Lebron actually played one season under the old rules

[3ball]

Lebron actually played one season under the old rules that allowed hand-checking and physical play - it was his rookie season in 2004 when he shot 41.7% FG, 48% TS, and 99 ORtg - this is embarrassing by any standard, and would be embarrassing for any player.

But fortunately for Lebron, since the new rules were implemented in 2005, dribble-penetration has occurred more than any time in history.. It has become an automatic, built-in component of the game and all perimeter players have been the beneficiary - this is proven by league-wide offensive rating, which experienced it's largest 1-year increase ever from 2004 to 2005 (102.9 to 106.1).

The wider driving lanes (thanks to spacing) and aforementioned rule changes designed to make penetration easier have ushered in today's golden age of dribble penetration, as the league intended (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html).

The spacing-inspired wider lanes are actually a bonus, because a simple high screen or isolation play is all that's needed to take advantage of the hand-check ban and get in the lane.. Wings like Harden, Kobe and Lebron live off these plays, along with all point guards.. Previous era wings would be no different.
.

[Giaodollo]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.

[J Shuttlesworth]

3ball, I think you have a mental illness.

[ZMonkey11]

Wow. Really? This board's knowledge stock is falling like the 2008 Credit Crisis. Jeff laughing all the way to the bank with these tools.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why do you guys keep doing this? Ever since I joined ISH I have incessantly heard from the "80's/early 90's forever" crowd (and yes, I appreciate the 90's as much as anyone, hence my user name, but I don't hate on today's game as a result) about the rule changes aiding scoring? Why do you all conveniently leave a little detail out?

The rules were indeed changed to boost scoring--because scoring had plummeted to its lowest levels since the 1950's. Games were featuring embarrassingly low scores. Yes, scoring increase subsequent to the rule changes--but STILL scoring in the 2005-2015 period is the lowest in NBA history outside of the 50's and the late 90's and early 2000's. The notion that it is easy to score today is absurd. Scoring is 5.5 points less than 93' (the last year of the halcyon days, right?), 7.2. less than 90', 11 points less than 85' and 9.5 less than 80'.

LeBron has played in a lower scoring era than MJ, KAJ, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Hakeem and Russell did and he has overlapped obviously with Kobe, Duncan. Imagine LeBron in a league where average teams were scoring 110-115 ppg.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

He was a rookie straight out of high school playing 40 MPG on a terrible team.

Shut the **** up 3ball.

[Roundball_Rock]

He was a rookie straight out of high school playing 40 MPG on a terrible team.

Shut the **** up 3ball.

And improved them from 17 wins to 35 wins nonetheless! :bowdown:

[Real14]

This should not be a surprise ISH:applause:

[AnaheimLakers24]

It no wonder he only has 2 asterisk rings

[24-Inch_Chrome]

And improved them from 17 wins to 35 wins nonetheless! :bowdown:

He turned them around very quickly, they posted a a 50-32 record in his third year with Cleveland. 3ball may have a legitimate allergy to giving anyone not named 'Michael Jordan' credit for anything good.

[3ball]

LOL at you guys trying to defend 41.7% FG, 48% TS, and 99 ORtg.. oh, and it's just coincidence this was the ONE AND ONLY YEAR he played under the old rules.

Yeah, even 40-year old Jordan did better the prior years in both 2002 and 2003 (and he also led his team to 19 more wins).

But again, fortunately for Lebron, since the new rules were implemented in 2005, dribble-penetration has occurred more than any time in history - it has become an automatic, built-in component of the game and all perimeter players have been the beneficiary.
.

[Roundball_Rock]

He turned them around very quickly, they posted a a 50-32 record in his third year with Cleveland. 3ball may have a legitimate allergy to giving anyone not named 'Michael Jordan' credit for anything good.

Exactly. 17 wins to 35 and then 42 and then 50 and in his fourth year he carried scrubs to the Finals. Since he turned 21 LeBron's teams have never done worse than 0.600 (when he plays--the 08' Cavs were 45-37 but that is because those scrubs went 0-8 without him) and the second round.

Imagine how much greater immediate impact LeBron would have had if he went to college and came to the NBA more polished. :eek:


Yeah, even 40-year old Jordan did better the prior years in both 2002 and 2003 (and he also led his team to 19 more wins).0

CHI under early MJ: 38 wins (+11, similar to rookie Rose's improvement of CHI), 9-9, 40-42, 50-32, 47-35 (ECF, though, albeit after a last minute walk-off game winner to prevent another first round exit). Chicago was spinning its wheels in mediocrity for years until Pippen became a starter. :lol

CLE under early LeBron: 35 wins (+18), 42-40, 50-32, 50-32 (Finals), 45-29.

[CavaliersFTW]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.
damn. :lol

[SugarHill]

What was Jordan doing at 19?

[3ball]

CHI under early MJ: 38 wins (+11, similar to rookie Rose's improvement of CHI), 9-9, 40-42, 50-32, 47-35 (ECF, though).

CLE under early LeBron: 35 wins (+18), 42-40, 50-32, 50-32 (Finals), 45-29.


40-year old Jordan led his team to 19 more wins in 2002... does that mean he's better than 21-year old Jordan who only led his team to 11 more wins?

See, your logic is very weak, and that's being generous - nothing can change the reality that in his ONE season under the old rules, Lebron shot 41.7%, 48% TS, with a 99 ORtg... 40-year old Jordan did better under the same conditions just a year earlier in 2003.

But again, fortunately for Lebron, the new rules in 2005 ushered in the golden age of easy dribble-penetration - a simple high screen or isolation play is all that's needed to take advantage of the hand-check ban and get in the lane.. Wings like Harden, Kobe and Lebron live off these plays, along with all point guards.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

LOL at you guys trying to defend 41.7% FG, 48% TS, and 99 ORtg.. oh, and it's just coincidence this was the ONE AND ONLY YEAR he played under the old rules.

Yeah, even 40-year old Jordan did better the prior years in both 2002 and 2003 (and he also led his team to 19 more wins).

But again, fortunately for Lebron, since the new rules were implemented in 2005, dribble-penetration has occurred more than any time in history - it has become an automatic, built-in component of the game and all perimeter players have been the beneficiary.
.

Where in this thread did ANYONE say that LeBron was better than Jordan? Oh yeah, no one did. Stop being so insecure and shut the **** up.

[Kvnzhangyay]

straight from high school lol

[iamgine]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.
This.

[Elosha]

You know 3Ball... Jordan's my favorite player and I firmly believe he's the GOAT. I've watched ball religiously since 1982. I do appreciate, at times, some of your points. But you are just asking for failure in trying to downgrade Lebron's rookie year, when he was a freaking just out of high school player in his first year of the NBA. He's A 18 YEAR OLD ROOKIE IN HIS FIRST SEASON. It was a very nice first season, and he won rookie of the year. Was it as good as Jordan's rookie year? No. But it's ridiculous to try to use LBJ's ROOKIE year, under the old rules, as a proxy for how he would have continued to play had the old rules stayed in effect.

Certainly the older rules would have made things a bit more difficult for him, but he's an all time great. He would still have had spectacular numbers, just as Jordan would have incredible numbers if he played today. You're not going to seriously hold down all time greats, no matter what system or rules are being implemented.

My advice to you is simply don't reach so much in these threads. Jordan's the best player out there by many metrics, eye test, career accolades, especially when combining those factors. But really, stop reaching.

[Roundball_Rock]

So even if we accept that 03' Jordan>04' LeBron what does that prove???

Face it, Jordan played in an era (speaking of 1985-1993, which included his prime and peak years), where scoring was much higher, elite scorers took far more shots and played far more minutes than they do today. You would not find a player averaging 40 mpg, 28 FGA per game to score 37 ppg or even 39 mpg, 26 FGA to score 33 ppg on a championship team today. The game has evolved away from hero/isolation ball, evolved toward an emphasis on efficiency and team ball and towards limiting minutes of players (except Thibs :lol ).

Look at minutes. Irving is second this year at 37.3. That would not even rank him in the top 10 in 90% of seasons from 1960-2010.

The bottom line is the notion that today's players have inflated stats is false. If anything a guy like LeBron would post greater stats if he played in the 80's or early 90's than he has in the past few years (i.e. 2010-2015) where the above trends have taken root.

[Uncle Drew]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.
/thread

[nzahir]

3ball is the worst poster on here no lie

[KNOW1EDGE]

Roundball Rock with the slay using facts and statistics instead of opinion and hyperbole. :cheers:

But nobody cares to respond to facts, they'd rather deflect and continue with the LeBron sux agenda.

[Megabox!]

If a 19 year old fresh out of high school LBJ was posting numbers like that against the old rules then just imagine the 09', 12', and 13' versions of him :eek: domination

[Im Still Ballin]

Give me your home address 3ball

I'm going to beat your ass

[Smoke117]

3ball beating his current shtick to death: dribble-penetration

[PistonsFan#21]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[Hey Yo]

Pete Myers

[navy]

3ball is legit the worst poster on this board

[AirBourne92]

i dont know who is cornier, 3ball, or all the lebron nut huggers

[KNOW1EDGE]

3ball is legit the worst poster on this board

Budaii, Fudge, Russwest0, Hawkfan, Bless Matthews all can vouch that is not true.

[3ball]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.
how can you think this is logical?.. the college game is a slower-paced game with no shot clock.

jordan's averaged 19.6 PPG as a junior... then he averaged 28.2 PPG as a rookie in the NBA.

this is common for many players going from college to the pros - infact, i guarantee that lebron averages like 14-16 PPG (with great all-round numbers) if he had played in college.

[Kvnzhangyay]

how can you think this is logical?.. the college game is a slower-paced game with no shot clock.

jordan's averaged 19.6 PPG as a junior... then he averaged 28.2 PPG as a rookie in the NBA.

this is common for many players going from college to the pros - infact, i guarantee that lebron averages like 14-16 PPG (with great all-round numbers) if he had played in college.

How can you think its logical to use an 18-19 year old kid as evidence that Lebron would have struggled to play in the "old rules"?

[Hey Yo]

how can you think this is logical?.. the college game is a slower-paced game with no shot clock.

jordan's averaged 19.6 PPG as a junior... then he averaged 28.2 PPG as a rookie in the NBA.

this is common for many players going from college to the pros - infact, i guarantee that lebron averages like 14-16 PPG (with great all-round numbers) if he had played in college.
and couldn't even get his team to the final 4.

[3ball]

He was a rookie straight out of high school


This doesn't explain the MASSIVE JUMP in Lebron's efficiency his 2nd year under the new rules - huge jumps in efficiency like this aren't normal:

Lebron in 2004 under old rules.: 41.7% FG.. 48.8% TS.. 99 ORtg
Lebron in 2005 under new rules: 47.2% FG.. 55.4% TS.. 114 ORtg


Jordan, Magic, Bird - they all shot the same in their 2nd season, as would be expected normally... but not Lebron, because Lebron got to benefit from new rules that were designed to open up the middle of the floor, reduce physicality, and make penetration easier.

Intuitively, there is no real reason why a player's efficiency should increase so much from one season to the next.. But one reason could indeed be rule changes - the fact that there happened to be rule changes the very season that Lebron's efficiency jumped is too much of a coincidence..

Clearly, the rule changes helped his efficiency - and this should not be a surprise or disputable, because it's well known that the rule changes helped EVERYONE'S efficiency.
.

[Real14]

3ball living rent free in mad haterz' heads right now:roll:

[HomieWeMajor]

OP at 19 was doing ... well maybe we'll find out in 9 years time.

[iamgine]

This doesn't explain the MASSIVE JUMP in Lebron's efficiency his 2nd year under the new rules - huge jumps in efficiency like this aren't normal:

Lebron in 2004 under old rules.: 41.7% FG.. 48.8% TS.. 99 ORtg
Lebron in 2005 under new rules: 47.2% FG.. 55.4% TS.. 114 ORtg

Happened to Kevin Durant.

[Hey Yo]

This doesn't explain the MASSIVE JUMP in Lebron's efficiency his 2nd year under the new rules - huge jumps in efficiency like this aren't normal:

Lebron in 2004 under old rules.: 41.7% FG.. 48.8% TS.. 99 ORtg
Lebron in 2005 under new rules: 47.2% FG.. 55.4% TS.. 114 ORtg


Jordan, Magic, Bird - they all shot the same in their 2nd season, as would be expected normally... but not Lebron, because Lebron got to benefit from new rules that were designed to open up the middle of the floor, reduce physicality, and make penetration easier.

Intuitively, there is no real reason why a player's efficiency should increase so much from one season to the next.. But one reason could indeed be rule changes - the fact that there happened to be rule changes the very season that Lebron's efficiency jumped is too much of a coincidence..

Clearly, the rule changes helped his efficiency - and this should not be a surprise or disputable, because it's well known that the rule changes helped EVERYONE'S efficiency.
.
Actually MJ shot much worse his second season.

Rookie - 51.5 FG%, 59.2 TS%, 118 ORtg

2nd season - 45.7 FG%, 53.3 TS%, 109 ORtg

Which basically means you're full of shit saying he shot the same.

LOL @ 35fga and 13fta per game his second season

[Poetry]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.

That was his first year, when he was 18.



Also, Dean Smith was famous for using the four-corner stall.

Because there wasn't a shotclock, once they had the lead, they would just run out the clock. That's why the NCAA started using a shotclock. So when you're stalling for 7-8 minutes at a time, there aren't going to be many opportunities to score.

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/the_more_you_know_nbc.gif

[Jud]

Good god why the **** are you so obsessed with the older rules?? Shut your old imbecile ass up already.

[3ball]

Happened to Kevin Durant.


if i say something is not normal (large increases in efficiency during a player's 2nd season), and you point out one or two exceptions, you are making my point... DUCY?

[pauk]

Meanwhile 18 year old MJ was doing what?

[mehyaM24]

3ball gon' 3ball. guy is stuck in his head & no amount of facts will change that.


Meanwhile 18 year old MJ was doing what?
:lebronamazed:

[Poetry]

Meanwhile 18 year old MJ was doing what?

Getting a college education.

[Hey Yo]

The same or lower - it's the same thing - the point is that huge INCREASES like Lebron's are not normal - and again, the fact that such a large jump happened the same year as major rule changes is highly unlikely to be a coincidence.

The rule changes clearly helped his efficiency - and this should not be a surprise or disputable, because it's well known that the rule changes helped EVERYONE'S efficiency.

Show us all these other examples of players (in 2005 their 2nd year) making HUGE INCREASES in efficiency from the year before.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

if i say something is not normal (large increases in efficiency during a player's 2nd season), and you point out one or two exceptions, you are making my point... DUCY?

...or they're both great players who were able to make necessary adjustments in their second season. LeBron and Durant (when healthy) are the two best players in the league (by a wide margin as far as tiers), if they are the two who produce an abnormal increase in efficiency in their sophomore seasons then it's related to their skill and ability to adjust.

[Young X]

3ball definitely isn't the worst poster on this board. As annoying as he is at least his posts are basketball related. There are alot of posters who never actually discuss basketball and just post/spam sh!t for attention that are worse. Y'all know who I'm talking about. This thread is stupid tho.

[sdot_thadon]

So Lebron managed those numbers as a highschool kid in the last year of the ugliest era of ball? Imagine what he'd done if his rookie yr was in '85 instead....

[iamgine]

if i say something is not normal (large increases in efficiency during a player's 2nd season), and you point out one or two exceptions, you are making my point... DUCY?
Who's to say Lebron's not the exception?

[3ball]

Actually MJ shot much worse his second season.

Rookie - 51.5 FG%, 59.2 TS%, 118 ORtg

2nd season - 45.7 FG%, 53.3 TS%, 109 ORtg

Which basically means you're full of shit saying he shot the same.


Jordan was hurt in his 2nd season and only played 18 games - this is the kind of anomalous event that will cause a drastic change to efficiency... Clearly, Jordan's highly unusual and massive drop in efficiency that season has to be attributed to the one-time event of his injury.

Similarly, in 2005, Lebron's highly unusual, massive increase in efficiency has to be attributed to the one-time event of the NBA implementing major rule changes.. To assume otherwise is just as ludicrous as assuming Jordan's drop in efficiency wasn't due to his injury.

It isn't a surprise or disputable that the rule changes helped Lebron's efficiency, because it's well known that the rule changes helped everyone's efficiency (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html).
.

[Hey Yo]

...or they're both great players who were able to make necessary adjustments in their second season. LeBron and Durant (when healthy) are the two best players in the league (by a wide margin as far as tiers), if they are the two who produce an abnormal increase in efficiency in their sophomore seasons then it's related to their skill and ability to adjust.
But Durant shouldn't even qualify as an example because the new rules were already in place his rookie year.

The only player examples used should be from the 2003-04 draft class which 3ball is using.

[Hey Yo]

Jordan was hurt in his 2nd season and only played 18 games - this is the kind of anomalous event that will cause a drastic change to efficiency... Clearly, Jordan's highly unusual and massive drop in efficiency that season has to be attributed to the one-time event of his injury.

Similarly, in 2005, Lebron's highly unusual, massive increase in efficiency has to be attributed to the one-time event of the NBA implementing major rule changes.. To assume otherwise is just as ludicrous as assuming Jordan's drop in efficiency wasn't due to his injury.

It isn't a surprise or disputable that the rule changes helped Lebron's efficiency, because it's well known that the rule changes helped everyone's efficiency (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html).
.
Show us all these other examples of players (in 2005 their 2nd year) making HUGE INCREASES in efficiency from the year before.

[3ball]

Show us all these other examples of players (in 2005 their 2nd year) making HUGE INCREASES in efficiency from the year before.
It doesn't have to be a player's 2nd season like Lebron's - ALL players were helped by the rule changes in 2005.

This is proven by the fact that league-wide offensive rating (ORtg) had the biggest 1-year jump from 2004 to 2005 than it has ever had (102.9 to 106.1).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html
.

[Hey Yo]

It doesn't have to be a player's 2nd season like Lebron's - ALL players were helped by the rule changes in 2005.

This is proven by the fact that league-wide offensive rating (ORtg) had the biggest 1-year jump from 2004 to 2005 (102.9 to 106.1) than it has ever had since the inception of the 3-point line 35 years ago.
:rolleyes:

He's what the entire premise is about in YOUR thread. You're implying that there was no chance LeBron could improve his rookie numbers the following season w/o the rule change.

If you can't show us numerous examples of 2nd year players in 04-05 having drastic increases "like you said" then STFU.

[Roundball_Rock]

This doesn't explain the MASSIVE JUMP in Lebron's efficiency his 2nd year under the new rules - huge jumps in efficiency like this aren't normal:

Lebron in 2004 under old rules.: 41.7% FG.. 48.8% TS.. 99 ORtg
Lebron in 2005 under new rules: 47.2% FG.. 55.4% TS.. 114 ORtg


Jordan, Magic, Bird - they all shot the same in their 2nd season, as would be expected normally... but not Lebron,

First, let's compare an apple to an apple and look at another perimeter player who came out of high school around the same time as LeBron.

Kobe in 1997: 8/2/1 on 42%
Kobe in 1998: 15/3/3 on 43%

Was there a rule change? No, he simply took another step as he grew older and got a year of high level competition under his belt. These are guys who went from playing high schoolers to professionals. They did not get to hone their games against future NBA players by playing at an elite college program. Hence they require a greater adjustment period. Such a jump in a their first few years can be seen with pretty much every high school player.


Clearly, the rule changes helped his efficiency - and this should not be a surprise or disputable, because it's well known that the rule changes helped EVERYONE'S efficiency.

Yeah, that was the point of the rules changes. Still, despite the rule changes efficiency and scoring is substantially lower from 2005-2015 than it was in the halcyon days of the 80's and early 90's, as well as in the 70's and 60's.


So Lebron managed those numbers as a highschool kid in the last year of the ugliest era of ball? Imagine what he'd done if his rookie yr was in '85 instead....

:D MJ averaged 28/7/6 on 52% as a rookie and these guys act as if it was an era where it was extremely difficult to score and legends from today would be struggling in 1985 or 1990. :oldlol:


This is proven by the fact that league-wide offensive rating (ORtg) had the biggest 1-year jump from 2004 to 2005 (102.9 to 106.1) than it has ever had.

So your implication is that because league-wide offensive rating jumped to 106.1 it is a weak era because it is easy to score? That is the implication of your statement...so how about offensive ratings in previous eras?

League Average Offensive Rating

2015: 105.4
2010: 107.6
2005: 106.1
2000: 104.1
1995: 108.3
1990: 108.1
1985: 107.9
1980: 105.3
1975: 97.7

Lo and behold and, for the years we have offensive rating data (1974-present), it turns out the Jordan era featured the highest offensive ratings! :roll:

[3ball]

You're implying that there was no chance LeBron could improve his rookie numbers w/o the rule change.


It doesn't have to be his rookie numbers or even his numbers - I'm saying it's not normal for ANY player to have such massive 1-year efficiency increase without some sort of one-time event affecting his numbers, such as an injury or major rule changes (like the NBA implemented in the season of Lebron's massive efficiency increase).

It's common knowledge that the rule changes in 2005 helped all players offensively, especially perimeter players.. The stats prove it - league-wide ORtg had it's biggest 1-year increase ever in 2005, the very year of the rule changes.

It shouldn't be a surprise - the rule changes were designed to open up the middle of the floor, reduce physicality, and make penetration easier.. This isn't my interpretation - it's the NBA's (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html).

[24-Inch_Chrome]

But Durant shouldn't even qualify as an example because the new rules were already in place his rookie year.

The only player examples used should be from the 2003-04 draft class which 3ball is using.

He qualifies to my point.

3ball's argument is that the rules change was the only reason LeBron's numbers improved as much as they did, because no one improves that much in their second season. Someone mentioned Durant as a second player whose numbers improved substantially in their second season. 3ball proceeded to say that these exceptions proved his point as they were abnormal...which I don't believe. It's not coincidence that the two players whose second year numbers progressed as they did are the league's two best players.

[Giaodollo]

It doesn't have to be a player's 2nd season like Lebron's - ALL players were helped by the rule changes in 2005.

This is proven by the fact that league-wide offensive rating (ORtg) had the biggest 1-year jump from 2004 to 2005 than it has ever had (102.9 to 106.1).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html
.

So what you are saying is that the ORTG jumped back to where it was in the 90s? Still lower then it was in the 80s?

[jzek]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.

How is it possible for Jordan to average 13 PPG in college and then in his first year in the pros average like 44 PPG? :wtf:

[Roundball_Rock]

So what you are saying is that the ORTG jumped back to where it was in the 90s? Still lower then it was in the 80s?

Lower than both the 80's and 90's. From 1984-1997 offensive rating ranged from 107-108, with the exception of one year where it dipped to 106. So basically for the entire "Jordan era" offensive rating was at a historically high level. It was higher than the early 80's, the entire 70's, the late 90's and the entire 21st century. I bet 3ball did not check all the facts, or simply assumed no one else would, when he chose to make this argument. :oldlol:


Someone mentioned Durant as a second player whose numbers improved substantially in their second season. 3ball proceeded to say that these exceptions proved his point as they were abnormal...which I don't believe.

Look at the jump that occurred for this player who entered the league the year before Jordan did at played the same position.

Drexler in 1984: 8/3/2 on 45.1%
Drexler in 1985: 17/6/6 on 49.4%

:eek:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

How is it possible for Jordan to average 13 PPG in college and then in his first year in the pros average like 44 PPG? :wtf:

LeBron actually averaged a higher PPG at age 21 than Jordan, which was Jordan's age in his rookie season. Obviously Jordan's scoring averages from that point on were ludicrously good (topped out at 37.1 PPG, LeBron's highest was his age-21 season) but Jordan's college experience was definitely helpful for him in the development process.

That said, I don't think LeBron would have come into the league averaging 25 PPG+ if he had gone to college instead of making the jump from high school, just trying to say that there is a benefit to going to college. Jordan had 3 or 4 years to develop at North Carolina before jumping to the NBA while LeBron had to do his developing as he became acclimated to playing professionally.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Look at the jump that occurred for this player who entered the league the year before Jordan did at played the same position.

Drexler in 1984: 8/3/2 on 45.1%
Drexler in 1985: 17/6/6 on 49.4%

:eek:

It goes to show how bullshit his argument was. If the only players seeing huge jumps in production between their rookie and sophomore season are all-time greats it's much more a matter of their skill/ability to adapt then something related to a rule change, or some other excuse.

[OldSchoolBBall]

How is it possible for Jordan to average 13 PPG in college and then in his first year in the pros average like 44 PPG? :wtf:

Jordan actually averaged 20 ppg his final 2 seasons in college, not 13 ppg. And it was well known that Dean Smith was keeping him in check in terms of doing more individually. This was best seen in the Summer before Jordan turned pro during the Olympics, where he was easily the best player on the team (with Bobby Knight saying that MJ would go down as the best player to ever play) and also abused NBA players in scrimmage games.

[Roundball_Rock]

Look at what happened to MJ after offensive rating fell back to Earth...In 1997 the NBA's offensive rating was 106.7, continuing a trend since 1984 of historically high offensive ratings. However, 1998 marked the end of that era as Orating fell to 105.0.

1997 Jordan: 30/6/4 on 48.6%
1998 Jordan: 29/6/3.5 on 46.5%

So as the league-wide offensive rating returned to normal levels Jordan's FG % slipped by over 2%. Using 3ball's own (absurd) logic, that "exposes" MJ. :oldlol:

I don't agree with his logic and I don't read anything into the 98' drop-off, which was largely a result of Pippen missing the first half of the season (when Pippen, the team's primary playmaker, returned the efficiency of his teammates significantly increased and Jordan was no exception) and not due to league-wide changes impacting Jordan, but I wanted to point this out to expose how flawed 3ball's case is. If he truly believes in Orating as a metric, he has to believe that Jordan played in the easiest offensive era and that the party promptly ended as the league's offensive rating returned to normal levels. What say you 3ball? Will you stand by your own logic or shift gears now that it paints MJ in an unfavorable light?

[STATUTORY]

What was Jordan doing at 19?

http://www.michaeljordanpictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Michael-Jordan-Dancing-with-an-Umbrella-in-College.jpg

[Roundball_Rock]

It goes to show how bullshit his argument was. If the only players seeing huge jumps in production between their rookie and sophomore season are all-time greats it's much more a matter of their skill/ability to adapt then something related to a rule change, or some other excuse.

Exactly and then you have legends like Stockton and Payton who did not have large jumps until their 3rd or 4th years.

Here is another example from Jordan's era:

Pippen in 88': 8/4/2 on 46.3%
Pippen in 89' as a reserve (17 games): 10/5/2 on 45.0%
Pippen in 89' as a starter (56 games): 16/7/4 on 48.1%

Did the rules change in the middle of 1989? :oldlol:

[3ball]

Drexler in 1984: 8/3/2 on 45.1%
Drexler in 1985: 17/6/6 on 49.4%


This is not a massive 1-year increase - Lebron's increase was more, and it was across the board.

Drexler's TS% only increased from 0.50 to 0.53, whereas Lebron's TS% increased more than twice as much, from 0.49 to 0.56.. and Lebron's ORtg went up from 99 to 114.





Yeah, that was the point of the rules changes. Still, despite the rule changes efficiency and scoring is substantially lower from 2005-2015 than it was in the halcyon days of the 80's and early 90's, as well as in the 70's and 60's.


You are forgetting that previous eras played at a faster pace, which means higher scoring per game - and the faster pace was because teams ran less offense in previous eras.. The only reason teams run offense in the first place is to get OPEN SHOTS - two-pointers don't need to be as open as 3-pointers, so they requires less offense to be ran.. The two-pointer basketball of previous eras simply plays faster.

It's intuitive - the further a shot is from the basket, the more it's FG% goes down when contested.. Many mid-range and paint shots are taken with a defender draped all over - this is standard for 2-pointers, but not 3-pointers.. 3-pointers need to be more open than 2-pointers and therefore require more offense to be ran, which slows the game down.. Indeed, throughout history, pace has steadily declined with the increase of 3-point shooting.

While 3-pointers provide the much-coveted spacing, this spacing takes time to set up by having to run offense every possession, which slows the game compared to previous eras.. In previous eras, the norm was for players to settle for a wide variety of quick and contested two-pointers, which is exactly what TODAY'S game would turn return to if the 3-point line were suddenly removed - pace would increase sharply right away.





So your implication is that because league-wide offensive rating jumped to 106.1 it is a weak era because it is easy to score?

so how about offensive ratings in previous eras?


You're forgetting that certain brands of basketball carry with it higher or lower offensive ratings - the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increases ORtg in the calculation - it's just the way the stat is calculated.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease ORtg in the calculation.

Just look at the same league-averages table that we've been looking at from basketball-reference.com (posted again below).. It's easy to see from the last 6 columns of the table how the significantly higher offensive rebounding and FT rates of previous era contributed to higher ORtg (of course, the higher offensive rebounding and FT rates are due to the higher proportion of 2-pointers taken).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html





Lo and behold and, for the years we have offensive rating data (1974-present), it turns out the Jordan era featured the highest offensive ratings! :roll:


Even though we already know the higher offensive rebounding and FT rates associated two-pointers resulted in higher ORtg in previous eras, Jordan still wins even with your logic: Jordan finished off his 2nd three-peat in 1998, when scoring, efficiency, pace and league-wide ORtg were all lower than they are now.
.

[3ball]

Kobe in 1997: 8/2/1 on 42%
Kobe in 1998: 15/3/3 on 43%

Was there a rule change? No, he simply took another step as he grew older and got a year of high level competition under his belt.


You misread the OP.. Everyone knows a player's production increases during his career, but efficiency normally remains relatively steady throughout a players career - if a player is a 42% FG shooter, he will remain within a few points of this figure throughout his career.. he won't all of a sudden become a 48% shooter.

Regarding Lebron's massive 1-year efficiency increase in 2005 - it's well known that the rule changes helped everyone's efficiency (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) that year, so it's not logical to single out Lebron's improvement as the result of something else.

[ralph_i_el]

LOL at you guys trying to defend 41.7% FG, 48% TS, and 99 ORtg.. oh, and it's just coincidence this was the ONE AND ONLY YEAR he played under the old rules.

Yeah, even 40-year old Jordan did better the prior years in both 2002 and 2003 (and he also led his team to 19 more wins).

But again, fortunately for Lebron, since the new rules were implemented in 2005, dribble-penetration has occurred more than any time in history - it has become an automatic, built-in component of the game and all perimeter players have been the beneficiary.
.

MJ posted a 0/0/0 on 0% shooting in the NBA at age 19.

[ralph_i_el]

You misread the OP.. Everyone knows a player's production increases during his career, but efficiency normally remains relatively steady throughout a players career - if a player is a 42% FG shooter, he will remain within a few points of this figure throughout his career.. he won't all of a sudden become a 48% shooter.

Regarding Lebron's massive 1-year efficiency increase in 2005 - it's well known that the rule changes helped everyone's efficiency (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) that year, so it's not logical to single out Lebron's improvement as the result of something else.
This is completely pulled out of your ass. Just making shit up at this point.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

So you're telling me an 18/19 year old kid put up 21/6/6 in the toughest defensive era in NBA history? Jesus Christ, even I as a HUGE MJ fan can't deny it anymore: LeBron is the GOAT.

[3ball]

MJ posted a 0/0/0 on 0% shooting in the NBA at age 19.
Jordan averaged 19.6 PPG as a junior at North Carolina - this was months before he entered the NBA and averaged 28.2 PPG.

It's common for the scoring of college players be much higher in the NBA - infact, i guarantee that lebron only averages like 14-16 PPG (with great all-round numbers) if he had played in college.. obviously, he isn't capable of averaging more than Jordan did at North Carolina.

At 19 years of age, Jordan was a freshman and averaging 13.6 PPG.. Again, this is more than Lebron would have averaged.

[Prometheus]

LeBron was BY FAR the best rookie to ever come out of high school. I honestly thought you were smarter than this, 3ball.

[3ball]

LeBron was BY FAR the best rookie to ever come out of high school. I honestly thought you were smarter than this, 3ball.
Are you saying Lebron would have averaged more than Jordan did at North Carolina?

Jordan averaged 19.6 PPG as a junior at North Carolina - this was months before he entered the NBA and averaged 28.2 PPG.

It's common for the scoring of college players be much higher in the NBA - infact, i guarantee that Lebron only averages like 14-16 PPG (with great all-round numbers) if he had played in college.. Obviously, Lebron isn't capable of averaging more than Jordan did at North Carolina.

At 19 years of age, Jordan was a freshman and averaging 13.6 PPG.. Again, this is more than Lebron would have averaged.

[ImKobe]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.

13.5 ppg and he only took 10.5 shots a game, probably played like 20 mpg lol and he was 18 for almost all of the year so...

[Prometheus]

Are you saying Lebron would have averaged more than Jordan did at North Carolina?

No, actually I'm saying that of all the rookies to ever come out of high school into the NBA, LeBron was BY FAR the best one.

I can see why you thought I was talking about Jordan and North Carolina. My choice of words made it seem that way.

[305Baller]

Good stats for a kid in the league.

[3ball]

13.5 ppg and he only took 10.5 shots a game, probably played like 20 mpg lol and he was 18 for almost all of the year so...


Exactly.. Lebron's scoring at North Carolina would be materially lower than Jordan's was.

So it's a moot point that Lebron was only 19 when he put up horrific efficiency stats in 2004 (his only season under the old hand-checking, paint-camping, and more physical rules).

Lebron's line as a freshman at North Carolina in 1982 would be something like 11 PPG, 6 RPG, 2.5 APG.. on worse shooting than MJ's blistering 54% because Lebron's a lot worse at 2-pointers (no 3-pt line back then).
.

[ImKobe]

No, actually I'm saying that of all the rookies to ever come out of high school into the NBA, LeBron was BY FAR the best one.

I can see why you thought I was talking about Jordan and North Carolina. My choice of words made it seem that way.

More like he got the best opportunity out of any player coming out of HS because he was drafted by Cleveland

37.5 mpg his rookie year and has the green light to do everything on the court, how many other guys got that kind of a chance right out of the gate?

KG was probably better his rookie year, but he didn't start getting the minutes until about 40 games into the season.

[Prometheus]

More like he got the best opportunity out of any player coming out of HS because he was drafted by Cleveland

37.5 mpg his rookie year and has the green light to do everything on the court, how many other guys got that kind of a chance right out of the gate?

KG was probably better his rookie year, but he didn't start getting the minutes until about 40 games into the season.

You can offer that explanation if you want. LeBron was put in a position to lead a team. Maybe someone else could have been better. The fact is still the same - LeBron James (LeBron James.) was BY FAR the best NBA rookie out of high school. Ever.

Anything else?

[ImKobe]

Exactly.. Lebron's scoring would be worse than Jordan's was at North Carolina.

So it's a moot point that Lebron was only 19 when he put up horrific efficiency stats in 2004 (his only season under the old hand-checking, paint-camping, and more physical rules).

Lebron's line as a freshman at North Carolina in 1982 would be something like 11 PPG, 6 RPG, 2.5 APG.. on worse shooting than Jordan because he's a lot worse at 2-pointers.

Lebron wasn't even the best rookie that year if we look at the production

Lebron: 20.9/5.5/5.9 on 41,7/29/75 shooting, 18.3 PER, .078 WS/48, missed Playoffs with a 35-47 record, team was 2-1 playing without him.

Melo: 21/6.1/2.8 on 42,6/32/78 shooting, 17.6 PER, .098 WS/48, led a team to the Playoffs with a 43-29 record

[ralph_i_el]

Exactly.. Lebron's scoring at North Carolina would be materially lower than Jordan's was.

So it's a moot point that Lebron was only 19 when he put up horrific efficiency stats in 2004 (his only season under the old hand-checking, paint-camping, and more physical rules).

Lebron's line as a freshman at North Carolina in 1982 would be something like 11 PPG, 6 RPG, 2.5 APG.. on worse shooting than MJ's blistering 54% because Lebron's a lot worse at 2-pointers (no 3-pt line back then).
.
:rolleyes: nobody in college was stopping Bron from getting to the rim at will

[ralph_i_el]

Lebron wasn't even the best rookie that year if we look at the production

Lebron: 20.9/5.5/5.9 on 41,7/29/75 shooting, 18.3 PER, .078 WS/48, missed Playoffs with a 35-47 record, team was 2-1 playing without him.

Melo: 21/6.1/2.8 on 42,6/32/78 shooting, 17.6 PER, .098 WS/48, led a team to the Playoffs with a 43-29 record

Melo went to college....

[plowking]

Bron is better than MJ.

Serious.

[navy]

Lebron wasn't even the best rookie that year if we look at the production

Lebron: 20.9/5.5/5.9 on 41,7/29/75 shooting, 18.3 PER, .078 WS/48, missed Playoffs with a 35-47 record, team was 2-1 playing without him.

Melo: 21/6.1/2.8 on 42,6/32/78 shooting, 17.6 PER, .098 WS/48, led a team to the Playoffs with a 43-29 record





Melo went to Syracuse

[ImKobe]

You can offer that explanation if you want. LeBron was put in a position to lead a team. Maybe someone else could have been better. The fact is still the same - LeBron James (LeBron James.) was BY FAR the best NBA rookie out of high school. Ever.

Anything else?

It's not BY FAR. He wasn't that good as a rook.

KG, when he started getting 30+ mpg averaged 14/9 with nearly 2 steals a game and over 2 blocks a game on 53% shooting (in 42 games).

KG put up some monster stat lines when he got the minutes.

[navy]

This is not a great feat - most rookies out of HS are not that great, so Lebron didn't need to be that good.. All he needed to do was shoot 41.7% FG, 48% TS, and sport a 99 ORtg.... :applause:

But enough of your derail - the original point was that Lebron's scoring at North Carolina would be materially lower than Jordan's was.

So it's a moot point that Lebron was only 19 when he put up horrific efficiency stats in 2004 (his only season under the old hand-checking, paint-camping, and more physical rules).

Lebron's line as a freshman at North Carolina in 1982 would be something like 11 PPG, 6 RPG, 2.5 APG.. on worse shooting than MJ's blistering 54% because Lebron's a lot worse at 2-pointers (no 3-pt line back then).
How can being fresh out of highschool be a moot point?

[ImKobe]

Melo went to Syracuse

Where did I say that Melo came out of the HS? I said he wasn't even the best rookie in 04.

[navy]

Where did I say that Melo came out of the HS? I said he wasn't even the best rookie in 04.
Prometheus never claimed that he was/

[3ball]

Lebron James was BY FAR the best NBA rookie out of high school. Ever.


This is not a great feat - most rookies out of HS are really bad, so Lebron didn't need to be anything special to be better than them.. All he needed to do was shoot 41.7% FG, 48% TS, and sport a 99 ORtg, worse than 40-year old Jordan.... :applause:

But enough of your derail - the original point was that Lebron's scoring at North Carolina would be materially lower than Jordan's was - so it's a moot point that Lebron was only 19 when he put up horrific efficiency stats in 2004 (his only season under the old rules).

Lebron's line as a freshman at North Carolina in 1982 would be something like 11 PPG, 6 RPG, 2.5 APG.. on worse shooting than MJ's blistering 54% because Lebron's a lot worse at 2-pointers (no 3-pt line back then)... Btw, if Dean Smith was not a fan of ball-domination, so there's a chance he really restricted Lebron's minutes altogether.

[ImKobe]

How can being fresh out of highschool be a moot point?

Because his efficiency all of a sudden skyrocketed, coincidentally when the rules got changed, and it's not because he all of a sudden became a great shooter or some shit, just that it got easier for him when driving to the rim thanks to the rule changes.

[Prometheus]

most rookies out of HS are really bad

Ethering yourself and you don't even see it. I can't believe I'm actually posting in this bullshit thread of yours.

[ImKobe]

Prometheus never claimed that he was/

I don't care, it was just something to add on top of the overratedness of Lebron's rookie season. Dude was average efficiency-wise and his team missed the Playoffs and had a better record without him playing that season. All it shows me is Kevin Love Minnesota type empty stats that aren't even that great.

[3ball]

Ethering yourself and you don't even see it. I can't believe I'm actually posting in this bullshit thread of yours.
Enough of your derail - the original point was that Lebron's scoring at North Carolina would be materially lower than Jordan's was - so it's a moot point that Lebron was only 19 when he put up horrific efficiency stats in 2004 (his only season under the old rules).

Lebron's line as a freshman at North Carolina in 1982 would be something like 11 PPG, 6 RPG, 2.5 APG.. on worse shooting than MJ's blistering 54% because Lebron's a lot worse at 2-pointers (no 3-pt line back then)... Btw, Dean Smith was not a fan of ball-domination, so there's a good chance he restricted Lebron's minutes altogether.

[ImKobe]

enough of your derail - the original point was that Lebron's scoring at North Carolina would be materially lower than Jordan's was - so it's a moot point that Lebron was only 19 when he put up horrific efficiency stats in 2004 (his only season under the old rules).

Lebron's line as a freshman at North Carolina in 1982 would be something like 11 PPG, 6 RPG, 2.5 APG.. on worse shooting than MJ's blistering 54% because Lebron's a lot worse at 2-pointers (no 3-pt line back then)... Btw, if Dean Smith was not a fan of ball-domination, so there's a good chance he restricted Lebron's minutes altogether.

He did that to Jordan, look at his 2 other seasons in NC when he got the minutes/touches.

[Prometheus]

Because his efficiency all of a sudden skyrocketed, coincidentally when the rules got changed, and it's not because he all of a sudden became a great shooter or some shit, just that it got easier for him when driving to the rim thanks to the rule changes.

.438 - Kobe's FG% in '04
.433 - Kobe's FG% in '05

Did the rules just change for LeBron or the entire league?

[3ball]

He did that to Jordan, look at his 2 other seasons in NC when he got the minutes/touches.
Exactly - but even as a sophomore and junior, Jordan only averaged 14 shots per game, so Dean Smith restricted Jordan his entire college career.

And I think Dean Smith would have restricted Lebron even more than he restricted Jordan.

I don't think Lebron's ball-dominant style would have flied back then AT ALL.. Back then, they moved the ball and played team ball without extended dribble-initiation or ball-domination - that stuff is new and more common in today's era.

Accordingly, he would have frequently been buried on the bench his freshman year, kind of like he was in his first international experience in 2004 (when they got beat).
.

[ImKobe]

.438 - Kobe's FG% in '04
.433 - Kobe's FG% in '05

Did the rules just change for LeBron or the entire league?

Kobe played injured in 05, he had shoulder and knee issues all year and needed surgeries and missed a lot of games. I think we all saw how dominant he was in 06 and how well Wade exploited the rule changes in the Finals that year.

Kobe, Iverson, Lebron, Wade, Melo, Arenas and most perimeter players all benefited from the rule change.

[Prometheus]

enough of your derail - the original point was that Lebron's scoring at North Carolina would be materially lower than Jordan's was - so it's a moot point that Lebron was only 19 when he put up horrific efficiency stats in 2004 (his only season under the old rules).

If that was your original point, then why did you say this instead:


Lebron actually played one season under the old rules that allowed hand-checking and physical play - it was his rookie season in 2004 when he shot 41.7% FG, 48% TS, and 99 ORtg - this is embarrassing by any standard, and would be embarrassing for any player.

But fortunately for Lebron, since the new rules were implemented in 2005, dribble-penetration has occurred more than any time in history.. It has become an automatic, built-in component of the game and all perimeter players have been the beneficiary - this is proven by league-wide offensive rating, which experienced it's largest 1-year increase ever from 2004 to 2005 (102.9 to 106.1).

The wider driving lanes (thanks to spacing) and aforementioned rule changes designed to make penetration easier have ushered in today's golden age of dribble penetration, as the league intended (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html).

The spacing-inspired wider lanes are actually a bonus, because a simple high screen or isolation play is all that's needed to take advantage of the hand-check ban and get in the lane.. Wings like Harden, Kobe and Lebron live off these plays, along with all point guards.. Previous era wings would be no different.
.

??

If you want to have a fantasy about what LeBron James (LeBron James.) would have done as a Tarheel, you should probably say that instead of pretending to talk about rule changes and his statistics.

[Sarcastic]

The saying goes "the only person to keep Jordan under 20 was Dean Smith".

LeBron under Smith would be like 10/5/2.

[Prometheus]

Kobe played injured in 05, he had shoulder and knee issues all year and needed surgeries and missed a lot of games. I think we all saw how dominant he was in 06 and how well Wade exploited the rule changes in the Finals that year.

Kobe, Iverson, Lebron, Wade, Melo, Arenas and most perimeter players all benefited from the rule change.

Damn, you're right. Skyrocketed all the way up to .450 in '06. You can really see that he reaped the benefits of those rule changes. The numbers just scream it at you.

[3ball]

.438 - Kobe's FG% in '04
.433 - Kobe's FG% in '05

Did the rules just change for LeBron or the entire league?


It's common knowledge (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) that in 2005, league-wide ORtg had it's largest 1-year increase ever due to the rule changes, so it's not logical to single out Lebron's improvement and say his improvement was due to something else.
.

[Prometheus]

League-wide ORtg had the biggest 1-year increase that it's ever had in 2005.

This proves what was already common knowledge (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html): offense improved league-wide in 2005, so it's not logical to single out Lebron's improvement and say it was due to something else.

Although you are correct about league-wide offensive improvement that year, it is fallacious to compare the statistical improvement of a single player to those of entire teams.

If you want to convince me that LeBron's statistical improvement has more to do with the rule changes than it does the growth of an extremely young player, you need to demonstrate that most other first-option scoring wing players saw comparable improvements without being so young.

[warriorfan]

Do you cats even play ball? If you try to D up a guy with zero hand checking allowed it's literally a whole new ball game

[3ball]

Do you cats even play ball? If you try to D up a guy with zero hand checking allowed it's literally a whole new ball game
these guys have never played ball so they are unaware and in denial about how the game really works, and instead argue so they can cling to their misguided beliefs on the game.

it's analogous to white people who never experienced or saw racism, so they are highly skeptical and don't really believe it when someone says it happened (like on tv).

[JohnFreeman]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.
damn

[Prometheus]

If you try to D up a guy with zero hand checking allowed it's literally a whole new ball game

Yo not a single person has denied that.

[3ball]

Although you are correct about league-wide offensive improvement that year, it is fallacious to compare the statistical improvement of a single player to those of entire teams.

If you want to convince me that LeBron's statistical improvement has more to do with the rule changes than it does the growth of an extremely young player, you need to demonstrate that most other first-option scoring wing players saw comparable improvements without being so young.


Age has nothing to do with it - the rule changes didn't discriminate based on age - they helped everyone.. just like the spacing and resulting wider driving lanes helps everyone too.

But in reality, the spacing and wider driving lanes are just a bonus - all it takes is a high screen roll or isolation play to take advantage of the hand-check ban and get in the lane.. Guys like Harden, Lebron, Kobe, and all point guards live off these plays.. Previous era wings would be no different.

It's a fact that dribble penetration occurs more than ever before - the rule changes were designed to open up the middle of the floor, create wider driving lanes, reduce physicality and make penetration easier.. This is not my interpretation of the rule changes - it's the NBA's.. So it is ludicrous to say that previous era wings would struggle today, when they'd be able to get in the lane easier than ever before.

[Milbuck]

LeBron James.

[3ball]

You guys ACTUALLY WATCH the games right?

All teams today initiate possessions with some sort of dribble-penetration towards the basket - it's simply the most readily available option and the easiest way to initiate offense in today's game.

Most of the time, the penetrator literally just waltzes into a massive spacing-enhanced driving lane completely untouched after a high screen roll or isolation play of some kind.

This is exactly what happens on the typical possession in today's game - just watch ANY game for literally 30 seconds.. It just doesn't take much to get in the lane nowadays - very ordinary guys and stiffs like Ramon Sessions get in the lane whenever they want.

Dribble-penetration occurs much more today than any time in history and it's a well-documented fact that this was the NBA's exact intention (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html)... So it's ludicrous to say that previous era wings would struggle today, when they'd be able to get in the lane easier than ever before.

[Prometheus]

Age has nothing to do with it - the rule changes didn't discriminate based on age - they helped everyone.. just like the spacing and resulting wider driving lanes helps everyone too.

But if you want to show that LeBron's improvement had more to do with the rule changes than it did his youth and inexperience, then you must be able to demonstrate that those without such youth and inexperience saw similar improvements. Do you understand this or is your brain just inferior?



it is ludicrous to say that previous era wings would struggle today, when they'd be able to get in the lane easier than ever before.

No shit. Jordan, Bird, Julius, Dominique... everyone who dominated the wing in the '80s would dominate today. No one thinks they would struggle.

[3ball]

then you must be able to demonstrate that those without such youth and inexperience saw similar improvements.


Lebron's ORtg increased from 99 in 2004, to 114 in 2005.. this huge increase was part of the record increase in league-wide ORtg that same year.

League-wide offense improved more than it ever had before in 2005, which can only mean that players individually had better stats too - some players saw their efficiency increase (Lebron, Manu, Dirk, Iverson, Pierce, Nash.. most everyone) and others saw their actual production increase (Lebron, Kobe, Arenas, Nash.. most everyone).

You are simply in constant denial - you, ralph, flpiii, dr.J4ever... you guys are the worst... you probably still think lebron is not a ball-dominator, even though he and harden are the only non-point guards in the whole league that dominate the ball as much as point guards.. :rolleyes:





No shit. Jordan, Bird, Julius, Dominique... everyone who dominated the wing in the '80s would dominate today.


Obviously, but the point is that they would dominate in large part because they'd be able to get in the lane easier today than any previous era.
.

[oarabbus]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.


holy shit, 3ball wrecked by the first response. thread backfire

[3ball]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.


how can you think this is logical?.. the college game is a slower-paced game with no shot clock.

jordan averaged 19.6 PPG as a junior... then he averaged 28.2 PPG as a rookie in the NBA.

it's common for the scoring of college players to be higher in the NBA - infact, i guarantee that lebron averages like 13-16 PPG (with great all-round numbers) if he had played in college.

obviously, there's no way lebron averages more at North Carolina than jordan did.

[Uncle Drew]

how can you think this is logical?.. the college game is a slower-paced game with no shot clock.

jordan averaged 19.6 PPG as a junior... then he averaged 28.2 PPG as a rookie in the NBA.

it's common for the scoring of college players to be higher in the NBA - infact, i guarantee that lebron averages like 13-16 PPG (with great all-round numbers) if he had played in college.

obviously, there's no way lebron averages more at North Carolina than jordan did.
Your thread ended after one reply, why are you still going?

Kareem > Jordan, btw.

[3ball]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.


So you are saying Lebron averages more PPG at North Carolina than Jordan?.... :yaohappy:

#learnhowthegameworks





Kareem > Jordan btw


kareem was a #2 for four of his six championships and required FAR more help for all of them - these things make it impossible for him to match MJ.

[warriorfan]

Lebron's ORtg increased from 99 in 2004, to 114 in 2005.. this huge increase was part of the record increase in league-wide ORtg that same year.

League-wide offense improved more than it ever had before in 2005, which can only mean that players individually had better stats too - some players saw their efficiency increase (Lebron, Manu, Dirk, Iverson, Pierce, Nash.. most everyone) and others saw their actual production increase (Lebron, Kobe, Arenas, Nash.. most everyone).

You are simply in constant denial - you, ralph, flpiii, dr.J4ever... you guys are the worst... you probably still think lebron is not a ball-dominator, even though he and harden are the only non-point guards in the whole league that dominate the ball as much as point guards.. :rolleyes:



Obviously, but the point is that they would dominate in large part because they'd be able to get in the lane easier today than any previous era.
.


Did someone order a triple ether on the rocks?

[Uncle Drew]

So you are saying Lebron averages more PPG at North Carolina than Jordan?.... :yaohappy:

#learnhowthegameworks

Stop editting my quotes. /thread after two minutes, deal with it.


kareem was a #2 for four of his six championships and required FAR more help for all of them - these things make it impossible for him to match MJ.
Kareem is the greatest to ever play the game.

[3ball]

I guess you have to ask yourself the question - what is more impressive?

1) Lebron on garbage NBA team, stat-padding his ass off for 20.9 PPG, 41.7% FG, 48.8% TS, 99 ORtg, 37 minutes per game

2) Jordan playing team ball on his way to winning his team the NCAA championship as a freshman for 13.5 PPG, 53.4% FG, 10.5 shot attempts per game (minutes unknown).. winning the championship back when it meant something - many more players graduating
.

[warriorfan]

Stop editting my quotes. /thread after two minutes, deal with it.


Kareem is the greatest to ever play the game.


Let me guess, you're a Laker fan.



:yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy:

[Uncle Drew]

Let me guess, you're a Laker fan.



:yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy:
You are wrong.

[Quickening]

I guess you have to ask yourself the question - what is more impressive?

1) Lebron on garbage NBA team, stat-padding his ass off for 20.9 PPG, 41.7% FG, 48.8% TS, 99 ORtg, 37 minutes per game

2) Jordan playing team ball on his way to winning his team the NCAA championship as a freshman for 13.5 PPG, 53.4% FG, 10.3 shot attempts per game.. winning the championship back when it meant something - many more players graduating
.

Ill take the 19 year old who is dominating men, that the guy playing with boys :lol

[3ball]

Ill take the 19 year old who is dominating men, that the guy playing with boys :lol
lol at dominating.. 40-year old Jordan in 2003 played better than rookie Lebron in 2004 - fact - do you think 40-year old Jordan was "dominating"?

i feel like the guy chucking his way to 21 PPG on 99 ORtg for a garbage NBA team can't get 13.5 PPG as a freshman, play perfect team ball, and win Dean Smith his 1st NCAA championship

[ralph_i_el]

lol at dominating.. 40-year old Jordan in 2003 played better than rookie Lebron in 2004 - fact - do you think 40-year old Jordan was "dominating"?

i feel like the guy chucking his way to 21 PPG on 99 ORtg for a garbage NBA team can't get 13.5 PPG and as a freshman and win Dean Smith his 1st NCAA championship

well the big difference between Rookie Lebron and Sophomore Lebron statistically is the huge jump in 3p%

Is that because they took handchecking away? Or because he spent a year playing pro basketball? :rolleyes:

[warriorfan]

You are wrong.


even worse, instead of a homer you just flat out dont know ball

"KAJ GOAT BRO"

:yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy:

[3ball]

well the big difference between Rookie Lebron and Sophomore Lebron statistically is the huge jump in 3p%

Is that because they took handchecking away? Or because he spent a year playing pro basketball? :rolleyes:


Lebron's 2-point percentage increased from 43.8% to 49.9%.

But what does this have to do with Lebron's chucking for 21 PPG on 41.7% and 99 ORtg being < Jordan's 13.5 PPG on 53.4% and 10 shots per game, playing perfect team ball, and leading Dean Smith to his 1st NCAA championship?

[3ball]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/e6f4537052083526053f97f495773243/tumblr_muklpm8XUh1sjom4fo1_250.gif

[warriorfan]

these stans be shook

[3ball]

these stans be shook
Yeah, here's an idea for the stans..

Imagine you work for Draftxpress and here's your scouting video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9myzmzmTSM


Predict PPG and efficiency for this player as a rookie.
.

[warriorfan]

Yeah, here's an idea for the stans..

Imagine you work for Draftxpress and here's your scouting video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9myzmzmTSM


Predict PPG and efficiency for this player as a rookie.
.

Sky is the limit. With his length and athleticism he plays like someone who is 6'9'' yet he has 6' guard speed. There is no comparable player, a true one of a kind.

[3ball]

Sky is the limit. With his length and athleticism he plays like someone who is 6'9'' yet he has 6' guard speed. There is no comparable player, a true one of a kind.
the video quality in Part 2 would make it a better scouting tool actually:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9wQ64feSbc


18-19 year-old MJ > rookie Lebron and his 99 ORtg easily.

MJ's off-ball game was already GOAT.
.

[3ball]

one more thing - MJ's sophomore year PPG was actually more than his junior year - this gives a strong indication that Jordan could've put up the same NBA rookie numbers after his sophomore year that he put up after his junior year.

[andgar923]

OP

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/Fonzie_jumps_the_shark.PNG

[ralph_i_el]

the video quality in Part 2 would make it a better scouting tool actually:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9wQ64feSbc


18-19 year-old MJ > rookie Lebron and his 99 ORtg easily.

MJ's off-ball game was already GOAT.
.

MJ didn't even go first overall in the draft after 3 years of school.

Bron went first in almost as stacked a draft after 0 years in school.

so your premise is wack, like 95% of your posts.

[3ball]

Bron went first in almost as stacked a draft after 0 years in school.


If Carmelo Anthony was in the 1984 draft, he would not have been a top 5 pick.

Then there's the obvious - it's well known that the 1984 draft is the most stacked draft of all time.

Look, there was a documentary about it recently on NBA TV - it was called "The 1984 Draft":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE3ePRGI064


Btw, MJ's sophomore year PPG was actually more than his junior year - so it's most likely that Jordan could've put up the same NBA rookie numbers after his sophomore year that he put up after his junior year.

[Im Still Ballin]

Give it up 3ball

You're done mate.

[3ball]

Top 5 picks in 1984 Draft:

Hakeem
Sam Bowie
Michael Jordan
Sam Perkins
Charles Barkely


Lebron goes no higher than #4.

It's well known that the 1984 draft is the greatest draft class of all time.. there's never been any debate about it.

[ralph_i_el]

If Carmelo Anthony was in the 1984 draft, he would not have been a top 5 pick.

Then there's the obvious - it's well known that the 1984 draft is the most stacked draft of all time.


1984 is the best draft of all time. The 2003 draft is probably the second best.

You really saying Melo doesn't get picked over Sam Perkins or Chuck(not saying Melo>Chuck in the nba, I'm just saying as a prospect)? He led his team to a national championship as a freshman. He was one of the most complete prospects of all time....as a freshman. And if Melo was eligible for the '84 draft he probably would have had 3-4 years of school instead one just the one.

You're a moron.


Top 5 picks in 1984 Draft:

Hakeem
Sam Bowie
Michael Jordan
Sam Perkins
Charles Barkely


Lebron goes no higher than #4.

It's well known that the 1984 draft is the greatest draft class of all time.. there's never been any debate about it.
moron confirmed. Comparing high school Lebron to a bunch of upperclassmen.

Send LeBron back for the 1984 draft and he'd have 3-4 years of college under his belt. He'd be at the age when he was scoring 30+ppg in the NBA.

[andgar923]

Is 3Ball seriously arguing that 18 year old Mj is better than 18 year old Bron?

And we can judge how well Bron would've played under hand checking rules based off his rookie season (which btw were still watered down):facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[3ball]

1984 is the best draft of all time. The 2003 draft is probably the second best.


neither melo nor lebron go higher than #4 in the 1984 draft, no matter how many years of college you want to gift them.





Melo was one of the most complete prospects of all time....as a freshman. And if Melo was eligible for the '84 draft he probably would have had 3-4 years of school instead one just the one.


melo wasn't as big or as complete a prospect as mark aguirre - they were both viewed as scorers and nothing else - and that's how they both turned out, although aguirre was the better team player and passer.
.

[3ball]

Is 3Ball seriously arguing that 18 year old Mj is better than 18 year old Bron?


Lebron's PPG at North Carolina would not have been as high as Jordan's.

So there's no need to he enamored with Lebron's 20.9 PPG achieved with a 99 ORtg on a horrible team.. That's not domination by any stretch - 40-year old Jordan actually did better than that one year earlier in 2003, and no one was saying he dominated.

That type of Iverson efficiency and chucking is not as impressive as freshman Jordan's 13.5 PPG on 10 shots per game and 53.4% FG, plus perfect team ball and ending the season by leading Dean Smith to his first national championship.

College Lebron probably never averages more than 15 PPG... :confusedshrug:
.

[dubeta]

Sad how Jordan couldn't even shoot better than 42% in the 2000's, while he could shoot 50+% in the 90's

Shows how much tougher defenses are now days


Jordan scored 28ppg his last season in the 90's, and was barely a 20ppg 40% fg shooting role player in the 2000's

I doubt prime Jordan would be able to score more than 25 ppg in this era with the zone defense and requirement to shoot the 3 which Jordan could never do

[3ball]

Jordan was barely a 20ppg 40% fg shooting role player in the 2000's



EXACTLY - and yet MJ's stats as a 40-year old in 2003 were clearly better than Lebron's rookie stats in 2004.

That's how we know Lebron's rookie stats are not impressive or dominating in any way, because they aren't any better than Wizard Jordan, the "role player", as you called him - rookie Lebron was worse than that role player.

And his stats reflected that - 99 ORtg, 41.7% FG, 48% TS... that's simply embarrassing, and not as good as what MJ did at North Carolina - we already know that Lebron's PPG at North Carolina wouldn't have been as high as MJ's.





I doubt prime Jordan would be able to score more than 25 ppg in this era with the zone defense


Some players say they dislike zone, but when players talk about defense, MOST of their statements say it's harder to score against hand-checking, higher physicality, no-spacing and paint-camping - these things from previous eras more than offset today's zone defense.





and requirement to shoot the 3 which Jordan could never do


Thru the age of 29 years old (thru Jordan's 1st three peat), Jordan had a career 35.2% playoff 3-point percentage and a 40.7% Finals percentage - this is higher than Lebron's 33.3% playoff and 30.2% Finals averages.

Source: basketball-reference.com
.

[Foster5k]

3Ball: "When Jordan came out of his mother's womb, he had a max vertical higher than LeBron at the same age."

ISH: "Go away!"

3Ball: :cry:

[Uncle Drew]

Lebron goes no higher than #4.
:oldlol:

[Foster5k]

While on his death bed, these are 3ball's dying words:

3ball: "Jordan...is...better...than..........LeBron."

[3ball]

3Ball: "Lebron's scoring at North Carolina would not have been as high as Jordan's... Also, like all perimeter players, he benefited greatly from the rule changes in 2005, and it's reflected in the abnormally massive increase in his efficiency that season."

ISH: "Stop saying stuff like that... we want 2/5 to be GOAT!"

3ball: :facepalm


Fixed

[navy]

Fixed
Nobody here has claimed Lebron is better than Jordan except trolls. Quit being so insecure.

[3ball]

:oldlol:
high school lebron doesn't go higher than a polished, seasoned barkley, hakeem, or jordan.

and sam bowie was a far better prospect than darko ever was, so bowie could easily be considered a better prospect than lebron as well - bowie WAS considered a better prospect than Jordan, so....

[3ball]

The new rules in 2005 ushered in the golden age of dribble-penetration for everyone, not just Lebron - dribble-penetration occurs more now than any time in history - even crappy guards and wings get in the lane with ease and as a standard.

The rule changes were designed to open up the middle of the floor, reduce physicality and make penetration easier.. This is not my interpretation of the rule changes - it's the NBA's (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html).. So it is ludicrous to say that previous era wings would struggle today, when they'd be able to get in the lane easier than ever before.

Additionally, spacing has created wider driving lanes.. But they are just a bonus - all it takes is a high screen roll or isolation play to take advantage of the hand-check ban and get in the lane.. Guys like Harden, Lebron, Kobe, and all point guards live off these plays.. Previous era wings would be no different.

[Foster5k]

3ball's letter to Michael Jordan:

"Dear Jordan, I wrote you but you still ain't calling
I left my cell, my pager, and my home phone at the bottom
I sent two letters back in autumn, you must not-a got 'em
There probably was a problem at the post office or something
Sometimes I scribble addresses too sloppy when I jot 'em...."

[Sakkreth]

As a 19 year old MJ was averaging 13 ppg in college.

/thread

[Ne 1]

I wish these clowns would actually watch games from their "golden era" and realize how common 70+ FTA games were, how so many flagrant fouls were "soft" in the 90s due to the bad boys era, and realize how many touch fouls were called amongst other things. The most physical era in the NBA was actually the 70s. And rules eliminated REAL, physical hand-checking in 1979:


[QUOTE]1978-79
Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through

[Ne 1]

People also act as if this hand-check was some giant wall players had to work around. A hand-check is exactly what it says it is, a "check". Helps track the player. You could not interfere with the players movement or push on it. Like today, it is a foul. Was back then, is now.

It's funny because if your hand-check in any way obstructed the player from getting to the basket (ie. too physical, nearing a push) you would instantly be whistled for a foul. The hand-check was more physical in the 70s than 80s/early 90s. But still, to be honest I'm not even sure the 80s were even more physical than today. You see the same number of ridiculous calls (players bitched and flopped less often though) back then as now. People making these wild allegations wouldn't know though, they've seen a couple of cherry picked YouTube clips and come to conclusions. I doubt many have even sat through a single average 80s regular season game. 60+ FTA games were the average back then (look it up). For all the moaning about free throw attempts after 2005, teams on average shot less than 1 extra FT the following year.


And lets completely ignore the rules that favored isolation ball and significantly worse team defense than what we have now. From the early 80s when they started to crack down on and clarified the following rules:

[QUOTE]a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16

[Roundball_Rock]

This is not a massive 1-year increase - Lebron's increase was more, and it was across the board.


This is not a massive increase? :biggums:

Drexler in 1984: 8/3/2 on 45.1%
Drexler in 1985: 17/6/6 on 49.4%


You're forgetting that certain brands of basketball carry with it higher or lower offensive ratings - the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increases ORtg in the calculation - it's just the way the stat is calculated.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease ORtg in the calculation.


Nice try but the three pointer was not a big part of the game in the early 80's and the NBA did not even have a three pointer in the 70's yet offensive rating then was comparable to the normal range that has been the case with the exceptions being the high ratings from 1983-1997 and the low ratings in the early 2000's.


Are you saying Lebron would have averaged more than Jordan did at North Carolina?


Jordan could not have gotten drafted out of high school. There is a reason LeBron is the only high school player who was the #1 pick.




More like he got the best opportunity out of any player coming out of HS because he was drafted by Cleveland

37.5 mpg his rookie year and has the green light to do everything on the court, how many other guys got that kind of a chance right out of the gate?


Zero. KG, Kobe, T Mac, Kemp, Jermaine O'Neal simply were not good enough to be given that role fresh out of high school and in fact needed a few years to reach star status. Moses is the only similar case but he did it in the ABA. Do you really think it was just the opportunity? Do you think rookie Kobe or rookie Kemp or rookie T Mac could have produced at that level if given the minutes?



It's not BY FAR. He wasn't that good as a rook.

KG, when he started getting 30+ mpg averaged 14/9 with nearly 2 steals a game and over 2 blocks a game on 53% shooting (in 42 games).


KG as a rookie: 10/6/2 in 29 mpg.


kareem was a #2 for four of his six championships and required FAR more help for all of them - these things make it impossible for him to match MJ.

Kareem's teams were battered by injuries to his #2 and/or #3 options throughout the 70's. He won 4 rings as the #1 option but should have 6-7 rings as the #1 option and 8-9 rings overall. Your argument is essentially MJ>KAJ because MJ had exquisite luck. Peak KAJ was a 35/18/5/4 type player. That>peak MJ's 33/7/6/3.


Is that because they took handchecking away? Or because he spent a year playing pro basketball?

:D


MJ didn't even go first overall in the draft after 3 years of school.

Bron went first in almost as stacked a draft after 0 years in school.


:D great point. High school LeBron was drafted over Wade, Carmelo, Bosh; Jordan was drafted behind Sam Bowie after playing under the best college coach of that era.


it's well known that the 1984 draft is the most stacked draft of all time.

The 2003 draft is often compared to the 1984 draft. That and the 1996 draft are considered the best drafts.


Hakeem
Sam Bowie
Michael Jordan
Sam Perkins
Charles Barkely


Lebron goes no higher than #4.

You are crazy. LeBron was viewed as a GOAT-caliber player even in high school. Jordan, Bowie were viewed as guys who would become perennial all-stars and superstars, but not GOAT-caliber. LeBron would go #1 or #2. Hakeem was highly rated and more polished and a center but LeBron conceivably would go ahead of him as well given the upside that LeBron was assumed, correctly, to possess.

[Roundball_Rock]

I wish these clowns would actually watch games from their "golden era" and realize how common 70+ FTA games were, how so many flagrant fouls were "soft" in the 90s due to the bad boys era, and realize how many touch fouls were called amongst other things. The most physical era in the NBA was actually the 70s. And rules eliminated REAL, physical hand-checking in 1979:




In the 80s, I've seen hand-checking get called all the time. Commentators pointing out on replays how the guy was not allowed to hand-check etc. SI published an entire feature article in the 80s because NBA defense was perceived as a JOKE. Poor help defense, no zone, less and less physicality, and so on. That's how everybody thought of it at the time. Hand-checking was still allowed in the back court however to pressure the ball handler, but they eliminated that altogether in 1994.


The same bull shit complaints people have about the league now, people had back in the 80s/90s. I saw old timers from the 70s on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). I'll gladly upload video of couple of them talking about this because I think I saved it somewhere. And the same "hand-checking" complaints were going on in 1993, in fact here's an NY Times article:

Published: March 28, 1993




Hubie Brown on hand-checking (1993): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23m25FXgK-Y

Technically the real handcheck was made illegal in 1980 (and I have tons of clips of commentators pointing this out, making a compilation actually...Tommy Heinsohn getting pissed whenever someone got away with a handcheck on Bird or something), but you got away with it then, just like you get away with it now.

You could check but you could never impede a player's progress like you could before 1980. So, since it was legal in the 70s, I'm sure lot of you "handcheck = 90s together era" clowns will agree that 70s = GOAT defense because it was more physical. Wait...that's exactly what players from the 70s used to say, how you couldn't defend MJ with the no touch rules: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6sWXHLbZsU&#t=4m

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GL8QXYUKatA/T3ORe07boBI/AAAAAAAAA3g/WbX4xEzYmig/s320/the-rock-clapping.gif

[Im Still Ballin]

People also act as if this hand-check was some giant wall players had to work around. A hand-check is exactly what it says it is, a "check". Helps track the player. You could not interfere with the players movement or push on it. Like today, it is a foul. Was back then, is now.

It's funny because if your hand-check in any way obstructed the player from getting to the basket (ie. too physical, nearing a push) you would instantly be whistled for a foul. The hand-check was more physical in the 70s than 80s/early 90s. But still, to be honest I'm not even sure the 80s were even more physical than today. You see the same number of ridiculous calls (players bitched and flopped less often though) back then as now. People making these wild allegations wouldn't know though, they've seen a couple of cherry picked YouTube clips and come to conclusions. I doubt many have even sat through a single average 80s regular season game. 60+ FTA games were the average back then (look it up). For all the moaning about free throw attempts after 2005, teams on average shot less than 1 extra FT the following year.


And lets completely ignore the rules that favored isolation ball and significantly worse team defense than what we have now. From the early 80s when they started to crack down on and clarified the following rules:



These rules were VERY restrictive to team defense. I'm surprised how many of these alleged old school fans can't even realize the value of this.


Please watch old school games...the entire thing not just highlights and look at how the following things negatively impact the team defense.


Also look for how much easier it is to create an isolation 1 on 1 situation for your star player.

You really think handchecking, which still was regulated, is more important than all this? I would gladly trade keeping what is above for whatever 1-2 extra FTs players shoot today (even though team FTA are actually much much lower than before, and on average a team shot less than 1 additional FT after the "new rules" were put in).

As I said REAL handchecking was eliminated back in 1979 due to an NBA rule change. The handchecking you saw after that was minor compared to that of 70's NBA, in which you were literally allowed to completely body the guy dribbling the ball. He was allowed no space back in the 70's, and the league knew that was too tough/physical so they more or less got rid of it. 80's/90's/00's/10's "hand checking" is minor.
https://photo.tinhte.vn/store/2015/01/2785311_gif.gif

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I wish these clowns would actually watch games from their "golden era" and realize how common 70+ FTA games were, how so many flagrant fouls were "soft" in the 90s due to the bad boys era, and realize how many touch fouls were called amongst other things. The most physical era in the NBA was actually the 70s. And rules eliminated REAL, physical hand-checking in 1979:




In the 80s, I've seen hand-checking get called all the time. Commentators pointing out on replays how the guy was not allowed to hand-check etc. SI published an entire feature article in the 80s because NBA defense was perceived as a JOKE. Poor help defense, no zone, less and less physicality, and so on. That's how everybody thought of it at the time. Hand-checking was still allowed in the back court however to pressure the ball handler, but they eliminated that altogether in 1994.


The same bull shit complaints people have about the league now, people had back in the 80s/90s. I saw old timers from the 70s on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). I'll gladly upload video of couple of them talking about this because I think I saved it somewhere. And the same "hand-checking" complaints were going on in 1993, in fact here's an NY Times article:

Published: March 28, 1993




Hubie Brown on hand-checking (1993): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23m25FXgK-Y

Technically the real handcheck was made illegal in 1980 (and I have tons of clips of commentators pointing this out, making a compilation actually...Tommy Heinsohn getting pissed whenever someone got away with a handcheck on Bird or something), but you got away with it then, just like you get away with it now.

You could check but you could never impede a player's progress like you could before 1980. So, since it was legal in the 70s, I'm sure lot of you "handcheck = 90s together era" clowns will agree that 70s = GOAT defense because it was more physical. Wait...that's exactly what players from the 70s used to say, how you couldn't defend MJ with the no touch rules: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6sWXHLbZsU&#t=4m

http://i.giphy.com/ijoJB1vGhLdde.gif

[Hey Yo]

Lebron's 2-point percentage increased from 43.8% to 49.9%.

But what does this have to do with Lebron's chucking for 21 PPG on 41.7% and 99 ORtg being < Jordan's 13.5 PPG on 53.4% and 10 shots per game, playing perfect team ball, and leading Dean Smith to his 1st NCAA championship?
That would be Mr. James Worthy "leading" Dean Smith to his 1st.

After Worthy left, UNC couldn't make the final 4.

[AintNoSunshine]

So is Jordans performance with the Wizards an indicator of how he will do with todays game? LOL

[Dr.J4ever]

Another stan dominated, idiotic thread.:facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's clear from the evidence that right now perimeter players have a huge advantage over what the players did then. Look, I know the new-era fans have built this bubble of reasoning about how it was really easier to score then, but the fact is that it simply doesn't hold up to history. Don't get all caught up in across era offensive and defensive ratings. It wouldn't account for three things. 1) the rules which specifically intend to open up the game 2) players today are likely to draw more foul shots and 3) they're more likely to shoot efficiently because the lack of emphasis on long range 2's (long-midrange).

Debating what caused the decision doesn't really matter. The decision changed the way the game was played, and the result is that it opened up the game, making it easier for players who were mentioned in this thread.

[Roundball_Rock]

It's clear from the evidence that right now perimeter players have a huge advantage over what the players did then. Look, I know the new-era fans have built this bubble of reasoning about how it was really easier to score then, but the fact is that it simply doesn't hold up to history. Don't get all caught up in across era offensive and defensive ratings. It wouldn't account for three things. 1) the rules which specifically intend to open up the game 2) players today are likely to draw more foul shots and 3) they're more likely to shoot efficiently because the lack of emphasis on long range 2's (long-midrange).


That can be argued on a "per play" basis, although I am pretty sure efficiency, even if you limit it to just 2 pointers, is down relative to the 1980-1993 period.

The argument that I dispute is the notion that you can take any perimeter player from the 80's or early 90's, transport him to 2015 or 2010 and his stats, particularly scoring, would shoot through the roof. That ignores other changes in the game, namely the shift toward team ball/efficiency and away from hero/isolation ball, the consequent decrease in FGA, and the decreased minutes for stars today. In the past guys could average 39 mpg and still rank 10th in the league in mpg. This year the #2 person in mpg is at 37 mpg. Plus defensive innovation has made defenses increasingly more complex in every sport over time.

Let's take Jordan as an example since he is the one most frequently invoked. Can you envision any player taking 26 FGA in 39 mpg on a championship team today or 28 FGA in 40 mpg on a 40-42 team like MJ did? People will cherry pick stretches of seasons, i.e. Westbrook, in response but can you really see any player doing this for 82 games? Even Westbrook's situation is strictly due to Durant being hurt and is an anomaly.

FWIW, here are the career 2 pointer percentages for Jordan, Wilkins, Drexler and LeBron, Kobe, and Carmelo. This includes the old years for the first three so I will also list their stats on teams associated with their best years as a proxy to weed out their old years.

Wilkins 47.8% (48.1% as a Hawk)
Jordan 51.0% (52.0% as a Bull)
Drexler 49.8% (49.8% as both a Blazer and Rocket)

Kobe 48.1%
LeBron 53.6%
Carmelo 47.6%

These three are not dispositive--a larger sample would be needed--but from these numbers you can see, aside from the LeBron outlier (arguably the most efficient perimeter player in history among the all-time great perimeter players), the 80's/90's players shot better on 2 pointers. I suspect you would find this to be the case if you looked at a larger sample size. So while we hear about how tough it was to score in the 80's/early 90's it seems the fact is players then scored easier than they today. That is due to inferior defenses, superior players or perhaps a combination of both. People, though, act as if guys were shooting 43% to score 20 ppg against the extremely difficult defenses of that time.

[sdot_thadon]

I wish these clowns would actually watch games from their "golden era" and realize how common 70+ FTA games were, how so many flagrant fouls were "soft" in the 90s due to the bad boys era, and realize how many touch fouls were called amongst other things. The most physical era in the NBA was actually the 70s. And rules eliminated REAL, physical hand-checking in 1979:




In the 80s, I've seen hand-checking get called all the time. Commentators pointing out on replays how the guy was not allowed to hand-check etc. SI published an entire feature article in the 80s because NBA defense was perceived as a JOKE. Poor help defense, no zone, less and less physicality, and so on. That's how everybody thought of it at the time. Hand-checking was still allowed in the back court however to pressure the ball handler, but they eliminated that altogether in 1994.


The same bull shit complaints people have about the league now, people had back in the 80s/90s. I saw old timers from the 70s on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). I'll gladly upload video of couple of them talking about this because I think I saved it somewhere. And the same "hand-checking" complaints were going on in 1993, in fact here's an NY Times article:

Published: March 28, 1993




Hubie Brown on hand-checking (1993): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23m25FXgK-Y

Technically the real handcheck was made illegal in 1980 (and I have tons of clips of commentators pointing this out, making a compilation actually...Tommy Heinsohn getting pissed whenever someone got away with a handcheck on Bird or something), but you got away with it then, just like you get away with it now.

You could check but you could never impede a player's progress like you could before 1980. So, since it was legal in the 70s, I'm sure lot of you "handcheck = 90s together era" clowns will agree that 70s = GOAT defense because it was more physical. Wait...that's exactly what players from the 70s used to say, how you couldn't defend MJ with the no touch rules: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6sWXHLbZsU&#t=4m


This is not a massive increase? :biggums:

Drexler in 1984: 8/3/2 on 45.1%
Drexler in 1985: 17/6/6 on 49.4%



Nice try but the three pointer was not a big part of the game in the early 80's and the NBA did not even have a three pointer in the 70's yet offensive rating then was comparable to the normal range that has been the case with the exceptions being the high ratings from 1983-1997 and the low ratings in the early 2000's.



Jordan could not have gotten drafted out of high school. There is a reason LeBron is the only high school player who was the #1 pick.



Zero. KG, Kobe, T Mac, Kemp, Jermaine O'Neal simply were not good enough to be given that role fresh out of high school and in fact needed a few years to reach star status. Moses is the only similar case but he did it in the ABA. Do you really think it was just the opportunity? Do you think rookie Kobe or rookie Kemp or rookie T Mac could have produced at that level if given the minutes?



KG as a rookie: 10/6/2 in 29 mpg.



Kareem's teams were battered by injuries to his #2 and/or #3 options throughout the 70's. He won 4 rings as the #1 option but should have 6-7 rings as the #1 option and 8-9 rings overall. Your argument is essentially MJ>KAJ because MJ had exquisite luck. Peak KAJ was a 35/18/5/4 type player. That>peak MJ's 33/7/6/3.



:D



:D great point. High school LeBron was drafted over Wade, Carmelo, Bosh; Jordan was drafted behind Sam Bowie after playing under the best college coach of that era.



The 2003 draft is often compared to the 1984 draft. That and the 1996 draft are considered the best drafts.



You are crazy. LeBron was viewed as a GOAT-caliber player even in high school. Jordan, Bowie were viewed as guys who would become perennial all-stars and superstars, but not GOAT-caliber. LeBron would go #1 or #2. Hakeem was highly rated and more polished and a center but LeBron conceivably would go ahead of him as well given the upside that LeBron was assumed, correctly, to possess.:applause::applause: :applause:
/thread in case it wasn't by now.

[Straight_Ballin]

But fortunately for Lebron, since the new rules were implemented in 2005, dribble-penetration has occurred more than any time in history.. It has become an automatic, built-in component of the game and all perimeter players have been the beneficiary

Yep, and anyone who watched in the 80's and 90's knows that the evolution of the game has resulted in it's inferiority. The only people on ISH who say otherwise are posters that didn't watch in the 80's and 90's and who the hell is going to value their opinion when they only know one side of the story compared to those that know both sides.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Yep, and anyone who watched in the 80's and 90's knows that the evolution of the game has resulted in it's inferiority. The only people on ISH who say otherwise are posters that didn't watch in the 80's and 90's and who the hell is going to value their opinion when they only know one side of the story compared to those that know both sides.

Thats not true; you weren't even old enough to watch the 80's and 90's :coleman:

Your probably actually like 15

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Yep, and anyone who watched in the 80's and 90's knows that the evolution of the game has resulted in it's inferiority. The only people on ISH who say otherwise are posters that didn't watch in the 80's and 90's and who the hell is going to value their opinion when they only know one side of the story compared to those that know both sides.

Are you going to contribute anything apart from copy+pasting the same crap into multiple threads?

http://i.giphy.com/gbJ6u10Iq0ZXy.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: at it being so "tough" to score back in the day. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370176

[3ball]

The person responsible for implementing the new rules, Vice President of Basketball Operations Stu Jackson, told NBA.com that the rule changes were specifically designed to make penetration easier and increase shot quality for literally everyone:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

Stu Jackson: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble-penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.


NBA.com: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

Stu Jackson: With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. This has provided more time for shooters to ready themselves for quality shots. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim..


NBA.com: Doesn't the wide-open style benefit certain types of players? For example, wing players vs. frontcourt players?

Stu Jackson: The benefits of an open game are not limited to just perimeter players. An open game can benefit a post player as well. Remember, if the players are spaced wider and using more of the court, then defenses have to play those players closely because they're good shooters. The style actually serves to open up the middle of the floor. If a team has an effective post player, he would have more room to operate in the post.

[3ball]

Bottom line:

in 2005, Lebron's ORtg increased a whopping 15 points (99 to 114) - but Lebron's increase was one of MANY players that contributed to the record increase in league-wide ORtg that year.

This is undeniable - the rule changes that helped the entire league's ORtg increase a record amount in 2005, were a part of Lebron's massive increase in ORtg that same year.

[dubeta]

Bottom Line:

After scoring 28-32 ppg in the 90's, the second Jordan decided to play in the 2000s he was little more than a 20 ppg 40% shooting role player, Luke Walton with higher FG attempts

LeBron managed to improve his offense in the 2000's while Jordans got worse every year, he couldnt handle the new zone defenses of this era

[AnaheimLakers24]

Op posting actual factual facts and making these hoes shook.

[3ball]

After scoring 28-32 ppg in the 90's, the second Jordan decided to play in the 2000s


You are understating Jordan's numbers (Source: basketball-reference.com):


Thru 29 Years of Age - Playoffs:

Jordan: 34.7 PPG / 6.6 APG / 50.1% FG / 58.1% TS / 35.2% 3 PT
Lebron: 28.0 PPG / 6.4 APG / 48.2% FG / 57.8% TS / 33.3% 3 PT


Thru 29 Years of Age: Finals:

Jordan: 36.3 PPG / 7.9 APG / 52.6% FG / 40.7% 3 PT
Lebron: 24.1 PPG / 6.3 APG / 46.3% FG / 30.2% 3 PT


So Lebron must play 1.5 Finals games to match 1 Finals game from Jordan.





he couldnt handle the new zone defenses of this era


Some players say they dislike zone, but when players talk about defense, MOST of their statements say it's harder to score against hand-checking, higher physicality, no-spacing and paint-camping - these things from previous eras more than offset today's zone defense.

Also, today's NBA actually doesn't allow zone defense inside the paint - in the paint, players must remain within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of their man at all times.. this is the very definition of man-to-man defense - and it's a very strict version of man-to-man.

Otoh, in previous eras, defenders DIDN'T have to be within armslength of their man to remain in the paint and could legally paint-camp.. paint-camping IS playing a zone inside the paint.. :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan: 34.7 PPG / 6.6 APG / 50.1% FG / 58.1% TS / 35.2% 3 PT
Lebron: 28.0 PPG / 6.4 APG / 48.2% FG / 57.8% TS / 33.3% 3 PT


Can we adjust these stats to reflect significant differences in pace, league-wide scoring, league-wide FG %, league-wide defensive ratings, etc.? Also, how about including FGA and usage % along with rebounding? Thanks in advance.

For example, if you cut MJ's by 10% his line is 31.2/5.9 assists.

[3ball]

Can we adjust these stats to reflect significant differences in pace, league-wide scoring, league-wide FG %? Also, how about including FGA and usage %? Thanks in advance.


Per-100 Possession Stats Thru 29 Years of Age: PLAYOFFS


Jordan: 43.9 PPG / 8.4 APG / 50.1% FG / 58.1% TS / 35.2% 3 PT
Lebron: 36.3 PPG / 8.4 APG / 48.2% FG / 57.8% TS / 33.3% 3 PT


So 21% more scoring, same assists, better efficiency, better 3 PT shooting, vastly superior clutch.

We don't have Per-100 Possession stats for the Finals, however, we know that Jordan was averaging 36 PPG to Lebron's 24 PPG, so Lebron needed to play 1.5 Finals games to match 1 game from Jordan (36/24 = 1.5).
.

[Lebron23]

Lebron still the youngest rookie of the year in NBA History.

[Beastmode88]

Lebron still the youngest rookie of the year in NBA History.

And he's still 2 for 5.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan led the league in usage 8 times and was #2 in usage 3 times. LeBron has led the league in usage just once, 2008 and has been #2 twice.

Career regular season usage

1. Michael Jordan* 33.26
2. Dwyane Wade 31.98
3. Kobe Bryant 31.83
4. Allen Iverson 31.83
5. Carmelo Anthony 31.77
6. LeBron James 31.71
7. Russell Westbrook 30.91
8. George Gervin* 30.68
9. Kevin Durant 30.45
10. Dominique Wilkins* 30.27

In the playoffs MJ led the league in usage 6 times and was second 4 times. LeBron in the playoffs has never led the league in usage and has been second twice.

Career playoff usage

1. Michael Jordan* 35.58
2. Allen Iverson 34.34
3. Tracy McGrady 33.53
4. Carmelo Anthony 32.63
5. Russell Westbrook 32.55
6. LeBron James 31.42
7. Dominique Wilkins* 31.27
8. Kobe Bryant 31.05
9. Kevin Durant 30.47
10. Shaquille O'Neal 30.24

Hero ball is dead. Players today won't consume 36% of their team's possessions, at least on a championship team.

[Lebron23]

And he's still 2 for 5.


And you are still a $hitty poster using more than 3 alternate accounts.

[hahaitme]

Budaii, Fudge, Russwest0, Hawkfan, Bless Matthews all can vouch that is not true.

budadii and fudge are just trolls though. hawksfan will be irrelevant after atlanta get blown out of the playoffs. 3ball is straight up delusional though

[Lebron23]

Jordan led the league in usage 8 times and was #2 in usage 3 times. LeBron has led the league in usage just once, 2008 and has been #2 twice.

Career regular season usage

1. Michael Jordan* 33.26
2. Dwyane Wade 31.98
3. Kobe Bryant 31.83
4. Allen Iverson 31.83
5. Carmelo Anthony 31.77
6. LeBron James 31.71
7. Russell Westbrook 30.91
8. George Gervin* 30.68
9. Kevin Durant 30.45
10. Dominique Wilkins* 30.27

In the playoffs MJ led the league in usage 6 times and was second 4 times. LeBron in the playoffs has never led the league in usage and has been second twice.

Career playoff usage

1. Michael Jordan* 35.58
2. Allen Iverson 34.34
3. Tracy McGrady 33.53
4. Carmelo Anthony 32.63
5. Russell Westbrook 32.55
6. LeBron James 31.42
7. Dominique Wilkins* 31.27
8. Kobe Bryant 31.05
9. Kevin Durant 30.47
10. Shaquille O'Neal 30.24

Hero ball is dead. Players today won't consume 36% of their team's possessions, at least on a championship team.


http://replygif.net/thumbnail/95.gif

http://media1.giphy.com/media/10spcFioEOY7zG/200_s.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

:cheers:

Comparing MJ's raw stats to LeBron's is like comparing Wilt's raw stats to MJ's (something you never see MJ stans do, for obvious reasons). Different eras, different games, different paces. We will never see a player average 33 FGA in the Finals on a championship team in today's era so MJ's stats have to be placed in context of his era. The closest player to this is Westbrook right now minus Durant--and it is no coincidence his team is 2-5 when he scores 35+.

[3ball]

Jordan led the league in usage 8 times and was #2 in usage 3 times. LeBron has led the league in usage just once, 2008 and has been #2 twice.

Career regular season usage

1. Michael Jordan* 33.26
2. Dwyane Wade 31.98
3. Kobe Bryant 31.83
4. Allen Iverson 31.83
5. Carmelo Anthony 31.77
6. LeBron James 31.71
7. Russell Westbrook 30.91
8. George Gervin* 30.68
9. Kevin Durant 30.45
10. Dominique Wilkins* 30.27

In the playoffs MJ led the league in usage 6 times and was second 4 times. LeBron in the playoffs has never led the league in usage and has been second twice.

Career playoff usage

1. Michael Jordan* 35.58
2. Allen Iverson 34.34
3. Tracy McGrady 33.53
4. Carmelo Anthony 32.63
5. Russell Westbrook 32.55
6. LeBron James 31.42
7. Dominique Wilkins* 31.27
8. Kobe Bryant 31.05
9. Kevin Durant 30.47
10. Shaquille O'Neal 30.24

Hero ball is dead. Players today won't consume 36% of their team's possessions, at least on a championship team.
From basketball-reference.com:


"In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role."


Higher usage (which is basically just shot attempts btw) is justified as long as the ORtg is higher as well.

Jordan had higher usage (shot attempts) but he did it on a better efficiency than Lebron achieved on his lower attempts..

Bottom Line: Jordan gave his team more (usage) of a good thing (higher ORtg efficiency).
.

[hahaitme]

:cheers:

Comparing MJ's raw stats to LeBron's is like comparing Wilt's raw stats to MJ's (something you never see MJ stans do, for obvious reasons). Different eras, different games, different paces. We will never see a player average 33 FGA in the Finals on a championship team in today's era so MJ's stats have to be placed in context of his era. The closest player to this is Westbrook right now--and it is no coincidence his team is 2-5 when he scores 35+.

:applause:

A logical post. Shame it's going to get buried by "BUT JORDAN, KILLER INSTINCT. ALPHA. 30PPG" or some crap

[Hey Yo]

Funny how 3ball totally ignores posts #154 and 155.

[Roundball_Rock]

Usage in 2015

1) Westbrook 38.5% (on an 8th place team)
2) Kobe 34.8% (on a lottery team)
3) Wade 34.2% (on a 0.400 team)
4) Cousins 33.7% (on a lottery team)
5) LeBron 33.3%
6) Carmelo 32.2% (on a lottery team)
7) Rose 31.3%
8) Harden 31.0%
9) Aldrige 29.9%
10) Griffin 29.0%

As you can see, the leaders in usage are all on bad teams. How about FGA?

MJ took 2,279 shots in 1987 on a 40-42 team and 2,003 even on a championship team in 1993. Last year Durant led the league with 1,688 FGA. LeBron was 10th with 1,353 on the runner-up team. The leader in FGA for the 2014 champion had only 914. Granted, that was a unique case. How about the 2013 champs? LeBron was first on the Heat with 1,354. That ranked LeBron 7th, behind the league leader, who took 1,595 (Kobe).

Hero ball is dead. Kobe, Westbrook are the last gasps of hero ball but it is a dying breed of play.

[3ball]

We will never see a player average 33 FGA in the Finals on a championship team in today's era


We'll never see it only because MJ is not in the league, so I'm not sure what your point is.

I think you're making my point actually - only Jordan can average 33 FGA in the Finals while being good enough to do it in a way that allows him to get away with it (i.e. getting his production while not hurting teammates' production or the team's ceiling in any way).





The closest player to this is Westbrook right now minus Durant--and it is no coincidence his team is 2-5 when he scores 35+.


This season, Westbrook's his per-100 possession stats are almost as good as peak Jordan's, but he shoots a massive 10 percentage points less in FG%.

So imagine Jordan doing everything Westbrook is going right now, but shooting 10 percentage points better, playing way smarter, with superior athleticism - that's Jordan in today's game.

And people don't realize how much more athletic Jordan was than a guy like Westbrook - we have dunk stats from the 80's and 90's from old Philadelpia 76'er media guides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399), and the only 1st option wing players in history that routinely get over 100 dunks per season have been MJ, Dr. J, Wade, Lebron, Durant, Dominique and Drexler.

Guys like Kobe, Tmac, Westbrook and Paul George get literally half the number of dunks each season because they don't combine their style and hops with enough power and/or skill.. Jordan's dunks over David Robinson (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10933714&postcount=108) are a great example of how he combined big-man type power and style with guard-like quickness.

[Shih508]

Kobe's so beta, he has higher usage rate during regular season than playoff.

At the tail end of his career, his usage actually went up while having a 37 fg%.

What a cancer and fake tough guy.

[Roundball_Rock]

You are understating Jordan's numbers (Source: basketball-reference.com):


Thru 29 Years of Age - Playoffs:

Jordan: 34.7 PPG / 6.6 APG / 50.1% FG / 58.1% TS / 35.2% 3 PT
Lebron: 28.0 PPG / 6.4 APG / 48.2% FG / 57.8% TS / 33.3% 3 PT



Wilt through age 29 in the playoffs: 33/26/3 on 51% (with numerous blocks that were not counted)

KAJ through age 29 in the playoffs: 31/17/4/3 on 52%

How does MJ's 35/7 compare to 33/26 or 31/17? :eek:


We'll never see it only because MJ is not in the league, so I'm not sure what your point is.

MJ today would not be playing the same way as he did in 1987 or 1993 just as Wilt would not be. That is like saying Joe Montana would be playing the same way today. Players adapt to changes in the game.

[3ball]

Funny how 3ball totally ignores posts #154 and 155.
i don't seek out exceptions to the rules - people don't realize when you point out exceptions to the norm, you prove that the norm IS the norm.

instead, i can just point to the ACTUAL rules that dictate what the norm is:

hand-checking, various other forms of physicality, and paint-camping were banned in 2005 - FACT - that's the norm.

[3ball]

Wilt through age 29 in the playoffs: 33/26/3 on 51%

KAJ through age 29 in the playoffs: 31/17/4/3 on 52%

How does MJ's 35/7 compare to 33/26 or 31/17? :eek:


Adjust those numbers for pace and Michael Jordan blows Wilt, KAJ, and everyone else away, just like he does Lebron:


Per-100 Possession Stats Thru 29 Years of Age: PLAYOFFS:

Jordan: 43.9 PPG / 8.4 APG / 50.1% FG / 58.1% TS / 35.2% 3 PT
Lebron: 36.3 PPG / 8.4 APG / 48.2% FG / 57.8% TS / 33.3% 3 PT





MJ today would not be playing the same way as he did in 1987 or 1993 just as Wilt would not be. That is like saying Joe Montana would be playing the same way today. Players adapt to changes in the game.


Exactly - we agree on this.. Jordan WOULD play differently today.

He would get in the lane easier than ever before due to spacing and the resulting wider driving and passing lanes - it would be something he's never seen before and his eyes would light up like a christmas tree.

Then someone would tell him that the defender isn't allowed to touch him and that paint-camping has been eliminated, at which point he'd probably bust a nut.
.

[ImKobe]

Kobe's so beta, he has higher usage rate during regular season than playoff.

At the tail end of his career, his usage actually went up while having a 37 fg%.

What a cancer and fake tough guy.

mods.

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol as expected as soon as Wilt and KAJ come up suddenly we need to adjust for pace--but not for Jordan versus LeBron.

[Beastmode88]

And you are still a $hitty poster using more than 3 alternate accounts.

Why cause I bring up an actual fact about when it actually matters? While you bring up arbitrary shit like oh the youngest rookie of the year. Only thing that matter is winning a ring and how you won it. Lebron's legacy will be tainted with that collusion bs he pulled and if you support it than you're even more of a joker.

On a side note who are my other 3 alts?

[Roundball_Rock]

Only thing that matter is winning a ring and how you won it. Lebron's legacy will be tainted with that collusion bs he pulled and if you support it than you're even more of a joker.

Name one basketball legend whose achievements are diminished by the team he had around him. People simply don't care about that when assessing players' legacies. Team achievements are, rightly or wrongly, taken at face value.

I hated the Heatles formation as much as anyone in 2010 and 2011 but no one will care about it down the road. That Miami collapsed without him helps him as well. If Miami won 50-55 games without him that would have hurt LeBron and given credence to the "Miami was stacked" claims.

[Beastmode88]

Name one basketball legend whose achievements are diminished by the team he had around him. People simply don't care about that when assessing players' legacies. Team achievements are, rightly or wrongly, taken at face value.

I hated the Heatles formation as much as anyone in 2010 and 2011 but no one will care about it down the road. That Miami collapsed without him helps him as well. If Miami won 50-55 games without him that would have hurt LeBron and given credence to the "Miami was stacked" claims.

Lol are you really going to bring the 93 bulls into this... wow.

[3ball]

as expected as soon as Wilt and KAJ come up suddenly we need to adjust for pace--but not for Jordan versus LeBron.


When you adjust Wilt and KAJ's playoff numbers for pace and playing time, MJ blows them away, just like he does Lebron:


Per-100 Possession Stats Thru 29 Years of Age: PLAYOFFS:

Jordan: 43.9 PPG / 8.4 APG / 50.1% FG / 58.1% TS / 35.2% 3 PT
Lebron: 36.3 PPG / 8.4 APG / 48.2% FG / 57.8% TS / 33.3% 3 PT




We don't have Per-100 Possession stats for the Finals, but as the per game stats show, Lebron must play 1.5 Finals games to match 1 game from MJ:


Per Game Averages in Finals - Thru 29 Years Old:

Jordan: 36.3 PPG / 7.9 APG / 52.6% FG / 40.7% 3 PT
Lebron: 24.1 PPG / 6.3 APG / 46.3% FG / 30.2% 3 PT

[Roundball_Rock]

Lol are you really going to bring the 93 bulls into this... wow.

No, I am bringing preseason predictions in. If Miami was the "most stacked team of all-time" it follows that losing any one player would still leave it as a good team. Many people made that prediction, and if you truly believed Miami was stacked in 2014, it was eminently logical. My point is their collapse makes LeBron look good and undercuts the "Miami was stacked/collusion/etc." angle. Does it eliminate it? No but it certainly weakens that argument. You know full well if Miami remained competitive we would never hear the end of it. :lol


When you adjust Wilt and KAJ's playoff numbers for pace and playing time, MJ blows them away, just like he does Lebron:



Let's see the numbers and pace adjustments for all 4. How about throwing prime Bird and prime Shaq in there too?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

3ball, do you not understand that no one is saying LeBron > Jordan? What everyone, myself included, seems to object to are your constant, pathetic attempts to discredit great modern players.

Westbrook goes on a tear, cue 3ball threads talking about how Jordan > Westbrook, despite the fact that no one said Westbrook was better than Jordan. The same thing happened with LeBron, ever since Cleveland's resurgence he's been a constant target. For whatever reason you have some serious issue with people giving credit to or being in awe of any player not named 'Michael Jordan.'

Just because Westbrook is my favorite player, or I consider LeBron an all-time great caliber player (read: NOT GOAT, JUST TOP-10 LEVEL GREAT) doesn't mean I'm discrediting Jordan as the best ever. The only people who seriously argue that LeBron is the GOAT are trolls/stans/the LeBron family. I give credit to players like LeBron and Westbrook because what they're doing is amazing, I don't understand how you manage to see that as a slight against Jordan.

Insecure Jordan fans like you who feel this ridiculous need to discredit any player performing at an elite level are part of why I don't like Jordan, all you do is contribute to the mythology by shitting on every other player and their accomplishments. All you do is spit out the same argument/talking points ad nauseam whenever someone is playing well.

[3ball]

Let's see the numbers and pace adjustments for all 4. How about throwing prime Bird and prime Shaq in there too?


Nah, too much work - MJ destroys Lebron by scoring between 25% and 50% more in the playoffs and Finals WITH MORE PASSING and better efficiency.. What more could anyone ask for?.. No need to shit on everyone.. It's enough fun shitting on Lebron.

All this talk about dribble-penetration is actually pretty funny - MJ was an off-ball player and didn't rely on dribble-penetration to get in the lane anyway.. Typically, fans and media mistakenly think Jordan employed the same style as Harden, or another one of today's ball-dominant wings that hogs time of possession away from teammates.

But MJ usually scored off of catch-and-go's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10862372&postcount=18).. Spacing and a clear lane are an off-ball player's dream, since they can beat defenders to to the open paint (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10861834&postcount=13).. Also, since the spacing enhances ball movement, players who act quickly on the catch when the ball is swung (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10995238&postcount=18) will take the best advantage of a shifting, spaced-out defense.

The question becomes - would MJ use his off-ball game to take advantage of the spacing and easier ball movement, or his GOAT primary ballhandler game (http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/) to take advantage of the wider driving lanes and less physical resistance against penetration?.

It's quite possible he'd decide to rely more on his primary ballhandler game just like everyone else today, although he would probably play off-ball a lot too so he could still win at the highest level - but the fact that he has the option of falling back on his GOAT off-ball game is just one reason why he'd have a big advantage on all other wing players in today's game.
.

[Roundball_Rock]

The NBA scored 106.5 in Kareem's peak year (1977) and 106.3 in Jordan's peak year (1991). Chicago played at a 95.6 pace and L.A. at a 104.7 pace. That is a difference of 8.7%. Instead of calculating by 8.7% let's just knock KAJ down by 10%, even though scoring was the same in 77' as it was in 91'.

91' Jordan in the playoffs: 31/6/8/2/1 on 52.4%
77' Kareem in the playoffs: 35/18/4/2/4 on 60.7%
KAJ minus 10%: 32/16/4/2/4 on 60.7%

Which is better? 31/6/8 with 2 steals and 1 block or 32/16/4 with 4 blocks and 2 steals? Do Jordan's 4 extra assists make up for KAJ producing 3 more blocks and 10 more rebounds? KAJ did all this on greater efficiency.

Adjusting solely for pace is unfair to KAJ because it penalizes him but then does not penalize Jordan for being in an era where offensive efficiency was greater and for being in a higher scoring team (Chicago scored 110 a game while L.A. scored 107 a game).

[JT123]

How the hell has this obvious troll thread gone 14 pages? :oldlol:
3ball truly is the greatest. Only he could post such obvious bait and have posters actually attempting to give him serious responses.

[3ball]

Jordan blows KAJ and Wilt away when you adjust for pace - it's not close.

And shame on you for even comparing KAJ to Jordan..

KAJ was the #2 for four of his six championships, and he had FAR more help for all of them - it's not even close how much more help he had.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan blows KAJ and Wilt away when you adjust for pace - it's not close.

:biggums:

Adjusted for pace, KAJ>MJ and Wilt>MJ.

KAJ won 4 rings as the #1 option and should have 2-3 more but he did not have great luck with injuries to his teammates like some other legends did. Besides, if rings are the be all end all then Russell is the clear GOAT.