What would be more embarrassing? First round exit for GSW, or Houston?

[J Shuttlesworth]

Continued discussion from the other thread

Let's say 8th seed is OKC, and Golden State loses to them
And Houston is 4th seed, Clippers are 5th. Houston loses

This is assuming both teams are healthy

Which is a bigger upset, or are they equal footing?

[Cocaine80s]

Hawks first round exit

[Real14]

Hawks first round exit
end thread:applause:

[J Shuttlesworth]

end thread:applause:
I do like that Real is an anti-hawks dude :applause: Looking forward to rooting for Cleveland with Real14 in the ECF :cheers:

[UK2K]

As I said before the season...

Houston's floor is a first round exit.

Their ceiling is a WCF.

I'm fine with anything in between, especially considering the amount of injuries and roster turnover Houston has had all season.

Try as hard as you may, but no real Rockets fan would be embarrassed with a first round exit knowing we have a ton of cap space for the next two seasons.

We're on the up and up, first round exit or not.

[Milbuck]

Houston and it's not even remotely close.

OKC could potentially have 2 Lebron-level players on the team if Goatbrook continues his level, and KD returns to MVP form. No team in the league could match that firepower, not even Cleveland.

Clippers have no one, sorry CP and Blake, to overwhelm Houston. They're elite players but they cannot singlehandedly win a series, and MVP Harden should clearly be the best player in the series. And that Rockets cast + a healthy Dwight has no real reason to lose.

[Legends66NBA7]

Equal footing.

Wouldn't be surprised if a the bottom 4 seeds in the West beat the top 4 seeds in the West. The West is that good top to bottom.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Equal footing.

Wouldn't be surprised if a the bottom 4 seeds in the West beat the top 4 seeds in the West. The West is that good top to bottom.
I just looked at the matchups and it's definitely possible. I thought at first there's no way Memphis loses first round until I saw they'd be matched with the Spurs. Dallas are pretenders, but so are the Blazers, especially without Matthews.

another crazy possibility in the east is PG coming back and the Pacers beating the Hawks first round.

[hawksdogsbraves]

Really depends on the matchups.

I don't think GS losing to a healthy Thunder squad would necessarily be embarrassing, it would definitely sting though.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I'd say Houston.

Their fate lies with Harden, if they lose it's because he choked, which would validate the perception of him as someone who can't get it done when it matters. This all after an MVP-level season too.

Golden State losing to OKC wouldn't be a huge surprise (assuming OKC is fully healthy when the postseason rolls around). Durant and Westbrook when healthy are top-5 caliber players, them overwhelming Golden State is definitely within the realm of possibility.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I'd say Houston.

Their fate lies with Harden, if they lose it's because he choked, which would validate the perception of him as someone who can't get it done when it matters. This all after an MVP-level season too.

Golden State losing to OKC wouldn't be a huge surprise (assuming OKC is fully healthy when the postseason rolls around). Durant and Westbrook when healthy are top-5 caliber players, them overwhelming Golden State is definitely within the realm of possibility.
What if Harden plays well, but they lose?

[bigt]

What if Harden plays well, but they lose?

I think it'd validate any claim Harden has to the MVP. Compared to the other Western Conference playoff teams that Houston team isn't that impressive (given Dwight has been in and out). Harden's been keeping that team in contention

[Smook A.]

Houston and it's not even remotely close.

OKC could potentially have 2 Lebron-level players on the team if Goatbrook continues his level, and KD returns to MVP form. No team in the league could match that firepower, not even Cleveland.

Clippers have no one, sorry CP and Blake, to overwhelm Houston. They're elite players but they cannot singlehandedly win a series, and MVP Harden should clearly be the best player in the series. And that Rockets cast + a healthy Dwight has no real reason to lose.
You really overuse the "it's not even remotely close" phrase. Just throw it out there like it's nothing.

First of all, yeah OKC does have 2 great players in Westbrook and Durant. The guys around them are also very solid players, which translates them being a very good team. The Warriors on the other hand are the 1st seed for a reason. The conference that they are playing in is historically one of the toughest EVER. Curry and Klay are both stars. The team is #1 in offense AND defense. Bogut is one of the best defensive centers. Green can do a little bit of everything and could potentially win the DPOY. Iggy is another great defender. Lee is an offensive weapon... the list goes on. The Warriors are stacked from top to bottom.

So tell me, why is Houston losing to Clippers worse than Warriors losing to the OKC Thunder? You're underrating the Warriors here. You really are.

[LoneyROY7]

:roll:

You f*cking with me cuz? Clippers would be favored in that match-up. Catch up.

[christian1923]

No shame in losing to OKC. They have the best roster in the west

[J Shuttlesworth]

:roll:

You f*cking with me cuz? Clippers would be favored in that match-up. Catch up.
I think it's a fairly even match, but I could see the Clippers taking it, no doubt.

[Milbuck]

You really overuse the "it's not even remotely close" phrase. Just throw it out there like it's nothing.

First of all, yeah OKC does have 2 great players in Westbrook and Durant. The guys around them are also very solid players, which translates them being a very good team. The Warriors on the other hand are the 1st seed for a reason. The conference that they are playing in is historically one of the toughest EVER. Curry and Klay are both stars. The team is #1 in offense AND defense. Bogut is one of the best defensive centers. Green can do a little bit of everything and could potentially win the DPOY. Iggy is another great defender. Lee is an offensive weapon... the list goes on. The Warriors are stacked from top to bottom.

So tell me, why is Houston losing to Clippers worse than Warriors losing to the OKC Thunder? You're underrating the Warriors here. You really are.
I'm not underrated the Warriors at all. They're without question a top 2 team right now, arguably the best.

But you cannot tell me with a straight face that on an individual basis they can match KD and Westbrook. As phenomenal a team as GS is, if Goatbrook plays like has in recent weeks, and KD plays like he did when he locked his MVP case w/ Westbrook out last winter, it's game over. You cannot stop that duo.

The Clippers have no one on their roster who can singlehandedly take over a series by themselves. CP3 could do it years ago, but he's not at that level, even if he's balling out right now. Blake can dominate but he's not winning a series by himself. Durant and Westbrook in any given series can win it by themselves, because they are that surreal. They can overwhelm teams purely on talent. No other team except probably Cleveland can do that.

If James Harden truly is the MVP and a top 3 player, he should be able to rise above the Clippers.

[YouGotServed]

Warriors by far. They're stacked and losing to an 8th seed is always embarrassing. Houston shouldn't even be in the playoffs considering the amount of injuries they've had. Only reason they're still contenders is because of King James the MVP.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

What if Harden plays well, but they lose?

If Harden plays at the level he's been at this season I don't see how it's possible for them to lose to the Clippers.

Now, if he plays well and they somehow do lose then it's still embarrassing, just more for the team than just him. Again, if he plays the way he's played this season I don't see how they lose to the Clippers.

[bigt]

Warriors by far. They're stacked and losing to an 8th seed is always embarrassing. Houston shouldn't even be in the playoffs considering the amount of injuries they've had. Only reason they're still contenders is because of King James the MVP.

It's not that embarrassing when the 8th seed would have been top 2 if they were healthy all year. Only reason it'd be embarrassing for Golden State is if either Durant or Westbrook were out for the series, but that team has the most potent one two punch in the league

[IncarceratedBob]

Warriors. They're an actual contender and a first round loss even to OKC would be brutal. If Rockets lose in the first round no one would bat an eye, it's almost expected at this point.

[J Shuttlesworth]

If Harden plays at the level he's been at this season I don't see how it's possible for them to lose to the Clippers.

Now, if he plays well and they somehow do lose then it's still embarrassing, just more for the team than just him. Again, if he plays the way he's played this season I don't see how they lose to the Clippers.
So far the Clippers are 2-1 against the Rockets, one win being without BG

[24-Inch_Chrome]

So far the Clippers are 2-1 against the Rockets, one win being without BG

Shit, really? Wow, that surprises me. How did Harden play in the series?

[Young X]

Nobody gave Dallas passes when they lost in the 1st round to a terrible matchup years ago.

A team like Houston losing to a team like LAC/Portland/Dallas happens every year. The #1 seed with HCA, the possible MVP and a historically great record losing in the 1st round is easily more embarrassing.

[EricGordon23]

Gstate people keep saying If westbrook continues to play like this when durant comes back.... Why the Fcuk would westbrook still get 35 shots a game if Durant is there.

[Genaro]

I don't think it's embarrassing to lose to anybody in the West. All teams are good and there's so much parity that there's no shame in losing to one of them.

That being said GSW is the first seed and we always expect the 1st to advance and contend.
Rockets case is different. I don't think anyone thinks they will win it all but Harden needs to have a great playoff run to shut up his critics. If he plays bad again he'll be trashed the whole summer.

[YouGotServed]

It's not that embarrassing when the 8th seed would have been top 2 if they were healthy all year. Only reason it'd be embarrassing for Golden State is if either Durant or Westbrook were out for the series, but that team has the most potent one two punch in the league

Losing to an eight seed is always embarrassing, period. Doesn't matter if OKC is healthy. I expect the team with 65 regular season Ws and a top 5 player in Curry to beat any other team in the 1st round. There is no way to spin it.

It's championship or bust for GSW. Losing in the 1st round will be the ultimate humiliation.

Houston on the contrary, even though they have the best player in the league can still be beaten in a 7 game series. Losing to a 5th seed isn't as bad as losing to an 8th seed. Pretty simple logic to follow. Not sure why this is even a question tbh.

[Milbuck]

So far the Clippers are 2-1 against the Rockets, one win being without BG
Shit, really? Wow, that surprises me. How did Harden play in the series?
Harden in those 3 meetings:

16/4/6 on 42% FG, 5 turnovers....L
9/5/6 on 25% FG, 5 turnovers....L
21/4/10 on 31% FG, 3 turnovers....W

If "MVP" James Harden showed up, that's 3-0 for Houston.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Shit, really? Wow, that surprises me. How did Harden play in the series?
Poorly. Averaging under 40% FG against the clippers. Even the game the Rockets won (no griffin/howard) he was 4/13

[J Shuttlesworth]

H
If "MVP" James Harden showed up, that's 3-0 for Houston.
So you're saying that the Rockets winning is entirely dependent on Harden playing well? Doesn't sound like a championship expectation team to me :coleman:

[Milbuck]

So you're saying that the Rockets winning is entirely dependent on Harden playing well? Doesn't sound like a championship expectation team to me :coleman:
No, it's dependent on him not playing like post-chipotle asshole.

Dude puts up 9 points on 25% shooting in a loss and you're gonna defend him? :oldlol:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Poorly. Averaging under 40% FG against the clippers. Even the game the Rockets won (no griffin/howard) he was 4/13

So it still seems like it'll be dependent on Harden. If they play the Clippers in the first round it might be a shot at redemption for him too considering his performance in those meetings. If he plays at an MVP-level, Houston wins handily, if he plays the way he has this season against the Clippers, Houston loses and he should be embarrassed.

Who has he been matched up with against in those 3 games? I'm curious as to whether or not he's gone up against a good defender or if he's just played like shit of his own accord.

[J Shuttlesworth]

So it still seems like it'll be dependent on Harden. If they play the Clippers in the first round it might be a shot at redemption for him too considering his performance in those meetings. If he plays at an MVP-level, Houston wins handily, if he plays the way he has this season against the Clippers, Houston loses and he should be embarrassed.

Who has he been matched up with against in those 3 games? I'm curious as to whether or not he's gone up against a good defender or if he's just played like shit of his own accord.
I think it's mostly Barnes covering him

[J Shuttlesworth]

No, it's dependent on him not playing like post-chipotle asshole.

Dude puts up 9 points on 25% shooting in a loss and you're gonna defend him? :oldlol:
Not defending him. If he plays like that in the playoffs, he's an absolute choker, no doubt about it.

But lets not act like he had significant help those games outside of the win. I don't see how this is a championship expectation team at all.

[warriorfan]

Houston will be happy if they make the playoffs. Harden sucks.

[Milbuck]

Not defending him. If he plays like that in the playoffs, he's an absolute choker, no doubt about it.

But lets not act like he had significant help those games outside of the win. I don't see how this is a championship expectation team at all.
MVP Harden, all-star Dwight, and the role players that Houston has = contenders.

The scrubs he was "carrying"...without Dwight...went toe to toe with a top 2 team in Atlanta without him, who just thoroughly beat a dominant Cleveland team with Lebron, Kyrie, and Love.

You guys just refuse to admit that top-heavy star talent is not the only type of talent out there. Defense, shooting, toughness, and chemistry matters. And the Houston supporting cast has that. Throw in Dwight has a worthy #2 all-star, and an MVP, and you have a contending team.

[J Shuttlesworth]

MVP Harden, all-star Dwight, and the role players that Houston has = contenders.

The scrubs he was "carrying"...without Dwight...went toe to toe with a top 2 team in Atlanta without him, who just thoroughly beat a dominant Cleveland team with Lebron, Kyrie, and Love.

You guys just refuse to admit that top-heavy star talent is not the only type of talent out there. Defense, shooting, toughness, and chemistry matters. And the Houston supporting cast has that. Throw in Dwight has a worthy #2 all-star, and an MVP, and you have a contending team.
Dwight is not an all star this year. If we want to talk about defense/toughness Golden State is a better defense and offense.

Houston is 9th in DRTG, 12th ORTG
Golden State is 1st/2nd
Memphis 11th/6th
Hawks 6th/5th
Portland 10th/3rd

Just stop it. Houston has no business beating any of these teams. They don't get 30/1 odds for no reason

The Hawks lost to the Lakers, as did Golden State. you can't use a single game to identify a whole season

[hawksdogsbraves]

If Houston is fully healthy there's no reason why they shouldn't be contending for a championship.

Two superstars, very good depth, I don't know what more they would need...

[J Shuttlesworth]

If Houston is fully healthy there's no reason why they shouldn't be contending for a championship.

Two superstars, very good depth, I don't know what more they would need...
Dwight isn't the same as his former all star self.

And you really think healthy Houston stands a chance against Golden State, healthy OKC, or the Hawks? No data really backs this up.

[Milbuck]

Dwight is not an all star this year. If we want to talk about defense/toughness Golden State is a better defense and offense.

Houston is 9th in DRTG, 12th ORTG
Golden State is 1st/2nd
Memphis 11th/6th
Hawks 6th/5th
Portland 10th/3rd

Just stop it. Houston has no business beating any of these teams. They don't get 30/1 odds for no reason

The Hawks lost to the Lakers, as did Golden State. you can't use a single game to identify a whole season
He hasn't been healthy. Houston playing the way they are, with a healthy Dwight for the playoffs? They're contenders. They probably won't win, but their expectations should be higher than a freaking 2nd round exit :oldlol:

Only GS and Atlanta are dominant teams in your list, Portland is no better than Houston with healthy Dwight, nor is Memphis. Talent can win series, and MVP Harden with the cast he has can rise above all of those teams if he plays at that level.

I'm sorry, but with the MVP comes expectations. There's always gonna be better teams out there. But when you're a bonafide top 4-5 player and MVP, you need to sometimes break through adversity.

There is no reason why Houston can't give GS or Atlanta all they can handle in a series. Whether they win or not, they should be able to hang with them.

[Milbuck]

If Houston is fully healthy there's no reason why they shouldn't be contending for a championship.

Two superstars, very good depth, I don't know what more they would need...
Exactly. People will just never let go of this nonsense narrative that Harden is carrying scrubs.

[J Shuttlesworth]

He hasn't been healthy. Houston playing the way they are, with a healthy Dwight for the playoffs? They're contenders. They probably won't win, but their expectations should be higher than a freaking 2nd round exit :oldlol:

Only GS and Atlanta are dominant teams in your list, Portland is no better than Houston with healthy Dwight, nor is Memphis. Talent can win series, and MVP Harden with the cast he has can rise above all of those teams if he plays at that level.

I'm sorry, but with the MVP comes expectations. There's always gonna be better teams out there. But when you're a bonafide top 4-5 player and MVP, you need to sometimes break through adversity.

There is no reason why Houston can't give GS or Atlanta all they can handle in a series. Whether they win or not, they should be able to hang with them.
So which team in the 2nd round do you think they would beat? you can have your opinion on it, and I can disagree with you.

BTW, this year Dwight when healthy has been a 16/11 player. they're not beating Golden State, and they're not being Memphis. They're not beating a healthy OKC. Obviously you have higher expectations of Houston than I do. Which of those teams do you see them beating in the 2nd round? Just curious.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Exactly. People will just never let go of this nonsense narrative that Harden is carrying scrubs.
I wouldn't call them scrubs, but I wouldn't call them contenders either due to how stacked the West is. If they were in the East, they'd only have excuses to lose to Cleveland or Atlanta

[G0ATbe]

I'd say 2*/6.

[Milbuck]

So which team in the 2nd round do you think they would beat? you can have your opinion on it, and I can disagree with you.

BTW, this year Dwight when healthy has been a 16/11 player. they're not beating Golden State, and they're not being Memphis. They're not beating a healthy OKC. Obviously you have higher expectations of Houston than I do. Which of those teams do you see them beating in the 2nd round? Just curious.
I'm not definitively saying they beat anyone. I'm saying it's not like there's some massive talent gap like you're suggesting, like it's Harden carrying a weak cast against a conference full of giants, and that they'd be overwhelmed and it'd require some Herculean effort from Harden to win. It's just not the case. We just saw the stats, Harden put up 21/10 on 31% shooting and they win, he puts up 9 points on 25% FG and they lose. It's really not that high a demand, he just has to play like the MVP and they can hang with anyone. It's that simple.

And Dwight hasn't been himself even when he was playing...that's what the procedure was for. If he comes back healthy, he's as good a #2 as any MVP could want.

Obviously if he comes back as the same player before the procedure, if the procedure did absolutely nothing to help him, yeah..Houston loses. But I'm arguing under the assumption that Dwight Howard for the most part comes back as the true Dwight Howard.