Michael Jordan on the 2003-2010 Cavs - how far do they get?

[2010splash]

One of the main reasons I rate LeBron as the greatest player of all-time is due to the extent to which he made teams full of pure horse shit overachieve. You look at the Cavs from 2003-2010 and they basically resembled a today's version of the Knicks or Lakers. They were just horrid, horrid basketball teams outside of LeBron himself.

This was further proven after LeBron left in 2010, when the Cavs averaged a .311 winning % putting them at about a 25 win pace per season.

This was the same junk that LeBron was carrying to 61 and 66 win seasons, the NBA Finals, deep playoff runs, etc.

My problem with Jordan as the unanimous GOAT is that he's never carried a team as bad as LeBron's 03-10 Cavs. While Jordan won a lot and dominated the playoffs, he always had great teams when he did so.

Whenever Jordan had bad teams, he didn't get very far in the playoffs, usually a .500 or worse record and first round and out. While I don't have a problem with anyone saying Jordan is GOAT, I would personally put him #2 after LeBron due to these reasons.

[nba_55]

If we use facts, 1st round exit! Jordan was 1-9 without the GOAT coach and without Pippen. With Mike Brown and Larry Hughes/Mo Williams he would probably do worse.

[Trollsmasher]

I think he could get to the 2nd round once or twice

[IncarceratedBob]

All I know is that the Cavs would have gotten prime Amare. LeBron nixed the deal b/c he didn't want to share the spotlight... Would be a nasty squad

[riseagainst]

One of the main reasons I rate LeBron as the greatest player of all-time is due to the extent to which he made teams full of pure horse shit overachieve. You look at the Cavs from 2003-2010 and they basically resembled a today's version of the Knicks or Lakers. They were just horrid, horrid basketball teams outside of LeBron himself.

This was further proven after LeBron left in 2010, when the Cavs averaged a .311 winning % putting them at about a 25 win pace per season.

This was the same junk that LeBron was carrying to 61 and 66 win seasons, the NBA Finals, deep playoff runs, etc.

My problem with Jordan as the unanimous GOAT is that he's never carried a team as bad as LeBron's 03-10 Cavs. While Jordan won a lot and dominated the playoffs, he always had great teams when he did so.

Whenever Jordan had bad teams, he didn't get very far in the playoffs, usually a .500 or worse record and first round and out. While I don't have a problem with anyone saying Jordan is GOAT, I would personally put him #2 after LeBron due to these reasons.


that's why you are a joke of a poster.
:oldlol:

[nba_55]

All I know is that the Cavs would have gotten prime Amare. LeBron nixed the deal b/c he didn't want to share the spotlight... Would be a nasty squad

Basically, you don't know anything.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I don't think he'd win a title with that squad but he'd 100% make it past the first round. Stop being LeBron stans.

[nba_55]

I don't think he'd win a title with that squad but he'd 100% make it past the first round. Stop being LeBron stans.
:facepalm
What you think doesn't change the fact that he wouldn't make it to the 2nd round.

[Paul George 24]

I think he could get to the 2nd round once or twice

7 champs :banana:

[DMAVS41]

I think they win the title in 09 potentially. And potentially upset the Spurs in 07.

I think 1 title in either 07 or 09 is likely.

10 is possible, but less likely in my opinion. Those Cavs in 10 weren't as good as they were in 09 and I think they lose to the Celtics or Lakers in the finals.

In 09...I think the Cavs with Lebron would have beaten the 09 Lakers (just a good matchup for the Cavs)...and I think MJ does enough defensively and managing the game against Orlando to get that series win.

It's also under-rated just how pathetic Lebron was in the 07 finals. We are talking 4th year MJ on the 07 Cavs. He isn't shitting the bed like that in the finals.

That 07 Cavs team might have been the perfect team for young MJ as well. a great defensive team with really good role players that would have allowed MJ to just be a much better version of 01 Iverson on both ends.

Now that I think more about it...I'm going to say 07 as the most likely title year.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Farther than bran

[AnaheimLakers24]

I think they win the title in 09 potentially. And potentially upset the Spurs in 07.

I think 1 title in either 07 or 09 is likely.

10 is possible, but less likely in my opinion. Those Cavs in 10 weren't as good as they were in 09 and I think they lose to the Celtics or Lakers in the finals.

In 09...I think the Cavs with Lebron would have beaten the 09 Lakers (just a good matchup for the Cavs)...and I think MJ does enough defensively and managing the game against Orlando to get that series win.

It's also under-rated just how pathetic Lebron was in the 07 finals. We are talking 4th year MJ on the 07 Cavs. He isn't shitting the bed like that in the finals.

That 07 Cavs team might have been the perfect team for young MJ as well. a great defensive team with really good role players that would have allowed MJ to just be a much better version of 01 Iverson on both ends.

Now that I think more about it...I'm going to say 07 as the most likely title year.
you always think every team can beat the 09 lakers. Get over it, kobe got a fmvp and no one else was winning that year. Shrimp dick.

cavs with jordan do better though

[2010splash]

I think they win the title in 09 potentially. And potentially upset the Spurs in 07.

I think 1 title in either 07 or 09 is likely.

10 is possible, but less likely in my opinion. Those Cavs in 10 weren't as good as they were in 09 and I think they lose to the Celtics or Lakers in the finals.

In 09...I think the Cavs with Lebron would have beaten the 09 Lakers (just a good matchup for the Cavs)...and I think MJ does enough defensively and managing the game against Orlando to get that series win.

It's also under-rated just how pathetic Lebron was in the 07 finals. We are talking 4th year MJ on the 07 Cavs. He isn't shitting the bed like that in the finals.

That 07 Cavs team might have been the perfect team for young MJ as well. a great defensive team with really good role players that would have allowed MJ to just be a much better version of 01 Iverson on both ends.

Now that I think more about it...I'm going to say 07 as the most likely title year.
Doubtful Jordan would have gotten to the Finals in 2007. Remember, that was LeBron's 48/9/7 and 25 straight points in Game 5 of the 2007 ECF year. It took one of the top 3 playoff performances in NBA history just for those sorry Cavs to beat the absolutely stacked and far superior Pistons team.

And the Spurs would have wrecked the Cavs in 2007 with Jordan in place of LeBron. Spurs were FAR, FAR better as a team.

[2010splash]

you always think every team can beat the 09 lakers. Get over it, kobe got a fmvp and no one else was winning that year. Shrimp dick.

cavs with jordan do better though
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Genaro]

I think this thread was already made.

[Paul George 24]

no one can stop prime jordan :banana:

[DMAVS41]

you always think every team can beat the 09 lakers. Get over it, kobe got a fmvp and no one else was winning that year. Shrimp dick.

cavs with jordan do better though

WHAT?

I just think the Cavs matched up really well against them...which they did.

And I don't know what teams you think I say could have beaten the 09 Lakers. The only two that year that had a chance imo was the Cavs and a healthy Celtics team.

But you are telling me the Cavs get prime MJ...yea, I'm taking them over the 09 Lakers if they get there in heartbeat....it really wouldn't be a competitive series because of the bad matchup. You throw MJ out there...and the only advantage that Lakers team has over the Cavs goes away and becomes a negative.

MJ led cavs beat the 09 Lakers in 5 if they get there. It would be getting by Orlando that would be the problem.

[dubeta]

Jordan wouldn't be able to last till 2010, he would collude by year 4 latest

[HurricaneKid]

WHAT?

I just think the Cavs matched up really well against them...which they did.

And I don't know what teams you think I say could have beaten the 09 Lakers. The only two that year that had a chance imo was the Cavs and a healthy Celtics team.

But you are telling me the Cavs get prime MJ...yea, I'm taking them over the 09 Lakers if they get there in heartbeat....it really wouldn't be a competitive series because of the bad matchup. You throw MJ out there...and the only advantage that Lakers team has over the Cavs goes away and becomes a negative.

MJ led cavs beat the 09 Lakers in 5 if they get there. It would be getting by Orlando that would be the problem.

If Dwight destroyed the Cavs and Pau destroyed Dwight, how would the Cavs have controlled the point against the best frontcourt they would have faced in the playoffs including a peak Pau?

[Beastmode88]

Jordan wouldn't be able to last till 2010, he would collude by year 4 latest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzcuUgFxn0k

[mehyaM24]

best chance would be in 2007 and 2010, but not sure they win any.

lebron played terrible in the finals, and blah in the semifinals vs boston. i could see jordan matching up better vs those particular teams (/unbiased)

[ArbitraryWater]

I think they win the title in 09 potentially. And potentially upset the Spurs in 07.

I think 1 title in either 07 or 09 is likely.

10 is possible, but less likely in my opinion. Those Cavs in 10 weren't as good as they were in 09 and I think they lose to the Celtics or Lakers in the finals.

In 09...I think the Cavs with Lebron would have beaten the 09 Lakers (just a good matchup for the Cavs)...and I think MJ does enough defensively and managing the game against Orlando to get that series win.

It's also under-rated just how pathetic Lebron was in the 07 finals. We are talking 4th year MJ on the 07 Cavs. He isn't shitting the bed like that in the finals.

That 07 Cavs team might have been the perfect team for young MJ as well. a great defensive team with really good role players that would have allowed MJ to just be a much better version of 01 Iverson on both ends.

Now that I think more about it...I'm going to say 07 as the most likely title year.

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[Keno]

no bs, jordan wouldn't even make the playoffs a few of those years.

[riseagainst]

minimum 2 finals and at least 1 ring.

[Paul George 24]

no bs, jordan wouldn't even make the playoffs a few of those years.

2-5 :banana:

[DMAVS41]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

They weren't....are you serious?

They were worse on both ends...and heavily relied on Jamsion.

LOL...it wasn't close.

[DMAVS41]

If Dwight destroyed the Cavs and Pau destroyed Dwight, how would the Cavs have controlled the point against the best frontcourt they would have faced in the playoffs including a peak Pau?

I don't think Pau would have hurt the Cavs the way Howard did. Howard's imposing athleticism did things to the Cavs that they just couldn't answer.

Pau is just a different kind of player. I don't think he hurts them like that.

[swagga]

I think they win the title in 09 potentially. And potentially upset the Spurs in 07.

I think 1 title in either 07 or 09 is likely.

10 is possible, but less likely in my opinion. Those Cavs in 10 weren't as good as they were in 09 and I think they lose to the Celtics or Lakers in the finals.

In 09...I think the Cavs with Lebron would have beaten the 09 Lakers (just a good matchup for the Cavs)...and I think MJ does enough defensively and managing the game against Orlando to get that series win.

It's also under-rated just how pathetic Lebron was in the 07 finals. We are talking 4th year MJ on the 07 Cavs. He isn't shitting the bed like that in the finals.

That 07 Cavs team might have been the perfect team for young MJ as well. a great defensive team with really good role players that would have allowed MJ to just be a much better version of 01 Iverson on both ends.

Now that I think more about it...I'm going to say 07 as the most likely title year.

are you crazy? there is no way in hell that cavs team was getting by the spurs. you put prime shaq on these cavs instead of lebron and they still aren't winning.

[OldSchoolBBall]

One of the main reasons I rate LeBron as the greatest player of all-time is due to the extent to which he made teams full of pure horse shit overachieve. You look at the Cavs from 2003-2010 and they basically resembled a today's version of the Knicks or Lakers. They were just horrid, horrid basketball teams outside of LeBron himself.

This was further proven after LeBron left in 2010, when the Cavs averaged a .311 winning % putting them at about a 25 win pace per season.

This was the same junk that LeBron was carrying to 61 and 66 win seasons, the NBA Finals, deep playoff runs, etc.

My problem with Jordan as the unanimous GOAT is that he's never carried a team as bad as LeBron's 03-10 Cavs. While Jordan won a lot and dominated the playoffs, he always had great teams when he did so.

Whenever Jordan had bad teams, he didn't get very far in the playoffs, usually a .500 or worse record and first round and out. While I don't have a problem with anyone saying Jordan is GOAT, I would personally put him #2 after LeBron due to these reasons.

Lebron doesn't do ANY better in Jordan's NBA/Eastern Conference with the teams MJ had, and Jordan does WAY better (both win total and advancing further in the postseason) if he played on Lebron's Cavs in the '05-'10 EC. They played in VERY different leagues and especially conferences. Lebron's Cavs a few years actually had more talent relative to the league and their conference opponents than Jordan's Bulls had prior to 1990.

[2010splash]

Lebron doesn't do ANY better in Jordan's NBA/Eastern Conference with the teams MJ had, and Jordan does WAY better (both win total and advancing further in the postseason) if he played on Lebron's Cavs in the '05-'10 EC. They played in VERY different leagues and especially conferences. Lebron's Cavs a few years actually had more talent relative to the league and their conference opponents than Jordan's Bulls had prior to 1990.
2007 Cavs = worst team in Finals history. Minus LeBron they were a 15 win team yet LeBron won the East with them. Whenever Jordan had comparably bad teams, he always lost in the first round.

2009 and 2010 Cavs also = horrible, awful teams that won 15-20 games after LeBron left. Yet LeBron led them to 66 and 61 wins, essentially providing 40+ wins by himself.

Jordan also had dominant teams but only with a prime Pippen, Grant or Rodman, Kukoc, and the GOAT coach.

What I'm saying is I've never seen Jordan take complete crap and turn it into gold the way LeBron did.

[SilkkTheShocker]

1st round exits every year. We saw what Jordan did on less talented teams. and they didn't win playoff games.

[SilkkTheShocker]

WHAT?

I just think the Cavs matched up really well against them...which they did.

And I don't know what teams you think I say could have beaten the 09 Lakers. The only two that year that had a chance imo was the Cavs and a healthy Celtics team.

But you are telling me the Cavs get prime MJ...yea, I'm taking them over the 09 Lakers if they get there in heartbeat....it really wouldn't be a competitive series because of the bad matchup. You throw MJ out there...and the only advantage that Lakers team has over the Cavs goes away and becomes a negative.

MJ led cavs beat the 09 Lakers in 5 if they get there. It would be getting by Orlando that would be the problem.


Get your facts straight, numb nuts. The Lakers owned the Cavs in 09. They crushed them in LA. And beat Cleveland for their first home loss of the season. 09 Lakers most definitely beat Cleveland in a series. It was 2010 where Cleveland beat them both times, when they got Shaq. they had someone to matchup with Gasol and Bynum.

[Lebron23]

Zero rings. Conference Finals Appearance. Jordan might be the greatest player of all time, but Lebron was also a Jordan level tier player in the 2009 NBA Playoffs. And in the 2010 NBA playoffs the Celtics were just too good for the Cavaliers. I still hate Mike Brown for benching JJ Hickson in favor of Antawn Jamison.

[LeBird]

no bs, jordan wouldn't even make the playoffs a few of those years.

This is really the truth. Jordan simply wasn't an "elevate a team 20 games worth" kind of player. He might have done better than Lebron in the finals due to his sheer ability to raise his game in the finals; but he wouldn't get close to it in the first place.

The reverse; Lebron might not win with the Bulls until Jordan did; but in the meantime they do much better in the RS and get deeper in the PO as a result.

[OldSchoolBBall]

2007 Cavs = worst team in Finals history. Minus LeBron they were a 15 win team yet LeBron won the East with them. Whenever Jordan had comparably bad teams, he always lost in the first round.

2009 and 2010 Cavs also = horrible, awful teams that won 15-20 games after LeBron left. Yet LeBron led them to 66 and 61 wins, essentially providing 40+ wins by himself.

Jordan also had dominant teams but only with a prime Pippen, Grant or Rodman, Kukoc, and the GOAT coach.

What I'm saying is I've never seen Jordan take complete crap and turn it into gold the way LeBron did.

And what I'm saying is that they only looked like gold (win totals and playoff success) because they played in the '05-'10 NBA/EC and not the '84-'90 NBA/EC.

[DMAVS41]

Get your facts straight, numb nuts. The Lakers owned the Cavs in 09. They crushed them in LA. And beat Cleveland for their first home loss of the season. 09 Lakers most definitely beat Cleveland in a series. It was 2010 where Cleveland beat them both times, when they got Shaq. they had someone to matchup with Gasol and Bynum.

So? I'm not talking about regular season meaningless games you clown.

Bynum wasn't even a factor in 09 compared to 10 in the playoffs.

Get your facts straight clown...talking about Cavs worried about Bynum in the 09 playoffs. Dude was a shell of what he was in the 10 playoffs.

[Straight_Ballin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0AGiq9j_Ak

No kid of today's gen will ever aspire to be like Lebron, the way kids back in the day aspired to be like Mike. I've honestly never seen a generation so shook and insecure of not having a player in their era that is GOAT. Lebron will never be GOAT, he is no MJ, and it is what it is.

[Solefade]

nah nah nah, MJ would have turned Mo Williams into the next Scottie Pippen :oldlol:

[SilkkTheShocker]

So? I'm not talking about regular season meaningless games you clown.

Bynum wasn't even a factor in 09 compared to 10 in the playoffs.

Get your facts straight clown...talking about Cavs worried about Bynum in the 09 playoffs. Dude was a shell of what he was in the 10 playoffs.

You're letting your agenda get in the way. The 2009 Cavs didn't matchup with the 09 Lakers at all. It wasn't until 2010 when Cleveland added frontcourt depth in Shaq and bigger guards (Moon, Parker) that they matched up better. You must have missed Lamar Odom rubbing his nuts on the back of Hickson's head in the 09 games. You honestly have no clue what you're talking about.

[magnax1]

Doubtful Jordan would have gotten to the Finals in 2007. Remember, that was LeBron's 48/9/7 and 25 straight points in Game 5 of the 2007 ECF year. It took one of the top 3 playoff performances in NBA history just for those sorry Cavs to beat the absolutely stacked and far superior Pistons team.

And the Spurs would have wrecked the Cavs in 2007 with Jordan in place of LeBron. Spurs were FAR, FAR better as a team.
Jordan averaged 45-5-5 3 steals and 1.6 blocks in a series in his fourth year. All on 56% shooting. The comparison between fourth year Lebron and Jordan is not close.

[2010splash]

And what I'm saying is that they only looked like gold (win totals and playoff success) because they played in the '05-'10 NBA/EC and not the '84-'90 NBA/EC.
The Celtics were the only good team in the East during the mid 80's and the rest of it was pretty crap. Jordan was making the playoffs with similarly bad teams to LeBron's Cavs with records of 30-52 and 40-42.

LeBron had teams every bit as bad as those mid 80s Bulls minus Jordan and carried them to 50 wins + the Finals, 66 wins and an ECF appearance and 61 wins.

That's what I am referring to when I say LeBron has the most dominant overall impact of any player in NBA history. Jordan was a great scorer, but is he better than LeBron at anything else? Highly doubtful.

[DMAVS41]

You're letting your agenda get in the way. The 2009 Cavs didn't matchup with the 09 Lakers at all. It wasn't until 2010 when Cleveland added frontcourt depth in Shaq and bigger guards (Moon, Parker) that they matched up better. You must have missed Lamar Odom rubbing his nuts on the back of Hickson's head in the 09 games. You honestly have no clue what you're talking about.

There is no agenda...and any team relying on Jamison to play that much isn't winning unless they are absurdly stacked...which the cavs weren't.

I called the 10 Celtics loss before the series on here directly because of that. 10 Gasol would have raped the 10 Cavs like KG did because of Jamison and just how awful he was.

The 09 Cavs were simply a much better team in my opinion and I think they would have beaten the 09 Lakers.

Stop acting like it's a crazy opinion...it simply isn't.

And just factually...the 09 Cavs were better on both sides of the ball than in 10.

I'd neg you, but you are already known as one of the worst posters here.

[3ball]

2007 Cavs = worst team in Finals history. Minus LeBron they were a 15 win team yet LeBron won the East with them.


No one respects Lebron's 2007 Finals run, because his competition in the East was the weakest of all time, especially compared to what Jordan faced:


Comparing Lebron's 2007 playoff run to Jordan's 1989 run:

Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.

1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 59.8% TS.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 54.9% TS.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 64.6% TS.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 53.7% TS.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 59.8% TS.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 53.7% TS.. 44.9% FG)


It's not remotely close - Jordan faced much better competition and performed far better against said competition.
.

[swagga]

Jordan averaged 45-5-5 3 steals and 1.6 blocks in a series in his fourth year. All on 56% shooting. The comparison between fourth year Lebron and Jordan is not close.

in a series of 5 games ..

[3ball]

in a series of 5 games ..


MJ had to produce much more for his accolades than Lebron :


Playoffs Averages Thru Age 29:

MJ: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 50.1 FG%, 35.2% 3 PT, 58.1 TS%, 119 ORtg, 29.6 PER
LB: 28.0 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 48.2 FG%, 33.3% 3 PT, 57.8 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER

Source for Jordan's PPG stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game
Source for Jordan's Advanced Stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
Source for all Lebron stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html



Finals Averages Thru Age 29:


MJ: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
LB: 24.1 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.55 BPG, 46.3 FG%, 31.2% 3 PT

For Finals data, scroll to bottom: http://swishnba.com/2014/06/05/michael-jordan-vs-lebron-james-2014-comparison/


Jordan beats Lebron in every single stat category except rebounding.. But that's just a slight gap in defensive rebounding because Jordan always had superior offensive rebounding stats in the regular season, playoffs, and Finals.

Jordan also passed better, shot 3-pointers better, and was more efficient, despite scoring 25% more in the playoffs, and 50% more in the Finals (indeed, 1.5 Finals games from Lebron = 1 Finals game from MJ).

[swagga]

Lebron doesn't do ANY better in Jordan's NBA/Eastern Conference with the teams MJ had, and Jordan does WAY better (both win total and advancing further in the postseason) if he played on Lebron's Cavs in the '05-'10 EC. They played in VERY different leagues and especially conferences. Lebron's Cavs a few years actually had more talent relative to the league and their conference opponents than Jordan's Bulls had prior to 1990.

this is such a laughable statemant. who? : mo williams? delonte west? old wally szerbizack? old big z? sasha pavlovic? eric snow? ben wallace corpse? antwan chucker jamison? shaqs corpse? jj ">amare" hickson? young andy varejao? these are ALL roleplayers at best, on a flawed team.

In a league with kobe-odom-bynum-gasol / howard-nelson-turk-pietrus-lewis / duncan-gino-manu-bowen / kg-pierce-allen-porkins-rondo you can't say they ever hard the best roster, that's just ludicrous to say it.

They had NO chance against the celtics, the magic or the spurs. NONE. Nobody ever won with a single offensive option against a championship level team. And I'm not meaning one dominant ppg scorer, I'm meaning a team with a single valid championship level scoring option. The only time a single offensive option team did win was in 94 when the rockets won against the knicks. And guess what? The knicks were also a single offensive option team, which let starks to chuck into oblvion (and trolls to say he was some great all star .. as a knicks fans this is just some bullshit).

Oldskoolball my ass, you don't know shit son, back to the drawing board.

[swagga]

MJ had to produce much more for his accolades than Lebron :


Playoffs Averages Thru Age 29:

MJ: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 50.1 FG%, 35.2% 3 PT, 58.1 TS%, 119 ORtg, 29.6 PER
LB: 28.0 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 48.2 FG%, 33.3% 3 PT, 57.8 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER

Source for Jordan's PPG stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game
Source for Jordan's Advanced Stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
Source for all Lebron stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html



Finals Averages Thru Age 29:


MJ: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
LB: 24.1 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.55 BPG, 46.3 FG%, 31.2% 3 PT

For Finals data, scroll to bottom: http://swishnba.com/2014/06/05/michael-jordan-vs-lebron-james-2014-comparison/


Jordan beats Lebron in every single stat category except rebounding.. But that's just a slight gap in defensive rebounding because Jordan always had superior offensive rebounding stats in the regular season, playoffs, and Finals.

Jordan also passed better, shot 3-pointers better, and was more efficient, despite scoring 25% more in the playoffs, and 50% more in the Finals (indeed, 1.5 Finals games from Lebron = 1 Finals game from MJ).

needs more gifs tbh.

[3ball]

needs more gifs tbh.


The massive stat advantage that Jordan has over Lebron thru 29 years old in the playoffs and Finals shows that if Jordan had replaced Lebron on the Cavs from 2003-2010, fans could've expected Jordan to perform THAT much better, as the stats indicate.

That means MJ would've had a higher playoff and Finals assist average, 3 PT percentage, and overall efficiency, despite scoring a staggering 25% more in the playoffs and 50% more in the Finals..

Infact, the stats show that Jordan would have put up better stats than Lebron in EVERY CATEGORY, except defensive rebounding.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Lebron doesn't do ANY better in Jordan's NBA/Eastern Conference with the teams MJ had, and Jordan does WAY better (both win total and advancing further in the postseason) if he played on Lebron's Cavs in the '05-'10 EC. They played in VERY different leagues and especially conferences. Lebron's Cavs a few years actually had more talent relative to the league and their conference opponents than Jordan's Bulls had prior to 1990.

Good Lord, you're a moron.

[3ball]

Whenever Jordan had comparably bad teams, he always lost in the first round.


Jordan played the greatest teams of all time in the first round (1986, 1987 Celtics), while Lebron got to play the Wizards three seasons in a row.





2009 and 2010 Cavs also = horrible


The 2009 and 2010 Cavs were considered a very deep team.. They were favored to come out of the East in both seasons but were upset both times (to Orlando in 2009, and then the Boston debacle in 2010).

Mo Williams, Delonte West, and Anthony Parker is a good backcourt... Antawn Jamison, Anderson Varejao, Shaquille O'Neal, Zydrunas Illgauskas, and JJ Hickson is a very good frontcourt.

These teams were the favorites to come out of the East and MJ's teams never underachieved - so MJ would've made the Finals both years with these teams, and then played Kobe in the Finals.

And it only took 29 PPG and 4 APG on 40% FG for Kobe to beat Boston in 2010 - we all know Jordan would've done a lot better than that and would crush Kobe in the Finals.
.

[Trollsmasher]

The massive stat advantage that Jordan has over Lebron thru 29 years old in the playoffs and Finals shows that if Jordan had replaced Lebron on the Cavs from 2003-2010, fans could've expected Jordan to perform THAT much better, as the stats indicate.

That means MJ would've had a higher playoff and Finals assist average, 3 PT percentage, and overall efficiency, despite scoring a staggering 25% more in the playoffs and 50% more in the Finals..

Infact, the stats show that Jordan would have put up better stats than Lebron in EVERY CATEGORY, except defensive rebounding.
pace

MJ would not get past the 2nd round. This is a guy who could not get past the 1st round with prime Orlando Woolridge (23ppg on 60% TS), and George Gervin as his teammates. Yeah, that kind of guy would sure play well with Mo "50% dropoff in play in the postseason" Williams as a 2nd option

[3ball]

pace


Jordan's 1987-1993 Bulls played between a 92-96 pace, same as today's 94 pace... :confusedshrug: ...

And the 1996-1998 Bulls played at a 89-91 pace, or slower than today's.

Also, most of the stats listed earlier account for pace, such as PER, WS/48, and all the efficiency measures such as FG%, TS%, 3 PT %, and ORtg - Jordan was ahead in all these categories in the playoffs and Finals thru 29 years old.

But MJ's pace-adjusted stats too - here are their Per-100 Possession stats in the playoffs thru 29 years old:

MJ: 43.9 PPG, 2.0 ORB, 6.4 DRB, 8.4 APG, 2.9 SPG, 1.2 BPG, 50.1 FG%, 35.2% 3 PT, 58.1% TS, 29.6 PER
LB: 36.3 PPG, 1.9 ORB, 9.0 DRB, 8.4 APG, 2.2 SPG, 1.1 BPG, 48.2 FG%, 33.3% 3 PT, 57.8% TS, 27.7 PER

Source for Jordan's Stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss


We don't have Per-100 Possession stats for the Finals, we know DO know MJ averaged 36 PPG to Lebron's 24.
.

[3ball]

Good Lord, you're a moron (the 2009 and 2010 Cavs didn't have more talent relative to the league)


Mo Williams, Delonte West, and Anthony Parker is a good backcourt... Antawn Jamison, Anderson Varejao, Shaquille O'Neal, Zydrunas Illgauskas, and JJ Hickson is a very good frontcourt.

This is easily more talent relative to the league.
.

[OldSchoolBBall]

this is such a laughable statemant. who? : mo williams? delonte west? old wally szerbizack? old big z? sasha pavlovic? eric snow? ben wallace corpse? antwan chucker jamison? shaqs corpse? jj ">amare" hickson? young andy varejao? these are ALL roleplayers at best, on a flawed team.

In a league with kobe-odom-bynum-gasol / howard-nelson-turk-pietrus-lewis / duncan-gino-manu-bowen / kg-pierce-allen-porkins-rondo you can't say they ever hard the best roster, that's just ludicrous to say it.

They had NO chance against the celtics, the magic or the spurs. NONE. Nobody ever won with a single offensive option against a championship level team. And I'm not meaning one dominant ppg scorer, I'm meaning a team with a single valid championship level scoring option. The only time a single offensive option team did win was in 94 when the rockets won against the knicks. And guess what? The knicks were also a single offensive option team, which let starks to chuck into oblvion (and trolls to say he was some great all star .. as a knicks fans this is just some bullshit).

Oldskoolball my ass, you don't know shit son, back to the drawing board.

Who said that had the most talent or close to the most talented roster in the league? I said that, relative to the '05-'10 NBA/EC, the Cavs had more talent than those Bulls had as compared to the '84-'89 NBA/EC. This is true.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Good Lord, you're a moron.

Uhh, it's true.

[warriorfan]

Mo Williams, Delonte West, and Anthony Parker is a good backcourt... Antawn Jamison, Anderson Varejao, Shaquille O'Neal, Zydrunas Illgauskas, and JJ Hickson is a very good frontcourt.


Mo Williams was a good ball handler and a great scorer.
West and Anthony Parker are solid 3&D guys. (Perfect for LeBron ball dominated system)


Antawn Jamison is basically Lamarcus Aldridge with less D (Varejao and Hickson pick up the slack in that catagory).
Shaquille O'Neal could still be used in limited minutes and was still a matchup nightmare.
Varejao was a great high energy guy with high impact.
Big Z was getting older as well but he is still a 7'3'' Body with a good shot.
JJ Hickson was a respectable player, young hustle guy who would do the dirty work.





LeBron had an amazing and complete squad built around him, it was nobodies fault but his.

[3ball]

Mo Williams was a good ball handler and a great scorer.
West and Anthony Parker are solid 3&D guys. (Perfect for LeBron ball dominated system)


Antawn Jamison is basically Lamarcus Aldridge with less D (Varejao and Hickson pick up the slack in that catagory).
Shaquille O'Neal could still be used in limited minutes and was still a matchup nightmare.
Varejao was a great high energy guy with high impact.
Big Z was getting older as well but he is still a 7'3'' Body with a good shot.
JJ Hickson was a respectable player, young hustle guy who would do the dirty work.





LeBron had an amazing and complete squad built around him, it was nobodies fault but his.


This team was the #1 seed and prohibitive favorite to come out of the East in 2009 and 2010 - but Lebron lost as the favorite both years, which means his team underachieved.

But keep in mind that Lebron's style (ball-dominant) has always reduced the stats of his NON-role player teammates (Bosh, Love and Wade), which prevents the team from maximizing it's overall production and reaching it's ceiling.

Otoh, Jordan's off-ball style allowed his teammates to realize their statistical capacity alongside him, which enabled the team to maximize it's production and reach it's ceiling - Jordan's teams always reached their ceiling, which meant they never underachieved.

Since Jordan's teams never underachieved, and since the 2009 and 2010 Cavs were considered a very deep team and the prohibitive favorites to come out of the East, MJ would have realized this capacity and fulfilled expectations by making the Finals - again, this is a stark contrast to Lebron getting upset as the favorite each year (Orlando in 2009, then the Boston debacle in 2010).

Once fulfilling the Cavs expectations and reaching the Finals, Jordan, would have faced Kobe in the Finals - and I think we all know how that would have gone.

[warriorfan]

This team was the #1 seed and prohibitive favorite to come out of the East in 2009 and 2010 - but Lebron lost as the favorite both years, which means his team underachieved.

But keep in mind that Lebron's style (ball-dominant) has always reduced the stats of his NON-role player teammates (Bosh, Love and Wade), which prevents the team from maximizing it's overall production and reaching it's ceiling.

Otoh, Jordan's off-ball style allowed his teammates to realize their statistical capacity alongside him, which enabled the team to maximize it's production and reach it's ceiling - Jordan's teams always reached their ceiling, which meant they never underachieved.

Since Jordan's teams never underachieved, and since the 2009 and 2010 Cavs were considered a very deep team and the prohibitive favorites to come out of the East, MJ would have realized this capacity and fulfilled expectations by making the Finals - again, this is a stark contrast to Lebron getting upset as the favorite each year (Orlando in 2009, then the Boston debacle in 2010).

Once fulfilling the Cavs expectations and reaching the Finals, Jordan, would have faced Kobe in the Finals - and I think we all know how that would have gone.


You have a great point with LeBron's system diminishing the statistical output of his team mates, creating an illusion that LeBron's teammates aren't as good as they really are. This is a very real and true thing that works across the board when looking at player averages before and after playing with LeBron.

[Hey Yo]

Jordan played the greatest teams of all time in the first round (1986, 1987 Celtics), while Lebron got to play the Wizards three seasons in a row.



The 2009 and 2010 Cavs were considered a very deep team.. They were favored to come out of the East in both seasons but were upset both times (to Orlando in 2009, and then the Boston debacle in 2010).

Mo Williams, Delonte West, and Anthony Parker is a good backcourt... Antawn Jamison, Anderson Varejao, Shaquille O'Neal, Zydrunas Illgauskas, and JJ Hickson is a very good frontcourt.

These teams were the favorites to come out of the East and MJ's teams never underachieved - so MJ would've made the Finals both years with these teams, and then played Kobe in the Finals.

And it only took 29 PPG and 4 APG on 40% FG for Kobe to beat Boston in 2010 - we all know Jordan would've done a lot better than that and would crush Kobe in the Finals.
.
:oldlol: Worst trolling ever ^^^

Mo Williams = first player off the bench after being traded from Cleveland the following season.
West = out of the league after 2012 season
Parker = out of the league after 2012 season
Varejao = non-starter
Jamison = serviceable
Shaq = retired after the following season
Big Z = reired after the following season
Hickson = 2nd year 21yr old, below serviceable.

[Hey Yo]

You have a great point with LeBron's system diminishing the statistical output of his team mates, creating an illusion that LeBron's teammates aren't as good as they really are. This is a very real and true thing that works across the board when looking at player averages before and after playing with LeBron.
Examples of these said players?

[Smoke117]

this is such a laughable statemant. who? : mo williams? delonte west? old wally szerbizack? old big z? sasha pavlovic? eric snow? ben wallace corpse? antwan chucker jamison? shaqs corpse? jj ">amare" hickson? young andy varejao? these are ALL roleplayers at best, on a flawed team.

In a league with kobe-odom-bynum-gasol / howard-nelson-turk-pietrus-lewis / duncan-gino-manu-bowen / kg-pierce-allen-porkins-rondo you can't say they ever hard the best roster, that's just ludicrous to say it.

They had NO chance against the celtics, the magic or the spurs. NONE. Nobody ever won with a single offensive option against a championship level team. And I'm not meaning one dominant ppg scorer, I'm meaning a team with a single valid championship level scoring option. The only time a single offensive option team did win was in 94 when the rockets won against the knicks. And guess what? The knicks were also a single offensive option team, which let starks to chuck into oblvion (and trolls to say he was some great all star .. as a knicks fans this is just some bullshit).

Oldskoolball my ass, you don't know shit son, back to the drawing board.

Story of his life. The clown never has anything to say worth reading.

[warriorfan]

Examples of these said players?


Love Wade Bosh Jamison Chalmers Williams

[Hey Yo]

Love Wade Bosh Jamison Chalmers Williams
You said before AND after.

None of the above fit that criteria

[HurricaneKid]

I don't think Pau would have hurt the Cavs the way Howard did. Howard's imposing athleticism did things to the Cavs that they just couldn't answer.

Pau is just a different kind of player. I don't think he hurts them like that.

Pau would have done the same thing. He might not look it but he was very strong and quite agile. Strong enough to push Dwight around the next week. He would have moved around Z like he was standing still and pushed around Varejao like a bully. Pau almost singlehandedly took out Team USA from the block. He took out Dwight in the Finals. And you are saying he wouldn't have caused problems for Z and Andy? Seems to me you are out on the branch on this one.

[3ball]

You have a great point with LeBron's system diminishing the statistical output of his team mates, creating an illusion that LeBron's teammates aren't as good as they really are.

This is a very real and true thing that works across the board when looking at player averages before and after playing with LeBron.


Exactly - now on the flipside, Jordan's off-ball style (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10862372&postcount=18) allowed his teammates to realize their statistical capacity alongside him, which enabled the team to maximize it's production and reach it's ceiling - Jordan's teams always reached their ceiling, which meant they never underachieved.

Since Jordan's teams never underachieved, and since the 2009 and 2010 Cavs were considered a very deep team and the prohibitive favorites to come out of the East, MJ would have realized this capacity and fulfilled expectations by making the Finals - again, this is a stark contrast to Lebron getting upset both of these seasons (Orlando in 2009, then the Boston debacle in 2010).

Once fulfilling the Cavs expectations and reaching the Finals in 2009 and 2010, Jordan would have faced Kobe in the Finals - and I think we all know how that would have gone.

[2010splash]

The outcome of the 2009 and 2010 playoffs was LeBron's teammates' fault. They were the ones who vanished, unlike LeBron.

LeBron was especially dominant in 2009 with probably the greatest playoff run in history - 35/9/7 on 51% FG, 62% TS and a 37.4 (!?!) PER.

Jordan never had a PER above 33 in the playoffs, as good as he was. Plus, when you adjust for pace LeBron's 2009 playoff line comes out to 40.3 PPG, 10.7 RPG, 8.8 APG on 57.3 FG%. Basically video game stats.

I am afraid anybody who places even 1% of the blame for the Cavs' playoff failures in 2009 and 2010 might suffer from mild delusion and/or retardation.

[knicksman]

hughes would become his pippen. So 6/6 still

[knicksman]

bosh>>pippen
wade>>pippen

but 2/5

no excuses

[knicksman]

This is really the truth. Jordan simply wasn't an "elevate a team 20 games worth" kind of player. He might have done better than Lebron in the finals due to his sheer ability to raise his game in the finals; but he wouldn't get close to it in the first place.

The reverse; Lebron might not win with the Bulls until Jordan did; but in the meantime they do much better in the RS and get deeper in the PO as a result.

Jordan + Rodman from 45 to 72. Bran + Bosh=47 to 58

jordan=6/6
bran 2/5

[3ball]

MJ had to produce much more for his accolades than Lebron :


Playoffs Averages Thru Age 29:

MJ: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 50.1 FG%, 35.2% 3 PT, 58.1 TS%, 29.6 PER
LB: 28.0 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 48.2 FG%, 33.3% 3 PT, 57.8 TS%, 27.7 PER

Source for Jordan's PPG stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game
Source for Jordan's Advanced Stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
Source for all Lebron stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html


Finals Averages Thru Age 29:

MJ: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
LB: 24.1 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.55 BPG, 46.3 FG%, 31.2% 3 PT

For Finals data, scroll to bottom: http://swishnba.com/2014/06/05/michael-jordan-vs-lebron-james-2014-comparison/


Jordan beats Lebron in every single stat category except rebounding.. And even that is just a slight gap in defensive rebounding because Jordan always had superior offensive rebounding stats in the regular season, playoffs, and Finals.

Jordan also passed better, shot 3-pointers better, and was more efficient, despite scoring 25% more in the playoffs, and 50% more in the Finals (indeed, 1.5 Finals games from Lebron = 1 Finals game from MJ).


THREAD CLIFFS:

Based on their stats thru age 29 shown above, if MJ replaced Lebron on 2003-2010 Cavs, he would have averaged 34.7 PPG and 6.6 APG in the playoffs instead of the Lebron's 28.0 PPG and 6.3 APG - and Jordan would have had higher stats in virtually every other category, except defensive rebounds.

MJ's higher stats and corresponding performance would have resulted in the Cavs reaching the Finals in 2009 and 2010, as they were favored to do.. Once in the Finals, it would have been MJ vs. Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

Pau would have done the same thing. He might not look it but he was very strong and quite agile. Strong enough to push Dwight around the next week. He would have moved around Z like he was standing still and pushed around Varejao like a bully. Pau almost singlehandedly took out Team USA from the block. He took out Dwight in the Finals. And you are saying he wouldn't have caused problems for Z and Andy? Seems to me you are out on the branch on this one.


Why do you always straw man?

Take a look at the bold.

Where did I say he wouldn't cause any problems?????

I simply said he wouldn't have hurt them as much as Dwight would have in my opinion.

[tpols]

Why do you always straw man?

Take a look at the bold.

Where did I say he wouldn't cause any problems?????

I simply said he wouldn't have hurt them as much as Dwight would have in my opinion.

I don't agree Cleveland would easily beat LA.. but it would be a close series either way. Orlando just got retarded hot against cleveland. And it had almost nothing to do with dwight.. I remember hedo came out of nowhere and was creating everything along with all their shooters just going off.

Cleveland was a real good offensive team.. gritty rebounding and defense as well.. the exact thing that makes pau blush. The series would be a battle.

[andgar923]

Once MJ had a team good enough to 'contend' there was no looking back.

Bron on the other hand....

[DMAVS41]

I don't agree Cleveland would easily beat LA.. but it would be a close series either way. Orlando just got retarded hot against cleveland. And it had almost nothing to do with dwight.. I remember hedo came out of nowhere and was creating everything along with all their shooters just going off.

Cleveland was a real good offensive team.. gritty rebounding and defense as well.. the exact thing that makes pau blush. The series would be a battle.

I think you must be forgetting how good Howard was in that series. I totally agree that the Magic just got stupid hot and made some absurd shots, but Howard destroyed the Cavs.

He had a 26/13/3 69% TS series....how on earth you could claim it had nothing to do with Howard is crazy.

And I didn't say easily with Lebron...I said they would have easily won with prime MJ...which they would have. Kobe isn't outplaying MJ...and the rest of the matchups just weren't good for the Lakers imo.

[SamuraiSWISH]

'85 MJ on 2003 Cavs - 1st Round
'86 MJ on 2005 Cavs w/ foot injury - No Playoffs
'87 MJ on 2006 Cavs - 2nd Round
'88 MJ on 2007 Cavs - Finals
'89 MJ on 2008 Cavs - Finals
'90 MJ on 2009 Cavs - Champs
'91 MJ on 2010 Cavs - Champs

[2010splash]

'85 MJ on 2003 Cavs - 1st Round
'86 MJ on 2005 Cavs w/ foot injury - No Playoffs
'87 MJ on 2006 Cavs - 2nd Round
'88 MJ on 2007 Cavs - Finals
'89 MJ on 2008 Cavs - Finals
'90 MJ on 2009 Cavs - Champs
'91 MJ on 2010 Cavs - Champs
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :wtf: :wtf:

[Smoke117]

'85 MJ on 2003 Cavs - 1st Round
'86 MJ on 2005 Cavs w/ foot injury - No Playoffs
'87 MJ on 2006 Cavs - 2nd Round
'88 MJ on 2007 Cavs - Finals
'89 MJ on 2008 Cavs - Finals
'90 MJ on 2009 Cavs - Champs
'91 MJ on 2010 Cavs - Champs

Since the "what if" game is in effect, if KG never goes down, the Celtics three peat. Jordan replacing Lebron is not getting them past a healthy Celtics in 2009 or 2010. 2008? Probably since Ray was so swept up with his son in the hospital he gave the Celtics nothing till the ECF.

[knicksman]

Face it bran stans. Bran wasnt losing because of teammates but because hes a loser. Once the winner(wade) declines, hes done and has to jump ship to another batman(kyrie)

[swagga]

Who said that had the most talent or close to the most talented roster in the league? I said that, relative to the '05-'10 NBA/EC, the Cavs had more talent than those Bulls had as compared to the '84-'89 NBA/EC. This is true.

teams in the EC in that time with clearly superior talent :
detroit pistons just off a ring: billups - ben wallace- sheed- billups - alot of good role players
miami with: peak wade - shaq - walker - old payton - old zo plus a shitload of roleplayers
orlando: peak dwight howard - peak turk - peak jameer - ryan anderson - peak piertrus - gortat - peak alston - rashard lewis
boston: kg-pierce-ray-rondo-porkins-tony allen-other role players

you were saying?


fyi woolridge, oakley, corzine, paxson were there in that period. yes boston and detroit were clearly better.
but so were boston 08-09-10, orlando 09, detroit 05, or miami 06.
that one year where they caught detroit sleeping a bit (with monster performances from lebron) they got to the finals where the spurs tore them a new one.

[LakersFan626]

I think they win the title in 09 potentially. And potentially upset the Spurs in 07.

I think 1 title in either 07 or 09 is likely.

10 is possible, but less likely in my opinion. Those Cavs in 10 weren't as good as they were in 09 and I think they lose to the Celtics or Lakers in the finals.

In 09...I think the Cavs with Lebron would have beaten the 09 Lakers (just a good matchup for the Cavs)...and I think MJ does enough defensively and managing the game against Orlando to get that series win.

It's also under-rated just how pathetic Lebron was in the 07 finals. We are talking 4th year MJ on the 07 Cavs. He isn't shitting the bed like that in the finals.

That 07 Cavs team might have been the perfect team for young MJ as well. a great defensive team with really good role players that would have allowed MJ to just be a much better version of 01 Iverson on both ends.

Now that I think more about it...I'm going to say 07 as the most likely title year.

Lakers swept them and their bigs dominated Cleveland that year (Pau on MLK day and Odom in Cleveland), so no way was that a good matchup for Cleveland in 2009. And for Smoke117, I doubt Boston would have beat the Lakers in 2009 with KG either as they were swept in the regular season and the Lakers wanted revenge on them VERY badly.

I don't see much difference in 2009 with MJ (LeBron was amazing in that series) but I think they'd get to the finals in 2010, for the sole reason being that Jordan would not quit in game 5 when the series was tied. They'd also have a good chance of winning in 2010 too as the Laker offense wasn't as good in 2010 as it was in 2009.

[Jacks3]

Who cares if LeBron is better at elevating horrible rosters? Jordan was better at elevating good to great rosters and that's far more important.

[ImKobe]

in this era? with handchecking being completely banned? If Kobe's dropping 35 ppg on 45% shooting, just imagine what prime Jordan would do.

2 titles at least.

[ImKobe]

Who cares if LeBron is better at elevating horrible rosters? Jordan was better at elevating good to great rosters and that's far more important.

Take into account that rules are different..40 yr old MJ averaged 20/6/4 on 45% shooting in 02-03 with 37 wins on a team that had a horrible starting 5 outside of Stack and no bench...now put prime Jordan in this era...it's not fair.

We know he'd be a better offensive and defensive player and with a jump shot.

Are we going to act like MJ in 89 didn't lead his team to the WCF, where they lost in 6 to a stacked Detroit team with every game being decided within 10 points...with no Phil and a Pippen who was in his 2nd year and was just becoming a starter :rolleyes:



But somehow MJ putting up 35/7/7/3 on 51% shooting and leading his team to the WCF is less impressive than Bran putting up 25/8/8/2 on 42% shooting in 07...

Or MJ's 1990 Playoff run, where he put up 37/7/7/3/1 on 51% shooting

MJ in 1990 had a BPM of 14.3 in the POs, Bran 8.1 and a MJ .3 higher total WS despite playing 6 less games :rolleyes:

and Bran's 2nd option Big Z had a WS/48 of .173 while Horace Grant had a WS/48 of .122

Peak Jordan in this era would have won even more accolades and a 30 ppg career at the very least.

[HurricaneKid]

Why do you always straw man?

Take a look at the bold.

Where did I say he wouldn't cause any problems?????

I simply said he wouldn't have hurt them as much as Dwight would have in my opinion.

Then you need to write what you mean:


I don't think Pau would have hurt the Cavs...

Pau is just a different kind of player. I don't think he hurts them like that.

As another poster pointed out, Odom and Pau had already destroyed LeBron's frontcourt that year. Twice.

[DMAVS41]

Then you need to write what you mean:



As another poster pointed out, Odom and Pau had already destroyed LeBron's frontcourt that year. Twice.

Dude...I very clearly said he wouldn't have caused them as many problems as Howard did. I really have to make it clear that I think Pau is a good player and would of course make the Cavs work...like...that isn't just obvious. It's about comparing him to what Howard did.

And you have Lakers fans like tpols claiming "Howard had nothing to do with winning that series"...which is absurd. People have forgotten how much Howard hurt the Cavs inside.

It's funny because you and many others accused me of being to high on Pau...now the guy all you Lakers fans trashed repeatedly and undersold to prop your hero...is going to be expected to do 26/13/3 at near 70% TS while playing elite Howard level defense. LOL...talk about not being able to keep your thoughts in line. And no, Pau wasn't doing that to the Cavs in my opinion.

Pau simply isn't, in my opinion, doing 26/13/3 at near 70% TS and playing great defense the way Howard did.

Also, Lebron played really poorly in those 2 regular season matchups so it skews it quite a bit. 2 regular season matchups in which Lebron played like trash (at least in 1 iirc)...I don't care much about that. And the Cavs would have had homecourt...which would have been huge actually.

[DMV2]

They wouldn't have collapsed against Orlando and Jordan sure as hell wouldnt have quit in Boston.

[LeBird]

Exactly - now on the flipside, Jordan's off-ball style (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10862372&postcount=18) allowed his teammates to realize their statistical capacity alongside him, which enabled the team to maximize it's production and reach it's ceiling - Jordan's teams always reached their ceiling, which meant they never underachieved.

:lol Is this mofo for real? Jordan was one of the biggest ball hogs of all time. He has the all-time record for usage. Jordan is exactly the opposite of the above.


This is like saying Wilt wasn't a great volume scorer, Magic wasn't a great passer, or Rodman couldn't get rebounds. You have to be stupid or plain lying.


Once MJ had a team good enough to 'contend' there was no looking back.

Bron on the other hand....

Lebron took a team that had no business being in the playoffs to the NBA finals.

[DatAsh]

:lol Is this mofo for real? Jordan was one of the biggest ball hogs of all time. He has the all-time record for usage. Jordan is exactly the opposite of the above.


This is like saying Wilt wasn't a great volume scorer, Magic wasn't a great passer, or Rodman couldn't get rebounds. You have to be stupid or plain lying.


He's actually right though. Ignoring all the fluff of "maximizing potential, ceilings, ect...", Jordan actually was an outstanding off-ball player, and needed the ball much less than Lebron to be at 100%.

As for the question in the OP? I see Jordan having slightly less success than Lebron had with those teams, though not by much. I just don't think Jordan is capable of carrying an offense the way Lebron was in those years. Lebron's game is better at creating shots for guys around him that can't create their own, and that's a big part of what those teams needed.

[ImKobe]

He's actually right though. Ignoring all the fluff of "maximizing potential, ceilings, ect...", Jordan actually was an outstanding off-ball player, and needed the ball much less than Lebron to be at 100%.

As for the question in the OP? I see Jordan having slightly less success than Lebron had with those teams, though not by much. I just don't think Jordan is capable of carrying an offense the way Lebron was in those years. Lebron's game is better at creating shots for guys around him that can't create their own, and that's a big part of what those teams needed.

You have obviously not watched MJ play....he was as talented of a passer as any SG/SF in NBA history and he could carry a bigger scoring load than Lebron...not to mention play the best perimeter defense.

[Trollsmasher]

They wouldn't have collapsed against Orlando and Jordan sure as hell wouldnt have quit in Boston.
1) They wouldn't have collapsed because they wouldn't even be in the games. Jordan never put up great stats against 1st ranked defenses while LeBron had the best series of all time against Orlando and it was worth just 2 games for the Cavs. It's not like Jordan could put up better stats or shutdown either Dwight or an entire all time great shooting perimeter by himself.

2) Boston would just **** him over defensively. Pistons managed to do that several times with just 'roughness'. Now add an actually quality, intelligent defense to that roughness and you will be left with a crying, quivering mess of Jordan he has always been without a stacked team around him. Before making his Decision he would spend few days in Stern's office whining for rule changes and outlawing of zone.

[Paul George 24]

1) They wouldn't have collapsed because they wouldn't even be in the games. Jordan never put up great stats against 1st ranked defenses while LeBron had the best series of all time against Orlando and it was worth just 2 games for the Cavs. It's not like Jordan could put up better stats or shutdown either Dwight or an entire all time great shooting perimeter by himself.

2) Boston would just **** him over defensively. Pistons managed to do that several times with just 'roughness'. Now add an actually quality, intelligent defense to that roughness and you will be left with a crying, quivering mess of Jordan he has always been without a stacked team around him. Before making his Decision he would spend few days in Stern's office whining for rule changes and outlawing of zone.
are u kidding me ? Jordan never put up great stats against 1st ranked defenses:roll:

[ImKobe]

1) They wouldn't have collapsed because they wouldn't even be in the games. Jordan never put up great stats against 1st ranked defenses while LeBron had the best series of all time against Orlando and it was worth just 2 games for the Cavs. It's not like Jordan could put up better stats or shutdown either Dwight or an entire all time great shooting perimeter by himself.

2) Boston would just **** him over defensively. Pistons managed to do that several times with just 'roughness'. Now add an actually quality, intelligent defense to that roughness and you will be left with a crying, quivering mess of Jordan he has always been without a stacked team around him. Before making his Decision he would spend few days in Stern's office whining for rule changes and outlawing of zone.

If Kobe is putting up 32/5/7 against Orlando...what the hell do you think MJ would have done? Oh, I guess you think Kobe is a better player than MJ :applause:

[Trollsmasher]

If Kobe is putting up 32/5/7 against Orlando...what the hell do you think MJ would have done? Oh, I guess you think Kobe is a better player than MJ :applause:
On 52% TS. LeBron put up 39/8/8 on 59% TS so MJ would fit nicely between the two while still losing the series in less than 6

[knicksman]

1) They wouldn't have collapsed because they wouldn't even be in the games. Jordan never put up great stats against 1st ranked defenses while LeBron had the best series of all time against Orlando and it was worth just 2 games for the Cavs. It's not like Jordan could put up better stats or shutdown either Dwight or an entire all time great shooting perimeter by himself.

2) Boston would just **** him over defensively. Pistons managed to do that several times with just 'roughness'. Now add an actually quality, intelligent defense to that roughness and you will be left with a crying, quivering mess of Jordan he has always been without a stacked team around him. Before making his Decision he would spend few days in Stern's office whining for rule changes and outlawing of zone.

Jordan never put up great stats? They must have changed math rules to make 2/5>>6/6

[2010splash]

Jordan never put up great stats? They must have changed math rules to make 2/5>>6/6
Yeah, but ask yourself who Jordan's competition in the Finals was. The Jazz, Suns and Sonics? Not really very good teams. The Spurs, Thunder, Mavs are better than them all... especially the Spurs and Thunder.

Jordan was great, but did he ever have a 37.4 PER in the playoffs? Cus LeBron did.

[JohnFreeman]

I don't see Jordan doing that much better to be honest

[knicksman]

Yeah, but ask yourself who Jordan's competition in the Finals was. The Jazz, Suns and Sonics? Not really very good teams. The Spurs, Thunder, Mavs are better than them all... especially the Spurs and Thunder.

Jordan was great, but did he ever have a 37.4 PER in the playoffs? Cus LeBron did.

spurs who were first round fodders since 2008?:coleman: 6/6>>2/5

[SamuraiSWISH]

Since the "what if" game is in effect, if KG never goes down, the Celtics three peat.
No, we're just swaping MJ for LeBron straight up, context of everything else remains the same ... thought that was quite obvious.

Oh, and the Celtics didn't win in 2010. With KG. So how is it a 3-peat?

And if 2009 LeBron put up 39/8/8 ... I don't see why '90 MJ wouldn't put up similar all around numbers, because he did in '89 - '91, and Jordan would probably put up 5 more ppg given their career playoff averages differ 28 ppg to 34 ppg.

I think prime / peak MJ's combo of skill, all around game, mental toughness, and a clutch ability that LeBron @ the time clearly lacked would push them over the top.

Don't see him quitting mid series in a winnable confrontation with the 2010 Celtics either.

'90 MJ on the 2009 Cavs is very much a championship winning team given that season's context.

'91, arguably peak MJ, on the 2010 Cavs is very much a championship winning team given that season's context, and the fact he isn't a full on quitter.


Jordan replacing Lebron is not getting them past a healthy Celtics in 2009 or 2010. 2008? Probably since Ray was so swept up with his son in the hospital he gave the Celtics nothing till the ECF.
What does 2008 have to do with anything? If the Hawks, and young Cavs w/ pre prime LeBron were pushing the Celtics to 7 ... I don't see why '89 MJ on that team couldn't do the same.

As I said, MJ on those 2009, and 2010 Cavs is very much winnable against the Celtics or whoever in the West.

But no one said in the original post to alter the context of health for those Celtics teams. Injuries are apart of the sport. We're simply swapping out MJ for LeBron.

That's the point.

:facepalm