Physicality is often misinterpreted as 'Good' defense...

[Im Still Ballin]

Physicality is in-fact, NOT good defense. Physicality is rash, erratic and overstated. Good defense is communication, teamwork, spacing and angles. The 90's are often cited as a great defensive era with towering shotblockers at the center position in the likes of Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Mutombo... Defense is WAY more than blocks and steals, it is why when you compare the advanced statistics of the 90's to the 2000's and 2010's, it is inferior defensively.

Examples of "Physical, yet poor 90's defense"
http://giant.gfycat.com/PoshBleakIvorygull.gif
-Notice the offensive freedom, and ease to drive to the hoop? Notice the late shotblock attempt which would be called a chest to chest poster on physical defense?
http://giant.gfycat.com/ImaginaryDevotedHoneybee.gif
-Notice the lack of spacial awareness? The ease of drive to the hoop? The late shotblock attempt which would then interpretted as 'physical'?

Now for some examples of good defense
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-KIom4maMFs/STc0_Mq5DlI/AAAAAAAAOrY/zT3MdULists/s1600/2-3%2BZone.jpg
-Notice the complete lack of attention for the two Lakers on either wings, the intentional coverage of floor space to deny ball dribble penetration... Effective scheme to stop a superstar, to beat it one would need to have the adequate floor spacing via shooters, and effective passing/offball movement

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/lebronceleb2.gif
-Notice the shading of the ball defender, and lane protection, complete disregard for the Miami wing players... This subtle zoning forces Lebron to take a midrange jumper when in previous eras where zones were outlawed via the Illegal Defenses rule schemes, the shading defenders would have to be covering their men unless they wished to get a violation of Illegal defense. Lebron would be able to drive to the hoop alot easier under ID rules.

[JT123]

:applause: Ether. Jordan stans shook.

[Collie]

I don't see physicality in those gifs.

[Im Still Ballin]

I don't see physicality in those gifs.
It is often interpreted as going up for the block... Whereas it does not occur as often because of superior positioning and defensive schemes, Centers are already in position and do not need to swat the shot ala weak side blocking...

[oh the horror]

You're basing your argument off several gifs?


You've seen the argument for physical defense even now. I remember people stating when Indiana played Miami in the playoffs the announcers were insistant upon Indiana having a chance if they "mucked up" the game. Get a but physical, etc.


It's a combination of the two. There's a place for physical defense. If a known slasher keeps driving the lane, you put him on his ass. See if he keeps coming back for more.

[Im Still Ballin]

You're basing your argument off several gifs?


You've seen the argument for physical defense even now. I remember people stating when Indiana played Miami in the playoffs the announcers were insistant upon Indiana having a chance if they "mucked up" the game. Get a but physical, etc.


It's a combination of the two. There's a place for physical defense. If a known slasher keeps driving the lane, you put him on his ass. See if he keeps coming back for more.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

The mentality of physicality itself is often confused with the mentality of discipline. Physicality is rash, without thought, emotional, often with consequence. Discipline is focused, necessary, and within the parameters of the rules, usually without consequence.

[Pushxx]

If those are the best examples you can find, safe journey, brother.

[JohnFreeman]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[Im Still Ballin]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[Mrofir]

Experiment for OP to try


Play two games of actual basketball. In one game, your defender is not allowed to touch you. In the next game, your defender is constantly making contact with you, constantly hand checking, etc. Not blatant fouls, but subtle constant contact.

Keep track of your FG%, assists, and turnovers -- compare the two games.


You're talking about schemes. Physicality on defense is annoying as hell. It takes people out of their game, especially if the defender knows how to get really close to fouling without being called.


Cmon now.

[Im Still Ballin]

Experiment for OP to try


Play two games of actual basketball. In one game, your defender is not allowed to touch you. In the next game, your defender is constantly making contact with you, constantly hand checking, etc. Not blatant fouls, but subtle constant contact.

Keep track of your FG%, assists, and turnovers -- compare the two games.


You're talking about schemes. Physicality on defense is annoying as hell. It takes people out of their game, especially if the defender knows how to get really close to fouling without being called.


Cmon now.
"Hand-checking"

It goes both ways you ****ing idiot. Lebron-stiff arm in the 90's? Lethal.

[Im Still Ballin]

"Hand-checking"

It goes both ways you ****ing idiot. Lebron-stiff arm in the 90's? Lethal.
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[JohnMax]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DN2p4p2piI&t=1m55s

@ 1:55 This is why I discount all the stats from the "illegal defense" era. This simple isolation play would be frontside flooded with help across the lane low today. /watch?v=wDwJPY-Nneg (https://www.youtube.com//watch?v=wDwJPY-Nneg)

[Im Still Ballin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DN2p4p2piI&t=1m51s

@ 1:56 This is why I discount all the stats from the "illegal defense" era. This simple isolation play would be frontside flooded with help across the lane low today. /watch?v=wDwJPY-Nneg (https://www.youtube.com//watch?v=wDwJPY-Nneg)
Jesus ****ing christ.

Terrible defense
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif
The zone is brutal, it's clear night and day comparing 90's iso era to 2000s zone friendly

[Mrofir]

"Hand-checking"

It goes both ways you ****ing idiot. Lebron-stiff arm in the 90's? Lethal.


I don't know why I'm responding to someone who posts reaction gifs to their own comments.

But um, did I say anything about Lebron in my post? Did I say he wouldn't have been a superstar in the 90s? :wtf:

I'm simply saying, physical contact is disruptive to the offensive player. That's why there is a limit to how much contact a defender can make. It's called a foul. You're trying way too hard.

Physical contact is also reasonably correlated to defensive effort. It takes a lot of work to make that subtle contact without being called. All other variables held constant, the more physical defender is more effective.

Stop it.

[Im Still Ballin]

I don't know why I'm responding to someone who posts reaction gifs to their own comments.

But um, did I say anything about Lebron in my post? Did I say he wouldn't have been a superstar in the 90s? :wtf:

I'm simply saying, physical contact is disruptive to the offensive player. That's why there is a limit to how much contact a defender can make. It's called a foul. You're trying way too hard.

Physical contact is also reasonably correlated to defensive effort. It takes a lot of work to make that subtle contact without being called. All other variables held constant, the more physical defender is more effective.

Stop it.
Jesus ****ing christ.

I'm using Lebron's stiff arm as a ****ing example... Meaning that not only does handchecking allow the defender more physical leeway, it applies aswell to the ballhandler.

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee wiz.

[Im Still Ballin]

Jesus ****ing christ.

I'm using Lebron's stiff arm as a ****ing example... Meaning that not only does handchecking allow the defender more physical leeway, it applies aswell to the ballhandler.

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee wiz.
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[JohnFreeman]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[Mrofir]

Jesus ****ing christ.

I'm using Lebron's stiff arm as a ****ing example... Meaning that not only does handchecking allow the defender more physical leeway, it applies aswell to the ballhandler.

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee wiz.


ohhhhhhhhhh yip yip yip yip yip yip yip


Thank you for the clarification. By the way, you will notice I've included 1 gif which represents all of defense from the 2010 decade. You'll notice the hyper advanced scheme being used and the complete lack of physicality, which clearly has a detrimental effect on the ball handler. This will be my last post in this thread so make your multiple responses good, the floor is yours.

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/AMARE.jpg

[Im Still Ballin]

You idiot. You have 1 gif, I have MULTIPLE. What you've posted is completely separate to the current state of NBA defense. You haven't even logically addressed it, linked it or analyzed it.

Jesus ****ing christ.

[Im Still Ballin]

You idiot. You have 1 gif, I have MULTIPLE. What you've posted is completely separate to the current state of NBA defense. You haven't even logically addressed it, linked it or analyzed it.

Jesus ****ing christ.
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[TheMan]

On one side you have OP who says playing physical defense doesn't work, on the other we have Pat Riley and Chuck Daly who employed those kinds of defenses.

I wonder who has more credibility? :confusedshrug: The OP who still lives in his mom's basement (and quotes his own posts) or the two HOF coaches...tough choice

[Chadwin]

3ball incoming.....

basically, it was easier to defend one on one back then and harder now (hand checking)

and harder to defend as a team back then (illegal D isos) and easier now

[Im Still Ballin]

3ball incoming.....

basically, it was easier to defend one on one back then and harder now (hand checking)

and harder to defend as a team back then (illegal D isos) and easier now
Bingo

And it's always easier to stop a great player defending as a team

No disrespect to the elite 90's players, I'm sure their skill-sets would transcend to the modern era just fine. I'm just a bit surprised when people say how much better these guys from the 90's were when they obviously were playing in times where it was easier to be a star... It's hard to compare stats as well, especially bigmen because the post game has essentially been nerfed by no illegal defense, so everything is pick and roll, quick post ups, lobs and shooting for bigmen now, This obviously affected the output of their stats...

[STATUTORY]

this is a good thread, fans typically conflate the two notions indeed. Things get even worse when we go back to the 80s, there was literally no concept of schemes or team systematic dfense, it was all predicated on personnel, shut down your man with the occasional double team

a guy like Kobe would have gone wild like on the league back then

[atljonesbro]

I always find it interesting people thought the "bad boys" were a good defensive team because they took cheap shots at people. If anything that makes them a bad defensive team using cheap play to supplement their lack of skill.