova5912]

How can we assess competition without looking at the other side of the equation? :confusedshrug: Is beating a 53 win team when your team is a 65 win team more impressive than your 56 win team beating a 48 win team? Is there a greater degree of difficulty in scenario 1?

I think it is pretty clear Jordan's opponents were stronger in a vacuum but it also is clear that Jordan's teams were superior relative to LeBron's. I do not know what the data would show for how the relative supremacy shakes out between Jordan's greater teams and LeBron's weaker opponents. Jordan fans just throw out "50 win teams!" without mentioning MJ's teams were winning 72, 69, 67 games. :oldlol:

Jordan played in much tougher era. Not sure what you're trying to say but Jordan's Bulls playoff wins is more impressive the Heat's playoff wins. For example, Jordan's 69-13 Bulls team beating a 61-21 Heat team is more impressive than LeBron's 66-16 team beating a 49-32 Pacers team in the Conference Finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

year. Above all, Pete Myers wasn't the only player they brought in to fill the void -- for the sake of being intellectually honest, why omit the fact that they also bolstered their roster by bringing in one of the best 3pt shooters of all time and an elite 6th man that would be a starter on just about any other team? You might not agree that they helped them that much -- fair enough. But at least include them. LORD KNOWS they were more important acquisitions than PETE MYERS. Im sure you agree with that.


Sure. When people, other than trolls, bring up 94' it is to illustrate how strong that core was, not to claim that they did not miss a beat without MJ. They did decline for sure. Who else, though, in the top 10 all-time has had a core that strong? There is no one else who left a team, whether due to retirement, injury, or free agency and still had his team perform at that high a level. People will claim Team X or Team Y "could" have done so but there is no other instance of a team actually doing it.

What you said is true but on the other side of the coin the 94' team was not as healthy as the 93' team. Cartwright missed half the season, Pippen 10 games and Grant 13 games. When Pippen and Grant played they were on a 63 win pace.

Compare all this to LeBron's teams without him. The Heat are a 35 win team, down from 54 wins and the Finals last year. The Cavs would be lucky to win 20 without LeBron in any year during his first stint there. These things have to be factored in when assessing their respective team achievements. The problem is we keep being presented with team achievements without any context. Jordan was like Russell: a GOAT-caliber player on the best team. Put Wilt or LeBron or KAJ on the Bulls or Celtics and their team achievements would look better (well, KAJ did have a stacked team late in his career--I am speaking of prime KAJ). Yeah, MJ beat a lot of 50 win teams (with their best player--could the Knicks win 55 without Ewing or the Suns without Barkley?) but his team without him was a 50+ win team--something that cannot be said about LeBron's squads.


Cool, good enough for me....probably better to post ALL of the data then, instead of little snippets, right? Otherwise we can just twist it to accommodate whatever agenda we may have.


Yeah. I just don't know what years I will include. Just their Finals years or 1989-1993/1996-1998 for MJ and 2007-2014 for LeBron.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Here are the win differentials for the NBA finals:

1991: CHI +3
1992: CHI +10
1993: PHX +5
1996: CHI +8
1997: CHI +5
1998: equal records


2007: SAS +8
2011: MIA +1
2012: OKC +1
2013: MIA +8
2014: SAS +8

So LeBron's teams have had an inferior record in three out of his five Finals. Jordan's teams had a superior record in four Finals and an equal record in another. Only once did his team have the worse record. Not surprisingly the teams were closer in the Finals than they were in the ECF's.

And there's a ying to that yang, too: the Bulls were 3/3 in the finals when they DIDNT have homecourt advantage. LeBrons teams were 1/3.

That has to count for something, no?

Additionally, the Thunder might won 1 more game than the Heat in 2012, but it was practically the same as the Bulls-Jazz identical records in '98: the Jazz and the Thunder had HCA. So saying "b b b but Jordan's teams had the better or equal record in 4 of 6 finals, LeBrons teams in 2 out of 5", is true yet misleading given the point you're trying to make.

Given the Thunder and Jazz being equal to the Bulls and Heat on paper (with only one game separating the Thunder and Heat) AND the Jazz having HCA just like the Thunder did, wouldn't it be more logical to look at it from this perspective: Jordan's Bulls had HCA in 3/6 finals. LeBrons Heat and Cavs teams had HCA in 2/5 finals.

Less distortive, right?


And finally, Jordan's Bulls were 3/3 when they HAD homecourt advantage, LeBrons teams 1/2. All 3 of the Bulls' series wins not going to a decisive game. Whereas in the case of LeBrons teams, his 66 win team beat a 58 win team (tables are turned ;) ) by the skin of their teeth, and lost by double digits in 6 games of 2011. So that means: strictly talking finals, Jordan's teams were better frontrunners AND better when they had the disadvantage of playing 4/7 on the road.

[tpols]

And there's a ying to that yang, too: the Bulls were 3/3 in the finals when they DIDNT have homecourt advantage. LeBrons teams were 1/3.

That has to count for something, no?

Additionally, the Thunder might won 1 more game than the Heat in 2012, but it was practically the same as the Bulls-Jazz identical records in '98: the Jazz and the Thunder had HCA. So saying "b b b but Jordan's teams had the better or equal record in 4 of 6 finals, LeBrons teams in 2 out of 5", is true yet misleading given the point you're trying to make.

Given the Thunder and Jazz being equal to the Bulls and Heat on paper (with only one game separating the Thunder and Heat) AND the Jazz having HCA just like the Thunder did, wouldn't it be more logical to look at it from this perspective: Jordan's Bulls had HCA in 3/6 finals. LeBrons Heat and Cavs teams had HCA in 2/5 finals.

Less distortive, right?


And finally, Jordan's Bulls were 3/3 when they HAD homecourt advantage, LeBrons teams 1/2. All 3 of the Bulls' series wins not going to a decisive game. Whereas in the case of LeBrons teams, his 66 win team beat a 58 win team (tables are turned ;) ) by the skin of their teeth, and lost by double digits in 6 games of 2011. So that means: strictly talking finals, Jordan's teams were better frontrunners AND better when they had the disadvantage of playing 4/7 on the road.

If you look at the win differentials overall..

Lebron with a total playoff positive win differential ie expected to win, was 2/7..
Jordan was 6/7.


6/7 >>> 2/7.

[Roundball_Rock]

So saying "b b b but Jordan's teams had the better or equal record in 4 of 6 finals, LeBrons teams in 2 out of 5", is true yet misleading given the point you're trying to make.

Yes but I had to use the same standards. I counted 11' as a case where LeBron's team had a better record even though it was by one game, just as their deficit was only 1 game in 12'. This was just stuff I pulled together on the fly. I didn't do any real commentary. In my other post I will do so. For example, what is more relevant is in two of his Finals LeBron's teams won 8 less games and in another they won 8 more. In Jordan's case the two Finals with a large disparity were 92' and 96'.


So that means: strictly talking finals, Jordan's teams were better frontrunners AND better when they had the disadvantage of playing 4/7 on the road.

Correct. Jordan's teams clearly performed better in the Finals. As you can see, the gaps between his teams and his opponents as well as with LeBron and LeBron's opponents was not large when you look at their Finals in the aggregate. It is in the ECF where the gap is greater and I suspect it is greater still in the ECSF. For the Finals, LeBron fans can't really cite team inferiority, other than in 07' and 14'. In 11' and 13' the Heat underachieved, in one case despite significant superiority and in the other because the teams were at parity yet the Heat did pretty poorly in the Finals. Jordan's teams, outside of 91', did the same in every Final irrespective of team records or HCA: 6 game victories.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Sure. When people, other than trolls, bring up 94' it is to illustrate how strong that core was, not to claim that they did not miss a beat without MJ.

Exactly.

But when you insinuate that they brought in Myers and poof, it was a 55 win team, it DOES ignore the context of the situation. Stripped down to their barest forms, yes, the '93 Bulls were a 57 win team in the regular season and the '94 Bulls were a 55 win team in the regular season. But in a thread of this nature, ignoring all of the factors surrounding those two teams and the subtleties of both seasons, it just opens the door for more mudslinging and convoluted doublespeak.

Saying "they replaced Jordan with Pete myers" as if its even a relevant talking point just belies the truth and we both know it.

[Roundball_Rock]

Myers is brought up to note the Bulls failed to find a legitimate replacement for MJ because all the free agents were signed by October. This is brought up because that is another unique aspect of that case. When Shaq left Orlando they signed Rony Seiklay. The Heat got Deng to replace LeBron*. When Bird went down Reggie Lewis took his place. And so on. Only in the 94' Bulls case, since MJ retired at the last minute and there were no good free agent SG's available (Myers was slated to get cut before MJ retired...) and because they lacked a solid SG waiting in the wings a la Lewis, did they have a complete blank as a starter. So yeah their bench improved with Kukoc and Kerr but they did have an unusual hole at their starting SG spot. If you put a legitimate starting SG on that team like Hornacek they win more than 55 games, in theory.

So "55 wins" itself is misleading given that roster construction. That is what they did with a substantial roster flaw, not their peak performance level (which is always what MJ stans suggest, with no acknowledgement of the hole at SG and their injury woes). They did plug that hole with Harper the following year but lost Grant. In 96' they filled the PF hole with Rodman. In an alternate universe where MJ does not return, that same 94' core with Rodman and Harper are contenders. With a legitimate starting 5 and without their best players missing 22 games and another starter half the season the team surely would win more than 55.

*Imagine the 15' Heat without Deng. :lol

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Yes but I had to use the same standards. I counted 11' as a case where LeBron's team had a better record even though it was by one game, just as their deficit was only 1 game in 12'. This was just stuff I pulled together on the fly. I didn't do any real commentary. In my other post I will do so. For example, what is more relevant is in two of his Finals LeBron's teams won 8 less games and in another they won 8 more. In Jordan's case the two Finals with a large disparity were 92' and 96'.



All the commentary in the world will only narrow the finals gap by infinitesimally small margins at best. At the end of the day, Jordan's teams won 3/3 times without HCA and 3/3 times with HCA. For LeBron it was 1/3 and 1/2.

I get what you're doing. You're arguing for LeBron because you dont think hes being given a fair shake. Nothing wrong with that, but dont constantly act like its a one-way street. BOTH fan groups are throwing out hyperbolic statements. Its their m

[Bigsmoke]

Might as well say LeBron ruined his legacy by reaching the Finals in 2007 instead of getting knocked out in the 2nd or 3rd round.

[LAZERUSS]

Might as well say LeBron ruined his legacy by reaching the Finals in 2007 instead of getting knocked out in the 2nd or 3rd round.

Yep...he should have pulled a "Hakeem" and just settled for getting routed in the first round in over half of his post-season career.

Hakeem..."mr. 2/3"

[Droid101]

bran is shit.

[Lebron23]

bran is shit.


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6s0fu9fsJ1rpga6zo1_400.jpg

[Bigsmoke]

Yep...he should have pulled a "Hakeem" and just settled for getting routed in the first round in over half of his post-season career.

Hakeem..."mr. 2/3"

Nobody expect a 22 year old to win over the Spurs with a very subpar team coached by Mike Brown of all people. The fact he made it that far should be an accomplishments.

[Droid101]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6s0fu9fsJ1rpga6zo1_400.jpg
I'M SO MAD! GRARR!

[LAZERUSS]

Nobody expect a 22 year old to win over the Spurs with a very subpar team coached by Mike Brown of all people. The fact he made it that far should be an accomplishments.

And I wasn't arguing with you.

Yet, the idiots here claim that 2/3 is greater than 2/5 (or 2/6.)

They consider getting routed in the first round eight times, in 15 post-seasons, as a better accomplishment than losing three times in the Finals, in 11 seasons.

[tpols]

And I wasn't arguing with you.

Yet, the idiots here claim that 2/3 is greater than 2/5 (or 2/6.)

They consider getting routed in the first round eight times, in 15 post-seasons, as a better accomplishment than losing three times in the Finals, in 11 seasons.

Every single team Hakeem has ever lost to... had HCA and a positive win differential to his rockets. The ONLY year of hakeems prime his team had a positive playoff win differential.. they won the championship. And then the very next year Hakeem led his team to a ring with a massive negative win differential and no HCA at all! That's something even Jordan could never do.

Comparing hakeems help/competition is fking retarded. Not only did LeBron hand pick more stacked squads.. He faced worse teams and competed in a weaker conference.

[guy]

why this argument is dumb? below i have a combination of all-star / all-nba selection and metrics(data) that denounces the title in my OP.

all-stars & all-nba teamers ATT, who lebron & jordan faced on their way to the finals:

2007- carter/kidd _ arenas/butler _ hamilton/prince/billups
2011- rose/noah _ kg/pierce/allen/rondo
2012- carmelo/chandler/amare _ kg/pierce/rondo
2013- noah/deng _ george/hibbert/west
2014- jj_ george/west/hibbert

1991- ewing _ barkley/hawkins _ thomas/rodman
1992- ewing _ daughtery/price/nance
1993_ wilkins _ ewing/stars _ daughtery/price/nance

here we see 3 teams jordan faced with just ONE all-nba teamer/all-star. otoh, lebron faced only one team with such a combination, and all but ONE with at least 2 from each category. moreover, lebron has faced one team with 4. jordan didn't.


next up, we see the metrics. here's what today's defensive rating and offensive rating says:

from 2012-14, there were 33 teams with a defensive rating below 103 - 5 teams with a 99 drtg or lower

from 1991-93, there was 1 team with a defensive rating below 103 - the knicks

from 2012-14, there were 13 teams with an offensive rating of 110+
from 1991-93, there 22 teams with an offensive rating of 110+

what do we get from this information? not only are today's defensive schemes and overall TEAM defenses better (holding opponents to less points per 100 possessions - what teams average on each end), but also that nobody played consistent defense during jordan's BEST years (ORtg says more teams in the 90s scored more points per 100 possessions - what teams average on each end). this is ALL you need to know about defenses from THEN and today

Ummm a number of those players weren't all stars/all nba team players in the seasons you mentioned. Keep trying :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

The 2014, 2013, and even 2012 competition in the Eastern Conference was shit. Boston's defense in 2012 was legit, but in terms of overall quality they had become a shell of what they were. Both runs were made slightly more difficult with health issues plauging Bosh, and Wade in consecutive post seasons but given their overall stackedness to the rest of the comp, it didn't really matter.

[LAZERUSS]

Every single team Hakeem has ever lost to... had HCA and a positive win differential to his rockets. The ONLY year of hakeems prime his team had a positive playoff win differential.. they won the championship. And then the very next year Harlem led his team to a ring with a massive negative win differential and no HCA at all! That's something even Jordan could never do.

Comparing hakeems help/competition is fking retarded. Not only did LeBron hand pick more stacked squads.. He faced worse teams and competed in a weaker conference.

You are completely wrong my friend.

Hakeem lost in the first round to a lessor opponent in '85; and to a 39-43 team in the second round in '87; and to the lower-seeded Sonics in '93.

And he certainly didn't beat any great teams in '94, either.

And again, he seldom carried his rosters, whether good or bad, past the first round.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ummm a number of those players weren't all stars/all nba team players in the seasons you mentioned. Keep trying :oldlol:
David West was neither an all-star or all-nba caliber during those seasons. In other words, OP has a room temperature IQ. Seriously, I don't I've seen someone reach harder than this f*cking clown. :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

West was neither an all-star or all-nba guy... In other words, the OP has a room temperature IQ. Seriously, I don't I've seen someone reach harder than this f*cking clown. :oldlol:
Well he is an attention seeking troll. His name is mayhem spelled backwards afterall.

[TheMan]

And how many 50+ win teams did each guy beat?

Conveniently ignored point.
I'll pretend I'm mehyaM24..."irrelevant because it doesn't fit my agenda"...:oldlol:

[Bigsmoke]

Every single team Hakeem has ever lost to... had HCA and a positive win differential to his rockets. The ONLY year of hakeems prime his team had a positive playoff win differential.. they won the championship. And then the very next year Hakeem led his team to a ring with a massive negative win differential and no HCA at all! That's something even Jordan could never do.

Comparing hakeems help/competition is fking retarded. Not only did LeBron hand pick more stacked squads.. He faced worse teams and competed in a weaker conference.

That's the point of winning regular season. To get home court and to avoid playing tougher teams in the first round. Hakeem was put in those positions and failed.

The point is that we still honor Hakeem despite his failures but why don't we share the same the same respect towards LeBron when Lebron is better and achieved more?

[TheMan]

How can we assess competition without looking at the other side of the equation? :confusedshrug: Is beating a 53 win team when your team is a 65 win team more impressive than your 56 win team beating a 48 win team? Is there a greater degree of difficulty in scenario 1?

I think it is pretty clear Jordan's opponents were stronger in a vacuum but it also is clear that Jordan's teams were superior relative to LeBron's. I do not know what the data would show for how the relative supremacy shakes out between Jordan's greater teams and LeBron's weaker opponents. Jordan fans just throw out "50 win teams!" without mentioning MJ's teams were winning 72, 69, 67 games. :oldlol:
Lol, dude you're getting crazier by the day, MJ got you shook so bad...now we are penalizing MJ for leading the Bulls to better records than his opponents:biggums:

You used to critsize MJ for NOT leading the Bulls to better records in his first few years in the league :confusedshrug:

Make up your mindor is that bias making you retarded?

[TheMan]

Lebron and MJ's opponent strength relative to team strength in eastern conference is...

Jordan (89-93, 96-98) = +265 wins
Lebron (07-14) = +202 wins

Overall...

Jordan= +265 wins
Lebron= +194 wins


The key thing to notice is that Jordan won everytime he was expected to. In '89 and '90 his teams lost.. but they were an average -11 to the teams that they faced. Once they secured a positive differential in '91.. they never lost.

Lebron on the other hand had a combined +76 win differential from '07 to '10 and he lost every single year. Lebron had a +14 differential in 2011 and he lost... He had a +11 differential in 2014 and again.. he lost.


So while Jordans teams were better relative to competition.. whenever they were expected to win, they won. Lebrons teams on the other hand were a total crapshoot to whether they would win or not with a positive differential. Half the time he would lead the team to great records but choke/quit and the other half he would prevail.

Lebron was one shot away from losing with a +74 win differential in 2013. :eek: :eek:

Thats fking insane.
Wow, great post...of course the LeStans will ignore this

[tpols]

You are completely wrong my friend.

Hakeem lost in the first round to a lessor opponent in '85; and to a 39-43 team in the second round in '87; and to the lower-seeded Sonics in '93.

And he certainly didn't beat any great teams in '94, either.

And again, he seldom carried his rosters, whether good or bad, past the first round.

Hakeem was a rookie in '85.. I said in his prime.. No one holds rookie seasons against players. It's absurd.

In 93 the Sonics had the same amount of wins as the rockets both 55.. that's a toss up and Houston did not have a positive differential. it was a push..

In 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 95, and 96 Hakeem had a negative win differential in the playoffs.. simply put they faced teams with much better records in almost every year. 94 and 93 were the only exceptions.


Prime LeBron on the other hand had a positive playoff differential in 07, 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 with negative differentials only in 2008. His team's nearly always had better records than the playoff opponents they faced on average.


It is YOU who are completely wrong my friend. Hakeem has a much better record with the few good teams he had relative to competition and he has even dominated won a ring with a bigger negative differential than LeBron ever had in his career.

[houston]

Yep...he should have pulled a "Hakeem" and just settled for getting routed in the first round in over half of his post-season career.

Hakeem..."mr. 2/3"


:roll: funny

[andgar923]

Lol, dude you're getting crazier by the day, MJ got you shook so bad...now we are penalizing MJ for leading the Bulls to better records than his opponents:biggums:

You used to critsize MJ for NOT leading the Bulls to better records in his first few years in the league :confusedshrug:

Make up your mindor is that bias making you retarded?

Results of inbreeding I suppose:confusedshrug:

[knicksman]

Lol, dude you're getting crazier by the day, MJ got you shook so bad...now we are penalizing MJ for leading the Bulls to better records than his opponents:biggums:

You used to critsize MJ for NOT leading the Bulls to better records in his first few years in the league :confusedshrug:

Make up your mindor is that bias making you retarded?

2/5 had him shook so bad.

[sportjames23]

You ever see an OP get bodybagged in his own thread as much as meyha? :oldlol:

[sportjames23]

Lol, dude you're getting crazier by the day, MJ got you shook so bad...now we are penalizing MJ for leading the Bulls to better records than his opponents:biggums:

You used to critsize MJ for NOT leading the Bulls to better records in his first few years in the league :confusedshrug:

Make up your mindor is that bias making you retarded?


He twists himself in so many knots trying to shit on MJ. :oldlol:

Again, I can't understand how any fan of a team can hate on its greatest player. Then again, I do see some Lakers fans do the same to Magic when he criticizes the Lakers.

[TheMan]

Another thing that Roundball Rock is arguing is that while LeBron's competition is weaker than Jordan's, LeBron's teams was also weaker than Jordan's team so...


He's basically calling this era weaker than MJ's...I knew he'd one day see the light. We've been saying for the longest time that the current NBA is weak compared to the 80's and 90's and RR just admitted it too, MJ's title teams were superior to LeBron's and MJ's competition was superior to LeBron's. :applause:

It's all there in the previous page in this thread. Now if only the rest of the LeBron family just came out and admitted too but they won't because they're trolls.

[sportjames23]

Another thing that Roundball Rock is arguing is that while LeBron's competition is weaker than Jordan's, LeBron's teams was also weaker than Jordan's team so...


He's basically calling this era weaker than MJ's...I knew he'd one day see the light. We've been saying for the longest time that the current NBA is weak compared to the 80's and 90's and RR just admitted it too, MJ's title teams were superior to LeBron's and MJ's competition was superior to LeBron's. :applause:

It's all there in the previous page in this thread. Now if only the rest of the LeBron family just came out and admitted too but they won't because they're trolls.


He keep twisting them knots, don't he? :oldlol:

[TheMan]

He keep twisting them knots, don't he? :oldlol:
Yeah, anything to take as much shine away from the GOAT as possible and in doing so, actually makes MJ look good inadvertently...it's a plus to admit MJ's title teams were superior along with the foes he defeated :oldlol:

More than a decade after he retired for good MJ still got 'em shook :cheers:

[Mikebball1]

lebron didnt :biggums: