Honesltly, put Jordan in the Cavs instead of Lebron James in 2004, how many rings?

[robert_shaww]

Since 2004 to 2014.

No L. James in the league. Same rosters for the cavs and everybody else.

be honest here.

IMO: 0 rings.

[IncarceratedBob]

depends where he goes in 2010

[robert_shaww]

he stays with the cavs.

[Im Still Ballin]

You'd be right

Those cavs teams didn't have nearly enough talent

[robert_shaww]

You'd be right

Those cavs teams didn't have nearly enough talent

so.... james played 4 seasons with a talented team (4 finals)

[Alamо]

not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6...

[KembaWalker]

not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6...

This. The GOAT with a 55 point dropping all-star in Mo Williams?! It's over :bowdown:

Plus he gonna get old ass Shaq at some point :pimp:

EDIT: Also former all-star Antawn Jamison, it won't even be fair

[Quickening]

The same as he won in the 80s before he got the most stacked roster

[RoundMoundOfReb]

0.

[ClipperRevival]

The same as he won in the 80s before he got the most stacked roster

MJ's rosters weren't stacked, they were top heavy. MJ/Pip and Grant/Rodman. Everyone else were role players. A stacked team is a team like the 2000 Blazers or the 2002 Kings or this year's Warriors. There is a difference.

[Im Still Ballin]

MJ's rosters weren't stacked, they were top heavy. MJ/Pip and Grant/Rodman. Everyone else were role players. A stacked team is a team like the 2000 Blazers or the 2002 Kings or this year's Warriors. There is a difference.
55 wins without Jordan

Stacked

[GreggPopazit]

If LeBron could get those teams 60 win seasons, I think Jordan could get them to championships. Not sure how many, and even harder to tell in the 2010s because of the Cavs not blowing things up if Jordan stayed.

[jayfan]

The same as he won in the 80s before he got the most stacked roster

That never happened. Roster was hardly stacked.










.

[ClipperRevival]

55 wins without Jordan

Stacked

No, they weren't stacked. They were star heavy in Pippen and Grant. Kukoc was pretty solid and borderline star material. But everyone else were role players like Cartwright, Paxson, Armstrong, etc.

[riseagainst]

he'd win at least 2.

[ClipperRevival]

The same as he won in the 80s before he got the most stacked roster

Also, MJ had pretty much the same team from about 1987 through 1993. The difference was they weren't mature enough to win in the late 80's as MJ, Pip and Grant were still very young and they didn't have PJ yet. So the notion that MJ had this stacked team all of a sudden is just false. They just learned how to win once they got PJ and matured with age.

[mehyaM24]

none

[JT123]

Based on his 1-9 playoff record without Pippen, I'd say he would be lucky to win one playoff series.

[HurricaneKid]

Not even close to one.

Seriously, someone tell me what year. LeBron's peak RPMs were the highest of anyone in the last 25 years and he was never CLOSE to winning. I'm comfortable saying MJ was better but significantly better than the best seasons of the last 25 years? C'mon.

[ClipperRevival]

Based on his 1-9 playoff record without Pippen, I'd say he would be lucky to win one playoff series.

We can do this both ways. What did Pippen ever do when he left Chicago? He was "the man" in Houston and didn't do squat. Then he played with one of the most talented teams ever in the 2000 Blazers and didn't win it.

[JT123]

Not even close to one.

Seriously, someone tell me what year. LeBron's peak RPMs were the highest of anyone in the last 25 years and he was never CLOSE to winning. I'm comfortable saying MJ was better but significantly better than the best seasons of the last 25 years? C'mon.
Wrong. MJ was a better scorer, but Lebron is much better than Jordan when it comes to getting the best out of a mediocre supporting cast.

[imdaman99]

I love how this thread is infested with the branstan insects.

Insecurities a btch :oldlol:

[hawksdreamfan44]

Why do people forget that MJ never won a ring without Scottie, another Hall-of-Famer, plus one of the greatest coaches of all-time in Phil Jackson? Those Cavs didn't have that around LeBron. MJ's better than LeBron, so maybe he'd get one ring with those Cavs squads, but I wouldn't bet on more than that.

[JT123]

We can do this both ways. What did Pippen ever do when he left Chicago? He was "the man" in Houston and didn't do squat. Then he played with one of the most talented teams ever in the 2000 Blazers and didn't win it.
That was past prime Pippen. :oldlol:
I'm not saying Pippen was more responsible for winning than Jordan, I'm just saying that Jordan never came close to having success in the playoffs without an elite second option. You are a fool if you think he would be winning rings with Larry Hughes and Mo Williams as sidekicks.

[SugarHill]

I love how this thread is infested with the branstan insects.

Insecurities a btch :oldlol:
You're wondering why LeBron fans are replying to a topic that is about LeBron James and Michael Jordan?

[Optimus Prime]

6/6

:kobe:

[JT123]

6/6

:kobe:
Have you ever made a post that didn't include that Kobe emoticon?
:kobe:

[G0ATbe]

0. He's the better player but the era isn't even close to being as weak as the 90s. Plus Cavs weren't as stacked as the 90s Bulls up until this year. Still pretty stacked pre 2010 though.

[ClipperRevival]

That was past prime Pippen. :oldlol:
I'm not saying Pippen was more responsible for winning than Jordan, I'm just saying that Jordan never came close to having success in the playoffs without an elite second option. You are a fool if you think he would be winning rings with Larry Hughes and Mo Williams as sidekicks.

I never said MJ would win rings with the Clev roster. I was just answering to the person that said MJs teams were stacked.

Also, MJ was clearly past his prime in the last couple of years when he won rings. He was 33 and 34. Pippen was 34 when he went to Houston. And people overlook this fact. For a wing player to be this dominant well into his 30's is impressive, let alone dominate the rest of the league and win rings.

[sd3035]

6/6 :kobe:

[HurricaneKid]

Wrong. MJ was a better scorer, but Lebron is much better than Jordan when it comes to getting the best out of a mediocre supporting cast.

I'm going to point to this moment the next time I am called (rightfully so) a LeStan.

[j3lademaster]

As great as MJ was, and as weak as the east has been throughout Lebron's career, I don't see anyone winning with the playoff trainwreck that is Mo Williams as a 2nd option.

[bond10]

Practicing/scrimmages with Jordan will improve anyone's defense as long as they're willing to go hard like Pippen. Eventually, he would've made his Pippen in the Cavs and win a couple of rings.

[robert_shaww]

Practicing/scrimmages with Jordan will improve anyone's defense as long as they're willing to go hard like Pippen. Eventually, he would've made his Pippen in the Cavs and win a couple of rings.

are you sure? :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[HurricaneKid]

Practicing/scrimmages with Jordan will improve anyone's defense as long as they're willing to go hard like Pippen. Eventually, he would've made his Pippen in the Cavs and win a couple of rings.


MJ would have made Wally Szcerbiak a top 25 all time player??

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Now THAT would make him GOAT

[tmacattack33]

0.

[Fudge]

At least 3.

[sdot_thadon]

Zero. Best chance would be this season's team.

[Joyner82reload]

Honestly 2010 should have happened. That team was good enough to win a title, LeBron choked vs the Celtics.

[insidious301]

I think the Cavs could win it all in 2007. That was LeBron's worst statistical season, but still a pretty decent roster with shooters, defense and veterans. 2009 and 2010 are certainly possible, but who knows how well MJ plays/meshes with his second option, Mo Williams.

[pauk]

Well if he could turn Drew into Horace Grant and Pavlovic into Pippen... then maybe...

[edrick]

The same number he had without Pippen and Phil Jackson.

[hahaitme]

Practicing/scrimmages with Jordan will improve anyone's defense as long as they're willing to go hard like Pippen. Eventually, he would've made his Pippen in the Cavs and win a couple of rings.

lmao Jordan stans have to be the worst out of all the stan groups.

http://i.imgur.com/50MR3za.jpg

[3ball]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s


Bill Laimbeer: "We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."


Jordan had the least supporting talent of any dynasty, which is why he was forced to produce the most raw offensive production of all time (as measured by points + assists):

43.3 points and 7.4 assists per 100 possessions in the playoffs... no one is close.

[3ball]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s

^^^ Here's Pippen in the Bad Boys documentary admitting how the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7, which cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals.


It's amazing... Jordan had to do everything for that team - NO ALL-STARS when he won the championship in 1991... only 4 teams have done that in the last 35 years, since the inception of the 3-point line in 1982 (1991 Bulls, 1994 Rockets, 1999 Spurs, 2011 Mavericks).

There's a reason Jordan was forced to put up the greatest offensive raw production ever (as measured by points and assists) to win his championships - he simply had the least supporting talent of any dynasty.

[3ball]

.
In the Finals, Jordan does everything Lebron does each game, plus an extra HALF of scoring, on much better efficiency:


Thru Age 29 - Finals Averages

Lebron: 24.1 PPG / 6.4 APG / 46.3% FG / 31.2% 3 PT
Jordan: 36.3 PPG / 7.9 APG / 52.6% FG / 40.7% 3 PT


Thru Age 29 - Playoff Averages

Lebron: 28.0 PPG / 6.4 APG / 48.2% FG / 33.3% 3 PT
Jordan: 34.7 PPG / 6.6 APG / 50.1% FG / 35.2% 3 PT
.

[knicksman]

He will do to larry hughes what he did to pippen and then 10/10

[knicksman]

lmao Jordan stans have to be the worst out of all the stan groups.

http://i.imgur.com/50MR3za.jpg

Bro role players arent included in the discussion

[Hey Yo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s

^^^ Here's Pippen in the Bad Boys documentary admitting how the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7, which cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals.


It's amazing... Jordan had to do everything for that team - NO ALL-STARS when he won the championship in 1991... only 4 teams have done that in the last 35 years, since the inception of the 3-point line in 1982 (1991 Bulls, 1994 Rockets, 1999 Spurs, 2011 Mavericks).

There's a reason Jordan was forced to put up the greatest offensive raw production ever (as measured by points and assists) to win his championships - he simply had the least supporting talent of any dynasty.
Pippen was an all-star the year before, yet put up better reg. season numbers in 91

[3ball]

Pippen was an all-star the year before, yet put up better reg. season numbers in 91
only 4 teams have won a championship with only 1 all-star since 1982, and Jordan's 1991 Bulls are one of them.

as laimbeer said, all the attention was on Jordan.. they didn't even THINK about pippen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s
.

[LeJohn Janes]

Well, they go to the finals in 2007 so there's a ring right there.

[warriorfan]

Jordan with no Hand-Checking?


move over russell 12/12

[ClipperRevival]

Jordan with no Hand-Checking?


move over russell 12/12

Good point. It's night and day in what they allowed in terms of physical contact in MJ's era and today. You can't even touch anyone anymore or it's a flagarant. Mj had to go up against one of the toughest, baddest and best defenses in history and those Pistons respected MJ so much, they invented the Jordan Rules.

[Hey Yo]

only 4 teams have won a championship with only 1 all-star since 1982, and Jordan's 1991 Bulls are one of them.

as laimbeer said, all the attention was on Jordan.. they didn't even THINK about pippen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s
.
Like I said, Pippen was an all-star the year before and put up better numbers in 1991. Bulls had 2 all-stars

Pippen also almost avg. 10FTA in the 1991 ECF. If they weren't worried about him, why foul him?

[hahaitme]

Bro role players arent included in the discussion

What are you on about? I don't see any knicks players in that image.

2/8 :roll: The "mecca" of basketball, with the same amount of rings as Bran.

[knicksman]

What are you on about? I don't see any knicks players in that image.

2/8 :roll: The "mecca" of basketball, with the same amount of rings as Bran.

role player

[3ball]

If they weren't worried about him, why foul him?


They weren't worried about Pippen, because Bill Laimbeer said they weren't:

Bill Laimbeer: "We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s

[Hey Yo]

They weren't worried about Pippen, because Bill Laimbeer said they weren't:

Bill Laimbeer: "We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s
Scottie averaged just under 10FTA over a 4 game series, yet they weren't worried about him.

I'll take logic over Bill's exaggeration.

[Roundball_Rock]

Like I said, Pippen was an all-star the year before and put up better numbers in 1991. Bulls had 2 all-stars

Pippen also almost avg. 10FTA in the 1991 ECF. If they weren't worried about him, why foul him?

After the season Pippen was one of the first group of "no-brainer" players taken for the Dream Team along with MJ, Magic, Bird and David Robinson. That is how highly he was rated after 91'. He put up 22/9/6 in the playoffs, 21/9/7 in the Finals along with key defense on Magic that, according to Phil Jackson "changed the fortunes" of the Bulls in the series (CHI was staring at being down 0-2).

:lol at 3ball grasping at straws over an all-star snub.

[3ball]

All the defensive focus was on MJ... everyone knows that.

[3ball]

I'll take logic over Bill's exaggeration.


You were too young to have been there, but it was common knowledge that all the focus was on Jordan.


Chuck Daly: "It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s


Joe Dumars: "I talked to Isiah later that night (after Jordan had hit the GW in Game 3 of 1989 ECF) and Isiah said he went out to Michigan Avenue on the water out there, and he said he sat out there for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)"

Isiah Thomas: "Me and Dumars were on the phone for HOURS... talking about 23 in red."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m32s


It's called the Jordan Rules... :confusedshrug: .... it's common knowledge that it was all about MJ.
.

[Roundball_Rock]

So what changed in 91'? Why did the Bulls go from losing every year to Detroit for three years to finally defeating them? MJ was putting up big numbers in 88', 89' and 90' too. If it was all Mike, what happened when CHI went 6-12 against Detroit in the playoffs from 1988-1990? Pippen's 22/8/5 and Grant had nothing to do with it, right?

[Hey Yo]

You were too young to have been there, but it was common knowledge that all the focus was on Jordan.


Chuck Daly: "It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s


Joe Dumars: "I talked to Isiah later that night (after Jordan had hit the GW in Game 3 of 1989 ECF) and Isiah said he went out to Michigan Avenue on the water out there, and he said he sat out there for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)"

Isiah Thomas: "Me and Dumars were on the phone for HOURS... talking about 23 in red."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m32s


It's called the Jordan Rules... :confusedshrug: .... it's common knowledge that it was all about MJ.
.
Not too young at all.

Never said that the majority of the focus wasn't on MJ. But to imply that Scottie was an afterthought to Detroit is laughable at best.

[Prime_Shaq]

Still wouldn't win. Put in prime shaq however...

[Roundball_Rock]

Not to young at all.

Never said that the majority of the focus wasn't on MJ. But to imply that Scottie was an afterthought is laughable at best.

Exactly. Detroit even tried to trade up to draft Pippen in 87'. :lol 3ball should be grateful that did not happen.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Very hard to say after 2010 as LeBron leaving changed that team a lot the following seasons.

He would probably have another finals appearance in 2009 &/or 2010. Cavs could be a good chance to take one, especially considering how MJ outplayed magic/drexler/barkley in his first 3 finals.

[ralph_i_el]

Good point. It's night and day in what they allowed in terms of physical contact in MJ's era and today. You can't even touch anyone anymore or it's a flagarant. Mj had to go up against one of the toughest, baddest and best defenses in history and those Pistons respected MJ so much, they invented the Jordan Rules.

Defense is so much better today :facepalm

[ClipperRevival]

Defense is so much better today :facepalm

Based on what? That the league might be more athletic? What about the lack of legit rim protectors today? No hand checking. Not allowed to be physical at all. All of the rules are catered to the wing player and ease of movment on the perimeter today. I'm not saying the D back in the day was better. All I'm saying is if I'm an athletic wing, I know which era I would prefer to play in.

[ralph_i_el]

Based on what? That the league might be more athletic? What about the lack of legit rim protectors today? No hand checking. Not allowed to be physical at all. All of the rules are catered to the wing player and ease of movment on the perimeter today. I'm not saying the D back in the day was better. All I'm saying is if I'm an athletic wing, I know which era I would prefer to play in.

There's a reason why teams have to spread the ball around more today instead of running lots of ISO's for their best player.

Removing Illegal D opened up a lot of stuff for defenses.

[knicksman]

So what changed in 91'? Why did the Bulls go from losing every year to Detroit for three years to finally defeating them? MJ was putting up big numbers in 88', 89' and 90' too. If it was all Mike, what happened when CHI went 6-12 against Detroit in the playoffs from 1988-1990? Pippen's 22/8/5 and Grant had nothing to do with it, right?

JOrdan finally trusted his teammates. I thought it was pretty well documented that jordan was playing 1on5 during his career

[ClipperRevival]

There's a reason why teams have to spread the ball around more today instead of running lots of ISO's for their best player.

Removing Illegal D opened up a lot of stuff for defenses.

What illegal D? A big cheating a bit? Anyways, if you say the defense is much better today than in MJs era, agree to disagree. I think in the modern era, say 1980s on, the skill level and level of comp has been great. So it's tough to have success against any kind of defense. But like I said, if I'm an athletic wing player, I know which era I would prefer to play in.

You think a guy like Westbrook would be nearly as devastating if a Oakley, Barkley or Malone were allowed to give real, hard fouls like they allowed in back in the days? Or get hand checked from half court on? The rules today are completely tailored for a guy like Westbrook to thrive.

And MJ would've been more devastating today. You also have to consider the lack of rim protectors today and how smaller the game has become in terms of the size of 4s and 5s. What I can admit is the league is more athletic today.

[ClipperRevival]

So what changed in 91'? Why did the Bulls go from losing every year to Detroit for three years to finally defeating them? MJ was putting up big numbers in 88', 89' and 90' too. If it was all Mike, what happened when CHI went 6-12 against Detroit in the playoffs from 1988-1990? Pippen's 22/8/5 and Grant had nothing to do with it, right?

No team stays on top forever. Detroit had been to 3 straignt finals and had already peaked and were on the decline while the Bulls were an ascending team. Also, the emergence of Pip and Grant along with MJ playing the rignt way.

[ralph_i_el]

What illegal D? A big cheating a bit? Anyways, if you say the defense is much better today than in MJs era, agree to disagree. I think in the modern era, say 1980s on, the skill level and level of comp has been great. So it's tough to have success against any kind of defense. But like I said, if I'm an athletic wing player, I know which era I would prefer to play in.

You think a guy like Westbrook would be nearly as devastating if a Oakley, Barkley or Malone were allowed to give real, hard fouls like they allowed in back in the days? Or get hand checked from half court on? The rules today are completely tailored for a guy like Westbrook to thrive.

And MJ would've been more devastating today. You also have to consider the lack of rim protectors today and how smaller the game has become in terms of the size of 4s and 5s. What I can admit is the league is more athletic today.

Westbrook is not the type of guy that getting rid of hand checking helps. If a player is big and strong for their position, chances are they would be the ones to benefit in an environment that allowed hand checking. Don't forget, offensive players had more freedom to make contact as well.

Real short list of dudes who could stay in front of westbrook and also effectively/consistently check him with hands and forearms. Much easier to guard a guy like that by having the freedom to rotate and get help in the paint.

[sdot_thadon]

2007 lebron had to score 29 of the last 30 to get by detroit. Mj hasn't ever done that.
2009 lebron put up 38 8 and 8 against the magic and still lost 4-2. Can't really see Mj improving on that performance either.
2010 I'm sure Mj could have played better against Boston but not so sure the cavs would have backed him up enough to win a title.

All the bullshit 3ball is posting is irrelevant.