How many championships do Lakers win with Mcgrady from 2000-2004?

[mehyaM24]

in place of kobe

- those are the years shaq was in his prime
- tmac in his prime/relatively healthy those seasons

i believe these 2 have better in-game chemistry and could potentially win 4. thoughts?

[ISHGoat]

all of them

[J Shuttlesworth]

I could see them winning 4 assuming they don't have locker room/chemistry issues

[SugarHill]

first round exit every time

[ClipperRevival]

I don't know. Kobe was a killer. TMac, at least to me, always came across as guy who can get his but can't make people around him better. You can't win that way in basketball. The history of the league has a lot of great scorers who couldn't elevate the level of his teammates. There is a right way and wrong way to play the game.

So who knows. I'll let the TMac fans say "4".

[HOoopCityJones]

Tmac wasn't the player that Kobe was mentally. He had that 89 Pippen syndrome.

[ClipperRevival]

People forget how many great vets this Laker team had outside of the dynamic duo. Guys like Fish, Horry, Shaw, Fox, etc. All winners. All killers. All clutch. All into playing team ball. I don't know if you throw in a ball dominant guy like McGrady into the mix and things just work out. Most talent on a team doesn't necessarily mean the better team. The pieces have to fit.

[mehyaM24]

I don't know. Kobe was a killer. TMac, at least to me, always came across as guy who can get his but can't make people around him better. You can't win that way in basketball. The history of the league has a lot of great scorers who couldn't elevate the level of his teammates. There is a right way and wrong way to play the game.

So who knows. I'll let the TMac fans say "4".
westbrook has the same mentality as kobe, and tmac was just as ball dominant as kobe. as far as efficiency & results go, not much difference between them. westbrook & kobe shoot a lot of shots & get bailed out by their bigmen (durant is basically 7 foot).

[HOoopCityJones]

westbrook has the same mentality as kobe, and tmac was just as ball dominant as kobe. as far as efficiency & results go, not much difference between them. westbrook & kobe shoot a lot of shots & get bailed out by their bigmen (durant is basically 7 foot).


I'd say there is a big ****ing difference in the results department. :biggums:

Let's not pretend Tmac didn't have decent squads in Orlando and a Top Center of the Era in Yao during Houston.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Tmac wasn't the player that Kobe was mentally. He had that 89 Pippen syndrome.
You have to consider that he would be coached by Phil Jackson.

[greatest-ever]

They'd probably win 3 as well, idk if it would be the same years though.

[JT123]

4peat easily. Maybe even 5peat.

[T_L_P]

01, 02, 04...probably 03. I can't see T-Mac playing worse than Kobe did in that Spurs series.

[J Shuttlesworth]

01, 02, 04...probably 03. I can't see T-Mac playing worse than Kobe did in that Spurs series.
Wait, but I thought Kobe's supposed to be the Spurs "killer" :biggums:

[34-24 Footwork]

It depends. How was Tmac playing against the spurs and the kings during those years? That's where the finals was played 2000-2003.

Anyone that watched basketball knows what type of numbers kobe put up in the west conference playoff runs....

[Milbuck]

Wait, but I thought Kobe's supposed to be the Spurs "killer" :biggums:
He put up 32/5/4 on 53% TS...with a torn labrum :oldlol:

[houston]

non mac was too weak

[tpols]

They wouldve got beat by portland in 2000 as Kobe was > that year and the margin for error was already razor thin.

2001 is a ring.

2002 is a toss up with how close the kings series was.. coin flip year.

2003 they would probably win if they lost in 2002 since shaq would be motivated after losing to the queens.. but if they won wed likely see the same shaq who came into training camp very overweight, fat, complacent and bored since he already got his rings and fmvps.

2004 they still get whooped by detroit.. every single laker outside of shaq shot like dogshit and tmac would be hounded by a long tayshaun prince with atg help defense and defensive coaching/planning behind him.

So.. 2ish rings. Its also a huge unknown how tmac would hold up for a long playoff run.. let alone consecutive long playoff runs. And if hed be the same closer kobe was leading the playoffs in fourth quarter scoring multiple years.. so theres a lot of unknowns here.

[HOoopCityJones]

He put up 32/5/4 on 53% TS...with a torn labrum :oldlol:

Now they both Ghost. :facepalm

[Eric Cartman]

I say they win in 01, don't even reach the finals the other years.

[GreggPopazit]

3 or 4. I think their chances increase in 2004 because of more chemistry. They may have less of a chance in 2002.

[HOoopCityJones]

Revisionism going on right now in this thread about Mcgrady's uncanny ability to disappear in the post season.

[mehyaM24]

They wouldve got beat by portland in 2000 as Kobe was > that year and the margin for error was already razor thin.

2001 is a ring.

2002 is a toss up with how close the kings series was.. coin flip year.

2003 they would probably win if they lost in 2002 since shaq would be motivated after losing to the queens.. but if they won wed likely see the same shaq who came into training camp very overweight, fat, complacent and bored since he already got his rings and fmvps.

2004 they still get whooped by detroit.. every single laker outside of shaq shot like dogshit and tmac would be hounded by a long tayshaun prince with atg help defense and defensive coaching/planning behind him.

So.. 2ish rings. Its also a huge unknown how tmac would hold up for a long playoff run.. let alone consecutive long playoff runs. And if hed be the same closer kobe was leading the playoffs in fourth quarter scoring multiple years.. so theres a lot of unknowns here.
some decent points. although, i do think tmac having another go-to scorer and arguably the MDE would have prolonged his career. all that carrying he did in orlando played a huge toll, especially during those 2003 & 2004 seasons - arguably the worst help alongside a superstar.....ever.

fwiw, tmac averaged 33/9/5 on roughly 44%fg vs the spurs. better all-around numbers than kobe had, and this without another dominant presence in shaq.

[Shih508]

2000-2004 TMac > > Kobe

easily 3+ if not 4

[ButterFace]

Revisionism going on right now in this thread about Mcgrady's uncanny ability to disappear in the post season.

McGrady's lack of post season success is fun, but he was a beast during the 2000-2004 stretch of time even though his team didn't advance. His first year in the playoffs were great in 2000, but after that he averaged over 30ppg each series, including 33.8, 6.5, 8.3, 1.8, and 1.3 in 2001.

[guy]

I'd say there is a big ****ing difference in the results department. :biggums:

Let's not pretend Tmac didn't have decent squads in Orlando and a Top Center of the Era in Yao during Houston.

Huh????? T-Mac DID NOT HAVE decent squads in Orlando. They were terrible.

[Eric Cartman]

2000-2004 TMac > > Kobe

easily 3+ if not 4

http://imageshack.us/a/img17/2079/lebronlaughteeth1.png

[HOoopCityJones]

Huh????? T-Mac DID NOT HAVE decent squads in Orlando. They were terrible.

I liked them. :confusedshrug:

[Joyner82reload]

2000-2004 TMac > > Kobe

easily 3+ if not 4

no, he wasn't. T-Mac was a low IQ, low efficiency chucker. He had 1 great season in 2003 and everyone acts like he put up that production every season. Shooting 43% from the field as a sg/sf isn't impressive.

[riseagainst]

He put up 32/5/4 on 53% TS...with a torn labrum :oldlol:


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[riseagainst]

Real talk, Lakers would have won 10 chips with T-Mac in place of Kobe from 2000-2004. Kobe singlehandedly cost the Lakers 7 chips during that time. what a terrible player.

[riseagainst]

Real talk, Lakers would have won 10 chips with T-Mac in place of Kobe from 2000-2004. Kobe singlehandedly cost the Lakers 7 chips during that time. what a terrible player.


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[ButterFace]

I liked them. :confusedshrug:

Really? Talk about revisionist history. Their best year during that span Mike Miller was their #2 man, who still missed 20 games. The best players besides T-Mac to play more than 70 games were an old Horace Grant (8ppg, 6rpg) and Darrell Armstrong (12/4/5). Again, that was the BEST Magic had to offer during that span of time.

[HOoopCityJones]

Really? Talk about revisionist history. Their best year during that span Mike Miller was their #2 man, who still missed 20 games. The best players besides T-Mac to play more than 70 games were an old Horace Grant (8ppg, 6rpg) and Darrell Armstrong (12/4/5). Again, that was the BEST Magic had to offer during that span of time.

Alright, that's my bias. Let's talk about Houston. What's the excuse for that? :coleman:

Point is Mcgrady was only half the player Kobe ever was, and that was the scoring half. Tmac would tell you himself. Defense, playmaking, footwork, leadership etc. Kobe edges him out.

It's not even close.

[Shih508]

What Tmac had done for Magic from 00-04 was just as good as Kobe did for Lakers from 05-07 while Kobe was playing no hand checking rule so his scoring looked slightly better. Above average team nothing special, first round exit every year.

TMac 00-04 > Kobe 00-04

[Shih508]

Alright, that's my bias. Let's talk about Houston. What's the excuse for that? :coleman:

Point is Mcgrady was only half the player Kobe ever was, and that was the scoring half. Tmac would tell you himself. Defense, playmaking, footwork, leadership etc. Kobe edges him out.

It's not even close.

Kobe has 0 leadership!

[ArbitraryWater]

I'd say there is a big ****ing difference in the results department. :biggums:

Let's not pretend Tmac didn't have decent squads in Orlando and a Top Center of the Era in Yao during Houston.

http://seriouslyforreal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/tumblr_l5dv2gmI211qaggjuo1_500.gif

[HOoopCityJones]

I used the word decent and of course the local faggits at ISH act like I said GOAT.

[guy]

Alright, that's my bias. Let's talk about Houston. What's the excuse for that? :coleman:

Point is Mcgrady was only half the player Kobe ever was, and that was the scoring half. Tmac would tell you himself. Defense, playmaking, footwork, leadership etc. Kobe edges him out.

It's not even close.

Having Yao isn't exactly the same as having prime Shaq. On top of that, it was rare for both of those guys to be healthy in the playoffs. Yao was an all-star player, but its no comparison to Shaq. If T-Mac had prime Shaq as opposed to Yao in those Rocket years, its not farfetched that they win multiple titles. The difference was that large.

[ButterFace]

I used the word decent and of course the local faggits at ISH act like I said GOAT.

But they weren't even decent :confusedshrug:

[bizil]

They get at least three. And probably more cause he and Shaq wouldn't have nearly as many personality conflicts. If u look at all the SUPERSTAR SG or wing talent in the L back then, I think T-Mac would have been THE BEST FIT for Shaq! Why? His personality would have fit better with Shaq. Plus peak wise, I think T-Mac was a top 5 SG of all time. Up there with MJ, Kobe, Wade, and West. To top it off he was a great scorer AND passer in one.

[ButterFace]

Alright, that's my bias. Let's talk about Houston. What's the excuse for that? :coleman:


Well, McGrady's back injuries started early in his Houston days. His back issues were reported in his 2nd season with the team, and who knows if his back problems started his first season and it just didn't get talked about yet.

[LongLiveTheKing]

They 4-Peat. Almost every great perimeter player with prime Shaq is going to win the chips

[Lebron23]

They 4-Peat. Almost every great perimeter player with prime Shaq is going to win the chips


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[ButterFace]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

This is extremely overused. I can't wait for the fad to die.

[ButterFace]

This is extremely overused. I can't wait for the fad to die.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[jzek]

All of them

No one in the early 00s could have stopped Shaq regardless of who his sidekick is - Kobe, TMac, AI, Vince, you name it.

[Lebron23]

All of them

No one in the early 00s could have stopped Shaq regardless of who his sidekick is - Kobe, TMac, AI, Vince, you name it.

http://media.giphy.com/media/nqRJTIwsBftG8/giphy.gif

[ButterFace]

All of them

No one in the early 00s could have stopped Shaq regardless of who his sidekick is - Kobe, TMac, AI, Vince, you name it.

That makes no sense because they were stopped in 03 and 04 with Kobe.

[zoom17]

People are forgetting Mcgrady wasn't as durable like kobe was. Plus this is like the 1000th time this thread was made.

[Shih508]

That makes no sense because they were stopped in 03 and 04 with Kobe.

Kobe stopped Shaq not their opponents. He did that shit from his whole career and he got Shaq at the end of Shaq's prime. If he only takes 15 fg a game while scoring 20 pt and putting more effort in getting other involved, that team should be unstoppable.

Kobe has often been a negative impact to his team than his fanboys want to believe. David Stern and Boss family carried his career.

[andremiller07]

3-0 to Charlie Clips bodybag

[KirbyPls]

That makes no sense because they were stopped in 03 and 04 with Kobe.

OP FTW. :eek:

[ButterFace]

Kobe stopped Shaq not their opponents. He did that shit from his whole career and he got Shaq at the end of Shaq's prime. If he only takes 15 fg a game while scoring 20 pt and putting more effort in getting other involved, that team should be unstoppable.

Kobe has often been a negative impact to his team than his fanboys want to believe. David Stern and Boss family carried his career.

Did you even read what I quoted? The quote implied that Shaq and a star wing, including Kobe, wouldn't lose, and I was pointing out that they did. Doesn't matter if Kobe was the issue or not, the point remains the same that they didn't win each of those years.

[SugarHill]

3-0 to Charlie Clips bodybag
:roll:

[TheMarkMadsen]

ISH: where every perimeter player ever can outscored prime Shaq through the entire western conference playoffs

Where prime Shaq was so unstoppable.. that he never won until Kobe was elite.. and made made 2 finals & won 1 ring without Kobe while Kobe made 3 straight finals without Shaq and won b2b rings

Where 21 & 22 year old T Mac will lead the league in 4th quarter playoff ppg

Where the same T Mac can dominate 3 straight wcfs and outplay prime Shaq in multiple series.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe stopped Shaq not their opponents. He did that shit from his whole career and he got Shaq at the end of Shaq's prime.

Damn Kobe got Shaq towards the end of Shaqs prime? So Shaq must have been racking up those rings before joining Kobe? I mean he was playing with first team all nba guard Penny Hardaway and as we know anybody next to prime Shaq wins rings, so Shaq obviously won rings with first team all nba guard Hardwaway..?

[Genaro]

"Why T Mac? Let's put Austin Rivers and I'm sure Shaq would win 4 titles anyway" - ISHtards

[supernova5912]

01, 02, 04...probably 03. I can't see T-Mac playing worse than Kobe did in that Spurs series.

When did you become a bad poster? McGrady would literally do the same exact thing in literally the same situation versus the Pistons in 2004. There's no way he replicates Kobe Bryant's success against the Spurs and Kings in 2002. Also, even 2001 is arguable, considering there's no way to determine if McGrady can even come close to replicating what Kobe did (before the Finals) by playing as good/even better than prime Shaq. This isn't to mention that McGrady has never done much in the playoffs either.

[Showtime2001]

What Tmac had done for Magic from 00-04 was just as good as Kobe did for Lakers from 05-07 while Kobe was playing no hand checking rule so his scoring looked slightly better. Above average team nothing special, first round exit every year.

TMac 00-04 > Kobe 00-04
:facepalm

Idiot

[supernova5912]

ISH: where every perimeter player ever can outscored prime Shaq through the entire western conference playoffs

Where prime Shaq was so unstoppable.. that he never won until Kobe was elite.. and made made 2 finals & won 1 ring without Kobe while Kobe made 3 straight finals without Shaq and won b2b rings

Where 21 & 22 year old T Mac will lead the league in 4th quarter playoff ppg

Where the same T Mac can dominate 3 straight wcfs and outplay prime Shaq in multiple series.

People here don't realize that Kobe was putting up 1st option numbers as a 2nd option but instead clown the fact that he was a 2nd option to prime Shaq.

[Showtime2001]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HtbJFEzJM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR3kpKk0mfA

Yup these vids definitely prove that Kobe was "carried" :lol

[Cali Syndicate]

One or two I'd say. Most likely two. Three is a reach.....And four-peating my ass.

[TheMarkMadsen]

People here don't realize that Kobe was putting up 1st option numbers as a 2nd option but instead clown the fact that he was a 2nd option to prime Shaq.

people here don't realize that Kobe at 21 was leading his team in shot attempts through the entire playoffs with prime Shaq on his team..by design..

these jokers calling the guy who leads the team in shot attempts for b2b championships a "2nd option" are laughable

and like you already mentioned, Kobe was putting up numbers in 01 and 02 that were first option numbers

[Deuce Bigalow]

He put up 32/5/4 on 53% TS...with a torn labrum :oldlol:
Can't see anyone playing worse

[supernova5912]

people here don't realize that Kobe at 21 was leading his team in shot attempts through the entire playoffs with prime Shaq on his team..by design..

these jokers calling the guy who leads the team in shot attempts for b2b championships a "2nd option" are laughable

and like you already mentioned, Kobe was putting up numbers in 01 and 02 that were first option numbers

People try to act like what Kobe Bryant did can easily be duplicated by any All-Star two-guard. Instead, they don't see that he was a top 10 player in a league filledmwith stard during the threepeat.
:cheers:

[ClipperRevival]

People try to act like what Kobe Bryant did can easily be duplicated by any All-Star two-guard. Instead, they don't see that he was a top 10 player in a league filledmwith stard during the threepeat.
:cheers:

Yeah. It's so easy to sit here and say player X would've done wonders with a prime Shaq. Shaq was "the man" during the 3 peat but Kobe was the greatest second fiddle ever. While Shaq dominated the paint, Kobe dominated the wing. He had dominant games against great, WC teams during the 3 peat, where the rings were actually won cause the East was a joke back then.

[ILLsmak]

all of them

Indeed.

-Smak

[imdaman99]

TMac was too passive, he was not the killer that Kobe was. Deal with it.

*Posts gif*

[Tking714]

2004 they still get whooped by detroit.. every single laker outside of shaq shot like dogshit and tmac would be hounded by a long tayshaun prince with atg help defense and defensive coaching/planning behind him.


I'm not too sure about that. He was longer and more poised than Kobe.

Dropping 43 points on the pistons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTqK7Z8fejQ

[Tking714]

The pistons never bothered him in his prime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tygChp7C2hE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egv-h5v9P9Y

[Spurs5Rings2014]

cause the East was a joke back then.

It's not a joke now?

:lol

[KobesFinger]

T-Mac himself said he used to just go through the motions in practice (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/16/tracy-mcgrady-admits-he-really-wasn%E2%80%99t-into-practice-shocking/). So if your best two players are both lazy, what message does that give to the rest of your team?

They don't win in 2000. Yes, Shaq had one of the GOAT seasons but Portland still took them to 7. Kobe put them in the finals with his late game heroics, and I don't see T-Mac having Kobe's game 4.

They win in 2001. That Laker team was absolutely godly in the playoffs and while Kobe was a large part of that, T-Mac could replicate that IMO even the series against SA.

If they beat Sac in 2002 they then beat NJ.

2003? T-Mac did have his best season but he was the Magic's only option so I'd imagine he'd average 28-30 a game not the 32 he actually did. They should beat the Spurs if he's healthy IMO, then beat NJ again.

They make the Finals in 2004 but still lose. GOAT defensive team will adjust.

Between 1 and 3 IMO. People love to say "insert any guard with Shaq and they win" but never stop and think about Penny, or Shaq from 1996-1999 when Kobe wasn't elite but still had players like Eddie Jones and NVE

[TheMarkMadsen]

T-Mac himself said he used to just go through the motions in practice (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/16/tracy-mcgrady-admits-he-really-wasn%E2%80%99t-into-practice-shocking/). So if your best two players are both lazy, what message does that give to the rest of your team?

They don't win in 2000. Yes, Shaq had one of the GOAT seasons but Portland still took them to 7. Kobe put them in the finals with his late game heroics, and I don't see T-Mac having Kobe's game 4.

They win in 2001. That Laker team was absolutely godly in the playoffs and while Kobe was a large part of that, T-Mac could replicate that IMO even the series against SA.

If they beat Sac in 2002 they then beat NJ.

2003? T-Mac did have his best season but he was the Magic's only option so I'd imagine he'd average 28-30 a game not the 32 he actually did. They should beat the Spurs if he's healthy IMO, then beat NJ again.

They make the Finals in 2004 but still lose. GOAT defensive team will adjust.

Between 1 and 3 IMO. People love to say "insert any guard with Shaq and they win" but never stop and think about Penny, or Shaq from 1996-1999 when Kobe wasn't elite but still had players like Eddie Jones and NVE


T Mac isn't putting up 32/7/6 on 50% while not losing a game through the entire western conference playoffs while averaging 35ppg on the road..

and i just don't see T Mac being mentally strong enough to put together these type of consistent playoff runs, Kobe came back every year more motivated then the next to win a championship

T Mac goes up in a series and begins to relax because he thinks the series is over and then plays lazy, uninspired basketball for the next 2/3 games

T Mac and Shaq both would have gotten complacent after just making the finals and losing

Shaq's problem was that he was always a liability late in close games, I just don't see T Mac being able to do what Kobe did in 01 and 02 towards the end of games in the playoffs. Remember Kobe led the league in 4th quarter playoff scoring in both 01 and 02 on incredible efficiency to boot

[KobesFinger]

T Mac isn't putting up 32/7/6 on 50% while not losing a game through the entire western conference playoffs while averaging 35ppg on the road..

Why not? He had the skill level, he would have the green light and against the East finalists Milwaukee he averaged 33/8/6. Granted, it was on 41% but he had no second option. In this scenario he has Shaq.

Against SA they won by an average margin of 20. The closest game was 7 points. Kobe didn't need to average that for them to win. T-Mac could get away with 25-30PPG on similar efficiency and they'd still win the chip. Probably not sweep the West but maybe lose 2 games.

[PsychoBe]

first round exit

[TheMarkMadsen]

Why not? He had the skill level, he would have the green light and against the East finalists Milwaukee he averaged 33/8/6. Granted, it was on 41% but he had no second option. In this scenario he has Shaq.

Against SA they won by an average margin of 20. The closest game was 7 points. Kobe didn't need to average that for them to win. T-Mac could get away with 25-30PPG on similar efficiency and they'd still win the chip. Probably not sweep the West but maybe lose 2 games.

what are you basing this on? T Mac has never put together b2b playoff series.

putting up numbers in a losing series in the first round doesn't just get extrapolated over the course of 3 playoff series against better competition

and what about the Kings series? before they even got the the Spurs they had to play the kings. Every game besides game 3 was decided by single digits

in that series Kobe puts up 35/9/4 on 59% TS with clutch play.. i just don't see T Mac replicating that

[andgar923]

Tmac was easily more unselfish and better defender.

I've said this in the past and still stand by it: Tmac is the most double and tripled teamed perimeter player outside of MJ. Teams used to trap the f*ck outta Tmac cause he had no help.

Mac also caused more mismatch issues on both ends due to his athleticism and height.... Those handles were sick and smooth.

Given a different situation ie coach, system, organization, team there's no doubt his career takes a different route.

Imagine having Magic, West and Worthy as mentors? Having Phil as your coach? Tmac wasn't selfish on or off the court. He played well with Yao when they were on the floor together, imagine PRIME Shaq?

All those veteran players around that would get his back?

I used to shit on Tmac in the past, but having seen all the shit he went through aside from his injuries after injuries I take it back. Cat was putting in work all things considered.

Kobe was giving up on his team as soon as shit turned south a few years ago. Demanded to get traded, publicly trashed teammates, dismissed Magic, trashed the Lakers etc etc... Imagine if they traded places from day 1??

It's hard to imagine Tmac and Shaq not having at least 2 rings, 4-5 is very easy to imagine.

[DirkLegend41]

I thought this thread was gonna be about Kobe and T-Mac on the same team replacing Shaq.

[tpols]

I thought this thread was gonna be about Kobe and T-Mac on the same team replacing Shaq.

That would make a great reality tv show.