Is "Lebron ball" an insult or a compliment? Explain.

[CavaliersFTW]

^ Thread title.

I hear "Lebron ball" used by a variety of posters. Is it a good thing or a bad thing, and how so?

[edrick]

Lebron ball looks awful when your guards can't make shit all game.

[STATUTORY]

insult or compliment to who?

[SouBeachTalents]

It's almost always used in a negative context

[kshutts1]

Interesting you made this post today.

Just yesterday I was driving in to work and thinking about how the greats have changed the game and thus enhanced their legacy.

Did Lebron change the way the game is played by being so incredibly unselfish? I'm sure this was happening before Lebron, but I feel like the league didn't start going to the "efficiency is king" argument until Lebron came along, and proved that "hero ball" is not the only way to win.

[MP.Trey]

It's good in game 5 of the 2007 ECF. It's bad in games like tonight where he's 2/7 at the line.

[TheMarkMadsen]

It's when a player dribbles the ball for 20 seconds at the top of the perimeter and then drives for an attempted lay up or kick out.

[CavaliersFTW]

Interesting you made this post today.

Just yesterday I was driving in to work and thinking about how the greats have changed the game and thus enhanced their legacy.

Did Lebron change the way the game is played by being so incredibly unselfish? I'm sure this was happening before Lebron, but I feel like the league didn't start going to the "efficiency is king" argument until Lebron came along, and proved that "hero ball" is not the only way to win.
Magic and Bird did a similar thing in the early 80's

In the 60's Russell and Wilt made the league think you needed to build teams with "a dominant center"

Jordan's impact made hero ball popular for a while in the 90's and early '00's

[bdreason]

In the regular season it's fine. In a 7 game series? The last thing you want is for your offense to be predictable.

[AirBourne92]

well it's the opposite of team ball so what do you think

[kshutts1]

Magic and Bird did a similar thing in the early 80's

In the 60's Russell and Wilt made the league think you needed to build teams with "a dominant center"

Jordan's impact made hero ball popular for a while in the 90's and early '00's
Exactly.

It seems like Lebron helped usher in the Efficiency Era.

And that's a good thing.

[STATUTORY]

Interesting you made this post today.

Just yesterday I was driving in to work and thinking about how the greats have changed the game and thus enhanced their legacy.

Did Lebron change the way the game is played by being so incredibly unselfish? I'm sure this was happening before Lebron, but I feel like the league didn't start going to the "efficiency is king" argument until Lebron came along, and proved that "hero ball" is not the only way to win.

how did he make that argument? by not able to win in Cleveland and forming a superteam in Miami? that made the argument for efficiency?

the efficiency agenda is just natural migration of sabermetricians that ruined baseball to the sport of basketball

they made Bron their posterchild that's true

[kshutts1]

how did he make that argument? by not able to win in Cleveland and forming a superteam in Miami? that made the argument for efficiency?

the efficiency agenda is just natural migration of sabermetricians that ruined baseball to the sport of basketball

they made Bron their posterchild that's true
I'm not dead set in this as a belief, but rather a thought.

I'd argue that Lebron "made that argument" by refusing to play the "hero" that everyone wanted him to play. Z, Davis, Mo... if they're open, they get the shot. No matter that Lebron is better.

Not as a "who's better" comparison, but Kobe and MJ rarely did that. Lebron does it regularly. It IS the more efficient basketball choice, which can make it the better choice.

Again.. just a thought.

[STATUTORY]

I'm not dead set in this as a belief, but rather a thought.

I'd argue that Lebron "made that argument" by refusing to play the "hero" that everyone wanted him to play. Z, Davis, Mo... if they're open, they get the shot. No matter that Lebron is better.

Not as a "who's better" comparison, but Kobe and MJ rarely did that. Lebron does it regularly. It IS the more efficient basketball choice, which can make it the better choice.

Again.. just a thought.

first of all it's not even at all clear that Lebron ball actually maximizes his team's production and output and much less so that it's an admirable approach to the game


So yea Lebron plays the game one way, but who's to say it's the "right way" it's not like his resume is unprecedented

and again I think the journalist driven statistics based analysis of basketball is not because of how Lebron plays the game, in fact the causality is probably reversed.

What I mean is Lebron cares so much about efficiency because a lot of ESPN people talk about efficiency so he thinks that's his ticket to be an all time GOAT

[kshutts1]

first of all it's not even at all clear that Lebron ball actually maximizes his team's production and output and much less so that it's an admirable approach to the game


So yea Lebron plays the game one way, but who's to say it's the "right way" it's not like his resume is unprecedented

and again I think the journalist driven statistics based analysis of basketball is not because of how Lebron plays the game, in fact the causality is probably reversed.

I never said it was right. Just the current trend.

What I mean is Lebron cares so much about efficiency because a lot of ESPN people talk about efficiency so he thinks that's his ticket to be an all time GOAT
If memory serves me well, Lebron was focusing on efficiency before ESPN caught on. Pretty sure they "hated" on him for passing up defended shots to an open teammate.

And the Spurs, Hawks, Rockets and likely a few other teams care more about "how open is the shooter" than "who is shooting". That's what I meant by the Lebron influence on efficiency. Lebron didn't care who was open. He simply saw that they were open; he was not.

[CavaliersFTW]

The collusion/ring chasing influence he had is definitely annoying. Players now jump around the league like mercenaries, particularly when they become veterans, strictly looking for rings.

[3ball]

being so incredibly unselfish?


it's a misconception that lebron is "so incredibly" unselfish.

his style requires a point-guard level of ball-domination, FROM THE FORWARD SPOT...

lebron doesn't start at PG like Magic - lebron starts at SF, but then proceeds to play PG, which impinges on the duties of the actual PG and also puts everyone out of position.. teammates are forced to play out of their comfort zone.. it is selfish of lebron to force teammates to do this.

lebron's ball-domination turns guys that were previously high-producing play-makers, into lower-producing play-finishers.. this lowers his team's overall capacity and ceiling.. the lower ceiling causes lebron's immensely talented teams to underperform and fail to reach the level their talent indicates.

this is fine if he just wants to have like, a nice legacy... but if you're trying to be compared to the GOAT, this isn't going to work out for him.

[Roundball_Rock]

it's a misconception that lebron is "so incredibly" unselfish.

his style requires a point-guard level of ball-domination, FROM THE FORWARD SPOT...

lebron doesn't start at PG like Magic - lebron starts at SF, but then proceeds to play PG, which impinges on the duties of the actual PG and also puts everyone out of position.. teammates are forced to play out of their comfort zone.. it is selfish of lebron to force teammates to do this.

lebron's ball-domination turns guys that were previously high-producing play-makers, into lower-producing play-finishers.. this lowers his team's overall capacity and ceiling.. the lower ceiling causes lebron's immensely talented teams to underperform and fail to reach the level their talent indicates.

this is fine if he just wants to have like, a nice legacy... but if you're trying to be compared to the GOAT, this isn't going to work out for him.

Insecure AF! :roll: No one even mentioned...

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Interesting you made this post today.

Just yesterday I was driving in to work and thinking about how the greats have changed the game and thus enhanced their legacy.

Did Lebron change the way the game is played by being so incredibly unselfish? I'm sure this was happening before Lebron, but I feel like the league didn't start going to the "efficiency is king" argument until Lebron came along, and proved that "hero ball" is not the only way to win.

That's an interesting point. Before LeBron came into his own and established himself as the league's best player (2009- imo) you had Kobe touted as the face of the league...as great as Kobe was, the guy was never an efficient player, and he definitely wasn't the type to distribute well.

While I don't think that LeBron's style of play is anything wholly new in basketball history, it definitely was new relative to the direction the league had been taking before his rise.

[Jacks3]

That's an interesting point. Before LeBron came into his own and established himself as the league's best player (2009- imo) you had Kobe touted as the face of the league...as great as Kobe was, the guy was never an efficient player, and he definitely wasn't the type to distribute well.

While I don't think that LeBron's style of play is anything wholly new in basketball history, it definitely was new relative to the direction the league had been taking before his rise.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[DeuceWallaces]

He looked too much like Melo for my liking at the end of the game tonight. They need some better looks in tight games against good teams.

[KirbyPls]

He looked too much like Melo for my liking at the end of the game tonight. They need some better looks in tight games against good teams.

Why do you have a gingerbread man below your rep?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Kobe is/was a shoot first player who never converted with high efficiency. I'll be interested to see how you challenge this..

[jayfan]

It's when a player dribbles the ball for 20 seconds at the top of the perimeter and then drives for an attempted lay up or kick out.

The 20 second part is exactly right. More often than not, though, the 20 stagnant seconds ends in a forced jumper.



.

[Optimus Prime]

Advanced metrics are a blight upon the league, and I just laugh whenever somebody uses them in an argument, because that means they've already lost. They think they are super smart but basketball is about more than numbers. Intangibles are huge and can't be measured with SportsVU cameras.

LeBron Ball looks unselfish, but it's the ultimate stat-padding. He utterly dominates the offense, and it diminishes the importance of his other teammates. They basically become spectators while LeBron does whatever he wants to do, whenever he wants to do it. Dribble dribble dribble, barrel into the paint like a running back hoping for a whistle, if he doesn't get it THEN LeBron tries to make something happen.

Jordan and Kobe didn't care whether they were called selfish, unselfish or whatever else. They just went out, left it all on the floor, and did what they thought was best for the team to win. LeBron, on the other hand, has this manufactured image that he is so unselfish, such a team player, and that he revolutionized the game, which simply isn't true.

If LeBron just went out, win or lose, and said, "Hey man, I did whatever I felt was necessary to win the game. Call it whatever you want; I'll keep playing the way I believe will win", then I would have more respect for him. Instead, he wants to cling to this nice guy image and wants everybody to love him and worship him. After all, he does have KING and CHOSEN ONE tattooed on his body.

:kobe:

[kshutts1]

it's a misconception that lebron is "so incredibly" unselfish.

his style requires a point-guard level of ball-domination, FROM THE FORWARD SPOT...

lebron doesn't start at PG like Magic - lebron starts at SF, but then proceeds to play PG, which impinges on the duties of the actual PG and also puts everyone out of position.. teammates are forced to play out of their comfort zone.. it is selfish of lebron to force teammates to do this.

lebron's ball-domination turns guys that were previously high-producing play-makers, into lower-producing play-finishers.. this lowers his team's overall capacity and ceiling.. the lower ceiling causes lebron's immensely talented teams to underperform and fail to reach the level their talent indicates.

this is fine if he just wants to have like, a nice legacy... but if you're trying to be compared to the GOAT, this isn't going to work out for him.
Not being forced to play out of their comfort zone if front offices are doing their job, and recruiting/drafting/signing players that fit that need.

There's a reason the Bulls never got a high-usage PG in the 90's, you know. That reason rhymes with Borden.

[J Shuttlesworth]

To answer the OP, ever since "LeBron ball" returned to the Cavs, they have become the best team in the league record wise, and statistically. So LeBron can indeed be effective, especially when you consider it has resulted in 2 championships.

Tonight, it didn't work out so well. He essentially controlled the ball and looked to score on almost every possession late in the game. It's hard to blame him for doing that though when Shump/Smith/Delly are combined 4/21. I think they would benefit from going to Love more, and also having Mozgov in the game, who was playing quite well.

In the end, it almost resulted in the W. If he shot his usual FT%, or even 50%, they would have won the game.

[knicksman]

Kobe is/was a shoot first player who never converted with high efficiency. I'll be interested to see how you challenge this..

2/5<<5/7 :confusedshrug:

[knicksman]

To answer the OP, ever since "LeBron ball" returned to the Cavs, they have become the best team in the league record wise, and statistically. So LeBron can indeed be effective, especially when you consider it has resulted in 2 championships.

Tonight, it didn't work out so well. He essentially controlled the ball and looked to score on almost every possession late in the game. It's hard to blame him for doing that though when Shump/Smith/Delly are combined 4/21. I think they would benefit from going to Love more, and also having Mozgov in the game, who was playing quite well.

In the end, it almost resulted in the W. If he shot his usual FT%, or even 50%, they would have won the game.

bosh and wade are better than 37 year old kareem yet magic was winning rings with him

[24-Inch_Chrome]

2/5<<5/7 :confusedshrug:

I specifically said that Kobe was a great player, my criticism of him had nothing to do with the number of rings he won. **** off you goddamn troll.

[knicksman]

Not being forced to play out of their comfort zone if front offices are doing their job, and recruiting/drafting/signing players that fit that need.

There's a reason the Bulls never got a high-usage PG in the 90's, you know. That reason rhymes with Borden.

Bro, if lebron was just a pure scorer, its easy to fill his weakness but what if he is a scorer that wants to pass. Then that becomes hard to decide. A scorer wouldnt be happy with him same with a passer.
Ferry made a great team in atl so you know that its not anymore on the FO.

[oh the horror]

To answer the OP, ever since "LeBron ball" returned to the Cavs, they have become the best team in the league record wise, and statistically. So LeBron can indeed be effective, especially when you consider it has resulted in 2 championships.

Tonight, it didn't work out so well. He essentially controlled the ball and looked to score on almost every possession late in the game. It's hard to blame him for doing that though when Shump/Smith/Delly are combined 4/21. I think they would benefit from going to Love more, and also having Mozgov in the game, who was playing quite well.

In the end, it almost resulted in the W. If he shot his usual FT%, or even 50%, they would have won the game.



Lebron ball only works with the appropriate talent surrounding it and often that level of talent takes a hit and a back seat to play his style of play but more importantly due to the talent surrounding him it allows him to play the way he does and get the numbers he does that translate to contending basketball.


Lebron ball without other all star to elite talent around it leads to playof exists.

[ILLsmak]

Advanced metrics are a blight upon the league, and I just laugh whenever somebody uses them in an argument, because that means they've already lost. They think they are super smart but basketball is about more than numbers. Intangibles are huge and can't be measured with SportsVU cameras.

LeBron Ball looks unselfish, but it's the ultimate stat-padding. He utterly dominates the offense, and it diminishes the importance of his other teammates. They basically become spectators while LeBron does whatever he wants to do, whenever he wants to do it. Dribble dribble dribble, barrel into the paint like a running back hoping for a whistle, if he doesn't get it THEN LeBron tries to make something happen.

Jordan and Kobe didn't care whether they were called selfish, unselfish or whatever else. They just went out, left it all on the floor, and did what they thought was best for the team to win. LeBron, on the other hand, has this manufactured image that he is so unselfish, such a team player, and that he revolutionized the game, which simply isn't true.

If LeBron just went out, win or lose, and said, "Hey man, I did whatever I felt was necessary to win the game. Call it whatever you want; I'll keep playing the way I believe will win", then I would have more respect for him. Instead, he wants to cling to this nice guy image and wants everybody to love him and worship him. After all, he does have KING and CHOSEN ONE tattooed on his body.

:kobe:

To your first point, I'm sure nobody wants to hear some "real life shit" in reference to bball, but I think 'advanced metrics' in reference to life... that is the over-reliance on statistics and what comes from that has ruined a lot of shit in the world, too. Meaning... even tho they can keep the stats good, it can be also detrimental to the person (for instance, in healthcare) and the world.

I think that is the same with bball. You can aim for and achieve good looking stats without results. The eye test only matters if someone is "looking." As I said before, the advanced things people should be looking at is each player's tendencies in every situation. Nearly everyone in the world is predictable in their response to situations. Maybe only the most talented would be different.

To the second point, I may be really late on this (or maybe I posted it before?), but it occurred to me today that Lebron is the best player possible for the way the NBA is now. I don't think the NBA changed for Lebron, either, unless it was some super conspiracy to start changing when he was just in middle school and groom him into the perfect bball player for our generation.

I personally don't think that's what happened. Regardless, he is. His strength to hold onto the ball while he drives and kicks (especially being able to do well in the pick and roll, a PF size dude who can handle the ball) is the 'hard counter' to the way defense is played now. Nobody can be as successful as LeBron is, possession by possession (or let's say prime Bron, cuz he may be going downhill.)

The weird thing is... there are issues. Even though his skillset is perfect, he makes mistakes. He does things we aren't used to seeing from our superstars and maybe that's because the requirement is much higher than anyone before. I could see that argument, that Bron has to do more than the people before him. He *does* have to orchestrate everything.

However, again... he can't do it. He's got a huge cushion with the guys he ended up with. His team was never just shooters and some D, as it should have been (that's all he should need.)

So LeBron ball is used negatively... but I think LeBron ball is a successful strategy. It's just baffling as to why he wants to plug over-qualified people into the holes, when he could be succeeding with 3 and d players and some good bigs. Or could have, in his prime...


Edit to make my post even longer:





Lebron ball without other all star to elite talent around it leads to playof exists.


Nah, Bronball as I imagine it... has never been put into action when he was ready. The 3 guys he had, for the most part, couldn't stick, and he never had prime dirty bigs. He'd need like... Patrick Beverly PG, Wes Matthews (at least when he was better), Bron, Draymond Green, Larry Sanders.

Just throwing names out there. They'd obviously need some decent bench guys. A mini Bron or people who could run offense and score for 8 minutes a game. I dunno if there needs to be a stretch big... just a big with a 15-17 footer I think is enough. Then the other can be a total banger.

We've def never seen ideal Bron ball. Nor does everyone else have to be super wet. I mean, in truth it comes down to whether you hit the big shots or not. That's what is a good role player. Daniel Gibson did when they went far.

-Smak

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Why do you have a gingerbread man below your rep?

:roll:

[knicksman]

this is what bran stans arent getting, lebron with all star players will have slightly more wins than lebron with role players. Because all star and role players are treated the same with lebron ball. Thus 2/5

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Lebron ball only works with the appropriate talent surrounding it and often that level of talent takes a hit and a back seat to play his style of play but more importantly due to the talent surrounding him it allows him to play the way he does and get the numbers he does that translate to contending basketball.


Lebron ball without other all star to elite talent around it leads to playof exists.

I don't know if that's entirely fair, he was able to drag a Cavs squad without any elite talent to the Finals back in 2007, and never lost in the first round with the team. Obviously they were manhandled by the Spurs in the finals, but although LeBron ball may work best with capable teammates I think it's an exaggeration to say it requires them (to function at a basic level, anyway, it's true that better surrounding players were needed for him to win his rings).

[knicksman]

I don't know if that's entirely fair, he was able to drag a Cavs squad without any elite talent to the Finals back in 2007, and never lost in the first round with the team. Obviously they were manhandled by the Spurs in the finals, but although LeBron ball may work best with capable teammates I think it's an exaggeration to say it requires them (to function at a basic level, anyway, it's true that better surrounding players were needed for him to win his rings).

Bro if you have an IQ, you wouldve realized by now that even jason kidd and iverson could drag teams to the finals in that shit conference. And you wouldve realized by now that lebron would be a regular first rounder in the west based on his record against 50+win teams.