Westbrook tonight was a great example of why today's wings are so stoppable

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/740c4aeb63705ef81d066269d25f3e54.gif


All of today's wings are dribble-happy, ball-dominant players like what we saw from Westbrook tonight - his over-dribbling looked like a chicken running around with his head cut off.

If Westbrook could add some elite off-ball game (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10862372&postcount=18), then his game wouldn't be so predictable and STOPPABLE.

Then maybe he'd be able to shoot 10 percentage points better like Jordan and easily win the championship THIS YEAR, just like Jordan would with that stacked OKC team.

Jordan was an off-ball player whose M.O. was to produce at a GOAT rate without diminishing his teammates production in any way.. Jordan would win 75 games with that team, maybe 80... realtalk.. :confusedshrug:

[SouBeachTalents]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/740c4aeb63705ef81d066269d25f3e54.gif


All of today's wings are dribble-happy, ball-dominant players like what we saw from Westbrook tonight - his over-dribbling looked like a chicken running around with his head cut off.

If Westbrook could add some elite off-ball game (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10862372&postcount=18), then his game wouldn't be so predictable and STOPPABLE.

Then maybe he'd be able to shoot 10 percentage points better like Jordan and easily win the championship THIS YEAR, just like Jordan would with that stacked OKC team.

Jordan was an off-ball player whose M.O. was to produce at a GOAT rate without diminishing his teammates production in any way.. Jordan would win 75 games with that team, maybe 80... realtalk.. :confusedshrug:

82-0

[navy]

Bulls 54 wins without Jordan.

OKC team tonight? Lottery without Westbrook.

Stacked doe

[SugarHill]

He'd win 80 games with Ibaka as his second option?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Bulls = stacked

Pippen = Durant according to OP.

[3ball]

He'd win 80 games with Ibaka as his second option?


With Durant as his #2, they'd ring this year and every year until MJ retired.

Durant > Pippen easily

Durant would average 26-30, possibly 30+.... MJ 33-38 PPG..

The thought of MJ playing alongside today's more navigationally efficient (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360900) players, in today's spacing.. Yikes

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Please go away. Please.

http://i.giphy.com/XYqP2P2UiAtiM.gif

[3ball]

See, this is what I'm talking about - Jordan drops 46 in the Finals against a super athletic team and good defense... and he does it ALL OFF-BALL:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIZ3d0pnY1U&t=1m33s

If MJ had tried to get his 46 by dribbling the air out of the ball, it would've resulted in an L, because he would have hindered his teammates production.

But by getting his 46 all off-ball, Jordan literally just added this GOAT production on top of his supporting cast's without hindering theirs at all, which is why his teams always maximized their capacity and reached their ceiling.

[SyRyanYang]

For once I think OP has a good point.

[Milbuck]

Durant > Pippen easily
Hmmm.
So just looking at your top 4 - Lebron, Durant, Melo, and Pierce - let's compare:

Bird>Lebron
Dantley>Melo
Pippen=Durant (defense, winning experience & acumen)
Dominique>Pierce (Nique had better stats, and he almost took Bird all by himself in 1988... what would he have done with Garnett & Allen?)

I can definitely see the argument for Durant over Pippen... I prefer Pippen however, because I consider his defense into the equation, and his ability to fit better onto championship teams.


agreed - people go by sheer talent too much... a prime Pippen on the Thunder right now would fit in just as good, maybe better than Durant does.

I can understand the arguments for Durant over Pippen, but they are mostly about who would be better leading an entire franchise, not who would be better for a team.

[3ball]

Hmmm.



I had long-updated my original opinion on Durant vs. Pippen, as seen in updated Top 10 Wing rankings below, and also shown in a thread, here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365845).

As you can see, I don't even have Pippen over Penny or Hill.. At the time in the mid-late 90's, everyone had those two ranked over Pippen.. It's just that they got hurt and their careers didn't finish with all the accolades, so people forgot they were actually better than Pippen.


..........TOP 10 WINGS, SG or SF (each era is listed in order)



...2000-2014.............1984-1998

Kobe Bryant............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James........... Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........ Clyde Drexler
Kevin Durant.......... Dominique Wilkins
Tracey McGrady..... Grant Hill
James Harden........ Penny Hardaway
Paul Pierce.............. Scottie Pippen
Carmelo Anthony...... Adrian Dantley
Vince Carter.......... James Worthy
Allen Iverson........... Reggie Miller



HM 1984-1998: Dr. J, Dennis Rodman, Alex English, Chris Mullin, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034), Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Reggie Lewis, Latrell Sprewell, Sidney Moncrief, Mitch Richmond, Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Dennis Johnson, Ronaldo Blackman, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone

HM 2000-2014: Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Michael Redd, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas
.

[scandisk_]

You sound like Jlauber tbh. Please, no one wants to hear the endless BS and the shitty gimmicks of this alt of yours.

[Genaro]

http://puu.sh/gwRJs/d82d3d4a9e.jpg

[3ball]

I had long-updated my original opinion on Durant vs. Pippen, as seen in updated Top 10 Wing rankings below, and also shown in a thread, here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365845).

As you can see, I don't even have Pippen over Penny or Hill.. At the time in the mid-late 90's, everyone had those two ranked over Pippen.. It's just that they got hurt and their careers didn't finish with all the accolades, so people forgot they were actually better than Pippen.


..........TOP 10 WINGS, SG or SF (each era is listed in order)



...2000-2014.............1984-1998

Kobe Bryant............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James........... Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........ Clyde Drexler
Kevin Durant.......... Dominique Wilkins
Tracey McGrady..... Grant Hill
James Harden........ Penny Hardaway
Paul Pierce.............. Scottie Pippen
Carmelo Anthony...... Adrian Dantley
Vince Carter.......... James Worthy
Allen Iverson........... Reggie Miller



HM 1984-1998: Dr. J, Dennis Rodman, Alex English, Chris Mullin, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034), Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Reggie Lewis, Latrell Sprewell, Sidney Moncrief, Mitch Richmond, Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Dennis Johnson, Ronaldo Blackman, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone

HM 2000-2014: Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Michael Redd, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas


^^^^^ Milbuck, is this a good enough explanation of how I've evolved on Pippen?

All I had to do was think back to what the prevailing sentiment was at the time - and everyone was like "Hill and Penny are the new, improved Pippen".

They had better, more dynamic handles, playmaking and superior scoring... And they got more dunks too.. Before they got hurt, Penny and Hill were well on their way to being in that very elite group of wing players in history that consistently amassed over 100 dunks per season (along with Dr. J, MJ, Dominique, Drexler, Durant, Lebron, Wade) - the stats show this (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399).

In addition to not being as good as Penny and Hill, I remembered how Pippen was never took over and gave MJ a night off.. Pippen never had even one memorable playoff shot or big moment - they are all MJ's.. or Kukoc's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NSpgbPcxoU).

Like MJ, Durant has some playoff game-winners and moments where he took over as well.. but never Pippen though... Btw, look at how much deeper the 1984-1998 forward class is... wow

[Milbuck]

I'm not reading that shit, dude. Give me one sentence posts and I'll consider it. Until then I've reported you on 3 of my alts for writing excessively long posts.

[3ball]

.
Spacing gives Westbrook a clear paint to work with (Bron takes a million dribbles here though):


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/911d3cac30b219754c53b4b156428f49.gif



Otoh, no-spacing meant crowded paints and finishing over HOF paint-camping bigs..

(MJ takes 1 dribble or less on each play):


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Finishing_Over_Duncan_a_10e37bb5b61b627dcd2 e1170b8ae854f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/96dab71086245b7d9abe001570cf9cf8.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cef4c95d38340ea34d784c7d70124cb8.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/af74f33851c4e8d2c698212f0a5f174b.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4279845ae9da928f355d58c429ac0abb.gif

[UK2K]

I'm not reading that shit, dude. Give me one sentence posts and I'll consider it. Until then I've reported you on 3 of my alts for writing excessively long posts.
Oohhhh got eeeeemmmmm

[OldSchoolBBall]

People are quick to dismiss 3BALL's points, and his constant pro-Jordan schtick gets annoying at times even for a HUGE Jordan fan like myself, but you CANNOT deny that Jordan was a completely different type of player than today's ball dominant wings. Jordan was CAPABLE of playing that style (as he showed in 1989, averaging 30+/10/10 for over a month), but his game was also WAY more varied than these guys today, and he could seamlessly blend with other talent in ways that these guys can't - they make the talent bend to them.

[ralph_i_el]

Much easier to play off the ball when you have a stacked team and the GOAT coach putting you in a system that gets easy looks from off-ball movement

[andgar923]

Much easier to play off the ball when you have the talent and IQ to do so
:cheers:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Much easier to play off the ball when you have a stacked team and the GOAT coach putting you in a system that gets easy looks from off-ball movement

lol nice try. Jordan was still killing it off ball at age 39/40 on the Wizards. He was also better off the ball even from '88-'90, before the team was as talented as it would become, and before PJax. Try harder next time.

[Foster5k]

3ball shouldn't you be a that Michael Jordan sneaker auction? What the hell are you doing here?

[ralph_i_el]

lol nice try. Jordan was still killing it off ball at age 39/40 on the Wizards. He was also better off the ball even from '88-'90, before the team was as talented as it would become, and before PJax. Try harder next time.

If by "Killing it off the ball" you mean "Shooting literally 75% of his shots from midrange, scoring on HORRIBLE efficiency" then yes, he was "Killing it"