Peak for peak, how big is the gap between Lebron and Bird *defensively*?

[Milbuck]

How big is the gap between Lebron and Bird on defense only, at their defensive peaks?

[JerrySeinfeld]

In before kids start acting like Bird didn't make all defensive 2nd team three years in a row.

[magnax1]

Not very big. Bran only had 2-3 years where he was an elite defender anyway. Bird was a very good defender, while not top 5 or anything. Lebron might've been one of the five best defenders for 2 years, if that. Maybe just 2011.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron's defense overall seems pretty under-rated here actually. He's an all time great defender in my opinion.

That said, Bird's defense is also under-rated.

I'd say it's a clear gap, but probably not as big as ignorant Bird haters and Lebron stans will make it out to be.

[Harison]

Ironically, Lebron peaked higher as a defender, but he has no consistency and will to be great defender too. Bird was much more consistent effort wise, smarter too.

When you think about it, Lebron's body with Bird's mind would be GOAT, I have no doubt about that.

[NustABut]

Lebron's defense overall seems pretty under-rated here actually. He's an all time great defender in my opinion.

That said, Bird's defense is also under-rated.

I'd say it's a clear gap, but probably not as big as ignorant Bird haters and Lebron stans will make it out to be.

When he tries.... There will be times where he plays lazy D and sags way off to try to steal passes, good teams will know how to exploit that

[2010splash]

I've watched Bird's entire career and I can tell you that he's one of the more overrated players of all time precisely because of his poor defense. In today's game he would be the 3rd best SF after LeBron and Durant yet in the 80s he was the clear cut best SF, so today's era is more difficult.

LeBron is a far, far, far superior defensive player to Bird. It's not even close. The only wing defender ever comparable to LeBron is Pippen, and I'd rank them 1 and 2 in that order.

LeBron is a top 3 all time defensive player along with Pippen and Duncan. I would put Jordan and Garnett in the top 5 right behind both as well.

The gap between LeBron and Bird's defense is like the gap between Magic Johnson and Rajon Rondo's offense. It is not even close.

[ShawkFactory]

Bird was in the right place at the right time A LOT. Testimony to his basketball savantness.

But yea peak Brons overall impact >>>>

[riseagainst]

I've watched Bird's entire career and I can tell you that he's one of the more overrated players of all time precisely because of his poor defense. In today's game he would be the 3rd best SF after LeBron and Durant yet in the 80s he was the clear cut best SF, so today's era is more difficult.

LeBron is a far, far, far superior defensive player to Bird. It's not even close. The only wing defender ever comparable to LeBron is Pippen, and I'd rank them 1 and 2 in that order.

LeBron is a top 3 all time defensive player along with Pippen and Duncan. I would put Jordan and Garnett in the top 5 right behind both as well.

The gap between LeBron and Bird's defense is like the gap between Magic Johnson and Rajon Rondo's offense. It is not even close.

:roll:

:coleman:

[swagga]

Not very big. Bran only had 2-3 years where he was an elite defender anyway. Bird was a very good defender, while not top 5 or anything. Lebron might've been one of the five best defenders for 2 years, if that. Maybe just 2011.

note : i saw bird play live, and even though I am a magic stan I greatly respect bird's game. but comparing him with lebron defensively is a joke.

Bird defended with parish and mchale covering his ass, and he always stayed hidden away from the 1st offensive options (jordan, magic, nique, erving, etc). He defended in an era where handchecking and roughing up people was allowed, which greatly negated his lack of athletic ability and his pedestrian lateral quickness. He was very smart and a good team defender, with great fundamentals, but he was never talked about for his defense. He never dominated games defensively. He was not versatile, you could not use him as a rim protector or to guard a pg. He knew how to use his body to get defensive rebounds very well, he had fast hands and a great sense of anticipation. But you couldn't hope to put him to guard durant/kobe/lebron man to man. Without mchale and parish covering the lane he would have been more exposed.

lebron started being a very good defender in early 2007, and for the 2009-2012 stretch he was a legitimate DPOY candidate, in a league with howard, hibbert, marc gasol, noah, tony allen and the like. lebron is also a much more versatile defender, he can guard 1-4 effectively which only a handful of players could in the history of the game (pippen, matrix, rodman, etc) . The only dominant defensive big he ever had was the corpse of ben wallace, and that only for a couple of seasons. So he didn't get to gamble and he didn't have a safety net behind him. And he got some of the most ridiculous assignments like guarding kobe/durant/melo/wade(as a cav)/pierce/george/b. roy/etc. He also was the best defender for his team in 2005-2013.

Trolls might tell you that lebron had great defenseive teams. The cavs were considered a great defensive team by points allowed per game, which is flawed, because the cavs where always among the teams with the slowest pace in the game. And we all know just how vital lebron's defense was for the heat. So he really carried a heavy load defensively, he didn't get easy games.

Trolls might also say that bird had more blocks or steals, but is tony allen a leader in blocks or steals? was rodman? or how about shawn marion? Real defense is seen in under performing opponents.


the difference between bird and lebron is truly large on the defensive end. tbh, just imagine lebron without handchecking and allowed to be more physical ... just ridiculous :lol

[pauk]

I never thought Bird was individually a good defender, but he survived with his hustling and smart team defense like Magic Johnson..... Lebron is an all time great defender, he doesnt specialize on one spot or position, there are guys even today who are better against specific perimeter d or interior d, but they are not allround defenders, they cant help anywhere else like he can, he is limitless, he just covers it all very well, inside and out, guarding a PG or Center.... the only versatile defenders we ever had like this before was Pistons Rodman and Pippen somewhat... as versatile as Pippen was Lebron and Pistons Rodman were even more versatile, Pippen didnt have the same size-strength to hold his own against PFs-Cs as well as Lebron or pistons Rodman...

So i dont know how to explain how big of a gap there is... but there is...

[Trollsmasher]

Pippen
LeBron

power gap

gap

Bird

[Smoke117]

Lebron's defense overall seems pretty under-rated here actually. He's an all time great defender in my opinion.

That said, Bird's defense is also under-rated.

I'd say it's a clear gap, but probably not as big as ignorant Bird haters and Lebron stans will make it out to be.

Not really. He was a below average defender to average defender his first few years, then he developed into a good defender, and then into a great for a little bit. To call him an all time great defender is ludicrous though. The impact nor the effort has been there throughout his career for that nonsense.

[ShawkFactory]

Not really. He was a below average defender to average defender his first few years, then he developed into a good defender, and then into a great for a little bit. To call him an all time great defender is ludicrous though. The impact nor the effort has been there through his career for that nonsense.
Agreed. Although in his best years his overall impact was matched by few. Perimeter-wise at least.

[SHAQisGOAT]

LeBron's CLEARLY a better defensive player than Bird but the gap isn't what you'd call BIG...

With that said, Bron is better mostly due to athleticism; for example Larry didn't have the lateral quickness to shut down guys on the perimeter or something.
Still, LB did a whole lot with what he had, he was even "forced" to play more as a SF (wouldn't "happen" nearly as much today) when he was more of a beastly all-around stretch 4.

Celtics were bottom3 in DRtg in 1979, then in 1980 with Bird, coach Fitch and basically the same core roster they jumped to top5... Larry being 1st in DWS and 6th in DRtg.
No McHale, Parish or DJ yet, for the matter.

Larry was 4x league leader in DWS, 7x top5; and once 2nd in DRtg, 6x top10...
Other forwards across history who did something similar, at least once? Duncan, Rodman, KG, Pippen, and very few others if any. Bird was up there on the regular, post-season as well.
Coincidence I guess :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:

Bird's also the leader in combined DWS from 1980-1985... I don't think there's another forward who leads for 5 combined years.

Larry's defensive impact is underrated. He made teams much better also due to it.
He won many games also becse of D, like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI

Boston was considerably better on the defensive end with Bird, just him roaming around was big for them, he had very good defensive impact, even made 3x all-defensive teams in an era where being a superstar didn't get you there and with some great defensive players getting that forward spot.

Dude had terrific (defensive) IQ, anticipated most plays, played the passing lanes extremely well, ocasionally with some weak-side blocks too, knew how to create TO's, had two of the quickest hands ever, knew exactly when to double-team, great at drawing charges, put his body on the line and used his strength to protect the rim, barely got lost on rotations, solid defensive footwork, pretty good post m2m defender, held his own on the perimeter before injuries took over, great defensive rebounder too...
Very clutch on that end as well, remember the steal vs Detroit at least?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U

And also, there are defensive "areas" in which Bird ws better than LeBron, like...

Larry was a better post m2m defender -

Guarding Hakeem on a switch and blocking his shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m54s

Holding his ground against 250 lbs Laimbeer, blocking him too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U&t=6m12s

Preventing Worthy's patented spin-and drive, making him miss the shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m10s

Defending 7'2 Sampson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jULQiRy6Qg

...

Larry was also a better team defender-

Stopping a 2on1 fastbreak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=2m45s

Double-teaming Hakeem, stripping him before the Dream Shake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=1m19s

Making Jordan miss on the break:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m49s

Blocking Person's drive then talking trash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=1m54s

Taking the rock from Kareem in the post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m32s

Stealing the ball on the full-court press leading to FT's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=5m44s

Great rotation to protect the paint, on a couple of posessions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=5m55s

Playing the passing lane then with the easy bucket:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=10m2s

Sneaking up on MJ for the steal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=2m1s

Putting his body on the line, winning the charge against massive, weight-room freak Mychal Thompson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI&t=11m59s

Help-D blocking King's shot, then getting the board:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6oIC8BZ7_0

...

Bird's a better DEFENSIVE rebounder too, if you count that...

[ShawkFactory]

LeBron's CLEARLY a better defensive player than Bird but the gap isn't what you'd call BIG...

With that said, Bron is better mostly due to athleticism; for example Larry didn't have the lateral quickness to shut down guys on the perimeter or something.
Still, LB did a whole lot with what he had, he was even "forced" to play more as a SF (wouldn't "happen" nearly as much today) when he was more of a beastly all-around stretch 4.

Celtics were bottom3 in DRtg in 1979, then in 1980 with Bird, coach Fitch and basically the same core roster they jumped to top5... Larry being 1st in DWS and 6th in DRtg.
No McHale, Parish or DJ yet, for the matter.

Larry was 4x league leader in DWS, 7x top5; and once 2nd in DRtg, 6x top10...
Other forwards across history who did something similar, at least once? Duncan, Rodman, KG, Pippen, and very few others if any. Bird was up there on the regular, post-season as well.
Coincidence I guess :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:

Bird's also the leader in combined DWS from 1980-1985... I don't think there's another forward who leads for 5 combined years.

Larry's defensive impact is underrated. He made teams much better also due to it.
He won many games also becse of D, like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI

Boston was considerably better on the defensive end with Bird, just him roaming around was big for them, he had very good defensive impact, even made 3x all-defensive teams in an era where being a superstar didn't get you there and with some great defensive players getting that forward spot.

Dude had terrific (defensive) IQ, anticipated most plays, played the passing lanes extremely well, ocasionally with some weak-side blocks too, knew how to create TO's, had two of the quickest hands ever, knew exactly when to double-team, great at drawing charges, put his body on the line and used his strength to protect the rim, barely got lost on rotations, solid defensive footwork, pretty good post m2m defender, held his own on the perimeter before injuries took over, great defensive rebounder too...
Very clutch on that end as well, remember the steal vs Detroit at least?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U

And also, there are defensive "areas" in which Bird ws better than LeBron, like...

Larry was a better post m2m defender -

Guarding Hakeem on a switch and blocking his shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m54s

Holding his ground against 250 lbs Laimbeer, blocking him too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U&t=6m12s

Preventing Worthy's patented spin-and drive, making him miss the shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m10s

Defending 7'2 Sampson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jULQiRy6Qg

...

Larry was also a better team defender-

Stopping a 2on1 fastbreak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=2m45s

Double-teaming Hakeem, stripping him before the Dream Shake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=1m19s

Making Jordan miss on the break:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m49s

Blocking Person's drive then talking trash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=1m54s

Taking the rock from Kareem in the post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m32s

Stealing the ball on the full-court pass leading to FT's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=5m44s

Great rotation to protect the paint, on a couple of posessions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=5m55s

Playing the passing lane then with the easy bucket:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=10m2s

Sneaking up on MJ for the steal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=2m1s

Putting his body on the line, winning the charge against massive, weight-room freak Mychal Thompson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=11m59s

Help-D blocking King's shot, then getting the board:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6oIC8BZ7_0

...

:bowdown:

You da real MVP of this shit.

[Trollsmasher]

:bowdown:

You da real MVP of this shit.
Dude just used DWS in an attempt to prove his point. I am glad he put it at the top so I did not have to read a wall of text from someone with subzero basketball knowledge

[ShawkFactory]

Dude just used DWS in an attempt to prove his point. I am glad he put it at the top so I did not have to read a wall of text from someone with subzero basketball knowledge
He also used several hundred other words, mixed with videos, mixed with actual knowledge on the player. Unlike most people on this board he actually backs up his arguments.

And IDK why you're so concerned. His first sentence stated that Lebron was the better defensive player.

[Solefade]

LeBron's black so i pick LeBron.


it's NIGHT (LeBron) and DAY (Bird) :oldlol:

[SHAQisGOAT]

note : i saw bird play live, and even though I am a magic stan I greatly respect bird's game. but comparing him with lebron defensively is a joke.

Bird defended with parish and mchale covering his ass, and he always stayed hidden away from the 1st offensive options (jordan, magic, nique, erving, etc). He defended in an era where handchecking and roughing up people was allowed, which greatly negated his lack of athletic ability and his pedestrian lateral quickness. He was very smart and a good team defender, with great fundamentals, but he was never talked about for his defense. He never dominated games defensively. He was not versatile, you could not use him as a rim protector or to guard a pg. He knew how to use his body to get defensive rebounds very well, he had fast hands and a great sense of anticipation. But you couldn't hope to put him to guard durant/kobe/lebron man to man. Without mchale and parish covering the lane he would have been more exposed.

lebron started being a very good defender in early 2007, and for the 2009-2012 stretch he was a legitimate DPOY candidate, in a league with howard, hibbert, marc gasol, noah, tony allen and the like. lebron is also a much more versatile defender, he can guard 1-4 effectively which only a handful of players could in the history of the game (pippen, matrix, rodman, etc) . The only dominant defensive big he ever had was the corpse of ben wallace, and that only for a couple of seasons. So he didn't get to gamble and he didn't have a safety net behind him. And he got some of the most ridiculous assignments like guarding kobe/durant/melo/wade(as a cav)/pierce/george/b. roy/etc. He also was the best defender for his team in 2005-2013.

Trolls might tell you that lebron had great defenseive teams. The cavs were considered a great defensive team by points allowed per game, which is flawed, because the cavs where always among the teams with the slowest pace in the game. And we all know just how vital lebron's defense was for the heat. So he really carried a heavy load defensively, he didn't get easy games.

Trolls might also say that bird had more blocks or steals, but is tony allen a leader in blocks or steals? was rodman? or how about shawn marion? Real defense is seen in under performing opponents.


the difference between bird and lebron is truly large on the defensive end. tbh, just imagine lebron without handchecking and allowed to be more physical ... just ridiculous :lol

Note: Everything you've just wrote makes it clear that that 1st quote is a straight up lie...

Covering his ass? :facepalm When Boston went from bottom3 to top5 in DRtg, in Bird's 1st year, with basically the same roster and coach Fitch, with Larry being #1 in DWS and 6th in DRtg... Where were they to "cover his ass"? :rolleyes:

Why does Bird's decline in athleticism/defense, mostly due to serious injuries, coincides with them getting considerably worse on defense?
Why were they much better on D with Bird on the court as opposed to the other way around?

Not saying McHale (even Parish) wasn't a great defensive player but get real.

Bird wsn't even big on handchecking ("real" one also banned before) but whatever...

Hidden from 1st options?
First of all, he was much more impactful for them by roaming around and everyone soon realized that. He didn't have the type of lateral quickness to be a big defensive option vs great scoring wings but he had very good defensive impct in other different ways.
Secondly, he was their main offensive weapon and needed to be spared more, you even see that for all-time great defenders like MJ.
Plus, he was always more of a beastly all-around stretch 4, who could play SF just as well but still body/athleticism more of a PF... tell me how many of those you see guarding dudes like Jordan? You didn't see a dude like KG (not comparing him to Bird, just an example) guarding someone like Jordan, doesn't mean the defensive impact isn't there in some other ways.
And Bird more than held his own plenty of times on the perimeter against great scoring SF's like Erving, Dantley, King, Wilkins, etc, mostly/especially in his younger years, not to mention PF's.

Never talked about for his defense? :oldlol: You CLEARLY have no idea what you're saying.

Never dominated games with defense? C's won this game mostly due to his defense, just an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI
How about the clutch steal vs Detroit or Philly? Games in which he had many defensive boards, lots of steals, some blocks, great advanced defensive numbers?

No, the difference is not big on the defensive end between them, better go get your facts straight if you think so...

Oh, and let me get this right... Bird had more "advantages" on D due to being a more physical era, with handchecking and all? So that makes it much easier for Bron on offense nowadays, Larry just being much better on O adding also that notion... Guess now you agree to that :lol

[riseagainst]

LeBron's CLEARLY a better defensive player than Bird but the gap isn't what you'd call BIG...

With that said, Bron is better mostly due to athleticism; for example Larry didn't have the lateral quickness to shut down guys on the perimeter or something.
Still, LB did a whole lot with what he had, he was even "forced" to play more as a SF (wouldn't "happen" nearly as much today) when he was more of a beastly all-around stretch 4.

Celtics were bottom3 in DRtg in 1979, then in 1980 with Bird, coach Fitch and basically the same core roster they jumped to top5... Larry being 1st in DWS and 6th in DRtg.
No McHale, Parish or DJ yet, for the matter.

Larry was 4x league leader in DWS, 7x top5; and once 2nd in DRtg, 6x top10...
Other forwards across history who did something similar, at least once? Duncan, Rodman, KG, Pippen, and very few others if any. Bird was up there on the regular, post-season as well.
Coincidence I guess :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:

Bird's also the leader in combined DWS from 1980-1985... I don't think there's another forward who leads for 5 combined years.

Larry's defensive impact is underrated. He made teams much better also due to it.
He won many games also becse of D, like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI

Boston was considerably better on the defensive end with Bird, just him roaming around was big for them, he had very good defensive impact, even made 3x all-defensive teams in an era where being a superstar didn't get you there and with some great defensive players getting that forward spot.

Dude had terrific (defensive) IQ, anticipated most plays, played the passing lanes extremely well, ocasionally with some weak-side blocks too, knew how to create TO's, had two of the quickest hands ever, knew exactly when to double-team, great at drawing charges, put his body on the line and used his strength to protect the rim, barely got lost on rotations, solid defensive footwork, pretty good post m2m defender, held his own on the perimeter before injuries took over, great defensive rebounder too...
Very clutch on that end as well, remember the steal vs Detroit at least?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U

And also, there are defensive "areas" in which Bird ws better than LeBron, like...

Larry was a better post m2m defender -

Guarding Hakeem on a switch and blocking his shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m54s

Holding his ground against 250 lbs Laimbeer, blocking him too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U&t=6m12s

Preventing Worthy's patented spin-and drive, making him miss the shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m10s

Defending 7'2 Sampson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jULQiRy6Qg

...

Larry was also a better team defender-

Stopping a 2on1 fastbreak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=2m45s

Double-teaming Hakeem, stripping him before the Dream Shake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=1m19s

Making Jordan miss on the break:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m49s

Blocking Person's drive then talking trash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=1m54s

Taking the rock from Kareem in the post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m32s

Stealing the ball on the full-court pass leading to FT's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=5m44s

Great rotation to protect the paint, on a couple of posessions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=5m55s

Playing the passing lane then with the easy bucket:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=10m2s

Sneaking up on MJ for the steal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=2m1s

Putting his body on the line, winning the charge against massive, weight-room freak Mychal Thompson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=11m59s

Help-D blocking King's shot, then getting the board:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6oIC8BZ7_0

...



:applause:

[bizil]

LeBron's CLEARLY a better defensive player than Bird but the gap isn't what you'd call BIG...

With that said, Bron is better mostly due to athleticism; for example Larry didn't have the lateral quickness to shut down guys on the perimeter or something.
Still, LB did a whole lot with what he had, he was even "forced" to play more as a SF (wouldn't "happen" nearly as much today) when he was more of a beastly all-around stretch 4.

Celtics were bottom3 in DRtg in 1979, then in 1980 with Bird, coach Fitch and basically the same core roster they jumped to top5... Larry being 1st in DWS and 6th in DRtg.
No McHale, Parish or DJ yet, for the matter.

Larry was 4x league leader in DWS, 7x top5; and once 2nd in DRtg, 6x top10...
Other forwards across history who did something similar, at least once? Duncan, Rodman, KG, Pippen, and very few others if any. Bird was up there on the regular, post-season as well.
Coincidence I guess :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:

Bird's also the leader in combined DWS from 1980-1985... I don't think there's another forward who leads for 5 combined years.

Larry's defensive impact is underrated. He made teams much better also due to it.
He won many games also becse of D, like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI

Boston was considerably better on the defensive end with Bird, just him roaming around was big for them, he had very good defensive impact, even made 3x all-defensive teams in an era where being a superstar didn't get you there and with some great defensive players getting that forward spot.

Dude had terrific (defensive) IQ, anticipated most plays, played the passing lanes extremely well, ocasionally with some weak-side blocks too, knew how to create TO's, had two of the quickest hands ever, knew exactly when to double-team, great at drawing charges, put his body on the line and used his strength to protect the rim, barely got lost on rotations, solid defensive footwork, pretty good post m2m defender, held his own on the perimeter before injuries took over, great defensive rebounder too...
Very clutch on that end as well, remember the steal vs Detroit at least?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U

And also, there are defensive "areas" in which Bird ws better than LeBron, like...

Larry was a better post m2m defender -

Guarding Hakeem on a switch and blocking his shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m54s

Holding his ground against 250 lbs Laimbeer, blocking him too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U&t=6m12s

Preventing Worthy's patented spin-and drive, making him miss the shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m10s

Defending 7'2 Sampson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jULQiRy6Qg

...

Larry was also a better team defender-

Stopping a 2on1 fastbreak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=2m45s

Double-teaming Hakeem, stripping him before the Dream Shake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=1m19s

Making Jordan miss on the break:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m49s

Blocking Person's drive then talking trash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=1m54s

Taking the rock from Kareem in the post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m32s

Stealing the ball on the full-court press leading to FT's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=5m44s

Great rotation to protect the paint, on a couple of posessions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=5m55s

Playing the passing lane then with the easy bucket:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=10m2s

Sneaking up on MJ for the steal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=2m1s

Putting his body on the line, winning the charge against massive, weight-room freak Mychal Thompson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI&t=11m59s

Help-D blocking King's shot, then getting the board:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6oIC8BZ7_0

...

Bird's a better DEFENSIVE rebounder too, if you count that...



Great post! Bron is the superior defender because of his versatility and athletic ability. However, If Bird played the majority of his career at PF, I think he would have been seen as a great defender FLAT OUT! Bird was quicker than most PF's, just as tall as most of them, and very gritty. U couple that with his epic IQ, its why he made those All Defensive Teams.

It wasn't until Bird was winding or retired that u had more of the bigger 6'10 and up PF's like Kemp, Coleman, Duncan, KG, Sheed, Amare, Pau, Dirk, etc. that might have given Bird more trouble.

His main weakness as u stated was guarding SF's out on the perimeter. In the post, he was fine because he was the biggest SF in the league at the time. Guarding guys like Doc, Nique, King, English, etc. was a hard task FOR ANY SF! Also keep in mind that great SG's Jordan, Gervin, and Drexler would swing to SF to in the 80's as well.

[GimmeThat]

So Bird would have flopped in the modern era without handchecking in order to get his DWS?

[warriorfan]

Not very big. Bran only had 2-3 years where he was an elite defender anyway. Bird was a very good defender, while not top 5 or anything. Lebron might've been one of the five best defenders for 2 years, if that. Maybe just 2011.

Agreed


LeBron started becoming a good defender around 2008, peaked in 2009 as a top 10 defender, then has slowly declined year by year with his waning athleticism.

LeBron is the better defender than Bird but the gap is very close. LeBron gets overrated as some DPOY because he has some highlights of him chasing down and posterizing fast breaks from behind.

[20Four]

I've watched Bird's entire career and I can tell you that he's one of the more overrated players of all time precisely because of his poor defense. In today's game he would be the 3rd best SF after LeBron and Durant yet in the 80s he was the clear cut best SF, so today's era is more difficult.

LeBron is a far, far, far superior defensive player to Bird. It's not even close. The only wing defender ever comparable to LeBron is Pippen, and I'd rank them 1 and 2 in that order.

LeBron is a top 3 all time defensive player along with Pippen and Duncan. I would put Jordan and Garnett in the top 5 right behind both as well.

The gap between LeBron and Bird's defense is like the gap between Magic Johnson and Rajon Rondo's offense. It is not even close.
http://fat.gfycat.com/DismalGrandioseKomododragon.gif

[DatAsh]

Not really. He was a below average defender to average defender his first few years, then he developed into a good defender, and then into a great for a little bit. To call him an all time great defender is ludicrous though. The impact nor the effort has been there throughout his career for that nonsense.

I guess it depends on how you want to define all time great. If you're talking top 10 perimeter guys, then no, I wouldn't call him that, but that's a pretty rough criteria.

He lacks the consistency to really be compared to someone like Pippen or Jordan, but at his peak he was damn good. 11' to 13' Lebron is probably 95% the defender that 88' to 93' Jordan was, and maybe 90% the defender that 94' to 95' Pippen was.

Just like those guys, he was a legitimate DPOY candidate in his best years.

To me, that classifies as an all time great.


As for Lebron vs Bird: Bird's defense is super underrated, and I highly doubt any of the people claiming to have seen Bird live so far actually did so.

Peak for Peak? Lebron - A, Larry - B
Average? Lebron - B, Larry - C+

wher C is average.

[DatAsh]

LeBron's CLEARLY a better defensive player than Bird but the gap isn't what you'd call BIG...

With that said, Bron is better mostly due to athleticism; for example Larry didn't have the lateral quickness to shut down guys on the perimeter or something.
Still, LB did a whole lot with what he had, he was even "forced" to play more as a SF (wouldn't "happen" nearly as much today) when he was more of a beastly all-around stretch 4.

Celtics were bottom3 in DRtg in 1979, then in 1980 with Bird, coach Fitch and basically the same core roster they jumped to top5... Larry being 1st in DWS and 6th in DRtg.
No McHale, Parish or DJ yet, for the matter.

Larry was 4x league leader in DWS, 7x top5; and once 2nd in DRtg, 6x top10...
Other forwards across history who did something similar, at least once? Duncan, Rodman, KG, Pippen, and very few others if any. Bird was up there on the regular, post-season as well.
Coincidence I guess :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:

Bird's also the leader in combined DWS from 1980-1985... I don't think there's another forward who leads for 5 combined years.

Larry's defensive impact is underrated. He made teams much better also due to it.
He won many games also becse of D, like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI

Boston was considerably better on the defensive end with Bird, just him roaming around was big for them, he had very good defensive impact, even made 3x all-defensive teams in an era where being a superstar didn't get you there and with some great defensive players getting that forward spot.

Dude had terrific (defensive) IQ, anticipated most plays, played the passing lanes extremely well, ocasionally with some weak-side blocks too, knew how to create TO's, had two of the quickest hands ever, knew exactly when to double-team, great at drawing charges, put his body on the line and used his strength to protect the rim, barely got lost on rotations, solid defensive footwork, pretty good post m2m defender, held his own on the perimeter before injuries took over, great defensive rebounder too...
Very clutch on that end as well, remember the steal vs Detroit at least?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U

And also, there are defensive "areas" in which Bird ws better than LeBron, like...

Larry was a better post m2m defender -

Guarding Hakeem on a switch and blocking his shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m54s

Holding his ground against 250 lbs Laimbeer, blocking him too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U&t=6m12s

Preventing Worthy's patented spin-and drive, making him miss the shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m10s

Defending 7'2 Sampson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jULQiRy6Qg

...

Larry was also a better team defender-

Stopping a 2on1 fastbreak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=2m45s

Double-teaming Hakeem, stripping him before the Dream Shake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=1m19s

Making Jordan miss on the break:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m49s

Blocking Person's drive then talking trash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=1m54s

Taking the rock from Kareem in the post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=3m32s

Stealing the ball on the full-court press leading to FT's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=5m44s

Great rotation to protect the paint, on a couple of posessions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=5m55s

Playing the passing lane then with the easy bucket:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=10m2s

Sneaking up on MJ for the steal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&t=2m1s

Putting his body on the line, winning the charge against massive, weight-room freak Mychal Thompson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI&t=11m59s

Help-D blocking King's shot, then getting the board:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6oIC8BZ7_0

...

Bird's a better DEFENSIVE rebounder too, if you count that...


Great post

[DMAVS41]

Not really. He was a below average defender to average defender his first few years, then he developed into a good defender, and then into a great for a little bit. To call him an all time great defender is ludicrous though. The impact nor the effort has been there throughout his career for that nonsense.

This post is exactly why he's under-rated.

And it depends on semantics before I know what you mean...because there are only a handful or so small forward defenders more impactful than Lebron in my opinion in NBA history.

To me that is all time great. Might not be to you though...

[swagga]

Note: Everything you've just wrote makes it clear that that 1st quote is a straight up lie...

right :rolleyes:



Covering his ass? :facepalm When Boston went from bottom3 to top5 in DRtg, in Bird's 1st year, with basically the same roster and coach Fitch, with Larry being #1 in DWS and 6th in DRtg... Where were they to "cover his ass"? :rolleyes:


how is this dws computed? is it like per? what kind of regression does it use if any? on what kind of stats can you approximate defense? is it based on underperforming opposing player/teams or on raw stats? does it take pace into account? /sarcasm

what I am pointing out is that it's much easier to play defense when you got a shotblocker behind you.

also it's pretty convenient to not add that the celtics also had a new coach and that their previous season was a trainwreck with an undefined roster, tons of trades and a change of coaches making it a not quite ideal place to implement a defensive system.... :rolleyes:



Why does Bird's decline in athleticism/defense, mostly due to serious injuries, coincides with them getting considerably worse on defense?
Why were they much better on D with Bird on the court as opposed to the other way around?


how about mchale and parish playing 25% less time? mchale from 3060 mins in 87 to 2320 in 88. and parish from 2995 in 87 to 2312 in 88?
because the entire team was aging... because the many deep playoff runs were taking their toll.



Not saying McHale (even Parish) wasn't a great defensive player but get real.
Bird wsn't even big on handchecking ("real" one also banned before) but whatever...

handchecking is handchecking.The era was also much more physical than today, helping lesser skilled defenders. should be pretty obvious that there is no discussion to be had here.



Hidden from 1st options?
First of all, he was much more impactful for them by roaming around and everyone soon realized that. He didn't have the type of lateral quickness to be a big defensive option vs great scoring wings but he had very good defensive impct in other different ways.
Secondly, he was their main offensive weapon and needed to be spared more, you even see that for all-time great defenders like MJ.

so he was indeed not that used to guard the real scoring threats because his skillset was quite limited. excellent post defender, fast hands, a good defender overall. But not a lockdown, dpoy level defender like lebron, which is the comparison in this thread..
Doesn't lebron as a single offensive weapon (compared to the wealth of options on those celtics teams) need some rest too? ... bird was freelancing because that's all you could really do with bird against a great wing, you hide him.... you are proving my point here. Or when he went against a great slasher you helped him with mchale/parish to cover the lane.




Plus, he was always more of a beastly all-around stretch 4, who could play SF just as well but still body/athleticism more of a PF... tell me how many of those you see guarding dudes like Jordan? You didn't see a dude like KG (not comparing him to Bird, just an example) guarding someone like Jordan, doesn't mean the defensive impact isn't there in some other ways.
And Bird more than held his own plenty of times on the perimeter against great scoring SF's like Erving, Dantley, King, Wilkins, etc, mostly/especially in his younger years, not to mention PF's.


held his own by playing freelancing? maybe having a big shotblocker behind him against all these slashers helped him a little? and when the 2 big shotblockers decrease in minutes the whole drtg goes to shit.

i do agree bird was a very good post defender. Don't want to take anything from him. But we are comparing him to lebron so perimeter defense is considered and versatility is considered. Bird never was a great perimeter defender. Stop fooling yourself.



Never talked about for his defense? :oldlol: You CLEARLY have no idea what you're saying.
Never dominated games with defense? C's won this game mostly due to his defense, just an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI
How about the clutch steal vs Detroit or Philly? Games in which he had many defensive boards, lots of steals, some blocks, great advanced defensive numbers?


C's won their games do to their huge size and talent. Certainly not due to bird's defense. A clutch steal doesn't make you a defender comparable to lebron. I am not saying he was a bad defender, just nowhere near lebron.
You are out of arguments (you didn't provide anything tbh) and now you go to the good old "let's put a video from youtube". Put a game where he locks down a big time scorer at least.



No, the difference is not big on the defensive end between them, better go get your facts straight if you think so...

no, you didn't provide shit, just your opinion wrapped around a fairy tale. The big argument with the drtg drop has alot more to do with the real defensive presences playing less.



Oh, and let me get this right... Bird had more "advantages" on D due to being a more physical era, with handchecking and all? So that makes it much easier for Bron on offense nowadays, Larry just being much better on O adding also that notion... Guess now you agree to that :lol

you just said that bird was protected on the defensive side to conserve his energy, while we both know lebron always had the hardest possible assignment. So this argument of offense is asinine. it also doesn't take into account that playing with other legitimate championship level pieces makes life easier. Look at lebron offensive efficiency in 12 and 13.

so not only you don't have arguments but you now talk about offense in a defense thread? :facepalm with a flawed argument too, surprise surprise :oldlol:

you must think you are so all knowing :roll: . you are comically wrong.

[Eric Cartman]

Bird was better than Lebron defensively, don't be fooled because of the color of his skin.

[KevinNYC]

He was very smart and a good team defender, with great fundamentals, but he was never talked about for his defense. He never dominated games defensively.

Here's Hubie Brown (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6193760&postcount=36)talking about Bird being the key to the Celtics defense.

I can also think of at least two playoffs games Bird won with last second steals. The famous steal of the inbounds play against Isiah Thomas and Detroit and the steal against Andrew Toney in 1981 ECF.

Bird's greatest asset as a defender was his ungodly sense of how a play was going to develop. When to jump in front of a guy, where the rebound was going, when the pass was going to be made. His anticipation is just ridiculous. I was watching a clip the other day of game 1 of the 1986 playoffs vs the Bulls. Michael Jordan has the ball goes around a pick, Bird jumps off his man and meets Jordan where's he about to dribble and swipes it.


If you look at that 1987 steal against the Pistons, I'm not sure how many other players in NBA history make that play. No timeouts. Bird drives, gets triple teamed and Rodman blocks his shot out of bounds, but off the Celtics, Jerry Sichting goes into the stands to after it. Pistons ball and the ref gives Isiah the ball before Sichting is even back on the court. It's chaos, the Celtics are not set up to defend. When you look at the replay you see both Dennis Johnson and McHale have no idea where to be. It's just happening too quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1_WNtucO84&t=6625

Bird somehow makes the play. He starts covering one guy at the foul line and the jumps down to the baseline to make the steal.

[KevinNYC]

Bird defended with parish and mchale covering his ass, and he always stayed hidden away from the 1st offensive options (jordan, magic, nique, erving, etc). ....Without mchale and parish covering the lane he would have been more exposed.

For the 1979 Celtics the guys who got the most total minutes were

Cedric Maxwell
Chris Ford
Dave Cowens
Tiny Archibald
and a small forward called Jeff Judkins

The defensive rating of that team was 106.4 which was 19th out of 22 in the league.

For the 1980 Celtics the guys who got the most total minutes were
Cedric Maxwell
Chris Ford
Dave Cowens
Tiny Archibald
and a small forward called Larry Bird

The defensive rating of that team was 101.9 which was 4th in the league. In terms of opponents points scored they went from 19th to 6th.

Neither Parish or McHale were on the Celtics, but the league leader in Defensive Win Shares was, Larry Bird. Bird may have played a different style of defense, but he was always a great team defender even prior to Parish and McHale arriving.

It would be interesting to see how Bird would have defended against three pointers which he would have to do more and more of in today's game.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Here's Hubie Brown (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6193760&postcount=36)talking about Bird being the key to the Celtics defense.

I can also think of at least two playoffs games Bird won with last second steals. The famous steal of the inbounds play against Isiah Thomas and Detroit and the steal against Andrew Toney in 1981 ECF.

Bird's greatest asset as a defender was his ungodly sense of how a play was going to develop. When to jump in front of a guy, where the rebound was going, when the pass was going to be made. His anticipation is just ridiculous. I was watching a clip the other day of game 1 of the 1986 playoffs vs the Bulls. Michael Jordan has the ball goes around a pick, Bird jumps off his man and meets Jordan where's he about to dribble and swipes it.


If you look at that 1987 steal against the Pistons, I'm not sure how many other players in NBA history make that play. No timeouts. Bird drives, gets triple teamed and Rodman blocks his shot out of bounds, but off the Celtics, Jerry Sichting goes into the stands to after it. Pistons ball and the ref gives Isiah the ball before Sichting is even back on the court. It's chaos, the Celtics are not set up to defend. When you look at the replay you see both Dennis Johnson and McHale have no idea where to be. It's just happening too quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1_WNtucO84&t=6625

Bird somehow makes the play. He starts covering one guy at the foul line and the jumps down to the baseline to make the steal.

For the 1979 Celtics the guys who got the most total minutes were

Cedric Maxwell
Chris Ford
Dave Cowens
Tiny Archibald
and a small forward called Jeff Judkins

The defensive rating of that team was 106.4 which was 19th out of 22 in the league.

For the 1980 Celtics the guys who got the most total minutes were
Cedric Maxwell
Chris Ford
Dave Cowens
Tiny Archibald
and a small forward called Larry Bird

The defensive rating of that team was 101.9 which was 4th in the league. In terms of opponents points scored they went from 19th to 6th.

Neither Parish or McHale were on the Celtics, but the league leader in Defensive Win Shares was, Larry Bird. Bird may have played a different style of defense, but he was always a great team defender even prior to Parish and McHale arriving.

It would be interesting to see how Bird would have defended against three pointers which he would have to do more and more of in today's game.

:applause:

Early 80's Bird is one of the grittiest moth****ers you'll ever see on a basketball court... Not quite as polished as he'd later become, not as great of a scorer, not as good of a post-game, shooting more deep 2's instead of 3's or posting up, overall IQ and playmaking not yet FULLY developed... But he was hustling like never again, physical af, rebounding extremely well, killing his body out there without care, blood, sweat and tears, great team D as always, roughing up and putting pressure on his man too, his athleticism would very much surprise people who only saw him later on...

23/11/5/5/3 in game7 of the 1981 ECF, just EVERYWHERE, game physical as hell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEMbEanJdXc

Putting it on the line, bodying Darryl ****in Dawkins to prevent the dunk... Yea, that massive athletic freak, full of muscle, rim wrecker...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjwqGwQEDbs&t=9m30s

No ****s given all out hustle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX8ipponmSc&t=6m19s

18/21/9 in game1 of one of the most physical series you'll ever see, toe-to-toe on the boards with prime Moses:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDk9y0Vul5A

Tackling Bernard to the ground:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX8ipponmSc&t=3m37s

On the perimeter, steal then the slam, vs a 6'5 athletic SG/SF:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL71xgjs4I0&t=1m50s

Chasedown block on King, then doing everything else:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6oIC8BZ7_0

This is a very long video but you'll see him play great m2m on prime Dr J, grbbing 21 rebounds too... Erving had a big game but he was getting none m2m vs Larry, however was killing Carr (getting most of his points against him), also Maxwell and murdering them on the break:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjwqGwQEDbs

[ArbitraryWater]

Bird was better than Lebron defensively, don't be fooled because of the color of his skin.

The bad thing is this guy is not even trolling

[poido123]

Lebron is clearly a better defender.


I still regard Bird as the better SF All time though. It's pretty close.

[ImKobe]

Bird is a better defender from an IQ standpoint.

[Lebron23]

Only 1 correct Answer. It's LeBron James.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEs7bZzprWU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SjzMz4ZdFI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV3O94yv4vc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWzduqhEXYg

[iamgine]

When Boston went from bottom3 to top5 in DRtg, in Bird's 1st year, with basically the same roster and coach Fitch, with Larry being #1 in DWS and 6th in DRtg... Where were they to "cover his ass"?


Not to diminish Bird but I think the coaching change was mostly responsible for that. In the season before Bird's arrival, Boston changed from a very inexperienced young coach in Tom Sanders (who never coach again) to a much worse 30 years old Dave Cowens as player-coach. And then the next season they finally has a somewhat experienced coach in Bill Fitch.

Although Bill Fitch was nothing too special in the coaching world, he was million times better than Cowens or Sanders.

[LeBird]

Although Bill Fitch was nothing too special in the coaching world, he was million times better than Cowens or Sanders.

He wasn't a 'turn 29 wins to 61 wins' better. The main reason, easily, that team turned around was Bird.

Some great posts by SHAQ and Kevin.

[ShawkFactory]

Bird is a better defender from an IQ standpoint.
Saying something nice about Bron just too hard for you?

[colts19]

Also, speaking of LeBron/Bird.. my All-Time list has LeBron, Kobe, Shaq & Duncan over Magic and Bird. People need to let the past-time be the past-time.

Said players are unequivocally better overall than Magic/Bird.

You do have the right to be unequivocally wrong.

[cltcfn2924]

Agreed. Although in his best years his overall impact was matched by few. Perimeter-wise at least.

Perimeter wise? He can't guard a fire hydrant. You Lequit stans are unbelievable. All you see is him cheating lanes at the perimeter, stop with the "great", or all time nonsense. Leonard dumped all over him, what do you think Bird would have done?

[Rose'sACL]

the difference is pretty big. only on this forum would people say otherwise.

[Milbuck]

the difference is pretty big. only on this forum would people say otherwise.
I'm trying not to disrespect Bird here, I know I have in the past, but in this instance I can't believe some of the responses.

I know Bird is historically an underrated defender, but I don't think it's close at all. I hate on Lebron a lot but the dude is seriously one of the best defenders I've seen at his best in Miami. He's not as consistent as you'd like, he hasn't sustained that level for super long, but peak-wise...shit.

[Rose'sACL]

I'm trying not to disrespect Bird here, I know I have in the past, but in this instance I can't believe some of the responses.

I know Bird is historically an underrated defender, but I don't think it's close at all. I hate on Lebron a lot but the dude is seriously one of the best defenders I've seen at his best in Miami. He's not as consistent as you'd like, he hasn't sustained that level for super long, but peak-wise...shit.
he has always been consistent in playoffs. i really believe Spo made both wade and lebron try too hard on defense because they had to be so fast on defense to cover up heat's lack of interior defense.

put bird on those heat teams without a rim protector and you'd see how bad they would have been. when you are big offensive weapon like wade and lebron, heat's defensive scheme was very taxing on their body. wade gave up and kept going for steals from 2013 playoffs. lebron gave up in 2013-14 regular season and was inconsistent(tried too hard for steals) but was good in 2014 playoffs. i like lebron right now though since cavs got mozgov. he doesn't try to do it all by himself. he plays intelligent defense now but funneling the player he is guarding towards mozgov.

[plowking]

I'll comment, as someone that likes Bird, and not in the way pauk does in the sense of pretending to like a player and then prop up Bron. :oldlol:

Bird was a decent defender, but limited. Obviously length and athleticism plays a large part of defense and in terms of that Bird was lacking. Good post defender against other PF's, and he was actually good at roaming around and playing the passing lanes. I actually think he would have done well with Bron and Wade playing in that Miami system and getting out on the break. He was a better defender than Magic who people like to prop up due to getting 3spg some seasons.

Bron on the other hand doesn't really have any limitations. The only players I saw him struggle against in terms of defending one on one was SF's with a quick first step. He actually struggled defending Paul George more earlier in his career when his handle wasn't there, because he'd use his first step to get by Bron. Then he developed his handle and started over-dribbling. Bron does great against that since he is smart enough to know how to position himself. It is exactly why he does and did so great against Parker and Rose. They both over-dribble, like most PG's now.
It is also why he doesn't play Leonard well to this day. Dude uses that first step brilliantly, and I think Pop is one of the few coaches who tells him to make quick moves against Bron.
He was always brilliant against PF's as well. He shut down David West a few times when he was burning Bosh. As soon as Bron switched onto him, he was out of the game.
1-4 Bron probably defended his own position, the 3, the worst.

[Poochymama]

I'll comment, as someone that likes Bird, and not in the way pauk does in the sense of pretending to like a player and then prop up Bron. :oldlol:


:coleman:

Reggie Miller is Pauk's favorite player :rolleyes:

[BIZARRO]

Love Bron but...
I basically saw Bird's whole career (started being a Celts fan in '81) and would actually take Bird over Bron on the defensive end. Bron's ceiling is higher due to his athleticism.
However, Bird hustled WAY more, is THE most underrated team defender ever IMO, and had a much higher IQ on the defensive end. Was also a superior defensive rebounder.
Bird was everywhere on D with an incredibly uncanny knack for knowing how to stop the ball an disrupt through effort, deception, intimidation, and timing.
Don't care what some of y'all who never saw Bird in his prime think, as I saw him. Much more intense game back then, And every play he played seemed like it was like his last. I'll take that kind of defender every time.

[Rose'sACL]

Love Bron but...
I basically saw Bird's whole career (started being a Celts fan in '81) and would actually take Bird over Bron on the defensive end. Bron's ceiling is higher due to his athleticism.
However, Bird hustled WAY more, is THE most underrated team defender ever IMO, and had a much higher IQ on the defensive end. Was also a superior defensive rebounder.
Bird was everywhere on D with an incredibly uncanny knack for knowing how to stop the ball an disrupt through effort, deception, intimidation, and timing.
Don't care what some of y'all who never saw Bird in his prime think, as I saw him. Much more intense game back then, And every play he played seemed like it was like his last. I'll take that kind of defender every time.
ya, because it is not like everyone now can't see bird as much as you or even more.
it is so much easy to download the games if they are not available on youtube. almost all good celtics games are available.

[iamgine]

He wasn't a 'turn 29 wins to 61 wins' better. The main reason, easily, that team turned around was Bird.

Some great posts by SHAQ and Kevin.
We talking about the massive increase in defense, not wins. The thing most responsible for that was the coaching change. If we're talking wins then who would deny Bird was most responsible.

[dubeta]

As big as the gap between Wilt's Finals and Regular season PPG average

[Lebron23]

As big as the gap between Wilt's Finals and Regular season PPG average


http://d3trabu2dfbdfb.cloudfront.net/3/8/380390_300x300.jpeg

[Poochymama]

As big as the gap between Wilt's Finals and Regular season PPG average

Lol 30ppg to 18ppg. Why do people have Wilt as a top 5 player?

Yes he's probably a top 3(arguably goat) regular season player, but post season matters way more than regular season.

Pace adjusted he's like a 12/15/4 playoff player and a 9/15/4 finals player. Russell is just as bad, but at least he basically gave you a top defense. Wilt gives you a good regular season, but then completely changes his game in the playoffs and completely ruins the team chemistry.

Russell/Wilt are way overrated here.

[dubeta]

Lol 30ppg to 18ppg. Why do people have Wilt as a top 5 player?

Yes he's probably a top 3(arguably goat) regular season player, but post season matters way more than regular season.

Pace adjusted he's like a 12/15/4 playoff player and a 9/15/4 finals player. Russell is just as bad, but at least he basically gave you a top defense. Wilt gives you a good regular season, but then completely changes his game in the playoffs and completely ruins the team chemistry.

Russell/Wilt are way overrated here.

:applause:

I ask myself that question as well. Even without accounting for weak-era differences, and looking solely at pace and nothing else, Wilt was a 14ppg playoff scorer and 9ppg Finals scorer adjusted for pace, thats slightly better than a role player in today's league, and definately not a GOAT candidate

[SHAQisGOAT]

he has always been consistent in playoffs. i really believe Spo made both wade and lebron try too hard on defense because they had to be so fast on defense to cover up heat's lack of interior defense.

put bird on those heat teams without a rim protector and you'd see how bad they would have been. when you are big offensive weapon like wade and lebron, heat's defensive scheme was very taxing on their body. wade gave up and kept going for steals from 2013 playoffs. lebron gave up in 2013-14 regular season and was inconsistent(tried too hard for steals) but was good in 2014 playoffs. i like lebron right now though since cavs got mozgov. he doesn't try to do it all by himself. he plays intelligent defense now but funneling the player he is guarding towards mozgov.

GTFOH... Who was Boston's rim protector in 1979-80, for example, might I ask?
Cowens was old, complete shell of his former self and while being a great defender in his prime he was never even a major shot-blocker or something, wasn't very tall for the position either. He didn't average over 1 BPG that year, not even per36. Speaking purely of rim-protection, I'd take Chris Andersen over that "version" of Cowens...

Matter of fact, nobody on that squad blocked more than 1 shot per game, not even per36.

Let's discuss his defensive "help" that year, for example one more time...
Cowens ready to retire? Cornbread only became more focused on D and solid at it, later on. Tiny was below average after them serious injuries. Carr was nice but not remotely close to something special. Ford had solid fundamentals but not much. Gerald Henderson was still young and not playing much. Robey was a 6'11, 230 lbs center who couldn't even block 0.5 shots per game.

And again, they were bottom3 in DRtg in 1979, then with basically the same core roster but with Bird and coach Fitch now... They jumped to 4th in the league in DRtg, winning 32 more games.
Bird led the team in DWS, DBPM and DRtg... Shit, he led the league in DWS, was 10th in DBPM and 6th in DRtg.
Let's say it was mostly on coach Fitch or something though :rolleyes:

Larry came around and proved he could really impact and improve teams with his defense also... Playing great team D, playing passing lnes, creating TO's, using them very fast hands, few weakside blocks, putting some pressure on his man (SF's or PF's), anticipating plays, hustling like a mad man, putting his body on the line, winning charges, going for every lose ball, rebounding like crazy...

He was already being called the league's best all-around player by the early 80's... And he wasn't even the scorer or playmaker he later became, not even ball in his hands as much.

[KevinNYC]

I'm trying not to disrespect Bird here, I know I have in the past, but in this instance I can't believe some of the responses.

I know Bird is historically an underrated defender, but I don't think it's close at all. I don't have any problem with someone who picks Lebron over Bird. I just have problem with people who need to distort the equation to make that choice. The prime example is someone calling Larry Bird lazy in this thread which is just complete ignorance or willful deception. The other thing is people like to compare players on some scouting chart comparison as opposed to what he actually did on the court.


Bird was everywhere on D with an incredibly uncanny knack for knowing how to stop the ball an disrupt through effort, deception, intimidation, and timing.Before Bird's back injuries he was everywhere on the court and it felt like he could make a play any time. He didn't take plays off and it was very rare he was out of place. When he went for steals, it wasn't gambling, because it was correct something like 90% of the time.

[sd3035]

Larry legend was a much better defender than Bran "traffic cone" James

[GimmeThat]

You "can" say LeBron was great during his miami days at the 4 for allowing players to drive and stop them at the same time.

As for his DRTG 1st Cavs days

[tpols]

The gap isn't that big but I do have to admit as far as defense goes Larry birds got bran by a sizeable margin.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Yes he's probably a top 3(arguably goat) regular season player, but post season matters way more than regular season.



Basketball's Peyton Manning?

[2010splash]

This is like comparing Kyle Korver to Scottie Pippen or Luc Longley to Hakeem Olajuwon.

Bird was a complete stiff on defense, nowhere close to LeBron. Put Bird on the 2011-2014 Heat and they'd probably lose to the Celtics/Pacers every year.

Kevin Durant >>> Larry Bird easily.

In today's game Bird is the 3rd best SF behind LeBron and Durant.

[2010splash]

http://cdn.hark.com/images/000/001/008/1008/original.jpg
:oldlol:

[LeBird]

Yeah, this one is especially funny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoGmMx8Ejrw

Draining the game winner in Jordan AND Pippen's face :lol

I personally think Lebron is a defensive freak. I put him up there with the best. His speed, size and adaptability make him a rich man's Scottie Pippen.

However, Bird's BBIQ translated into every facet of the game; including defense. His defensive stats, in terms of his personal and helping his team; all put him as an all-time great defender. It's the one area where he is really underrated. Even calling him "good" is underselling it.

[Millennium X]

Yeah, this one is especially funny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoGmMx8Ejrw

Draining the game winner in Jordan AND Pippen's face :lol

I personally think Lebron is a defensive freak. I put him up there with the best. His speed, size and adaptability make him a rich man's Scottie Pippen.

However, Bird's BBIQ translated into every facet of the game; including defense. His defensive stats, in terms of his personal and helping his team; all put him as an all-time great defender. It's the one area where he is really underrated. Even calling him "good" is underselling it.
Jordan kicked birds ass all throughout the 80s, it was an ugly nightmare matchup for bird.

[bizil]

I think some posters are forgetting that Bird played a lot of PF in his career. As a PF defender, he was very good. At SF, his main weakness was defending those quicker and more explosive swingmen or SF's on the perimeter. He was nowhere near guys like Cooper, MJ, Pippen, Moncrief, Robertson, Rodman, etc. in his era. For all intensive purposes, Bird was a combo forward anyway. So I balance out his PF defense and his SF defense. His PF defense was VERY GOOD so he makes up points defensively in that regard.

But the fact remains that Bron is clearly the superior defender. Too much versatility and athletic ability on Bird. Guys like Bron, Pippen, and Rodman come the closest to being able to defend all five positions on the court.

[ShawkFactory]

Perimeter wise? He can't guard a fire hydrant. You Lequit stans are unbelievable. All you see is him cheating lanes at the perimeter, stop with the "great", or all time nonsense. Leonard dumped all over him, what do you think Bird would have done?
Dude, you're retarded. Probably best that you don't post anymore..like ever.

Not only is what you said stupid, but it was also just completely and utterly irrelevant to what I said and what this thread is about in general. Gain general comprehension skills or don't post.

[KevinNYC]

I think some posters are forgetting that Bird played a lot of PF in his career. As a PF defender, he was very good. At SF, his main weakness was defending those quicker and more explosive swingmen or SF's on the perimeter. He was nowhere near guys like Cooper, MJ, Pippen, Moncrief, Robertson, Rodman, etc. in his era. For all intensive purposes, Bird was a combo forward anyway. So I balance out his PF defense and his SF defense. His PF defense was VERY GOOD so he makes up points defensively in that regard.

But the fact remains that Bron is clearly the superior defender. Too much versatility and athletic ability on Bird. Guys like Bron, Pippen, and Rodman come the closest to being able to defend all five positions on the court.
intents and purposes

[ShawkFactory]

Jordan kicked birds ass all throughout the 80s, it was an ugly nightmare matchup for bird.
Yea....no

[KevinNYC]

Jordan kicked birds ass all throughout the 80s, it was an ugly nightmare matchup for bird.

What are you talking about? Do you think they guarded each other?


This is what the Celtics did when Jordan would guard Bird. It usually resulted in Jordan not guarding Bird very long.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COiKFL3ky3M&t=127
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COiKFL3ky3M&t=148

You may want to read the description on that youtube post and see if your claim holds up.

[bizil]

intents and purposes

Thanks for the grammar lesson! LMAO U just had to go out of your way to point that out. I know its intents and purposes. But some people use ain't instead of isn't at times. So excuse me if I'm being informal and not proper on a basketball website.

[KevinNYC]

I know its intents and purposes.
...it's intents and purposes

[bizil]

...it's intents and purposes

Get a life!! I got a college degree and a job. I'm not here to impress anybody with grammar. I'm here to discuss hoops.

[colts19]

Jordan kicked birds ass all throughout the 80s, it was an ugly nightmare matchup for bird.

Jordan didn't guard Bird nor did Bird guard Jordan. So I don't have any idea what you mean be kicked Birds ass. I do know that Birds teams were 24 and 16 against Jordan's team. Also 6 and 0 against Jordans teams in the playoffs. Just saying.