Would prime Hakeem do this to prime Duncan?

[sportjames23]

http://media.giphy.com/media/11Fyqer3gaJVrq/giphy.gif

[K Xerxes]

If he can do it to DRob, he can do it to anyone. DRob was as good a defender as Duncan, maybe even better.

[AboutBuckets]

Pretty sure Duncan stays down on his feet more than DRob used to. The shot fakes would have still been a pain in the ass for him but probably not the devastation that DRob biting on every single one led to.

[305Baller]

Of course he could.

[Im Still Ballin]

Look at the defense

Complete isolation pretty much 3 feet from the hoop

Illegal defense era...

[G0ATbe]

He would've already gotten to the rim on the first drive attempt. Wouldnt need to.

[deja vu]

He would do it to anyone in NBA history.

[ClipperRevival]

Hakeem was one of a kind. There has never been a big quite like him with his overall offensive game. How many bigs were able to face you up from 15-18 feet and take you off the dribble?

[Mass Debator]

DRob was more jumpy than Duncan. I think TD would cover those moves better, but he still won't be able to stop it.

[ClipperRevival]

DRob was more jumpy than Duncan. I think TD would cover those moves better, but he still won't be able to stop it.

Well, Hakeem dominated in one of the strongest eras for bigs and he did it against all type of bigs. Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Robinson, etc. He would've been so dominant in today's era it's not even funny given how soft the rules are.

[T_L_P]

He isn't biting on those fakes, I know that much.

Doesn't mean Hakeem wouldn't go off though.

[jzek]

Who's got more total blocks - Drob or Timmay?

[Dr Hawk]

Who's got more total blocks - Drob or Timmay?

Robinson: 2954 blocks, 3 per game
Duncan: 2889 blocks, 2.2 per game

[JonatanRey]

Highlights do nothing good to basketball.

[robert_shaww]

Robinson: 2954 blocks, 3 per game
Duncan: 2889 blocks, 2.2 per game


:rolleyes:

[pauk]

If he can do it to DRob, he can do it to anyone. DRob was as good a defender as Duncan, maybe even better.

He is nowhere the defender David Robinson was.... a guy who ***ing won DPOY in a season stacked with defenders who all were better interior defenders than Duncan ever was like Hakeem Olajuwon, Dikembe Mutombo and so on...

You know how a player is so underrated at first that with time he becomes overrated? Thats what has happened to Duncan...

As far as this thread goes.... Not only would he do it to Duncan, but many more times than he would have pulled it on D-Rob....

[ImKobe]

Just imagine Hakeem in Pop's system all his career.

[Akrazotile]

http://media.giphy.com/media/11Fyqer3gaJVrq/giphy.gif

It depends if the refs today call that as a travel, or not.

Two steps then pivots, then leaps off his non pivot foot before releasing the ball.

Pretty sure thats a travel.

[IncarceratedBob]

It depends if the refs today call that as a travel, or not.

Two steps then pivots, then leaps off his non pivot foot before releasing the ball.

Pretty sure thats a travel.
Lmao, I'm just gonna quote you so you don't get a chance to delete this stupidity

[Akrazotile]

Lmao, I'm just gonna quote you so you don't get a chance to delete this stupidity



Good job.

[T_L_P]

He is nowhere the defender David Robinson was.... a guy who ***ing won DPOY in a season stacked with defenders who all were better interior defenders than Duncan ever was like Hakeem Olajuwon, Dikembe Mutombo and so on...

You know how a player is so underrated at first that with time he becomes overrated? Thats what has happened to Duncan...

As far as this thread goes.... Not only would he do it to Duncan, but many more times than he would have pulled it on D-Rob....

'Prime Rick Barry is easily better than prime Tim Duncan'.

'LeBron should win DPOY ever year of his career'.


Just imagine Hakeem in Pop's system all his career.

The system that leads said coach to a 1-7 Playoff record in games without that player? :facepalm

[Shih508]

Robinson: 2954 blocks, 3 per game
Duncan: 2889 blocks, 2.2 per game


From that gif shows that DRob likes to go for block too much that's how he got faked.

More blocks doesn't mean better defender

[T_L_P]

From that gif shows that DRob likes to go for block too much that's how he got faked.

More blocks doesn't mean better defender

Bingo. Early Hakeem was probably racking up a ton of blocks (can't check right now), but he was a notorious gambler.

It's the same with people saying 'x number of steals, good defense'. Phil Jackson called Kobe out on it.

Meanwhile prime Duncan had perfect positioning and could block/alter shots flat-footed, meaning he didn't bite on as many fakes or foul. He still alters shots flat-footed, but he's two slow to position himself correctly every time and rotate over.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It depends if the refs today call that as a travel, or not.

Two steps then pivots, then leaps off his non pivot foot before releasing the ball.

Pretty sure thats a travel.
Why else use your pivot if not for already taking 2 steps? What are you saying? :oldlol:

[Akrazotile]

Why else use your pivot if not for already taking 2 steps? What are you saying? :oldlol:


:facepalm He takes two steps, then picks up his pivot foot and leaps off the other foot.

You know which foot the pivot foot is right?

[pauk]

'Prime Rick Barry is easily better than prime Tim Duncan'.

'LeBron should win DPOY ever year of his career'.

Never said that... i said i wouldnt mind Rick Barry over Duncan.... and i never said that about Lebron... there is a difference.... and neither does it have anything to do with the post i made or this thread.... you only tried to avoid the context of my post because you know its the truth and cant retaliate any other way....

Try again...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:facepalm He takes two steps, then picks up his pivot foot and leaps off the other foot.

You know which foot the pivot foot is right?

Assuming you're not a basketball illiterate, he's using his left foot as his pivot.

And used it after the initial 2 steps. You're allowed to jump after doing so, as long as you lead with your pivot/jump with both feet simultaneously (exactly what is seen in this gif). No ref will ever call that.

[T_L_P]

Never said that... i said i wouldnt mind Rick Barry over Duncan.... and i never said that about Lebron... there is a difference.... and neither does it have anything to do with the post i made or this thread.... you only tried to avoid the context of my post because you know its the truth and cant retaliate any other way....

Try again...


These are the players i think reached a higher level than Duncan ever did in terms of overall talent and/or skill and/or productions and/or domination....

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Elgin Baylor
Bill Russell
Jerry West
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kobe Bryant
Shaquille O'Neal
Bob Pettit
Kevin Durant
Charles Barkley
Moses Malone
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Tracy McGrady
Dwyane Wade
George Gervin
Rick Barry
Bernard King
George Mikan

(no specific order)

Thats 27 players....... say all of these were in their prime (including Duncan) i would take all these 27 players over Duncan.... very easily....

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11036735&postcount=104

Re: Journalist for Chicago Tribune says LeBron is DPOY until he retires

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9706176&postcount=42


He is right... perhaps not until he retires, but yes...

[GreggPopazit]

Pretty sure Duncan stays down on his feet more than DRob used to. The shot fakes would have still been a pain in the ass for him but probably not the devastation that DRob biting on every single one led to.

My thoughts exactly, but Hakeem could catch anybody with that move at some point.

[ninephive]

The system that leads said coach to a 1-7 Playoff record in games without that player? :facepalm
I always forget about this stat. It's nice to be able to have facts when people pull the "you can put any player in Pop's system" garbage. He's a great coach and has maximized the talent he has as well as any coach could I believe, but it's silly to think we have these championship teams without some of the pieces we've had, mainly Duncan.

[sportjames23]

He is nowhere the defender David Robinson was.... a guy who ***ing won DPOY in a season stacked with defenders who all were better interior defenders than Duncan ever was like Hakeem Olajuwon, Dikembe Mutombo and so on...

You know how a player is so underrated at first that with time he becomes overrated? Thats what has happened to Duncan...

As far as this thread goes.... Not only would he do it to Duncan, but many more times than he would have pulled it on D-Rob....


Anybody got any popcorn? Dis gon get gud.

[ClipperRevival]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11036735&postcount=104

Re: Journalist for Chicago Tribune says LeBron is DPOY until he retires

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9706176&postcount=42

Wow, that is terrible. Duncan is a top 10 ATG on almost any legit list. 27 players over Duncan? Ouch.

[ImKobe]

I always forget about this stat. It's nice to be able to have facts when people pull the "you can put any player in Pop's system" garbage. He's a great coach and has maximized the talent he has as well as any coach could I believe, but it's silly to think we have these championship teams without some of the pieces we've had, mainly Duncan.

So you two are saying that Hakeem wouldn't be able to fill Duncan's role and win titles under that system? :roll:

should I remind you cats about the 93-94 Houston Rockets?

[ClipperRevival]

At his peak, Olajuwon was about as good as any big in history IMO. If you consider his overall game and impact on both ends. The guy dominated some of the best bigs in history, so you can't question his legitimacy in terms of being dominant in a weak era. There was not one thing he couldn't do great at on either end for a big.

I respect Duncan and his career but give me a peak Olajuwon over Duncan any day of the week.

[aj1987]

He isn't biting on those fakes, I know that much.

Doesn't mean Hakeem wouldn't go off though.
Too many posts to quote from so just going for this one. Robinson was a better defender than Duncan. Timmy is more fundamental, even when it comes to defense, but Rob was flat out better. No shame in that though. Rob is one of the GOAT defenders. If he didn't choke in the PO's, he'd probably he top 10 all-time. Shame that he came in so late.

[ImKobe]

At his peak, Olajuwon was about as good as any big in history IMO. If you consider his overall game and impact on both ends. The guy dominated some of the best bigs in history, so you can't question his legitimacy in terms of being dominant in a weak era. There was not one thing he couldn't do great at on either end for a big.

I respect Duncan and his career but give me a peak Olajuwon over Duncan any day of the week.

32 year old Hakeem in the Playoffs :applause:

outplayed Barkley, Malone, Robinson AND Shaq H2H, all in one Playoff run

[ClipperRevival]

Too many posts to quote from so just going for this one. Robinson was a better defender than Duncan. Timmy is more fundamental, even when it comes to defense, but Rob was flat out better. No shame in that though. Rob is one of the GOAT defenders. If he didn't choke in the PO's, he'd probably he top 10 all-time. Shame that he came in so late.

I don't know if we can say for sure Rob was a better defender. Yes, he was much more athletic/explosive off the ground and could alter/block more shots and get to spots quicker than Duncan. But that's the glamour part of D. The other 90% of defense is being aware, keeping guys in front of you, being in the right position, etc. I think Duncan was about as good as anyone at doing stuff like that.

[HOoopCityJones]

People don't realize how many times Duncan has been shit on , do they? :biggums:

In case ya forgot.

http://youtu.be/WQxgHgRh95Y

And that's just Kobe. :confusedshrug:

[aj1987]

I don't know if we can say for sure Rob was a better defender. Yes, he was much more athletic/explosive off the ground and could alter/block more shots and get to spots quicker than Duncan. But that's the glamour part of D. The other 90% of defense is being aware, keeping guys in front of you, being in the right position, etc. I think Duncan was about as good as anyone at doing stuff like that.
D. Rob wasn't? Don't get me wrong. Timmy is one of the GOAT defenders, but I'd take prime D. Rob over Timmy. Timmy, however, has been an elite defender of almost 14 years.

[ClipperRevival]

D. Rob wasn't? Don't get me wrong. Timmy is one of the GOAT defenders, but I'd take prime D. Rob over Timmy. Timmy, however, has been an elite defender of almost 14 years.

Well, Rob was more of a gambler and depended more on his natural athleticism. Duncan had to be fundamentally sound to be that good on D because he didn't have the athleticism to fall back on. Based purely on D, i honestly don't know who i would rate higher.

[aj1987]

Well, Rob was more of a gambler and depended more on his natural athleticism. Duncan had to be fundamentally sound to be that good on D because he didn't have the athleticism to fall back on. Based purely on D, i honestly don't know who i would rate higher.
Yeah, you're an idiot. Stop with the rhetoric that D. Rob was a "gambler" and "relied on his athleticism". Dude was a good defender even in his later years.

[IncarceratedBob]

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o614/tillyho12/b2b91455.png

[T_L_P]

Too many posts to quote from so just going for this one. Robinson was a better defender than Duncan. Timmy is more fundamental, even when it comes to defense, but Rob was flat out better. No shame in that though. Rob is one of the GOAT defenders. If he didn't choke in the PO's, he'd probably he top 10 all-time. Shame that he came in so late.

I've said this multiple times.

Robinson is the better defensive player. That doesn't mean he was better at every facet. Duncan was a more grounded defender and he had better anticipation, which is why there's less chance of him biting on those fakes.

Here's what I said after.


Doesn't mean Hakeem wouldn't go off though

Why would you quote that post?

[T_L_P]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsHLOq22UFI

Prime example of a defensive player gambling.

Sometimes it works (which is why players like Hakeem and Robinson could average 4 BPG in a season) and sometimes it doesn't (this clip).

Duncan didn't do that. Robinson was less of a gambler than young Hakeem, but before Robinson got old and was allowed to focus on defense (when Duncan got there), he was a gambler.

You can be better at one facet of the game than someone else and still not be the better player, you know?

[aj1987]

I've said this multiple times.

Robinson is the better defensive player. That doesn't mean he was better at every facet. Duncan was a more grounded defender and he had better anticipation, which is why there's less chance of him biting on those fakes.

Here's what I said after.

Why would you quote that post?
Not gonna disagree with you here completely. Duncan was definitely more grounded, but even he would've bit on those fakes. There's actually footage of Duncan trying to block post moves and getting scored on (after leaping). And no, I'm not going looking for those videos. Probably somebody else will (thanks).

[Straight_Ballin]

Hakeem could do it to Duncan but let's not pretend that Drob didn't once drop 71 points because he was given the green light.

[sportjames23]

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o614/tillyho12/b2b91455.png


When did Kobe say this?

[AboutBuckets]

When did Kobe say this?
It's IncarceratedBob, 99% chance he just photoshopped that to throw some fuel on the Kobe/Duncan all time ranking fire :lol

[deja vu]

Just imagine Hakeem in Pop's system all his career.
Scary.

[Reggie43]

Hakeem might have not needed those fakes against Duncan because the initial move would have been enough to score

[Round Mound]

Hakeem is too fast, agil, quick footed and post game talented for Duncan. Only center that i think could slow down Hakeem is Wilt.

[The Iron Sheik]

If he can do it to DRob, he can do it to anyone. DRob was as good a defender as Duncan, maybe even better.

he was better.

[DatAsh]

Hakeem is too fast, agil, quick footed and post game talented for Duncan. Only center that i think could slow down Hakeem is Wilt.

Russell would be better on Hakeem.

Wilt would be better on Shaq/Kareem.

[LAZERUSS]

Russell would be better on Hakeem.

Wilt would be better on Shaq/Kareem.

Somewhat agree...albeit, a Wilt from say '60 thru '63 likely could stay with Hakeem.

Why?

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


"When challenged, Wilt could do almost anything he wanted. In 1961 a new star named Walt Bellamy came into the league. Bellamy was 6-foot-11, and was scoring 30 points a game. First time they played against each other, they met at half court. Bellamy said, 'Hello, Mr. Chamberlain. I'm Walter Bellamy.' Chamberlain reached for Bellamy's hand and said, 'Hello, Walter. You won't get a shot off in the first half.' Wilt then blocked Bellamy's first nine shots. At the start of the second half Wilt said to Bellamy, 'Okay, Walter. Now you can play.'"

Wilt outscored Bellamy in that game, 52-14. And he would basically murder Bellamy his entire CAREER.

In any case, Wilt, solely defending Bellamy, completely shut him out. Clearly, had Chamberlain played one-on-one defense EXCLUSIVELY, he was arguably as great as anyone who has ever played defense.


And I have mentioned this before, but in Wilt's ROOKIE season, and covering 11 regular season H2H games, he held a prime offensive Russell, who had shot a career high .467 against the NBA, to a .393 FG%. Two years later, in their seven game EDF's, Chamberlain held a prime offensive Russell, who had shot .457 against the NBA, to a .399 FG%.

[Round Mound]

Russell would be better on Hakeem.

Wilt would be better on Shaq/Kareem.

You are probably right about Russell on Hakeem in terms of foot quickness (to keep up with Dreams magical moves) but Hakeem was like 20-25 lbs heavier than Russell. 1967 Wilt was probably the perfect center defesively and offensively.

[DatAsh]

1967 Wilt was probably the perfect center defesively and offensively.

Agreed, though his defense was even better in 68.

[Smoke117]

He would of went right by Duncan on the initial crossover...Duncan is much slower than Robinson.

[BlakFrankWhite]

BUMP

the problem with D-Rob was that he was a showman and a stat padder so all he cared about was getting the block.

Duncan is definetly no showman....he's one of the smartest players ever...and would stayed on Hakeem rather then made to look like a fool.

[ArbitraryWater]

Duncan would definitely stay grounded, but like Smoke said, Hakeem would go by him easier.

[3ball]

Of course he would.

[3ball]

Look at the post defense

Complete isolation pretty much 3 feet from the hoop

Illegal defense era...


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/911d3cac30b219754c53b4b156428f49.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/10f1c13acb043d8be838b7cd90e5c5fd.gif


http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


NBA.COM: Doesn't the wide-open style benefit certain types of players? For example, wing players vs. frontcourt players?

STU JACKSON: The benefits of an open game are not limited to just perimeter players. An open game can benefit a post player as well. Remember, if the players are spaced wider and using more of the court, then defenses have to play those players closely because they're good shooters. The style actually serves to open up the middle of the floor. If a team has an effective post player, he would have more room to operate in the post.
.

[3ball]

Look at the post defense

Complete isolation pretty much 3 feet from the hoop

Illegal defense era...


http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP&CF=Poss*GE*200

We finally have definitive statistical proof that post scoring is easier than ever today: the NBA's new player-tracking data (linked above) shows that Al Jefferson posts up a super-high percentage of the time - just like the bigs in previous eras - and yet he's a league-leader at 0.97 PPP on the post.

Accordingly, we know that the following 11 players from 1996 would be > 0.97 PPP in today's game, and therefore bump Al Jefferson down to at least #11, probably further:

Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson
Ewing
Alonzo
Sabonis (25 PER - he'd be the best all-round big in today's game)
Karl Malone
Barkley
Webber
Kemp

And probably Rik Smits, Vin Baker, Dino Radja, and certainly Derrick Coleman.

We know that 1.00 PPP is considered excellent for ANY scoring method and that's what high-volume poster Al Jefferson gets in today's game - Jefferson is a league-leader in post efficiency with 0.97 PPP, even though he would be a 2nd tier big man (non-top 10) in previous eras.

The fact that 2nd tier bigs from previous eras would lead the league today in post PPP flat-out proves today's defensive environment hasn't diminished post efficiencies... The only reason coaches don't use post-ups as much as before is because floor-spacing and the hand-check ban increased efficiencies on ball movement and dribble penetration, allowing these methods to SURPASS post-ups.. But Al Jefferson scoring 1.00 PPP on the post proves that post efficiencies THEMSELVES haven't diminished at all.

Also, if we are keeping it real, simple logic tells us that today's spacing and defensive 3 seconds rule force defenders to help from further distances on post players.. So even without the Al Jefferson proof, it makes sense that post PPP is higher today than it used to be.. After all, everything else (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) is..