Going forward: Gobert vs Favors

[plowking]

With the hype that Gobert has been getting recently, it seems Favors is forgotten despite at this time, still probably being the better player out of the two, and still quite young with room to develop much like Gobert.

Since the start of 2015, these are their averages:
Gobert - 9ppg, 10rpg, 2apg, 3bpg on 62% shooting. 30 minutes a game.
Favors - 17ppg, 8rpg, 2apg, 2bpg on 53% shooting. 32 minutes a game.

Favors is almost exactly a year older, is probably the better player right now, slightly more polished, and a decent rebounder and defender in his own right. Made great progress every year he has been in the league and is slowly becoming one of the better young PF's in the league.

Gobert is younger, seems slightly more dynamic out of the two, and is the better defender. The more efficient and bigger guy too.

Gobert has been getting a lot of talk recently due to breaking through in a similar way to Whiteside, while you hardly ever hear about Favors, but who out of these two would you take going forward given the similarities in age and position?

[Prime_Shaq]

Take this with a grain of salt because I don't watch the Jazz much but Favours has been in the league much longer and his development has been somewhat slow. Based on Gobert's development this year, I would go with him.

[Milbuck]

Gobert by far imo. Gobert's impact goes way beyond stats. Dude could go scoreless in a game and still be the most impactful player on the court. His presence on defense is already absurdly good right now, I can't even imagine what kind of monster he's gonna be in 5 years. Favors is a nice player and should be a complementary piece...Gobert is gonna be a perennial DPOY candidate for years and a legitimate franchise player for Utah.

[hawksdogsbraves]

Definitely Gobert, it is kind of wild that Favors is only one year older though, seems like he's been in the league for a long time.

[plowking]

Definitely Gobert, it is kind of wild that Favors is only one year older though, seems like he's been in the league for a long time.

Yeah, he came out in the same draft as Cousins. Crazy.

I never thought he'd be much in the league, but he added some size to his frame and is doing nicely. He is putting up these numbers all while playing only 31 minutes this season. Rather impressive.

Obviously the Jazz have gone through a lot of changes this season, so the players are still getting adjusted, but I honestly think Favors will put it together next season and become something of a 22/9 type player, in the mold of Aldridge and Bosh, but probably better on the offensive boards.

[Alamо]

If I had to pick one, Gobert. He's an elite DPOY level defender. 7'2. 7'9 wingspan 9'7 standing reach. 30 inch vert. Holds the paint down as good as anyone in the league. He's already the defensive anchor of this Jazz team. His defense controls the floor. At just 22 years old, he's a prodigy.


But I would do whatever I could to keep both. With Favors and Gobert on the floor the paint is locked down. Two great athletic defensive big men who seem to constantly improving. It takes a lot of pressure off of the perimeter defenders knowing you have two giant trees backing you up, which will do wonders for the confidence of the rest of the young players on the Jazz. I think if you keep this core of Gobert, Favors, and Hayward together, this team will grow together and be fine in the long run without making any major moves.

[Xiao Yao You]

With the hype that Gobert has been getting recently, it seems Favors is forgotten despite at this time, still probably being the better player out of the two, and still quite young with room to develop much like Gobert.

Since the start of 2015, these are their averages:
Gobert - 9ppg, 10rpg, 2apg, 3bpg on 62% shooting. 30 minutes a game.
Favors - 17ppg, 8rpg, 2apg, 2bpg on 53% shooting. 32 minutes a game.

Favors is almost exactly a year older, is probably the better player right now, slightly more polished, and a decent rebounder and defender in his own right. Made great progress every year he has been in the league and is slowly becoming one of the better young PF's in the league.

Gobert is younger, seems slightly more dynamic out of the two, and is the better defender. The more efficient and bigger guy too.

Gobert has been getting a lot of talk recently due to breaking through in a similar way to Whiteside, while you hardly ever hear about Favors, but who out of these two would you take going forward given the similarities in age and position?

Gobert is better. The Jazz sucked before he had the chance to step up in December. Favors has had a lot of hype since they got him especially as a defender but until this year he hadn't really showed much improvement and his D still leaves a lot to be desired. Gobert is the guy to build around without a doubt.

[Cocaine80s]

If I had to pick one, Gobert. He's an elite DPOY level defender. 7'2. 7'9 wingspan 9'7 standing reach. 30 inch vert. Holds the paint down as good as anyone in the league. He's already the defensive anchor of this Jazz team. His defense controls the floor. At just 22 years old, he's a prodigy.



:biggums:

I need to watch some jazz games

[Xiao Yao You]

:biggums:

I need to watch some jazz games

I'd recommend it. Watch France this summer too. Gobert is a joy to watch play.

[KDthunderup]

I would love to see the Jazz go and sign Khris Middleton this free agency.

PG Exum
SG Middleton
SF Hayward
PF Favors
C Gobert

That team would be a defensive juggernaut

[Alamо]

:biggums:

I need to watch some jazz games



He's a ****ing tree. He makes haslem look like a little kid in this gif




https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/I-nmrcI8V5dWD6cWBwi-u3jC1l8=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2661342/eurooo.0.gif

[Milbuck]

I would love to see the Jazz go and sign Khris Middleton this free agency.

PG Exum
SG Middleton
SF Hayward
PF Favors
C Gobert

That team would be a defensive juggernaut
Bucks are matching pretty much anything on Mids.

[TaLvsCuaL]

I really like Favors but Gobert just destroyed Spain in the last World Cup against Pau, Marc and Ibaka. He is a beast defensively and his ceiling is much bigger. Insane long arms, mobility and work rate for his size.

[DatAsh]

Yeah, he came out in the same draft as Cousins. Crazy.

I never thought he'd be much in the league, but he added some size to his frame and is doing nicely. He is putting up these numbers all while playing only 31 minutes this season. Rather impressive.

Obviously the Jazz have gone through a lot of changes this season, so the players are still getting adjusted, but I honestly think Favors will put it together next season and become something of a 22/9 type player, in the mold of Aldridge and Bosh, but probably better on the offensive boards.

I'd take Gobert if I'm looking to add to a contending team going forward. His offensive game needs work for sure, but his defense is already incredible given his age. I think he'll improve a lot offensively next season. Utah has more hope than their record would suggest imo.

[Tycriss]

I really like Favors but Gobert just destroyed Spain in the last World Cup against Pau, Marc and Ibaka. He is a beast defensively and his ceiling is much bigger. Insane long arms, mobility and work rate for his size.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-09-2015/S7NxB-.gif

[Xiao Yao You]

I would love to see the Jazz go and sign Khris Middleton this free agency.

PG Exum
SG Middleton
SF Hayward
PF Favors
C Gobert

That team would be a defensive juggernaut

They need an NBA caliber pg obviously. Haven't had one since Mo Williams left. They are a defensive juggernaut already. Brandon Knight should be their target.

[FireDavidKahn]

Gobert is already an elite defensive center. Anyone who doesn't pick him is crazy

[shmozzle]

I'd take Gobert if I'm looking to add to a contending team going forward. His offensive game needs work for sure, but his defense is already incredible given his age. I think he'll improve a lot offensively next season. Utah has more hope than their record would suggest imo.

The jazz are 20 of their last 37. They are already a side that can compete every single night and although they won't make the playoffs this season, they are poised to affect the playoff hopes of other teams down the stretch.

Big reasons are gobert and favors moving to the power forward spot.

Personally there are very few players in this league I would take over gobert right now.

[andremiller07]

Bucks are matching pretty much anything on Mids.
I was telling you at the start of the season when he was not playing much that he should have been and that he's a beast.

[buddha]

it's too bad Exum is a bust, otherwise the Jazz would have a really bright future.

[Xiao Yao You]

it's too bad Exum is a bust, otherwise the Jazz would have a really bright future.

Probably had his best game last night. He looks to be part of their future. Trey maybe not for long.

[El Kabong]

it's too bad Exum is a bust, otherwise the Jazz would have a really bright future.
Yikes, we call guys busts this early now? He shouldn't be in the position he's in, but he's doing OK. Plenty of water to go under the bridge before he's a bust.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Gobert's upside is greater. I haven't seen him as much this season, but you could just see dude's talent oozing during last summers FIBA tournament. There were defensive plays in that competition, against great NBA players, that made you hyped (look at the gif of Gasol getting his shit pushed back). Gobert has a unique blend of athleticism, smarts, and length; length as in wiry.

Dude is gonna be a faster/leaner version of Hibbert, with more intelligence.

[SwishSquared]

They need an NBA caliber pg obviously. Haven't had one since Mo Williams left. They are a defensive juggernaut already. Brandon Knight should be their target.
Brandon Knight's a good player, but he's definitely not the guy they need imo. He has tunnel vision and has to be the primary playmaker to be effective, plus wants a deal paying him close to Bledsoe money. You guys could try to move Burks + Booker to Charlotte for Lance + Vonleh + '15 first rounder (esp if Charlotte misses playoffs). Use that pick + your own to try to get Russel. Decline the option for 2016-2017 on Lance & waive him. Still gives them $10M+ to fill out the bench.

[Xiao Yao You]

Brandon Knight's a good player, but he's definitely not the guy they need imo. He has tunnel vision and has to be the primary playmaker to be effective, plus wants a deal paying him close to Bledsoe money. You guys could try to move Burks + Booker to Charlotte for Lance + Vonleh + '15 first rounder (esp if Charlotte misses playoffs). Use that pick + your own to try to get Russel. Decline the option for 2016-2017 on Lance & waive him. Still gives them $10M+ to fill out the bench.

Why would they want Lance or Vonleh or another first rounder? I'd be looking to trade the picks they have. It's playoffs or bust now as far as I'm concerned. They'd be in the hunt right now if they hadn't tanked the season away. They need a proven NBA pg if not two and a back-up center at the very least this off-season. They might be able to get away with Hood, Exum, Burke, Neto, Millsap and Ingles filling in the rest of the minutes. I looked at free agent pg's and Knight stands out. Does Phoenix want to pay two pg's big money? Knight could move to the 2 when and if Exum is ready. If there's someone else they can get in a trade I'm open to it. 2 years without an NBA pg is enough though. They can't wait on Exum and Burke when Gobert, Favors, Hayward, Burks and Booker are ready.

[ArbitraryWater]

Gobert's upside is greater. I haven't seen him as much this season, but you could just see dude's talent oozing during last summers FIBA tournament. There were defensive plays in that competition, against great NBA players, that made you hyped (look at the gif of Gasol getting his shit pushed back). Gobert has a unique blend of athleticism, smarts, and length; length as in wiry.

Dude is gonna be a faster/leaner version of Hibbert, with more intelligence.

How do you compare Hibbert to Gobert though? :oldlol:

Hibbert is trailer park trash.

[Xiao Yao You]

Hibbert is the toughest match-up Rudy has had.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How do you compare Hibbert to Gobert though? :oldlol:

Hibbert is trailer park trash.

:oldlol:

Well, when Roy was at his best, guy impacted the game as good anyone defensively (he's regressed considerably).

Gobert will provide similar impact on the defensive side, but have more skills in other areas as well.

[Alamо]

it's too bad Exum is a bust, otherwise the Jazz would have a really bright future.


There's really no way to tell if he's a bust or not yet. Players break out in their 2nd and 3rd years all the time. Not too mention that the Jazz are 7-2 post all-star break and Exum has started in each of those games and has been playing great defense. He has to be doing something right, otherwise Quin Snyder wouldn't call his number so much would he?

[SwishSquared]

Why would they want Lance or Vonleh or another first rounder? I'd be looking to trade the picks they have. It's playoffs or bust now as far as I'm concerned. They'd be in the hunt right now if they hadn't tanked the season away. They need a proven NBA pg if not two and a back-up center at the very least this off-season. They might be able to get away with Hood, Exum, Burke, Neto, Millsap and Ingles filling in the rest of the minutes. I looked at free agent pg's and Knight stands out. Does Phoenix want to pay two pg's big money? Knight could move to the 2 when and if Exum is ready. If there's someone else they can get in a trade I'm open to it. 2 years without an NBA pg is enough though. They can't wait on Exum and Burke when Gobert, Favors, Hayward, Burks and Booker are ready.
My personal opinion is that this year's FA class for point guards is weak and I wouldn't want to spend over ~$50M on Knight, Burks, Hayward, and Favors next season. Phoenix gave up a future Lakers first and 2 rookie-deal backups just to pay Brandon Knight big money this summer. Not to mention gave up a 6MoY type player in I. Thomas for an expiring and a late first to carve out more minutes for Knight. You have to max him out to get a shot at Phoenix not matching. They are def paying him because they shipped out Dragic (better than Knight or Thomas) due to not wanting to pay him in his 30s.

Knight's not a great initiator of the offense. Look at stats Milbuck has posted in various threads- nearly every rotation player on MIL was worse on offense with Knight.

My point of the trade proposal with Charlotte is that Utah, for roughly same money in '15'-16 (and much less going forward), could land D. Russel in the draft and a 3rd big with potential on a rookie deal in Vonleh. Lance would be *waived* the day he gets traded, like I stated in first post (he's salary filler). I know you want to make the playoffs, but why not get a young guard that can grow with the roster? I don't see Brandon Knight catapulting this team to playoff status next year, even with Utah's lotto pick, unless Phoenix and New Orleans regress more and San Antonio loses Pop, Duncan, and Manu (certainly possible). Sacramento will also make a playoff push this year by making some move this summer.

Russel-Exum-Hayward-Favors-Gobert
Burke-Hood-Millsap-Vonleh-Pleiss

vs.

Knight-Burks-Hayward-Favors-Gobert
Burke-Exum-Hood-Booker-Pleiss

One roster is significantly cheaper than the other.

[Xiao Yao You]

There's really no way to tell if he's a bust or not yet. Players break out in their 2nd and 3rd years all the time. Not too mention that the Jazz are 7-2 post all-star break and Exum has started in each of those games and has been playing great defense. He has to be doing something right, otherwise Quin Snyder wouldn't call his number so much would he?

Doesn't have much choice when Trey and a D-league call up or your other options. He should have been in the D-league this year and they should have had an proven NBA pg but that's no way to tank.


Knight's not a great initiator of the offense. Look at stats Milbuck has posted in various threads- nearly every rotation player on MIL was worse on offense with Knight.

He would be 2nd or 3rd option on Utah. Hayward, Burks and lately even Hood can initiate the offense.


My point of the trade proposal with Charlotte is that Utah, for roughly same money in '15'-16 (and much less going forward), could land D. Russel in the draft and a 3rd big with potential on a rookie deal in Vonleh.

They don't need another rookie. Need someone that can start on a playoff team.


Lance would be *waived* the day he gets traded, like I stated in first post (he's salary filler). I know you want to make the playoffs, but why not get a young guard that can grow with the roster?

Because they already have Exum, Hood, Burke and Neto.


I don't see Brandon Knight catapulting this team to playoff status next year, even with Utah's lotto pick, unless Phoenix and New Orleans regress more and San Antonio loses Pop, Duncan, and Manu (certainly possible). Sacramento will also make a playoff push this year by making some move this summer.

Jazz are arguably the best team in the league at the moment without an NBA caliber pg. They'd be in the playoff hunt this year if they'd had a pg or 2.


Russel-Exum-Hayward-Favors-Gobert
Burke-Hood-Millsap-Vonleh-Pleiss

vs.

Knight-Burks-Hayward-Favors-Gobert
Burke-Exum-Hood-Booker-Pleiss

One roster is significantly cheaper than the other.

They have the money to pay Knight after the Kanter trade. Doesn't sound like they think Pleiss is ready. Supposedly they are ready to pay Tomic's buyout finally. I'd like to see them bring Koufos back. Neto better be in the mix as well. He's a better fit than Burke from what I've seen and more ready than Exum.

[SwishSquared]

He would be 2nd or 3rd option on Utah. Hayward, Burks and lately even Hood can initiate the offense.

The point of the PG for this team would be to run the offense. You shouldn't pay a max-type contract to a guard, just to rely upon SGs & SFs to run the team. That's my philosophy. Knight has to have the ball to make himself effective (though he's a good 3 point shooter).

They don't need another rookie. Need someone that can start on a playoff team.
I'll disagree on going after an established player that's a combo guard vs. drafting somebody who can ideally play PG, especially since drafting Exum. I'd rather get Russel on rookie deal vs. overpay a guy like Knight. We'll agree to disagree on the merits of that plan, but it's good to hear your take on it.

Because they already have Exum, Hood, Burke and Neto.
I'm not giving up on Exum yet but he's 2 years away. Burke's a 6th man gunner-type and Hood shouldn't be more than a secondary playmaker. I don't know if Neto is def on the team next year (very well could be), so I won't say much about him. I feel they should make a trade or two to get the who I believe is the best PG in the draft.

Jazz are arguably the best team in the league at the moment without an NBA caliber pg. They'd be in the playoff hunt this year if they'd had a pg or 2.
That's a good point. That's why I think they should get Russel. I think he'd fit in very well, better than any FA point guard available this summer. Finally got to unleash Gobert post-Kanter trade :rockon:

They have the money to pay Knight after the Kanter trade. Doesn't sound like they think Pleiss is ready. Supposedly they are ready to pay Tomic's buyout finally. I'd like to see them bring Koufos back. Neto better be in the mix as well. He's a better fit than Burke from what I've seen and more ready than Exum.
I heard there was a snag getting Pleiss this season, but I'm unsure what will happen next year. I love Koufos as a backup- it'd be great to have him back in the fold. I think he's likely to search for more money and a bigger role this summer, so he may consider Utah.

They have the money to pay Knight after the Kanter trade. Doesn't sound like they think Pleiss is ready. Supposedly they are ready to pay Tomic's buyout finally. I'd like to see them bring Koufos back. Neto better be in the mix as well. He's a better fit than Burke from what I've seen and more ready than Exum.
It's a matter of cap management. If they decline Booker's option and max out Knight, that leaves < $5M in cap space + room exception + min contracts to fill out roster. If they pick up Booker's option and max out Knight, it leaves just room exception & min contracts to build up their bench (they can pay Pleiss & Neto w/e they want since they have their rights)

I still think they should probe a trade based around Burks to try to get Russel in the draft. That Charlotte trade would give them a complete starting 5, some of bench covered, and $10M + room exception to upgrade the rest of their roster. Plus in summer 2016 they'd have like $43M in cap space (assuming they don't give anybody multi-year deals this summer). That's at least $25M more than they'd have with Knight & Burks on roster.

[Xiao Yao You]

The point of the PG for this team would be to run the offense. You shouldn't pay a max-type contract to a guard, just to rely upon SGs & SFs to run the team. That's my philosophy.

It's not Snyder's. He wants guys that can handle the ball, pass, shoot, create, and defend. Hayward is their primary ball handler now. It's working but he needs some help. They need shooters. Another guy that can score, create and shoot would be nice. They need a lot more than they're getting from the 1 the past two seasons.


Knight has to have the ball to make himself effective (though he's a good 3 point shooter).

I'll disagree on going after an established player that's a combo guard vs. drafting somebody who can ideally play PG, especially since drafting Exum. I'd rather get Russel on rookie deal vs. overpay a guy like Knight. We'll agree to disagree on the merits of that plan, but it's good to hear your take on it.

I'm not giving up on Exum yet but he's 2 years away. Burke's a 6th man gunner-type

They have 3 young pg's. They need someone proven not another guy to develop. Burke might be a 6th man somewhere. He's still got a lot to prove. The fact that he has regressed this year doesn't give me that much hope for him. My guess is he'll be gone at some point down the line though. If Exum can hit the 3 he is at least a 3 and D player until the rest of his game comes around.


and Hood shouldn't be more than a secondary playmaker. I don't know if Neto is def on the team next year (very well could be), so I won't say much about him. I feel they should make a trade or two to get the who I believe is the best PG in the draft.

I'd guess after his showing in the World's they wanted him. Not sure what his contract status is. He should be there. He played better than Burke in their first summer league. He's a better defender. Willing passer. High IQ. He fits their team better.


That's a good point. That's why I think they should get Russel. I think he'd fit in very well, better than any FA point guard available this summer. Finally got to unleash Gobert post-Kanter trade :rockon:

When will he fit in better? The time for waiting and tanking should finally be over. It's time to compete.


I heard there was a snag getting Pleiss this season, but I'm unsure what will happen next year. I love Koufos as a backup- it'd be great to have him back in the fold. I think he's likely to search for more money and a bigger role this summer, so he may consider Utah.

Yep they should have at least mid level type of money for him.


It's a matter of cap management. If they decline Booker's option and max out Knight, that leaves < $5M in cap space + room exception + min contracts to fill out roster. If they pick up Booker's option and max out Knight, it leaves just room exception & min contracts to build up their bench (they can pay Pleiss & Neto w/e they want since they have their rights)

That's all they need. Millsap and Ingles aren't bad options to compete for the end of the rotation/end of the bench. Like most of the roster they need to consistently hit 3's to play though. Neto, Tomic or Koufos. Lindsey talked liked Pleiss wasn't ready. If he can't give them back-up minutes I'd leave him overseas. Maybe draft a young center to develop. That's the roster.


I still think they should probe a trade based around Burks to try to get Russel in the draft. That Charlotte trade would give them a complete starting 5, some of bench covered, and $10M + room exception to upgrade the rest of their roster. Plus in summer 2016 they'd have like $43M in cap space (assuming they don't give anybody multi-year deals this summer). That's at least $25M more than they'd have with Knight & Burks on roster.

The cap will go up after next season because of the new tv deal so they'll have plenty then but they might want to save it to give Rudy his 5 year max deal. Who is taking Burks spot? I'm not convinced he and Hayward are a good fit but they need to at least see if they can make it work and he has to prove himself before anyone wants his contract. He was a bit disappointing this year. Hopefully it was just his shoulder bothering him.

[SwishSquared]

We can keep this convo going a long time, but I don't want to derail the thread too much, but here's what I think:

It's not Snyder's. He wants guys that can handle the ball, pass, shoot, create, and defend. Hayward is their primary ball handler now. It's working but he needs some help. They need shooters. Another guy that can score, create and shoot would be nice. They need a lot more than they're getting from the 1 the past two seasons.
Still don't think Knight's the right guy here. I don't mean to keep belaboring that point, but he's not the "established" guy you want to fill that role. Since he's played with another (overrated) initiator in Phoenix, his numbers have really plummeted. He lacks offensive awareness in where to hit guys to put them into positions to score. I suggested moving up in draft via trades (not a tanking move) to get the guy who has shooting (off dribble or catch), passing, and playmaking skills. He's 6'5", so he's actually bigger than Knight. I think he's a much better PG out-of-the gate than Exum or Burke. At his size, he can sufficiently guard PGs, or at least funnel them to the help. He's nearly as big as Exum. I think he can contribute Day 1. He's being compared to Harden (minus the flopping) with Curry's frame/build.

When will he fit in better? The time for waiting and tanking should finally be over. It's time to compete.
That's a legit question to ask but given his floor-spacing abilities, he should be able to contribute right away. He's like the anti-Exum, in that we get lots of video on him and he can shoot/distribute, but isn't billed a crazy athlete. I don't see how getting a top 4 talent is a tanking move. It seems aggressive to me, in a wise way. What happens when Phoenix matches a big offer sheet for Knight? What's the backup plan? The guys overseas may very well be that backup plan, but it's not guaranteed they come over.

Yep they should have at least mid level type of money for him.If you sign Knight & decline Booker's option, there won't even be mid-level money for any FA. Guys won't take less to play in Utah imo on team that's not a bonafide contender. I'd manage cap differently then throw max money at a guy who won't live up to the deal.

That's all they need. Millsap and Ingles aren't bad options to compete for the end of the rotation/end of the bench. Like most of the roster they need to consistently hit 3's to play though. Neto, Tomic or Koufos. Lindsey talked liked Pleiss wasn't ready. If he can't give them back-up minutes I'd leave him overseas. Maybe draft a young center to develop. That's the roster.
I don't know if that's a core that's good enough for the future honestly. I expect Exum to make big leaps forward, but next year's ceiling on that team is 1st round exit. Where do they go from there? Their draft picks won't be as good and they'll have cap space in 2016, but wouldn't they be just filling bench roles then if Knight-Burks-Hayward-Favors-Gobert are the starters? They will improve, but will they be title contenders? I'd bet not.

The cap will go up after next season because of the new tv deal so they'll have plenty then but they might want to save it to give Rudy his 5 year max deal. Who is taking Burks spot? I'm not convinced he and Hayward are a good fit but they need to at least see if they can make it work and he has to prove himself before anyone wants his contract. He was a bit disappointing this year. Hopefully it was just his shoulder bothering him.D. Russel would take Burks' spot, as I said, he'd play alongside Exum in the starting lineup. Burks is what Charlotte was hoping Lance would be. That's why I targeted them in the trade proposal. They were interested in Joe Johnson just for shooting. Burks should fit nicely playing alongside Kemba & MKG on the wing. I think his shoulder was a hindrance and if he's healthy, he'll bounce back. My point is why pay those 4 guys $50M for 1 season and just say, well cap will rise, so who cares? I think that starting 5 doesn't have a title contending backcourt and that's why I wouldn't commit 8 figures annually to 4 of those 5 guys for next couple years, and then pay Gobert max money when he is due for a new deal.

It's been good talking Utah hoops with you, man, and we always end up with huge posts when he chat haha. I don't want to distract too much from the topic of thread, so I think that'll be my last post.

FWIW Gobert is the more important piece going forward. Favors is playing better than I imagined, and I think he still has room to grow, but Gobert's defense is game-changing. Unreal draft day trade.

[Xiao Yao You]

We can keep this convo going a long time, but I don't want to derail the thread too much, but here's what I think:

Still don't think Knight's the right guy here. I don't mean to keep belaboring that point, but he's not the "established" guy you want to fill that role. Since he's played with another (overrated) initiator in Phoenix, his numbers have really plummeted. He lacks offensive awareness in where to hit guys to put them into positions to score. I suggested moving up in draft via trades (not a tanking move) to get the guy who has shooting (off dribble or catch), passing, and playmaking skills. He's 6'5", so he's actually bigger than Knight. I think he's a much better PG out-of-the gate than Exum or Burke. At his size, he can sufficiently guard PGs, or at least funnel them to the help. He's nearly as big as Exum. I think he can contribute Day 1. He's being compared to Harden (minus the flopping) with Curry's frame/build.

Contribute or start on a playoff team at 19 or whatever he is? They need a starter and a back-up right now. They have neither.


That's a legit question to ask but given his floor-spacing abilities, he should be able to contribute right away. He's like the anti-Exum, in that we get lots of video on him and he can shoot/distribute, but isn't billed a crazy athlete. I don't see how getting a top 4 talent is a tanking move. It seems aggressive to me, in a wise way.

Tanking is going a 3rd straight year without an NBA caliber pg. The return of John Lucas III? :lol


What happens when Phoenix matches a big offer sheet for Knight? What's the backup plan?

Haven't looked past him. Another 19 year old doesn't seem like the way to go at this stage though. Lindsey has already talked about possibly making a trade with the assets and cap space they have. Lawson? He seems to have issues. It's a deep position in the league and one they need to fill.


The guys overseas may very well be that backup plan, but it's not guaranteed they come over.

Not sure he's a starter but I think he's better than Burke. He might be a rotation player anyway. Burke probably becomes expendable.


If you sign Knight & decline Booker's option, there won't even be mid-level money for any FA.

They are supposed to be 20 million under the cap if they don't pick up Booker's option. So 15 million if they do. They would have their exceptions to spend after that to sign Koufos or Tomic.


Guys won't take less to play in Utah imo on team that's not a bonafide contender. I'd manage cap differently then throw max money at a guy who won't live up to the deal.

I don't know if that's a core that's good enough for the future honestly.

They're playing as good as anyone right now with big holes in their roster.


I expect Exum to make big leaps forward, but next year's ceiling on that team is 1st round exit. Where do they go from there? Their draft picks won't be as good and they'll have cap space in 2016, but wouldn't they be just filling bench roles then if Knight-Burks-Hayward-Favors-Gobert are the starters? They will improve, but will they be title contenders? I'd bet not.

D. Russel would take Burks' spot, as I said, he'd play alongside Exum in the starting lineup.

Burks was one of the best bench players in the league last season. Exum should be in the D-league right now. Another 19 year old and Exum is getting them to the playoffs?


Burks is what Charlotte was hoping Lance would be. That's why I targeted them in the trade proposal. They were interested in Joe Johnson just for shooting. Burks should fit nicely playing alongside Kemba & MKG on the wing. I think his shoulder was a hindrance and if he's healthy, he'll bounce back. My point is why pay those 4 guys $50M for 1 season and just say, well cap will rise, so who cares? I think that starting 5 doesn't have a title contending backcourt and that's why I wouldn't commit 8 figures annually to 4 of those 5 guys for next couple years, and then pay Gobert max money when he is due for a new deal.

It's been good talking Utah hoops with you, man, and we always end up with huge posts when he chat haha. I don't want to distract too much from the topic of thread, so I think that'll be my last post.

FWIW Gobert is the more important piece going forward. Favors is playing better than I imagined, and I think he still has room to grow, but Gobert's defense is game-changing. Unreal draft day trade.

Makes up for the shitty trade for Trey! And than they got Neto at the end of the 2nd and he looks like a player too.

[SwishSquared]

Alright, I came back to say a few more things. It's clear, Xiao Yao You, that you believe this team is a playoff team next season, as long as they upgrade at PG. You think that getting a guy with some experience is best and it should be somebody who fits the system (perfectly sensible). You think Utah could even get a guy on a "mini" max deal and still have enough to sign guys who are worth at least MLE.

You want Brandon Knight, somebody who Milwaukee readily gave up in a playoff season to get back a rookie backup PG, a young PG who's an awful shooter, and an energy big. Their ball movement has improved tangibly since he left. You said Snyder's system requires guys to pass. Knight doesn't do it enough. You said that Hayward & Burks can handle the rock enough to make the PG's ball-handling and playmaking duties diminished, yet are willing to pay a starting PG max money to be a system cog. You don't have a real back-up plan (other than have belief that guys playing overseas come to the NBA for diminished roles) to chasing a RFA that his team will match any offer, yet scoff at improving through the draft, when building through the draft and acquiring young pieces through trades has built this team.

If you sign a guy to a mini-max & don't decline Booker, then the only exception available to the Jazz this summer, aside from minimum contracts, is the room exception. That's the contract Mike Miller has right now. If you do decline Booker, then you get < $5M starting salary (aka < MLE) for 1 guy + room exception that can be split amongst more than 1 player. You won't get a player of Koufos value for less than the MLE. You are only looking at what's on the books and disregarding the cap hold that your draft pick and empty roster spots accrue.

Also, if you believe that Burke & Exum are near the caliber of polished player that Russel has shown in college, then you are highly mistaken. He can shoot, dribble, and pass, unlike Exum, and has great size, unlike Burke. Russel may bust, but moving up to take him in a draft isn't a tanking move. He's more of a PG than Knight is. Same that maxing out a below average starting PG isn't a move that will make you a contender.

Overall, I respect your basketball opinions, but I believe that you have too much faith in overpaying unnecessary players as a means to contention. Yes, the Jazz may make the playoffs next year, with a better shot with an upgrade at PG. Do they need to cap themselves out to get there? Perhaps not- well, my belief is they don't need to. Snyder's being creative to make up for lack of a real PG. You can make moves to possibly get one in the draft and cost less than a third of Knight per season. That's wise roster construction in my opinion.

Like I said, let's agree to disagree on where they should go. I'll happily admit being wrong if proven so.

[Xiao Yao You]

Alright, I came back to say a few more things. It's clear, Xiao Yao You, that you believe this team is a playoff team next season, as long as they upgrade at PG.

They look like one right now without a pg.


You think that getting a guy with some experience is best and it should be somebody who fits the system (perfectly sensible). You think Utah could even get a guy on a "mini" max deal and still have enough to sign guys who are worth at least MLE.

You want Brandon Knight, somebody who Milwaukee readily gave up in a playoff season to get back a rookie backup PG, a young PG who's an awful shooter, and an energy big. Their ball movement has improved tangibly since he left. You said Snyder's system requires guys to pass. Knight doesn't do it enough.

If he can be a 2nd or 3rd option and hit open shots he'd be something they don't have now.


You said that Hayward & Burks can handle the rock enough to make the PG's ball-handling and playmaking duties diminished, yet are willing to pay a starting PG max money to be a system cog. You don't have a real back-up plan (other than have belief that guys playing overseas come to the NBA for diminished roles) to chasing a RFA that his team will match any offer, yet scoff at improving through the draft, when building through the draft and acquiring young pieces through trades has built this team.

It has built the team but at some point you play to win or else you're just the Clippers of old.


If you sign a guy to a mini-max & don't decline Booker, then the only exception available to the Jazz this summer, aside from minimum contracts, is the room exception. That's the contract Mike Miller has right now. If you do decline Booker, then you get < $5M starting salary (aka < MLE) for 1 guy + room exception that can be split amongst more than 1 player. You won't get a player of Koufos value for less than the MLE. You are only looking at what's on the books and disregarding the cap hold that your draft pick and empty roster spots accrue.

Also, if you believe that Burke & Exum are near the caliber of polished player that Russel has shown in college, then you are highly mistaken.

Didn't say that. I have my doubts rather any 19 year old can step into a playoff caliber team and contribute. They don't need to get any younger. They need some proven vets at some point.


He can shoot, dribble, and pass, unlike Exum, and has great size, unlike Burke. Russel may bust, but moving up to take him in a draft isn't a tanking move.

Not having an NBA caliber pg for the 3rd straight year is. Gobert has made it impossible for them not to be competitive unless he gets hurts.


He's more of a PG than Knight is. Same that maxing out a below average starting PG isn't a move that will make you a contender.

Overall, I respect your basketball opinions, but I believe that you have too much faith in overpaying unnecessary players as a means to contention. Yes, the Jazz may make the playoffs next year, with a better shot with an upgrade at PG. Do they need to cap themselves out to get there? Perhaps not- well, my belief is they don't need to. Snyder's being creative to make up for lack of a real PG.

If by creative you mean playing Gobert than yes he is creative. Just like Stockton/Malone made Layden/Sloan look good Rudy has made him look good.


You can make moves to possibly get one in the draft and cost less than a third of Knight per season. That's wise roster construction in my opinion.

Having 4 young pg's makes no sense to me. They've already mentioned that in regards to Neto not being here. Only young guy I can see drafting right now would be a center to develop in Idaho where Exum and Hood should have been. Jazz need some proven vets at the one and back-up 5 minimum. Who that is I don't know but it needs to get done.


Like I said, let's agree to disagree on where they should go. I'll happily admit being wrong if proven so.

[SwishSquared]

They look like one right now without a pg.Never said they didn't, was just stating your position.

If he can be a 2nd or 3rd option and hit open shots he'd be something they don't have now.If continuing to throw 8 figure (disregarding he'd be a max guy) annual contracts at guys to "be third options" is what you want to do each off-season, fine, but that's a reckless way to manage cap and build a team. ~$55M per year to Knight/Burks/Hayward/Favors is stupid, honestly. Weren't Burks and Favors supposed to be the 2nd and 3rd options? You want to see more of Burks next to Hayward, but want to still spend money when you could instead invest in developing younger guys too. What if Burks trade value sinks next season, also, after spending lots on a new PG? Spending money too quickly (along with wasting picks) is the mistake New Orleans made building around Davis and now they're a treadmill team.

It has built the team but at some point you play to win or else you're just the Clippers of old.Agreed but the Clippers of old also overpaid the wrong guys and it got them nowhere. Also reference the Knicks since Riley left.

Not having an NBA caliber pg for the 3rd straight year is. Gobert has made it impossible for them not to be competitive unless he gets hurts.A guy like Knight is a below average starting PG, something both Exum and Burke currently are. I'd rather not pay somebody like that a max if he's below average at filling his position. Again, he made most of MIL's rotation players worse on offense in the East and you think he'd make a big difference on a potential Western playoff team.

If by creative you mean playing Gobert than yes he is creative. Just like Stockton/Malone made Layden/Sloan look good Rudy has made him look good.
Give your coach some credit. He played him once they got rid of overrated Kanter, whom he had to coddle since he wouldn't accept coming off the bench as a third big. Corbin was a disaster last year with "no real PG" and Hayward's play suffered as a result. Another year, "no real PG," and the team is playing better due to his coaching. Take Corbin back if you don't think Snyder's making an imprint on the team.

Having 4 young pg's makes no sense to me. They've already mentioned that in regards to Neto not being here. Only young guy I can see drafting right now would be a center to develop in Idaho where Exum and Hood should have been. Jazz need some proven vets at the one and back-up 5 minimum. Who that is I don't know but it needs to get done.You have 2 young PGs, one you'd rather get rid of (Burke) and one you think belongs in D-League (Exum). Just because you have somebody's rights doesn't mean they'll come play (See Saric & Mirotic, amongst recent examples) right away. Exum is more a SG right now since he's a below average shooter and dribbler. He was also advertised as playing both G positions. Burke's ceiling is a backup guy. Russel, in my opinion, can start and play better than both of those guys from Day 1; I also think he can run a team better than Knight. You also say Hood can run the offense- and would even if Knight were signed- why not let him do so from SG while other young guys get minutes? Knight averages less than 1APG more than Hayward for their careers. He's not a PG. He's an undersized SG who can fill minutes at PG. Textbook combo guard.

By the way, your plan leaves little $ to bring in other vets (basically 1 guy above vet min). My plan allows them to pay for a good vet backup C (Koufos) and a vet backup PG, among other pieces. Your plan to contention isn't the only valid path, or even the most sensible. But it is one path, same as my plan would be. Accept that.

[Xiao Yao You]

Never said they didn't, was just stating your position.
If continuing to throw 8 figure (disregarding he'd be a max guy) annual contracts at guys to "be third options" is what you want to do each off-season, fine, but that's a reckless way to manage cap and build a team. ~$55M per year to Knight/Burks/Hayward/Favors is stupid, honestly. Weren't Burks and Favors supposed to be the 2nd and 3rd options?

Remains to be seen rather Burks is even a starter or just a 6th man.


You want to see more of Burks next to Hayward, but want to still spend money when you could instead invest in developing younger guys too.

They're already developing Burke, Exum, Hood and Jerrett. Add Neto and a young center to that and I'd say that's plenty of development.


What if Burks trade value sinks next season, also, after spending lots on a new PG?

I'd guess his trade value isn't very high right now.


Spending money too quickly (along with wasting picks) is the mistake New Orleans made building around Davis and now they're a treadmill team.

Well giving Gordon max was stupid with the injuries he has had and had when they signed him. They're playing pretty good.


Agreed but the Clippers of old also overpaid the wrong guys and it got them nowhere.

The Clippers had high lottery picks every year and didn't keep them.


Also reference the Knicks since Riley left.

Again they signed an injured Amare and a one dimensional Carmelo to max deals.


A guy like Knight is a below average starting PG, something both Exum and Burke currently are.

Knight was a borderline all-star. Exum and Burke are D-leaguers. Big difference.


I'd rather not pay somebody like that a max if he's below average at filling his position. Again, he made most of MIL's rotation players worse on offense in the East and you think he'd make a big difference on a potential Western playoff team.

Milwaukee was a playoff team when he was traded and he was their #1 option.


Give your coach some credit. He played him once they got rid of overrated Kanter

Why wasn't he playing him before that? How is Kanter overrated?


, whom he had to coddle since he wouldn't accept coming off the bench as a third big.

Can't blame him. Why not Favors off the bench? You think he'd have accepted that?


Corbin was a disaster last year with "no real PG" and Hayward's play suffered as a result. Another year, "no real PG," and the team is playing better due to his coaching. Take Corbin back if you don't think Snyder's making an imprint on the team.

They sucked before Rudy changed their fortunes.


You have 2 young PGs, one you'd rather get rid of (Burke)

Didn't say that. He has 6th man potential. But with Exum and Neto not sure there's going to be room for him in the long run. Next year guys are going to have to actually earn their minutes.


and one you think belongs in D-League (Exum). Just because you have somebody's rights doesn't mean they'll come play (See Saric & Mirotic, amongst recent examples) right away.

Neto wanted to play. He had no buyout this past off-season.


Exum is more a SG right now since he's a below average shooter and dribbler. He was also advertised as playing both G positions. Burke's ceiling is a backup guy. Russel, in my opinion, can start and play better than both of those guys from Day 1

Maybe. Not really saying much though. Is he better than Burks right now? Is he good enough to play on a playof team? Doubt it.


; I also think he can run a team better than Knight. You also say Hood can run the offense- and would even if Knight were signed- why not let him do so from SG while other young guys get minutes?

Hood still has to prove he's a rotation player too. He's looked like it since he came back after the all-star break. Are his feet going to hold up this time?


Knight averages less than 1APG more than Hayward for their careers. He's not a PG. He's an undersized SG who can fill minutes at PG. Textbook combo guard.

Which makes lots of sense for this team. When Exum is ready he can play the 2.


By the way, your plan leaves little $ to bring in other vets (basically 1 guy above vet min).

That's all they need. A back-up center.


My plan allows them to pay for a good vet backup C (Koufos) and a vet backup PG, among other pieces. Your plan to contention isn't the only valid path, or even the most sensible. But it is one path, same as my plan would be. Accept that.

They need a starting pg though.

[SwishSquared]

Remains to be seen rather Burks is even a starter or just a 6th man.Pay a 6th man $10.5M per year? That makes sense? That's why I proposed trading him to a team in a weaker conference that needs him + Booker more than than their current draft pick + an expiring contract.

They're already developing Burke, Exum, Hood and Jerrett. Add Neto and a young center to that and I'd say that's plenty of development.Jerrett was a throw-in the Kanter trade. He worked out for you guys last summer and that's why you chose him over other filler. He's a fringe NBA player.

The Clippers had high lottery picks every year and didn't keep them. I meant paying guys who weren't worth their deals, like B-Diddy. But they did do that, yes.

Again they signed an injured Amare and a one dimensional Carmelo to max deals.
They paid Amar'e too much but he was an MVP candidate before he got hurt in the latter half of his first year there. Everybody knew it was an overpay, in both the case of signing him and trading for Melo (then re-signing him). My point was that you'd be overpaying Burks and Knight in consecutive summers for little logic/reason. Did you feel the Jazz gave Favors too rich of a deal? Just curious. New Orleans rushed to pay guys and give up assets to acquire pieces (re-signing Gordon, trading for Jrue & Asik, signing Evans, etc) and they're a borderline playoff team that most likely is lotto team again

Knight was a borderline all-star. Exum and Burke are D-leaguers. Big difference.
Knight got to pound the ball since he got to Milwaukee. There's a reason they tried to sign Jeff Teague even when they got back Knight in the Jennings trade. Knight has fewer assists & much lower assist rate with higher usage rate than Teague. FWIW his usage rate in Milwaukee is more than 12% greater than CP3's career usage rate. Knight's had inflated stats due to ball domination, although his assists are very low for having the ball so much and having 2 guys play significant minutes that shoot > 40% from downtown on the wings in Middleton & Dudley. Add in Giannis' ability to cut to basket and you have to wonder how much of a PG he actually is...

Milwaukee was a playoff team when he was traded and he was their #1 option.
It's acceptable for the #1 option on a playoff team to essentially negatively impact his teammates' offense? His teammates played better, for most part, on offense when he was on the bench. How is not that alarming to you that they gave him up in middle of a playoff chase to acquire a rookie PG (who's an unknown at NBA level basically), an offensively-struggling PG, and a backup big man. They felt they'd be better off without their best scorer because they didn't want to pay him a big contract.

Why wasn't he playing him before that? How is Kanter overrated? I answered this in the following sentence (Kanter & his camp way overvalued his abilities)


Why wasn't he playing him before that? How is Kanter overrated?He's one of the worst big men according to RPM. He's a worse defensive player than Favors is an offensive player. That's why Favors started. They had to start Kanter to pacify him, even though he was a blackhole on offense and turnstile on defense. The Kanter/Gobert lineup was outscored in all their minutes together, by a not insignificant margin. Why start Kanter at that point?

Didn't say that. He has 6th man potential. But with Exum and Neto not sure there's going to be room for him in the long run. Next year guys are going to have to actually earn their minutes.There's nothing to suggest Neto being a better PG than D. Russell as rookies in the NBA. You also didn't give a ringing endorsement of Burke. He's not untouchable and didn't you say that he's not a real NBA PG? You want to continue to carry 2 "non NBA PGs" on this roster? And add in Neto and potentially sign a FA point guard?

Neto wanted to play. He had no buyout this past off-season.That's great that he was eager, but is he a starter? Will he be better than Burke as a backup? He's not an NBA vet...Mirotic wanted to play, too, but waited for the right money. Saric chased some money & PT before he gave himself an out to come over.

Maybe. Not really saying much though. Is he better than Burks right now? Is he good enough to play on a playof team? Doubt it.You doubt that a SG earning 8 figures next year is a starter, let alone on a playoff team. Russell would be the best PG next year on the Jazz, it's just reality. Unless Neto comes and destroys that's the most likely outcome.

Hood still has to prove he's a rotation player too. He's looked like it since he came back after the all-star break. Are his feet going to hold up this time?So before Hood is good enough to initiate some offense to make up for a maxed-out Knight being bad at that, but there's doubt if he's a rotation player? I have concerns about his health, too, but I'd develop him than accelerate a rebuild by bringing in vets.

Which makes lots of sense for this team. When Exum is ready he can play the 2.Players with significant usage rates with low assist percentages and low APG who barely get more assists than a wing with good playmaking skills should not be maxed out. Exum and Burke combined can get 5APG. Knight's shooting would help, but so would Russell's.

That's all they need. A back-up center.
Jazz, if they let go of Booker, wouldn't even have the money to pay a guy like Kaman (got $5M this past season) under your plan. If they retain Booker, under your cap management, they wouldn't even be able to sign a guy like Jason Smith (he got $3.3M this year). Not a whole lot of good vet big man available for that small amount of money.

They need a starting pg though.My whole contention for that plan would be moving up in draft to acquire Russell, the new starting PG. He would be in the starting lineup.

I'm sorry, but your argument is not stacking up. There's not a good starting PG available this summer imo that is worth the Jazz paying big money to acquire him. If Utah gets a PG this summer, it should be through draft and I clearly explained how to get him and how that leaves enough cap space to strengthen the rest of their bench.

[Xiao Yao You]

Pay a 6th man $10.5M per year? That makes sense?

No it doesn't next year which is why I said they need to try to make it work but they've already paid him. After next season it might not be much same with the max deals. And if Hood is starting cheaply who cares?


That's why I proposed trading him to a team in a weaker conference that needs him + Booker more than than their current draft pick + an expiring contract.

OK so now we need to replace Booker.


Jerrett was a throw-in the Kanter trade. He worked out for you guys last summer and that's why you chose him over other filler. He's a fringe NBA player.

He's only 21 and has stretch 4 potential which they want and only Booker does after the trade of Kanter.


I meant paying guys who weren't worth their deals, like B-Diddy. But they did do that, yes.

They paid Amar'e too much but he was an MVP candidate before he got hurt in the latter half of his first year there. Everybody knew it was an overpay, in both the case of signing him and trading for Melo (then re-signing him). My point was that you'd be overpaying Burks and Knight in consecutive summers for little logic/reason.

Remains to be seen if Alec is overpaid. Might be a great deal. At the moment he is at least their 3rd option. A natural scorer. He gets to the line with the best of them. He was their best 3 point shooter. He's got defensive potential.


Did you feel the Jazz gave Favors too rich of a deal?

When he signed yes. Now it's looking decent.


Just curious. New Orleans rushed to pay guys and give up assets to acquire pieces (re-signing Gordon, trading for Jrue & Asik, signing Evans, etc) and they're a borderline playoff team that most likely is lotto team again

We'll see. With AD they should be in the picture for years to come.


Knight got to pound the ball since he got to Milwaukee. There's a reason they tried to sign Jeff Teague even when they got back Knight in the Jennings trade. Knight has fewer assists & much lower assist rate with higher usage rate than Teague. FWIW his usage rate in Milwaukee is more than 12% greater than CP3's career usage rate. Knight's had inflated stats due to ball domination, although his assists are very low for having the ball so much and having 2 guys play significant minutes that shoot > 40% from downtown on the wings in Middleton & Dudley. Add in Giannis' ability to cut to basket and you have to wonder how much of a PG he actually is...

He's a combo guard that can score and hit shots. Haven't argued that. Hopefully he can defend better than Trey.


It's acceptable for the #1 option on a playoff team to essentially negatively impact his teammates' offense? His teammates played better, for most part, on offense when he was on the bench. How is not that alarming to you that they gave him up in middle of a playoff chase to acquire a rookie PG (who's an unknown at NBA level basically), an offensively-struggling PG, and a backup big man. They felt they'd be better off without their best scorer because they didn't want to pay him a big contract.

Makes sense that Kidd would want a guy more like him running the team.


I answered this in the following sentence (Kanter & his camp way overvalued his abilities)

He's one of the worst big men according to RPM. He's a worse defensive player than Favors is an offensive player. That's why Favors started.

Favors started because he is supposed to be the man and makes 12 million a year.


They had to start Kanter to pacify him, even though he was a blackhole on offense and turnstile on defense. The Kanter/Gobert lineup was outscored in all their minutes together, by a not insignificant margin. Why start Kanter at that point?

So Rudy's scoring has nothing to do with that? Enes put up over 20/10 as a starter next to Rudy. He is younger and less experienced than Favors. Has stretch 4/5 potential which again they want.


There's nothing to suggest Neto being a better PG than D. Russell as rookies in the NBA.

The fact that he has been playing professionally and is older and has already looked better than Burke gives me hope he can give them rotation minutes next year. They need to bring him over and see regardless. Next year the tanking is over. Time to compete. I know nothing of Russell other than what you tell me but the Jazz need to get older not younger.


You also didn't give a ringing endorsement of Burke. He's not untouchable

No one is untouchable.


and didn't you say that he's not a real NBA PG?

Don't remember that. He hasn't proven he is yet put he's only 22.


You want to continue to carry 2 "non NBA PGs" on this roster? And add in Neto and potentially sign a FA point guard?

They have a D-league team to develop guys. If Trey ends up on the bench he can be dealt. Exum can give minutes if he can hit the 3 consistently with his D. Burke needs to be able to score and shoot a higher % consistently to be a 6th man. Not something he has shown. He's looked better off the bench but still shoots like AI.


That's great that he was eager, but is he a starter?

Not expecting him to be at least right away. He looks like a player to me though.


Will he be better than Burke as a backup?

I think so. Won't know for sure until they bring him over. Again the tanking is done. No reason not to now.


He's not an NBA vet...Mirotic wanted to play, too, but waited for the right money. Saric chased some money & PT before he gave himself an out to come over.

Those guys are top prospects. Neto was drafted at the end of the 2nd round.


You doubt that a SG earning 8 figures next year is a starter, let alone on a playoff team.

He didn't look like one this year for whatever reason. He and Hayward are too similar as well. He's proven he's a great bench piece already though.


Russell would be the best PG next year on the Jazz, it's just reality.

Ok great but is he an NBA starter at 19 on a playoff team. I doubt it. Why not the guy that's been playing in China? He's at least played against men.


Unless Neto comes and destroys that's the most likely outcome.

Neto defends. A 19 year old that's been playing zone will defend?


So before Hood is good enough to initiate some offense to make up for a maxed-out Knight being bad at that

He is potentially. He needs to hit the 3 consistently to be in the rotation.


, but there's doubt if he's a rotation player? I have concerns about his health, too, but I'd develop him than accelerate a rebuild by bringing in vets.

They've already got Millsap and Ingles who he needs to play better than not to mention Exum. I'd send him to Idaho if he's not ready for the rotation. Lately he's looking like he might be good enough to play next year. The D-league is there for a reason. I believe guys should earn their minutes in the league not be given them just because they have potential. It's one thing to do it on a tanking team but on a playoff caliber team it has to stop.


Players with significant usage rates with low assist percentages and low APG who barely get more assists than a wing with good playmaking skills should not be maxed out. Exum and Burke combined can get 5APG.

Can they hit a 3 consistently though? Can Burke defend anyone?


Knight's shooting would help, but so would Russell's.

Knight is proven and in the same age group as their big 3. Russell might be something.


Jazz, if they let go of Booker, wouldn't even have the money to pay a guy like Kaman (got $5M this past season) under your plan. If they retain Booker, under your cap management, they wouldn't even be able to sign a guy like Jason Smith (he got $3.3M this year). Not a whole lot of good vet big man available for that small amount of money

My whole contention for that plan would be moving up in draft to acquire Russell, the new starting PG. He would be in the starting lineup.

I know your plan. I don't want an unproven 19 year old starting.


I'm sorry, but your argument is not stacking up.

And neither is yours as far as I'm concerned.


There's not a good starting PG available this summer imo that is worth the Jazz paying big money to acquire him. If Utah gets a PG this summer, it should be through draft and I clearly explained how to get him and how that leaves enough cap space to strengthen the rest of their bench.

So they can't make a trade? It has to be a 4th unproven NBA pg?

[Milbuck]

Good god, I'm not even gonna try to read every bit of your guys' posts lol. Looks like great discussion though. But I'm getting the main point that Xiao wants Knight on the Jazz?

If so...dude...please trust Swish on this one. If you want Gobert and Favors to ever develop into high level offensive players, and Hayward to fully blossom into the star he should be..and then Exum, etc...you should stay away from Knight at all costs.

He is a very talented player but he needs a very, very specific situation to be effective in. You cannot just throw him in with other young, talented players and expect him to work well with them, help their development. He is a pseudo PG who is convinced he's actually a PG. He has a severe lack of natural court vision, which is something you just cannot teach or learn. He has a scorer's mindset through and through, which is extremely tough to break out of. He's average sized for the PG spot so it's not like he's getting any height-related compensation for his lack of vision. He lacks literally every critical skill that a true floor general and facilitator needs to have. And he's not good at all defensively, which is something more obvious now that he's not another cog in our scrambling defense anymore, and has to actually show what he can do himself. He flat out does not make players around him better. I can pull up the numbers if you want, but literally all but a couple players on our roster shot substantially worse with Knight on the floor.

His sole value on a team with young developing players is the ability to create something out of nothing when your offense is absolutely desperate for something, anything. Which is a great skill to have, and is the reason so many people this year were hyping him for the all star game, and were under the impression that he was the reason we were doing so well...when in reality it was a collective effort of offensive overachieving, intense defense, effort, etc. But the reality, and the biggest problem, is that he is completely incapable of knowing when to do this, he treats every possession in this way. A true PG knows exactly when to harness their shot creating ability. Knight has no grasp of this whatsoever. He will dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble some more, and then either throw it off for a TERRIBLE shot for a teammate, or chuck up an incredible low percentage shot for himself.

If you need a scorer, look elsewhere. Because Knight will make players on your team worse. If this was a veteran team with established players and a clear-cut system that harnesses Knight's abilities perfectly..like Ellis on the Mavs..by all means go for it. But Utah is just not at that stage yet, Knight is going to dominate the identity of your team and hold back the growth of all your up and coming players.

[Xiao Yao You]

OK so Lawson? Certainly don't want anther 19 year old.

[Xiao Yao You]

Beverley 3 and D!

[SwishSquared]

Rofl this thread is destroyed. Down the rabbit hole I go...

Look, you don't like my argument when my whole premise has been go for one last high draft pick by making trades. To do so would require waiving a guy with $9.7M/1 year left on deal. In return, you would net a young big in Vonleh to be the backup PF. Vonleh was billed a stretch four. He's got a 7'4" wingspan, too. The other part of this deal would be moving up in draft to snag Russell. There would be plenty cap space to sign a guy like Koufos. That's how you replace Booker. I said that several posts ago. Please actually consider a post and digest the whole thing before you try to trash it.

Burks was bad defensively this season and if he's a bench player making 8 figures, that's terrible cap management. Starting Hood over him means you made a mistake paying Burks all that money, which will only further decrease his trade value imo. I know you expect contention, but you have to manage assets properly, and cap space should be utilized properly in a non-glamorous market like Utah. That's why I even brought up trading him because you could get a new starting PG, a backup PF, and have leftover money to get vets at backup G, SF, and C, if you want.

Neto was an end of draft pick, so it can't be stated that he can hold down the backup PG spot or starting spot better than Burke, Exum, or a rookie like Russell. Neto will still be an NBA rookie and even a top end talent like Mirotic has gone through struggles in his first year. Mudiay, the young PG to which you referred, is strong, explosive, and has great court vision. His jumpshot is awful and he shot 57% from the line in China. He can certainly pass and defend, but won't knock down shots. That's why I said Russell would be great if you move up to get a PG this draft. I know you don't want a teenaged rookie running the show, but my whole argument has been this year's FA point guard class is bad and the draft is a better avenue. Now, trading for an established PG is a different scenario, and if you get the right one, then the Jazz would be well on their way towards a playoff berth. We argued signing Knight vs. drafting Russell, not trades. I simply offered an alternate, less expensive route.

You said that Utah has gone 2 years with no real NBA PGs (I won't argue this- offensively you need a big upgrade). By saying this, you say Burke isn't a real NBA PG, along with Exum (but we agree Exum's a keeper for now), and that you'd like to bring Neto into the fold to get better production. So you shouldn't have denied saying you don't want to continue keeping "2 non NBA PGs" on roster while signing Neto and a vet starting PG. I don't doubt Neto can defend, but how will he defend NBA athletes? There's no proof he can/will, so you can't use that definitively against rookie PGs coming in from college. That's just using proper logic.

The Kanter/Gobert pairing allowed Kanter to put up great "counting stats," but the team was outscored and overall played poorly. That's why Kanter got moved. But who cares if a guy can score but the team gives up more points than they put up, especially on a team looking to take strides towards the playoffs? Sure, Favors probably started due to his recent contract extension. Favors/Gobert has been the much better pairing and is more sensible to give the most minutes. Kanter is really bad defensively, offensive improvements notwithstanding. His awful D was a big reason why OKC lost to Phoenix recently imo- Bledsoe had a layup line to basket. He also was a blackhole, and only had 5 assists in his last 570 minutes as a member of the Jazz. Gobert had that many assists in 1 game recently.

People have been criticizing the job New Orleans' front office has made in regards to their big moves to build around AD. They've been lousy on their big swings, but have done decently getting guys off the scrap heap or buried on benches, to contribute and be part of the rotation (Babbit, Ajinca, Q-Pon, etc.). Eagerly chasing some expensive guys in hopes it'll work out is lacking in foresight, especially when we have so much more info available to determine a player's strength and potential fit/role on a team.

Milbuck is the most die-hard Bucks fan on this forum and knows Knight better than anybody. Listen to what he says about Knight. He's the wrong fit. I hope you finally realized how chasing a guy who can't play your greatest position of need and having limited resources for your bench wasn't wise. That's why I said your argument didn't stack up. Not to mention you've backpedaled on guys being able to start or come off the bench, and were inconsistent in your players' abilities and merits. I mean if a guy is fringe rotation- or in other cases, a fringe starter- in your eyes but will initiate the offense when you just maxed a guy out to do that job, that is really poor planning. If you disagree with that, then I guess we can't really discuss further.

Lawson could be a good fit, but he's not a good defender. Would certainly play well with Gobert & Hayward, and allow for Exum to come along slowly. Idk if I'd trade your lotto pick straight up for him, since that's great value for Denver considering he was a main culprit in having the team quit on the coach. You could work something out with Denver, I'm sure, and that pick is a good starting place. If I had to guess, somebody would have to offer something crazy for Houston to not match a contract for Beverly. I wouldn't be surprised if they massively overpay him for 1 season to have max flexibility to recruit Durant in 2016.

[Cocaine80s]

I think page 3 is the most words ive ever seen on one ISH page

[Choke94]

Jarrett Jack could be a really good PG for the Jazz.
He has lots of experience in the league and his D abilities are adequate

PS. This a very interesting thread, if you guys could keep your posts shorter it would be easier for the rest of us to follow your arguments...

[Xiao Yao You]

Rofl this thread is destroyed. Down the rabbit hole I go...

Look, you don't like my argument when my whole premise has been go for one last high draft pick by making trades. To do so would require waiving a guy with $9.7M/1 year left on deal. In return, you would net a young big in Vonleh to be the backup PF.

They have a back-up PF. Why would they want another young guy playing that's not ready?


Vonleh was billed a stretch four. He's got a 7'4" wingspan, too. The other part of this deal would be moving up in draft to snag Russell. There would be plenty cap space to sign a guy like Koufos. That's how you replace Booker. I said that several posts ago. Please actually consider a post and digest the whole thing before you try to trash it.

It's been digested. They need to add vets not get even younger.


Burks was bad defensively this season and if he's a bench player making 8 figures, that's terrible cap management.

Burks was hurt. He's considered a good defender potentially. Too early to write him off as a bench player.


Starting Hood over him means you made a mistake paying Burks all that money, which will only further decrease his trade value imo.

Not really. Burks could still play big minutes off the bench. When he was healthy they were pulling Hayward early in halves so that one of them would be in the game. Kind of what they are doing now with Favors and Gobert. Could make sense. Will see how it goes when he's got a healthy shoulder for the first time in years.


I know you expect contention, but you have to manage assets properly, and cap space should be utilized properly in a non-glamorous market like Utah. That's why I even brought up trading him because you could get a new starting PG, a backup PF, and have leftover money to get vets at backup G, SF, and C, if you want.

But your players are unproven. Not what they need at this stage.


Neto was an end of draft pick, so it can't be stated that he can hold down the backup PG spot or starting spot better than Burke, Exum, or a rookie like Russell.

It can be hoped though. I saw him outplay Burke two years ago. Burke has not improved since than. Neto has.


Neto will still be an NBA rookie and even a top end talent like Mirotic has gone through struggles in his first year. Mudiay, the young PG to which you referred, is strong, explosive, and has great court vision. His jumpshot is awful and he shot 57% from the line in China. He can certainly pass and defend, but won't knock down shots. That's why I said Russell would be great if you move up to get a PG this draft. I know you don't want a teenaged rookie running the show, but my whole argument has been this year's FA point guard class is bad and the draft is a better avenue.

Beverley looks like a great fit and can probably be had.


Now, trading for an established PG is a different scenario, and if you get the right one, then the Jazz would be well on their way towards a playoff berth. We argued signing Knight vs. drafting Russell, not trades. I simply offered an alternate, less expensive route.

I did mention a trade. Your route is certainly not the way to go as far as I'm concerned.


You said that Utah has gone 2 years with no real NBA PGs (I won't argue this- offensively you need a big upgrade). By saying this, you say Burke isn't a real NBA PG, along with Exum

Right now they aren't. At least not in a rotation of a non tanking team.


(but we agree Exum's a keeper for now), and that you'd like to bring Neto into the fold to get better production. So you shouldn't have denied saying you don't want to continue keeping "2 non NBA PGs" on roster while signing Neto and a vet starting PG. I don't doubt Neto can defend, but how will he defend NBA athletes? There's no proof he can/will, so you can't use that definitively against rookie PGs coming in from college. That's just using proper logic.

He played against NBA players in the worlds. He defended them.


The Kanter/Gobert pairing allowed Kanter to put up great "counting stats," but the team was outscored and overall played poorly.

No they didn't. They've rarely played poorly when Rudy is in the game.


That's why Kanter got moved.

He got moved because he wanted out and they were able to get some assets for him.


But who cares if a guy can score but the team gives up more points than they put up, especially on a team looking to take strides towards the playoffs?

Because like Russell, Exum, Hood, Burke etc. he has lots of upside.


Sure, Favors probably started due to his recent contract extension. Favors/Gobert has been the much better pairing and is more sensible to give the most minutes.

It's debatable. Favors and Kanter both have strengths. Kanter has more upside.


Kanter is really bad defensively, offensive improvements notwithstanding.

As he's done throughout his career he is improving game to game. Passing out of double teams was a bigger issue with him.


His awful D was a big reason why OKC lost to Phoenix recently imo- Bledsoe had a layup line to basket. He also was a blackhole, and only had 5 assists in his last 570 minutes as a member of the Jazz. Gobert had that many assists in 1 game recently.

People have been criticizing the job New Orleans' front office has made in regards to their big moves to build around AD. They've been lousy on their big swings, but have done decently getting guys off the scrap heap or buried on benches, to contribute and be part of the rotation (Babbit, Ajinca, Q-Pon, etc.). Eagerly chasing some expensive guys in hopes it'll work out is lacking in foresight, especially when we have so much more info available to determine a player's strength and potential fit/role on a team.

Getting an all-star pg for another lottery pick made lots of sense to me. Hasn't worked out thus far.


Milbuck is the most die-hard Bucks fan on this forum and knows Knight better than anybody. Listen to what he says about Knight. He's the wrong fit. I hope you finally realized how chasing a guy who can't play your greatest position of need

He can play it. He's been playing it.


and having limited resources for your bench wasn't wise.

They need a back-up center.


That's why I said your argument didn't stack up. Not to mention you've backpedaled on guys being able to start or come off the bench, and were inconsistent in your players' abilities and merits.

I did? I was?


I mean if a guy is fringe rotation- or in other cases, a fringe starter- in your eyes but will initiate the offense when you just maxed a guy out to do that job, that is really poor planning. If you disagree with that, then I guess we can't really discuss further.

They want several guys that can initiate the offense. This isn't an iso heavy team. Think Hawks and Spurs. Remains to be seen if Lindsey or Snyder have a clue. The one thing we know is they finally have someone to build around in Rudy.


Lawson could be a good fit, but he's not a good defender. Would certainly play well with Gobert & Hayward, and allow for Exum to come along slowly. Idk if I'd trade your lotto pick straight up for him, since that's great value for Denver considering he was a main culprit in having the team quit on the coach. You could work something out with Denver, I'm sure, and that pick is a good starting place. If I had to guess, somebody would have to offer something crazy for Houston to not match a contract for Beverly. I wouldn't be surprised if they massively overpay him for 1 season to have max flexibility to recruit Durant in 2016.

Beverley is probably unrestricted no? He might want to go to a team where he has a bigger role.

[Xiao Yao You]

Jarrett Jack could be a really good PG for the Jazz.
He has lots of experience in the league and his D abilities are adequate

PS. This a very interesting thread, if you guys could keep your posts shorter it would be easier for the rest of us to follow your arguments...

If Jack could hit the 3 again he might work. Could play alongside Exum too.

[SwishSquared]

If Booker is the back-up PF you're stating is ready, he may well be, although it's not as if he's a playoff killer. He wasn't amazing last year for Washington but he rebounded well. Had trouble shooting, as his FG% dropped a full 10%. Can always improve though with more reps.

It's been digested. They need to add vets not get even younger.


But your players are unproven. Not what they need at this stage.But the guy you wanted to chase, Brandon Knight, at the heart of this argument is a playoff unknown and has proven himself to be bad at being part of a system? Your plans have also left insufficient funds to get a real back up C. Look, Xiao, just admit you were wrong. My plan gave them money to sign guys like Mo Williams, Koufos, and a backup SF, giving each one a raise to what they currently earn. That's getting multiple vets into rotation. You can't see that because you apparently don't want to?

Burks was hurt. He's considered a good defender potentially. Too early to write him off as a bench player.
Usually by Year 4, you have certain qualities and abilities. If he hasn't become a good defender now, how much potential is there to realize? Sometimes good physical tools do not always translate to defensive success. I'm not writing him off, but he's not a proven defender. You want proven guys. I only called him a bench player when you suggested he come off the bench...

Burks could still play big minutes off the bench. When he was healthy they were pulling Hayward early in halves so that one of them would be in the game.Could make sense. Will see how it goes when he's got a healthy shoulder for the first time in years.
The only team this year that played 8-figure earning guys off the bench on any regular basis are the Knicks, Nets, and Pelicans. Aside from Lopez (returning from injuries & Hollins' bad coaching), that strategy doesn't make a lot of sense and if you don't understand why, it's no reason to explain it to you. You'll quote it one-two sentence(s) at a time and write a contrarian view, which is how this discussion has devolved to.

I did mention a trade. Your route is certainly not the way to go as far as I'm concerned.You actually only mentioned a trade after several posts, and several thousand words, once it was clear to you that your path to contention through FA was bad. Would get you a guy with 4 years playing experience and 1 likely ineffective vet. You realize this whole discussion was a debate on getting a PG through FA or moving up in draft to get one? You brought up getting one via trade only after I showed you the holes in your plan. And FWIW, trading for one isn't a bad plan at all. Just gotta land the right one. I'd rather get one through trade than through FA. I've maintained that getting one in FA is a bad idea for what you want accomplished.

No they didn't. They've rarely played poorly when Rudy is in the game.They had a negative net rating. If that's considered "rarely played poorly" then you need to look up stats to confirm your eye test and prove how well they played.

Beverley is probably unrestricted no? He might want to go to a team where he has a bigger role.He's actually restricted and has had an increased role this year after losing Parsons and the injuries to Houston this year. Harden runs the show but Beverly has not indicated that he dislikes his role.

He got moved because he wanted out and they were able to get some assets for him.Ultimately they traded him but they weren't prepared to sign him to a huge offer this summer. I read multiple times during the season there was a good chance he'd take the QO to become unrestricted next year. His camp fancies him just below a max player, when he's clearly not. Like I said, his offensive game is improving, but he's among the worst big men in RPM and he cannot move quick enough to rotate in time reliably. You can't just say because he has upside still to go in Year 4 that he's worth keeping around if he's proven every year to be so bad defensively that he has a net negative rating. That's illogical.

They need a back-up center.Please give examples of teams getting legit backup centers for a playoff team for room exception or less. I gave you examples of what recent vet big men signed for, one on a contender and one on a lotto team.

He can play it. He's been playing it.You still don't realize why Brandon Knight is overrated and it seems you cannot change your opinion when faced with facts. You can continue to think he plays a certain way but it's not true.

And yes, you have backpedaled. You said guys need to earn spots in rotation, but they may start, and that guys can be effective of bench, but unclear how they fit next to a franchise building block, but it's okay to overpay them to come off the bench. You denied, before, that you said Burke wasn't an NBA PG and in your last post you said that you believe that. It's ok to admit you're wrong. It's just an internet forum lol.

Getting an all-star pg for another lottery pick made lots of sense to me. Hasn't worked out thus far.The Jrue Holliday trade was terrible, even on draft night. I didn't imagine he'd have so many leg issues but his stats were very inflated on that Philly team. He's great defensively and can hit 3s. He's not a top 10 PG. But to give up 2 lotto picks, one of which became Saric + future first + '15 Orlando 2nd round pick, was insanely aggressive. I see you have no problem obtaining guys based on box score stats. Look at advanced metrics and watch these guys play more. That was an awful trade as soon as it was announced.

hey want several guys that can initiate the offense. This isn't an iso heavy team. Think Hawks and Spurs. Remains to be seen if Lindsey or Snyder have a clue. The one thing we know is they finally have someone to build around in Rudy.That's a great style. Atlanta has two very good PGs because they developed them and let them make mistakes. You guys need to acquire a good PG. My whole point was why max out a guy when he's not a good PG. You still need a point guard that can make things happen for his teammates and Atlanta happens to have two.

[El Kabong]

Jarrett Jack could be a really good PG for the Jazz.
He has lots of experience in the league and his D abilities are adequate

PS. This a very interesting thread, if you guys could keep your posts shorter it would be easier for the rest of us to follow your arguments...
Probably need a better 3 point shooter than Jack has been recently. Burkes is probably better, he's just inconsistent as all hell.

They could learn a thing or two from how the Hawks have built their team. I wish Kyle Korver was still here...

[ISHGoat]

What the **** happened in this thread. Get these two old geezers out of here and into the Lazarus Institute for Mental Problems (LIMP)

[SwishSquared]

What the **** happened in this thread. Get these two old geezers out of here and into the Lazarus Institute for Mental Problems (LIMP)
What happened:
-Xiao said Jazz need to pick up Brandon Knight to solidify starting 5 & compete next year (was willing to max him out to get him)
-I said he's overrated and this year's PG class is weak. Better to package current players to move up in draft to get D. Russell if you're going to upgrade at starting PG this summer.

Devolved in backpedaling, disregarding of statistical evidence, hearsay, straw man arguments, and stubbornness. Sorry the thread got jacked. May as well lock it up.

That's my last post for this thread. Don't bother replying, Xiao.

[Xiao Yao You]

If Booker is the back-up PF you're stating is ready, he may well be, although it's not as if he's a playoff killer. He wasn't amazing last year for Washington but he rebounded well. Had trouble shooting, as his FG% dropped a full 10%. Can always improve though with more reps.

But he does have that experience unlike most of the roster or the guy that's playing 5 minutes a game in Charlotte that you want to replace him with.


But the guy you wanted to chase, Brandon Knight, at the heart of this argument is a playoff unknown and has proven himself to be bad at being part of a system? Your plans have also left insufficient funds to get a real back up C. Look, Xiao, just admit you were wrong. My plan gave them money to sign guys like Mo Williams, Koufos, and a backup SF, giving each one a raise to what they currently earn. That's getting multiple vets into rotation. You can't see that because you apparently don't want to?

I see it and don't want to place my bets on more unproven young guys.


Usually by Year 4, you have certain qualities and abilities. If he hasn't become a good defender now, how much potential is there to realize? Sometimes good physical tools do not always translate to defensive success. I'm not writing him off, but he's not a proven defender. You want proven guys. I only called him a bench player when you suggested he come off the bench...

I believe he was one of the top iso defenders in the whole league. He has already shown potential. He is proven as a bench piece.


The only team this year that played 8-figure earning guys off the bench on any regular basis are the Knicks, Nets, and Pelicans. Aside from Lopez (returning from injuries & Hollins' bad coaching), that strategy doesn't make a lot of sense and if you don't understand why, it's no reason to explain it to you. You'll quote it one-two sentence(s) at a time and write a contrarian view, which is how this discussion has devolved to.

They've already signed him. Not much they can do now but ride with it. Whatever is best for the team. After next year 10 million for a bench guy may be nothing.


You actually only mentioned a trade after several posts, and several thousand words, once it was clear to you that your path to contention through FA was bad.

I realized that?


Would get you a guy with 4 years playing experience and 1 likely ineffective vet. You realize this whole discussion was a debate on getting a PG through FA or moving up in draft to get one?

They've already done that and it didn't work out that well.


You brought up getting one via trade only after I showed you the holes in your plan. And FWIW, trading for one isn't a bad plan at all. Just gotta land the right one. I'd rather get one through trade than through FA. I've maintained that getting one in FA is a bad idea for what you want accomplished.

They had a negative net rating. If that's considered "rarely played poorly" then you need to look up stats to confirm your eye test and prove how well they played.

I don't pay that much attention to stats. I watch the games. They played well as they generally do when Rudy is on the floor.


He's actually restricted and has had an increased role this year after losing Parsons and the injuries to Houston this year. Harden runs the show but Beverly has not indicated that he dislikes his role.

He may not. Doesn't mean he wouldn't be open to a bigger role than just playing d and standing at the 3 point line.


Ultimately they traded him but they weren't prepared to sign him to a huge offer this summer. I read multiple times during the season there was a good chance he'd take the QO to become unrestricted next year.

Which is what I thought would happen before his trade request. How unhappy could he be if he was going to play another year with them?


His camp fancies him just below a max player, when he's clearly not. Like I said, his offensive game is improving, but he's among the worst big men in RPM and he cannot move quick enough to rotate in time reliably. You can't just say because he has upside still to go in Year 4 that he's worth keeping around if he's proven every year to be so bad defensively that he has a net negative rating. That's illogical.

It's illogical to keep 22 year olds that continue to improve?


Please give examples of teams getting legit backup centers for a playoff team for room exception or less. I gave you examples of what recent vet big men signed for, one on a contender and one on a lotto team.

You still don't realize why Brandon Knight is overrated and it seems you cannot change your opinion when faced with facts. You can continue to think he plays a certain way but it's not true.

And yes, you have backpedaled. You said guys need to earn spots in rotation, but they may start, and that guys can be effective of bench, but unclear how they fit next to a franchise building block, but it's okay to overpay them to come off the bench.

I don't understand what you said there sorry.


You denied, before, that you said Burke wasn't an NBA PG and in your last post you said that you believe that. It's ok to admit you're wrong. It's just an internet forum lol.

I denied it?


The Jrue Holliday trade was terrible, even on draft night. I didn't imagine he'd have so many leg issues but his stats were very inflated on that Philly team. He's great defensively and can hit 3s. He's not a top 10 PG. But to give up 2 lotto picks, one of which became Saric + future first + '15 Orlando 2nd round pick, was insanely aggressive. I see you have no problem obtaining guys based on box score stats. Look at advanced metrics and watch these guys play more. That was an awful trade as soon as it was announced.

I'm too old to worry much about advance stats. I do watch Jazz games. Doesn't sound like you have.


That's a great style. Atlanta has two very good PGs because they developed them and let them make mistakes. You guys need to acquire a good PG.

That's not what I've been saying?


My whole point was why max out a guy when he's not a good PG. You still need a point guard that can make things happen for his teammates and Atlanta happens to have two.


What happened:

-Xiao said Jazz need to pick up Brandon Knight to solidify starting 5 & compete next year (was willing to max him out to get him)

Not sure I ever said max him out. I think you said that's what it would take to get him.


-I said he's overrated and this year's PG class is weak. Better to package current players to move up in draft to get D. Russell if you're going to upgrade at starting PG this summer.

Devolved in backpedaling, disregarding of statistical evidence, hearsay, straw man arguments, and stubbornness. Sorry the thread got jacked. May as well lock it up.

That's my last post for this thread. Don't bother replying, Xiao.

There's a lot more to the game than stats.

[Choke94]

What about Evan Fournier?
The Jazz then would create the French backcourt/frontcourt connection!!

[Xiao Yao You]

He and rudy are old friends. Doesnt play the 1 though