GOAT stretch in Playoff basketball?

[ImKobe]

Kobe Bryant 2001 Western Conference Playoffs


31.6/7.0/6.2/1.6 on 49,2% shooting, 11-0 record, average +/- of 16,5, 39/10/4/2 on 50/38/85 shooting in 4 consecutive road games against the Kings and Spurs that included b2b 45+ pt 10+ reb games

he was 22 years old.

It's not really about the stats itself, but the fact they won 11 in a row with 5 games on the road with 4 straight played on the road against prime Duncan and C-Webb, they weren't going up against no scrubs, Kobe was just on another level and the MVP in the first 3 rounds.

[dubeta]

Wasn't even the best stretch by a Laker that season, forget about GOAT stretch

[ImKobe]

Wasn't even the best stretch by a Laker that season, forget about GOAT stretch

Shaq had a 22.6 GmSc through the first 3 rounds

Kobe had a 24.2 GmSc

Kobe still ended up leading the Lakers in Win Shares for the entire Playoffs despite Shaq dominating the Finals

plus, Shaq wasn't all that great on D considering that C-Webb averaged 26/13/4 against him and Duncan averaged 23/12/4 with 4 blocks against him.

Shaq in the 4 straight road games averaged 23/12 with 4 TOV on 50% shooting while Kobe averaged 39/10 on 50% shooting

Kobe carried the Lakers on the road and in close games against tough competition while Shaq got his in blowout wins at home. Kobe also averaged less turnovers per game through the entire Playoffs despite being the guy that ran the offense and handled the ball the most.

[Prime_Shaq]

Shaq had a 22.6 GmSc through the first 3 rounds

Kobe had a 24.2 GmSc

Kobe still ended up leading the Lakers in Win Shares for the entire Playoffs despite Shaq dominating the Finals

plus, Shaq wasn't all that great on D considering that C-Webb averaged 26/13/4 against him and Duncan averaged 23/12/4 with 4 blocks against him.

Shaq in the 4 straight road games averaged 23/12 with 4 TOV on 50% shooting while Kobe averaged 39/10 on 50% shooting

Kobe carried the Lakers on the road and in close games against tough competition while Shaq got his in blowout wins at home. Kobe also averaged less turnovers per game through the entire Playoffs despite being the guy that ran the offense and handled the ball the most.
That being said. Shaq > Kobe

[Quickening]

MJ averaged 33, 6, 6 on 49 percent shooting in the playoffs....

[T_L_P]

It varies greatly depending on your criteria, and what you consider a 'stretch'. The 11-0 record helps Kobe's case, a lot. But you need to remember he was the 1a/1b on that title team, which says everything about the strength of his squad. There are certainly stronger stretches in terms of production/play/impact.

Games 10-21 of the 2003 Playoffs for Duncan:

30.0 PPG
15.9 RPG (4.1 ORB)
5.5 APG
0.9 SPG
2.8 BPG
.620 TS% (Kobe's in his run was .576)

Duncan's team was scoring about 9-10 less PPG than Kobe's was, and Duncan was playing GOAT-tier defense (even at Kobe's peak, his defensive impact didn't come close).

But like I said, if it's a recognisable run (Western Conference Playoffs, rounds 2-4, entire Playoff run, etc), as opposed to a stretch of games (Duncan's was from game 3 vs LA to game 1 vs the Nets), then it has to be up there.

1st Three-Peat Jordan had entire Playoff runs better than that though (31/6/8/2/2/.600 TS% in '91). :confusedshrug:

[dubeta]

All these talk about 'stretch' to prop up Kobe and Duncan :roll:

No need to pick and choose games to create an agenda for LeBron, he had a
30+ PER championship run in 2012 forget about individual games

I'd like to see Duncan and Kobe do that


And if you want to talk about 'stretch' look at LeBrons 2009 Playoff stats

[ImKobe]

It varies greatly depending on your criteria, and what you consider a 'stretch'. The 11-0 record helps Kobe's case, a lot. But you need to remember he was the 1a/1b on that title team, which says everything about the strength of his squad. There are certainly stronger stretches in terms of production/play/impact.

Games 10-21 of the 2003 Playoffs for Duncan:

30.0 PPG
15.9 RPG (4.1 ORB)
5.5 APG
0.9 SPG
2.8 BPG
.620 TS% (Kobe's in his run was .576)

Duncan's team was scoring about 9-10 less PPG than Kobe's was, and Duncan was playing GOAT-tier defense (even at Kobe's peak, his defensive impact didn't come close).

But like I said, if it's a recognisable run (Western Conference Playoffs, rounds 2-4, entire Playoff run, etc), as opposed to a stretch of games (Duncan's was from game 3 vs LA to game 1 vs the Nets), then it has to be up there.

1st Three-Peat Jordan had entire Playoff runs better than that though (31/6/8/2/2/.600 TS% in '91). :confusedshrug:

Like I said, it's not really about the stats but the fact that they just ran through the West and won 11 games in a row with 5 of them coming on the road and 4 straight on the road and he ABSOLUTELY beasted in the 4 straight games on the road, where shaq was average in comparison, especially in that 19/14 game he had on below 40% shooting where Duncan dropped 40 & 15 on him but the Lakers still won thanks to Kobe.

I can name better stat lines sure, but none of them went undefeated, and let's not forget Lakers didnt have HCA in the WCF against the Spurs but Kobe dropped 33/7/7/2 (on 51% shooting) a game on em and made it look one sided.

Kobe looked like prime Jordan out there, especially in the semis and WCF. Just straight up domination.


Duncan & Robinson together couldn't stop him from dunking at the rim :bowdown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAKGbrqjzY4

[ImKobe]

All these talk about 'stretch' to prop up Kobe and Duncan :roll:

No need to pick and choose games to create an agenda for LeBron, he had a
30+ PER championship run in 2012 forget about individual games

I'd like to see Duncan and Kobe do that


And if you want to talk about 'stretch' look at LeBrons 2009 Playoff stats

PER is a useless stat on it's own

Lebron's "amazing" run in 09 ended in a loss to the same team Kobe dominated

Kobe did this before they banned all forms of handchecking, and against 50+ win teams in the Blazers, Kings & Spurs. It's not like his stats were inflated from playing some scrub team in the 1st round like Le2/5 usually has in the East.

Blazers - #9 ranked defense, 50-32 record
Kings - #7 ranked defense, 55-27 record
Spurs - #1 ranked defense, 58-24 record

and Kobe's numbers improved every series.

[Prime_Shaq]

All these talk about 'stretch' to prop up Kobe and Duncan :roll:

No need to pick and choose games to create an agenda for LeBron, he had a
30+ PER championship run in 2012 forget about individual games

I'd like to see Duncan and Kobe do that


And if you want to talk about 'stretch' look at LeBrons 2009 Playoff stats
He didn't win that year though.

[dubeta]

PER is a useless stat on it's own

Lebron's "amazing" run in 09 ended in a loss to the same team Kobe dominated

Kobe did this before they banned all forms of handchecking.

Kobe 'dominated'?

Oh you mean a series where Kobe shamelessly statpadded 40 in Game 1 when the game was over

A series where Kobe shot 40% in?


The only series where a FMVP didnt shoot at least 50% in any game?

And still worse stats than LeBron?


Gasol DOMINATED far more than Kobe could that series :oldlol:

[dubeta]

Kobe is probably the highest rated player ever who was never the consensus best player on the championship team

He's a Tony Parker/ D-Wade level player all time but people have the nerve to put him in the top 15 :facepalm

D-Wade 1/3 FMVPs

Tony Parker 1/4 FMVPs

Kobe Bryant 2/5 FMVPs

Looks about right

[ImKobe]

Kobe 'dominated'?

Oh you mean a series where Kobe shamelessly statpadded 40 in Game 1 when the game was over

A series where Kobe shot 40% in?


The only series where a FMVP didnt shoot at least 50% in any game?

And still worse stats than LeBron?


Gasol DOMINATED far more than Kobe could that series :oldlol:

Kobe shot 43%, and he was the first player since 91 MJ to put up 32pts+/5reb+/7ast+ a game for an entire Finals series

I guess averaging 19/9 in 42.5 mpg is more dominant than 32/5/7 :kobe:, especially when Kobe's the one setting Pau up

[AintNoSunshine]

I agree, Shaq's so great during the 3 peat

[ShawkFactory]

PER is a useless stat on it's own

Lebron's "amazing" run in 09 ended in a loss to the same team Kobe dominated

Kobe did this before they banned all forms of handchecking, and against 50+ win teams in the Blazers, Kings & Spurs. It's not like his stats were inflated from playing some scrub team in the 1st round like Le2/5 usually has in the East.

Blazers - #9 ranked defense, 50-32 record
Kings - #7 ranked defense, 55-27 record
Spurs - #1 ranked defense, 58-24 record

and Kobe's numbers improved every series.
Kobe and Lebron, respectively, are not the reasons the Lakers beat Orlando and the Cavs lost to them...

[aj1987]

Kobe shot 43%, and he was the first player since 91 MJ to put up 32pts+/5reb+/7ast+ a game for an entire Finals series

Those numbers are arbitrary as ****. Let me try that. Wade is the only player to put up 34+ PPG, 7+ RPG, 3+ APG, 2+ SPG, and 1+ BPG in a Finals series. Ever.

[riseagainst]

Those numbers are arbitrary as ****. Let me try that. Wade is the only player to put up 34+ PPG, 7+ RPG, 3+ APG, 2+ SPG, and 1+ BPG in a Finals series. Ever.

that's why it's the GOAT finals performance.

[Rose'sACL]

Those numbers are arbitrary as ****. Let me try that. Wade is the only player to put up 34+ PPG, 7+ RPG, 3+ APG, 2+ SPG, and 1+ BPG in a Finals series. Ever.
if anything it shows how weak lebron's cast were that lebron played better than kobe and still lost to the magic who lost in the finals.
seriously, kobe has not had any finals as good as 2012 finals by lebron.

[aj1987]

that's why it's the GOAT finals performance.
Nope. Top 5, but it's definitely not the GOAT Finals performance.

[ImKobe]

Kobe and Lebron, respectively, are not the reasons the Lakers beat Orlando and the Cavs lost to them...

:facepalm

[ImKobe]

Wade is the only player to put up 34+ PPG, 7+ RPG, 3+ APG, 2+ SPG, and 1+ BPG in a Finals series. Ever.

Yeah. And?

My point was that Kobe dominated the 2009 Finals.

[ShawkFactory]

:facepalm
Wait, do you think they ARE the primary reasons? Normally I'd think you were trolling but you seem to be a huge kobe nutlicker.

[aj1987]

Yeah. And?

My point was that Kobe dominated the 2009 Finals.
No doubt. Those numbers are still arbitrary as **** though.

[ImKobe]

Wait, do you think they ARE the primary reasons? Normally I'd think you were trolling but you seem to be a huge kobe nutlicker.

Kobe was the primary reason his team won. He was the Finals MVP. He was the one that ran the triangle and led his team to the championship. You can cry about him shooting 43% from the field but you can't deny his role.

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe was the primary reason his team won. He was the Finals MVP. He was the one that ran the triangle and led his team to the championship. You can cry about him shooting 43% from the field but you can't deny his role.
I was comparing the Lakers to the Cavs. The difference between winning and losing to Orlando between the two teams was not having Kobe instead of Lebron.

[ImKobe]

I was comparing the Lakers to the Cavs. The difference between winning and losing to Orlando between the two teams was not having Kobe instead of Lebron.

Fair enough, but you don't get credit for putting up big numbers in losses.

[ShawkFactory]

Fair enough, but you don't get credit for putting up big numbers in losses.
I wasn't giving Lebron credit. But the true underlying reason the Lakers won was their frontcourt.

Dwight vs Cleveland: 26/13/3 on 65% and 3 TOV
Dwight vs LA: 15/15/2 on 49% and 5 TOV

He was the difference in both series, not Kobe or Lebron.

[ImKobe]

I wasn't giving Lebron credit. But the true underlying reason the Lakers won was their frontcourt.

Dwight vs Cleveland: 26/13/3 on 65% and 3 TOV
Dwight vs LA: 15/15/2 on 49% and 5 TOV

He was the difference in both series, not Kobe or Lebron.

Yeah, Dwight outplayed Lebron in the ECF and choked on the big stage.

[aj1987]

Yeah, Dwight outplayed Big Z and Andy V in the ECF and for shutdown on the big stage by Gasol and Odom.
Fixed.

[ShawkFactory]

Yeah, Dwight outplayed Lebron in the ECF and choked on the big stage.
Or, you know....the Lakers had players up front that could match up with Dwight while Cleveland didn't....

But that might make a little too much sense for you. So yea, we can go with your thing and be done here.

[Mr Feeny]

Or, you know....the Lakers had players up front that could match up with Dwight while Cleveland didn't....

But that might make a little too much sense for you. So yea, we can go with your thing and be done here.

Don't talk sense to a 17 year old Kobe stan:no:

[ImKobe]

Or, you know....the Lakers had players up front that could match up with Dwight while Cleveland didn't....

But that might make a little too much sense for you. So yea, we can go with your thing and be done here.

He did choke. He went to the line to shoot two free throws that would have put the game out of reach on his home floor (Lakers down 3), only to miss both and lose in OT. :applause:


It was a closer series than you think. Orlando dropped two OT games.

Dwight averaged 15.4/15.2 with 1.6 spg and 4 bpg, he sonned Bynum pretty badly in that series and severly limited his minutes due to foul trouble (21 fouls in 5 games) and Turkoglu went off on us

[Mr Feeny]

He did choke. He missed two free throws that would have put the game out of reach on his home floor (Lakers down 3), only to miss both and lose in OT. :applause:

6/24 in game 7's:(

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It was impressive, but nowhere near GOAT level. Especially when we consider the injuries to the Spurs' backcourt. Did Derek Anderson even play in that series? I know he mised a few games, but that's just from the top.

Jordan's series vs. Phoenix
Jordan's series vs Lakers
Jordan's series Portland
LeBron's series vs Orlando
Shaq's series vs Indiana
Shaq's series vs Philly

Most of these happened during the finals too. :eek:

[ImKobe]

It was impressive, but nowhere near GOAT level. Especially when we consider the injuries to the Spurs' backcourt. Did Derek Anderson even play in that series? I know he mised a few games, but that's just from the top.

Jordan's series vs. Phoenix
Jordan's series vs Lakers
Jordan's series Portland
LeBron's series vs Orlando
Shaq's series vs Indiana
Shaq's series vs Philly

Most of these happened during the finals too. :eek:

Lebron lost

this has more to do with going undefeated through 3 rounds against 50+ win teams in the West. Jordan played a depleted Lakers squad and struggled guarding Magic, Phoenix had no one to put on MJ and he scored effortlessly, Shaq had no one to match up with him and abused his competition

Kobe's run was far more impressive considering he went off on 4 straight road games and averaged 35 ppg in 5 road games and he wasn't even in his prime at 22 years of age.

[ImKobe]

6/24 in game 7's:(

Still hoisted up the Finals MVP :bowdown:

[ShawkFactory]

He did choke. He went to the line to shoot two free throws that would have put the game out of reach on his home floor (Lakers down 3), only to miss both and lose in OT. :applause:


It was a closer series than you think. Orlando dropped two OT games.

Dwight averaged 15.4/15.2 with 1.6 spg and 4 bpg, he sonned Bynum pretty badly in that series and severly limited his minutes due to foul trouble (21 fouls in 5 games) and Turkoglu went off on us
But according to most Kobe stans Bynum wasn't even a factor in 2009 and should not be listen as a good teammate that Kobe won with. And they're actually right. Bynum's numbers in the finals were virtually no different than the rest of the playoffs. He wasn't really a factor.

And EVERY shooter when off on Cleveland. The team shot 41% from 3 on the series :wtf:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lebron lost

this has more to do with going undefeated through 3 rounds against 50+ win teams in the West. Jordan played a depleted Lakers squad and struggled guarding Magic, Phoenix had no one to put on MJ and he scored effortlessly, Shaq had no one to match up with him and abused his competition.

Jordan faced all of Phoenix's starters, including all-nba defensive teamers. Same with LeBron and Shaq, who faced better competition at their position. Kobe faced a depleted Spurs' backcourt who had to rely on Avery Johnson and scrubs from the bench. Another common theme with these players (Jordan/Bron/Shaq) is that they were clearly the best players on their team. LeBron/MJ in particular, didn't have the luxury of having another scoring threat - an elite scorer.


Kobe's run was far more impressive considering he went off on 4 straight road games and averaged 35 ppg in 5 road games and he wasn't even in his prime at 22 years of age.

Shaq had more impact in those playoffs as his Adjusted Plus Minus indicates. This is before the finals too. Like I said, Kobe's run was impressive, but nowhere NEAR GOAT-level.

[ImKobe]

Jordan faced all of Phoenix's starters, including all-nba defensive teamers. Same with LeBron and Shaq, who faced better competition at their position. One common theme with these players is that they were clearly the best players on their team. LeBron/MJ in pariticular, didn't have the luxury of having another scoring threat - an elite scorer.



Shaq had more impact in those playoffs as his Adjusted Plus Minus indicates. This is before the finals too. Like I said, Kobe's run was impressive, but nowhere NEAR GOAT-level.

Shaq had more impact? he went for 19 points on below 40% shooting and allowed Duncan to put up 40/15 on him and they still won :oldlol:

Shaq was the most turnover prone player on the Lakers despite not running the offense


:coleman:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Shaq had more impact? he went for 19 points on below 40% shooting and allowed Duncan to put up 40/15 on him and they still won :oldlol:

Shaq actually averaged 27ppg in that series, and had more impact because he was a better rebounder and defender. In fact, if you watch the series over again, you could see both David Robinson AND Duncan double-teaming Shaq, allowing Kobe to do his thing against the Spurs' depleted backcourt.

:cheers:

[ImKobe]

But according to most Kobe stans Bynum wasn't even a factor in 2009 and should not be listen as a good teammate that Kobe won with. And they're actually right. Bynum's numbers in the finals were virtually no different than the rest of the playoffs. He wasn't really a factor.

And EVERY shooter when off on Cleveland. The team shot 41% from 3 on the series :wtf:

Dwight's rebounding INCREASED against the Lakers and he put up 4 blocks a game, his scoring decreased (drew less fouls), but Turk and Shard made up for it.

Like I said, Orlando lost TWO overtime games in that series, one being at their home, where Dwight missed two free throws to seal the game in the 4th

Game 5 was close as well (Bynum started out like 0 - 7) until Lakers broke free in the 3rd....

It was still a close series and Orlando wasn't that overmatched, just that Dwight choked a game away at the FT line :confusedshrug:

Shard and Turk both shot 40+% from 3 against us

[Prometheus]

'09 bran jame might be the best performance in a series loss ever (aside from the first ever Finals MVP). Anyone who actually watched that series knows that Hedo Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis were the main reasons Orlando won. Those f@ggots were just hitting three after three after three after three, hand in their face, down two points at the end of a game, whatever. Shit was bananas.

[ShawkFactory]

Dwight's rebounding INCREASED against the Lakers and he put up 4 blocks a game, his scoring decreased (drew less fouls), but Turk and Shard made up for it.

Like I said, Orlando lost TWO overtime games in that series, one being at their home, where Dwight missed two free throws to seal the game in the 4th

Game 5 was close as well (Bynum started out like 0 - 7) until Lakers broke free in the 3rd....

It was still a close series and Orlando wasn't that overmatched, just that Dwight choked a game away at the FT line :confusedshrug:

Shard and Turk both shot 40+% from 3 against us
The differences you listed with Dwight were defensive. Taken in context, the Lakers had a more significant usage in their front court offense. This explains the difference in Dwight's bulk numbers. Offensively, everything points to Dwight being far superior vs Cleveland.

He took exactly the same amount of free throws per game in the two series. He made a higher percentage in the finals however.

[FatComputerNerd]

Rondo had some pretty ridiculous playoff stretches in Boston.

I'd go so far as to say he is/was one of the greatest playoff performers of all time.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe stans are definitely the scariest bunch on ISH. OP is literally incapable of being objective about anything, and will post the most arbitrary figures to try to prop up Kobe and diminish LeBron/Shaq/anyone else. Kobe obviously had a great playoff run in '01, the GOAT performance though? **** outta here

[pauk]

PER is a useless stat on it's own

Lebron's "amazing" run in 09 ended in a loss to the same team Kobe dominated

Kobe did this before they banned all forms of handchecking, and against 50+ win teams in the Blazers, Kings & Spurs. It's not like his stats were inflated from playing some scrub team in the 1st round like Le2/5 usually has in the East.

Blazers - #9 ranked defense, 50-32 record
Kings - #7 ranked defense, 55-27 record
Spurs - #1 ranked defense, 58-24 record

and Kobe's numbers improved every series.

Stop it, we all saw them both those series. If Lebron shot 40% or had just a single game where he was 6 of 24 he would lose by 30-40 points..... his team wasnt good enough to bail him out.... he played an allround game every single game that Magic series Kobe would only dream of...

[AirBourne92]

all these cornball squares who never hooped a day in their life will try to reduce performances down to a stat and down to accolades like FMVP

they will never understand team playing and accepting roles that reduce chances of getting FMVP's and reducing stats etc

3 peat Kobe was a monster, and if peak kobe had a legit team with ball IQ and some guts, no one would be denying Kobe of any praise he deserves.

People wonder why Larry Bird, Jordan, and Magic all pick Kobe despite his "stats"


because the game goes beyond stats. i dont see any other player in the league being able to replace kobe in 08-10 and being able to make an appearance to the finals 3 times.

[Prime_Shaq]

Shaq had more impact? he went for 19 points on below 40% shooting and allowed Duncan to put up 40/15 on him and they still won :oldlol:

Shaq was the most turnover prone player on the Lakers despite not running the offense


:coleman:
and Shaq's impact still > Kobe's
Shaq was number 1, Kobe was number 2. Deal with it. No shame in being behind the most dominant player off all-time.

[ArbitraryWater]

all these cornball squares who never hooped a day in their life will try to reduce performances down to a stat and down to accolades like FMVP

they will never understand team playing and accepting roles that reduce chances of getting FMVP's and reducing stats etc

3 peat Kobe was a monster, and if peak kobe had a legit team with ball IQ and some guts, no one would be denying Kobe of any praise he deserves.

People wonder why Larry Bird, Jordan, and Magic all pick Kobe despite his "stats"


because the game goes beyond stats. i dont see any other player in the league being able to replace kobe in 08-10 and being able to make an appearance to the finals 3 times.

http://media.giphy.com/media/vWDrezW0rMjmM/giphy.gif

[Chadwin]

Hakeem in 94

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

all these cornball squares who never hooped a day in their life will try to reduce performances down to a stat and down to accolades like FMVP

they will never understand team playing and accepting roles that reduce chances of getting FMVP's and reducing stats etc

3 peat Kobe was a monster, and if peak kobe had a legit team with ball IQ and some guts, no one would be denying Kobe of any praise he deserves.

People wonder why Larry Bird, Jordan, and Magic all pick Kobe despite his "stats"


because the game goes beyond stats. i dont see any other player in the league being able to replace kobe in 08-10 and being able to make an appearance to the finals 3 times.

Jordan, Shaq and LeBron have all adopted roles. For the most part, they were still the best players and FMVPs of their respective teams. It's OK to admit Kobe was inferior to Shaq and that he played Shaq's Robin.

Hop off your alt and take another L on your Madsen main.

[Mr Feeny]

all these cornball squares who never hooped a day in their life will try to reduce performances down to a stat and down to accolades like FMVP

they will never understand team playing and accepting roles that reduce chances of getting FMVP's and reducing stats etc

3 peat Kobe was a monster, and if peak kobe had a legit team with ball IQ and some guts, no one would be denying Kobe of any praise he deserves.

People wonder why Larry Bird, Jordan, and Magic all pick Kobe despite his "stats"


because the game goes beyond stats. i dont see any other player in the league being able to replace kobe in 08-10 and being able to make an appearance to the finals 3 times.Wow. Just wow. Do you guys deliberately try to be idiots?:biggums:

[ImKobe]

Wow. Just wow. Do you guys deliberately try to be idiots?:biggums:

Holy crap, you just don't know when to stop. :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

and Shaq's impact still > Kobe's
Shaq was number 1, Kobe was number 2. Deal with it. No shame in being behind the most dominant player off all-time.

Kobe was number 2 only in 2000. They were 1a/1b after the first title.

Kobe led the 2000-01 Lakers in total winshares in the Playoffs. He contributed slightly more to wins than Shaq for the Playoff run and was the best player in 3 out of 4 series, while Shaq was the best player against the worst team they faced. No shame in that.

[ImKobe]

Stop it, we all saw them both those series. If Lebron shot 40% or had just a single game where he was 6 of 24 he would lose by 30-40 points..... his team wasnt good enough to bail him out.... he played an allround game every single game that Magic series Kobe would only dream of...

Are we going to discuss what happened the year before?

2008 against Boston:

Game 1 - Lebron goes 2-18 with 10 turnovers and Cavs lose by 4

Game 2 - Lebron goes 6-24 with 7 turnovers and Cavs lose by 16

Game 3 - Lebron goes 5-16 and Cavs win by 24

Game 4 - Lebron goes 7-20 and Cavs win by 11


And regarding the last part of your post, Kobe put up 8 assists every game for the first 4 games of the series and averaged 7.4 assists a game, Lebron averaged 8 assists a game to 4.2 turnovers a game against the Magic while Kobe averaged 7.4 assists to 3.2 turnovers :rolleyes:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe was number 2 only in 2000. They were 1a/1b after the first title.

Kobe led the 2000-01 Lakers in total winshares in the Playoffs. He contributed slightly more to wins than Shaq for the Playoff run and was the best player in 3 out of 4 series, while Shaq was the best player against the worst team they faced. No shame in that.
Wrong. They were NOT 1A and B after 2000. It was Shaq as the first option, and Kobe the number two as per PJax.

Shaq had the most Laker winshares in 2000 and 2002 along with more winshares during the 2001 regular season. Winshares them self are flawed though. Like indiviudal ORTG/DRTG, these stats do not adjust for teammates on the floor. So you could have a great number in winshares but they are dependent on your teams success, which again, include your teammates numbers.

The only stat which attempts to adjust for individual impact is Adjusted Plus Minus (hence the word adjusted). Shaq was probably the best player in every series during the playoffs. I don't like the stat; hate most advanced metrics as I feel they're all team ones, but its probably what you want to look at if we're arguing with your narrative.

[ImKobe]

Wrong. They were NOT 1A and B after 2000. It was Shaq as the first option, and Kobe the number two as per PJax.

Shaq led the Lakers in winshares in 2000 and 2002 along with more winshares during the 2001 regular season. Winshares in itself are flawed though. Like indiviudal ORTG/DRTG, these stats do not adjust for teammates on the floor. So you could have a great number in winshares but they are dependent on your teams success, which again, include your teammates numbers.

The only stat which attempts to adjust for individual impact is Adjusted Plus Minus (hence the word adjusted). Shaq was probably the best player in every series during the playoffs. I don't like the stat; hate most advanced metrics as I feel they're all team ones, but its probably what you want to look at if we're arguing with your narrative.

:biggums:

That is a flat out lie and I don't think I need to re-post what has already been said in this thread.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:biggums:

That is a flat out lie and I don't think I need to re-post what has already been said in this thread.

How is that a lie? PER measures efficiency, but its not really an impact stat. Winshares and individual ORTG/DRTG are flawed as hell, relying too much on your team which essentially tells you nothing. For true impact, there are various forms of RAPM (RPM, xRAPM, etc); they are what you want to look at if you're a stat nerd attempting to "measure" individual impact.

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe was number 2 only in 2000. They were 1a/1b after the first title.

Kobe led the 2000-01 Lakers in total winshares in the Playoffs. He contributed slightly more to wins than Shaq for the Playoff run and was the best player in 3 out of 4 series, while Shaq was the best player against the worst team they faced. No shame in that.
Gasol had more win shares in the 2010 playoffs than Kobe. In fact, he had more playoff win shares in 2010 than Kobe has had in any year except 2009.

[warriorfan]

Kobe Bryant 2001 Western Conference Playoffs


31.6/7.0/6.2/1.6 on 49,2% shooting, 11-0 record, average +/- of 16,5, 39/10/4/2 on 50/38/85 shooting in 4 consecutive road games against the Kings and Spurs that included b2b 45+ pt 10+ reb games

he was 22 years old.

It's not really about the stats itself, but the fact they won 11 in a row with 5 games on the road with 4 straight played on the road against prime Duncan and C-Webb, they weren't going up against no scrubs, Kobe was just on another level and the MVP in the first 3 rounds.



GOAT playoff stretch was when Kobe raped that white gurl in the ass

[Artillery]

Gasol had more win shares in the 2010 playoffs than Kobe. In fact, he had more playoff win shares in 2010 than Kobe has had in any year except 2009.

MVPau also had a higher playoff BPM in 2010. Dude was most definitely cheated out of a Finals MVP that year. Carried that team on his back. Kobe, forever a sidekick.

[Young X]

2008 Kobe 1st 3 rounds: 32/6/6 on 60.5 TS%/119 ORtg.

Lakers went 12-3.

^This is better.

[Mr Feeny]

2008 Kobe 1st 3 rounds: 32/6/6 on 60.5 TS%/119 ORtg.

Lakers went 12-3.

^This is better.

MJ'S career po average was 33.5, 6, and 6
Let that sink in!

Anyways this Kobe stretch doesn't even sniff Durant, Wade or Brons best stretches:D

[Mr Feeny]

MVPau also had a higher playoff BPM in 2010. Dude was most definitely cheated out of a Finals MVP that year. Carried that team on his back. Kobe, forever a sidekick.

This. Mr 6-24 in game 7's chokes when the stakes are highest. Lucky he had Gasol cleaning his bricks.

[Prime_Shaq]

Kobe was number 2 only in 2000. They were 1a/1b after the first title.

Kobe led the 2000-01 Lakers in total winshares in the Playoffs. He contributed slightly more to wins than Shaq for the Playoff run and was the best player in 3 out of 4 series, while Shaq was the best player against the worst team they faced. No shame in that.
Yeah no. Kobe was able to do what he did on such efficiency only because teams would focus on shutting down Shaq and let Kobe do whatever he wanted. Nobody needed as much defensive attention than Shaq in the post.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan's first two rounds of the 1989 playoffs: 37.5 pts/7.8 reb/8.3 ast/2.7 stl/.9 blk/53% FG/62% TS

[andgar923]

Bron, Wade, CP3 all had better series.

And that's not including the ridiculous stretch that Dirk had either... and that's just from this era.

[HOoopCityJones]

It wasn't GOAT, but still underrated.

If Kobe was a sidekick , so was Magic.

[Cold soul]

It's not the GOAT performance but it ranks higher than some people will give him credit for.

[NBASTATMAN]

Shaq had a 22.6 GmSc through the first 3 rounds

Kobe had a 24.2 GmSc

Kobe still ended up leading the Lakers in Win Shares for the entire Playoffs despite Shaq dominating the Finals

plus, Shaq wasn't all that great on D considering that C-Webb averaged 26/13/4 against him and Duncan averaged 23/12/4 with 4 blocks against him.

Shaq in the 4 straight road games averaged 23/12 with 4 TOV on 50% shooting while Kobe averaged 39/10 on 50% shooting

Kobe carried the Lakers on the road and in close games against tough competition while Shaq got his in blowout wins at home. Kobe also averaged less turnovers per game through the entire Playoffs despite being the guy that ran the offense and handled the ball the most.



I can tell you never watched any of these series... :facepalm

[ai9]

Derek Fisher

2 points on 100% shooting through a 0.4 second stretch in the 2004 WCF.

If you extrapolate that to 48 minutes, that's 240 points per 48 minutes.

:bowdown:

[Prime_Shaq]

Derek Fisher

2 points on 100% shooting through a 0.4 second stretch in the 2004 WCF.

If you extrapolate that to 48 minutes, that's 240 points per 48 minutes.

:bowdown:
GOAT :bowdown:

[34-24 Footwork]

Lol. People really can't be objective when it comes to Kobe.
By 2001, he was top 5 in the league. And up til the Achilles injury, he never went any lower.

But if we're talking about GOAT stretches WITHIN playoff basketball, two series of his come to mind.

Laker/Nuggets 2009 (Melo, Jr Smith & co)
Lakers/Suns 2010 (this was unreal)

The thing about Kobe is that his career has been long as fvck.

Team success primarily- 2000-2003

Individual success primarily- 2006-2013


Most haters wont even discuss Kobe's dominance of the western conference 2000-2003. There's never been a guard that has dominated the modern Western Conference the way Kobe did in the playoffs.

[ImKobe]

I can tell you never watched any of these series... :facepalm

By most statistics, Kobe was the best player in the first 3 rounds and we all know he was the closer and the playmaker on that squad, what else do you want me to say? Recite full games to prove that I watched the Playoffs?

[ImKobe]

MVPau also had a higher playoff BPM in 2010. Dude was most definitely cheated out of a Finals MVP that year. Carried that team on his back. Kobe, forever a sidekick.

Kobe had a higher BPM & WS/48 than Shaq in 2001. Kobe carried the most dominant Playoff team on his back. Kobe, forever a GOAT.

[mehyaM24]

I can tell you never watched any of these series... :facepalm
this. as mentioned, shaq was the best player in nearly every series. especially in 2001, for a couple of reasons.

-he was the most double-teamed player on the floor
-played the best defense
-averaged the most rebounds
-was clearly the best scorer because of his efficiency

^^^^ all of this before the finals, where shaq finally led the lakers in every major statistical category. ofc, prior to the finals, kobe really only led shaq in ppg (+2ppg) & on far worse shooting %'s - this is why shaq led the lakers in rapm (GOAT impact stat) & per, individual-based IMPACT metrics.

[T_L_P]

this. as mentioned, shaq was the best player in nearly every series. especially in 2001, for a couple of reasons.

-he was the most double-teamed player on the floor
-played the best defense
-averaged the most rebounds
-was clearly the best scorer because of his efficiency

^^^^ all of this before the finals, where shaq finally led the lakers in every major statistical category. ofc, prior to the finals, kobe really only led shaq in ppg (+2ppg) & on far worse shooting %'s - this is why shaq led the lakers in rapm (GOAT impact stat) & per, individual-based IMPACT metrics.

Kobe TS% in the WC Playoffs: .576 TS%

Shaq's: .557 TS%

RAPM is a great stat, but it involves the Regular Season. If it's solely a discussion about postseason basketball it has no place in this thread.

[Cold soul]

Kobe 2001 playoff run is one of five greatest playoff runs for any player I've ever seen. Yes, better than his run 2008-2010 as number #1 option. Kobe went into God mode for whole 2001 run especially on defense he was playing like best perimeter defender in whole league. What he did against Sacramento Kings was prime MJ stuff. Kobe was 1B option to peak Shaq until Finals where Shaq would beat up Eastern Conference front lines with ease.

[ImKobe]

this. as mentioned, shaq was the best player in nearly every series. especially in 2001, for a couple of reasons.

-he was the most double-teamed player on the floor
-played the best defense
-averaged the most rebounds
-was clearly the best scorer because of his efficiency

^^^^ all of this before the finals, where shaq finally led the lakers in every major statistical category. ofc, prior to the finals, kobe really only led shaq in ppg (+2ppg) & on far worse shooting %'s - this is why shaq led the lakers in rapm (GOAT impact stat) & per, individual-based IMPACT metrics.

lol? And you continue with your stats bs, you obviously didn't watch games yourself

and Kobe had a higher BPM in the Playoffs than Shaq FYI

And you reasons are stupid. "most double teamed player", well duh, he's ****ing 7-2 that weighs 300 pounds, he's going to get double teamed more often at the rim

and rebounds, obviously he's going to average more, he's a big man that's more athletic and bigger than others, he's supposed to be a monster on the boards

and since you love stats, let's compare their Playoff series stats in the West...

vs POR

Kobe: 25/4/8 (with 2 TOV) on 48% shooting, average +/- of +22
Shaq: 27/16/3 (with 2.7 TOV) on 48% shooting average +/- of +18,3

Pretty much a toss up scoring wise with Kobe averaging 2 less points on 2.7 less shots a game, he actually had the higher pps despite Shaq taking more FTs and FGA a game

vs SAC

Kobe: 35/9/4 on (4.0 TOV) 47% shooting, average +/- of 11

Shaq: 33/17/2 (3.8 TOV) on 60% shooting, average +/- of 6,75

Shaq dominated the first two games, Kobe took over the next two and capped the series off with a 48/16/3 performance, again both dominated effortlessly but Lakers outscored their opponents at a better rate with Kobe on the floor

vs SAS

Kobe: 33/7/7 (2.8 TOV) on 51% shooting, average +/- of 18,25

Shaq: 27/13/3 (3.5 TOV) on 54% shooting, average +/- of 16

This was Kobe's strongest series, while Shaq wasn't as dominant going up against the twin towers, he had a couple big games but Kobe was great the entire series and never shot as badly as Shaq and again did an amazing job distributing the ball while also dropping a high amount of points. Much gets talked about his 45/10 game on the road, but his Game 3 was even more impressive IMO with a 36/9/8 stat line, no coincidence Shaq also had his best game of the series.'

So yeah, Kobe had a better +/- every series of the WC Playoffs, led the team in Winshares and was unquestionably the best player on the road with averages of 36/9/6 on the road vs Shaq's 24/14/2.

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe 2001 playoff run is one of five greatest playoff runs for any player I've ever seen. Yes, better than his run 2008-2010 as number #1 option. Kobe went into God mode for whole 2001 run especially on defense he was playing like best perimeter defender in whole league. What he did against Sacramento Kings was prime MJ stuff.

Wow.

[Mr Feeny]

lol? And you continue with your stats bs, you obviously didn't watch games yourself

and Kobe had a higher BPM in the Playoffs than Shaq FYI

And you reasons are stupid. "most double teamed player", well duh, he's ****ing 7-2 that weighs 300 pounds, he's going to get double teamed more often at the rim

and rebounds, obviously he's going to average more, he's a big man that's more athletic and bigger than others, he's supposed to be a monster on the boards

and since you love stats, let's compare their Playoff series stats in the West...

vs POR

Kobe: 25/4/8 (with 2 TOV) on 48% shooting, average +/- of +22
Shaq: 27/16/3 (with 2.7 TOV) on 48% shooting average +/- of +18,3

Pretty much a toss up scoring wise with Kobe averaging 2 less points on 2.7 less shots a game, he actually had the higher pps despite Shaq taking more FTs a game

vs SAC

Kobe: 35/9/4 on (4.0 TOV) 47% shooting, average +/- of 11

Shaq: 33/17/2 (3.8 TOV) on 60% shooting, average +/- of 6,75

Shaq dominated the first two games, Kobe took over the next two and capped the series off with a 48/16/3 performance, again both dominated effortlessly but Lakers outscored their opponents at a better rate with Kobe on the floor

vs SAS

Kobe: 33/7/7 (2.8 TOV) on 51% shooting, average +/- of 18,25

Shaq: 27/13/3 (3.5 TOV) on 54% shooting, average +/- of 16

This was Kobe's strongest series, while Shaq wasn't as dominant going up against the twin towers, he had a couple big games but Kobe was great the entire series and never shot as badly as Shaq and again did an amazing job distributing the ball while also dropping a high amount of points. Much gets talked about his 45/10 game on the road, but his Game 3 was even more impressive IMO with a 36/9/8 stat line, no coincidence Shaq also had his best game of the series.'

So yeah, Kobe had a better +/- every series of the WC Playoffs, led the team in Winshares and was unquestionably the best player on the road with averages of 36/9/6 on the road vs Shaq's 24/14/2.

It's amazing how much space you have to work with and how easy it is to work when you have Shaq on your team occupying the opposition defense ' s attention :applause:

[Cold soul]

Wow.

Yup indeed. He was such great defender too not just offensively what he was doing.

[ImKobe]

Kobe 2001 playoff run is one of five greatest playoff runs for any player I've ever seen. Yes, better than his run 2008-2010 as number #1 option. Kobe went into God mode for whole 2001 run especially on defense he was playing like best perimeter defender in whole league. What he did against Sacramento Kings was prime MJ stuff. Kobe was 1B option to peak Shaq until Finals where Shaq would beat up Eastern Conference front lines with ease.

What's crazy is that 2001 Kobe did all that without a legit 3pt shot. He was consistently attacking the rim and shooting mid-range jumpers, he didn't play the same way he did in his later years (I believe he started chucking 3s in 2003).

[Mr Feeny]

Yup indeed. He was such great defender too not just offensively what he was doing.

Except that he wasn't. And never was. Certainly not on Shaq's level. But kudos to being a good sidekick:rockon:

[ImKobe]

It's amazing how much space you have to work with and how easy it is to work when you have Shaq on your team occupying the opposition defense ' s attention :applause:

Perimeter players aren't occupied defending Shaq....

and at least watch some highlights and see how Kobe scored the majority of his points and how Shaq scored his

Shaq was assisted on 64% of his shots in the Playoffs

Kobe was assisted on 35% of his shots

:rolleyes:

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe 2001 playoff run is one of five greatest playoff runs for any player I've ever seen. Yes, better than his run 2008-2010 as number #1 option. Kobe went into God mode for whole 2001 run especially on defense he was playing like best perimeter defender in whole league. What he did against Sacramento Kings was prime MJ stuff. Kobe was 1B option to peak Shaq until Finals where Shaq would beat up Eastern Conference front lines with ease.

Okay, so you conceed Kobe's run being worse than Shaq in '00 and '01..

when did you start watching the NBA? Let say 2000.

Since 2000 these runs are undeniably better than 2001 Kobe:

Shaq 2000, 2001, 2002 arguable
Duncan 2003, 2005 arguable, 2007 arguable
Wade 2006
Dirk 2003 arguable, 2006 arguable, 2011
Kobe 2008
LeBron 2009, 2012, 2013, 2014 arguable
Durant 2012

It can't be top 5 since 2000.

[ImKobe]

Okay, so you conceed Kobe's run being worse than Shaq in '00 and '01..

when did you start watching the NBA? Let say 2000.

Since 2000 these runs are undeniably better than 2001 Kobe:

Shaq 2000, 2001, 2002 arguable
Duncan 2003, 2005 arguable, 2007 arguable
Wade 2006
Dirk 2003 arguable, 2006 arguable, 2011
Kobe 2008
LeBron 2009, 2012, 2013, 2014 arguable
Durant 2012

It can't be top 5 since 2000.

just stop posting.

"undeniably better" than 2001 Kobe, who's team won 11 straight and had a 15-1 record while Kobe led them in WS and BPM and who easily had the better numbers in road games than Shaq

posts runs that are post-handchecking era and even a couple where Players don't make the damn Finals or win the title :facepalm

:facepalm

And Kobe's 2009 and 2010 run was better than his 08 run :facepalm

[T_L_P]

Kobe 2001 playoff run is one of five greatest playoff runs for any player I've ever seen. Yes, better than his run 2008-2010 as number #1 option. Kobe went into God mode for whole 2001 run especially on defense he was playing like best perimeter defender in whole league. What he did against Sacramento Kings was prime MJ stuff. Kobe was 1B option to peak Shaq until Finals where Shaq would beat up Eastern Conference front lines with ease.

Whats your top 5 you've seen?

[34-24 Footwork]

Okay, so you conceed Kobe's run being worse than Shaq in '00 and '01..

when did you start watching the NBA? Let say 2000.

Since 2000 these runs are undeniably better than 2001 Kobe:

Shaq 2000, 2001, 2002 arguable
Duncan 2003, 2005 arguable, 2007 arguable
Wade 2006
Dirk 2003 arguable, 2006 arguable, 2011
Kobe 2008
LeBron 2009, 2012, 2013, 2014 arguable
Durant 2012

It can't be top 5 since 2000.

No offense to Bron and Wade, but you can't sneak in eastern conference players in this discussion. It's just not right. Lol.

All things considered, (including competition) Kobe's run in 2000 is top 5 In the last 15 years.

[Mr Feeny]

just stop posting.

"undeniably better" than 2001 Kobe, who's team won 11 straight and had a 15-1 record while Kobe led them in WS and BPM and who easily had the better numbers in road games than Shaq

posts runs that are post-handchecking era and even a couple where Players don't make the damn Finals or win the title :facepalm

:facepalm

And Kobe's 2009 and 2010 run was better than his 08 run :facepalm

Why are you yelling him to stop posting. You can't seem to answer a single point that he's making. What does a team record have to do with individual play discussion ? Having Shaq on your team destroying the opposition and winning you games is great but we are focusing on the individual here.
All of the runs he posted were more impressive than Kobe's and as he said, quite a few of them aren't even close.

[ArbitraryWater]

just stop posting.

"undeniably better" than 2001 Kobe, who's team won 11 straight and had a 15-1 record while Kobe led them in WS and BPM and who easily had the better numbers in road games than Shaq

posts runs that are post-handchecking era and even a couple where Players don't make the damn Finals or win the title :facepalm

:facepalm

And Kobe's 2009 and 2010 run was better than his 08 run :facepalm

Like you ever cared about handchecking :roll:

Couple any of those players with peak Shaq and they sweep the 2001 playoffs, your entire argument is team record. If you can't accept anything else you might aswell crown 2001 Shaq and 2001 Kobe the 2 greatest playoff runs ever.

[34-24 Footwork]

Like you ever cared about handchecking :roll:

Couple any of those players with peak Shaq and they sweep the 2001 playoffs, your entire argument is team record. If you can't accept anything else you might aswell crown 2001 Shaq and 2001 Kobe the 2 greatest playoff runs ever.

All of these hypotheticals. We know what Shaq did with Kobe and we know the numbers that Kobe put up And the rings won.

We know the success of Shaq without kobe, and the numbers that Penny, Wade, LeBron put up and the single ring won.

Hypotheticals are slightly embarrassing to read. People in here analyzing shit that never happened and basing arguments off of them. That's weird as fvck.

[ImKobe]

Why are you yelling him to stop posting. You can't seem to answer a single point that he's making. What does a team record have to do with individual play discussion ? Having Shaq on your team destroying the opposition and winning you games is great but we are focusing on the individual here.
All of the runs he posted were more impressive than Kobe's and as he said, quite a few of them aren't even close.

He's obviously always been biased against Kobe and has been discrediting his performances via some ridiculous criteria, much like you. I'm not yelling. Just giving advice.

Outside of Kobe and Shaq, the Lakers were pretty medicore from 00-02 and lacked any real depth (yeah, Fisher and Horry, but let's compare that supporting cast to some of the stacked teams from this era). Kobe carried a load just as big as Shaq did and performed better on the road and didn't allow opposing players drop 20+ on him and he had the better +/- numbers while in the game than Shaq.

This was before the hand-checking rules were changed and before the league started jacking up 3s to have better spacing, so Kobe's numbers become even more impressive. And every team he faced was a 50+ win team with at worst having a #9 ranked defense in the first round.

Kobe had a bigger impact than prime Shaq on the Playoffs. You guys love stats yet choose to ignore them when they don't fit your agenda.

Kobe dropped those numbers while winning 11 in a row against 50+ teams with no HCA in the WCF. 4 straight games on the road and he drops 39/10 a game on 50% shooting with b2b 45+pt/10+ reb games.

None of the other runs posted are as impressive, as Kobe not only put up great stats in a hand-check era, but his team also ended up winning the title and he ended up leading the most dominant Playoff team in NBA history in winshares and BPM. It is what it is. I'll give Shaq 2000 and 2002, but Kobe has 2001 both by numbers and video footage.

At the very worst it's neck and neck and arguable, but the obvious haters here are just going to go to the extreme to mess with me :coleman:

[ImKobe]

Like you ever cared about handchecking :roll:

Couple any of those players with peak Shaq and they sweep the 2001 playoffs, your entire argument is team record. If you can't accept anything else you might aswell crown 2001 Shaq and 2001 Kobe the 2 greatest playoff runs ever.

Why would I crown Shaq's 2001 run as the best ever, when he was a sidekick to Kobe in 3 out of 4 series that year?

And it's cute how you throw hypotheticals in the discussion. They didn't happen. Kobe's run did. Kobe and Shaq in 01 had the best Playoff record any superstar has had in a championship run in NBA history, yet you post guys that didn't even make the Finals and say they were better.

[ArbitraryWater]

All of these hypotheticals. We know what Shaq did with Kobe and we know the numbers that Kobe put up And the rings won.

We know the success of Shaq without kobe, and the numbers that Penny, Wade, LeBron put up and the single ring won.

Hypotheticals are slightly embarrassing to read. People in here analyzing shit that never happened and basing arguments off of them. That's weird as fvck.


We also know what the other guys did, with less help, and we don't need "15-1" to see they were every bit as good as Kobe and better individually. No shame in that.

[ImKobe]

We also know what the other guys did, with less help, and we don't need "15-1" to see they were every bit as good as Kobe and better individually. No shame in that.

Good for you. Too bad no objective fan's going to agree with you.

[Cold soul]

Okay, so you conceed Kobe's run being worse than Shaq in '00 and '01..

when did you start watching the NBA? Let say 2000.

Since 2000 these runs are undeniably better than 2001 Kobe:

Shaq 2000, 2001, 2002 arguable
Duncan 2003, 2005 arguable, 2007 arguable
Wade 2006
Dirk 2003 arguable, 2006 arguable, 2011
Kobe 2008
LeBron 2009, 2012, 2013, 2014 arguable
Durant 2012

It can't be top 5 since 2000.

I started watching around 1993-94 season. It was barely worse than Shaq postseason play only due to Shaq feasting on centers in the East. Kobe was the closer and was mad clutch during their three peat run Shaq would foul out he got into foul trouble often and Kobe would take the game over. Only year Duncan has good case in 03 which was all-time great. Sorry but Dirk, Durant, Wade have no case unless you factor in 2006 Finals Wade what he did against Mavs which was Jordan like.

[34-24 Footwork]

Why would I crown Shaq's 2001 run as the best ever, when he was a sidekick to Kobe in 3 out of 4 series that year?

And it's cute how you throw hypotheticals in the discussion. They didn't happen. Kobe's run did. Kobe and Shaq in 01 had the best Playoff record any superstar has had in a championship run in NBA history, yet you post guys that didn't even make the Finals and say they were better.

Wasn't just that year. Lol.

Pacers thought he was just as important as Shaq, so Jalen Rose intentionally injured him.

Kobe vs Allen Iverson
Kobe vs Jason Kidd/Kerry Kittles

Dude put up dominant performances against the eastern conference most important players too right after dominating the first three rounds.

[Cold soul]

Whats your top 5 you've seen?

I need to think about it first this is tough.

[34-24 Footwork]

Shaq dominating malnutritioned white centers in the east didn't impress me, to be honest.

[ArbitraryWater]

I started watching around 1993-94. It was barely worse than Shaq postseason play only due to Shaq feasting on centers in the East. Only year Duncan has good case in 03 which was all-time great. Sorry but Dirk, Durant, Wade have no case unless you factor in 2006 Finals Wade what he did against Mavs which was Jordan like.

And why wouldn't we factor in the 2006 finals?

Dirk (2011) and Durant (2012) can't be excluded either, you exclude them due to their name not being as big as the other, but play wise they were just as great.

You would think Shaq averaged 20 ppg in 2001 the way Kobe fans talk about that year :oldlol:

Kobe: 29/7/6 on 47%
Shaq: 30/15/3 on 56%

Shaq's overall run kills his.

Through the West:

Kobe: 32/7/6 on 49%
Shaq: 29/15/3 on 55%

Shaq's still better :oldlol:

1st Round:

Kobe: 25/4/8 on 48%
Shaq: 27/16/3 on 48%

Advtange: Wash

2nd Round:

Kobe: 35/9/4 on 47%
Shaq: 33/7/2 on 60%

Advantage: Shaq

WCF:

Kobe: 33/7/7 on 51%
Shaq: 27/13/3 on 54%

Advantage: Kobe

Finals:

Kobe: 25/8/6 on 42%
Shaq: 33/16/5 on 57%

Advantage: Shaq >>>

This isn't even close... throughout the first 3 rounds they were pretty neck to neck, one series goes to Kobe, one to Shaq, another draw.

In the finals the difference was monstrous, ending all discussions who to "give" this run to.

PLUS

Shaq put opponents in foul trouble, more doubled and tripled, created space, and opponents planned their game after HIM.

Kobe was spectacular in 2001, ATG run, but there's nothing wrong in being the 2nd best player to Shaq.

[34-24 Footwork]

Out of curiosity, how retarded is it to use Fg% when comparing the numbers of Shaq and Kobe? I see this done all the time. If I didn't watch basketball, I would think the 7'1 400lb behemoth would likely score easier buckets.

Is fg% really king in statistics? Cause this can get ugly...

[T_L_P]

I started watching around 1993-94 season. It was barely worse than Shaq postseason play only due to Shaq feasting on centers in the East. Kobe was the closer and was mad clutch during their three peat run Shaq would foul out he got into foul trouble often and Kobe would take the game over. Only year Duncan has good case in 03 which was all-time great. Sorry but Dirk, Durant, Wade have no case unless you factor in 2006 Finals Wade what he did against Mavs which was Jordan like.

That's an unarguable case, tbh.

Not even the blindest of Kobe stans would try claiming Kobe had a Playoff run as good as or better than 03 Duncan (not saying you are). :confusedshrug:

[Mass Debator]

Most impressive stretch was Linsanity and it's not even close.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And why wouldn't we factor in the 2006 finals?

Dirk (2011) and Durant (2012) can't be excluded either, you exclude them due to their name not being as big as the other, but play wise they were just as great.

You would think Shaq averaged 20 ppg in 2001 the way Kobe fans talk about that year :oldlol:

Kobe: 29/7/6 on 47%
Shaq: 30/15/3 on 56%

Shaq's overall run kills his.

Through the West:

Kobe: 32/7/6 on 49%
Shaq: 29/15/3 on 55%

Shaq's still better :oldlol:

1st Round:

Kobe: 25/4/8 on 48%
Shaq: 27/16/3 on 48%

Advtange: Wash

2nd Round:

Kobe: 35/9/4 on 47%
Shaq: 33/7/2 on 60%

Advantage: Shaq

WCF:

Kobe: 33/7/7 on 51%
Shaq: 27/13/3 on 54%

Advantage: Kobe

Finals:

Kobe: 25/8/6 on 42%
Shaq: 33/16/5 on 57%

Advantage: Shaq >>>

This isn't even close... throughout the first 3 rounds they were pretty neck to neck, one series goes to Kobe, one to Shaq, another draw.

In the finals the difference was monstrous, ending all discussions who to "give" this run to.

PLUS

Shaq put opponents in foul trouble, more doubled and tripled, created space, and opponents planned their game after HIM.

Kobe was spectacular in 2001, ATG run, but there's nothing wrong in being the 2nd best player to Shaq.
Educating these Kobe monsters. Good stuff, kid. :cheers:

[ImKobe]

Educating these Kobe monsters. Good stuff, kid. :cheers:
:sleeping

[Cold soul]

That's an unarguable case, tbh.

Not even the blindest of Kobe stans would try claiming Kobe had a Playoff run as good as or better than 03 Duncan (not saying you are). :confusedshrug:

I give Duncan edge in 03 but not big wide margin what Duncan did was amazing with really nobody around him.

[TheMarkMadsen]

And why wouldn't we factor in the 2006 finals?

Dirk (2011) and Durant (2012) can't be excluded either, you exclude them due to their name not being as big as the other, but play wise they were just as great.

You would think Shaq averaged 20 ppg in 2001 the way Kobe fans talk about that year :oldlol:

Kobe: 29/7/6 on 47%
Shaq: 30/15/3 on 56%

Shaq's overall run kills his.

Through the West:

Kobe: 32/7/6 on 49%
Shaq: 29/15/3 on 55%

Shaq's still better :oldlol:

1st Round:

Kobe: 25/4/8 on 48%
Shaq: 27/16/3 on 48%

Advtange: Wash

2nd Round:

Kobe: 35/9/4 on 47%
Shaq: 33/7/2 on 60%

Advantage: Shaq

WCF:

Kobe: 33/7/7 on 51%
Shaq: 27/13/3 on 54%

Advantage: Kobe

Finals:

Kobe: 25/8/6 on 42%
Shaq: 33/16/5 on 57%

Advantage: Shaq >>>

This isn't even close... throughout the first 3 rounds they were pretty neck to neck, one series goes to Kobe, one to Shaq, another draw.

In the finals the difference was monstrous, ending all discussions who to "give" this run to.

PLUS

Shaq put opponents in foul trouble, more doubled and tripled, created space, and opponents planned their game after HIM.

Kobe was spectacular in 2001, ATG run, but there's nothing wrong in being the 2nd best player to Shaq.


The bolded is laughable.

Kobe outscores, out rebounds Shaq while doubling his assist and it's advantage Shaq?

Lol

Even more laughable if you're going off your stats you typed since they are wrong.

Kobe dominated the WCSF & WCF that year, not really arguable.

[ArbitraryWater]

The bolded is laughable.

Kobe outscores, out rebounds Shaq while doubling his assist and it's advantage Shaq?

Lol

Even more laughable if you're going off your stats you typed since they are wrong.

Kobe dominated the WCSF & WCF that year, not really arguable.

And Shaq didn't dominate? :oldlol:

Like there's much of a difference in 2 pts/rbs/assist, especially since Shaq was much more efficient and twice the defensive changer. Call it a wash if you want to, doesn't change the finals/outcome.


Educating these Kobe monsters. Good stuff, kid. :cheers:

:cheers:

[Alamо]

Duncan 03

He had a stretch of games against the Lakers and Mavs where he was literally God



WCSF game 4: 36 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists
WCSF game 5: 27 points, 14 rebounds, 5 assists
WCSF game 6: 37 points, 16 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 blocks
WCF game 1: 40 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists
WCF game 2: 32 points, 15 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 blocks
WCF game 3: 34 points, 24 rebounds, 6 assists, 6 blocks, 2 steals

[SuperPippen]

Duncan in '03 really deserves so much more recognition. The man left a trail of carnage in his wake as he rampaged through the playoffs that year. On offense and defense.

He CLOSED OUT A FINALS WITH A QUADRUPLE DOUBLE. I have no idea how that is not talked about more. That is a GOAT level performance.

[aj1987]

Duncan in '03 really deserves so much more recognition. The man left a trail of carnage in his wake as he rampaged through the playoffs that year. On offense and defense.

He CLOSED OUT A FINALS WITH A QUADRUPLE DOUBLE. I have no idea how that is not talked about more. That is a GOAT level performance.
Nope.

[BuffaloBill]

Nope.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nejQMtkyLgY#t=360



He was robbed. He very clearly has 10 blocks in this video but the score keeper only counted 8.


Real heads know Tim Duncan is the lone holder of the finals quad double


:bowdown:

[ArbitraryWater]

Nope.

He did actually.. was only given 8, but he had 10 blocks.

[aj1987]

He did actually.. was only given 8, but he had 10 blocks.
20/20/10/8 =/= quad-double.

[ShawkFactory]

20/20/10/8 =/= quad-double.
What are you actually arguing right now...?

[ArbitraryWater]

20/20/10/8 =/= quad-double.

20/20/10/10 = quad-double.

[chazzy]

Like there's much of a difference in 2 pts/rbs/assist, especially since Shaq was much more efficient and twice the defensive changer.

They had the exact same efficiency. And Kobe had a 56.5 TS% advantage to Shaq's 52.6 TS% in the first round

[HOoopCityJones]

IsH, where Kobe don't get credit for shit.

[TheMarkMadsen]

IsH, where Kobe don't get credit for shit.

ISH, where leading your team in shot attempts and averaging 28ppg on b2b championship teams doesn't count because it only happened due to shaq even tho a decade later you do the same thing on better numbers

[dubeta]

IsH, where Kobe don't get credit for shit.

Sorry, we dont even give him credit for not getting credit

[Odinn]

There aren't many games in the playoffs so I can say 5+ is enough.


Tim Duncan in 2003
(last 3 games of WCS and first 3 games of WCF);
6 games; 34.3 ppg / 15.5 rpg / 5.3 apg / 2.2 bpg on .597 efg and .716 ft (42.83 eff / 31.0 gmsc)

Shaquille O'Neal in 2000
(entire NBA finals);
6 games; 38.0 ppg / 16.7 rpg / 2.3 apg / 2.7 bpg on .611 efg and .387 ft (38.83 eff / 30.6 gmsc)

Kobe Bryant in 2010
(entire WC finals);
6 games; 33.7 ppg / 7.2 rpg / 8.3 apg / 1.2 bpg on .589 efg and .881 ft (36.67 eff / 28.8 gmsc)

LeBron James in 2012
(last 3 games of ECS and first e games of ECF);
6 games; 33.0 ppg / 10.8 rpg / 6.5 apg / 1.7 spg on .558 efg and .714 ft (37.17 eff / 28.7 gmsc)


IMO, TD is the best of them and the others don't have much of a case against TD with the given respective stretches.
But rather than being a stan / acting like a stan, we should appreciate the level of these players, like I do. I could have just posted about TD instead of calling out their respective strecthes.
Would you look at those numbers? Do you really think there can be a healthy logic to ignore their greatness?