Derrick Rose's 2011 MVP Season vs 2015 Stephen Curry? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

1987_Lakers

03-11-2015, 02:22 AM

Per 36 doesn't work. When Rose played Curry this year, it was the first time he played more than 36 minutes. Curry got tired before Rose did. Very different if Curry could play more minutes, but it doesn't seem that way. But his team is much better offensively, he has waaaay more space to work with (this greatly affects efficiency) and he doesn't even have to guard great guards because of Klay. I bet you Curry gets tired if he has to guard Westbrook in the first round. But will he even guard him.

Take away GSW's shooters and finishers and the stats would be far worse than Rose's. There is a reason Curry was never considered elite before this and Rose was at that level four years ago - They are the same age. And Rose was improving at a much bigger rate than Curry and Westbrook - all three the same age, I believe. They are peaking now and perhaps should surpass the 22 year old Rose level of play. Good for the game if they keep it up.

Maybe Curry is more efficient because he is a flat out better shooter than Rose. Curry is the GOAT when it comes to 3 point shooting, Rose has always been a mediocre 3 point shooter.

DMAVS41

03-11-2015, 02:22 AM

Per 36 doesn't work. When Rose played Curry this year, it was the first time he played more than 36 minutes. Curry got tired before Rose did. Very different if Curry could play more minutes, but it doesn't seem that way. But his team is much better offensively, he has waaaay more space to work with (this greatly affects efficiency) and he doesn't even have to guard great guards because of Klay. I bet you Curry gets tired if he has to guard Westbrook in the first round. But will he even guard him.

Take away GSW's shooters and finishers and the stats would be far worse than Rose's. There is a reason Curry was never considered elite before this and Rose was at that level four years ago - They are the same age. And Rose was improving at a much bigger rate than Curry and Westbrook - all three the same age, I believe. They are peaking now and perhaps should surpass the 22 year old Rose level of play. Good for the game if they keep it up.

At least stop lying.

Stats would be much worse?

Curry averaged 24/4/8 60% TS over his last 2 years before this season. His numbers are not a product of having an elite team. He's just an awesome player flat out.

Curry this year has improved his playmaking a bit and definitely his toughness and defense as well.

This year's Curry just shits on Rose. He plays better offense and defense...and everything supports it.

SyRyanYang

03-11-2015, 02:29 AM

Per 36 doesn't work. When Rose played Curry this year, it was the first time he played more than 36 minutes. Curry got tired before Rose did. Very different if Curry could play more minutes, but it doesn't seem that way. But his team is much better offensively, he has waaaay more space to work with (this greatly affects efficiency) and he doesn't even have to guard great guards because of Klay. I bet you Curry gets tired if he has to guard Westbrook in the first round. But will he even guard him.

Take away GSW's shooters and finishers and the stats would be far worse than Rose's. There is a reason Curry was never considered elite before this and Rose was at that level four years ago - They are the same age. And Rose was improving at a much bigger rate than Curry and Westbrook - all three the same age, I believe. They are peaking now and perhaps should surpass the 22 year old Rose level of play. Good for the game if they keep it up.

lol what. I thought you were a good poster.

Curry averaged 38.2 and 36.5 minutes the past 2 seasons, he's playing less now because the Warriors are such a good team now and he's a big part behind their success.

How does shooters open up space for perimeter players? Post threats do that and Warriors don't have a presence in the post.

Curry, much like Nash who peak after 30, doesn't rely on athleticism, this type of players usually peak later than guys like Russ, Rose, AI etc. who fade away after 30.

Prime_Shaq

03-11-2015, 02:45 AM

Curry.

Pointguard

03-11-2015, 01:24 PM

lol what. I thought you were a good poster.

Curry averaged 38.2 and 36.5 minutes the past 2 seasons, he's playing less now because the Warriors are such a good team now and he's a big part behind their success.
I definitely think he's great. Don't get me wrong and I want him to win MVP. I saw him play against Westbrook and he got tired. I saw him play against Rose, and he got tired. I only saw like three other games. So its a legit concern because he doesn't play like either one of those players. How do you explain it?

How does shooters open up space for perimeter players? Post threats do that and Warriors don't have a presence in the post.
Huh??? Few teams really have a strong post presence. Shooters keep players honest and near designated players. GS lives off of this principle. Atlanta and SA live off of this principle. Its the way the winning teams play the game now. But if this is foggy to you let me know and I'll explain it.

Curry, much like Nash who peak after 30, doesn't rely on athleticism, this type of players usually peak later than guys like Russ, Rose, AI etc. who fade away after 30.
A lot of shooters peak a little late. My point was that Rose came in the league better than them and when healthy improved at a more significant rate.

Pointguard

03-11-2015, 01:34 PM

Curry this year has improved his playmaking a bit and definitely his toughness and defense as well.

This year's Curry just shits on Rose. He plays better offense and defense...and everything supports it.
:lol Rose with miniscus issues at 70% of himself, had Curry's teammates not even looking for him at the end of the game - defense. Chicago went to their money man to end the game in overtime. Totally disposes your legitimacy.

DMAVS41

03-11-2015, 03:59 PM

:lol Rose with miniscus issues at 70% of himself, had Curry's teammates not even looking for him at the end of the game - defense. Chicago went to their money man to end the game in overtime. Totally disposes your legitimacy.

Yes...because that one game means a lot.

Dude...Curry is better on both ends of the floor...and his team is better with him and worse without him compare to Rose.

He's shooting an absurd 8% higher TS and his advanced stats like ortg and drtg and rapm blow Rose out of the water.

He's better on all fronts, quite clearly.

Eye test, stats, advanced stats, plus minus...

It just doesn't get more clear cut than that.

And all he has to do is not choke about as horribly as possible in the playoffs and he'll easily surpass Rose there as well.

Just give it a rest. You chose a bitch made player more worried about going to a graduation ceremony than winning games. Give up...

Dresta

03-11-2015, 04:14 PM

I may be the minority, but they're pretty equal in my opinion.

The fact that Curry plays less minutes than Rose tells you the strength of this year's GS team.

In fact, Curry will have the least MPG of any MVPs in recent memory if not NBA history....
Yet if Curry were as inefficient as Rose then he'd be playing a good deal more minutes as well to compensate for the loss in point differential that would result.

ArbitraryWater

03-11-2015, 04:16 PM

Curry and it's not close.

Pointguard

03-11-2015, 04:25 PM

Yes...because that one game means a lot.
Yes, because I told you about 30 times (not an exaggeration) that this is what Rose does to players. And you being like super hard headed never caught on. Curry, just like every elite PG that year had a game they would prefer to forget against Rose. And guess what Rose at 70% still has bragging rights like that. Curry, flat out doesn't come close to anything like that. Show me a stellar defensive point guard that can do what Rose did over two years. Shumpert was close...

Wait, let me guess, you are going to start repeating the same nonsense.

Dude...Curry is better on both ends of the floor...and his team is better with him and worse without him compare to Rose.

He's shooting an absurd 8% higher TS and his advanced stats like ortg and drtg and rapm blow Rose out of the water.
:lol

Like I said before if 8% is high what is Terry's 60% higher than Dirks in the finals mean. And well over a 120% in the last three games of each finals. And that great RAPM that has CJ Watson better than Rose.

Eye test, stats,
You have no eye test ability. None what so ever. That's why you bring up TS% to compare guards. And resort to stats on games on national television. You're a dead Ray Charles that never had a keyboard.

Just give it a rest. You chose a bitch made player more worried about going to a graduation ceremony than winning games. Give up...
Daaaaam Helen Keller at least get your info right before you start hating inappropriately.

HurricaneKid

03-11-2015, 04:50 PM

2011 D Rose -
Ranked ~#34 in the league in RAPM
Bulls were +6.1 points/100 poss without him

2015 S Curry
Ranks #1 in RAPM
GSW -1.3 pts/100 poss without him

DRose won the award because Tibbs and the Bulls bench (Korver, Taj, CJ, Asik) were >>> expectations. He didn't win the award because of his personal contributions to the team.

And that 8% differential in TS% is ENORMOUS.

DMAVS41

03-11-2015, 09:39 PM

Yes, because I told you about 30 times (not an exaggeration) that this is what Rose does to players. And you being like super hard headed never caught on. Curry, just like every elite PG that year had a game they would prefer to forget against Rose. And guess what Rose at 70% still has bragging rights like that. Curry, flat out doesn't come close to anything like that. Show me a stellar defensive point guard that can do what Rose did over two years. Shumpert was close...

Wait, let me guess, you are going to start repeating the same nonsense.

:lol

Like I said before if 8% is high what is Terry's 60% higher than Dirks in the finals mean. And well over a 120% in the last three games of each finals. And that great RAPM that has CJ Watson better than Rose.

You have no eye test ability. None what so ever. That's why you bring up TS% to compare guards. And resort to stats on games on national television. You're a dead Ray Charles that never had a keyboard.

Daaaaam Helen Keller at least get your info right before you start hating inappropriately.

Just read others posts.

We aren't talking about small samples....and I have no clue what the **** you are talking about in the finals. Dirk was clearly the best Mavs player in that series...arguing against that shows how ****ing dumb you actually are.

Oh...and you obviously don't know anything about math...what the **** are you talking about...120%????????

Rose does what to players? We've seen virtually nothing from Rose that means anything.

He was a good, but not great player in 11 that choked horribly when it mattered most.

The rest of his career has just been injuries, truly retarded comments in the media, and more air time in commercials.

He might be like 90% as good as Kevin Johnson was at his peak.

Nothing to note other than he had a really good regular season one year and has done absolutely nothing of note other than that...and really it's not much to note. Just a good season by a player. That's about it.

The Iron Sheik

03-11-2015, 09:43 PM

curry, but that doesn't mean Rose didn't deserve his MVP. he earned his mvp and deserved every vote he got

i mean come on, we're talking about a pg who's arguably the best shooter ever and has elite ball handling and passing skills.

sirkeelma

03-11-2015, 10:07 PM

The answer is already on the title.

"MVP Season"

beastee

03-11-2015, 10:10 PM

The answer is already on the title.

"MVP Season"
This. Both were great for their teams. D. Rose was insanely clutch in 2011 and Curry has been great for the Warriors. Why is everything a competition?

greymatter

03-11-2015, 10:21 PM

Curry's impact for his team is greater. The Warriors are +15pts per 100 possessions better when he's on the floor vs off. He is simply a better all-around talent. He has superior IQ, passing, ball-handling, shooting, and is a marginally better defender too.

Dave3

03-11-2015, 10:42 PM

Like I said before if 8% is high what is Terry's 60% higher than Dirks in the finals mean.
:biggums: Terry shot 7% higher than Dirk (TS%) in the finals, not 60%. And it means very little considering their volume wasn't very close at 26 ppg to 18 ppg. The TS% argument matters a lot more when, you know, the players score at a similar volume? This is like comparing DeAndre Jordan to Kobe to try and minimize the importance of FG%.

DMAVS41

03-11-2015, 10:43 PM

:biggums: Terry shot 7% higher than Dirk (TS%) in the finals, not 60%. And it means very little considering their volume wasn't very close 26 ppg to 18 ppg. The TS% argument matters a lot more when, you know, the players score at a similar volume? This is like comparing DeAndre Jordan to Kobe to try and minimize the importance of FG%.

This.

Pointguard

03-11-2015, 11:34 PM

2011 D Rose -
Ranked ~#34 in the league in RAPM
Bulls were +6.1 points/100 poss without him

Since I know you are Dmavs un-seeing eye dog... Didn't CJ Watson have a better RAPM than Rose. Great stat!!!! But I have three hilarious threads where you and Dmav's totally embarrass yourselves with this RAPM. Claiming Watson was better defensively than Rose. CJ Watson would have a starting job in the league if he could guard starters. He barely can guard 2nd unit guards. Rose was put on Wade in the finals.

DRose won the award because Tibbs and the Bulls bench (Korver, Taj, CJ, Asik) were >>> expectations. He didn't win the award because of his personal contributions to the team.

This is why watching the games is so much more important than looking at stats. Korver was disappointing that year. Shot went south after the AS game. Without Rose the only one that showed much the next year or two was Taj.

Just read others posts.
We aren't talking about small samples....and I have no clue what the **** you are talking about in the finals. Dirk was clearly the best Mavs player in that series...arguing against that shows how ****ing dumb you actually are.

Bwhahahahaaa, you are such a lost clown... you are proving my point. TS% is crap. But I know it takes a looong time for you to catch on... about four or five years?

Rose does what to players? We've seen virtually nothing from Rose that means anything.

What is this... well over two dozen times? Name me a starting perimeter player that had defensively blasted the elite at his position continuously almost unanimously. Even when he played at 70% it rarely happened. It rarely happens in the history of the game. And you want to act like his defense wasn't good. I still don't know of a point guard that remotely came close to guarding a healthy Wade like Rose did in the finals. Heck, I don't know of any player doing that.

But this requires you and Hurricane Kid having eyes worth seeing with.

He was a good, but not great player in 11 that choked horribly when it mattered most. You are the desperate hater I've ever seen. You want to believe this so hard you repeat it over and over. How many times have there been a 22 year old win two playoff series on his back??? Maybe three or four times in the history of the game? And all of the other guys had a team that could break a trap. Then Rose, without another player stepping up, guarded Wade, a guy that totally devoured a dirk lead Dallas team himself in the finals, down. He had a legit claim to being tired.

Since you went there... A choke is what Dirk did. A sucky defensive team - the worst in the playoffs - shutting him down. Rose at least, had a fight in him. And Dirk was much older.

The rest of his career has just been injuries, truly retarded comments in the media, and more air time in commercials.

He might be like 90% as good as Kevin Johnson was at his peak. Dude, you don't watch games. You know nothing about KJ.
You are an obsessive hater. One of the worse on this board. And when you first came on you weren't a limited poster. But you now consume yourself like you are helpless to control yourself. Seriously, its pass tired.

Pointguard

03-11-2015, 11:44 PM

:biggums: Terry shot 7% higher than Dirk (TS%) in the finals, not 60%. And it means very little considering their volume wasn't very close at 26 ppg to 18 ppg. The TS% argument matters a lot more when, you know, the players score at a similar volume? This is like comparing DeAndre Jordan to Kobe to try and minimize the importance of FG%.
I meant 100% percentage points.

The scoring was very similar in the wins. I don't have the TS% numbers.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games.

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% FG for Terry
34/86 395% FG for Dirk

So we are comparing similar outputs at least in the games that mattered most for Dallas. Those numbers are bizarre and this is Dirk in best moment in his long career.

SyRyanYang

03-11-2015, 11:49 PM

I meant 100% percentage points.

The scoring was very similar in the wins. I don't have the TS% numbers.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games.

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% FG for Terry
34/86 395% FG for Dirk

So we are comparing similar outputs at least in the games that mattered most for Dallas. Those numbers are bizarre and this is Dirk in best moment in his long career.

Kyle Kover has a higher TS% than anybody else in the league right now.
TS%, like all stats, should be used within the context. Comparing players at different positions and plays different roles is just stupid.

Rose and Curry however are both PGs and best players on their respective team, which makes the TS comparison valid.

tpols

03-12-2015, 12:16 AM

You are the desperate hater I've ever seen. You want to believe this so hard you repeat it over and over. How many times have there been a 22 year old win two playoff series on his back??? Maybe three or four times in the history of the game? And all of the other guys had a team that could break a trap. Then Rose, without another player stepping up, guarded Wade, a guy that totally devoured a dirk lead Dallas team himself in the finals, down. He had a legit claim to being tired.

Since you went there... A choke is what Dirk did. A sucky defensive team - the worst in the playoffs - shutting him down. Rose at least, had a fight in him. And Dirk was much older.

True that...

A choke is an unexpected bad performance from a great player.. one that has no logical explanation.

If a perimeter player has little offensive help.. and he's facing an extremely elite defensive team with a speciality in perimeter defense.. it's only logical to assume he won't have great offensive numbers. Both conditions are satisfied.

On the other hand, if a player is playing the 20th ranked defense.. and has a team that has dominated with their offense all year, it's only logical to assume that player would perform well offensively. If not.. there's really no explanation and it has to be considered a choke. I know some guys came back from injury.. but Stephen jackson coming back? That's gonna shut down your offense..? No. That's a choke.

even dirk in 2011 godmode shot what 41% against the heats defense? After dropping 45 on 15 shots against the Thunder in the wcf. thats what their defense was. It could limit even top 20 players all time to poor shooting compared to what they did before. So you can't call rose a choke. It makes perfect sense why it happened.

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 01:27 AM

True that...

A choke is an unexpected bad performance from a great player.. one that has no logical explanation.

If a perimeter player has little offensive help.. and he's facing an extremely elite defensive team with a speciality in perimeter defense.. it's only logical to assume he won't have great offensive numbers. Both conditions are satisfied.

On the other hand, if a player is playing the 20th ranked defense.. and has a team that has dominated with their offense all year, it's only logical to assume that player would perform well offensively. If not.. there's really no explanation and it has to be considered a choke. I know some guys came back from injury.. but Stephen jackson coming back? That's gonna shut down your offense..? No. That's a choke.

even dirk in 2011 godmode shot what 41% against the heats defense? After dropping 45 on 15 shots against the Thunder in the wcf. thats what their defense was. It could limit even top 20 players all time to poor shooting compared to what they did before. So you can't call rose a choke. It makes perfect sense why it happened.

What Rose did in the 4th qtrs of the ECF in 11 is the epitome of a choke. He was dreadful.

I'm not talking about his overall play...that was just shit.

But bricking shot after shot in crunch time and missing huge ft's....shooting like 20% for the series in the 4th....terrible turnovers.

What else do you call it? If that wasn't choking....then nothing is choking.

I won't even get into the Dirk stuff because it isn't relevant...and offers no context whatsoever.

But you can't have it both ways. You can't claim the Warriors weren't that good compared to the Heat...and then talk about how shitty Rose's help was. Doesn't even make sense. If the Heat were that much better...it just proves my point on how much help Rose had.

Rose played worse than Dirk in those 2 series...one player saw his team get laughed off the floor...the other saw his team enter each 4th qtr with a chance to win.

And you claim the Heat were far better. How did that happen then? How did the Bulls keep it so close with Rose just factually playing worse than Dirk?

LOL...you guys can't keep anything straight.

You really need to just come back to reality.

Dirk puts up 20/11/2 51% TS 2 steals 1 block 2 turnovers with 111 ortg 109 drtg

Rose puts up 23/4/7 44% ts 1 steal 0 blocks 4 turnovers with 93 ortg 107 drtg

How can you say Dirk played worse? Also, how the **** did the Bulls keep it so close against a team you claim was much better than the 07 Warriors if Rose had shit help compared to Dirk?

Also, Dirk didn't "choke"...he just played like crap. Rose did both...not only did he play worse than Dirk, but he choked. You didn't see Dirk crumbling in crunch time repeatedly in that series because the games weren't even that close.

I know you are smarter than this....just take the loss.

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 01:33 AM

Since I know you are Dmavs un-seeing eye dog... Didn't CJ Watson have a better RAPM than Rose. Great stat!!!! But I have three hilarious threads where you and Dmav's totally embarrass yourselves with this RAPM. Claiming Watson was better defensively than Rose. CJ Watson would have a starting job in the league if he could guard starters. He barely can guard 2nd unit guards. Rose was put on Wade in the finals.

This is why watching the games is so much more important than looking at stats. Korver was disappointing that year. Shot went south after the AS game. Without Rose the only one that showed much the next year or two was Taj.

Bwhahahahaaa, you are such a lost clown... you are proving my point. TS% is crap. But I know it takes a looong time for you to catch on... about four or five years?

What is this... well over two dozen times? Name me a starting perimeter player that had defensively blasted the elite at his position continuously almost unanimously. Even when he played at 70% it rarely happened. It rarely happens in the history of the game. And you want to act like his defense wasn't good. I still don't know of a point guard that remotely came close to guarding a healthy Wade like Rose did in the finals. Heck, I don't know of any player doing that.

But this requires you and Hurricane Kid having eyes worth seeing with.
You are the desperate hater I've ever seen. You want to believe this so hard you repeat it over and over. How many times have there been a 22 year old win two playoff series on his back??? Maybe three or four times in the history of the game? And all of the other guys had a team that could break a trap. Then Rose, without another player stepping up, guarded Wade, a guy that totally devoured a dirk lead Dallas team himself in the finals, down. He had a legit claim to being tired.

Since you went there... A choke is what Dirk did. A sucky defensive team - the worst in the playoffs - shutting him down. Rose at least, had a fight in him. And Dirk was much older.
Dude, you don't watch games. You know nothing about KJ.
You are an obsessive hater. One of the worse on this board. And when you first came on you weren't a limited poster. But you now consume yourself like you are helpless to control yourself. Seriously, its pass tired.

Just take the loss.

Rose hasn't done anything of note in his career...the only reason it's thought of as more than it is...is because of the year he did it.

If he was having his exact same season right now this year...he wouldn't even finish top 5 in MVP voting.

It's just another good but not great season by a NBA player....which ended with this:

23/4/7 44% TS (hahahahaahahahaah) and repeated choking in big moments late in close games.

Again...not special. Just take the loss.

I also love how Rose's best year is being compared to Dirk's worst playoff series ever...and Dirk still comes out on top. Priceless....

Dude....Rose has played 29 playoff games in his career. He's won two playoff series against mediocre teams...he played one of the worst series I can remember a star playing in the ECF. He has one really good regular season.

I mean...what do you think makes him so special off that. The list of NBA players that have done that and more is hundreds deep.

The only differentiating factor is his MVP...which he deserved, but that doesn't make him better than he is.

And I don't think you know much about Kevin Johnson...the dude was a ****ing beast in the early 90's. And he actually did for more than 1 year. The fact that you think Rose is on another level than KJ just shows how little you actually know about the game.

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 09:01 AM

Rose and Curry however are both PGs and best players on their respective team, which makes the TS comparison valid.
Naaah, still isn't a top 20 criteria for PGs. If Westbrook goes up against Curry in the first round TS% will not be a factor at all.

Dave3

03-12-2015, 10:10 AM

I meant 100% percentage points.
I don't know what that means, but in that same sentence you called the difference between Curry/Rose only 8%, not 80%..

The scoring was very similar in the wins. I don't have the TS% numbers.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games.

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

So you're taking the already small sample size of 6 games, and further cutting that in half to prove a point? That's cherry picking at it's finest dude.

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% FG for Terry
34/86 395% FG for Dirk

So we are comparing similar outputs at least in the games that mattered most for Dallas. Those numbers are bizarre and this is Dirk in best moment in his long career.
You say similar outputs and don't give me anything more than FGM. Something tells me Dirk shot way more FTs and at a better percentage than Terry too, making their actual efficiency much closer than you're showing. And again, picking a sample size that small can prove anything. I can probably find 4 games that Draymond Green outplayed Curry, or Noah outplayed Rose (in 2011) and it would prove nothing.

Dave3

03-12-2015, 10:17 AM

Naaah, still isn't a top 20 criteria for PGs. If Westbrook goes up against Curry in the first round TS% will not be a factor at all.
Yet Westbrook's crazy hot streak and huge stats haven't resulted in some type of ridiculous win streak. You don't think if he was shooting closer to 50% than 41% that his team would be doing better? A couple possessions each game matter when you lose close ones.

HurricaneKid

03-12-2015, 10:37 AM

And LOL at all this "Rose is such a great defender" talk. Now you are taking credit for having Asik, Noah, and Taj protect the hoop behind him.

Since I know you are Dmavs un-seeing eye dog... Didn't CJ Watson have a better RAPM than Rose. Great stat!!!! But I have three hilarious threads where you and Dmav's totally embarrass yourselves with this RAPM. Claiming Watson was better defensively than Rose. CJ Watson would have a starting job in the league if he could guard starters. He barely can guard 2nd unit guards. Rose was put on Wade in the finals.

No. He didn't. I don't know where you got that from. Noah and Deng were very close. But never CJ.

And Rose has never made the Finals.

This is why watching the games is so much more important than looking at stats. Korver was disappointing that year. Shot went south after the AS game. Without Rose the only one that showed much the next year or two was Taj.

You are so ridiculous.

Shot went south after the all star game? HE SHOT >48% from 3 after the AS GAME.

Bwhahahahaaa, you are such a lost clown... you are proving my point. TS% is crap. But I know it takes a looong time for you to catch on... about four or five years?

And I'm out.

HurricaneKid

03-12-2015, 10:40 AM

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% FG for Terry
34/86 395% FG for Dirk

Nevermind posting here. Time to go to your remedial math class.

funnystuff

03-12-2015, 10:50 AM

Sigh now even Laker fans are stanning Curry for MVP.

With Kobe on their franchise im sure the disappointment, when Curry doesnt win it, will feel right at home.

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 01:30 PM

What Rose did in the 4th qtrs of the ECF in 11 is the epitome of a choke. He was dreadful.

I'm not talking about his overall play...that was just shit.

But bricking shot after shot in crunch time and missing huge ft's....shooting like 20% for the series in the 4th....terrible turnovers.

What else do you call it? If that wasn't choking....then nothing is choking.

I won't even get into the Dirk stuff because it isn't relevant...and offers no context whatsoever.

But you can't have it both ways. You can't claim the Warriors weren't that good compared to the Heat...and then talk about how shitty Rose's help was. Doesn't even make sense. If the Heat were that much better...it just proves my point on how much help Rose had.

Rose played worse than Dirk in those 2 series...one player saw his team get laughed off the floor...the other saw his team enter each 4th qtr with a chance to win.

And you claim the Heat were far better. How did that happen then? How did the Bulls keep it so close with Rose just factually playing worse than Dirk?

LOL...you guys can't keep anything straight.

You really need to just come back to reality.

Dirk puts up 20/11/2 51% TS 2 steals 1 block 2 turnovers with 111 ortg 109 drtg

Rose puts up 23/4/7 44% ts 1 steal 0 blocks 4 turnovers with 93 ortg 107 drtg

How can you say Dirk played worse? Also, how the **** did the Bulls keep it so close against a team you claim was much better than the 07 Warriors if Rose had shit help compared to Dirk?

Also, Dirk didn't "choke"...he just played like crap. Rose did both...not only did he play worse than Dirk, but he choked. You didn't see Dirk crumbling in crunch time repeatedly in that series because the games weren't even that close.

I know you are smarter than this....just take the loss.
Dirk did the worst choke ever. Dude not only played horrible against the worst defense in the playoffs, he abandoned ship. He forgot he was the leader of his team or the best player on his team. And it didn't stop there. He questioned his whole game. If it was boxing he got in the ring and questioned the ref as to why he had gloves on. He didn't even fight. He wasn't even a competitor against a team that didn't value defense. He wasn't even aggressive or a contributor in his team last stand against an 8 seed With Horrible Defense. At least fight or be aggressive. An identity Crisis is the worst thing possible.

And Dirk pulled this off with other players stepping up. In Rose case there weren't other players stepping up in his stead. In fact the second and third best players were benched in the fourth quarter twice. Which encouraged more pressure on Rose by the best perimeter defensive team in the league.

greatest-ever

03-12-2015, 01:46 PM

Curry pretty easily. I'm not sure what Rose's argument is, he doesn't have an advantage in offense or defense.

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 01:51 PM

Nevermind posting here. Time to go to your remedial math class.
Great, now I got dmav's blind follower with little cognitive ability acting uppity. You're no Hurricane kid, you're a brainless scared crow following Dorothy.

HurricaneKid

03-12-2015, 02:14 PM

Great, now I got dmav's blind follower with little cognitive ability acting uppity. You're no Hurricane kid, you're a brainless scared crow following Dorothy.

DMavs and I disagree on plenty. But we always seem to come together when it comes to your hilariously ill argued positions.

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 02:27 PM

Dirk did the worst choke ever. Dude not only played horrible against the worst defense in the playoffs, he abandoned ship. He forgot he was the leader of his team or the best player on his team. And it didn't stop there. He questioned his whole game. If it was boxing he got in the ring and questioned the ref as to why he had gloves on. He didn't even fight. He wasn't even a competitor against a team that didn't value defense. He wasn't even aggressive or a contributor in his team last stand against an 8 seed With Horrible Defense. At least fight or be aggressive. An identity Crisis is the worst thing possible.

And Dirk pulled this off with other players stepping up. In Rose case there weren't other players stepping up in his stead. In fact the second and third best players were benched in the fourth quarter twice. Which encouraged more pressure on Rose by the best perimeter defensive team in the league.

Again...how then was it possible for the Bulls to go into crunch time in every game with a chance to win if Rose had no help compared to Dirk.

Why did the Mavs get laughed off the floor against a far inferior team if Dirk had guys stepping up?

Do you not see the corner you've backed yourself into???????

And....well...just because...I'll post the pain again:

Dirk puts up 20/11/2 51% TS 2 steals 1 block 2 turnovers with 111 ortg 109 drtg

Rose puts up 23/4/7 44% ts 1 steal 0 blocks 4 turnovers with 93 ortg 107 drtg

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Yea...Rose was much better.

And those numbers for Rose don't even do it justice. We aren't talking about the missed huge ft's, 20% shooting in the 4th qtrs, horrid turnovers, freezing out open teammates to launch 29 bad shots.

If Dirk had played like he did in a series his team had a chance...it would have been much worse. Not Rose bad, but worse...the fact that the Mavs got laughed off the floor just shows what a weak team it was at it's core.

The Bulls, however, showed how good they actually were. Their star played simply as bad as possible...and they still had chances each game to beat prime Lebron, Wade, and Bosh...but they didn't because Rose sucked. Plain and simple.

But it's hard to beat a team of prime Wade, Lebron, and Bosh all healthy....but it takes an all time great like Dirk to do that.

Not some over-rated guard maybe slightly worse than peak Kevin Johnson.

:coleman:

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 02:30 PM

DMavs and I disagree on plenty. But we always seem to come together when it comes to your hilariously ill argued positions.

:cheers:

I love how he thinks we are the same person or we agree a lot. Just hilarious.

Not enough is being made of his claim that TS% isn't a top 20 item for guards in today's game.

Efficiency isn't top 20????????? Holy shit!

It might be the single most important thing in today's game.

SuperPippen

03-12-2015, 02:32 PM

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 02:38 PM

First of all, DMAVS and HurricaneKid are the textbook haters. Any logical point they may have to make is counteracted by the fact that they are clearly extremely biased.

Anyway, it's closer than people think, but I would take Curry this year over Rose in 2011. But there are two things worth noting:

1. Curry has a definitively better team around him. Pretty much at the top in terms of both offense and defense. I mean seriously, his shooting guard just broke the record for most points in NBA history scored in a quarter. Do you know who Rose's SG was? Keith f*cking Bogans, who averaged a pathetic 4.4 points on 40% shooting, to go along with mediocre defense. I believe I remember a statistic where the bulls had a ridiculous 95% winning percentage anytime Bogans scored over 5 points. That right there should tell you something.

2. People act as though 2011 was good as Rose was ever going to get, which is ridiculous. He was 22. At the very beginning of what should have been his prime. He was in his third season, and still had so much room to improve. The next year, he struggled throughout with nagging injuries, but even then it was clear that he was taking another step as a distributor. His improvement in that regard even throughout the injury plagued 2012 season was apparent.

Curry right now is at likely at his apex. So are Russell Westbrook and Chris Paul. Unfortunately, we never got to see a peak Derrick Rose, and we probably never will.

Standard shifting of the goal posts fallacy.

We aren't talking about some hypothetical Rose in the future...we are talking about Rose in 11 vs Curry now. You have now joined the standard Rose argument nonsense once they (now you) start losing the argument...you guys start talking about how young Rose was and how he'd get better. I agree with those things if he wasn't so injury prone, but it's not relevant to how good he actually was in 11.

You don't earn extra points in the games for being young or old or black or white...it's just about what you do on the ****ing court.

We are comparing Curry this year to Rose in 11...and it's abundantly clear to anyone who knows the game or isn't a huge Rose stan that current Curry's regular season play is far better than Rose's in 11.

Again, everything supports this.

Eye test, raw stats, on/off, advanced plus minus, rapm, advanced stats, wins...everything.

Still don't understand the teammates argument.

Curry was putting up damn near identical numbers the past 2 years with worse teams around him. Teams probably not overall as good as the 11 Bulls.

So why is he now dependent on teammates? When the last 2 years combined before this year he was a 24/4/8 60%TS player?

The wins are a product of his team strength...his individual play is not.

Sorry...

And it's not hating to say Rose was never better than peak Kevin Johnson...or that 11 Rose wouldn't even crack top 5 MVP voting this year.

It's just reality.

Sorry if you don't like it.

mehyaM24

03-12-2015, 02:45 PM

Great, now I got dmav's blind follower with little cognitive ability acting uppity. You're no Hurricane kid, you're a brainless scared crow following Dorothy.
nah you're just proving yourself to be a halfwit incapable of thought or reason. thus far, curry has the numbers (impact edge) & eye test.

the MERE fact you're comparing terry to dirk JUST to make your "point" says it all. i honestly cant believe i thought you were a good poster. :facepalm

tpols

03-12-2015, 02:53 PM

Again...how then was it possible for the Bulls to go into crunch time in every game with a chance to win if Rose had no help compared to Dirk.

Why did the Mavs get laughed off the floor against a far inferior team if Dirk had guys stepping up?

Do you not see the corner you've backed yourself into???????

And....well...just because...I'll post the pain again:

Dirk puts up 20/11/2 51% TS 2 steals 1 block 2 turnovers with 111 ortg 109 drtg

Rose puts up 23/4/7 44% ts 1 steal 0 blocks 4 turnovers with 93 ortg 107 drtg

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Yea...Rose was much better.

And those numbers for Rose don't even do it justice. We aren't talking about the missed huge ft's, 20% shooting in the 4th qtrs, horrid turnovers, freezing out open teammates to launch 29 bad shots.

If Dirk had played like he did in a series his team had a chance...it would have been much worse. Not Rose bad, but worse...the fact that the Mavs got laughed off the floor just shows what a weak team it was at it's core.

The Bulls, however, showed how good they actually were. Their star played simply as bad as possible...and they still had chances each game to beat prime Lebron, Wade, and Bosh...but they didn't because Rose sucked. Plain and simple.

But it's hard to beat a team of prime Wade, Lebron, and Bosh all healthy....but it takes an all time great like Dirk to do that.

Not some over-rated guard maybe slightly worse than peak Kevin Johnson.

:coleman:

D mavs I don't get your logic..

Dirk was thrown off his game and went into passive mode.. he was bullied by some guys smaller than him.. intimidated by their ghetto street trash talk and physical play most likely. And he couldn't even attack to open the floor for his teammates.

Rose on the other hand attacked the paint relentessly.. a little David going up against three cowardly goliaths. Busting his ass and shaking the heat defense up putting Miami's rebounds out of position.. Creating a void so that booze and Noah could do the only thing they're good for essentially.. putbacks. Do you know how many rose assists he had? An ABSURD amount

simply put one was a valiant effort while the other was a massive chokejob.

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 02:55 PM

I don't know what that means, but in that same sentence you called the difference between Curry/Rose only 8%, not 80%.. To be honest
I thought he meant 8% points too. I don't care for the stat and he Knows that. Like I said its a garbage stat I don't care for. Dmav's loves it.

Sou're taking the already small sample size of 6 games, and further cutting that in half to prove a point? That's cherry picking at it's finest dude. [

So its a stat that only means something in volume? If a stat means anything it has to effective in a game size. Otherwise its a useles cross measure stat.

Is that a light bulb moment for you? Thats an incredible oversight. How is it that you, Hurricane and dmav's all have this incredible lack of ability to see concepts. Rose function is chaos and destabilizing the defense, its not efficiency.

You say similar outputs and don't give me anything more than FGM. Something tells me Dirk shot way more FTs and at a better percentage than Terry too, making their actual efficiency much closer than you're showing. And again, picking a sample size that small can prove anything. I can probably find 4 games that Draymond Green outplayed Curry, or Noah outplayed Rose (in 2011) and it would prove nothing.

Why would you care??? This is me and drunk mavs in a give and take. I say these things because I know his stand on things. I'm not into another hater nut who invades every Rose thread with Monumental foolishness. If you debate a different way... maybe but sounding like the same individual really sucks.

SuperPippen

03-12-2015, 02:56 PM

Standard shifting of the goal posts fallacy.

We aren't talking about some hypothetical Rose in the future...we are talking about Rose in 11 vs Curry now. You have now joined the standard Rose argument nonsense once they (now you) start losing the argument...you guys start talking about how young Rose was and how he'd get better. I agree with those things if he wasn't so injury prone, but it's not relevant to how good he actually was in 11.

You don't earn extra points in the games for being young or old or black or white...it's just about what you do on the ****ing court.

We are comparing Curry this year to Rose in 11...and it's abundantly clear to anyone who knows the game or isn't a huge Rose stan that current Curry's regular season play is far better than Rose's in 11.

Again, everything supports this.

Eye test, raw stats, on/off, advanced plus minus, rapm, advanced stats, wins...everything.

Still don't understand the teammates argument.

Curry was putting up damn near identical numbers the past 2 years with worse teams around him. Teams probably not overall as good as the 11 Bulls.

So why is he now dependent on teammates? When the last 2 years combined before this year he was a 24/4/8 60%TS player?

The wins are a product of his team strength...his individual play is not.

Sorry...

And it's not hating to say Rose was never better than peak Kevin Johnson...or that 11 Rose wouldn't even crack top 5 MVP voting this year.

It's just reality.

Sorry if you don't like it.

Are you seriously that bereft of reading comprehension? I literally just agreed that Curry now is a better player than Rose was in 2011. At the very beginning of my post. Go back, read through it again very slowly. Maybe have someone read it aloud to you if you lack the mental capacity to understand basic written English.

As you said yourself, we are talking about Curry THIS year, and Rose in 2011. :lol at you making such a point to emphasize that specific dichotomy.....and then immediately contradicting your own argument by bringing up Curry's past couple of years in the face of the practically indisputable fact that Curry's supporting cast this year is significantly better than Roses' in 2011, especially offensively.

And your opinions about Rose in relation to KJ, or him not cracking the top 5 in MVP voting are certainly debatable, but the fact that you present them as "reality" just gives further confirmation to the fact that you hate D-Rose, which leaves you unable to hold a legitimate, unbiased argument.

I'm a fan of both players. You, on the other hand, are a salty hater.

"Sorry if you don't like it."

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 03:01 PM

D mavs I don't get your logic..

Dirk was thrown off his game and went into passive mode.. he was bullied by some guys smaller than him.. intimidated by their ghetto street trash talk and physical play most likely. And he couldn't even attack to open the floor for his teammates.

Rose on the other hand attacked the paint relentessly.. a little David going up against three cowardly goliaths. Busting his ass and shaking the heat defense up putting Miami's rebounds out of position.. Creating a void so that booze and Noah could do the only thing they're good for essentially.. putbacks. Do you know how many rose assists he had? An ABSURD amount

simply put one was a valiant effort while the other was a massive chokejob.

What you are saying isn't logical.

Also, you make it sound like Dirk stopped playing or something. I invite you to go back and watch the end of game 5. Where the entire Mavs team had quit and Dirk, by himself, extended that series to 6 games down the stretch.

All you are doing is propping up a player that clearly played worse, but giving him a pass because he shot more.

You simply can't do that. You can use rhetoric all you want...Dirk just factually performed better on the court than Rose did. He played like shit, but that isn't choking...it's playing like shit.

What Rose did was choking. Close game after close game saw Rose crumble when it got down to the wire. Poor shooting, bad turnovers, missed ft's, inept team play...just horrid.

And I ask again...if Dirk had more help and played an inferior team...how did the Bulls play the far better team so close yet the Mavs got laughed off the floor?

It's your logic that doesn't make sense.

Also, we have to stop acting like Dirk's series was way worse than reality.

20/11/2 51% TS is just not the worst thing ever...especially when his numbers are bogged down hugely by his game 6 in which we lost by 25 points in a game that wasn't competitive.

You'll never see me claim Dirk played good, but that series has become more myth than reality.

And I don't think you watched or know much about it, because Dirk absolutely did not quit. He was the only guy still playing in game 5. He quite in game 6 in the 3rd qtr, but when you are down 30 and you know the season is over...kind of hard not to.

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 03:02 PM

Are you seriously that bereft of reading comprehension? I literally just agreed that Curry now is a better player than Rose was in 2011. At the very beginning of my post. Go back, read through it again very slowly. Maybe have someone read it aloud to you if you lack the mental capacity to understand basic written English.

As you said yourself, we are talking about Curry THIS year, and Rose in 2011. :lol at you making such a point to emphasize that specific dichotomy.....and then immediately contradicting your own argument by bringing up Curry's past couple of years in the face of the practically indisputable fact that Curry's supporting cast this year is significantly better than Roses' in 2011, especially offensively.

And your opinions about Rose in relation to KJ, or him not cracking the top 5 in MVP voting are certainly debatable, but the fact that you present them as "reality" just gives further confirmation to the fact that you hate D-Rose, which leaves you unable to hold a legitimate, unbiased argument.

I'm a fan of both players. You, on the other hand, are a salty hater.

"Sorry if you don't like it."

Dude.

Your first point was about team strength.

Your 2nd point was about how Rose wasn't at his peak.

I read it fine.

I'm glad you aren't stupid enough to think 11 Rose was better though.

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 03:07 PM

To be honest
I thought he meant 8% points too. I don't care for the stat and he Knows that. Like I said its a garbage stat I don't care for. Dmav's loves it.

So its a stat that only means something in volume? If a stat means anything it has to effective in a game size. Otherwise its a useles cross measure stat.

Is that a light bulb moment for you? Thats an incredible oversight. How is it that you, Hurricane and dmav's all have this incredible lack of ability to see concepts. Rose function is chaos and destabilizing the defense, its not efficiency.

Why would you care??? This is me and drunk mavs in a give and take. I say these things because I know his stand on things. I'm not into another hater nut who invades every Rose thread Monumental foolishness. If you debate a different way... maybe but sounding like different individuals really sucks.

He's trying to explain to you that you have to compare like with like when using stats.

The reason why Terry vs Dirk is stupid is because the far different roles and responsibilities they have.

Dirk was the main option and was scoring 8 more points per game. Comparing efficiency of Dirk on a small sample to a 2nd option that gets good shots because of Dirk is just stupid.

On the other hand, comparing two starting pg's that put up a similar volume of points...etc....it's much better to compare efficiency.

Comparing Rose vs Curry vs Paul vs Westbrook makes sense.

Comparing Dirk vs Terry vs Deng vs Korver...that doesn't make a lick of sense.

That was his point. It was logical and easy to follow. Even you should have been able to grasp it.

SuperPippen

03-12-2015, 03:13 PM

Dude.

Your first point was about team strength.

Your 2nd point was about how Rose wasn't at his peak.

I read it fine.

I'm glad you aren't stupid enough to think 11 Rose was better though.

Are you dyslexic bruh? You really don't see that line above my first point where I clearly state that I would take Curry this year over Rose in 2011?

Damn, I've just been arguing with someone who is clearly visually handicapped. Maybe your bitterness over that is why you're such a vehement hater who can't even adhere to his own arguments.

I understand now your affliction now, man. Sorry for hurting your feelings.

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 03:16 PM

Are you dyslexic bruh? You really don't see that line above my first point where I clearly state that I would take Curry this year over Rose in 2011?

Damn, I've just been arguing with someone who is clearly visually handicapped. Maybe your bitterness over that is why you're such a vehement hater who can't even adhere to his own arguments.

I understand now your affliction now, man. Sorry for hurting your feelings.

Moron.

I read that...I was addressing your flawed 2 points in relation to the debate at hand.

The team strength is irrelevant to the individual play. Curry was doing this shit before he had a good team.

And it doesn't matter what Rose would or could have done in the future.

Sorry...

And again, it's not hating to accurately place Rose's 11 season where it should go. I hate his moronic fans...they are annoying, but there is nothing wrong with calling Rose what he was/is.

You just chime in here throwing insults from post one towards me and make 2 irrelevant points nobody gives a **** about and then go on crying like a baby.

Just leave or stay on point.

game3524

03-12-2015, 03:18 PM

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 03:21 PM

Yeah, 2011 Rose playoff runs is no where near as bad as 2007 Dirk. Dirk struggled against a team that was 19th in defensive rating, while Rose struggled against a team that was 5th overall and had two of the best wing defenders in the league in Wade and Lebron.

Anyway, I would take 2015 Curry over 2011 Rose. Both are nothing special on defense, but Curry blows Rose away on offense.

Nowhere near as bad?

Rose host 7% worse TS and literally shit himself in crunch time in those games.

Had a 16 points worse ortg...had less combined assists and rebounds...turned it over more, stole the ball less, blocked less shots...

Holy shit...nowhere near as bad....:facepalm

game3524

03-12-2015, 03:25 PM

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 03:33 PM

Look at the opponent.

Miami was an elite defensive team, with two of the best perimeter defenders in the league and Chicago didn't have a single player outside of Rose that could create their own offense, which made it even tougher for Rose.

Dirk struggled against a mediocre defensive team and couldn't take advantage of guys who were 3-4 inches shorter then he was.

On top of that the Warriors were a freaking 8th seed.:facepalm

And the Warriors were a nightmare matchup for the Mavs actually...Not to mention....Dirk shot an enormous 7% higher TS....which negates that matchup issue you speak of.

You do understand matchups...right? That the Warriors were probably the worst matchup in the entire NBA for the 07 Mavs...right?

But again...nobody is claiming the Warriors were as good as the Heat.

But I'm wondering why the Bulls were so close to beating the Heat with Rose playing that badly if he had less help than Dirk. And like you just said...the Warriors weren't as good as the Heat. So if Dirk had more help...and he played at least on par with Rose (being very generous to you here....we aren't grading on a curve in terms of actual play)...please explain why the Bulls were close and the Mavs got laughed off the floor?

It doesn't make any logical sense.

You can grade on a curve and say Rose had a tougher matchup when evaluating how much blame he gets, but the facts remain that in those two series...Dirk just played better in a vacuum.

Again...far more efficient, more rebounds/assists, less turnovers, more steals, more blocks...didn't choke repeatedly in crunch time.

You can argue Rose had it more difficult, but you can't argue about Rose just playing worse.

Yet...with all of that shitty Rose play...he saw his team have crunch time chances in all 4 losses. How did that happen if his team wasn't as good as Dirk's???????

I keep asking because you and others have no answer. Why don't you have an answer? Because the 11 Bulls supporting cast around Rose was ****ing awesome and you downplaying it to prop up Rose is obvious.

Oh...and you really think the Heat were 7%TS better defensively? Even if I grant you that, which I won't, that still would make their performances roughly even.

So you are going to have a hard to defending your position of nowhere near as bad buddy.

Fire Colangelo

03-12-2015, 03:50 PM

Nowhere near as bad?

Rose host 7% worse TS and literally shit himself in crunch time in those games.

Had a 16 points worse ortg...had less combined assists and rebounds...turned it over more, stole the ball less, blocked less shots...

Holy shit...nowhere near as bad....:facepalm

Bruh, you act like the Mavs got blown out by 20+ points every game.

Game 1 was completely winnable, Mavs were down just 6 in the 4th quarter. Dirk scored 3 points off of free throws with no field goals made in the final 12 minutes.

Game 2 the Mavs won quite comfortably despite Dirk having an average game to his standards.

Game 3 was a blowout, with Dirk scoring just 4 points in the entire 2nd half despite having a decent start.

Game 4 was completely winnable, Stackkhouse kept the game reachable in the 4th and Dirk did jackshit until like 15 seconds left when the Mavs were down 6, and the game was pretty much lost.

Game 5 Dirk had a nice game

Game 6 idc how you want to spin it, but the Mavs were down just two at half time and Dirk scored just 4 points in the entire second half.

I know you want to blame it on Dirk's teammates, but Dirk played like shit. His teammates didn't give up, Dirk just sucked, against 19th defense in the league on top of that.

How you're trying to spin this is beyond me. Derrick Rose at least kept attacking, and gave his team a chance on the boards in order to compete since that's where their advantage was. What was Dirk doing on the floor other than game 5? I don't know.

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 04:56 PM

Bruh, you act like the Mavs got blown out by 20+ points every game.

Game 1 was completely winnable, Mavs were down just 6 in the 4th quarter. Dirk scored 3 points off of free throws with no field goals made in the final 12 minutes.

Game 2 the Mavs won quite comfortably despite Dirk having an average game to his standards.

Game 3 was a blowout, with Dirk scoring just 4 points in the entire 2nd half despite having a decent start.

Game 4 was completely winnable, Stackkhouse kept the game reachable in the 4th and Dirk did jackshit until like 15 seconds left when the Mavs were down 6, and the game was pretty much lost.

Game 5 Dirk had a nice game

Game 6 idc how you want to spin it, but the Mavs were down just two at half time and Dirk scored just 4 points in the entire second half.

I know you want to blame it on Dirk's teammates, but Dirk played like shit. His teammates didn't give up, Dirk just sucked, against 19th defense in the league on top of that.

How you're trying to spin this is beyond me. Derrick Rose at least kept attacking, and gave his team a chance on the boards in order to compete since that's where their advantage was. What was Dirk doing on the floor other than game 5? I don't know.

Total straw man.

I've never "blamed it on Dirk's teammates"...and I've actually been harder on Dirk for that series than most.

All I have said is that "attacking" or "shooting a lot" doesn't make one better than the other.

What was Dirk doing? He was literally drawing attention from the entire team every single second he was on the court....and he was really struggling to score efficiently the way he normally did/does because he was playing like shit.

I don't see the confusion. Both Dirk and Rose played like shit...I gladly concede the Heat were a better and tougher team.

I don't think they were 7% TS better, but that really isn't the point.

I keep asking how the Bulls stayed so close if Rose had no help against, as you say, a far better team?

We all know the answer...because it's the only one that makes sense...the Bulls supporting cast was really damn good in 11.

Side note on that Warriors series...that series was one sided. It should have ended in 5 games if not for Dirk going nuts down the stretch. It's completely revisionist history to pretend like the Warriors didn't laugh the Mavs off the court in that series.

The Bulls vs Heat series was not like that at all. All the games outside of game 1 (in which the Bulls won) were very competitive and went down to the 4th qtrs/crunch time....and Rose choked horribly in those close games.

You can grade on a curve, and that is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that Rose was awful...and it doesn't change the fact that the Warriors had a plethora of defenders and players that were a nightmare matchup for both Dirk and the Mavs.

Which is why I don't really like grading on a curve unless it's a team like the 04 Pistons or something....where they are just so good defensively that it's not really fair.

The Heat weren't like that...as we all saw them get run by the Mavs in the next round.

The only reason Dirk's series is being presented as worse here is because the expectations for Dirk were/are far higher than Rose. Which makes sense....Dirk was a far better player than Rose ever was.

Edit:

And you could go through Rose's games in that series:

Game 1: Rose has a slightly above average game...Bulls blowout Heat
Game 2: Rose plays like shit and the Bulls enter the 4th qtr only down 6 with a chance to win
Game 3: Rose plays poorly and Bulls lose yet another winnable game entering 4th
Game 4: Rose is dreadful...ball hogs and turns it over a ton and the Bulls somehow manage to get to OT despite their star killing their chances to win
Game 5: Rose plays awful yet again and blows a lead in the 4th

See?

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 07:24 PM

DMavs and I disagree on plenty. But we always seem to come together when it comes to your hilariously ill argued positions.

Why do you always say you and disagree on plenty and I when I ask you, you can't name when or on what. When I searched there were no disagreements, I mean is this some sick perverted fantasy of yours. You and him coming together, really, over being deranged haters? I do recall you blindly following him and suggesting that CJ Watson was a better defender than Rose. Outside of that you don't contribute much at all. You don't have much in terms of originality. But, hey, don't let me get in the way of your fantasy.

Fire Colangelo

03-12-2015, 08:33 PM

Total straw man.

I've never "blamed it on Dirk's teammates"...and I've actually been harder on Dirk for that series than most.

All I have said is that "attacking" or "shooting a lot" doesn't make one better than the other.

What was Dirk doing? He was literally drawing attention from the entire team every single second he was on the court....and he was really struggling to score efficiently the way he normally did/does because he was playing like shit.

I don't see the confusion. Both Dirk and Rose played like shit...I gladly concede the Heat were a better and tougher team.

I don't think they were 7% TS better, but that really isn't the point.

I keep asking how the Bulls stayed so close if Rose had no help against, as you say, a far better team?

We all know the answer...because it's the only one that makes sense...the Bulls supporting cast was really damn good in 11.

Side note on that Warriors series...that series was one sided. It should have ended in 5 games if not for Dirk going nuts down the stretch. It's completely revisionist history to pretend like the Warriors didn't laugh the Mavs off the court in that series.

The Bulls vs Heat series was not like that at all. All the games outside of game 1 (in which the Bulls won) were very competitive and went down to the 4th qtrs/crunch time....and Rose choked horribly in those close games.

You can grade on a curve, and that is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that Rose was awful...and it doesn't change the fact that the Warriors had a plethora of defenders and players that were a nightmare matchup for both Dirk and the Mavs.

Which is why I don't really like grading on a curve unless it's a team like the 04 Pistons or something....where they are just so good defensively that it's not really fair.

The Heat weren't like that...as we all saw them get run by the Mavs in the next round.

The only reason Dirk's series is being presented as worse here is because the expectations for Dirk were/are far higher than Rose. Which makes sense....Dirk was a far better player than Rose ever was.

Edit:

And you could go through Rose's games in that series:

Game 1: Rose has a slightly above average game...Bulls blowout Heat
Game 2: Rose plays like shit and the Bulls enter the 4th qtr only down 6 with a chance to win
Game 3: Rose plays poorly and Bulls lose yet another winnable game entering 4th
Game 4: Rose is dreadful...ball hogs and turns it over a ton and the Bulls somehow manage to get to OT despite their star killing their chances to win
Game 5: Rose plays awful yet again and blows a lead in the 4th

See?

First of all, the fact that Rose kept attacking puts pressure on the Heat's defense, it makes the likes of LeBron and Wade put energy on defense to slow them down on offense.

Yes, I'm sure Dirk drew a lot of attention in that series. Whatever he was doing, it clearly didn't work, and he didn't do anything to change it.

You're acting like Rose was chucking the whole series, he wasn't. Nobody else was having a good offensive series. Luol Deng, despite what his numbers might lead you to believe cannot create a shot for his life. Boozer's shot wasn't falling either. The biggest advantage the Bulls had on the Heat was their superior rebounding and interior defense. The Bulls couldn't capitalize on their advantages and let Chris Bosh out play them.

Mind you, Rose's TS% was fine until LeBron started guarding him in 4th quarters where he shot something like 1-15. Yeah, he sucked ass but he sucked ass against the best player, and the best perimeter defense on the planet.

Dirk on the other hand? Who was guarding Dirk? Barnes? Biedrins? Was there such a elite paint presence in the Warriors lineup that caused Dirk to play so badly?

So yeah, I do think there is a huge difference between LeBron + Heat's defense and Barnes/Biedrins + Warriors defense. Is it worth 7% TS? Idk.

Dirk's series is worse because he lost in the first round, when people thought they had a chance to win the Championship. Again, Rose at least made the ECF and lost to a team they weren't really favored against.

Now I noticed you throw around the word "choke" a lot. Did Kobe choke in 04? 08? Did LeBron choke in 07? 08? 10?

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 08:45 PM

Again...how then was it possible for the Bulls to go into crunch time in every game with a chance to win if Rose had no help compared to Dirk.
They threw the kitchen sink at Rose every fourth quarter. Who are you suggesting stepped up? This stops you every time? Rose was by far the best player on his team. Just as Howard, the journey man pothead, was by far the best player on his team. And much better than Dirk in nearly every metric. Barely losing out in rebounding as a wing player. Dirk was the ninth best player on his team in TS%.

Why did the Mavs get laughed off the floor against a far inferior team if Dirk had guys stepping up?
They didn't have a leader but Dirk was definitely an inferior player to Josh.

Do you not see the corner you've backed yourself into???????
Not at all, you seem to think Dirk was the best player on his team. And Howard was a much better defensive player as well.

And....well...just because...I'll post the pain again:

Dirk puts up 20/11/2 51% TS 2 steals 1 block 2 turnovers with 111 ortg 109 drtg
You forgot to add that GS found out that Dallas didn't have a leader in the first game when Dirk bricked everything he could in the 4th quarter of a close game. Dirk would bomb out in three close games. Wasn't even the best player on his team. Didn't really contribute outside of rebounding in like three games. Stackhouse, Terry and Howard all had better games than Dirk outside of the last game. In their last stand five players had a better game than Dirk.

Rose puts up 23/4/7 44% ts 1 steal 0 blocks 4 turnovers with 93 ortg 107 drtg[/B]
By your own admission, they were close in most of the games while being the best player on his team. Without becoming the second best player on his team. Rose kept the attack on despite not having three players taking games over in his absence, much less five players.

And those numbers for Rose don't even do it justice.
Well, he could have forgotten who he was. Or that he was the leader of the ship. Or even have five players play better than him in his last stand. Or Not play aggressive.

Dirk really went on vacation - don't ever talk about Rose again.

In the last game one FGs in the 4th and only 1 basket in the second half
In the 3rd game no FGs in the 4th and only 1 basket in the second half.
In game 2 one FG in the 4th. Dirk does make free throws.
In game 1 no FGs in the 4th. 1 fg in the second half. Howard and Harris take over the team. Tone is set for the series.

This was against the team that gave up the most points in the league.

If Dirk had played like he did in a series his team had a chance...it would have been much worse. Not Rose bad, but worse...the fact that the Mavs got laughed off the floor just shows what a weak team it was at it's core.

The Bulls, however, showed how good they actually were. Their star played simply as bad as possible...and they still had chances each game to beat prime Lebron, Wade, and Bosh...but they didn't because Rose sucked. Plain and simple.
On Roses back. They were close because of Rose. Not because of anybody else. There was a good game by Boozer in one game. That's it. Wasn't a case where it was an important game and Rose was the fifth best player on the team. Or the majority of the games where Dirk was just plain absent in the second half - A MAJORITY OF THE GAMES. Rose was the main factor of every game save maybe one. Rose still kept his team close. Dirk was absent most of the games in the 4th.

But it's hard to beat a team of prime Wade, Lebron, and Bosh all healthy....but it takes an all time great like Dirk to do that.

Not some over-rated guard maybe slightly worse than peak Kevin Johnson.

This Kevin Johnson BS because ShaqAttack said he was on some level with Rose. ShaqAttack wasn't watching ball when KJ played. But whatever...

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 08:46 PM

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 08:57 PM

First of all, the fact that Rose kept attacking puts pressure on the Heat's defense, it makes the likes of LeBron and Wade put energy on defense to slow them down on offense.

Yes, I'm sure Dirk drew a lot of attention in that series. Whatever he was doing, it clearly didn't work, and he didn't do anything to change it.

You're acting like Rose was chucking the whole series, he wasn't. Nobody else was having a good offensive series. Luol Deng, despite what his numbers might lead you to believe cannot create a shot for his life. Boozer's shot wasn't falling either. The biggest advantage the Bulls had on the Heat was their superior rebounding and interior defense. The Bulls couldn't capitalize on their advantages and let Chris Bosh out play them.

Mind you, Rose's TS% was fine until LeBron started guarding him in 4th quarters where he shot something like 1-15. Yeah, he sucked ass but he sucked ass against the best player, and the best perimeter defense on the planet.

Dirk on the other hand? Who was guarding Dirk? Barnes? Biedrins? Was there such a elite paint presence in the Warriors lineup that caused Dirk to play so badly?

So yeah, I do think there is a huge difference between LeBron + Heat's defense and Barnes/Biedrins + Warriors defense. Is it worth 7% TS? Idk.

Dirk's series is worse because he lost in the first round, when people thought they had a chance to win the Championship. Again, Rose at least made the ECF and lost to a team they weren't really favored against.

Now I noticed you throw around the word "choke" a lot. Did Kobe choke in 04? 08? Did LeBron choke in 07? 08? 10?

And what Rose did didn't work either...right?

Playing bad and choking are different.

What Rose did in the 4 close games and especially those last 2 close games in crunch time was choking in my opinion. He shot 20% for the series in the 4th qtrs in close games. He missed multiple huge free throws. He had crucial bad turnovers.

What Dirk did in the 06 finals missing that free throw...that is a moment of "choking"...what Lebron did missing those two free throws the other night...that is "choking"...

What Dirk did in 07 overall in that series was just him playing like shit.
What Kobe did in 04, in my opinion, is just him playing like shit.

I think there is a difference between playing horribly and choking, but that is just me.

I think the big issue here is that you think the Warriors just sucked or something. I hugely disagree. Not only were they at least a 50 win team if healthy for the year (seriously....go back and look at their roster and check all their injuries...they were hurt all year and still managed to have a winning record despite not having their full team most of the year...and they were healthy in the playoffs)...but:

They were a nightmare matchup for Dirk and the Mavs. So when you see Barnes, Biedrins, Jackson and you think that isn't good...well, it's the exact type of team/defense that can give Dirk/Mavs trouble. We were horrid playing run and gun...we wanted to slow down the game and play halfcourt and be big up front with Damp and Dirk...Damp didn't even play essentially in that series because Avery is a moron and because of just bad matchups.

I completely agree the Heat were the better team and more difficult matchup despite that, but again...Dirk played better than Rose. He shot better, had more rebounds/assists per game, turned it over less, more steals, more blocks, better offensive rating by a huge margin.

Does the tougher matchup of the Heat zero that out? I don't know...I personally don't think the Heat matchup was more difficult enough to zero it out, but I readily and gladly admit the Heat were better.

But that makes my point. The Heat were clearly a better team than the Warriors. So this nonsense about Rose not having any help is stupid. Doesn't matter how we phrase it...Rose played like shit in the ECF...and despite that...his team won game 1 in a blowout...and then lost 4 straight winnable games in the 4th qtrs. If his team around him was not really ****ing good...that would have been impossible given how good the Heat were.

So it's a bit odd to see the Mavs get laughed off the court by an inferior Warriors team...then watch the Bulls have a great chance to win each game they played....

And then hear Rose fans and Dirk haters claim Dirk had a lot more help.

It doesn't add up and anyone being remotely honest knows that.

And again...the standards for Dirk seem absurdly high here. He puts up 20/11/2 51% TS and you act like he played the worst series ever or something. Guys do that and worse all the time...Lebron's 11 finals was a joke compared to Dirk's 07 series. Lebron's 07 finals was far worse than Dirk's 07 Warriors series. Kobe's had multiple series worse. It happens...sometimes players play poorly. And it was a bad matchup for Dirk/Mavs...just the truth.

You won't see me using that as an excuse like Rose fans....where they think it's just acceptable to do what Rose did. What Dirk did was awful...no excuse regardless of matchup or competition. I think it's very telling the different standards for both MVP's...

I mean...44%TS and multiple let downs in crunch time in winnable games is really really really bad. There is just no way around it regardless of competition. And that is the best we've seen of Rose. At his peak so far in his career he had a meltdown in the biggest 4 games of his life.

If Dirk's peak was the 07 Warriors series....just LOL

That is the difference.

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 08:58 PM

He's trying to explain to you that you have to compare like with like when using stats.

The reason why Terry vs Dirk is stupid is because the far different roles and responsibilities they have.

Dirk was the main option and was scoring 8 more points per game. Comparing efficiency of Dirk on a small sample to a 2nd option that gets good shots because of Dirk is just stupid.

On the other hand, comparing two starting pg's that put up a similar volume of points...etc....it's much better to compare efficiency.

Comparing Rose vs Curry vs Paul vs Westbrook makes sense.

Comparing Dirk vs Terry vs Deng vs Korver...that doesn't make a lick of sense.

That was his point. It was logical and easy to follow. Even you should have been able to grasp it.
Dirk and Terry come in the game and their primary function is to shoot.

Rose came in the game to break down the defense and cause chaos.

Curry is to run a smooth system efficiently.

Dirk and Terry function similar. That's why when Dirk's shot went astray (537TS%) in the finals, Terry's (607TS%) fell right into place. Rose role doesn't involve being highly efficient, so TS% will not work in his favor.

Westbrook won't be as efficient as Curry if they play each other in the playoffs. Westbrook wasn't as efficient as Chris Paul either but he was definitely the more effective player.

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 08:59 PM

They threw the kitchen sink at Rose every fourth quarter. Who are you suggesting stepped up? This stops you every time? Rose was by far the best player on his team. Just as Howard, the journey man pothead, was by far the best player on his team. And much better than Dirk in nearly every metric. Barely losing out in rebounding as a wing player. Dirk was the ninth best player on his team in TS%.

They didn't have a leader but Dirk was definitely an inferior player to Josh.

Not at all, you seem to think Dirk was the best player on his team. And Howard was a much better defensive player as well.

You forgot to add that GS found out that Dallas didn't have a leader in the first game when Dirk bricked everything he could in the 4th quarter of a close game. Dirk would bomb out in three close games. Wasn't even the best player on his team. Didn't really contribute outside of rebounding in like three games. Stackhouse, Terry and Howard all had better games than Dirk outside of the last game. In their last stand five players had a better game than Dirk.

By your own admission, they were close in most of the games while being the best player on his team. Without becoming the second best player on his team. Rose kept the attack on despite not having three players taking games over in his absence, much less five players.

Well, he could have forgotten who he was. Or that he was the leader of the ship. Or even have five players play better than him in his last stand. Or Not play aggressive.

Dirk really went on vacation - don't ever talk about Rose again.

In the last game one FGs in the 4th and only 1 basket in the second half
In the 3rd game no FGs in the 4th and only 1 basket in the second half.
In game 2 one FG in the 4th. Dirk does make free throws.
In game 1 no FGs in the 4th. 1 fg in the second half. Howard and Harris take over the team. Tone is set for the series.

This was against the team that gave up the most points in the league.

On Roses back. They were close because of Rose. Not because of anybody else. There was a good game by Boozer in one game. That's it. Wasn't a case where it was an important game and Rose was the fifth best player on the team. Or the majority of the games where Dirk was just plain absent in the second half - A MAJORITY OF THE GAMES. Rose was the main factor of every game save maybe one. Rose still kept his team close. Dirk was absent most of the games in the 4th.

This Kevin Johnson BS because ShaqAttack said he was on some level with Rose. ShaqAttack wasn't watching ball when KJ played. But whatever...

Almost entirely subjective nonsense.

44% TS...multiple chokes in crunch time.

If you want to argue Rose had it harder...at least that is a sound argument with logic behind it.

Stop acting like Rose did his job. He didn't. It wasn't his job to hog the ball and put up a 93 ortg while falling apart late in close games. You propped Rose all year for carrying the Bulls in crunch time. I thought that was his job...right? Why isn't it his job in the playoffs to take over in crunch time and lead his team to wins? Pretty much your entire argument for Rose in 11 was how good he and the Bulls were in close games. Now, you are saying his performance late in the 4 biggest games of the year doesn't matter.

You see why it's hard to follow you? One minute crunch time and late game play means everything in the regular season. Then in the 4 biggest games of Rose's life....his inept late game play don't mean anything.

It was Rose's job to carry the offense. He failed miserably at that. 44% TS and a 93 ortg...it's hard to do worse than that. Truth...

But acting like Rose was out there on his own with no help is not a good look. His team carried his ass in that series and if he had just played average....he would have had the pleasure of getting his ass handed to him in the Finals by Dirk rather than the Heat in the ECF.

Be glad the Bulls didn't make the Finals...

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 09:00 PM

Dirk and Terry come in the game and their primary function is to shoot.

Rose came in the game to break down the defense and cause chaos.

Curry is to run a smooth system efficiently.

Dirk and Terry function similar. That's why when Dirk's shot went astray (537TS%) in the finals, Terry's (607TS%) fell right into place. Rose role doesn't involve being highly efficient, so TS% will not work in his favor.

Westbrook won't be as efficient as Curry if they play each other in the playoffs. Westbrook wasn't as efficient as Chris Paul either but he was definitely the more effective player.

If you think Dirk and Terry play a similar role...you are just...wow....****ing retarded.

And WB is never going to outplay Curry or Paul in a series shooting 44% TS unless those other two guys happen to play the worst series of their lives....LOL

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 09:20 PM

And what Rose did didn't work either...right?
But there was effort, hustle and courage behind it. With Dirk it was abandon ship.

Playing bad and choking are different.

What Rose did in the 4 close games and especially those last 2 close games in crunch time was choking in my opinion. He shot 20% for the series in the 4th qtrs in close games. He missed multiple huge free throws. He had crucial bad turnovers.
What Dirk did was muuuch worse. He totally punked out. Dirk froze up and became a bench player. He didn't compete. He wasn't even trying. He wasn't a leader. What good was he. He withdrew.

I think there is a difference between playing horribly and choking, but that is just me.
Forgetting who you are. Too scared to take shots. Leaving your job to other players....

They were a nightmare matchup for Dirk and the Mavs. So when you see Barnes, Biedrins, Jackson and you think that isn't good...well, it's the exact type of team/defense that can give Dirk/Mavs trouble. We were horrid playing run and gun...we wanted to slow down the game and play halfcourt and be big up front with Damp and Dirk...Damp didn't even play essentially in that series because Avery is a moron and because of just bad matchups.

The Bulls couldn't break a trap. And noooobody stepped up like three different players did for the Mavs.

I completely agree the Heat were the better team and more difficult matchup despite that, but again...Dirk played better than Rose. He shot better, had more rebounds/assists per game, turned it over less, more steals, more blocks, better offensive rating by a huge margin.
Not as the best player on his team, not as the leader of his team. Most of the time he wasn't doing much of anything in the second half. Pressure came he left the building. Pressure makes people leave, choke, forget who they are.

And again...the standards for Dirk seem absurdly high here. He puts up 20/11/2 51% TS and you act like he played the worst series ever or something.
Wasn't expected to be the best player on his team. Wasn't expected to hit more than a basket in a majority of the games against the most scored on team in the league, in a majority of the games. Wasn't expected to hit more than one basket in the second half of two games. Wasn't expected to be better than five players on his team in their last stand. I say his standards are garbage.

You won't see me using that as an excuse like Rose fans....where they think it's just acceptable to do what Rose did. What Dirk did was awful...no excuse regardless of matchup or competition. I think it's very telling the different standards for both MVP's... Rose won two series on his back. Remained the leader. Remained the best player throughout their troubles.

I mean...44%TS and multiple let downs in crunch time in winnable games is really really really bad. There is just no way around it regardless of competition. And that is the best we've seen of Rose. At his peak so far in his career he had a meltdown in the biggest 4 games of his life.

Very different if five other players are suddenly better than him in the most crucial game. Rose was easily the best player on his team. Dirk wasn't.

navy

03-12-2015, 09:21 PM

tldr

Nothing wrong with a D Rose or Curry MVP

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 09:24 PM

Almost entirely subjective nonsense.

44% TS...multiple chokes in crunch time.

Dirk's true shooting percentage was punked out. He flat out didn't shoot in a majority of the games. Not taking shots as a leader is worse than bad stats. That's his main job. He left the job.

But acting like Rose was out there on his own with no help is not a good look. His team carried his ass in that series and if he had just played average....
Name me the player that stepped up. Simple job.

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 09:26 PM

If you think Dirk and Terry play a similar role...you are just...wow....****ing retarded.

I delineated it for you idiot. Refute what I said. Strawman don't work with me.

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 09:29 PM

But there was effort, hustle and courage behind it. With Dirk it was abandon ship.

What Dirk did was muuuch worse. He totally punked out. Dirk froze up and became a bench player. He didn't compete. He wasn't even trying. He wasn't a leader. What good was he. He withdrew.

Forgetting who you are. Too scared to take shots. Leaving your job to other players....

The Bulls couldn't break a trap. And noooobody stepped up like three different players did for the Mavs.

Not as the best player on his team, not as the leader of his team. Most of the time he wasn't doing much of anything in the second half. Pressure came he left the building. Pressure makes people leave, choke, forget who they are.

Wasn't expected to be the best player on his team. Wasn't expected to hit more than a basket in a majority of the games against the scored on team in the league, in a majority of the games. Wasn't expected to hit more than one basket in the second half of two games. Wasn't expected to be better than five players on his team in their last stand. I say his standards are garbage.

Rose won two series on his back. Remained the leader. Remained the best player throughout their troubles.

Very different if five other players are suddenly better than him in the most crucial game. Rose was easily the best player on his team. Dirk wasn't.

We just see it differently.

I think Rose was arguably the worst player on his team.

The Bulls were built off playing great defense and rebounding well...with Rose doing on offense to get by.

The defense/rebounding were there....but Rose's offense wasn't. Rose didn't do his job.

He had a putrid 93 offensive rating and then crumbled horribly when it mattered most.

I'd take just about any player on the Bulls team over that in the ECF.

Just see it differently.

And I invite you to go back and watch game 5 of the Warriors series and tell me Dirk gave up and was holding his team back like you claim. He's the reason it wasn't over in 5.

Rose, on the other hand, was the reason it was over so quickly. He didn't do his job...and his team suffered hugely for it. Everyone else on the team did their job...as evidenced by taking 3 leads into the 4th qtr out of 5 games despite their supposed "leader" playing so poorly.

Dirk didn't get that. He didn't see his team keep it competitive despite his poor play. His saw his team get laughed off the floor.

That is the huge difference and what you can't comprehend because you think it was all Rose. Rose had far more help....the results make that a fact.

navy

03-12-2015, 09:31 PM

I think Rose was arguably the worst player on his team.

:biggums:

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 09:32 PM

I delineated it for you idiot. Refute what I said. Strawman don't work with me.

You can't compare the two you moron.

It's like comparing Rose to Boozer...it doesn't even make sense given what you are asking for.

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 09:33 PM

:biggums:

Take a step back and really think about what he did.

Guys off the street can shoot 44% TS and produce a 93 ortg and miss clutch free throws and make horrible game losing turnovers.

He was dreadful beyond belief....

The Bulls would have been much better off not trying to let their leader lead. They should have played as a team.

They played as a one man show and it cost them.

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 09:38 PM

Almost entirely subjective nonsense.
So this is subjective:

In the last game one FGs in the 4th and only 1 basket in the second half
In the 3rd game no FGs in the 4th and only 1 basket in the second half.
In game 2 one FG in the 4th. Dirk does make free throws.
In game 1 no FGs in the 4th. 1 fg in the second half. Howard and Harris take over the team. Tone is set for the series.

This was against the team that gave up the most points in the league.

Not taking shots when that's your job as a leader is worse than missing shots. It demoralizes your team. He didn't shoot but abandoned ship, became the fifth best player on his team in its apex and you think its better than 44TS%.

You keep trying to brainwash yourself with 44TS%. As an offensive player you aren't suppose to flame out on the team all teams scored the most points against. Dirk is a two prong player, doesn't do much else. And he balked.

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 09:39 PM

Dirk's true shooting percentage was punked out. He flat out didn't shoot in a majority of the games. Not taking shots as a leader is worse than bad stats. That's his main job. He left the job.

Name me the player that stepped up. Simple job.

He didn't shoot?

Yet he averaged 22 points on 54% TS through the first 5 games of the series. You can't do that by not shooting.

You are solely talking about the 2nd half of game 6 in which we got down by 30...

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 09:41 PM

So this is subjective:

In the last game one FGs in the 4th and only 1 basket in the second half
In the 3rd game no FGs in the 4th and only 1 basket in the second half.
In game 2 one FG in the 4th. Dirk does make free throws.
In game 1 no FGs in the 4th. 1 fg in the second half. Howard and Harris take over the team. Tone is set for the series.

This was against the team that gave up the most points in the league.

Not taking shots when that's your job as a leader is worse than missing shots. It demoralizes your team. He didn't shoot but abandoned ship, became the fifth best player on his team in its apex and you think its better than 44TS%.

You keep trying to brainwash yourself with 44TS%. As an offensive player you aren't suppose to flame out on the team all teams scored the most points against. Dirk is a two prong player, doesn't do much else. And he balked.

Flame out?

Flaming out is having a 93 ortg and taking like 25 shots a game. That is worse than flaming out.

Are you really going into 4th qtr play here? You really want me to bring out what Rose did in the 4th qtrs?

That is your argument???????

:wtf:

DMAVS41

03-12-2015, 09:42 PM

I'm done arguing this yet again.

Thought maybe logic and sense would matter.

I know you are mad Rose is out yet again, but it doesn't change reality.

Curry >>>> Rose

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rose

Sorry...you can have the last word.

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 09:50 PM

You can't compare the two you moron.

It's like comparing Rose to Boozer...it doesn't even make sense given what you are asking for.
No, its not. Dirk's main function is to shoot out of the post. Terry's main function is to shoot outside the post, neither plays much defense. They aren't expected to rack up in any other category the last four years.

Rose function is more different than with fellow PG Teague than their functions

Please refute, clown. And I will be making fun of you.

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 09:55 PM

Flame out?

Flaming out is having a 93 ortg and taking like 25 shots a game. That is worse than flaming out.

Are you really going into 4th qtr play here? You really want me to bring out what Rose did in the 4th qtrs?

That is your argument???????

:wtf:
Dirk had no flame. His fire was too scared to shoot. Rose played hard and was the best player on his team. Dirk abandoned ship, didn't play hard didn't shoot, wasn't the best player on his team, wasn't the leader.

Pointguard

03-12-2015, 09:56 PM

He didn't shoot?

Yet he averaged 22 points on 54% TS through the first 5 games of the series. You can't do that by not shooting.

You are solely talking about the 2nd half of game 6 in which we got down by 30...
Not in the fourth quarter. Are you reading the post.

nathanjizzle

03-12-2015, 10:24 PM

dirk just cant carry a team like rose does. thats why dirk has always underachieved in the playoffs, he relies on his teammates. Which is the reason why dmavs is always making that excuse for dirks underachieving career, that his teammates suck. LOL.

using roses playoff performance, when he was 22, in his 3rd year, after playing mvp basketball the regular season, and having an ankle injury, against the best team in the nba, is just what haters will do to validify their delusion. Its funny how this dmavs dude grasps so hard for straws. Rose in 11' will always be a bigger impact on the court than dirk ever was or ever will be.

now here, i leave you with rookie derrick rose in preseason, taking a dump on dirk and his team. rookie rose, vs prime dirk? LOL.
http://tinyurl.com/n29pw3o

btw, dmavs is a huge hater, too much of a coward to admit it. He has already said "i dont like roses style or how he plays". well what other reason would you like or hate a player in basketball? for their personality? LOL this guy is a joke.

really tho, dirk is as irrelevant as ever, never had above average defense, actually as a 4, i would say he was a defensive liability. glorified role player for sure.