Michael Jeffrey Jordan is the GOAT because he developed his team from the ground up.

[JerrySeinfeld]

He took a team of nobodies with a shit coach, lived with the hand he was dealt, and then started developing his team from the ground up.

Pippen wasn't shit until he came to Chicago and started playing next to the GOAT. The Bulls had to develop themselves into a perennial contender and did that by building a team that could grow together and more importantly grow around Jordan, the GOAT.

Doug Collins was a shit coach but Jordan hung in there, and waited until their assistant coach, some guy named Phil Jackson, developed into head coaching material and could take over the lead role.

This is what makes Jordan the GOAT and makes Bird and Kobe #2 and #3 respectively, for players who played in the modern era. They were drafted just as kids with potential and then completely took charge of their organizations and catapulted them into multi championship winning franchises... Cleveland tried to do that with LeBron and it turns out that LeGM and LeChoke is not a good guy to have running the show if you want to win rings. You really just need a Pat Riley type of figure who will have the balls to tell LeBron to sit down, quit being a bitch, quit bailing when the going gets tough, and let the GM do his job and develop a team that can have sustained success... Of course Riley does publicly say that and LeBron just leaves because he can't handle being publicly coached like Jordan, Kobe, and Bird could. Oh well, what can you do bruh? Maybe Wiggins will restore order and develop the T'Wolves into a championship franchise...

Top 5 all time based off this criterion:

#1 Jordan
#2 Bird
#3 Kobe
#4 Duncan
#5 Hakeem
#6 Wiggins?

[Eric Cartman]

Pippen wasn't shit?

Nikka wasn't even in the league :lol

[SugarHill]

Pippen wasn't shit?

Nikka wasn't even in the league :lol
:oldlol:

[JerrySeinfeld]

Pippen wasn't shit?

Nikka wasn't even in the league :lol

You know what I mean....

If some shit, doormat franchise takes Pippen in that draft then he goes down in history as a nobody. A Nicolas Batum.

Jordan had the leadership qualities to not only maximize the potential of everyone around him but also to develop positive winning traits in those around him.... He led by example and by way of not letting his teammates slack off, **** around, or EVER lose sight of the ultimate goal: winning an NBA championship.

Compare that to how LeCramp leads? "Hey... uh... this is one of the biggest sports spectacles in um... sports spectacle history... and it's cause of me! But... I couldn't do it without you guys so uh... team on 3!" The diva is always caught up in the attention, worried about the wrong things, worried about how he is perceived or his image... while Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, and Wiggins? couldn't care less.

[lilteapot]

Pippen wasn't shit?

Nikka wasn't even in the league :lol
:lol OP has 0 Basketball IQ.

[JerrySeinfeld]

:lol OP has 0 Basketball IQ.

:lol And could still whoop your ass 1 on 1

[Crose]

op is russwest0 btw

[lilteapot]

:lol And could still whoop your ass 1 on 1
let's play each other then you punk bitch

[JerrySeinfeld]

op is russwest0 btw

another clown saying this shit. will do any IP check, whatever, to prove I am not whoever this guy is.

Some clown is even posting pictures of some guy and angrily? directing them at me like I'm him when I'm like :wtf:

Whoever this russwest is, he gives the term "rent free" a whole new meaning... I've seen so many ****** getting mad at me over this guy

[JerrySeinfeld]

let's play each other then you punk bitch

If you lived near me I would be driving up to a gym right now... Would you?

I ain't scared of anyone on ISH.... more than willing to bet that the average user here is a basement dwelling, monster drinking, pot smoking, cheeto eating junkie that couldn't hold a candle to my on the court abilities.

[JT123]

op is russwest0 btw
Dude's not even trying to hide it anymore. :oldlol:
Why did you have the mods delete the pic I posted in here OP? It's like you're insecure about your looks or something.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Dude's not even trying to hide it anymore. :oldlol:
Why did you have the mods delete the pic I posted in here OP? It's like you're insecure about your looks or something.

this is the guy I was talking about :roll:

thinks he's "exposing" me or some shit by posting some guys picture and personal info

[GreggPopazit]

Wiggins already #6 all time huh? Well, isn't that special.

[lilteapot]

If you lived near me I would be driving up to a gym right now... Would you?

I ain't scared of anyone on ISH.... more than willing to bet that the average user here is a basement dwelling, monster drinking, pot smoking, cheeto eating junkie that couldn't hold a candle to my on the court abilities.
I would meet you anywhere anytime you pencilneck dicksucking son of a AIDS-infested whore

come to NYC and play me bitch

[f0und]

kobe doesnt belong with jordan and bird. why the heck would he leave the lakers? he got drafted to the yankees of basketball with an already top tier roster. i dont think any other alltime great(and i mean that loosely when referring to kobe) has ever been drafted to a more favorable position to succeed.

[GreggPopazit]

kobe doesnt belong with jordan and bird. why the heck would he leave the lakers? he got drafted to the yankees of basketball with an already top tier roster. i dont think any other alltime great(and i mean that loosely when referring to kobe) has ever been drafted to a more favorable position to succeed.

He joined a team with Shaq already on it, and is somehow categorized with players who developed their teams "from the ground up." :yaohappy:

[OnFire]

lol ok. I know this is a troll and MJ sure goat...

But.. he inherited a decent coach, then got him fired, then waited until pippen was brought to the team and Horace Grant, and some of the best 3pt pg's in history of the game. Then he quit. They brought in one of the first/best Euro players in the world in Toni Kukoc. Then he came back and requested a 3rd HOFer in Dennis Rodman.

I swear people have the most made up history of their favorite players.

[JerrySeinfeld]

lol ok. I know this is a troll and MJ sure goat...

But.. he inherited a decent coach, then got him fired, then waited until pippen was brought to the team and Horace Grant, and some of the best 3pt pg's in history of the game. Then he quit. They brought in one of the first/best Euro players in the world in Toni Kukoc. Then he came back and requested a 3rd HOFer in Dennis Rodman.

I swear people have the most made up history of their favorite players.

You literally just described what I'm talking about. Developing a team from the ground up. Those names that you brought up to downplay Jordan only sound great in a historical context because they are associated with Jordan.

[GreggPopazit]

lol ok. I know this is a troll and MJ sure goat...

But.. he inherited a decent coach, then got him fired, then waited until pippen was brought to the team and Horace Grant, and some of the best 3pt pg's in history of the game. Then he quit. They brought in one of the first/best Euro players in the world in Toni Kukoc. Then he came back and requested a 3rd HOFer in Dennis Rodman.

I swear people have the most made up history of their favorite players.

Pippen is an all-time great. Rodman is a superb role player. Horace and Toni are good, but you talk about them as if they are also all-time greats. Also, Jordan's first 3-peat is extra impressive, because Pippen had not entered his prime, Horace was no Rodman, and the rest of the team was not nearly as stacked as the 2nd 3-peat.

[ralph_i_el]

Doug Collins was a shit coach :rolleyes:
MJ "made" Pippen:rolleyes:
Bird was just a "Kid with potential":rolleyes:


MJ didn't do shit when his team wasn't stacked
Neither did Bron

Chicago's front office put an elite squad around MJ, with the GOAT coach

Cleveland's front office put guys like Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Anderson Varejao, and Big-Z around LeBron.

what young players were on Cleveland for Lebron to "make" into a Hall of Famer, like you allege MJ did for Pippen (which is horseshit anyways)?

on and this "MJ waited it out" shit is nonsense. Unrestricted free agency DIDN'T EVEN EXIST until multiple years AFTER the Bulls drafted Pippen.

[3ball]

MJ didn't do shit when his team wasn't stacked
Neither did Bron


MJ did a whole hell of a lot more than Lebron though:


Thru Age 29 - Playoff Averages

Lebron: 28.0 PPG / 6.4 APG / 48.2% FG / 33.3% 3 PT
Jordan: 34.7 PPG / 6.6 APG / 50.1% FG / 35.2% 3 PT


Thru Age 29 - Finals Averages

Lebron: 24.1 PPG / 6.4 APG / 46.3% FG / 31.2% 3 PT
Jordan: 36.3 PPG / 7.9 APG / 52.6% FG / 40.7% 3 PT

[ralph_i_el]

MJ did a whole hell of a lot more than Lebron though:


Thru Age 29 - Playoff Averages

Lebron: 28.0 PPG / 6.4 APG / 48.2% FG / 33.3% 3 PT
Jordan: 34.7 PPG / 6.6 APG / 50.1% FG / 35.2% 3 PT


Thru Age 29 - Finals Averages

Lebron: 24.1 PPG / 6.4 APG / 46.3% FG / 31.2% 3 PT
Jordan: 36.3 PPG / 7.9 APG / 52.6% FG / 40.7% 3 PT

Lebron's per-100 possession playoff stats for that time period are better being that he played in a slower era.

[Budadiiii]

Thru Age 29 - Finals Averages

Lebron: 24.1 PPG / 6.4 APG / 46.3% FG / 31.2% 3 PT
Jordan: 36.3 PPG / 7.9 APG / 52.6% FG / 40.7% 3 PT
http://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/ihjgk7lrugjvn.gif

[JerrySeinfeld]

MJ did a whole hell of a lot more than Lebron though:


Thru Age 29 - Playoff Averages

Lebron: 28.0 PPG / 6.4 APG / 48.2% FG / 33.3% 3 PT
Jordan: 34.7 PPG / 6.6 APG / 50.1% FG / 35.2% 3 PT


Thru Age 29 - Finals Averages

Lebron: 24.1 PPG / 6.4 APG / 46.3% FG / 31.2% 3 PT
Jordan: 36.3 PPG / 7.9 APG / 52.6% FG / 40.7% 3 PT

Those Finals averages differences...

:biggums:

[Budadiiii]

Those Finals averages differences...

:biggums:
"LeBron = GOAT"

http://i.imgur.com/KiGKjuA.gif





Not even top 15

[G-train]

He took a team of nobodies with a shit coach, lived with the hand he was dealt, and then started developing his team from the ground up.

Pippen wasn't shit until he came to Chicago and started playing next to the GOAT. The Bulls had to develop themselves into a perennial contender and did that by building a team that could grow together and more importantly grow around Jordan, the GOAT.

Doug Collins was a shit coach but Jordan hung in there, and waited until their assistant coach, some guy named Phil Jackson, developed into head coaching material and could take over the lead role.

This is what makes Jordan the GOAT and makes Bird and Kobe #2 and #3 respectively, for players who played in the modern era. They were drafted just as kids with potential and then completely took charge of their organizations and catapulted them into multi championship winning franchises... Cleveland tried to do that with LeBron and it turns out that LeGM and LeChoke is not a good guy to have running the show if you want to win rings. You really just need a Pat Riley type of figure who will have the balls to tell LeBron to sit down, quit being a bitch, quit bailing when the going gets tough, and let the GM do his job and develop a team that can have sustained success... Of course Riley does publicly say that and LeBron just leaves because he can't handle being publicly coached like Jordan, Kobe, and Bird could. Oh well, what can you do bruh? Maybe Wiggins will restore order and develop the T'Wolves into a championship franchise...

Top 5 all time based off this criterion:

#1 Jordan
#2 Bird
#3 Kobe
#4 Duncan
#5 Hakeem
#6 Wiggins?

The owner and GM built the team. Starting with the drafting of key player Jordan.

[GreggPopazit]

Doug Collins was a shit coach :rolleyes:


Evidence: Couldn't win a championship with Jordan.

[knicksman]

Fact:

bran: 2/5
Jordan:6/6

[lilteapot]

Evidence: Couldn't win a championship with Jordan.

not his fault. 89 ECF game 6 pippen leaves the game in the first minute and they probably would have won if he was healthy

[Eric Cartman]

Ah, one of them classic troll threads that end up as a jordan vs lebron discussion.

If I had a nickel...

[3ball]

Lebron played in a slower era.


Today's pace is 93.8, which is the same as the Bulls played during Jordan's career:


Bulls Pace:

1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)





Lebron's per-100 possession playoff stats for that time period are better


Per-100 Possession Stats Thru Age 29, Playoffs:


Lebron: 36.3 PPG / 8.4 APG / 46.3% FG / 33.3% 3 PT / 116 ORtg
Jordan: 43.9 PPG / 8.4 APG / 50.1% FG / 35.2% 3 PT / 119 ORtg
.

[KevinNYC]

Doug Collins was a shit coach but Jordan hung in there, and waited until their assistant coach, some guy named Phil Jackson, developed into head coaching material and could take over the lead role.
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

Some guy who happened to a member of two NBA champions and played under one of the NBA's greatest coaches ever. A guy who was smart enough to give Jordan a system that he could win with (http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/winter_pippenpaxson_110812.html) IF Jordan could learn to trust his teammates? A guy who was already being talking about as the next coach of the Knicks a (http://www.nytimes.com/1989/06/03/sports/sports-of-the-times-phil-jackson-deserves-a-shot.html)nd getting accolades as a defensive guru even before he became a head coach.

[QUOTE]It wasn

[3ball]

Thru Age 29 - Playoff Averages

Lebron: 28.0 PPG / 6.4 APG / 48.2% FG / 33.3% 3 PT
Jordan: 34.7 PPG / 6.6 APG / 50.1% FG / 35.2% 3 PT


Thru Age 29 - Finals Averages

Lebron: 24.1 PPG / 6.4 APG / 46.3% FG / 31.2% 3 PT
Jordan: 36.3 PPG / 7.9 APG / 52.6% FG / 40.7% 3 PT



Those Finals averages differences...

:biggums:


I know - In the Finals, Lebron needed 1.5 games to match 1 game of production from Jordan - an entire extra half of basketball.

[ralph_i_el]

Today's pace is 93.8, which is the same as the Bulls played during Jordan's career:


Bulls Pace:

1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)



Per-100 Possession Stats Thru Age 29, Playoffs:


Lebron: 36.3 PPG / 8.4 APG / 46.3% FG / 33.3% 3 PT / 116 ORtg
Jordan: 43.9 PPG / 8.4 APG / 50.1% FG / 35.2% 3 PT / 119 ORtg
.

>not listing rebounds
>acting like 4-6% isn't a significant difference in pace
>acting like LeBron didn't play on bottom 1/3 pace teams EVERY season on the Cavs. (only above 91 ONCE)
>Posting MJ's inflated ORtg without the accompanying high DRtg (surprise, Bron significantly lower!)


stay cherry picking bro:applause: MJ played at a 6-10% higher pace when he was putting up crazy insane stats

[JerrySeinfeld]

A guy who was smart enough to give Jordan a system that he could win with

Wow, he found a way to win championships with Michael Jordan!

:coleman:

[deja vu]

Agree. Jordan led an irrelevant, losing franchise to 2 3-peats and become the top 3/4 GOAT franchises in NBA history.

You look at other GOAT candidates and see that they were either drafted to already great franchises or to losing ones but without achieving great success. Wilt went to the 76ers and won just 1 title. Russell already had the pieces to a dynasty by the time he got to the Celtics. Kareem went to the Bucks and had limited success. Bird and Magic went to already great teams.

Jordan had a bunch of nobodies at first and proceeded to rape an entire decade. :lol Yeah the Bulls organization helped fill in the pieces of a dynasty but how did they fare after MJ retired? Yup, they spent the next decade sucking. :lol

[KevinNYC]

Wow, he found a way to win championships with Michael Jordan!

:coleman:
Something Jordan never did without Phil Jackson and Tex Winter. And they did it my demanding that Jordan change his style and learn something new.

Teams win championships. That's always been the case.

[KevinNYC]

Agree. Jordan led an irrelevant, losing franchise to 2 3-peats and become the top 3/4 GOAT franchises in NBA history.

You look at other GOAT candidates and see that they were either drafted to already great franchises or to losing ones but without achieving great success. Wilt went to the 76ers and won just 1 title. Russell already had the pieces to a dynasty by the time he got to the Celtics. Kareem went to the Bucks and had limited success. Bird and Magic went to already great teams.

Jordan had a bunch of nobodies at first and proceeded to rape an entire decade. :lol Yeah the Bulls organization helped fill in the pieces of a dynasty but how did they fare after MJ retired? Yup, they spent the next decade sucking. :lol
1979 Boston Celtics
Record: 29-53

1980 Boston Celtics
Record: 61-21

Also how big was the dropoff the first year Jordan left the Bulls?


Jordan's awesome, but claiming he was the guy who developed the team is ridiculous.

[Roundball_Rock]

Something Jordan never did without Phil Jackson and Tex Winter. And they did it my demanding that Jordan change his style and learn something new.

Teams win championships. That's always been the case.



Jordan's awesome, but claiming he was the guy who developed the team is ridiculous.

Exactly. The team pulled off a trade to have Seattle draft Pippen for Chicago at #5; Pip would have been gone at #6 had they failed (CHI's highest pick was #8). The team drafted Grant at #10 the same year--MJ wanted to draft Joe Wolf :oldlol: . The team traded Oakley for Cartwright--MJ was opposed to it. The team hired Phil Jackson and Tex Winter. Phil Jackson and Tex Winter taught MJ how to playing winning basketball. The team kept retooling the roster. The only players on all 6 title teams were Pippen and Jordan. The team got Kukoc from Europe. The team signed Kerr when he was an unknown 12th man on a 21 win team. The team traded for Rodman in a big gamble after the Bulls were owned on the interior and glass by Orlando in the ECSF in 95'.

Yet it was all MJ "building" the team? :roll: Jordan mythologists are ridiculous. Jordan can't build a team a decent team let alone a championship dynasty. Ask Washington and Charlotte.

[ralph_i_el]

Exactly. The team pulled off a trade to have Seattle draft Pippen for Chicago at #5; Pip would have been gone at #6 had they failed (CHI's highest pick was #8). The team drafted Grant at #10 the same year--MJ wanted to draft Joe Wolf :oldlol: . The team traded Oakley for Cartwright--MJ was opposed to it. The team hired Phil Jackson and Tex Winter. Phil Jackson and Tex Winter taught MJ how to playing winning basketball. The team kept retooling the roster. The only players on all 6 title teams were Pippen and Jordan. The team got Kukoc from Europe. The team signed Kerr when he was an unknown 12th man on a 21 win team. The team traded for Rodman in a big gamble after the Bulls were owned on the interior and glass by Orlando in the ECSF in 95'.

Yet it was all MJ "building" the team? :roll: Jordan mythologists are ridiculous. Jordan can't build a team a decent team let alone a championship dynasty. Ask Washington and Charlotte.

^This

Nobody (sane) really thinks LeBron or Kobe is better than MJ. Somebody has to keep the MJythologists in check

[LeBird]

Jordan shouldn't be in this discussion. Without Pip or Phil Jackson, Jordan struggles to get to .500.

If he could develop a team the Charlotte Hornet fans would appreciate it.

[RRR3]

If LeBron sucks so much, why do idiots like OP continuously compare him to Michael ****ing Jordan?

If LeBron is so bad, why do you have to use the consensus GOAT to make him look bad?



:confusedshrug:

[Round Mound]

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

Some guy who happened to a member of two NBA champions and played under one of the NBA's greatest coaches ever. A guy who was smart enough to give Jordan a system that he could win with (http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/winter_pippenpaxson_110812.html) IF Jordan could learn to trust his teammates? A guy who was already being talking about as the next coach of the Knicks a (http://www.nytimes.com/1989/06/03/sports/sports-of-the-times-phil-jackson-deserves-a-shot.html)nd getting accolades as a defensive guru even before he became a head coach.

:applause:

[nba_55]

Agree. Jordan led an irrelevant, losing franchise to 2 3-peats and become the top 3/4 GOAT franchises in NBA history.

You look at other GOAT candidates and see that they were either drafted to already great franchises or to losing ones but without achieving great success. Wilt went to the 76ers and won just 1 title. Russell already had the pieces to a dynasty by the time he got to the Celtics. Kareem went to the Bucks and had limited success. Bird and Magic went to already great teams.

Jordan had a bunch of nobodies at first and proceeded to rape an entire decade. :lol Yeah the Bulls organization helped fill in the pieces of a dynasty but how did they fare after MJ retired? Yup, they spent the next decade sucking. :lol

Celtics only started to win when Russell joined them, I think they didn't even make the playoffs before he joined the team, I'm not sure.

[nba_55]

Jordan shouldn't be in this discussion. Without Pip or Phil Jackson, Jordan struggles to get to .500.

If he could develop a team the Charlotte Hornet fans would appreciate it.

:applause: :applause: :applause: 1-9 without Pippen. He needed a great leader in Pippen and the greatest coach of all-time to win. He would be another ringless star like Barkley without those 2. He was a lucky guy that Jordan dude.

[KirbyPls]

If LeBron sucks so much, why do idiots like OP continuously compare him to Michael ****ing Jordan?

If LeBron is so bad, why do you have to use the consensus GOAT to make him look bad?



:confusedshrug:

:applause: :applause: :applause:

MJ is GOAT, but it's telling that the only player consistently put forth to put Lebron down is also consensus GOAT. :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Celtics only started to win when Russell joined them, I think they didn't even make the playoffs before he joined the team, I'm not sure.

Under Auerbach the Celtics didn't make the Finals for 6 straight years before Russell joined the team, then after winning 11 titles in 13 years they missed the playoffs two years in a row after he retired

[nba_55]

Under Auerbach the Celtics didn't make the Finals for 6 straight years before Russell joined the team, then after winning 11 titles in 13 years they missed the playoffs two years in a row after he retired

Oh wow :applause: :applause: :applause: I just googled, Russell even won as player-coach :oldlol: :oldlol: Russell>> MJ by the criterias MJ fans use to make their GOAT list.

[Straight_Ballin]

If the Bulls were so stacked why did Jordan need to average 41ppg in the finals to win it? Lol...go back to the drawing board fruit loop.

Jordan was like nothing they'd never seen before.
He'd make you eat Monopoly and shit out connect four.

[nba_55]

If the Bulls were so stacked why did Jordan need to average 41ppg in the finals to win it? Lol...go back to the drawing board fruit loop.

Jordan was like nothing they'd never seen before.
He'd make you eat Monopoly and shit out connect four.

If he scored less, they would still win, someone else would score. 55 games without Jordan, that's stacked as ****. Heat was considered the most stacked team in history last season and they can't even win 40 games without Lebron.

[guy]

It's funny how incredibly stupid the "Jordan never won without Pippen and Phil so he would've never win without them" argument is yet so many people don't see the flaws in it and actually think there's sound logic behind it.

[Smoke117]

Under Auerbach the Celtics didn't make the Finals for 6 straight years before Russell joined the team, then after winning 11 titles in 13 years they missed the playoffs two years in a row after he retired

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Kevin-Garnett-Reaction-at-2013-Dunk-Contest.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

If he scored less, they would still win, someone else would score. 55 games without Jordan, that's stacked as ****. Heat was considered the most stacked team in history last season and they can't even win 40 games without Lebron.

They may not even win 35. :lol


If he could develop a team the Charlotte Hornet fans would appreciate it.

Exactly. He can't even develop consistent 40 win teams in Charlotte and could not do so in D.C. either.


Nobody (sane) really thinks LeBron or Kobe is better than MJ. Somebody has to keep the MJythologists in check

MJythologists! I like it.


Under Auerbach the Celtics didn't make the Finals for 6 straight years before Russell joined the team, then after winning 11 titles in 13 years they missed the playoffs two years in a row after he retired

Good points. People act like Russell joined a dynasty. Russell, Wilt, KAJ, Bird, Shaq, LeBron, MJ all joined lousy teams. That is how the draft works. The only exceptions are Kobe (mid-pick and from high school) and Magic. MJythologists act as if only MJ joined a poor team.

[OldSchoolBBall]

If he scored less, they would still win, someone else would score. 5

Who would score more? Pippen, who was at an atrocious 46% TS for that series? Grant, who was at a merely average 55% TS despite averaging just 11 ppg? Yeah...no.

[ImKobe]

If he scored less, they would still win, someone else would score. 55 games without Jordan, that's stacked as ****. Heat was considered the most stacked team in history last season and they can't even win 40 games without Lebron.

They wouldn't score as effectively as MJ.

Bulls with MJ - 6 titles, 6 Finals appearances

Bulls without MJ - no Finals appearances, no titles

[LeBird]

Who would score more? Pippen, who was at an atrocious 46% TS for that series? Grant, who was at a merely average 55% TS despite averaging just 11 ppg? Yeah...no.

:lol

Both those players actually improved their shooting in 93-94 when Jordan retired.

[OldSchoolBBall]

:lol

Both those players actually improved their shooting in 93-94 when Jordan retired.

No, their shooting improved in '94 as compared to '93 because both Pippen and Grant had down years by their standards and then played up to par again in 1994. They both shot better in 1992, with Jordan, than they did without him in 1994. And regardless, seasonal shooting has no bearing on how one is performing in a particular series, which is what was in question. Nice try, though.

[LeBird]

No, their shooting improved in '94 as compared to '93 because both Pippen and Grant had down years by their standards and then played up to par again in 1994. They both shot better in 1992, with Jordan, than they did without him in 1994. And regardless, seasonal shooting has no bearing on how one is performing in a particular series, which is what was in question. Nice try, though.

No, you've missed it. The first poster claimed that without Jordan's 41ppg (the 93 finals) that the Bulls wouldn't win. Another poster claimed that the scoring would come from elsewhere. You then said that two of those players shot awfully. The irony is then that the very next year they shot better without Jordan than with him. So what happened 2 years before it is kind of irrelevant.

Regardless, it doesn't change the point. You can't assume that without him they'll automatically shoot worse. They might even shoot better.

[Milbuck]

LeBron's championships: 2

Not LeBron's championships: 0

That's what I thought.

[Beastmode88]

If the Bulls were so stacked why did Jordan need to average 41ppg in the finals to win it? Lol...go back to the drawing board fruit loop.

Jordan was like nothing they'd never seen before.
He'd make you eat Monopoly and shit out connect four.

If lebron was able to beat the spurs with a 40+ ppg I'd consider him top 2. Just falling short again.

[guy]

Good points. People act like Russell joined a dynasty. Russell, Wilt, KAJ, Bird, Shaq, LeBron, MJ all joined lousy teams. That is how the draft works. The only exceptions are Kobe (mid-pick and from high school) and Magic. MJythologists act as if only MJ joined a poor team.

You're such a joke :oldlol: You continue to act like you have any idea what and/or how to measure the circumstances of situations from the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even the 90s. Just STFU :oldlol: Its incredible that you think the game can be so easily simplified this way and I'm sure its insulting to anyone that has actually been part of the game.

[Roundball_Rock]

No, you've missed it. The first poster claimed that without Jordan's 41ppg (the 93 finals) that the Bulls wouldn't win. Another poster claimed that the scoring would come from elsewhere. You then said that two of those players shot awfully. The irony is then that the very next year they shot better without Jordan than with him. So what happened 2 years before it is kind of irrelevant.

Regardless, it doesn't change the point. You can't assume that without him they'll automatically shoot worse. They might even shoot better.

Exactly. Look at when MJ returned. Pippen shot worse in 96' than he did in 95' without MJ.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You're such a joke :oldlol: You continue to act like you have any idea what and/or how to measure the circumstances of situations from the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even the 90s. Just STFU :oldlol: Its incredible that you think the game can be so easily simplified this way and I'm sure its insulting to anyone that has actually been part of the game.

What did he say that was incorrect, though? Most of those guys were drafted to shitty situations; and most of them turned their franchises over.

[guy]

What did he say that was incorrect, though? Most of those guys were drafted to shitty situations; and most of them turned their franchises over.

They all turned their franchises over. Its not what he says, but his implication. The whole "how many games was some team better or worse without the superstar" argument that he's been using for years is so ridiculously stupid because he doesn't know or just ignores the exact circumstance and how it affected each situation and that's basically the baseline of all of his arguments.

[Eric Cartman]

Gotta respect these Jordan stans, no quit in them.

[kurple]

Top 5 all time based off this criterion:

#1 Jordan
#2 Bird
#3 Kobe
#4 Duncan
#5 Hakeem
#6 Wiggins?
kobe?

this would apply if Kobe won 5 rings with the Hornets

get the fvck outta here

[Roundball_Rock]

What did he say that was incorrect, though? Most of those guys were drafted to shitty situations; and most of them turned their franchises over.

Exactly. :oldlol: It is not a controversial point. Other than Kobe, all of those players were heralded coming into the NBA and all were high picks. KAJ, Magic, Shaq, LeBron, Hakeem, and Duncan were #1 picks. Russell went #2 and MJ #3. Bird was #6. (Wilt was a "territorial pick") Is it any surprise they went to lousy teams in most cases? That is how the draft works, unless an average or good team owns a bad team's pick or trades up. The insecurity of these people...

[knicksman]

The difference between winners and losers. Winners let their teammates shine and just steps up when it matters. Theyre not insecure to let their teammates have their moments. While losers statpads like crazy in the regular season and are insecure when their teammates outshines them. And worse is that they expect their ass to be saved when the going gets tough. Thus 2/5, 5/7, 6/6

[Da_Realist]

It's funny how incredibly stupid the "Jordan never won without Pippen and Phil so he would've never win without them" argument is yet so many people don't see the flaws in it and actually think there's sound logic behind it.

Especially considering that every other star that has ever won a championship did so without Scottie Pippen. And most of them did it without Phil Jackson. It's happened many times, but somehow MJ would have never figured it out. :rolleyes:

I guarantee somebody this year will figure out how to win a championship without Scottie or Phil. It may even be someone that's won multiple championships without them already.

[Roundball_Rock]

You live by the sword, you die by the sword. :oldlol: MJ fans for years were always the first to raise "X won with Y and/or Z" to diminish other players' team success on ISH. This was particularly the case vis-

[Da_Realist]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]You live by the sword, you die by the sword. :oldlol: MJ fans for years were always the first to raise "X won with Y and/or Z" to diminish other players' team success on ISH. This was particularly the case vis-