Havlicek vs Pippen

[greatest-ever]

Whos higher on your all time list?

[GreggPopazit]

I don't think I can accurately evaluate Havlicek. My guess is Pippen had better defense though.

[Pushxx]

Havlicek no question.

[T_L_P]

I don't think I can accurately evaluate Havlicek. My guess is Pippen had better defense though.

Your guess? That's basically fact. :lol

[WillC]

Hondo was a great defender though.

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't think I can accurately evaluate Havlicek. My guess is Pippen had better defense though.

They are basically the same player. Havlicek was the 70's version of Pippen. Great defender, great all-around player, playmaker as a SF, winner of numerous championships, etc.

[oarabbus]

Lol really?

I'll take the guy with 8 rings and the FMVP. Too easy.

[pauk]

:biggums: Havlicek...

Dude is 8 of 8, by X of X in Finals logic he is GOAT..... screw Pippen, how bout Hondo vs Jordan? :)
In 99% of those Finals he was the leading scorer / best offensive player, while Bill Russell covered him defensively (even tho Havlicek was a great defender aswell) he completely took care of the offense for them, has an FMVP aswell (just got in time barely in 1969 when that award started)....

[greatest-ever]

Lol really?

I'll take the guy with 8 rings and the FMVP. Too easy.
So by your ring counting logic, Hondo>Most of the guys in the top 10.

Id take Hondo too but your logic is weak. And they are close for what its worth.

[bizil]

Gotta be Hondo! GOAT wise as well as peak. As stated before, he was the precursor to Pippen in many ways at the SF. Later on Pippen added Dr. J type size and athletic ability to the equation. But when it comes to the TOTAL PACKAGE at the SF on both sides on the rock, Bron is the only SF I would take over Hondo.

[CavaliersFTW]

Resume wise - Havlicek.

Who's the better player? Flip a coin.

[T_L_P]

Gotta be Hondo! GOAT wise as well as peak. As stated before, he was the precursor to Pippen in many ways at the SF. Later on Pippen added Dr. J type size and athletic ability to the equation. But when it comes to the TOTAL PACKAGE at the SF on both sides on the rock, Bron is the only SF I would take over Hondo.
:biggums:

[bizil]

When it comes to Pip, I've said it before and I've said it again. He was an alpha dog gene away from being the arguably the GOAT SF. And from being a top 10-15 GOAT. He was too skilled, too accomplished, and too revolutionary not for it to happen. Guys like Baylor, Barkley, and Malone are rated ahead of Pip on most GOAT lists WITHOUT even winning a ring.

So Pip is stuck with the perception that he was a great player BUT not a great scorer/killer. The problem with that is u have guys like a Hondo, MJ, Magic, Bird, Bron, West, Wade, etc. who were great all around players AND alpha dogs in one.

So those kind of guys will ALWAYS take precedence over Scottie. To all Pip fans out there, Im not shitting on him. I'm just stating he was DAMN CLOSE to being arguably the GOAT SF IF he showed a bit more brilliance scoring wise. He has more rings than Bird and Bron COMBINED!! So surely if he was seen on that level, he would be rated AHEAD OF BOTH on a GOAT list...

[bizil]

:biggums:

When it comes to offense and defense as a package, Bron is the ONLY SF who has done it better than Hondo. Overall at SF, Im taking Bird or Bron peak wise and GOAT wise. But in terms of two way shit, give me Bron and Hondo! Pip wasn't an alpha dog. Bird wasn't a great individual defender.

[T_L_P]

When it comes to offense and defense as a package, Bron is the ONLY SF who has done it better than Hondo. Overall at SF, Im taking Bird or Bron peak wise and GOAT wise. But in terms of two way shit, give me Bron and Hondo! Pip wasn't an alpha dog. Bird wasn't a great individual defender.

So you're saying in terms of two-way play Hondo is the second best SF? I can get behind that (though I don't necessarily agree).

But are you saying you'd draft Hondo over Bird? That's what it sounded like you were saying. That was I inserted the :biggums:.

[oarabbus]

So by your ring counting logic, Hondo>Most of the guys in the top 10.

Id take Hondo too but your logic is weak. And they are close for what its worth.

Rings don't say it all some of the other Celtic legends had 6-8 rings.... Havlicek had the FMVP.

Hondo >> Pippen

[houston]

pippen

[kshutts1]

I wish bizil posted in a more legible manner. He has some really good things to say.

But for an all time ranking? I don't know enough about Hondo to make a fully accurate statement, but I'd assume Hondo was the better player.

Hard to tell, though, since Hondo spent a lot of time in a sixth man role. Had some fabulous years as a starter/star, though.

[CavaliersFTW]

I wish bizil posted in a more legible manner. He has some really good things to say.

But for an all time ranking? I don't know enough about Hondo to make a fully accurate statement, but I'd assume Hondo was the better player.

Hard to tell, though, since Hondo spent a lot of time in a sixth man role. Had some fabulous years as a starter/star, though.
His 6th man role was played with starter minutes though, and he was closing those games. So not exactly the same diminished presence as other typical 6th men might have.

[greatest-ever]

When it comes to Pip, I've said it before and I've said it again. He was an alpha dog gene away from being the arguably the GOAT SF. And from being a top 10-15 GOAT. He was too skilled, too accomplished, and too revolutionary not for it to happen. Guys like Baylor, Barkley, and Malone are rated ahead of Pip on most GOAT lists WITHOUT even winning a ring.

So Pip is stuck with the perception that he was a great player BUT not a great scorer/killer. The problem with that is u have guys like a Hondo, MJ, Magic, Bird, Bron, West, Wade, etc. who were great all around players AND alpha dogs in one.

So those kind of guys will ALWAYS take precedence over Scottie. To all Pip fans out there, Im not shitting on him. I'm just stating he was DAMN CLOSE to being arguably the GOAT SF IF he showed a bit more brilliance scoring wise. He has more rings than Bird and Bron COMBINED!! So surely if he was seen on that level, he would be rated AHEAD OF BOTH on a GOAT list...
This post doesn't make sense to me.

Yes Pippen was a elite defender and all around player but he was nowhere near the offensive talent that a Lebron or Bird was. Even KD when he gets longevity will be ranked over Pippen. Bringing up the fact that he has more rings than Lebron and Bird combined is pointless as he was the clear 2nd option on all of them. Robert Horry has more rings than Dirk, KG, Barkley and Malone combined, i guess we should consider him on their level only if he had more "alpha dog" in him.

[greatest-ever]

Rings don't say it all some of the other Celtic legends had 6-8 rings.... Havlicek had the FMVP.

Hondo >> Pippen
Saying "Hondo>Pippen" isn't offering any sort of argument. Again i agree that Hondo is better but it's close and i don't really use rings as my reasoning. It's more off longevity and the fact that i think he was a little better in the playoffs.

Parker has 4 rings and a Fmvp so i guess Parker>Oscar since Oscar has less rings and no FMVP. :facepalm

[bizil]

This post doesn't make sense to me.

Yes Pippen was a elite defender and all around player but he was nowhere near the offensive talent that a Lebron or Bird was. Even KD when he gets longevity will be ranked over Pippen. Bringing up the fact that he has more rings than Lebron and Bird combined is pointless as he was the clear 2nd option on all of them. Robert Horry has more rings than Dirk, KG, Barkley and Malone combined, i guess we should consider him on their level only if he had more "alpha dog" in him.

U don't even understand WHAT THE HELL I WAS TALKING ABOUT!! I'm aware that Pippen wasn't on the level of Bird or Bron in terms of scoring. My point was IF HE WAS, he would have gone down as arguably the GOAT SF. Why?:

Six NBA titles
Arguably the GOAT perimeter defender
Two Gold Medals
Redefined the SF position
Seven Time All Star
Seven Time All NBA
All Star Game MVP
10 Time All Defensive Team

Pip had EPIC ACCOMPLISHMENTS!! And at one point was the best SF in the world!! So my point was that SCORING was the only thing keeping him from being a top 10-15 GOAT caliber player.

U bring up Horry! WHICH IS A PISS POOR EXAMPLE!! From an individual level, Horry was NEVER CONSIDERED an elite player. So of COURSE his seven rings aren't gonna take him far in a GOAT argument. Pippen was the top SF in the world and redefined his position. So as great as Pippen was, scoring kept him from being arguably the GOAT SF at one point.

And u bring up second options. Well look at some of the 2nd options on title teams:

Kobe
Dr. J
Wade
McHale
Magic
Big O
Shaq

So some 2nd options are ACTUALLY alpha dog kind of players. In today's game, Westbrook-Durant is a great example!! So the 2nd option argument for Pip that u bring up doesn't hold much weight EITHER!!

[dreamwarrior]

Havlicek could do everything Pippen did but more consistently and never broke down mentally. His defense was just as good as he had a better inside game

[greatest-ever]

U don't even understand WHAT THE HELL I WAS TALKING ABOUT!! I'm aware that Pippen wasn't on the level of Bird or Bron in terms of scoring. My point was IF HE WAS, he would have gone down as arguably the GOAT SF. Why?:

Six NBA titles
Arguably the GOAT perimeter defender
Two Gold Medals
Redefined the SF position
Seven Time All Star
Seven Time All NBA
All Star Game MVP
10 Time All Defensive Team

Pip had EPIC ACCOMPLISHMENTS!! And at one point was the best SF in the world!! So my point was that SCORING was the only thing keeping him from being a top 10-15 GOAT caliber player.

U bring up Horry! WHICH IS A PISS POOR EXAMPLE!! From an individual level, Horry was NEVER CONSIDERED an elite player. So of COURSE his seven rings aren't gonna take him far in a GOAT argument. Pippen was the top SF in the world and redefined his position. So as great as Pippen was, scoring kept him from being arguably the GOAT SF at one point.
I was only pointing out how stupid it was to bring up rings when it comes to the comparison of him with LBJ, and Bird.

Also, it's pointless to say "Well if Pippen was a better scorer he could be the GOAT SF!". If you dramatically increase an aspect of any player's game it can make them a much better player. Imagine if you gave Dirk Hakeem-like defense for example? He'd probably be the GOAT PF. But it's pointless to play these sort of games. Pippen wasn't in Lebron and Bird's galaxy as an offensive player so there's nothing he could've done to be on their level. And saying "if he had more alpha gene!" just makes no sense and adds to the stupidity of your argument.

[greatest-ever]

And u bring up second options. Well look at some of the 2nd options on title teams:

Kobe
Dr. J
Wade
McHale
Magic
Big O
Shaq

So some 2nd options are ACTUALLY alpha dog kind of players. In today's game, Westbrook-Durant is a great example!! So the 2nd option argument for Pip that u bring up doesn't hold much weight EITHER!!
I don't get what your point is with this. The reason i brought up Pippen being a 2nd option is because you counted rings when comparing him to Bird and Lebron who were clearly the 1st option and played at a much higher level than Pippen ever did.

[bizil]

I don't get what your point is with this. The reason i brought up Pippen being a 2nd option is because you counted rings when comparing him to Bird and Lebron who were clearly the 1st option and played at a much higher level than Pippen ever did.

You're lost!! U are lost big time!!

[bizil]

I was only pointing out how stupid it was to bring up rings when it comes to the comparison of him with LBJ, and Bird.

Also, it's pointless to say "Well if Pippen was a better scorer he could be the GOAT SF!". If you dramatically increase an aspect of any player's game it can make them a much better player. Imagine if you gave Dirk Hakeem-like defense for example? He'd probably be the GOAT PF. But it's pointless to play these sort of games. Pippen wasn't in Lebron and Bird's galaxy as an offensive player so there's nothing he could've done to be on their level. And saying "if he had more alpha gene!" just makes no sense and adds to the stupidity of your argument.


Bron and Bird are easily better players than Pip was. But in the all around sense, Pip was JUST AS GOOD as them. And he's the best defending SF of all time to boot. So OBVIOUSLY scoring is the key thing that separates Pip from Bird and Bron peak wise.

If Pippen was as deadly of a scorer as Bird or Bron, he would be considered just as good as them peak wise or damn close. Once u couple that with his other accomplishments, it's makes TOTAL SENSE that Pip could have been arguably the GOAT SF. At least until Bron would have passed by.

My point is that in many ways, Pip's resume stacks up to ANY SF EVER! So WHY IS he not rated close to Bron, Bird, Dr. J, or Hondo GOAT wise? Its because of the perception of his scoring ability.

[bizil]

Rings don't say it all some of the other Celtic legends had 6-8 rings.... Havlicek had the FMVP.

Hondo >> Pippen

Exactly!! Hondo was a GREAT PLAYER who also had the rings!! U couple that with Hondo's peak level, he's the choice over Pippen. I also agree that rings aren't the be all end all for GOAT status. But it's extremely important! Why do many people have Russ over Kareem and Wilt GOAT wise? Its because of rings! Peak wise, Kareem and Wilt are clearly better than Russ was.

[97 bulls]

Once again I have to be the voice of reason here. Hondo should be ranked ahead of Pippen because he accomplished more. But you guys line of reasoning is terrible. And plainly see the bias in some of these posters (especially Bizil).

Hondo was never the best player on a championship team. I dont see how he could be regarded as the teams best player when Cowens routinely finished ahead of him in the MVP voting. Even winning it once. Hondo couldnt sniff an MVP even in a time where two separate leagues shared the talent. Take away half of the leagues best players like Olajuwan, Robinson, in 94, and Pippen would've won the MVP. And DPOY in the same season

Hell Pippen would've been the number one option on those Celtics teams. And Hondo wouldve been the number two on the Bulls.

Comparing their stats are disingenuine. Hondo played over 40 min per, in an uptempo league and routinely shot in the low 40s/high 30s %. Hondo in the 90s would be scoring in the high teens.

It never ceases to amaze me how posters can take certain stats at face value like scoring, then argue to the death as to how to how the Bulls record setting 72 win tean isnt the best alltime team due to yada yada. Just hypocrites.

[bizil]

Once again I have to be the voice of reason here. Hondo should be ranked ahead of Pippen because he accomplished more. But you guys line of reasoning is terrible. And plainly see the bias in some of these posters (especially Bizil).

Hondo was never the best player on a championship team. I dont see how he could be regarded as the teams best player when Cowens routinely finished ahead of him in the MVP voting. Even winning it once. Hondo couldnt sniff an MVP even in a time where two separate leagues shared the talent. Take away half of the leagues best players like Olajuwan, Robinson, in 94, and Pippen would've won the MVP. And DPOY in the same season

Hell Pippen would've been the number one option on those Celtics teams. And Hondo wouldve been the number two on the Bulls.

Comparing their stats are disingenuine. Hondo played over 40 min per, in an uptempo league and routinely shot in the low 40s/high 30s %. Hondo in the 90s would be scoring in the high teens.

It never ceases to amaze me how posters can take certain stats at face value like scoring, then argue to the death as to how to how the Bulls record setting 72 win tean isnt the best alltime team due to yada yada. Just hypocrites.

But the key is Hondo showed more ACUMEN dominating scoring than Pippen did. If u have two great all around players floor game wise, the one who is the better scorer CAN BE A TIEBREAKER! It might determine who I would choose in a discussion. In this case, it gives the edge to Hondo.

Once again, ITS NOT ABOUT FIRST OR SECOND OPTION!! It's about your actual scoring ability AND HOW YOU APPLY IT!! Duos such as Shaq-Kobe, West-Baylor, Doc-Moses, Westbrook-Durant, Wade-Bron, Big O-Lew, and Magic-Kareem featured two alpha kind of scorers.

The WHOLE WORLD knew it too! If one guy was deemed "second option", everybody knew they were really an alpha. Pippen was never considered that kind of option. Not hating JUST THE FACTS!! I still consider him a great and revolutionary player.

In terms of MVP's, Shaq and Kobe ONLY WON ONE!! THE LOGO OF THE LEAGUE Jerry West NEVER won an MVP! So who cares if Hondo never won an MVP. He had enough other qualities OVER Pippen to take this argument. I do think its TELLING that Pippen has six rings BUT YET isn't regarded a top 20 GOAT player. Once again not dissing, but guys like Barkley WHO NEVER won a ring are rated ahead of Pippen routinely on a GOAT list. Why is that? PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT TO ME!!

[97 bulls]

But the key is Hondo showed more ACUMEN dominating scoring than Pippen did. If u have two great all around players floor game wise, the one who is the better scorer CAN BE A TIEBREAKER! It might determine who I would choose in a discussion. In this case, it gives the edge to Hondo.
No he didn't. He played in a different league. The tempo was faster. Players played more minutes. Its simple math. Give Pippen more minutes, and the opportunity to take more shots, and his scoring numbers are gonna skyrocket.


Once again, ITS NOT ABOUT FIRST OR SECOND OPTION!! It's about your actual scoring ability AND HOW YOU APPLY IT!! Duos such as Shaq-Kobe, West-Baylor, Doc-Moses, Westbrook-Durant, Wade-Bron, Big O-Lew, and Magic-Kareem featured two alpha kind of scorers.
Because they didn't play in an offense that stifles a players ability to score like the triangle. Remember why Jackson implemented the system, he did it in an effort to keep everyone involved. And its funny that you call Magic an "alpha", how many scoring explosions did he have?


The WHOLE WORLD knew it too! If one guy was deemed "second option", everybody knew they were really an alpha. Pippen was never considered that kind of option. Not hating JUST THE FACTS!! I still consider him a great and revolutionary player.

Because he played next to Michael Jordan, in an offense dedicated to getting everyone involved, in a league that didn't take as many shots. If your gonna take statistics at face value then you must feel that the Bulls that won 72 games are the best ever because at face value, they had the best win percentage ever right?



In terms of MVP's, Shaq and Kobe ONLY WON ONE!! THE LOGO OF THE LEAGUE Jerry West NEVER won an MVP! So who cares if Hondo never won an MVP. He had enough other qualities OVER Pippen to take this argument. I do think its TELLING that Pippen has six rings BUT YET isn't regarded a top 20 GOAT player. Once again not dissing, but guys like Barkley WHO NEVER won a ring are rated ahead of Pippen routinely on a GOAT list. Why is that? PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT TO ME!!
You're missing the point. I dont see how Hondo could've been considered the best player on his team when Cowens ROUTINELY (not once or twice) ROUTINELY finished ahead of him in MVP voting. I've explained this to you a million times bro. The top 25? Is based solely on opinion. I wouldn't take Barkley over Pippen because even though Barkley was more talented, he was lazy on defense, a cancer, and didn't take winning serious. And to this day, I can tell he still doesn't get it. He still doesn't see why Bob Knight cut him, believes he never won because, his teams weren't good enough, and why hes looked at the way he is in NBA circles.

Can you please be consistent in your argument. And mind you, im not disagrei with your opinion, I disagree with your logic.

[houston]

Hondo benefited from an era where all the ABA had all the best wing talent. Main reason I'll take Pippen due to the fact Pip was a better playmaker than Hondo. Hondo best seasons the celtics sucked.

[97 bulls]

Hondo benefited from an era where all the ABA had all the best wing talent. Main reason I'll take Pippen due to the fact Pip was a better playmaker than Hondo. Hondo best seasons the celtics sucked.
Yep. But on ISH, context is only viable when it helps an agenda. Right Biz?

[bizil]

Hondo benefited from an era where all the ABA had all the best wing talent. Main reason I'll take Pippen due to the fact Pip was a better playmaker than Hondo. Hondo best seasons the celtics sucked.

Most of Hondo's best years were BEFORE the guys like Doc, Thompson, and Gervin were in the ABA. Those guys didn't enter pro basketball until the 70's. Hondo's rookie year was 62-63. So Hondo was MUCH OLDER!! SO NO Hondo didn't benefit from that. The guys on his level or BETTER wing talent wise were still in the NBA for most of his prime years. Even if those guys were in the NBA, the Doctor is the only one I would take over Hondo.

[Marchesk]

Hondo benefited from an era where all the ABA had all the best wing talent. Main reason I'll take Pippen due to the fact Pip was a better playmaker than Hondo. Hondo best seasons the celtics sucked.

When the Celtics won 68 games in 72/73, Hondo led the team in scoring and assists while being third in rebounding. They ended up losing a 7 game series to the champion Knicks team in the ECF.

The year before, the Celtics won 56 games with Hondo leading in scoring and assists, and being second in rebounding. They also lost in the ECF to the Knicks.

Back in 65/66 for the Celtics 8th title in a row, Hondo was 2nd in scoring to Sam Jones, third in rebounding and fourth in assists. That was on 30.6 minutes a game. In the finals, he was second in scoring, rebounding and assists.

Of course in 69, He loses out to West for the FMVP despite the Celtics winning and him leading in scoring, second in assists and rebounding.

And then there was the 74 finals where the Celtics win the first championship sans Russell, and Hondo wins FMVP leading the team in scoring, third in rebounding and second in assists, and first in steals. That season Hondo lead the team in scoring and assists. So what you stated is false.

Show me where Pippen was doing that. Hondo played with two league MVPs, so that's not an excuse (saying that Pippen had to play second fiddle where Hondo didn't).

[Marchesk]

Hondo benefited from an era where all the ABA had all the best wing talent. Main reason I'll take Pippen due to the fact Pip was a better playmaker than Hondo. Hondo best seasons the celtics sucked.

You mean like Baylor, West, Oscar, Gus Johnson, Sam Jones, Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, Rick Barry (minus a few seasons), and Pete Maravich?

Are you freaking kidding me?

[bizil]

No he didn't. He played in a different league. The tempo was faster. Players played more minutes. Its simple math. Give Pippen more minutes, and the opportunity to take more shots, and his scoring numbers are gonna skyrocket.


Because they didn't play in an offense that stifles a players ability to score like the triangle. Remember why Jackson implemented the system, he did it in an effort to keep everyone involved. And its funny that you call Magic an "alpha", how many scoring explosions did he have?


Because he played next to Michael Jordan, in an offense dedicated to getting everyone involved, in a league that didn't take as many shots. If your gonna take statistics at face value then you must feel that the Bulls that won 72 games are the best ever because at face value, they had the best win percentage ever right?



You're missing the point. I dont see how Hondo could've been considered the best player on his team when Cowens ROUTINELY (not once or twice) ROUTINELY finished ahead of him in MVP voting. I've explained this to you a million times bro. The top 25? Is based solely on opinion. I wouldn't take Barkley over Pippen because even though Barkley was more talented, he was lazy on defense, a cancer, and didn't take winning serious. And to this day, I can tell he still doesn't get it. He still doesn't see why Bob Knight cut him, believes he never won because, his teams weren't good enough, and why hes looked at the way he is in NBA circles.

Can you please be consistent in your argument. And mind you, im not disagrei with your opinion, I disagree with your logic.

I'm ALWAYS CONSISTENT in my arguments!! U say all this shit about Hondo BUT YET he made all NBA first or second team 11 TIMES! And was a Finals MVP! It's not about being the best player on your team all the time. It's about YOUR ACTUAL SKILLS AND ABILITY!! Dr. J was the 2nd best player behind Moses Malone. But GUESS WHAT! He was still the 2nd best SF in the world!!

In my opinion, Hondo was a better scorer than Pippen. I would rather have him as my first option. I don't wanna hear about rules, pace, and all this shit!

And u talk about Magic? When did Pip EVER drop 42 points in the Finals as a rookie? If u know the game of basketball U KNOW Magic smokes Pippen in alpha dog level ability!! And Pippen over Barkley! LMAO!! Barkley ranks EASILY HIGHER on a GOAT list over Pippen!! And Barkley doesn't even have ANY RINGS!! And I"m aware that a GOAT is an opinion. Just like MVP AWARDS TOO!! U always bring up MVPs, but those are OPINIONS TOO! And regardless on a list, most hardcore basketball fans KNOW Barkley was a greater player than Pippen.

[bizil]

You mean like Baylor, West, Oscar, Gus Johnson, Sam Jones, Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, Rick Barry (minus a few seasons), and Pete Maravich?

Are you freaking kidding me?

Exactly!! I found that hilarious when I read it. The guys like Doc, Gervin, and Thompson were much younger. In Hondo's rookie year, Doc was only like 12 or 13 years old! The guys like Doc, Gervin, and DT were only in their early to mid 20's when the leagues were merged. Hondo was riding off into the HOF by that point.

[bizil]

When the Celtics won 68 games in 72/73, Hondo led the team in scoring and assists while being third in rebounding. They ended up losing a 7 game series to the champion Knicks team in the ECF.

The year before, the Celtics won 56 games with Hondo leading in scoring and assists, and being second in rebounding. They also lost in the ECF to the Knicks.

Back in 65/66 for the Celtics 8th title in a row, Hondo was 2nd in scoring to Sam Jones, third in rebounding and fourth in assists. That was on 30.6 minutes a game. In the finals, he was second in scoring, rebounding and assists.

Of course in 69, He loses out to West for the FMVP despite the Celtics winning and him leading in scoring, second in assists and rebounding.

And then there was the 74 finals where the Celtics win the first championship sans Russell, and Hondo wins FMVP leading the team in scoring, third in rebounding and second in assists, and first in steals. That season Hondo lead the team in scoring and assists. So what you stated is false.

Show me where Pippen was doing that. Hondo played with two league MVPs, so that's not an excuse (saying that Pippen had to play second fiddle where Hondo didn't).

Well said! Most basketball experts would tell u Hondo was a better scorer than Pippen. I figured that was obvious in general, but some people love debating that.

[bizil]

No he didn't. He played in a different league. The tempo was faster. Players played more minutes. Its simple math. Give Pippen more minutes, and the opportunity to take more shots, and his scoring numbers are gonna skyrocket.


Because they didn't play in an offense that stifles a players ability to score like the triangle. Remember why Jackson implemented the system, he did it in an effort to keep everyone involved. And its funny that you call Magic an "alpha", how many scoring explosions did he have?


Because he played next to Michael Jordan, in an offense dedicated to getting everyone involved, in a league that didn't take as many shots. If your gonna take statistics at face value then you must feel that the Bulls that won 72 games are the best ever because at face value, they had the best win percentage ever right?



You're missing the point. I dont see how Hondo could've been considered the best player on his team when Cowens ROUTINELY (not once or twice) ROUTINELY finished ahead of him in MVP voting. I've explained this to you a million times bro. The top 25? Is based solely on opinion. I wouldn't take Barkley over Pippen because even though Barkley was more talented, he was lazy on defense, a cancer, and didn't take winning serious. And to this day, I can tell he still doesn't get it. He still doesn't see why Bob Knight cut him, believes he never won because, his teams weren't good enough, and why hes looked at the way he is in NBA circles.

Can you please be consistent in your argument. And mind you, im not disagrei with your opinion, I disagree with your logic.

U love bringing up the Triangle! Don't u realize Kobe and Shaq dominated in the triangle!! AND IT WAS APPARENT that Kobe was a MUCH MORE DANGEROUS second option than Pippen ever was! So your triangle argument doesn't hold weight. Just accept the fact that Pip was a very good scorer. BUT NEVER A GREAT ONE!!

[Roundball_Rock]

Well said! Most basketball experts would tell u Hondo was a better scorer than Pippen. I figured that was obvious in general, but some people love debating that.

Hondo was a better scorer and shooter; Pippen was the better playmaker/passer, defender and athlete. Like I said earlier in the thread, they were very similar players with similar careers and resumes. There isn't much of a difference between the two overall or in specific areas since both were great all-around players. Hondo is slightly more accomplished than Pip and hence slightly higher on most GOAT lists but in an all-time draft Pip would go ahead of Hondo.

[97 bulls]

I'm ALWAYS CONSISTENT in my arguments!! U say all this shit about Hondo BUT YET he made all NBA first or second team 11 TIMES!
Right. Because Dr. J and Rick Barry were in the ABA. Hell he would've split the All-NBA award with George Gervin and George Mcginnis.


And was a Finals MVP! It's not about being the best player on your team all the time. It's about YOUR ACTUAL SKILLS AND ABILITY!! Dr. J was the 2nd best player behind Moses Malone. But GUESS WHAT! He was still the 2nd best SF in the world!!
True.


In my opinion, Hondo was a better scorer than Pippen. I would rather have him as my first option. I don't wanna hear about rules, pace, and all this shit!
Well you're going to. Notice how you don't want to discuss circumstances etc when it doesn't fit your gagenda. Ill ask this question again, you obviously must feel the 96 Bulls are the greatest single season team ever right? Because statistically, they were. BE CONSISTENT. Dont apply circumstances, context, and situation.


And u talk about Magic? When did Pip EVER drop 42 points in the Finals as a rookie?
When did Magic ever repeat that performance as far as scoring?


And Pippen over Barkley! LMAO!! Barkley ranks EASILY HIGHER on a GOAT list over Pippen!! And Barkley doesn't even have ANY RINGS!! And I"m aware that a GOAT is an opinion. Just like MVP AWARDS TOO!! U always bring up MVPs, but those are OPINIONS TOO! And regardless on a list, most hardcore basketball fans KNOW Barkley was a greater player than Pippen.
Do YOU feel Barkley was better because you feel that way? Or because of what the consensus*suggests?

I personally believe that Barkely was more talented than Pip, but he had too much baggage. I mean, would you take a beautiful woman who you know has killed her last three husbands based solely on looks? I wouldn't

[97 bulls]

Well said! Most basketball experts would tell u Hondo was a better scorer than Pippen. I figured that was obvious in general, but some people love debating that.
I disagree with your reasoning. I dont think Hondo is that much of a better scorer thN Pippen. Now if we were to just look solely at numbers? Sure. But if we peel back the onion? Its a lot closer than you want it to be.

[97 bulls]

U love bringing up the Triangle! Don't u realize Kobe and Shaq dominated in the triangle!! AND IT WAS APPARENT that Kobe was a MUCH MORE DANGEROUS second option than Pippen ever was! So your triangle argument doesn't hold weight. Just accept the fact that Pip was a very good scorer. BUT NEVER A GREAT ONE!!
What? Again. Only taking things at face value without context. Kobe never played in the Triangle when he played alongside Shaq under Phil Jackson. He ALWAYS danced to his own beat. So much that Jackson called him uncoachable and even wanted him traded. It got so bad that Shaq and Kobe couldn't play together. Look at the 2004 Finals.

Bryant even mentioned in a recent interview that Shaq wanted him to give him the ball and he would tell him no. Is that a part of running the Triangle?

[Roundball_Rock]

Regarding Kobe being a "much more dangerous" second option than Pippen, that is true--in theory. In practice Kobe went 24-29 without Shaq from 2000-2004 (Shaq was 25-6 without Kobe during the same period); Pippen went 51-21 without Jordan in 94' (Jordan went 24-11 without Pippen in 98'--so not a massive difference like with Shaq and Kobe). Pippen was a better leader than young Kobe and that offset 2001-2004 Kobe being a better player than 1991-1998 Pippen.

[bizil]

What? Again. Only taking things at face value without context. Kobe never played in the Triangle when he played alongside Shaq under Phil Jackson. He ALWAYS danced to his own beat. So much that Jackson called him uncoachable and even wanted him traded. It got so bad that Shaq and Kobe couldn't play together. Look at the 2004 Finals.

Bryant even mentioned in a recent interview that Shaq wanted him to give him the ball and he would tell him no. Is that a part of running the Triangle?

Of course they used the Triangle with Kobe and Shaq!! There were times when Kobe was allowed to freelance. But BEST BELIEVE the triangle was the primary offense. Phil being the genius he is allowed Kobe to switch it up. But the primary offense was the triangle. Shaq would put u on Shaqtin a Fool for saying such a foolish statement!!

[Round Mound]

I dont mind if people choose Havlicek over Pippen but people who saw Pippen play in his prime, know how good he really was. Pippen sacrificed stats for wins. There is a reason why Jordan never wanted to play without Pippen in his team.

[Roundball_Rock]

I dont mind if people choose Havlicek over Pippen but people who saw Pippen play in his prime, know how good he really was. Pippen sacrificed stats for wins. There is a reason why Jordan never wanted to play without Pippen in his team.

Http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GL8QXYUKatA/T3ORe07boBI/AAAAAAAAA3g/WbX4xEzYmig/s320/the-rock-clapping.gif

[bizil]

Regarding Kobe being a "much more dangerous" second option than Pippen, that is true--in theory. In practice Kobe went 24-29 without Shaq from 2000-2004 (Shaq was 25-6 without Kobe during the same period); Pippen went 51-21 without Jordan in 94' (Jordan went 24-11 without Pippen in 98'--so not a massive difference like with Shaq and Kobe). Pippen was a better leader than young Kobe and that offset 2001-2004 Kobe being a better player than 1991-1998 Pippen.

U make good points no doubt. If u put peak Pippen in place of Kobe of those Laker teams, they would still win rings. And in terms of being compatible, Pippen would actually be a better fit. U would get 22 points, great point forward play, and epic defense. Shaq-Kobe didn't get along and left rings on the table. Pip and Shaq would have got along great and won at least 4-5 rings. Pip AT TIMES was a better leader than young Kobe. I STILL remember Pippen quitting on his team back in the day. That's not great leadership. But Pip's floor game was second to none.

[97 bulls]

Of course they used the Triangle with Kobe and Shaq!! There were times when Kobe was allowed to freelance. But BEST BELIEVE the triangle was the primary offense. Phil being the genius he is allowed Kobe to switch it up. But the primary offense was the triangle. Shaq would put u on Shaqtin a Fool for saying such a foolish statement!!
Way to totally not respond to my point. Its my understanding that you feel Kobe was able to score a lot of points in the Triangle. My response is that he scored most of his points on his own. So much that he fought with both Jackson and Shaq on who shoukd be the first option. Now im not saying he never played within the confines of the offense, but it was ckear that Bryant very often went rogue in an effort to score points. Often to the detriment of his team. Jackson wanted him to play the Pippen role. He didn't. And in my opinion, it cost him at least two more rings.

[houston]

You mean like Baylor, West, Oscar, Gus Johnson, Sam Jones, Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, Rick Barry (minus a few seasons), and Pete Maravich?

Are you freaking kidding me?


still weak compared aba wing talent. hell even rick barry stated that.

[97 bulls]

U make good points no doubt. If u put peak Pippen in place of Kobe of those Laker teams, they would still win rings. And in terms of being compatible, Pippen would actually be a better fit. U would get 22 points, great point forward play, and epic defense. Shaq-Kobe didn't get along and left rings on the table. Pip and Shaq would have got along great and won at least 4-5 rings. Pip AT TIMES was a better leader than young Kobe. I STILL remember Pippen quitting on his team back in the day. That's not great leadership. But Pip's floor game was second to none.
See. An agenda post. Youre talking about one play. In a stellar 18 year career. ONE play. And here's where I would like for you to be consistent. If you're gonna question Pippens leadership based on one play, how can you call Magic Johnson after costing the Lakers a championship in 84? Or losing to the Suns in 90 even though he was a heavy favorite. See the inconsistency? Why do you overlook Magics transgressions but hold Pippen accountable for his?

[HOoopCityJones]

What? Again. Only taking things at face value without context. Kobe never played in the Triangle when he played alongside Shaq under Phil Jackson. He ALWAYS danced to his own beat. So much that Jackson called him uncoachable and even wanted him traded. It got so bad that Shaq and Kobe couldn't play together. Look at the 2004 Finals.

Bryant even mentioned in a recent interview that Shaq wanted him to give him the ball and he would tell him no. Is that a part of running the Triangle?

:biggums:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

See. An agenda post. Youre talking about one play. In a stellar 18 year career. ONE play. And here's where I would like for you to be consistent. If you're gonna question Pippens leadership based on one play, how can you call Magic Johnson after costing the Lakers a championship in 84? Or losing to the Suns in 90 even though he was a heavy favorite. See the inconsistency? Why do you overlook Magics transgressions but hold Pippen accountable for his?
Hold on now. Since when did playing bad in a series equal quitting on your team? As far as I know, Magic never intentionally sat out a game, in the closing seconds, because he wasn't getting and/or shooting the ball. If having a tough series is the same thing to you, then Pippen would have a number of asterisks during the second three-peat along with his stint in Portland...

I get what you're trying to say, but your example was poor dude.

[97 bulls]

:biggums:
That was wrong. And extreme. If you look at my next post I did say that Bryant routinely strayed away from the Lakers offense. Id be lying if I said he did it exclusively.

[97 bulls]

Hold on now. Since when did playing bad in a series equal quitting on your team? As far as I know, Magic never intentionally sat out a game, in the closing seconds, because he wasn't getting and/or shooting the ball. If having a tough series is the same thing to you, then Pippen would have a number of asterisks during the second three-peat along with his stint in Portland...

I get what you're trying to say, but your example was poor dude.
Id agree. But that wasn't my point. I consider Johnson to be one of the greatest clutch players ever. But he did have his mishaps. But I wouldn't hold it against him. Based on his whole body of work. The same goes for Pippen. I don't think what Pippen did sitting out should totally trump all he did over the course of his whole career.

Ti summarize, if you feel Pippen wasnt a leader due to one play, then surely you must feel Magic wasnt clutch due to what happend in 84 and 90.

[Round Mound]

People Forget How Much Pippen Had To Sacrifice STAT WISE In Order For His Team To Win and For Jordan To Shine as He Did.

-Pippen Was and Is Till Today: The GOAT Perimeter Defender Ever (Close by "young" Pistons era Dennis Rodman).
-Pippen Was and Is Till Today: One of The GOAT Coast To Coast Ballhandling and Catch and Finish Forwards of All Time (Dr J, Worthy, Sampson, Chambers, Barkley, K Malone)
-Pippen Was and Is Till Today: One of The GOAT Point-Forward Playmaking and Passing Forwards of All Time
-Pippen Was Among The Best Rebounding SFs of His Time
-Pippen Was a 21-23 PPG Scorer on 47-49% FG Had He Played As The Man On His Teams.
-Pippen Revolutionized The Point-Forward Play Being The 1st ORIGINAL MODERN-BALLHANDLING-PLAYMAKING FORWARD OF THE 90s

***Pippen Was Doing All This WHILE GUARDING THE OTHER TEAMS USUAL BEST OFFENSIVE PLAYER: 1s 2s 3s and 4s.

***You Know How Much Energy That Requires Per Game? Per Season? Per Post Season? Per Finals?

-Pippen Also Was One Of The GOAT BASKBALL ATHLETEs in Terms of SPEED, QUICKNESS, AGILITY, LEAPING ABILITIES AND ACROBATICs....

Had Pippen Been One Another Team All His Career He Would Have Had Similar Numbers To Pre-Injury GRANT HILL (maybe less efficient scoring but MUCH BETTER DEFENSE) 23-8-6-2.5-1.0 LIKE NUMBERS

***MJ himself required the Bulls to keep Pippen in order for him to come back in 94-95.