Hakeem "The Dream" Olajuwon: Most Complete Center Ever.

[ClipperRevival]

Is anyone going to dispute that Olajuwon was the most complete center ever?

Some were more dominant down low (Shaq, Wilt) but who had Olajuwon's complete arsenal? How many bigs could face you up from 15-17 feet and take you off the dribble? And of course, his post up game is legendary. His footwork was off the charts. So good, Kobe, LeBron and a host of others learned from him. Imagine that. A center teacher wing players footwork. He had amazing touch. He could hit the 15-17 footer facing you up or via the turnaround. There wasn't one thing he couldn't do on offense as a big.

On the defensive end, he was about as good as it gets. With his amazing foot speed, mobility and fluidity, he could guard wing players in spots and defend P&R with ease. He could cover so much ground and erase teammate's mistakes. He also ran the floor like a gazelle.

I have never seen a big (6'11" or above) with his lower body fluidity. He was able to contort and twist his body with such ease, grace and speed. His spin moves were literally embarrassing the league. If you were to draw up the perfect, prototypical center, you would have Hakeem.

Thoughts?

[ButterFace]

I'd agree that he is the most complete. Not the best, but most complete.

[ClipperRevival]

I know i'll get a lot of slack for this but if you gave me the option to take any center in history to start a team, I just might take Hakeem. The only other guy I might take over him is Jabbar. But everyone else, I'm perfectly fine with taking Hakeem.

This guy dominated other great bigs in one of the most stacked eras in history for bigs. Some of his playoff performances were legendary. When Jordan retired for a couple of years, we saw who was the 2nd best player of this era. Hakeem carried two teams to championships.

If I'm not mistaken, the only player to ever win NBA MVP, DPOY and finals MVP in the same season. Wow.

[Demitri98]

A perfect center?

Hakeem's skillset and timing in Wilt's body but with Walton's passing.

[navy]

Interestingly enough, he didnt become this way until late in his career.

[ClipperRevival]

Also, the true mark of a legend is the ability to elevate your level of play in the playoffs. He averaged 22 ppg in the regular season but 26 ppg in the playoffs. The type of stuff Michael Jordan did. MJ averaged 30 ppg in the regular season, which is the highest ever already and one would think how is it possible to improve on that right? Well, MJ's career playoff average is 33 ppg.

That is in contrast to someone like Wilt. Who averaged only 22 ppg in the playoffs but averaged 30 ppg in the regular season.

[Lebron23]

He was a very skilled Center. For a 6'10-6'11" he had the agility, and quickness of a guard/small forward.

[Harison]

Hakeem is indeed the most complete center ever, in big part because he worked his ass off to become one. Dream came to the NBA very raw, dominant but raw. With each season he perfected his skillset more and more, and peaked quite late in his career.

[Taller than CP3]

I'd pick Hakeem in a one on one game vs Jordan

[LAZERUSS]

Also, the true mark of a legend is the ability to elevate your level of play in the playoffs. He averaged 22 ppg in the regular season but 26 ppg in the playoffs. The type of stuff Michael Jordan did. MJ averaged 30 ppg in the regular season, which is the highest ever already and one would think how is it possible to improve on that right? Well, MJ's career playoff average is 33 ppg.

That is in contrast to someone like Wilt. Who averaged only 22 ppg in the playoffs but averaged 30 ppg in the regular season.

Chamberlain didn't have the "good fortune" to get blown out eight times in the first round, either.

And give me the list of centers that Hakeem faced in his '94 playoff run, as well.

Furthermore, a "scoring" Chamberlain averaged 33 ppg in his post-seasons, and 60% of those 52 games were against RUSSELL.

How many times was Hakeem outrebounded in playoff series in his career, including TEAMMATES (see Thorpe and Barkley.)

How many times did Hakeem shoot poorly in playoff series, and in an era of .480+ eFG%'s?

[LeBird]

B-b-but, what about Wilt? You know, the guy who owned Kareem who owned Olajuwon? #stats

In before LAZERUSS

EDIT: LOL, he literally beat me to it by a few seconds.

[jlip]

I respect Hakeem's greatness as a top ~10 ish player of all time, but I do think that sometimes we get too caught up in the aesthetics of his post moves. Yes, he is definitely in the "most complete center" conversation, but I don't believe he is. I believe that there is a good case for Kareem being more complete than Hakeem. Kareem had arguably the most unstoppable offensive move in history. For an entire decade he was a top five rebounder. He actually led the league in blocks more times than Hakeem, and was very good defensively in his prime. In addition to that he seemed to be a slightly better passer than Hakeem.

[LAZERUSS]

B-b-but, what about Wilt? You know, the guy who owned Kareem who owned Olajuwon? #stats

In before LAZERUSS

EDIT: LOL, he literally beat me to it by a few seconds.

Hakeem was good enough to take a few teams to 50+ wins. And he was good enough to get them crushed in the first round in over HALF of his post-season career, too. He was also good enough to win a title in a year in which the MJ-less Bulls went 55-27, and lost a close seven game series against a 56-26 Knick team that would lose a close seven game series against Hakeem's 58-24 Rockets (and actually outscored them in that series.)

And without his TEAMMATES in the '95 Finals, in a series in which a young Shaq basically crushed him, and he would have lost yet another
ring.

[Fudge]

1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem

In that order

[Harison]

I respect Hakeem's greatness as a top ~10 ish player of all time, but I do think that sometimes we get too caught up in the aesthetics of his post moves. Yes, he is definitely in the "most complete center" conversation, but I don't believe he is. I believe that there is a good case for Kareem being more complete than Hakeem. Kareem had arguably the most unstoppable offensive move in history. For an entire decade he was a top five rebounder. He actually led the league in blocks more times than Hakeem, and was very good defensively in his prime. In addition to that he seemed to be a slightly better passer than Hakeem.
Good post, but IMO "the most complete center" also includes the most post moves and defending 1-5, and Dream has handily beat Kareem there. If we would speak which center is more dominant - Kareem definitely has a case over Dream, Shaq enters convo too.

Another good example - Garnett is definitely the most complete PF ever, but as the most dominant? Timmy and Mailman have a few things to say.

[ClipperRevival]

I respect Hakeem's greatness as a top ~10 ish player of all time, but I do think that sometimes we get too caught up in the aesthetics of his post moves. Yes, he is definitely in the "most complete center" conversation, but I don't believe he is. I believe that there is a good case for Kareem being more complete than Hakeem. Kareem had arguably the most unstoppable offensive move in history. For an entire decade he was a top five rebounder. He actually led the league in blocks more times than Hakeem, and was very good defensively in his prime. In addition to that he seemed to be a slightly better passer than Hakeem.

Could Jabbar face you up from 15-17 feet and take you off the dribble like a guard? No. Did Jabbar have Hakeem's array of post moves? No. Hakeem was also much more fluid in his movements than Kareem.

To me, Jabbar is the only other player who can legitimately make the claim to the GOAT along with MJ. So I really respect his legacy and what he achieved. But most dominant does not mean most complete. Jabbar was more dominant but Hakeem was more complete.

[LAZERUSS]

Could Jabbar face you up from 15-17 feet and take you off the dribble like a guard? No. Did Jabbar have Hakeem's array of post moves? No. Hakeem was also much more fluid in his movements than Kareem.

To me, Jabbar is the only other player who can legitimately make the claim to the GOAT along with MJ. So I really respect his legacy and what he achieved. But most dominant does not mean most complete. Jabbar was more dominant but Hakeem was more complete.

Just some samples...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHMKlx7Was

[ClipperRevival]

He was a very skilled Center. For a 6'10-6'11" he had the agility, and quickness of a guard/small forward.

It was unbelievable. It's like God made him 6'11" but gave him the lower body fluidity of a guard. I have never seen a guy that big be that fluid, coordinated and quick in his lower body movement. The guy was truly one in a million, even amongst bigs.

[ClipperRevival]

Chamberlain didn't have the "good fortune" to get blown out eight times in the first round, either.

And give me the list of centers that Hakeem faced in his '94 playoff run, as well.

Furthermore, a "scoring" Chamberlain averaged 33 ppg in his post-seasons, and 60% of those 52 games were against RUSSELL.

How many times was Hakeem outrebounded in playoff series in his career, including TEAMMATES (see Thorpe and Barkley.)

How many times did Hakeem shoot poorly in playoff series, and in an era of .480+ eFG%'s?

Hmm, my eyes tell me he averaged 22.5 ppg in the playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html

But anyways, I know you're a Wilt lover. This topic isn't about Wilt. So I'm not going to get into that.

[Dr Hawk]

This is a good documentary about Hakeem. It made me like him even more

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB3iIviCIMg

[LAZERUSS]

Hmm, my eyes tell me he averaged 22.5 ppg in the playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html

But anyways, I know you're a Wilt lover. This topic isn't about Wilt. So I'm not going to get into that.

Hmmm...go back amnd re-read YOUR posts then...


Also, the true mark of a legend is the ability to elevate your level of play in the playoffs. He averaged 22 ppg in the regular season but 26 ppg in the playoffs. The type of stuff Michael Jordan did. MJ averaged 30 ppg in the regular season, which is the highest ever already and one would think how is it possible to improve on that right? Well, MJ's career playoff average is 33 ppg.

That is in contrast to someone like Wilt. Who averaged only 22 ppg in the playoffs but averaged 30 ppg in the regular season.

And again...CONTEXT.

MY eyes tell me that Chamberlain was capable of hanging 50+ point games in MUST WIN playoff games. And 45 point games in MUST WIN Finals games.

Or that a "scoring" Wilt was AVERAGING 30 ppg, 27 rpg, 5 apg, and on FG%'s that were 10 percentage points higher than the post-season league average at the time....and in a course of his first 67 playoff games. How many 30-27-5 .580 (about 10 percentage points higher than the league average) GAMES did Hakeem have in his post-season career...much less over the course of his first 67 games?

And I notice you ignored his rebounding. Wilt played in 29 post-season series, and was NEVER outrebounded by an opposing center. Not once.

Or that Wilt ROUTINELY held his OPPOSING CENTERS, the vast majority of which are in the HOF, to 10 percentage points under their regular season FG%'s. And Chamberlain was ROUTINELY outshooting them by as much as 20 percentage points.

[jlip]

Could Jabbar face you up from 15-17 feet and take you off the dribble like a guard? No. Did Jabbar have Hakeem's array of post moves? No. Hakeem was also much more fluid in his movements than Kareem.

To me, Jabbar is the only other player who can legitimately make the claim to the GOAT along with MJ. So I really respect his legacy and what he achieved. But most dominant does not mean most complete. Jabbar was more dominant but Hakeem was more complete.

You are correct. Hakeem did have a better face up game than Kareem, but my post already addressed the issue of "post moves". As a matter of fact it was in the first sentence. I said:

...I do think that sometimes we get too caught up in the aesthetics of his [Hakeem's]post moves.

Having visually appealing post moves that do not generate a more effective or reliable shot does not make a player more "complete" to me. That makes him more stylish. Yes, there was also great substance to Hakeem's offensive game, and abundance of it. (Just ask Shaq and David Robinson about that.) I guess we just have different interpretations of what constitutes completeness. It appears that I have a far more simplistic definition of that term. My criteria, as it pertains to centers is, scoring, rebounding, defense, and passing.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Hakeem was good enough to take a few teams to 50+ wins. And he was good enough to get them crushed in the first round in over HALF of his post-season career, too. He was also good enough to win a title in a year in which the MJ-less Bulls went 55-27, and lost a close seven game series against a 56-26 Knick team that would lose a close seven game series against Hakeem's 58-24 Rockets (and actually outscored them in that series.)

And without his TEAMMATES in the '95 Finals, in a series in which a young Shaq basically crushed him, and he would have lost yet another
ring.

ISH: Where stupid revisionist history happens.

[Chadwin]

Yes, and is up there with Jordan and Shaq for best peak season ever.

pretty much won that 94 title by himself

[Smoke117]

He was never much of a passer...so I dunno if I'd go so far as to say most complete. That would probably be Bill Walton for me.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Has a great case but you also got Wilt, peak Kareem, even Walton.

[bizil]

I'm for sure on board with this one. It would come down to Dream, Wilt, Kareem, D Rob, and Walton. But I give the edge to Dream because he literally had it all in spades. If Walton showed a bit more dominance scoring, it could have just as easily been him.

[oarabbus]

Walton was incredibly complete, arguably just as complete as Hakeem. In fact he was probably more complete than Hakeem, the only thing that wasn't complete was his physical health.

[Psileas]

Peak for peak, his case would be better, but overall, others have just as good a chance. He's not among the best C's at everything. For example, among the 5 GOAT centers, he's likely the worst passer. Wilt had 78 triple doubles thanks to assists alone, Russell was often his team's second leading passer after their PG (talking about whole seasons - and, as a matter of fact, in '67, he led the whole team), Kareem was better as well. He was also the most foul prone.

[oarabbus]

Also Kevin McHale had better post moves than Hakeem. Hakeem was obviously much better, more explosive, and athletically gifted, but McHale had better post moves.

[jzek]

My GOAT center. Every other potential GOAT center has a weakness (shaq can't shoot free throws, Wilt has no jumper, Russell has limited offensive moves, KAJ can't beat you off the dribble, etc.) but Hakeem has no weakness offensively and defensively.

[Harison]

One guys is left out in this conversation - Sabonis, he was just as complete if not more than Walton. Other than his passing though, I would still take Dream (over Walton too).

[Smoke117]

Walton was incredibly complete, arguably just as complete as Hakeem. In fact he was probably more complete than Hakeem, the only thing that wasn't complete was his physical health.

Yup. Those last two blazers years Walton was the best defensive player in the league, one of the leagues best rebounders, and by far the best passing big man in the league. As far as scoring goes...he could always score, but he had a very keen BBIQ and decided to go in a different direction. Considering the Blazers won the 78 championship...I'd say it worked out pretty damn well.

[bizil]

Also Kevin McHale had better post moves than Hakeem. Hakeem was obviously much better, more explosive, and athletically gifted, but McHale had better post moves.

I agree. In terms of low post arsenal, McHale is the best of all time. From there, I would say Hakeem and Duncan.

[bizil]

When it comes to Walton vs. Hakeem, the main difference is the scoring part. Dream showed more dominance scoring. Bill's career was cut criminally short. So we never got to see how the scoring aspects would have played out. But frankly, Walton and Duncan are very similar in my opinion. If they have a great team, they will play in the flow more than other great scoring bigs. BUT they were also alpha dogs and can dominate scoring when needed.

[LAZERUSS]

Hmm, my eyes tell me he averaged 22.5 ppg in the playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html

But anyways, I know you're a Wilt lover. This topic isn't about Wilt. So I'm not going to get into that.

BTW, I am not arguing that Hakeem was a complete center.

I just take offense to the "Wilt myths" that have been perpetuated throughout this and other forums.

Was Hakeem the most "complete?" Perhaps, but as some other's have suggested, he was not the most dominant.

[bizil]

BTW, I am not arguing that Hakeem was a complete center.

I just take offense to the "Wilt myths" that have been perpetuated throughout this and other forums.

Was Hakeem the most "complete?" Perhaps, but as some other's have suggested, he was not the most dominant.

I agree. Wilt was the most dominant center of all time in terms of the numbers. Shaq was the most dominant physical force of all time. Kareem was the best blend of skill and dominance ever at center. So for me Wilt, Shaq, and Kareem are in class by themselves in terms of dominance. Wilt and Shaq were phyiscal brutes at 7'1. Kareem was 7'2 and moved like a man much smaller. Hakeem in terms of size wasn't as unique as those three.

[Asukal]

BTW, I am not arguing that Hakeem was a complete center.

I just take offense to the "Wilt myths" that have been perpetuated throughout this and other forums.

Was Hakeem the most "complete?" Perhaps, but as some other's have suggested, he was not the most dominant.

It's all your fault Wilt is now one of the most disrespected ATG in this forum. Because you post so much bullshit. Stop posting grandpa, go and enjoy your retirement. It would be sad to see you hit the sack while copy pasting your Wilt essays. :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

I respect Hakeem's greatness as a top ~10 ish player of all time, but I do think that sometimes we get too caught up in the aesthetics of his post moves. Yes, he is definitely in the "most complete center" conversation, but I don't believe he is. I believe that there is a good case for Kareem being more complete than Hakeem. Kareem had arguably the most unstoppable offensive move in history. For an entire decade he was a top five rebounder. He actually led the league in blocks more times than Hakeem, and was very good defensively in his prime. In addition to that he seemed to be a slightly better passer than Hakeem.
All the reasons why the answer is Kareem.

[LAZERUSS]

ISH: Where stupid revisionist history happens.

THIS is reality my friend...

(Thanks to Colts18 for this excellent breakdown)...


I decided to rewatch the 1995 finals and chart each possession to see to how effective Shaq and Hakeem were on the court. A special shout out to Jordanbulls for providing the video of this series


Total:
Hakeem: 253 touches, 140 doubles (55.3%)
Shaq: 221 touches, 146 doubles (66.1%)

Here are their stats when they were guarded by each other:
Shaq 32-57 (56.1 FG%), 6-8 FT, 67.3 double teamed%, .578 TS%, 17 assists, 1 O-reb allowed to Hakeem
Hakeem: 31-75 (41.3 FG%), 9-13 FT, 60.2 double teamed%, .446 TS%, 8 assists, 3 O-reb allowed to Shaq

Shaq blocked 2 Hakeem shots, Hakeem blocked 0 Shaq shots. Hakeem did make a 3P on Shaq. Hakeem guarded Shaq on 73.3% of the touches he had, while Shaq guarded Hakeem on 69.6% of his touches. Hakeem got a lot more fastbreak touches than Shaq so in the halfcourt, they guarded each other about even.

When they weren't being guarded by each other, Shaq was being guarded by Charles Jones and Hakeem by Horace Grant.

Shaq vs Jones: 7-11 FG (63.6 FG%), 35 doubles in 52 touches (67.3%), 2 assists
Hakeem vs Grant: 13-24 (54.2 FG%), 33 double teams in 58 touches (56.9%), 6 assists

Jump shots:
Hakeem: 27-62 (43.5%)
Shaq: 2-7 (28.6%)

The vast majority of Shaq's shots were close range hooks.

Dunks:
Hakeem: 1 dunk (vs grant)
Shaq: 9 dunks (2 of them were in Hakeem's face)

Fouls drawn on offense:
Shaq: 37 (17 on Hakeem)
Hakeem: 21 (9 on Shaq)

Hakeem did draw 4 Shaq charges.

Shaq was called for 5 travels, Hakeem 2.

Plus/Minus (Houston outscored Orlando by 28 points total):
On court:
Shaq: -12 in 180 minutes
Hakeem: +17 in 179 minutes

Off court:
Shaq: -16 in 16:37 of action (Houston scored 133 points per 48 in the minutes Shaq missed)
Hakeem: +11 in 17:11 of action (134 points per 48 in the minutes he was off the court)

Interestingly enough, in 2 of the games, the Magic outscored the Rockets when Shaq was on the court. The magic were -8 in about 9 minutes of action without Shaq in game (lost by just 2 points). In game 3, they were -4 in the minutes Shaq missed in a game where they lost by 3 points. In game 1, the Rockets outscored the magic by 9 in the minutes Hakeem missed, but they were outscored by a combined 4 points in games 3 and 4 without Hakeem.

Observations:
-Orlando was for some reason really committed to doubling Hakeem in game 1. They were throwing a lot of hard doubles. Hakeem had 5 assists in that game, all of them 3 pointers, 4 came off of doubles (one was a triple team). I'm guessing it was a response to Hakeem's series vs Robinson. For the rest of the series, Orlando didn't double Hakeem as much and they threw softer doubles.

-Hakeem made like 5 or 6 baskets in transition to Shaq's 1 or so. So while Shaq didn't get credit for giving up those buckets since he didn't guard, a few of those times Shaq was slow in transition. Shaq got about 3 or shots

-One of the commentators compared Horry to Scottie Pippen and Walton took the comment seriously. They are vastly different players IMO

-I'm not sure why Penny wasn't more aggressive. Kenny Smith couldn't guard him at all. When Penny did drive to the basket, he made a few shots over Hakeem.

-Drexler was the man in this series. He really wanted to get his first title badly. For some reason, people rarely talk about him despite him getting more WS than Hakeem in that playoff run

-It's fashionable these days to **** on Hakeem's cast in 94, but this cast was much better than that one. The guards outplayed Orlando's guards. Horry played really well. The 3P shooters benefited a lot from the shortened 3P line.

-Contrary to popular belief, handchecking wasn't allowed in 95. The refs called like 2 handchecking fouls in this series

-I'm so thankful the NBA got rid of the illegal defense. The refs called like 5 of them in each game. It destroyed the flow of the game and limited the ways you could double team a player.

Oh, and how about Hakem's TEAMMATES vs. Shaq's TEAMMATES in that Finals?


Hakeem's TEAMMATES, collectively, had a considerably higher TS% in that series, than Hakeem, himself. So, those that favor this stat, had better prepared to explain that. Looks to me like Houston won that series DESPITE Hakeem.

Meanwhile, Shaq's TS% in that Finals was far greater than what his teammates gave him.

Hakeem shot 55-115 from the field, 1-1 from the arc, and 18-26 from the line.
His teammates shot 70-136 from 2pt range, 36-91 from the arc, and 77-97 from the line.

Shaq shot 44-74 from the field, and 24-42 from the line.
His teammates shot 78-156 from 2 pt range, 41-118 from the arc, and 37-47 from the line.

Using a TRUE TS%, Hakeem shot .508. His teammates collectively shot .589.

Shaq shot a TRUE TS% of .589. His teammates shot a collective .533.


Hell, Hakeem didn't even shoot the post-season NBA average in eFG% (.488 to the league average of .504.)

"Revisionist history" is making Hakeem out as something he wasn't.

The REALITY...

Hakeem played 18 seasons. He finished in the Top-10 in the MVP voting, ten times, or a little more than half. He finished in the Top-4 FOUR times, with ONE MVP, and ONE runner-up. And his MVP came in a year in which Jordan took off.

He played on FIVE teams that won 50+ games, with a HIGH of 58 wins.

And in his 15 post-seasons, he was wiped out EIGHT times in the FIRST ROUND, and the majority of those were blow-outs.

He won one ring in a year in which MJ took off, and the Bulls still went 55-27. That Bulls team lost a close (and controversial) seven game series to a 56-26 Knicks team that lost a close seven game series to Hakeem's 58-24 Rockets (and they actually outscored Houston in that series.) Does anyone in their right mind honestly believe that Hakeem's Rockets would have beaten a Jordan-led team in '94?

And, as you can read above, he can thank his TEAMMATES for his ring in the '95 Finals. Had Shaq's teammates showed up, and Hakeem would have won one less ring.

[LAZERUSS]

It's all your fault Wilt is now one of the most disrespected ATG in this forum. Because you post so much bullshit. Stop posting grandpa, go and enjoy your retirement. It would be sad to see you hit the sack while copy pasting your Wilt essays. :oldlol:

No, it's actually a small handful of "Custerites" who "disrespect" Wilt here. Most of the rest ran for the hills after CavsFan began showing actual footage of Chamberlain. The numbers were always there, but now the footage was available that proved his domination. Only a few idiots even attempt to argue the facts now, and they are easily dispensed with.

[Smoke117]

No, it's actually a small handful of "Custerites" who "disrespect" Wilt here. Most of the rest ran for the hills after CavsFan began showing actual footage of Chamberlain. The numbers were always there, but now the footage was available that proved his domination. Only a few idiots even attempt to argue the facts now, and they are easily dispensed with.

Or maybe...we just don't care? Novel concept, eh?

[LAZERUSS]

Or maybe...we just don't care? Novel concept, eh?

Oh you care alright. I see you poking your head into many Wilt threads and posts. You even take the time to post on the topic yourself...with THIS one being just another example.

[Prime_Shaq]

Most complete, maybe. If I had to start a franchise with a Center I would choose
1. Kareem
2. Shaq
3. Hakeem

[Asukal]

No, it's actually a small handful of "Custerites" who "disrespect" Wilt here. Most of the rest ran for the hills after CavsFan began showing actual footage of Chamberlain. The numbers were always there, but now the footage was available that proved his domination. Only a few idiots even attempt to argue the facts now, and they are easily dispensed with.

Keep on believing that grandpa. :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

LAZ going hard on these kids in here

[ClipperRevival]

THIS is reality my friend...

(Thanks to Colts18 for this excellent breakdown)...



Oh, and how about Hakem's TEAMMATES vs. Shaq's TEAMMATES in that Finals?



"Revisionist history" is making Hakeem out as something he wasn't.

The REALITY...

Hakeem played 18 seasons. He finished in the Top-10 in the MVP voting, ten times, or a little more than half. He finished in the Top-4 FOUR times, with ONE MVP, and ONE runner-up. And his MVP came in a year in which Jordan took off.

He played on FIVE teams that won 50+ games, with a HIGH of 58 wins.

And in his 15 post-seasons, he was wiped out EIGHT times in the FIRST ROUND, and the majority of those were blow-outs.

He won one ring in a year in which MJ took off, and the Bulls still went 55-27. That Bulls team lost a close (and controversial) seven game series to a 56-26 Knicks team that lost a close seven game series to Hakeem's 58-24 Rockets (and they actually outscored Houston in that series.) Does anyone in their right mind honestly believe that Hakeem's Rockets would have beaten a Jordan-led team in '94?

And, as you can read above, he can thank his TEAMMATES for his ring in the '95 Finals. Had Shaq's teammates showed up, and Hakeem would have won one less ring.

This is just sad. Two people hell bent on discrediting Hakeem. I can do this to anyone, including Jordan, who is the GOAT. Here's what I do know. The Rockets swept the Magic. Hakeem averaged 33 ppg and 12 rebounds in that series. Yes, he had help. No single player wins a ring by himself. You usually need an alpha dog, a great second fiddle and a third, star caliber player. So Hakeem is held to such a lofty standard that he has to do it himself? Even MJ needed help in Pippen and Grant/Rodman.

The fact is, when the GOAT retired for 2 years, there was a vacuum at the top. There were some great teams with some great players that had a chance to claim that throne. And Hakeem was the one who elevated his level of play and led his team to two titles. Not Barkley, not Robinson, not Ewing, not Malone/Stockton, etc.

We can nitpick and play what if scenarios all day but this is what happened. If it makes you feel better to focus on his failures, all power to you. But guess what, Hakeem still has his 2 rings and his two finals mvps and tnat carries a lot of weight my friend.

[ClipperRevival]

You are correct. Hakeem did have a better face up game than Kareem, but my post already addressed the issue of "post moves". As a matter of fact it was in the first sentence. I said:


Having visually appealing post moves that do not generate a more effective or reliable shot does not make a player more "complete" to me. That makes him more stylish. Yes, there was also great substance to Hakeem's offensive game, and abundance of it. (Just ask Shaq and David Robinson about that.) I guess we just have different interpretations of what constitutes completeness. It appears that I have a far more simplistic definition of that term. My criteria, as it pertains to centers is, scoring, rebounding, defense, and passing.

Yes, my criteria is not simple. I am breaking down each of their games in every aspect. Not simplistics terms as you described. There are many ways a big can score. And when you break down Hakeem's game, he really had no weakness. He could do it all. Inside/outside, back to the basket/face you up, take you off the dribble, jumper via face up or back to the baset (even fading away), off the charts pivot moves in the paint, hooks, floaters, etc. You name it, he could do it outside of the sky hook.

But like I said, most complete does not mean most dominant because at his peak, Jabbar was more dominant. I can concede that. But this discussion is only about who was more complete and had the fewest weaknesses.

[ClipperRevival]

Yes, and is up there with Jordan and Shaq for best peak season ever.

pretty much won that 94 title by himself

Only player in history to win regular season MVP, DPOY and finals MVP in the same season if I'm not mistaken. So yeah, I would say that qualifies.

[ClipperRevival]

Peak for peak, his case would be better, but overall, others have just as good a chance. He's not among the best C's at everything. For example, among the 5 GOAT centers, he's likely the worst passer. Wilt had 78 triple doubles thanks to assists alone, Russell was often his team's second leading passer after their PG (talking about whole seasons - and, as a matter of fact, in '67, he led the whole team), Kareem was better as well. He was also the most foul prone.

I don't see how Wilt or Russell can get on any "complete" discussions. Wilt couldn't play away from the basket. Like Shaq, he did most of his damage down low. That's a huge weakness when evaluating the completeness of a big's game. And Russell didn't have much of an offensive game to begin with so he isn't even in the conversation if we are being objective here.

[ClipperRevival]

Another shocking fact to consider. Olajuwon is 29th all time in steals per game at 1.7. That's ridiculous and just goes to show how he really had the fluidity and quickness of a much smaller player. The next big on the list is D. Robinson with 1.4 per game, which ranks him 55th all time. That's also impressive and proves how gifted and talented Robinson was.

Hakeem also has the 5th highest PER in playoff history with 25.69 and the 9th highest scoring avg with 25.90. Both numbers are a noticeable boost from his regular season career averages, which is what you want to see. Great players taking their games to an even higher level when it matters most.

[ClipperRevival]

He was never much of a passer...so I dunno if I'd go so far as to say most complete. That would probably be Bill Walton for me.

Early in his career he wasn't but during his peak, he was. Much like Shaq in that they recognized the double and found the open man. I never saw Walton play so i can't comment but based on what I read, there seems to be a consensus that he was. But if I have a dominant big who is always doubled, I just want him to recognize the double and hit the open man. Anything beyond that is gravy.

[ClipperRevival]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=22O2lApCBBs

Watch this video to fully appreciate the entire arsenal of his offensive game. Watch the whole thing because the video progresses from one set of moves to another.

[iamgine]

How do we measure completeness? For example, guarding perimeter players. Kareem certainly can guard the perimeter players, it's just he'd be worse at it than Hakeem but much better than Shaq. I'm sure Kareem can at least guard perimeter players at Steve Nash level or better.



Fun fact: David Robinson actually outplayed Hakeem most of the time they met.

[ClipperRevival]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gvMZU9fbpiY

Shaq, Kenny and Cwebb discussing Hakeem's offensive game.

[Psileas]

I don't see how Wilt or Russell can get on any "complete" discussions. Wilt couldn't play away from the basket. Like Shaq, he did most of his damage down low. That's a huge weakness when evaluating the completeness of a big's game. And Russell didn't have much of an offensive game to begin with so he isn't even in the conversation if we are being objective here.

Early Wilt played away from the basket more than he was supposed to do. How do you think he was "only" shooting in the low 50's in FG? By playing Shaq-like?
Russell didn't have lots of scoring moves, but he did pretty much everything else at an elite level. Trying to exclude him for this is like trying to exclude Magic from the most complete guard/PG discussions due to him not being a great defender.

[pauk]

I agree.

[stanlove1111]

Is anyone going to dispute that Olajuwon was the most complete center ever?

Some were more dominant down low (Shaq, Wilt) but who had Olajuwon's complete arsenal? How many bigs could face you up from 15-17 feet and take you off the dribble? And of course, his post up game is legendary. His footwork was off the charts. So good, Kobe, LeBron and a host of others learned from him. Imagine that. A center teacher wing players footwork. He had amazing touch. He could hit the 15-17 footer facing you up or via the turnaround. There wasn't one thing he couldn't do on offense as a big.

On the defensive end, he was about as good as it gets. With his amazing foot speed, mobility and fluidity, he could guard wing players in spots and defend P&R with ease. He could cover so much ground and erase teammate's mistakes. He also ran the floor like a gazelle.

I have never seen a big (6'11" or above) with his lower body fluidity. He was able to contort and twist his body with such ease, grace and speed. His spin moves were literally embarrassing the league. If you were to draw up the perfect, prototypical center, you would have Hakeem.

Thoughts?

I would take 1978 Walton as the most complete center. He was a better rebounder,passer, and defender then Hakeem and he like Magic could have scored a ton if that was his goal.

Actually I think Walton at that point was the best passer,defender and rebounder in the league.

[LAZERUSS]

Early Wilt played away from the basket more than he was supposed to do. How do you think he was "only" shooting in the low 50's in FG? By playing Shaq-like?
Russell didn't have lots of scoring moves, but he did pretty much everything else at an elite level. Trying to exclude him for this is like trying to exclude Magic from the most complete guard/PG discussions due to him not being a great defender.

Chamberlain came into the league with a good outside game...


Carl Braun said "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70


And again, here is a quick example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

An early 60's Chamberlain was virtually unstoppable because of his range and mobility. He could get almost any shot he wanted, and could manuever into a position to get take those shots...from either side of the basket. As that footage shows, he was hitting jump shots from the above the FT line. And his range on his turn-around bank shots were 15+ feet, as well.

Of course, CavsFTW has virtually all of the Wilt footage that is available, and here is the best footage of a "Complete" Wilt that exists...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B7jVTJ_CIE

And while Wilt was never a good FT shooter, he was at least relatively decent in the early 60's. And he had some staggering games from the LINE in his career, as well. By now most everyone here knows that Chamberlain shot 28-32 from the line in his 100 point game, but in his five straight game scoring streak of 351 points, he had games of 17-22, 15-20, 13-17, that 28-32 game, and 10-16....or .776. And, for that entire season, he shot .613. In fact, he MADE 835 FTs that year, and only Jerry West made more in a single season (840 in '65.)

In terms of "complete", an early 60's, to even a mid-60's, Wilt likely was the greatest in virtually every aspect of the game. True, his FT%'s were mediocre, BUT, he MADE a TON of them. Not to mention the fact that his EFFECTIVE FT%'s were probably considerably higher than his ACTUAL FT%'s.

The "bashers" will use "pace", and "mpg" against Chamberlain, but they will never acknowledge "league average." Wilt was shooting .506 in leagues that had an eFG% of .426, or .528 in a league that shot .441, or .540 in a league that shot .433. And, of course, a "balanced" Wilt was shooting as high as .683 in a league that shot .441.

Nor will they concede that Wilt's "efficiency" likely suffered because of him playing 48 mpg on a nightly basis (and BTW, as many as five games in five straight nights.)

But, just using Wilt's 62-63 season, as an example... 44.8 ppg, on a .528 FG%, in a league that shot .441. In Hakeem's best scoring season, he averaged 27.8 ppg on a .517 FG%...in a league that shot an eFG% of .500 (yes... .500.) Wilt's .528, which was already better, would have translated to .598 in '95. And once again, cut Wilt's playing time down, and that would surely rise, as well. And as we all know, he won NINE FG% titles, and had the highest season in NBA history at .727.

Rebounding? Even discounting Wilt's staggering RPG marks, which were achieved in considerably more inflated times, he was still running away with rpg titles, and his known TRB%'s were in the 24 range. Again, which is even more remarkable considering he was playing 48 mpg. Reduce his playing time down to more modern levels, and it would rationally be even higher. Of course, he was not only winning RPG titles (11 in 14 seasons, and it would likely have been 12 had he not been injured in '69-70)...he was CRUSHING his peers in H2H's in that category...particularly in the POST-SEASON. I have posted his H2H's here for those who might be interested...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617

Defense?

You can look at the above link. year-after-year he reduced his HOF peers to just awful shooting in their H2H's. Even as far back as his ROOKIE season. You won't find centers shooting .595 against him in a series, or .630 over the course of ten straight H2H's (and even as high as .677 in 10 straight H2H's), like Hakeem allowed.

Chamberlain was voted First-Team All-Defense in his last two seasons, and had the award existed in the 60's, he likely would have won a couple more ('67 and '68...and he should have won it easily in '69.) In fact, had DPOY's existed in his career, and he would have most likely won several.

And we do KNOW, that Chamberlain has the TWO highest "non-Russell" DWS seasons in NBA history ('64 and '68.)

Shot-blocking? Easily the greatest ever. This is indisputable. Hell, in his LAST season, at age 36, we now know that he averaged 5.42 bpg. Only 12 years later did Eaton set the "official" mark of 5.56. However, the evidence suggests that Wilt had entire SEASONS of 10+ bpg. And Julizaver has compiled Wilt's KNOWN blocks in his post-season. In his 80 known games... 570 blocks, which would STILL be the all-time post-season record...and with Chamberlain playing in another 80 post-season games in which we don't have that block info.

Passing? It amazes me at how his passing is over-looked here. His two best seasons of 7.8 and even 8.6 apg, just BLOWS AWAY any other center who has ever played the game. And he had post-season runs of 6.5 and 9.0 apg, as well. My god, the man LED the league in assists on year. And keep in mind that assists were more difficult to come by in his era.

BTW, and as a side-note...as late as his '69-70 season, he was leading the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg, on a .579 FG%, and with 20.0 rpg, when he blew out his knee. Rookie Kareem would average 28.8 ppg, 14.5 rpg, and shoot .518 in that same season. And by that time, Wilt was terrorizing his opposing centers defensively H2H. I have posted his defensive H2H's from just the season before (68-69), and he reduced his opposing HOF centers to just horrific shooting. Oh, and in that same 68-69 season, Wilt had a RECORDED 23 block game...which is well above the "official" record of 17.

Now that was a COMPLETE center. The greatest scorer, the most efficient scorer from the field, the greatest rebounder, likely the second greatest defender, the greatest shot-blocker, and the greatest passing center in NBA history. IMHO, only an early 70's KAJ would be close.

[Helix]

Now that was a COMPLETE center. The greatest scorer, the most efficient scorer from the field, the greatest rebounder, likely the second greatest defender, the greatest shot-blocker, and the greatest passing center in NBA history. IMHO, only an early 70's KAJ would be close.


I laughed when I saw the title of this thread. You know Laz, you can type up all the facts you want, the nitwits around here don't care. They could care less what the facts show, that Wilt Chamberlain is the best all around center to ever play the game.....case closed.

[ClipperRevival]

Chamberlain came into the league with a good outside game...



And again, here is a quick example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

An early 60's Chamberlain was virtually unstoppable because of his range and mobility. He could get almost any shot he wanted, and could manuever into a position to get take those shots...from either side of the basket. As that footage shows, he was hitting jump shots from the above the FT line. And his range on his turn-around bank shots were 15+ feet, as well.

Of course, CavsFTW has virtually all of the Wilt footage that is available, and here is the best footage of a "Complete" Wilt that exists...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B7jVTJ_CIE

And while Wilt was never a good FT shooter, he was at least relatively decent in the early 60's. And he had some staggering games from the LINE in his career, as well. By now most everyone here knows that Chamberlain shot 28-32 from the line in his 100 point game, but in his five straight game scoring streak of 351 points, he had games of 17-22, 15-20, 13-17, that 28-32 game, and 10-16....or .776. And, for that entire season, he shot .613. In fact, he MADE 835 FTs that year, and only Jerry West made more in a single season (840 in '65.)

In terms of "complete", an early 60's, to even a mid-60's, Wilt likely was the greatest in virtually every aspect of the game. True, his FT%'s were mediocre, BUT, he MADE a TON of them. Not to mention the fact that his EFFECTIVE FT%'s were probably considerably higher than his ACTUAL FT%'s.

The "bashers" will use "pace", and "mpg" against Chamberlain, but they will never acknowledge "league average." Wilt was shooting .506 in leagues that had an eFG% of .426, or .528 in a league that shot .441, or .540 in a league that shot .433. And, of course, a "balanced" Wilt was shooting as high as .683 in a league that shot .441.

Nor will they concede that Wilt's "efficiency" likely suffered because of him playing 48 mpg on a nightly basis (and BTW, as many as five games in five straight nights.)

But, just using Wilt's 62-63 season, as an example... 44.8 ppg, on a .528 FG%, in a league that shot .441. In Hakeem's best scoring season, he averaged 27.8 ppg on a .517 FG%...in a league that shot an eFG% of .500 (yes... .500.) Wilt's .528, which was already better, would have translated to .598 in '95. And once again, cut Wilt's playing time down, and that would surely rise, as well. And as we all know, he won NINE FG% titles, and had the highest season in NBA history at .727.

Rebounding? Even discounting Wilt's staggering RPG marks, which were achieved in considerably more inflated times, he was still running away with rpg titles, and his known TRB%'s were in the 24 range. Again, which is even more remarkable considering he was playing 48 mpg. Reduce his playing time down to more modern levels, and it would rationally be even higher. Of course, he was not only winning RPG titles (11 in 14 seasons, and it would likely have been 12 had he not been injured in '69-70)...he was CRUSHING his peers in H2H's in that category...particularly in the POST-SEASON. I have posted his H2H's here for those who might be interested...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617

Defense?

You can look at the above link. year-after-year he reduced his HOF peers to just awful shooting in their H2H's. Even as far back as his ROOKIE season. You won't find centers shooting .595 against him in a series, or .630 over the course of ten straight H2H's (and even as high as .677 in 10 straight H2H's), like Hakeem allowed.

Chamberlain was voted First-Team All-Defense in his last two seasons, and had the award existed in the 60's, he likely would have won a couple more ('67 and '68...and he should have won it easily in '69.) In fact, had DPOY's existed in his career, and he would have most likely won several.

And we do KNOW, that Chamberlain has the TWO highest "non-Russell" DWS seasons in NBA history ('64 and '68.)

Shot-blocking? Easily the greatest ever. This is indisputable. Hell, in his LAST season, at age 36, we now know that he averaged 5.42 bpg. Only 12 years later did Eaton set the "official" mark of 5.56. However, the evidence suggests that Wilt had entire SEASONS of 10+ bpg. And Julizaver has compiled Wilt's KNOWN blocks in his post-season. In his 80 known games... 570 blocks, which would STILL be the all-time post-season record...and with Chamberlain playing in another 80 post-season games in which we don't have that block info.

Passing? It amazes me at how his passing is over-looked here. His two best seasons of 7.8 and even 8.6 apg, just BLOWS AWAY any other center who has ever played the game. And he had post-season runs of 6.5 and 9.0 apg, as well. My god, the man LED the league in assists on year. And keep in mind that assists were more difficult to come by in his era.

BTW, and as a side-note...as late as his '69-70 season, he was leading the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg, on a .579 FG%, and with 20.0 rpg, when he blew out his knee. Rookie Kareem would average 28.8 ppg, 14.5 rpg, and shoot .518 in that same season. And by that time, Wilt was terrorizing his opposing centers defensively H2H. I have posted his defensive H2H's from just the season before (68-69), and he reduced his opposing HOF centers to just horrific shooting. Oh, and in that same 68-69 season, Wilt had a RECORDED 23 block game...which is well above the "official" record of 17.

Now that was a COMPLETE center. The greatest scorer, the most efficient scorer from the field, the greatest rebounder, likely the second greatest defender, the greatest shot-blocker, and the greatest passing center in NBA history. IMHO, only an early 70's KAJ would be close.

Sorry but Wilt's functional shooting range was probably 10-12 feet, at most. Hakeem could consistently hit the midrange from 18 feet. Hakeem could also face you up and take you off the dribble like a guard. He also had the best footwork of any big in history. His array of spin moves and shake & bake moves in the post had never been seen before.

Hakeem just did things on the offensive end Wilt could never do. This is a FACT. As a matter of fact, no big had quite the offensive arsenal as Hakeem. He could do everything on the offensive end except shoot the 3. No big had a more complete offensive game.

And Hakeem was great at the other aspects, like D, rebounding, shot blocking, passing, running the floor, etc for me to say he was the most complete.

Let's not confuse greatest offensive peak or greatest peak to most complete. Wilt had the greater peak and offensive peak, but when you break down their games, Hakeem was clearly more complete.

[ImKobe]

:kobe: at this demented Wilt stan making up shit about him having an outside game when he could barely shoot 50% from the FT line.

Hakeem is the most complete center ever and no center to me has a better arsenal than him on the offensive end.

Anyone debating about this needs a slap in the face and a punch in the nuts.

[HomieWeMajor]

When hakeem was beasting in the playoffs was he called 'The Wet Dream' ?

[Fudge]

When hakeem was beasting in the playoffs was he called 'The Wet Dream' ?
http://media.giphy.com/media/DFmPkG5am11M4/giphy.gif

[julizaver]

Hakeem is the most complete center ever and no center to me has a better arsenal than him on the offensive end.


Kareem ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayAz8EpuNUM

[colts19]

Hakeem was without a doubt one of if not the most well round centers ever. I don't really understand why people say he can guard every position 1 to 5. I don't really care if my center can do that. I want my center to be able to guard the other center and be a rim protector. I could care less if he could guard a 1 or a 2. It doesn't make him better than some who can do what a center is suppose to do. It certainly doesn't make him better than a dominate offense center like Wilt or a dominate defense and rebounding center like Wilt or Russell. Or a dominate well rounded great Passing center like Walton. JMHO

[Simple Jack]

My GOAT center. Every other potential GOAT center has a weakness (shaq can't shoot free throws, Wilt has no jumper, Russell has limited offensive moves, KAJ can't beat you off the dribble, etc.) but Hakeem has no weakness offensively and defensively.

I wouldn't characterize a C not being able to beat someone off the dribble as a weakness.

Also, if this is solely the criteria, I suspect you'd have D-Rob ranked possibly over a few of those other guys as well.