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View Full Version : Did Shaq only became MDE because he had no great competitors?


iamgine
03-06-2015, 06:59 AM
We know young Shaq held his own against Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, etc. But he only became MDE once the great centers were past their prime/retired and his best competition was offense challenged Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace. Shaq did face Alonzo Mourning twice in 99-00 and got outplayed.

So do you think Shaq only became MDE because he had no great competitors at center?
navy
03-06-2015, 07:03 AM
Shaq was averaging 29 points his sophomore year in the league.

I mean it helped, but he was damn good in the beginning .
Prime_Shaq
03-06-2015, 07:06 AM
We know young Shaq held his own against Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, etc. But he only became MDE once the great centers were past their prime/retired and his best competition was offense challenged Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace. Shaq did face Alonzo Mourning twice in 99-00 and got outplayed.

So do you think Shaq only became MDE because he had no great competitors at center?
No.
keep-itreal
03-06-2015, 07:06 AM
That's actually true OP.
blacknapalm
03-06-2015, 07:07 AM
woulda liked to see sabonis before injuries hit. ming could have carried the torch imo. ok, not carried the torch but be considered the best C in the league. dude was skilled w/ soft hands and defense that gets overlooked.

but no, shaq was going to be double teamed no matter what. he was too big, strong and athletic for that size. could grab a board and go coast to coast. finish oops with one hand. quick dropstep and spin move. right hook and developed a fadeaway. dude averaged 33 pts, 57% FG, 15.8 boards, 4.8 assists and 4 blocks in a finals series vs. a former DPOY. tell me again when that happens.

only an M80 woulda slowed that guy down at his prime. it was insanity
Nikola_
03-06-2015, 07:10 AM
shaq was swept in the 90s multiple times, but i thought it was the weakest era ever ..
navy
03-06-2015, 07:11 AM
shaq was swept in the 90s multiple times, but i thought it was the weakest era ever ..
He also beat Jordan. :confusedshrug:
buddha
03-06-2015, 07:15 AM
remind me of someone who is known as 2/5 around these parts.
Marchesk
03-06-2015, 07:15 AM
He also beat Jordan. :confusedshrug:

Are you talking about that 1 on 1 pre-game deal?
inclinerator
03-06-2015, 07:16 AM
Are you talking about that 1 on 1 pre-game deal?
both
navy
03-06-2015, 07:17 AM
Are you talking about that 1 on 1 pre-game deal?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NwgNLW9ASQ :lol

1995 playoffs
deja vu
03-06-2015, 07:23 AM
Can't really fault Shaq for being born a few years later than Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, etc.

It did helped that his prime happened when the great centers got very old. I remembered Hakeem outplaying him and Robinson putting up his usual numbers against him.

Prime Shaq was a different beast though and no doubt he would outplay a prime Hakeem a little bit. But Hakeem was more impactful on defense.
warriorfan
03-06-2015, 08:30 AM
shaq was swept in the 90s multiple times, but i thought it was the weakest era ever ..

ethered
Prime_Shaq
03-06-2015, 08:59 AM
Shaq was already named one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history in 1996. That was just his 3rd season in the league. What message does that send? Everyone already knew he was going to be a dominant force. All Hakeem had to do was school him in the Finals once, and step out of the way.
ImKobe
03-06-2015, 09:00 AM
dude was outplaying Duncan and C-Webb in the Playoffs during the 3-peat...he certainly had no competition coming out of the East though.
Psileas
03-06-2015, 09:12 AM
He never did, imo, but still, competition is overrated, at least in leagues of 25-30 teams. A dominant player is going to get his dominant stats regardless of it. A 90's Shaq wasn't getting much inferior stats compared to 2000 Shaq against clearly better competition than 2000 Shaq. Neither was prime Hakeem, Robinson or Ewing, despite facing each other.
Reggie43
03-06-2015, 09:30 AM
Shaq was regularly double/triple teamed and was still able to score at times which was the reason for the Mde tag because he was that unstoppable.
Real Men Wear Green
03-06-2015, 09:57 AM
We know young Shaq held his own against Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, etc. But he only became MDE once the great centers were past their prime/retired and his best competition was offense challenged Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace. Shaq did face Alonzo Mourning twice in 99-00 and got outplayed.

So do you think Shaq only became MDE because he had no great competitors at center?
Tim Duncan was not technically a starting center but he matched up with Shaq a lot and was a great big man that had to be dealt with throughout the '00s. Shaq is viewed the way he is viewed because there was such a wide gap between him and the second-best center for much of his career but there were some excellent pfs like the aforementioned Duncan and also Webber, whose Kings team in '02 (I think that was the year) was the greatest team I've ever seen that didn't win the championship.

And just looking at Shaq historically there is no team ever assembled that could have kept Shaq from averaging 25+ ppg efficiently at his peak. He has a combination of size strength and agility that only has one peer in Wilt Chamberlain. Even the one center to outplay him in a series at Shaq's peak, Olajuwon, did so in a series where Shaq still had great numbers.

He had two flaws: He should have kept himself in better shape and he was bad from the FT line. But there was never a series that his team lost that at least I can remember where the team lost because of the FT shooting and the conditioning issues didn't keep him from dominating a decade. The best player for 3 Championships and an important player for a fourth. I think he would have even more rings if he had a better work ethic but when a guy is unquestionably the best at his position for as long as he was with only one other big to rival him for much of his career (Duncan) it feels like nitpicking.
Im Still Ballin
03-06-2015, 10:03 AM
Tim Duncan was not technically a starting center but he matched up with Shaq a lot and was a great big man that had to be dealt with throughout the '00s. Shaq is viewed the way he is viewed because there was such a wide gap between him and the second-best center for much of his career but there were some excellent pfs like the aforementioned Duncan and also Webber, whose Kings team in '02 (I think that was the year) was the greatest team I've ever seen that didn't win the championship.

And just looking at Shaq historically there is no team ever assembled that could have kept Shaq from averaging 25+ ppg efficiently at his peak. He has a combination of size strength and agility that only has one peer in Wilt Chamberlain. Even the one center to outplay him in a series at Shaq's peak, Olajuwon, did so in a series where Shaq still had great numbers.

He had two flaws: He should have kept himself in better shape and he was bad from the FT line. But there was never a series that his team lost that at least I can remember where the team lost because of the FT shooting and the conditioning issues didn't keep him from dominating a decade. The best player for 3 Championships and an important player for a fourth. I think he would have even more rings if he had a better work ethic but when a guy is unquestionably the best at his position for as long as he was with only one other big to rival him for much of his career (Duncan) it feels like nitpicking.
Repped, brother.

EDIT: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Real Men Wear Green again.
Real Men Wear Green
03-06-2015, 10:08 AM
Repped, brother.

EDIT: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Real Men Wear Green again.
I do so love hanging out at the grey bar.
ThickassGlasses
03-06-2015, 10:22 AM
Shaq had to compete against D Rob, Duncan, Yao, a handful of excellent defensive centers, and a few great PF's.

While being around 5 years earlier would have presented him a slightly bigger challenge, it's now like he was playing in the 60's.


Also, thinking back on it, Yao Ming was extremely underrated for his short duration. Shaq was still a dominant force yet Yao played him pretty evenly outside of his rookie/first year in the NBA.
34-24 Footwork
03-06-2015, 10:54 AM
dude was outplaying Duncan and C-Webb in the Playoffs during the 3-peat...he certainly had no competition coming out of the East though.

This exactly....
Roundball_Rock
03-06-2015, 10:59 AM
Shaq was averaging 29 points his sophomore year in the league.

I mean it helped, but he was damn good in the beginning .

Exactly. Shaq was a top 5 player by his second year and was a top 10 player as a rookie. The guy joined a 21 win team and instantly improved them to 41 wins as a rookie--and this was before Shaq became a superstar. Imagine the impact of a 1994-2005 Shaq on a random 21 win team. :bowdown:

Shaq peaked in 2000-2002 for an obvious reason: his age. The vast majority of basketball players peak from 27-30, although there are exceptions like Hakeem (later) or Dwight (earlier).

The notion that Hakeem, Ewing, or prime Robinson were going to stop peak Shaq is false. Young third year Shaq fought peak Hakeem to a draw in the 95' Finals. Peak Shaq annihilated Mutumbo in the Finals--who was the DPOY that year.

Shaquille O'Neal is one of the 5 greatest players ever imo.
Prime_Shaq
03-06-2015, 11:57 AM
Exactly. Shaq was a top 5 player by his second year and was a top 10 player as a rookie. The guy joined a 21 win team and instantly improved them to 41 wins as a rookie--and this was before Shaq became a superstar. Imagine the impact of a 1994-2005 Shaq on a random 21 win team. :bowdown:

Shaq peaked in 2000-2002 for an obvious reason: his age. The vast majority of basketball players peak from 27-30, although there are exceptions like Hakeem (later) or Dwight (earlier).

The notion that Hakeem, Ewing, or prime Robinson were going to stop peak Shaq is false. Young third year Shaq fought peak Hakeem to a draw in the 95' Finals. Peak Shaq annihilated Mutumbo in the Finals--who was the DPOY that year.

Shaquille O'Neal is one of the 5 greatest players ever imo.
:applause:
Top 5 player All-Time and Top 2 Peak player. :cheers:
and Happy Birthday Shaq! :party:
riseagainst
03-06-2015, 01:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NwgNLW9ASQ :lol

1995 playoffs

:biggums:

it was the all star game pre-game....
ButterFace
03-06-2015, 01:21 PM
There is some truth to the OP, but Shaq is one of the biggest beasts of all time no matter how you look at it.
T_L_P
03-06-2015, 01:38 PM
He went up against the greatest defensive frontcourt ever 3 times.

Well, twice. Robinson was injured and horrible in 02.
CavaliersFTW
03-06-2015, 01:40 PM
At his best he was a little bit over half as dominant as Wilt Chamberlain, so, this is a malformed question.
Im Still Ballin
03-06-2015, 01:42 PM
Shaq's too big too strong for Wilt.

"Out the way Wilty!" - Shaq as he backs down Chamberlain and dunks on him
CavaliersFTW
03-06-2015, 01:45 PM
Shaq's too big too strong for Wilt.

"Out the way Wilty!" - Shaq as he backs down Chamberlain and dunks on him
Shaq looked like Wilt's kid brother when they met in 93. Wilt towered over him. Was taller, wider, stronger looking. Made Shaq look like a little kid, Shaq was closer to Bill Russell's height than he was to Wilt's :lol
ButterFace
03-06-2015, 01:51 PM
Shaq's too big too strong for Wilt.

"Out the way Wilty!" - Shaq as he backs down Chamberlain and dunks on him

You pretend that Wilt was tiny and weak. Silly boy.
julizaver
03-06-2015, 03:15 PM
Shaq was already named one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history in 1996. That was just his 3rd season in the league. What message does that send? Everyone already knew he was going to be a dominant force. All Hakeem had to do was school him in the Finals once, and step out of the way.

Yes, and a there was noise about how a 23-24 year old player in the beginning of his career could be in All-time great list. Anyway he had his place in the history - no question about it.
Shaq was mentioned as the next big thing in basketball - and he was. Plain and simple. Had he take care of his body more properly he could match Jordan's career (more MVPs, scoring titles and so on, probably 1 or 2 more rings).
Genaro
03-06-2015, 03:35 PM
Shaq was already a beast in the 90s when all these great centers were playing. Shaq didn't win that time because he didn't have the team, the focus or the coach to do it. All these problems were resolved with Kobe becoming a great player and Phil arrive (this helped the focus issue too).
Smoke117
03-06-2015, 03:39 PM
He was already a beast. I'm not so sure he would have ever had that moniker though if he was playing against Robinson, Zo (healthy), Hakeem, Ewing, etc during their prime and peaks through his. It made it a lot easier to get that MDE moniker when you were playing guys that couldn't do anything. The one other great Center in the league (I had Zo as the 2nd best player in the league after Shaq in 2000) who he came into the league went down with the Kidney ailment. After that...there was no other marquee centers left in the league till Yao join the NBA.

So no...he probably wouldn't have become the MDE, because you're not so dominant when those guys above are putting up similar numbers vs you as you are putting up against them.
hateraid
03-06-2015, 03:39 PM
I feel stupid for asking but what is MDE? I tried to google and there was no answer
Dr Hawk
03-06-2015, 03:41 PM
I feel stupid for asking but what is MDE? I tried to google and there was no answer

Most Dominant Ever
ButterFace
03-06-2015, 03:41 PM
Yes, and a there was noise about how a 23-24 year old player in the beginning of his career could be in All-time great list. Anyway he had his place in the history - no question about it.
Shaq was mentioned as the next big thing in basketball - and he was. Plain and simple. Had he take care of his body more properly he could match Jordan's career (more MVPs, scoring titles and so on, probably 1 or 2 more rings).


I agree with the bold on diet only, but people give him crap about being lazy. The dude was a monster of a man who played 19 seasons or something like that. If he busted his butt like Jordan or Kobe, his body may not have lasted very long.
hateraid
03-06-2015, 03:43 PM
Most Dominant Ever

Thanks buddy, repped:cheers:
Chadwin
03-06-2015, 03:59 PM
With a Kobe/Jordan-like work ethic he would have been the GOAT.
ThePhantomCreep
03-06-2015, 04:05 PM
Shaq was already a beast in the 90s when all these great centers were playing. Shaq didn't win that time because he didn't have the team, the focus or the coach to do it. All these problems were resolved with Kobe becoming a great player and Phil arrive (this helped the focus issue too).

No, he pretty much did--his teams were LOADED every year beginning in '94-'95.
Prime_Shaq
03-06-2015, 10:33 PM
No, he pretty much did--his teams were LOADED every year beginning in '94-'95.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Roundball_Rock
03-06-2015, 10:42 PM
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Those "loaded" teams where nowhere to be seen without Shaq. :pimp:
AnaheimLakers24
03-06-2015, 10:45 PM
Had to wait for kobe
Prime_Shaq
03-06-2015, 10:48 PM
Had to wait for kobe
Yep Kobe won 3 straight Finals MVPs and Shaq threw away the 2004 Finals :rolleyes:
Roundball_Rock
03-06-2015, 10:53 PM
Yep Kobe won 3 straight Finals MVPs and Shaq threw away the 2004 Finals :rolleyes:

Shaq without Kobe from 2000-2004: 25-6
Kobe without Shaq from 2000-2004: 24-29

:pimp:
Prime_Shaq
03-06-2015, 10:56 PM
Shaq without Kobe from 2000-2004: 25-6
Kobe without Shaq from 2000-2004: 24-29

:pimp:
https://thebasketballsociety.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/pniw21.gif
Cold soul
03-06-2015, 11:19 PM
I love Shaq but it's sad with a better work ethic and staying in shape year in and out he had the potential to be the greatest could of been the GOAT. Shaq at his peak is most dominate and imposing single force since MJ.
305Baller
03-06-2015, 11:33 PM
https://thebasketballsociety.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/pniw21.gif


:oldlol: Dudley was trying to ride the bull and got denied.
BlackVVaves
03-07-2015, 12:37 AM
Shaq was averaging 29 points his sophomore year in the league.

I mea....

/thread
97 bulls
03-07-2015, 12:54 AM
Shaq was great, but I dont think he would've had the success he had if there were great centers on.great teams like they were in the 90s. People forget that Shaq played 8 years in the 90s. And from 95 to 99 always had great teams.

I think the lack of other dominant centers during his championship runs hindered his work ethic cuz he didnt have anyone to really push him. In my opinion, he never reached his full potential.
CavaliersFTW
03-07-2015, 12:56 AM
/thread
Wilt averaged 37 and 27 rebounds as a rookie

/thread
TheMarkMadsen
03-07-2015, 01:19 AM
Shaq without Kobe from 2000-2004: 25-6
Kobe without Shaq from 2000-2004: 24-29

:pimp:

Shaq without Kobe: 2 finals, 1 ring

Kobe without Shaq: 3 finals, 2 rings, 2 FMVP

http://i.imgur.com/dqks5Kw.gif
Prime_Shaq
03-07-2015, 01:23 AM
Shaq without Kobe: 2 finals, 1 ring

Kobe without Shaq: 3 finals, 2 rings, 2 FMVP

http://i.imgur.com/dqks5Kw.gif
and when they were together, there was a clear cut alpha
https://thebasketballsociety.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/pniw21.gif
TheMarkMadsen
03-07-2015, 01:31 AM
and when they were together, there was a clear cut alpha
https://thebasketballsociety.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/pniw21.gif

Kobe led the league in 4th quarter playoff scoring for b2b titles in 01 and 02

Kobe: 3 straight finals without Shaq, b2b FMVP's

Shaq: 1 finals spent being swepted, the other not being the "clear cut alpha" without Kobe

5>4

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4lspmz4nu1rro22oo1_250.gif
Prime_Shaq
03-07-2015, 01:36 AM
Kobe led the league in 4th quarter playoff scoring for b2b titles in 01 and 02

Kobe: 3 straight finals without Shaq, b2b FMVP's

Shaq: 1 finals spent being swepted, the other not being the "clear cut alpha" without Kobe

5>4

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4lspmz4nu1rro22oo1_250.gif
Kobe had Gasol/Bynum/Odom. Shaq won the year he had healthy Wade. Got swept in the Finals? No shame. Lost to a better team with a better player. Kobe lost in an embarrassing fashion to the Celtics. Don't forget, Kobe's ego cost both of em a ring in 2004.

3>2
TheMarkMadsen
03-07-2015, 01:42 AM
Kobe had Gasol/Bynum/Odom. Shaq won the year he had healthy Wade. Got swept in the Finals? No shame. Lost to a better team with a better player. Kobe lost in an embarrassing fashion to the Celtics. Don't forget, Kobe's ego cost both of em a ring in 2004.

3>2

why are you listing players who averaged 6 points per game and 12 points per game in the playoffs? Keep reaching


3>2

great argument, "if you take away half of Kobe's career player x is better"

you'll fit in perfectly here
Prime_Shaq
03-07-2015, 02:18 AM
why are you listing players who averaged 6 points per game and 12 points per game in the playoffs? Keep reaching



great argument, "if you take away half of Kobe's career player x is better"

you'll fit in perfectly here
3 Finals MVP > 2 Finals MVP Is that wrong?
Bynum and Odom's impact goes more than just points, if you were a true Laker fan you would know that. Kobe is a great player but Shaq > Kobe. No shame in that.
DatAsh
03-07-2015, 03:04 AM
Shaq without Kobe: 2 finals, 1 ring

Kobe without Shaq: 3 finals, 2 rings, 2 FMVP

http://i.imgur.com/dqks5Kw.gif

Not really a fair comparison. Shaq spent most of his prime with Kobe, Kobe spent most of his prime without Shaq.
Deuce Bigalow
03-07-2015, 03:08 AM
Wilt averaged 37 and 27 rebounds as a rookie

/thread
Bellamy averaged 32 and 19 as a rookie

/thread
Prime_Shaq
03-07-2015, 03:42 AM
Not really a fair comparison. Shaq spent most of his prime with Kobe, Kobe spent most of his prime without Shaq.
Shaq's past his prime impact >>> Kobe's prime anyway
julizaver
03-07-2015, 04:03 AM
I agree with the bold on diet only, but people give him crap about being lazy. The dude was a monster of a man who played 19 seasons or something like that. If he busted his butt like Jordan or Kobe, his body may not have lasted very long.

He doesn't need to do that of course. He is a big boy - he needs just to manage weight and do the proper training for his 7ft body. And at the beginning of his career in Orlando he worked hard or at least I have read articles about how he looks fat, but had very little percentage of body fat and a testimony of his colleagues that he trains a lot. Remember Horace Grant saying that he trained with Shaq and his biceps were as big as Horace's thighs.
Anyway part of that accusations could be attributed to his looks, he doesn't looks and never looked as fit as DRob for example. But that doesn't mean that he was unnathletic either.