Efficiency of today's perimeter players versus 80's/90's players

[Roundball_Rock]

Given all the constant talk about which era it was easier to score it would be helpful to have the data on the efficiency of players from respective eras. This is not dispositive, there are a myriad of factors that could affect these results, but as a general proposition one would assume if a particular era is/was far easier to score in that would be reflected in substantially superior efficiency in that era.

To limit the distortive effect of the old age of the players from previous eras I will also list their efficiency when they played on the team they are most associated with, if a player played on multiple teams. I also excluded three pointers because they were not as common in the 80's and 90's as they are today, which influences negatively the raw FG % of today's players. By focusing on two pointers we can have an apples to apples comparison. Finally, this obviously will not include every perimeter player nor will it include scrubs or average players, partly because selecting some scrubs or average players for sampling purposes inevitably would inject subjectivity into this. With top players it is easier to do because there is a general consensus on who the top players were in each era. By getting a sample of the best perimeter players from each period we can get a good general idea of efficiency of perimeter players.

Two point efficiency of selected players

Jordan 51.0% (52.0% as a Bull)
Drexler 49.8% (both as a Blazer and as a Rocket)
Wilkins 47.8% (48.1% as a Hawk)
Bird 50.9%
King 52.1% (54.6% as a Knick)
Magic 54.1%
Pippen 50.7% (51.2% as a Bull)
Stockton 54.1%
K. Johnson 50.4% (50.5% as a Sun)
Mullin 53.3% (53.5% as a Warrior)
T. Hardaway 46.9% (48.8% as a Warrior, when he was 23-29 years old)
Miller 51.6%
Payton 50.1% (50.2% as a Supersonic)
Rice 47.6% (47.8% as a Hornet)
Price 50.1% (50.5% as a Cavalier)
Worthy 53.2%
Thomas 46.8%
English 50.8%
Moncrief 51.3%
Erving 51.0% (NBA only)
Dantley 54.1% (56.3% as a Jazz)
Gervin 51.4% (NBA only)

LeBron 53.6%
Kobe 48.1%
T Mac 46.1% (46.9% with Orlando)
Iverson 44.8% (44.4% as a Sixer)
Carter 46.3% (46.0% as a Raptor)
Allen 48.5% (47.6% as a Supersonic)
Kidd 42.9% (42.8% as a Net)
Nash 51.8% (53.5% as a Sun)
Pierce 47.8% (47.7% as a Celtic)
Marbury 46.5% (too many teams!)
Redd 47.5%
Arenas 45.8% (45.7% as a Wizard)
Billups 43.5% (43.9% as a Piston)
Paul 50.3%
D. Williams 48.6%
Ginobli 50.1%
Parker 51.3%
J. Johnson 47.2% (48.2% as a Hawk)
Rose 48.3% (48.1% in 11')
Westbrook 45.5%
Wade 51.2%
Harden 49.7%
Curry 49.3%
Thompson 45.9%
Lillard 47.0%
George 46.9%
Durant 51.2%

It turns out it was easier for 80's/90's players to score than 2000's/2010's players.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Most of these guys you plucked from the 80s and 90s were midrange demons. Like..they practiced taking long range 2's rather than 3's, emphasis on 3's as they're naturally a lower percentage shot (worth the extra point reward).

Not all, but many players today lack the in-between game. The differences in play between both eras is pretty noticeable.

[Roundball_Rock]

They also were getting to the rim more too and getting easy dunks and layups. So despite the supposed "tough" defenses and all the talk about mighty hand-checking the bottom line is they were putting the ball through the hoop at a much higher rate then players of the 2000-2015 period.

[3ball]

In the 80's and 90's, teams shot a MUCH higher proportion of two-pointers, so it's not a surprise that players from that era were much better them.

In 1985, 96.5% of all shot attempts were 2-pointers, compared to only 73% today - naturally, players from 1985 were a lot better at those shots than today's players.

Otoh, in today's era, it's all about 3-pointers.. So today's players are better at that.

If you look at all those names you listed Roundball, the previous era players have a blend of skill that leans towards power over finesse, whereas for today's players it's the other way around.. This is a direct result of the much higher proportion of 3-pointers taken in today's game and resulting spacing - finesse over power is required to take the most advantage of the spacing, while power over finesse is required to overcome the lack of spacing.

[TheMan]

Most of these guys you plucked from the 80s and 90s were midrange demons. Like..they practiced taking long range 2's rather than 3's, emphasis on 3's as they're naturally a lower percentage shot (worth the extra point reward).

Not all, but many players today lack the in-between game. The differences in play between both eras is pretty noticeable.
Pretty much...

Rules have been changed to help offensive players yet these guys believe it's way harder to score in today's game :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Good points on the proficiency of and greater focus on the mid-range game since three's were a non-factor in the 80's and a small factor in the 90's. What do you guys think the data would look for perimeter players the 70's and 60's? If the 1985-1995 period is the GOAT defensive period, as alleged, would it not follow that players in the 70's and 60's would have shot worse than those in that alleged golden age of defensive efficiency?



Rules have been changed to help offensive players yet these guys believe it's way harder to score in today's game

Why do you guys always leave the other part of that story out? :oldlol:

[TheMan]

They also were getting to the rim more too and getting easy dunks and layups. So despite the supposed "tough" defenses and all the talk about mighty hand-checking the bottom line is they were putting the ball through the hoop at a much higher rate then players of the 2000-2015 period.
Maybe they were just generally better offensive players :confusedshrug:

You gotta be a moron to think that it was easier to score if a defensive player can ride you with his forearm and there was a big sitting there in the paint waiting to challenge your shot.

There are quotes by NBA executives saying they made rules changes to favor the offense after NBA games were becoming 87-84 slugfests...


Like I said, you gotta be a really dense to think it's harder to score today than back then. And I'm talking about 90s basketball in general since I was too young in most of the 80s to be a knowledgeable fan

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is the data for a few all-NBA players from the 70's:

Gervin 51.4% (NBA only)
Johnson 52.1% (played mostly in the 80's, though)
Westphal 50.8% (52.0% as a Sun)
Dandridge 48.4% (48.7% as a Buck)
W. Davis 52.1% (52.8% as a Sun, played mostly in the 80's)
Thompson 50.6% (NBA only)
Maravich 44.1% (43.4% with the Jazz)
Erving 51.0% (NBA only)
White 44.4% (44.2% as a Celtic)
Barry 45.0% (NBA only)
Archibald 46.9%
Havlicek 43.9%
Frazier 49.0% (49.2% as a Knick)
Goodrich 45.6% (46.0% as a Laker)
West 47.4% (played mostly in the 60's)
Oscar 48.5% (48.9% as a Royal, played mostly in the 60's)

So once again it is the early 80's through early 90's period that featured unusually high efficiency. Why?

[Marchesk]

Does that mean the 50s was the best defensive era?

[Roundball_Rock]

There are quotes by NBA executives saying they made rules changes to favor the offense after NBA games were becoming 87-84 slugfests...

Exactly. The rule changes were made to aid offensive players after scoring had plummeted to the lowest levels since the 50's. Even with the changes scoring, which rose, is substantially lower than it was in the 60's, 70's, 80's, and the first half of the 90's. What some like to claim is that scoring today is unusually easier when in fact it is lower than any other era of the NBA, unless you count 1998-2004 as an era. What makes it even more interesting is this crowd usually cites the 1985-1995 period as the GOAT defensive era. That was the GOAT offensive efficiency era.

[3ball]

they were putting the ball through the hoop at a much higher rate then players of the 2000-2015 period.


You are forgetting that previous eras played at a faster pace, which means higher scoring per game - and the faster pace was because teams ran less offense in previous eras.. The only reason teams run offense in the first place is to get OPEN SHOTS - two-pointers don't need to be as open as 3-pointers, so they requires less offense to be ran.. The two-pointer basketball of previous eras simply plays faster.

It's intuitive - the further a shot is from the basket, the more it's FG% goes down when contested.. Many mid-range and paint shots are taken with a defender draped all over - this is standard for 2-pointers, but not 3-pointers.. 3-pointers need to be more open than 2-pointers and therefore require more offense to be ran, which slows the game down.. Indeed, throughout history, pace has steadily declined with the increase of 3-point shooting.

While 3-pointers provide the much-coveted spacing, this spacing takes time to set up by having to run offense every possession, which slows the game compared to previous eras.. In previous eras, the norm was for players to settle for a wide variety of quick and contested two-pointers, which is exactly what TODAY'S game would turn return to if the 3-point line were suddenly removed - pace would increase sharply right away.

[dubeta]

Damn, so Jordan was only about average in terms if efficiency in the 80's/90's?

LeBron shot 57% when others were shooting 45%, while Jordan shoots the same as other perimeter players :roll:


Jordan was an average scorer in his era

[Smoke117]

Kobrick has only ever shot 50% or over on 2 point shots ONCE in his entire career for a season. Pathetic.

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball, pace was higher still in the 70's and 60's; efficiency wasn't. The golden era for offensive efficiency is the early 80's through the early 90's. Yet this was the "toughest defensive era ever" because of thugs delivering flagrant fouls? :lol

[dubeta]

Kobrick has only ever shot 50% or over on 2 point shots ONCE in his entire career for a season. Pathetic.

:roll:

[Poetry]

Jordan was an average scorer in his era

LeBron is a below average winner.

[TheMan]

Damn, so Jordan was only about average in terms if efficiency in the 80's/90's?

LeBron shot 57% when others were shooting 45%, while Jordan shoots the same as other perimeter players :roll:


Jordan was an average scorer in his era:biggums:
Yet this average scorer per his era won 10 scoring titles while winning 5 MVPs, a DPOY, 6 titles and 6 FMVPs :bowdown:

How many scoring titles does LBJ, the GOAT scorer (according to you) of his era have?

[3ball]

Yet this was the "toughest defensive era ever" because of thugs delivering flagrant fouls? :lol


Not exactly - it's common knowledge that today's player benefits from wider driving and passing lanes due to spacing.. Also, it's well-documented (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) that the NBA instituted major rule changes in 2005 designed to make penetration easier (this is the NBA's interpretation, not mine), which included a ban on hand-checking and various physicality..

These rule changes spearheaded a golden age of dribble-penetration, where there are more dribble-penetrators than ever before, and where teams use dribble-penetration to initiate offense more than ever before.. All that's needed is a high screen or an isolation play to take advantage of the hand-check ban and get in the lane.. Players like Harden, Lebron, and Kobe, as well as all point guards benefit from these plays.. Previous era players would be no different.

The 2005 rule changes also included the elimination of paint-camping with a new defensive 3 seconds rule (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) that forced defenders inside the paint to stay within "armslength" of their man at all times (cling to their man), or vacate the paint.. This is the exact definition of man-to-man defense (and a strict version of man-to-man at that) - so while today's NBA allows zone defenses, they aren't allowed in the most important area of the floor - the paint.. In the paint, defenses must play a strict brand of man-to-man.

Otoh, defenses in previous eras could hand-check and be physical.. Also, there was no spacing, so driving and passing lanes were smaller and defenders could help from closer distances.. Furthermore, defenders in the paint didn't have any "armslength" restriction and could legally paint-camp.. It's ironic.. While today's game forces defenders to play very strict man-to-man inside the painted area (stay within armslength), previous eras could actually play zone in the paint, or legally paint-camp, which is the same thing.

All coaches in previous eras foolishly ran offenses that didn't shoot threes and positioned players close to the rim, which activated legal-paint camping, as stipulated in Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines - this rule allowed defenders to paint-camp with no time restriction if their man was in the paint already, or within 3 feet of either side.

The legal paint-camping, hand-checking, higher physicality, and no-spacing made it harder to score in the paint in previous eras.. The GOAT versatility of MJ's scoring repertoire (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11021030&postcount=6) would have a field day in today's spaced out, non-physical game.
.

[dunksby]

Given all the constant talk about which era it was easier to score it would be helpful to have the data on the efficiency of players from respective eras. This is not dispositive, there are a myriad of factors that could affect these results, but as a general proposition one would assume if a particular era is/was far easier to score in that would be reflected in substantially superior efficiency in that era.

To limit the distortive effect of the old age of the players from previous eras I will also list their efficiency when they played on the team they are most associated with, if a player played on multiple teams. I also excluded three pointers because they were not as common in the 80's and 90's as they are today, which influences negatively the raw FG % of today's players. By focusing on two pointers we can have an apples to apples comparison. Finally, this obviously will not include every perimeter player nor will it include scrubs or average players, partly because selecting some scrubs or average players for sampling purposes inevitably would inject subjectivity into this. With top players it is easier to do because there is a general consensus on who the top players were in each era. By getting a sample of the best perimeter players from each period we can get a good general idea of efficiency of perimeter players.

Two point efficiency of selected players

Jordan 51.0% (52.0% as a Bull)
Drexler 49.8% (both as a Blazer and as a Rocket)
Wilkins 47.8% (48.1% as a Hawk)
Bird 50.9%
King 52.1% (54.6% as a Knick)
Magic 54.1%
Pippen 50.7% (51.2% as a Bull)
Stockton 54.1%
K. Johnson 50.4% (50.5% as a Sun)
Mullin 53.3% (53.5% as a Warrior)
T. Hardaway 46.9% (48.8% as a Warrior, when he was 23-29 years old)
Miller 51.6%
Payton 50.1% (50.2% as a Supersonic)
Rice 47.6% (47.8% as a Hornet)
Price 50.1% (50.5% as a Cavalier)
Worthy 53.2%
Thomas 46.8%
English 50.8%
Moncrief 51.3%
Erving 51.0% (NBA only)
Dantley 54.1% (56.3% as a Jazz)
Gervin 51.4% (NBA only)

LeBron 53.6%
Kobe 48.1%
T Mac 46.1% (46.9% with Orlando)
Iverson 44.8% (44.4% as a Sixer)
Carter 46.3% (46.0% as a Raptor)
Allen 48.5% (47.6% as a Supersonic)
Kidd 42.9% (42.8% as a Net)
Nash 51.8% (53.5% as a Sun)
Pierce 47.8% (47.7% as a Celtic)
Marbury 46.5% (too many teams!)
Redd 47.5%
Arenas 45.8% (45.7% as a Wizard)
Billups 43.5% (43.9% as a Piston)
Paul 50.3%
D. Williams 48.6%
Ginobli 50.1%
Parker 51.3%
J. Johnson 47.2% (48.2% as a Hawk)
Rose 48.3% (48.1% in 11')
Westbrook 45.5%
Wade 51.2%
Harden 49.7%
Curry 49.3%
Thompson 45.9%
Lillard 47.0%
George 46.9%

It turns out it was easier for 80's/90's players to score than 2000's/2010's players.
Durant 53% as a Thunder.

[Roundball_Rock]

Durant 53% as a Thunder.

I can't believe I forgot him. :lol I will edit the OP to include him.

[3ball]

You guys are watching the games right?

All teams today initiate possessions with some sort of dribble-penetration towards the basket - it's simply the most readily available option and the easiest way to initiate offense in today's game.

Most of the time, the penetrator literally just waltzes into a massive spacing-enhanced driving lane untouched after a high screen roll or isolation play of some kind.. It is standard for even stiffs like Ramon Sessions and Patty Mills to initiate every offensive possession with a standard dribble penetration in into the lane.

It's a fact that dribble-penetration occurs much more today than any time in history.. It's also a well-documented fact that this was the NBA's exact intention... So the notion that wings from previous eras would play worse in today's game is ludicrous because we know they would be getting in the lane easier today than any other era.

[3ball]

Most of these guys you plucked from the 80s and 90s were midrange demons. Like..they practiced taking long range 2's rather than 3's, emphasis on 3's as they're naturally a lower percentage shot (worth the extra point reward).

Not all, but many players today lack the in-between game. The differences in play between both eras is pretty noticeable.
exactly - with previous eras taking almost 50% more two-pointers per game, it's no surprise they were better at those shots and their 2-point efficiency was better.

otoh, today's game takes literally 4 and 5 times as many 3-pointers.. so it's not surprising today's 3-point efficiency is better.

[Roundball_Rock]

exactly - with previous eras taking almost 50% more two-pointers per game, it's no surprise they were better at those shots and their 2-point efficiency was better.

otoh, today's game takes literally 4 and 5 times as many 3-pointers.. so it's not surprising today's 3-point efficiency is better.

Except that they were not as efficient on 2's in the 70's or 60's when there was no three point line. Only in the 80's and early 90's was there a spike in offensive rating and FG %.

[warriorfan]

Given all the constant talk about which era it was easier to score it would be helpful to have the data on the efficiency of players from respective eras. This is not dispositive, there are a myriad of factors that could affect these results, but as a general proposition one would assume if a particular era is/was far easier to score in that would be reflected in substantially superior efficiency in that era.

To limit the distortive effect of the old age of the players from previous eras I will also list their efficiency when they played on the team they are most associated with, if a player played on multiple teams. I also excluded three pointers because they were not as common in the 80's and 90's as they are today, which influences negatively the raw FG % of today's players. By focusing on two pointers we can have an apples to apples comparison. Finally, this obviously will not include every perimeter player nor will it include scrubs or average players, partly because selecting some scrubs or average players for sampling purposes inevitably would inject subjectivity into this. With top players it is easier to do because there is a general consensus on who the top players were in each era. By getting a sample of the best perimeter players from each period we can get a good general idea of efficiency of perimeter players.

Two point efficiency of selected players

Jordan 51.0% (52.0% as a Bull)
Drexler 49.8% (both as a Blazer and as a Rocket)
Wilkins 47.8% (48.1% as a Hawk)
Bird 50.9%
King 52.1% (54.6% as a Knick)
Magic 54.1%
Pippen 50.7% (51.2% as a Bull)
Stockton 54.1%
K. Johnson 50.4% (50.5% as a Sun)
Mullin 53.3% (53.5% as a Warrior)
T. Hardaway 46.9% (48.8% as a Warrior, when he was 23-29 years old)
Miller 51.6%
Payton 50.1% (50.2% as a Supersonic)
Rice 47.6% (47.8% as a Hornet)
Price 50.1% (50.5% as a Cavalier)
Worthy 53.2%
Thomas 46.8%
English 50.8%
Moncrief 51.3%
Erving 51.0% (NBA only)
Dantley 54.1% (56.3% as a Jazz)
Gervin 51.4% (NBA only)

LeBron 53.6%
Kobe 48.1%
T Mac 46.1% (46.9% with Orlando)
Iverson 44.8% (44.4% as a Sixer)
Carter 46.3% (46.0% as a Raptor)
Allen 48.5% (47.6% as a Supersonic)
Kidd 42.9% (42.8% as a Net)
Nash 51.8% (53.5% as a Sun)
Pierce 47.8% (47.7% as a Celtic)
Marbury 46.5% (too many teams!)
Redd 47.5%
Arenas 45.8% (45.7% as a Wizard)
Billups 43.5% (43.9% as a Piston)
Paul 50.3%
D. Williams 48.6%
Ginobli 50.1%
Parker 51.3%
J. Johnson 47.2% (48.2% as a Hawk)
Rose 48.3% (48.1% in 11')
Westbrook 45.5%
Wade 51.2%
Harden 49.7%
Curry 49.3%
Thompson 45.9%
Lillard 47.0%
George 46.9%
Durant 51.2%

It turns out it was easier for 80's/90's players to score than 2000's/2010's players.

No, it's more like those 80's/90's players were flat out better players than the 2000'/2010's and were able to score on higher percentages despite having harder rules.



Way to ether yourself broseph

:yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy:

[3ball]

Except that they were not as efficient on 2's in the 70's or 60's when there was no three point line. Only in the 80's and early 90's was there a spike in offensive rating and FG %.
there was unlimited paint-camping in the 60's and 70's.

the NBA restricted some paint-camping in the early 80's, which lasted up until 2005, when they completely eliminated all paint-camping.

[Roundball_Rock]

No, it's more like those 80's/90's players were flat out better players than the 2000'/2010's and were able to score on higher percentages despite having harder rules.

So your argument is that somehow the players of the 80's and early 90's magically were a cut above the players of the 60's, 70's, 2000's, and 2010's? That is players, during a 10-15 year window>>>players over another 35-40 years, both before and after that period? If so, why? Was it something in the water when these players were being born in the 60's? Efficiency skyrocketed for a brief period and has never before or after been anywhere close to what it achieved during that period.

[OldSchoolBBall]

How abysmal would Pippen's efficiency be in the postseason in today's ultra-tough zone defensive era when he was shooting 39-41% for entire postseasons at age 30-32, and only 44-47% at ages 26-29. He would be lucky to score 16 ppg on 40% shooting in the postseason today.

[Dasher]

Except that they were not as efficient on 2's in the 70's or 60's when there was no three point line. Only in the 80's and early 90's was there a spike in offensive rating and FG %.
The addition of the 3 point line wasn't the only huge rule change around that time. The addition of the extra ref after the Kermit Washington punch on Rudy T also opened up the game a great deal. The mugging of offensive players was tamped down for awhile until Pat Riley and others started pushing the limits of physicality in the 90s and early 2000s.

[andgar923]

RR doesn't watch basketball (at least didn't watch it in the 80s and 90s). This thread is just another example of that.

The kid looks up stats and highlights.

[iamgine]

FG% only soared after the merge between ABA and NBA in '76-'77 season.

Something happened around there.

[andgar923]

FG% only soared after the merge between ABA and NBA in '76-'77 season.

Something happened around there.

I think the ABA had the 3pt shot.

Also, played a looser fast and gun game.

[ShawkFactory]

In the 80's and 90's, teams shot a MUCH higher proportion of two-pointers, so it's not a surprise that players from that era were much better them.

In 1985, 96.5% of all shot attempts were 2-pointers, compared to only 73% today - naturally, players from 1985 were a lot better at those shots than today's players.

Otoh, in today's era, it's all about 3-pointers.. So today's players are better at that.

If you look at all those names you listed Roundball, the previous era players have a blend of skill that leans towards power over finesse, whereas for today's players it's the other way around.. This is a direct result of the much higher proportion of 3-pointers taken in today's game and resulting spacing - finesse over power is required to take the most advantage of the spacing, while power over finesse is required to overcome the lack of spacing.
Yet you don't think Lebron would dominate?

[andgar923]

Yet you don't think Lebron would dominate?
Bron isn't a low post power player tho.

He's mostly a finesse player in the post.

He also wouldn't be able to barrel his way into the lane from the perimeter like he does today (when he actually applies his size). Bron would be even more of a jump shooter in the 80s and 90s than he is today.

[ShawkFactory]

Bron isn't a low post power player tho.

He's mostly a finesse player in the post.

He also wouldn't be able to barrel his way into the lane from the perimeter like he does today (when he actually applies his size). Bron would be even more of a jump shooter in the 80s and 90s than he is today.
What if he grew up in the era with less spacing? He has the body to dominate with power, and the talent to develop the skillset necessary to dominate given the nature of the game.

[Im Still Ballin]

Bron isn't a low post power player tho.

He's mostly a finesse player in the post.

He also wouldn't be able to barrel his way into the lane from the perimeter like he does today (when he actually applies his size). Bron would be even more of a jump shooter in the 80s and 90s than he is today.
:facepalm

There's so many things wrong with this.

[andgar923]

What if he grew up in the era with less spacing? He has the body to dominate with power, and the talent to develop the skillset necessary to dominate given the nature of the game.

Lot's of 'what if's' tho.

But we do know one thing for sure, he doesn't have the mentality to be a tough player. He'd get knocked around in the 80s and 90s, we've seen him shy away from today's softer players, that we can't change.

[andgar923]

:facepalm

There's so many things wrong with this.


You either:

A. Have never seen Bron play
B. Don't understand the game and the differences of what I stated.
C. Can't read

[ShawkFactory]

Lot's of 'what if's' tho.

But we do know one thing for sure, he doesn't have the mentality to be a tough player. He'd get knocked around in the 80s and 90s, we've seen him shy away from today's softer players, that we can't change.
This is why these current vs 80s comparisons are incredibly stupid. You can't just transport Lebron from this day and age, where the game is different and social media reigns, and expect him to be exactly the same if he went to high school in the late 70s. It doesn't work like that and speculation in either direction is pointless.

[Rose'sACL]

Lot's of 'what if's' tho.

But we do know one thing for sure, he doesn't have the mentality to be a tough player. He'd get knocked around in the 80s and 90s, we've seen him shy away from today's softer players, that we can't change.
how do you know that?
don't tell me that flopping makes people seem weak. CP3 would a top 3 pg in any era and he is competitive as fck.
if lebron gets knocked around in the 80s and 90s then he will dish back some physical punishment of his own given his size. all the wing players in 80s and 90s would cry about how dirty lebron is if their big men tried to knock him around.

lebron isn't as small as jordan. he would use his elbow so much in the 80s and 90s that there would be constant bitching about it by the other team. i am just talking about offense here. he would be a terror on defense too.

it is pretty funny that people say that players from past eras would learn to shoot 3s if they played in current era but today's players would play the exact way according to you fools if they played in pervious eras.

lebron's size for a sf will allow him to play him at a top 2-3 player in the league in any era no matter how physcial it was. if he played the bad boys, he would make sure that they got a lot more bruised than him by the end of the series. He would bitch about the bad boys just like jordan used to and later on about the knicks may be like phil used to do for jordan.

[andgar923]

This is why these current vs 80s comparisons are incredibly stupid. You can't just transport Lebron from this day and age, where the game is different and social media reigns, and expect him to be exactly the same if he went to high school in the late 70s. It doesn't work like that and speculation in either direction is pointless.
i actually agree to an extent.

[andgar923]

how do you know that?
don't tell me that flopping makes people seem weak. CP3 would a top 3 pg in any era and he is competitive as fck.
if lebron gets knocked around in the 80s and 90s then he will dish back some physical punishment of his own given his size. all the wing players in 80s and 90s would cry about how dirty lebron is if their big men tried to knock him around.

lebron isn't as small as jordan. he would use his elbow so much in the 80s and 90s that there would be constant bitching about it by the other team. i am just talking about offense here. he would be a terror on defense too.

it is pretty funny that people say that players from past eras would learn to shoot 3s if they played in current era but today's players would play the exact way according to you fools if they played in pervious eras.

lebron's size for a sf will allow him to play him at a top 2-3 player in the league in any era no matter how physcial it was. if he played the bad boys, he would make sure that they got a lot more bruised than him by the end of the series. He would bitch about the bad boys just like jordan used to and later on about the knicks may be like phil used to do for jordan.

Because he does all of that now :rolleyes:

[Rose'sACL]

Because he does all of that now :rolleyes:
does what? tell me what he does that you posted it as a fact that lebron would struggle in 80s and 90s.

[ShawkFactory]

i actually agree to an extent.
I just think it's apparent that Lebron's gifts as an basketball player and athlete in general would translate to any era, regardless of the mentality or how the game is played.

[andgar923]

does what? tell me what he does that you posted it as a fact that lebron would struggle in 80s and 90s.

Dish back the punishment like you alluded too.

He doesn't do that now in a softer era, you expect him to do it in a tougher one?

[plowking]

So Jordan would average 40ppg in today's era?

Alex English, Dantley and Kiki Vandeweghe were all averaging 30ppg back in Jordan's era. I guess based on the soft rules they would be dominating today and be among the best players.

Kiki put up 30ppg on 56% shooting back in the day! Imagine him playing in today's weak ass era. 40ppg on 60% shooting sound about right? Probably the best player in the league right?
How about English? 30/5/4 in Jordan's era. What is that today? 38/7/6?
Dantley, another player that would be the best in the league had he played today. 30/5/4 in Jordan's era while shooting 56%!


Incredible how none of these players were celebrated like the Lebron's, Durant's, Wade's and Kobe's of today.

Jordan's era was just packed full of talent. They literally had 3 guys way better than Bron, and they just didn't realize it.

If we take Bron's best season of 27/8/7 on 57% in today's soft era, that is only like 23/5/4 in the tough era of Dantley, Jordan, English and Kiki. Why is Lebron so celebrated and marveled over? How come far better players like Dantley and Kiki weren't celebrated like Bron?

[Rose'sACL]

Dish back the punishment like you alluded too.

He doesn't do that now in a softer era, you expect him to do it in a tougher one?
how can he dish back punishment in current era? are you an idiot or are you an idiot?

he does whatever he can do under current rules. ask paul pierce. he just mentioned in an article he wrote a few weeks back that guarding lebron is the most physical thing. he has bruises everytime he guards lebron and this is not the 80s. he mentioned melo too.

both melo and lebron would more than hold themselves against bad boys.

twitter, camera phones, youtube etc make it impossible for the league to let things like reggie miller ejection take place while jordan stays in. no matter who does it in current league, both players are getting tossed.

ask kawhi or paul george if it is possible to guard lebron 1-on-1 in the post. unlike in the regular season, lebron goes straight to post and bullies anyone if the big man looks a little far off to cover for them. go watch last year's ECF. hibbert tried leaving PG 1-on-1 with lebron and lebron scored 3 times in a row by bullying him.

[plowking]

So Jordan would average 40ppg in today's era?

Alex English, Dantley and Kiki Vandeweghe were all averaging 30ppg back in Jordan's era. I guess based on the soft rules they would be dominating today and be among the best players.

Kiki put up 30ppg on 56% shooting back in the day! Imagine him playing in today's weak ass era. 40ppg on 60% shooting sound about right? Probably the best player in the league right?
How about English? 30/5/4 in Jordan's era. What is that today? 38/7/6?
Dantley, another player that would be the best in the league had he played today. 30/5/4 in Jordan's era while shooting 56%!


Incredible how none of these players were celebrated like the Lebron's, Durant's, Wade's and Kobe's of today.

Jordan's era was just packed full of talent. They literally had 3 guys way better than Bron, and they just didn't realize it.

If we take Bron's best season of 27/8/7 on 57% in today's soft era, that is only like 23/5/4 in the tough era of Dantley, Jordan, English and Kiki. Why is Lebron so celebrated and marveled over? How come far better players like Dantley and Kiki weren't celebrated like Bron?

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/4294703/vince-carter-says-its-over-o.gif

[Im Still Ballin]

So Jordan would average 40ppg in today's era?

Alex English, Dantley and Kiki Vandeweghe were all averaging 30ppg back in Jordan's era. I guess based on the soft rules they would be dominating today and be among the best players.

Kiki put up 30ppg on 56% shooting back in the day! Imagine him playing in today's weak ass era. 40ppg on 60% shooting sound about right? Probably the best player in the league right?
How about English? 30/5/4 in Jordan's era. What is that today? 38/7/6?
Dantley, another player that would be the best in the league had he played today. 30/5/4 in Jordan's era while shooting 56%!


Incredible how none of these players were celebrated like the Lebron's, Durant's, Wade's and Kobe's of today.

Jordan's era was just packed full of talent. They literally had 3 guys way better than Bron, and they just didn't realize it.

If we take Bron's best season of 27/8/7 on 57% in today's soft era, that is only like 23/5/4 in the tough era of Dantley, Jordan, English and Kiki. Why is Lebron so celebrated and marveled over? How come far better players like Dantley and Kiki weren't celebrated like Bron?
https://photo.tinhte.vn/store/2015/01/2785311_gif.gif

[riseagainst]

So Jordan would average 40ppg in today's era?

Alex English, Dantley and Kiki Vandeweghe were all averaging 30ppg back in Jordan's era. I guess based on the soft rules they would be dominating today and be among the best players.

Kiki put up 30ppg on 56% shooting back in the day! Imagine him playing in today's weak ass era. 40ppg on 60% shooting sound about right? Probably the best player in the league right?
How about English? 30/5/4 in Jordan's era. What is that today? 38/7/6?
Dantley, another player that would be the best in the league had he played today. 30/5/4 in Jordan's era while shooting 56%!


Incredible how none of these players were celebrated like the Lebron's, Durant's, Wade's and Kobe's of today.

Jordan's era was just packed full of talent. They literally had 3 guys way better than Bron, and they just didn't realize it.

If we take Bron's best season of 27/8/7 on 57% in today's soft era, that is only like 23/5/4 in the tough era of Dantley, Jordan, English and Kiki. Why is Lebron so celebrated and marveled over? How come far better players like Dantley and Kiki weren't celebrated like Bron?


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[riseagainst]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[Showtime80']

Well very simple explanation actually.

In English and Dantley you had two scoring machines from the first minute they stepped in the league, unstoppable from 18 feet in, rarely shot 3 pointers and great at getting to the foul line. Both in the hall of fame. Kiki is another example of a guy who could was sound fundamentally and rarely took a bad shot. Great mid range game and very underrated in running the floor. Played in some of the highest scoring and fastest teams of the era in the Nuggets and Blazer.

Want to know why they weren't more celebrated? Try playing for Utah, Denver and Portland in the 80's and get noticed before the expansion of cable and the internet. Virtually impossible specially when big cities like LA, Boston, Philly, Dallas, Houston, New York, Detroit, Atlanta and Chicago had all the marketable stars and winning teams.

I would like you to explain to me Michael Redd, a guy who is not even in the same REALM as Dantley or English, maybe you can compare him with Kiki although a lot less efficient, how did he average 27 ppg in 2007?!?

[plowking]

I would like you to explain to me Michael Redd, a guy who is not even in the same REALM as Dantley or English, maybe you can compare him with Kiki although a lot less efficient, how did he average 27 ppg in 2007?!?

Michael Redd is one of the greatest shooters to ever grace an NBA court, and put up 22ppg in his first season as a constant starter, all while under the old rules.

Clearly he was headed for a similar level of career to English and Dantley had it not been for injuries.

These guys putting up Bron like stats back in the tougher era like Dantley, English and Kiki only combined for a total of 5 all NBA teams! How is that possible? They were all better than Bron.

Their stats would all roughly convert to 37+ppg given the fact we do the same for Jordan. So, all better than Bron, better stats, more efficient, yet for some reason we consider Bron better... Why? Such injustice. I didn't realize there were so many players that would have put up 35ppg back in Jordan's time. Dominique another who recently told us he would have put up 40ppg based on today's rules.

[Akhenaten]

In 1985, 96.5% of all shot attempts were 2-pointers, compared to only 73% today - naturally, players from 1985 were a lot better at those shots than today's players.




what percentage of those 2 point baskets are off transition?

How many are dunks and layups?

How many are from midrange baskets?

would love to see the comparative numbers for both eras in these specific categories. One of you stat demons get these numbers, you guys are incredible at this btw, how yall get these numbers is amazing.

I know for a fact the there were much more transition baskets scored in the 80/90's.

People from this era will argue that the emphasis on transition defense in today's game is responsible. in the 80's/90's the emphasis was offensive rebounding.

Of course 80/90's touter will argue that today's players fundamentals has eroded and they just dont push the ball like guys of yesteryear.

Also players scored much more in the paint and more efficiently in the 80/90's than they do know particularly in the post. Adrian Dantley is the most striking example, a 3 season run of 30+ppg on over 56% shooting, most of it from the pivot.

just doesnt happen today

this era fan will say its being able to double off the ball and flood strong side
80/90's guy will say today's players are just not as skilled

and round and round we go

[Showtime80']

Simple answer to that too. Players in the 80's kept the game simple for them and their teammates and stuck to what made them great! If the mid range to low post game was James Worthy, Adrian Dantley, Bernard King or Alex English's bread and butter they didn't need to be camping out at the 3-point line or hoisting up contested 25 footers (I'm talking to you Kevin Love). They were GREAT AND LETHAL at what they did and nobody could stop them even if it was viewed as one dimensional.

Take LeBron for example, best player in the current NBA. In my opinion the guy could score even more and be far more effective if he spent more time in the post as he is a complete mismatch down there for anybody but he wants to be good at 5 DIFFERENT offensive aspect instead of being great at 1 (which I think would be his post game) Kareem and Worthy had less dimensions to their offense than LeBron but the thing they were GREAT at allowed them to dominate offensively more efficiently than LeBron.

15 seconds left on the clock, I know what Kareem, Worthy, Dantley, Wilkins or King are going offensively, probably still not going to stop it. What's LeBron's go to move again? Though so

Russell Westbrook is another example of the modern player, great and unmatched athleticism, 10 cent head, probably going to loose you more games in crunch time than win them due to bad decision makers. Players in the 80's were smarter decision makers, probably due to the fact that the league was more veteran oriented as everybody stayed in school for 3 to 4 years.

[Akhenaten]

Well very simple explanation actually.

In English and Dantley you had two scoring machines from the first minute they stepped in the league, unstoppable from 18 feet in, rarely shot 3 pointers and great at getting to the foul line. Both in the hall of fame. Kiki is another example of a guy who could was sound fundamentally and rarely took a bad shot. Great mid range game and very underrated in running the floor.

So you agree with plowking that these player's numbers and efficiency would be even gaudier in this current NBA give how soft the league is and the dearth of real centers?

if so , what numbers do you see these guys putting up in todays league, specifically ppg and FG%

Dantley
English
Kiki

hw about a guy like kelly tripucka who avg 27 ppg on 49% in 1982?

[GimmeThat]

The efficiency of 80s 90s coaches versus the modern era is easily a much more interesting topic.

[3ball]

The efficiency of 80s 90s coaches versus the modern era is easily a much more interesting topic.


Coaches back then sucked - they made it so much harder for their players.

All coaches in previous eras foolishly ran offenses that didn't shoot threes and positioned players close to the rim, which activated legal-paint camping, as stipulated in Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines - this rule allowed defenders to paint-camp with no time restriction if their man was in the paint already, or within 3 feet of either side.

Defenders in previous eras were already capable of helping from closer distances due to the lack of spacing, and now legal paint-camping allowed defenders to wait in the lane on penetration.. These things coupled with the much higher level of physicality gave defenses in previous eras superior capability to shut down the paint and offer better resistance against penetration.
.

[3ball]

Well very simple explanation actually.

In English and Dantley you had two scoring machines from the first minute they stepped in the league, unstoppable from 18 feet in, rarely shot 3 pointers and great at getting to the foul line. Both in the hall of fame. Kiki is another example of a guy who could was sound fundamentally and rarely took a bad shot. Great mid range game and very underrated in running the floor. Played in some of the highest scoring and fastest teams of the era in the Nuggets and Blazer.


In today's game, the spacing-enhanced wider lanes and lower physicality has made ball movement and penetration easier than before, which has allowed teams to maximize efficiency by pursuing 3-pointers and at-rim shots exclusively.. But this type of limited shot selection leads to the development of more limited and similar-looking offensive games (i.e. 3-and-D wing players.. D-and-Dunk bigs).

Otoh, in previous eras, the lack of spacing forced players to score ON defenders more often, especially in the mid-range area (they couldn't just use the spacing to get 3-pointers and layups every time like today's game).. The lack of spacing and resulting need to score ON defenders in the mid-range forced each player to develop scoring moves that worked for them and their physique - consequently, a wide variety of one-of-a-kind scoring styles were perfected by the individual player in previous eras (i.e. Kareem's skyhook, or the one-of-a-kind styles of McAdoo, Magic, Gervin, Malone, English, Dr. J, Andrew Toney, etc.)... Today's game doesn't have as much individually-unique skill - skills are more commodotized in today's game at the 2-5 spots (i.e. 3-and-D).

Here's a thread regarding footage that shows Kiki Vandeweghe dropping 27 points and 7 assists in the playoffs on the Lakers' James Worthy and Michael Cooper - it's clear that players back then took shots that they KNEW WERE GOING TO BE CONTESTED - open shots achieved through ball movement or easy dribble-penetration weren't as available without the requisite spacing we have today, so guys back then were expected to TAKE THEIR MAN:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034

[plowking]

No one has answered my question though.

How much are Dantley, English, Kiki, Dominique all averaging today? Near 40ppg seems to sound right given how we are extrapolating numbers from that era based on Jordan alone.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I love how this clown tries to group Jordan in with guys like Kiki and others who did damage in the early-mid 80's on fast paced teams. News flash: Jordan was still scoring 30+ ppg into the early-late 90's, which was a different league from the early-mid 80's. He was also scoring 30+ at a 90-95 pace, which is the same as the current league.

[plowking]

I love how this clown tries to group Jordan in with guys like Kiki and others who did damage in the early-mid 80's on fast paced teams. News flash: Jordan was still scoring 30+ ppg into the early-late 90's, which was a different league from the early-mid 80's. He was also scoring 30+ at a 90-95 pace, which is the same as the current league.

I was told Jordan's 37ppg would be 45ppg today, and that the rest of his scoring years would be 40ppg or there about.

All these guys were putting up 27+ppg when Jordan put that up, and even later into the 80's. Dale Ellis put up 28ppg the year Jordan put up 33ppg. What is that 28ppg in today's era based on how Jordan fans love to extrapolate? Ellis would be putting up a better season than 05-06 Kobe in terms of scoring I guess.

None of that hand-checking and crowded lanes to stop Ellis? Oh my god, I can only imagine what he'd do today. Easily beat Kobe's 81 point game too.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I was told Jordan's 37ppg would be 45ppg today, and that the rest of his scoring years would be 40ppg or there about.


I don't believe that personally. I believe Jordan would top out at 35.0-37.0 ppg on 49-52% FG/58-61% TS in the '06-present NBA (higher efficiency at the low end of that ppg range and lower efficiency at the higher ppg end).

[sdot_thadon]

So Jordan would average 40ppg in today's era?

Alex English, Dantley and Kiki Vandeweghe were all averaging 30ppg back in Jordan's era. I guess based on the soft rules they would be dominating today and be among the best players.

Kiki put up 30ppg on 56% shooting back in the day! Imagine him playing in today's weak ass era. 40ppg on 60% shooting sound about right? Probably the best player in the league right?
How about English? 30/5/4 in Jordan's era. What is that today? 38/7/6?
Dantley, another player that would be the best in the league had he played today. 30/5/4 in Jordan's era while shooting 56%!


Incredible how none of these players were celebrated like the Lebron's, Durant's, Wade's and Kobe's of today.

Jordan's era was just packed full of talent. They literally had 3 guys way better than Bron, and they just didn't realize it.

If we take Bron's best season of 27/8/7 on 57% in today's soft era, that is only like 23/5/4 in the tough era of Dantley, Jordan, English and Kiki. Why is Lebron so celebrated and marveled over? How come far better players like Dantley and Kiki weren't celebrated like Bron?
Patiently waiting

[Showtime80']

I love how you put players PEAK seasons as if that were the norm, Dale Ellis was a great shooter (probably the second best long range shooter behind Bird at that time) but he always hovered around low 20 point range, just for the 88-89 he exploded for 28 a game mainly because the focus of the offense shifted to him and Xavier McDaniel after Tom Chambers left.

Michael Jordan put up 63 points against the greatest team of all time in the Boston Garden and 69 against the powerhouse early 90's Cavs in the road also. Where and against which team did Kobe put up his 80 again?

[DonDadda59]

So Jordan would average 40ppg in today's era?

Alex English, Dantley and Kiki Vandeweghe were all averaging 30ppg back in Jordan's era. I guess based on the soft rules they would be dominating today and be among the best players.

Kiki put up 30ppg on 56% shooting back in the day! Imagine him playing in today's weak ass era. 40ppg on 60% shooting sound about right? Probably the best player in the league right?
How about English? 30/5/4 in Jordan's era. What is that today? 38/7/6?
Dantley, another player that would be the best in the league had he played today. 30/5/4 in Jordan's era while shooting 56%!


Incredible how none of these players were celebrated like the Lebron's, Durant's, Wade's and Kobe's of today.

Jordan's era was just packed full of talent. They literally had 3 guys way better than Bron, and they just didn't realize it.

If we take Bron's best season of 27/8/7 on 57% in today's soft era, that is only like 23/5/4 in the tough era of Dantley, Jordan, English and Kiki. Why is Lebron so celebrated and marveled over? How come far better players like Dantley and Kiki weren't celebrated like Bron?

Those guys played on shitty teams in high pace seasons and took virtually no 3s. It's not like they were like midgets Iverson or Arenas putting up 30-33 PPG after the rule changes on slow as a snail paced squads :lol

Dantley was basically a mini Melo with much better shot selection.

As to the OP, notice the common trend that virtually all of the players who shot 50% and above in all eras are guys with great mid range games who don't rely on chucking 3s. Wade and Parker (7 rings combined) took as many 3s this era as Jordan did in his, results are similar. That's not a coincidence, it's basic common sense. Which is never that common around here. :lol

[Akhenaten]

Those guys played on shitty teams in high pace seasons and took virtually no 3s. It's not like they were like midgets Iverson or Arenas putting up 30-33 PPG after the rule changes on slow as a snail paced squads :lol

Dantley was basically a mini Melo with much better shot selection.

As to the OP, notice the common trend that virtually all of the players who shot 50% and above in all eras are guys with great mid range games who don't rely on chucking 3s. Wade and Parker (7 rings combined) took as many 3s this era as Jordan did in his, results are similar. That's not a coincidence, it's basic common sense. Which is never that common around here. :lol

you still havent answered his question though.

[DonDadda59]

you still havent answered his question though.

What was his question exactly? Would Adrian Dantley or Kiki be putting up post rule changes Iverson or Arenas numbers on much slower paced teams? Who the f*ck knows? :confusedshrug:

[plowking]

Those guys played on shitty teams in high pace seasons and took virtually no 3s. It's not like they were like midgets Iverson or Arenas putting up 30-33 PPG after the rule changes on slow as a snail paced squads :lol

Dantley was basically a mini Melo with much better shot selection.

As to the OP, notice the common trend that virtually all of the players who shot 50% and above in all eras are guys with great mid range games who don't rely on chucking 3s. Wade and Parker (7 rings combined) took as many 3s this era as Jordan did in his, results are similar. That's not a coincidence, it's basic common sense. Which is never that common around here. :lol

Iverson was doing that before the rule changes too. Sorry.
Arenas was 22 at the time of the rule changes and still clearly upward trending as a player.
Again, not sure what that has to do with the thread.

And no, Dantley wasn't like a mini Melo. :oldlol:

[Akhenaten]

What was his question exactly? Would Adrian Dantley or Kiki be putting up post rule changes Iverson or Arenas numbers on much slower paced teams? Who the f*ck knows? :confusedshrug:

What would you project their numbers to be, that's the question?

the caveat being that you ARE one these guys that believe it is easier to score for perimeter players today?

If you are NOT one those guys then that question doesnt apply to you, this is for the "Jordan would avg 40+ on high percentages" folks.

[DonDadda59]

Iverson was doing that before the rule changes too. Sorry.
Arenas was 22 at the time of the rule changes and still clearly upward trending as a player.
Again, not sure what that has to do with the thread.

And no, Dantley wasn't like a mini Melo. :oldlol:

You don't find it funny that ALL the top players from the '96 draft didn't have their best career scoring years until after the rule changes in '06?

I shit you not- Kobe, Iverson, Allen, Nash, etc ALL magically had their career best years only after the rule changes... 10 seasons after they were drafted. Show me another time in NBA History where something similar happened. I'll wait.



What would you project their numbers to be, that's the question?


It would depend on what team they were on and what their role was in the offense :confusedshrug:

If they were given green lights on subpar teams ala Kobe, Iverson, Arenas, Westbrook, etc in this era... don't see why they couldn't put up 30-35 PPG like those guys did.

Obviously if they were on better squads with more talent, their numbers would be lower... kind of like what happened when they switched teams (ie, Dantley going to a contender in Detroit).

[plowking]

You don't find it funny that ALL the top players from the '96 draft didn't have their best career scoring years until after the rule changes in '06?

I shit you not- Kobe, Iverson, Allen, Nash, etc ALL magically had their career best years only after the rule changes... 10 seasons after they were drafted. Show me another time in NBA History where something similar happened. I'll wait.



Bron had his best season 10 years later too.
Dominique put up his most efficient scoring season as a 33 year old, 10 years later.
Magic Johnson put up 2 of his 3 best scoring seasons after his 10th season.
Glen Rice put up his 2nd best scoring season 9 years into his career.
Alex English had his best scoring season 10 years on.

Players peaking at that time is not uncommon. Why should we all be surprised, since it is one of the best draft classes ever. Is that enough?

And I'm not even talking about the 04-07 period where rules were enforced on a much stricter basis. I'm talking about right now. 08-current is as tough an era as ever to score, and people actually think 40ppg is plausible. :oldlol:

[3ball]

finesse over power is required to take the most advantage of the spacing, while power over finesse is required to overcome the lack of spacing.




Yet you don't think Lebron would dominate?


Today's spacing environment is perfect for Lebron.. With teams starting offenses further out on the court and 3-point shooters causing wider driving lanes, Lebron has more time and space to gain momentum and execute his one-legged takeoffs.

Otoh, in a no-spacing environment, the best scorers have elite explosive ability off of two legs - defenders are in closer proximity, and two-foot leaping is valued more and allows a scorer to be the most effective.

[DonDadda59]

Bron had his best season 10 years later too.
Dominique put up his most efficient scoring season as a 33 year old, 10 years later.
Magic Johnson put up 2 of his 3 best scoring seasons after his 10th season.
Glen Rice put up his 2nd best scoring season 9 years into his career.
Alex English had his best scoring season 10 years on.

Players peaking at that time is not uncommon. Why should we all be surprised, since it is one of the best draft classes ever. Is that enough?

And I'm not even talking about the 04-07 period where rules were enforced on a much stricter basis. I'm talking about right now. 08-current is as tough an era as ever to score, and people actually think 40ppg is plausible. :oldlol:

Bruh, you're giving me 1 or 2 guys per decade who did it. And you couldn't even get that right.... Bron had his best scoring season in '08 :lol

Find me another time in NBA History when perimeter players EN MASSE put up their best career scoring numbers a decade after they were drafted, all at the same time. Again, just look at the draft class of '96, tell me when the top guys had their best scoring season... then show me another time where something similar happened in NBA History.

I'll be here waiting when you do.

[plowking]

Bruh, you're giving me 1 or 2 guys per decade who did it. And you couldn't even get that right.... Bron had his best scoring season in '08 :lol

Find me another time in NBA History when perimeter players EN MASSE put up their best career scoring numbers a decade after they were drafted, all at the same time. Again, just look at the draft class of '96, tell me when the top guys had their best scoring season... then show me another time where something similar happened in NBA History.

I'll be here waiting when you do.

EN MASSE according to you based on what, 4 or 5 guys?

What about Marbury? Walker? Peja? Fisher?

So what is this based on? Allen, Kobe, Iverson and Nash?
Nash was already averaging 18ppg in Dallas before he left, then his ppg originally dipped before going up again when Stoudamire, the leading scorer on the team went down. So, that is iffy at best.

Now you're left with Allen, Kobe and Iverson... 3 guys. EN MASSE guys! It's happening!

Let's have a look at a random draft, say 1985.
Dumars has his best scoring season 8 and 9 years in.
A.C. Green has his 9 years in.
Terry Porter... wait for it... 8 years in.
Get this... when did Mullin have his most efficient scoring season? No way... 8 years in.

All these players peaking at the same time! Conspiracy. Something was making it easier for them!

[Heavincent]

Those guys played on shitty teams in high pace seasons and took virtually no 3s. It's not like they were like midgets Iverson or Arenas putting up 30-33 PPG after the rule changes on slow as a snail paced squads :lol

Dantley was basically a mini Melo with much better shot selection.

As to the OP, notice the common trend that virtually all of the players who shot 50% and above in all eras are guys with great mid range games who don't rely on chucking 3s. Wade and Parker (7 rings combined) took as many 3s this era as Jordan did in his, results are similar. That's not a coincidence, it's basic common sense. Which is never that common around here. :lol

Aren't you the same guy who referred to Steph Curry as "midget Reggie Miller"? I think you have the nostalgia blinders on.

[plowking]

Aren't you the same guy who referred to Steph Curry as "midget Reggie Miller"? I think you have the nostalgia blinders on.

Are you serious bro? He is right.

Don't you remember Miller carving up the defenses with his tight handle and great court vision with the drive and kicks?

[DonDadda59]

EN MASSE according to you based on what, 4 or 5 guys?

What about Marbury? Walker? Peja? Fisher?

So what is this based on? Allen, Kobe, Iverson and Nash?
Nash was already averaging 18ppg in Dallas before he left, then his ppg originally dipped before going up again when Stoudamire, the leading scorer on the team went down. So, that is iffy at best.

Now you're left with Allen, Kobe and Iverson... 3 guys. EN MASSE guys! It's happening!

Let's have a look at a random draft, say 1985.
Dumars has his best scoring season 8 and 9 years in.
A.C. Green has his 9 years in.
Terry Porter... wait for it... 8 years in.
Get this... when did Mullin have his most efficient scoring season? No way... 8 years in.

All these players peaking at the same time! Conspiracy. Something was making it easier for them!

Legit question- do you have a learning disability? :confusedshrug:

I asked you to show me another time in NBA History where perimeter players had their career best scoring seasons, at the same exact time, a decade after they were drafted... You respond by throwing out random names that clearly don't fit that criteria.

Marbury had his highest PPG in his 7th year, Toine his 5th, Peja his 6th. All within the normal Historical range.

Then you list guys from the '85 draft, who again don't fit the criteria. All of those guys had their career high PPGs at varying times, usually earlier in their careers. None of those guys experienced massive jumps in their scoring. Some of them are role players who were never really asked to be scorers beyond like 4th or 5th options? :lol

Again... show me any time in NBA History where perimeter players en masse, all of a sudden had their career best scoring years a decade after they were drafted. I'm talking jumping from 27 PPG to 35 PPG like Kobe, a 30 year old Iverson putting up 33 PPG, etc.

Still waiting.

[plowking]

Legit question- do you have a learning disability? :confusedshrug:

I asked you to show me another time in NBA History where perimeter players had their career best scoring seasons, at the same exact time, a decade after they were drafted... You respond by throwing out random names that clearly don't fit that criteria.

Marbury had his highest PPG in his 7th year, Toine his 5th, Peja his 6th. All within the normal Historical range.

Then you list guys from the '85 draft, who again don't fit the criteria. All of those guys had their career high PPGs at varying times, usually earlier in their careers. None of those guys experienced massive jumps in their scoring. Some of them are role players who were never really asked to be scorers beyond like 4th or 5th options? :lol

Again... show me any time in NBA History where perimeter players en masse, all of a sudden had their career best scoring years a decade after they were drafted. I'm talking jumping from 27 PPG to 35 PPG like Kobe, a 30 year old Iverson putting up 33 PPG, etc.

Still waiting.

I did. All the guys in the 85 draft literally had their best scoring seasons at 8 or 9 years after. That isn't within the normal historical range according to you. Same as the 96 draft. Only Iverson and Kobe had their best scoring seasons in the exact year you want, which is 05-06. Allen had his the year after. It happnes, and isn't just subject to the 96 draft. The fact you're shocked that Kobe had his best scoring season at the age of 27 is baffling. :oldlol: Was he supposed to get worse because it was his 10th season.

So now you're basically asking me why Iverson and Allen had their best scoring seasons late in their career. Again... your EN MASSE statement is looking quite the opposite. Especially when it boils down to two guys. None of the other players like Marbury, Peja, etc witnessed this spike, which you say is due to the rules. Funny that. Two guys... and you think you have a case, when I gave you multiple examples. :oldlol:

Just because you're threatened by your lack of decent argument, don't resort to petty insults. Just admit you're wrong.

[warriorfan]

kobe's score didn't jump up because he turned 27 it jumped up because all of a sudden defenders literally couldn't put their hand on him anymore, u dont know ball bro



:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[DonDadda59]

I did. All the guys in the 85 draft literally had their best scoring seasons at 8 or 9 years after. That isn't within the normal historical range according to you. Same as the 96 draft. Only Iverson and Kobe had their best scoring seasons in the exact year you want, which is 05-06. Allen had his the year after. It happnes, and isn't just subject to the 96 draft. The fact you're shocked that Kobe had his best scoring season at the age of 27 is baffling. :oldlol: Was he supposed to get worse because it was his 10th season.

So now you're basically asking me why Iverson and Allen had their best scoring seasons late in their career. Again... your EN MASSE statement is looking quite the opposite. Especially when it boils down to two guys. None of the other players like Marbury, Peja, etc witnessed this spike, which you say is due to the rules. Funny that. Two guys... and you think you have a case, when I gave you multiple examples. :oldlol:

Just because you're threatened by your lack of decent argument, don't resort to petty insults. Just admit you're wrong.

Let's see if visuals work better...

2005-06 (League Pace: 90.5)
1) Kobe Bryant 35.4 *Career High, Drafted 1996*
2) Allen Iverson 33 *Career High, Drafted 1996*
3) LeBron James 31.4 *Career High*
4) Gilbert Arenas 29.3 *Career High*
5) Dwyane Wade 27.2 *Set Finals FTA Record*
6) Paul Pierce (6'7 SF) 26.8 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1998*
7) Dirk Nowitzki (7' "PF") 26.6 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1998*
8) Carmelo Anthony (6'8 SF) 26.5 PPG
9) Michael Redd (6'6 SG) 25.4 PPG *Career High, Drafted 2000*
10) Ray Allen (6'5 SG) 25.1 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1996*

Something like that. Find me another season like that, any time in NBA History. Take your time now.

I'll be here... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_uWS6K-VF8)

[plowking]

So Kobe averaged 30ppg 2 years before he averaged 28ppg, and he hits his prime years (27-30), and we're all shocked he has his best scoring season, considering he is a scorer?

Oh, okay. I didn't realize Kobe wasn't meant to peak.

[DonDadda59]

kobe's score didn't jump up because he turned 27 it jumped up because all of a sudden defenders literally couldn't put their hand on him anymore, u dont know ball bro



:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

Yup Kobe turned 27 and was all of a sudden putting up 35 PPG a season after putting up 27 PPG... at the same exact time that his draft mate turned 30 and was putting up 33 PPG... 10 seasons after they were drafted... when other perimeter players all of a sudden had career highs... which just coincidentally coincided with the rule changes over the summer.

Guy can't find another season like that because it doesn't exist in NBA History. Perimeter scoring has never been easier than in the post rule change era.

But let's see if Mr. Plow brings up AC Green again. Can't wait :lol

[Timmy D for MVP]

If the argument is efficiency then yes it is interesting to look at the previous eras and compare them to now and how we use analytics and why the numbers change or don't change.

If the argument is about whether or not it's easier for perimeter players to score now I think it's pretty obvious that the rule changes geared the game to be more open for the perimeter style of play and the NBA has benefited from that.

[DatAsh]

I think it depends on the player. Without zone coverage, it's easier to get to the rim in today's game, and players that drive a lot will generally average more free throws per shot attempt. But - unlike previous eras - you absolutely have to have either a midrange shot or a longrange shot, otherwise they'll just zone you up.

We saw this in the 2013 finals with how the Spurs played Lebron. Granted, Lebron actually has a midrange and longrange shot, but it was off at the time.

Basically, if you have a good midrange/longrange shot and a solid first-step, lack of handchecking will probably help you more than zones will hurt you. If you lack the range to beat a zone, you'll probably find it harder to score in today's game, despite the lack of handchecking.

[DatAsh]

If the argument is efficiency then yes it is interesting to look at the previous eras and compare them to now and how we use analytics and why the numbers change or don't change.

If the argument is about whether or not it's easier for perimeter players to score now I think it's pretty obvious that the rule changes geared the game to be more open for the perimeter style of play and the NBA has benefited from that.

Obviously, that's what they were intended to do, but I think it depends on the player.

[plowking]

Let's see if visuals work better...

2005-06 (League Pace: 90.5)
1) Kobe Bryant 35.4 *Career High, Drafted 1996*
2) Allen Iverson 33 *Career High, Drafted 1996*
3) LeBron James 31.4 *Career High*
4) Gilbert Arenas 29.3 *Career High*
5) Dwyane Wade 27.2 *Set Finals FTA Record*
6) Paul Pierce (6'7 SF) 26.8 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1998*
7) Dirk Nowitzki (7' "PF") 26.6 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1998*
8) Carmelo Anthony (6'8 SF) 26.5 PPG
9) Michael Redd (6'6 SG) 25.4 PPG *Career High, Drafted 2000*
10) Ray Allen (6'5 SG) 25.1 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1996*

Something like that. Find me another season like that, any time in NBA History. Take your time now.

I'll be here... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_uWS6K-VF8)

Why are you shocked once again?

Kobe is 27 and in his prime.
Dirk is 27 and in his prime.
Pierce is 28 and in his prime.
Gilbert is 25 and entering his prime.

Those aren't Allen's or Redd's career years. At the time, yes.

Take a look at 87-88.

Jordan - 35ppg
Dominique - 30.7ppg - career year
Bird - 29.9ppg - career year
Barkley - 28.4ppg - career year
Malone - 27.7ppg - career year at the time
Drexler - 27ppg - career year
Ellis - 25.8ppg - career year at the time
Aguire - 25.1ppg
English - 25ppg - 34 years old, somehow still putting up these numbers


Theus somehow scores 22ppg that season after averaging 12, 16, 18, 20 the years before... Hmm

Byron Scott also puts up 22ppg that season, and was never 2ppg within that any other year of his career.

Xavier McDaniels has his 2nd best scoring season ever.

Hmmm, 7 guys with a career year that year, and several experiencing a rejuvenation in scoring...

[plowking]

Why are you shocked once again?

Kobe is 27 and in his prime.
Dirk is 27 and in his prime.
Pierce is 28 and in his prime.
Gilbert is 25 and entering his prime.

Those aren't Allen's or Redd's career years. At the time, yes.

Take a look at 87-88.

Jordan - 35ppg
Dominique - 30.7ppg - career year
Bird - 29.9ppg - career year
Barkley - 28.4ppg - career year
Malone - 27.7ppg - career year at the time
Drexler - 27ppg - career year
Ellis - 25.8ppg - career year at the time
Aguire - 25.1ppg
English - 25ppg - 34 years old, somehow still putting up these numbers


Theus somehow scores 22ppg that season after averaging 12, 16, 18, 20 the years before... Hmm

Byron Scott also puts up 22ppg that season, and was never 2ppg within that any other year of his career.

Xavier McDaniels has his 2nd best scoring season ever.

Hmmm, 7 guys with a career year that year, and several experiencing a rejuvenation in scoring...

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[DonDadda59]

Why are you shocked once again?

Kobe is 27 and in his prime.
Dirk is 27 and in his prime.
Pierce is 28 and in his prime.
Gilbert is 25 and entering his prime.

Those aren't Allen's or Redd's career years. At the time, yes.

Take a look at 87-88.

Jordan - 35ppg
Dominique - 30.7ppg - career year
Bird - 29.9ppg - career year
Barkley - 28.4ppg - career year
Malone - 27.7ppg - career year at the time
Drexler - 27ppg - career year
Ellis - 25.8ppg - career year at the time
Aguire - 25.1ppg
English - 25ppg - 34 years old, somehow still putting up these numbers


Theus somehow scores 22ppg that season after averaging 12, 16, 18, 20 the years before... Hmm

Byron Scott also puts up 22ppg that season, and was never 2ppg within that any other year of his career.

Xavier McDaniels has his 2nd best scoring season ever.

Hmmm, 7 guys with a career year that year, and several experiencing a rejuvenation in scoring...

Bold = guys in the league 6 years or less, all but Dominique being in the league 4 or less. That's the usual range for career scoring highs... not a decade. Where are the guys from the mid-late 70s drafts on there? Plus add the fact that the overall scoring of the top guys remained consistent from the previous season (compare the scoring leaders from '06 to just a season before, the last season before the rule changes) and Jordan actually scored less. Plus the overall league pace was 100.8, 10 possessions per game more than '06 where 30 year old Iverson was putting up 33 PPG (also consider the pace in 05 was virtually the same as '06).

Are you still riding with the guys hitting their peak 10 years after they were drafted line? :confusedshrug:

[Timmy D for MVP]

Obviously, that's what they were intended to do, but I think it depends on the player.

Of course. It's always dangerous to apply a general trend to every single person because there's always bound to be individual differences.

But I feel it's pretty comfortable to say that the rule change succeeded.

[Milbuck]

How is it that unreasonable that players could peak 10 years into the league? Especially when some of them like Kobe came into the league young..

And how is AI going from 31/8 on 53% TS to 33/7 on 54% TS a massive leap? Dude upped his scoring by 2 ppg and dropped in assists by 1 apg. If that's some massive gap, I wonder what massive rule change happened in 2012-13 to 2013-14 that made KD go from 28/4 on 65% TS to 32/6 on 64% TS. I mean, there's no way he...improved?

Kobe experiencing a big bump in scoring, going from a season in which he missed like a month with injury, coach left midway through the season, team was stripped down from previous years, massive scrutiny and fallout from the Shaq-Kobe-Phil stuff, etc....to a season where he gets Phil back for the whole year, is more or less himself physically, has the greenest of green lights offensively, and hit the age where a ton if not most players peak (27)...is somehow unrealistic? Attributing his bump in scoring entirely to the rule changes is clearly an agenda driven argument.

[Timmy D for MVP]

How is it that unreasonable that players could peak 10 years into the league? Especially when some of them like Kobe came into the league young..

And how is AI going from 31/8 on 53% TS to 33/7 on 54% TS a massive leap? Dude upped his scoring by 2 ppg and dropped in assists by 1 apg. If that's some massive gap, I wonder what massive rule change happened in 2012-13 to 2013-14 that made KD go from 28/4 on 65% TS to 32/6 on 64% TS. I mean, there's no way he...improved?

Kobe experiencing a big bump in scoring, going from a season in which he missed like a month with injury, coach left midway through the season, team was stripped down from previous years, massive scrutiny and fallout from the Shaq-Kobe-Phil stuff, etc....to a season where he gets Phil back for the whole year, is more or less himself physically, has the greenest of green lights offensively, and hit the age where a ton if not most players peak (27)...is somehow unrealistic? Attributing his bump in scoring entirely to the rule changes is clearly an agenda driven argument.

Completely ignoring the rule change would seem to serve the same purpose don't you think?

[DonDadda59]

How is it that unreasonable that players could peak 10 years into the league? Especially when some of them like Kobe came into the league young..

And how is AI going from 31/8 on 53% TS to 33/7 on 54% TS a massive leap? Dude upped his scoring by 2 ppg and dropped in assists by 1 apg. If that's some massive gap, I wonder what massive rule change happened in 2012-13 to 2013-14 that made KD go from 28/4 on 65% TS to 32/6 on 64% TS. I mean, there's no way he...improved?

Kobe experiencing a big bump in scoring, going from a season in which he missed like a month with injury, coach left midway through the season, team was stripped down from previous years, massive scrutiny and fallout from the Shaq-Kobe-Phil stuff, etc....to a season where he gets Phil back for the whole year, is more or less himself physically, has the greenest of green lights offensively, and hit the age where a ton if not most players peak (27)...is somehow unrealistic? Attributing his bump in scoring entirely to the rule changes is clearly an agenda driven argument.

Like I told Mr. Plow, look at the season before- same DRTG, pace, everything. Starkly different results. It's not just Bean and AI, it was a wholesale explosion of perimeter players experiencing career highs, setting records, etc. Many of those guys had been in the league for a decade. That's never happened in the NBA, ever. Wade in the '06 finals had more FTAs than Shaq had in any finals series. Seriously think about that.


2004-05 (League Wide DRTG: 106.1 League Pace: 90.5)
1) Allen Iverson 30.7
2) Kobe Bryant 27.6
3) LeBron James 27.2
4) Dirk Nowitzki 26.1
5) A'mare Stoudemire 26
6) Tracy McGrady 25.7
7) Gilbert Arenas 25.5
8) Vince Carter 24.5
9) Dwyane Wade 24.1
10) Ray Allen 23.9

2005-06 (League Wide DRTG: 106.2 League Pace: 90.9)
1) Kobe Bryant 35.4 *Career High, Drafted 1996*
2) Allen Iverson 33 *Career High, Drafted 1996*
3) LeBron James 31.4 *Career High*
4) Gilbert Arenas 29.3 *Career High*
5) Dwyane Wade 27.2 *Set Finals FTA Record*
6) Paul Pierce (6'7 SF) 26.8 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1998*
7) Dirk Nowitzki (7' "PF") 26.6 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1998*
8) Carmelo Anthony (6'8 SF) 26.5 PPG
9) Michael Redd (6'6 SG) 25.4 PPG *Career High, Drafted 2000*
10) Ray Allen (6'5 SG) 25.1 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1996*

Obviously something changed from one season to the next... but all probably a coincidence though.

[Milbuck]

Like I told Mr. Plow, look at the season before- same DRTG, pace, everything. Starkly different results. It's not just Bean and AI, it was a wholesale explosion of perimeter players experiencing career highs, setting records, etc. Many of those guys had been in the league for a decade. That's never happened in the NBA, ever. Wade in the '06 finals had more FTAs than Shaq had in any finals series. Seriously think about that.


2004-05 (League Wide DRTG: 106.1 League Pace: 90.5)
1) Allen Iverson 30.7
2) Kobe Bryant 27.6
3) LeBron James 27.2
4) Dirk Nowitzki 26.1
5) A'mare Stoudemire 26
6) Tracy McGrady 25.7
7) Gilbert Arenas 25.5
8) Vince Carter 24.5
9) Dwyane Wade 24.1
10) Ray Allen 23.9

2005-06 (League Wide DRTG: 106.2 League Pace: 90.9)
1) Kobe Bryant 35.4 *Career High, Drafted 1996*
2) Allen Iverson 33 *Career High, Drafted 1996*
3) LeBron James 31.4 *Career High*
4) Gilbert Arenas 29.3 *Career High*
5) Dwyane Wade 27.2 *Set Finals FTA Record*
6) Paul Pierce (6'7 SF) 26.8 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1998*
7) Dirk Nowitzki (7' "PF") 26.6 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1998*
8) Carmelo Anthony (6'8 SF) 26.5 PPG
9) Michael Redd (6'6 SG) 25.4 PPG *Career High, Drafted 2000*
10) Ray Allen (6'5 SG) 25.1 PPG *Career High, Drafted 1996*

Obviously something changed from one season to the next... but all probably a coincidence though.5 out of the 10 guys you mentioned were drafted within 6-7 years of the rule changes, which is what you pointed out when plowing gave you a list of similar occurrences?

And then you have guys on that list like Kobe (27), Dirk (27), Redd (26), Pierce (28), all at or within a year of the age when players commonly peak.. They weren't a bunch of geezers that exploded out of nowhere, they were literally at the age where they were supposed to peak.

No one is disputing that the rule changes had an effect. But you're hyping it up like crazy and neglecting critical context.

[DonDadda59]

5 out of the 10 guys you mentioned were drafted within 6-7 years of the rule changes, which is what you pointed out when plowing gave you a list of similar occurrences?

And then you have guys on that list like Kobe (27), Dirk (27), Redd (26), Pierce (28), all at or within a year of the age when players commonly peak.. They weren't a bunch of geezers that exploded out of nowhere, they were literally at the age where they were supposed to peak.

No one is disputing that the rule changes had an effect. But you're hyping it up like crazy and neglecting critical context.

I'm really not though. You can even forget the stats and just stick to watching the games. Compare how the Pistons played Kobe in the '04 Finals (which was one of the main catalysts for the rule changes) and how they played Wade in the ECF just 2 years later . It's jarring, night and day even though both were top 5 defensive squads in their respective years. Bean barely had room to breathe and the refs could've cared less whereas Wade was getting to the bucket unimpeded, literally at will. Anyone who can't tell the difference between pre and post rule changes play doesn't have a very discerning eye for basketball IMO.

[plowking]

I'm really not though. You can even forget the stats and just stick to watching the games. Compare how the Pistons played Kobe in the '04 Finals (which was one of the main catalysts for the rule changes) and how they played Wade in the ECF just 2 years later . It's jarring, night and day even though both were top 5 defensive squads in their respective years. Bean barely had room to breathe and the refs could've cared less whereas Wade was getting to the bucket unimpeded, literally at will. Anyone who can't tell the difference between pre and post rule changes play doesn't have a very discerning eye for basketball IMO.

And you don't have an eye for basketball if you can't tell that basketball now is very different from 04-07.

I showed you exactly what you wanted, and now you're putting in more stipulations. :oldlol:
You're shocked that guys 7 years into the league like Dirk and Pierce and Redd are putting up career highs, but then you go on to defend your argument, yet the list of players I gave you are essentially in very similar age ranges. :oldlol:


Yes, basketball was slightly easier in 04-07 for perimeter players. Now it isn't. They've gone back to the same old shit, with even more things in the way to stop perimeter players. How is it that not a single player is averaging over 28ppg?
You are one of the dudes on here who claims Jordan could hit 40ppg in this era, yet basic logic and reasoning would suggest otherwise. You don't seem to care for it when it comes to Jordan though. :oldlol:

[Akhenaten]

I'm really not though. You can even forget the stats and just stick to watching the games. Compare how the Pistons played Kobe in the '04 Finals (which was one of the main catalysts for the rule changes) and how they played Wade in the ECF just 2 years later . It's jarring, night and day even though both were top 5 defensive squads in their respective years. Bean barely had room to breathe and the refs could've cared less whereas Wade was getting to the bucket unimpeded, literally at will. Anyone who can't tell the difference between pre and post rule changes play doesn't have a very discerning eye for basketball IMO.

Could it be that Wade is just a far superior driver, finisher and athlete?

Wade shot less than 9 fta that series and shot 62% on FG while avg 27 ppg, Kobe could never do that against any defense in any series

why cherrypick 06 when he played them a year before in 05 and COOKED them before getting injured?

04-05

30/6/5 46% before getting hurt

Wade is just THAT much more competent getting to the rim and finishing than Kobe, he's in another tier when it comes to that particular skillset, the only otther guy in his class in this era is a 6'8 250 pound behemoth.

Wade's raw athleticism and explosiveness is just that beastly.

its the same reason why he dominated the same Celtics that stifled Kobe.

33/7/5 56% on 5 made ft's per game with no second option and the D being able to completely load up on him

kobe vs the same D

29/8/6 40% on 8 made FT's per game

[DonDadda59]

And you don't have an eye for basketball if you can't tell that basketball now is very different from 04-07.

I showed you exactly what you wanted, and now you're putting in more stipulations. :oldlol:
You're shocked that guys 7 years into the league like Dirk and Pierce and Redd are putting up career highs, but then you go on to defend your argument, yet the list of players I gave you are essentially in very similar age ranges. :oldlol:


Yes, basketball was slightly easier in 04-07 for perimeter players. Now it isn't. They've gone back to the same old shit, with even more things in the way to stop perimeter players. How is it that not a single player is averaging over 28ppg?
You are one of the dudes on here who claims Jordan could hit 40ppg in this era, yet basic logic and reasoning would suggest otherwise. You don't seem to care for it when it comes to Jordan though. :oldlol:

Because Kevin Durant is injured and there's an overall dearth of scoring talent in the league. A lot of guys who are in the top 5 scorers list right now are traditionally 2nd or third option players. There's literally no other era in NBA History where James F*cking Harden would be the leading scorer. None :lol

Healthy Durant and guys like Kobe, Iverson would be putting up 32PPG+ easily (ala KD last year on a championship contender with a chucking PG who is now averaging 40+ PPG himself since getting the green light :oldlol: ).


Could it be that Wade is just a far superior driver, finisher and athlete?

Wade shot less than 9 fta that series and shot 62% on FG while avg 27 ppg, Kobe could never do that against any defense in any series

why cherrypick 06 when he played them a year before in 05 and COOKED them before getting injured?

04-05

30/6/5 46% before getting hurt

Wade is just THAT much more competent getting to the rim and finishing than Kobe, he's in another tier when it comes to that particular skillset, the only otther guy in his class in this era is a 6'8 250 pound behemoth.

Wade's raw athleticism and explosiveness is just that beastly.

its the same reason why he dominated the same Celtics that stifled Kobe.

33/7/5 56% on 5 made ft's per game with no second option and the D being able to completely load up on him

kobe vs the same D

29/8/6 40% on 8 made FT's per game



compared

Right, Wade's exploits under the rule changes is prime example of the sort of benefit a player like that has in this era's perimeter climate (prime Wade=smaller, less athletic version of young Jordan). But Wade put up 26 PPG on 44% FG against the Pistons in the '05 ECF and then the next season put up 27 PPG on 62% FG (nothing changed though).

Like I said, watch the tape. I think there's lots of footage from the '06 ECF. Just watch how easily Wade is getting buckets against a top 5 defense. In the first game I remember Hubie Brown being disgusted by how porous the D was and being shocked that Wade was getting to the bucket repeatedly, unimpeded by a team that just the season before had held him to 44% shooting and completely shut Kobe down the season before that.

[plowking]

DonDadda logic:

Jordan has great series - Look at that! GOAT! Killed them!
Another wing post Jordan has great series - Look at this weak era! Open lanes! *Insert more excuses*

[DonDadda59]

DonDadda logic:

Jordan has great series - Look at that! GOAT! Killed them!
Another wing post Jordan has great series - Look at this weak era! Open lanes! *Insert more excuses*

That'll do, pig. That'll do :applause:

[warriorfan]

DonDadda logic:

Jordan has great series - Look at that! GOAT! Killed them!
Another wing post Jordan has great series - Look at this weak era! Open lanes! *Insert more excuses*


http://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nba/hand-checking.aspx


"Hand-checking is typically considered a foul if the defender continually uses his hands to impede the progress of any offensive player. As contact is frequent during a game of basketball, officials will not often call a hand-checking foul if the contact between a defender and an offensive player is incidental. Hand-check fouls are mostly called against defenders assigned ball handlers, and therefore usually occur out on the perimeter or at the top of the key.

The hand-check penalty was introduced by the NBA at the outset of the 2004-2005 season, primarily as a way to allow the offense more freedom of movement and to keep games running more smoothly."