Who are the 10 greatest players of the post-Jordan era?

[masonanddixon]

For me it would be"

1. Kobe
2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Dirk
5. lebron
6. Wade
7. Garnett
8. Nash
9. Kidd
10. Ginobli

[SouBeachTalents]

Iverson over Ginobili

[masonanddixon]

Iverson over Ginobili

I feel like Ginobli would've been a better first option plus he's better than Iverson at everything outside of volume scoring.

[KNOW1EDGE]

Iverson or McGrady should replace Ginobili.
Also gotta have Yao on that list.

[nzahir]

For me it would be"

1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Kobe
4. Lebron
5. Wade
6. Kg
7. Kidd
8. Dirk
9. Nash
10. Ai
Agreed

[NLZ]

Solely based on them as "players", not their accomplishments.

1. Kobe
2. Shaq
3. LeBron
4. Duncan
5. Garnett
6. Wade
7. Dirk
8. McGrady
9. Iverson
10. Nash/Kidd/Carter

[SouBeachTalents]

Solely based on them as "players", not their accomplishments.

1. Kobe
2. Shaq
3. LeBron
4. Duncan
5. Garnett
6. Wade
7. Dirk
8. McGrady
9. Iverson
10. Nash/Kidd/Carter

You've got Vince over Durant or CP3?

[CavaliersFTW]

I feel like Ginobli would've been a better first option plus he's better than Iverson at everything outside of volume scoring.
:biggums:

[masonanddixon]

:biggums:

4th quarter time, who would you rather have? Let us be honest here.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe
Shaq
Lebron
Duncan
KG
Dirk
Iverson
Wade
TMac
Nash

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Ginobli with his own team would be a lot like James Harden.

[T_L_P]

1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. LeBron
4. Garnett
5. Kobe
6. Dirk
7. Wade
8. Paul
9. Durant
10. Manu/McGrady

[RoundMoundOfReb]

1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Tim Duncan
3. LeBron "King" James
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Dwyane Wade
8. Kevin Durant
9. Steve Nash
10. Chris Paul

When all is said and done LeBron probably passes Duncan.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bron
Shaq
Timmy
Dirk
Kobe

[SouBeachTalents]

Tier 1- Any order
Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
LeBron

Tier 2- Any order
KG
Dirk
Wade

Tier 3- Any 3 of the following
Kidd
AI
Nash
Durant
Dwight
CP3
McGrady

[Akrazotile]

No order

KG
Duncan
Kidd
Shaq
Dirk
Nash
Bran
Wade
Pau
Paul

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Pau is a good shout. Not top 10 but definitely in the 11-20 range.

[Akrazotile]

Pau is a good shout. Not top 10 but definitely in the 11-20 range.


Yeah, hard to peg him exactly. But being the man on two title teams has to count for something.

[Fire Colangelo]

lol @ people having kobe at #1 when there's 3 other players (Shaq, Duncan, LeBron) that are greater than him in his generation, with one of them being his teammate.

[dubeta]

LeBron James

Shaq

.....

Gap



And then you guys can figure out the rest, no one else really stands out

[Heavincent]

Timmy D
Kobe Bryan
Bran Jame
Shack
Dirkules

[JT123]

LeBron James

Shaq

.....

Gap



And then you guys can figure out the rest, no one else really stands out
This

[JohnFreeman]

Duncan
Shaq
LeBron

rest

[Cold soul]

1. Kobe
2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Lebron
5. Garnett
6. Dirk
7. Wade
8. Durant
9. Kidd
10. AI

[RightTwoCensor]

I feel like Ginobli would've been a better first option plus he's better than Iverson at everything outside of volume scoring.
Ginobili wouldn't be as good as Harden. Never was durable or conditioned enough to play 40 minutes

[Prime_Shaq]

1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. LeBron
4. Kobe
5. Dirk
6. Garnett
7. Wade
8. Kidd
9. T-Mac
10. Nash

[fiddy]

No order

KG
Duncan
Kidd
Shaq
Dirk
Nash
Bran
Wade
Pau
Paul
Kobe living rent free in Akrazotile's head.

[AirFederer]

Duncan
Shaq
Lebron
Kobe
Wade
Dirk
Garnett
Pierce
Kidd
Ginobili

[24-Inch_Chrome]

1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. LeBron
4. Garnett
5. Kobe
6. Dirk
7. Wade
8. Paul
9. Durant
10. Manu/McGrady

I might put Nash in at 10 (largely due to personal bias) but apart from that it looks good.

:applause:

[dynasty1978]

1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Kobe
4. Lebron
5. Dirk
6. KG
7. Wade
8. Pierce
9. Kidd
10. Nash/Iverson (can't decide)

[kells333]

It looks like everyone can agree that
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Kg
Dirk

Are all locks. Then

Nash
Ai
Tmac
Wade
Vince
Manu
Durant
Chris paul
Jadon kidd

Are battling for the last 4.

Personally id pick

Ai
Durant
Tmac
Wade

Since theyre the only ones who had an arguement for best player in the league at some point

[pastis]

1. shaq
2. duncan
3. lebron james
4. dirk
5. KD
6. Kobe
7. Wade
8. KG
9. pierce
10. paul

[sd3035]

Kobe, Shaq, Duncan

The rest


Anyone who says otherwise is either trolling, or stupid

[T_L_P]

I might put Nash in at 10 (largely due to personal bias) but apart from that it looks good.

:applause:

:cheers:

Nash or T-Mac is hard.

02-03 T-Mac was just so dominant; Nash had a good 4 year run of sustained excellence.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

:cheers:

Nash or T-Mac is hard.

02-03 T-Mac was just so dominant; Nash had a good 4 year run of sustained excellence.

I can definitely understand someone taking T-Mac over Nash, the lower the spot on the list the tougher it is to decisively fill.

I just remember constantly being in awe of Nash's passing skills in a way I never really was of another player's game; it's stuck with me.

[SugarHill]

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
LeBron
T-Mac
Dirk
Durant
Garnett
Dwight
Paul

purely as players in their peak forms and not in order

[Dragic4Life]

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
LeBron
T-Mac
Dirk
Durant
Garnett
Dwight
Paul

purely as players in their peak forms and not in order
"not in order"...:rolleyes:

get Kobe off the top boy.

[SugarHill]

"not in order"...:rolleyes:

get Kobe off the top boy.

My mind decided Kobe started off the list. u mad Kobe is amazing?

[riseagainst]

"not in order"...:rolleyes:

get Kobe off the top boy.

dat insecurity doe.

:roll:
:roll:

[Papaya Petee]

Shaq
Duncan
LeBron
Kobe
Wade
Dirk
KG
Durant
Pierce
McGrady

[Young X]

Don't understand how T-Mac is above Durant or CP3. Both have longer primes, made more All NBA 1st teams, and have more team success. Durant already passed T-Mac when he won MVP last year.

Bron
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
KG
Wade
Dirk
Durant
Nash

CP3/Iverson/Dwight/Pierce
Kidd/Vince/T-Mac

Curry will be here somewhere if he wins MVP this year.

[ShawkFactory]

1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Shaquille
4. Lebron
5. Wade
6. Dirk
7. KG
8. Kidd
9. Durant
10. Iverson

[greatest-ever]

By Career currently:

Duncan
Shaq
Lebron
Kobe
KG
Dirk
Wade
Nash
Kidd
KD

HM: Pierce, Ai, Ray allen

KD's lack of longevity is why he isn't higher up.

[greatest-ever]

Anyone taking Iverson before Wade shouldn't be allowed to talk Basketball.

[dubeta]

I wouldn't put Wade as one of the 10

[greatest-ever]

1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Tim Duncan
3. LeBron "King" James
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Dwyane Wade
8. Kevin Durant
9. Steve Nash
10. Chris Paul

When all is said and done LeBron probably passes Duncan.
Your list is pretty reasonably compared to these other crap list being thrown together. The only one i would really question is KD over Nash, i know KD is the better player but his longevity is too weak to be ahead of Nash imo. Our 3-7 is ordered the same.

[Alan Ogg]

Shaq
Duncan
LeBron
Kobe
Dirk
Garnett
Wade
Durant
CP3
Undecided

[Smoke117]

1. Shaquille O'neal
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Lebron James
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Jason Kidd
9. Dwight Howard
10. Chris Paul

[greatest-ever]

I wouldn't put Wade as one of the 10
Lol let me guess you have Kobe as your # 1?

But no, of course you wouldn't have Wade in the top 10 if you are biased.

3 time champ
FMVP (top 5-10 finals performance ever)
11 time all star
8 all NBA selections 2 were 1st team
3 all defensive 2nd team selections

Known for dicing up the elite defenses in the playoffs (Boston and Detroit)

All time peak 30.2 ppg 5 rpg 7.5 assist on .574 ts% 30.4 PER, with a top 3 vote in defensive player of the year award

Get educated man. Easily top 10 post MJ, deal with it.

[dubeta]

Lol let me guess you have Kobe as your # 1?

But no, of course you wouldn't have Wade in the top 10 if you are biased.

3 time champ
FMVP (top 5-10 finals performance ever)
11 time all star
8 all NBA selections 2 were 1st team
3 all defensive 2nd team selections

Known for dicing up the elite defenses in the playoffs (Boston and Detroit)

All time peak 30.2 ppg 5 rpg 7.5 assist on .574 ts% 30.4 PER, with a top 3 vote in defensive player of the year award

Get educated man. Easily top 10 post MJ, deal with it.

He's not in my 10 either :hammerhead:

[ArbitraryWater]

1. Shaquille O'neal
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Lebron James
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Jason Kidd
9. Dwight Howard
10. Chris Paul

Wow.. so your all-time list goes something like:

Shaq/Duncan top 10, KG/LeBron top 15, Kobe top 20, Wade/Dirk top 25?

Not hating.. hell, I could see arguments for any of this except KG > LBJ.

Where does D-Rob fit in (know your a huge fan of his)?

[SwayDizzle]

tier 1:
Kobe
Tier 2:
Shaq, Duncan, LeBJ
Tier 3:
Dirk, Garnett, Wade, Durant
Tier 4:
Nash, Iverson

[ShawkFactory]

tier 1:
Kobe
Tier 2:
Shaq, Duncan, LeBJ
Tier 3:
Dirk, Garnett, Wade, Durant
Tier 4:
Nash, Iverson
Psshhhhhh

[Smoke117]

Wow.. so your all-time list goes something like:

Shaq/Duncan top 10, KG/LeBron top 15, Kobe top 20, Wade/Dirk top 25?

Not hating.. hell, I could see arguments for any of this except KG > LBJ.

Where does D-Rob fit in (know your a huge fan of his)?

I'm looking at it as a whole. Kevin Garnett just has the longevity. The fact of the matter is there is really not that much that separates Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett besides winning which is a team stat. (I saw someone place them on different tiers...laughable) I frankly put Garnett 3rd over James because of the longevity right now and it made me uncomfortable to put him between Duncan and Garnett. James will be above everyone on this by the end, so it really doesn't matter how I list it at this particular time. I do think Jason Kidd has become massively underrated though...so few people have him on their top 10 greatest players since Jordan retired.

[tpols]

Kobe
Shaq
Garnett
Dirk
Wade
ray ray
Manu
Lebron
Duncan
Parker

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm looking at it as a whole. Kevin Garnett just has the longevity. The fact of the matter is there is really not that much that separates Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett besides winning which is a team stat. (I saw someone place them on different tiers...laughable) I frankly put Garnett 3rd over James because of the longevity right now and it made me uncomfortable to put him between Duncan and Garnett. James will be above everyone on this by the end, so it really doesn't matter how I list it at this particular time. I do think Jason Kidd has become massively underrated though...so few people have him on their top 10 greatest players since Jordan retired.

KG's defense was still so good that he had better Impact stats than Kobe in 2011 and 2012 I believe? A good portion at RealGM held him as superior in those years.

[SugarHill]

I feel like people really underrate Dwight Howard.

[mehyaM24]

shaq
lebron
garnett
duncan
kobe
dirk
durant
wade
paul
nash

[Prime_Shaq]

KG's defense was still so good that he had better Impact stats than Kobe in 2011 and 2012 I believe? A good portion at RealGM held him as superior in those years.
KG is pretty underrated on this board IMO, probably because kids just remember his Celtic days :lol

[Prime_Shaq]

I feel like people really underrate Dwight Howard.
How so? He was a really good defensive anchor.. nothing more

[SugarHill]

How so? He was a really good defensive anchor.. nothing more
2009-2011 Howard is a top 3 player today. That's more than being a really good defensive anchor

5x first team
3x DPotY
4x defensive first team

He has a case for top 10

[Smoke117]

How so? He was a really good defensive anchor.. nothing more

Ben Wallace was a defensive anchor; Dikembe Mutombo was a defensive anchor. Did they also average 20ppg four times while peaking at 23ppg? If not for the back there would be even more. In other words, you have no idea what you are blabbering on about.

[Prime_Shaq]

Ben Wallace was a defensive anchor; Dikembe Mutombo was a defensive anchor. Did they also average 20ppg four times while peaking at 23ppg? If not for the back there would be even more. In other words, you have no idea what you are blabbering on about.
Only because of the weak competition at the Center position. An ancient Shaq was still bullying Howard around in the post in 2010.

[ArbitraryWater]

Only because of the weak competition at the Center position. An ancient Shaq was still bullying Howard around in the post in 2010.

https://stoopidhousewives.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/dr-evil-sarcastic-right-in-austin-powers-gifs.gif

[Prime_Shaq]

https://stoopidhousewives.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/dr-evil-sarcastic-right-in-austin-powers-gifs.gif
Who was Howard's main competitor at the Center position. Before you guys claim that I'm a Howard hater, I've always respected his defensive capabilities but feels he lacked the ability to be the main man. At his peak he shouldve been feasting on the league's frontlines. The only 2 playoffs series I remember him truly stepping up as the man was 2009 against the Cavs and last year against Portland.

[Smoke117]

Only because of the weak competition at the Center position. An ancient Shaq was still bullying Howard around in the post in 2010.

You realize Shaq became the "MDE" during an extremely pathetic period for centers right? The one rival he actually had left went down because of his kidney. Your argument is hilarious since Shaq had no significant centers to deal with for the most part in the 2000s. ( besides Yao) Honestly where do people get that the Center position was bursting with talent all over the place anyway throughout the leagues history? The mid to late 80s to late 90s was a golden period for the position...it wasn't the norm.

[Prime_Shaq]

You realize Shaq became the "MDE" during an extremely pathetic period for centers right? The one rival he actually had left went down because of his kidney. Your argument is hilarious since Shaq had no significant centers to deal with for the most part in the 2000s. ( besides Yao and Dwight) Honestly where do people get that the Center position was bursting with talent all over the place anyway throughout the leagues history? The mid to late 80s to late 90s was a golden period for the position...it wasn't the norm.
How does that excuse Howard from getting held down by an old man Shaq?

[greatest-ever]

I feel like people really underrate Dwight Howard.
He's a good candidate for sure, but it's hard to argue him over KD and Kidd.

[SHAQisGOAT]

1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3./4. LeBron/Kobe
5. KG
6. Wade
7. Dirk

Then it gets tricky but I'd probably say Durant, Nash and AI.

[RightTwoCensor]

Dwight in his peak was better than Allen Iverson's peak season.

Both lost in the NBA Finals.

Dwight has 3 DPOY to Iverson's 1 MVP.

[Cold soul]

Lol people having Kobe 4th or 5th at worst he's 3rd.

[ShawkFactory]

Lol people having Kobe 4th or 5th at worst he's 3rd.
Eh. You could make an argument for Lebron if you're doing it based on projection.

[NLZ]

You've got Vince over Durant or CP3?

True, add Durant. People putting like Pierce/Allen/CP3 over Vince honestly must have veryyyyyy short term memory. Pierce was nowhere near Carter all-time before Garnett joined Celtics.

[Cold soul]

Eh. You could make an argument for Lebron if you're doing it based on projection.

Nah, not yet Lebron more than likely will surpass Kobe in time but he hadn't yet. Kobe ahead on accomplishments but not by a lot.

[SugarHill]

True, add Durant. People putting like Pierce/Allen/CP3 over Vince honestly must have veryyyyyy short term memory. Pierce was nowhere near Carter all-time before Garnett joined Celtics.

Celtics big 3 era did a lot for their career as it should but I don't really see the argument Carter has over Pierce or Ray.

[Cold soul]

I wish we had KG, Duncan, Wade, Kobe, and Dirk all in their prime the league would be so much better so many great matchups especially in the playoffs.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I wish we had KG, Duncan, Wade, Kobe, and Dirk all in their prime the league would be so much better so many great matchups especially in the playoffs.

so you wants 01-09 back?

[Cold soul]

so you wants 01-09 back?

Yes, my favorite era of basketball today's NBA is kinda meh to me not big fan of today's star players other than Westbrook and Davis. I just don't have same excitement or get amped up for NBA other than playoffs and Finals. 90's and 2000's era is my personal favorite. I think NBA popularity wise has fallen off lately especially in North America.

[Soundwave]

1. Shaq
2. Kobe
3. Duncan
4. LeBron
5. Wade
6. Dirk
7. KG
8. Durant
9. Iverson
10. T-Mac/Nash

If LeBron wins more titles then I'd move him up but with only 2 right now I don't think it's fair to rank him over the three guys currently above him who all have 4 or 5 titles.

[Cold soul]

1. Shaq
2. Kobe
3. Duncan
4. LeBron
5. Wade
6. Dirk
7. KG
8. Durant
9. Iverson
10. T-Mac/Nash

If LeBron wins more titles then I'd move him up but with only 2 right now I don't think it's fair to rank him over the three guys currently above him who all have 4 or 5 titles.

Great post. I agree 100% Shaq is greatest individual player since MJ. Shaq had best chance to be the GOAT if it wasn't for being lazy and being out of shape all the time especially heading into training camp, he would show up and dominate everyone pretty crazy if you think about it.

[miles berg]

1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. LeBron
4. Kobe
5. Dirk
6. KG
7. Wade
8. Durant
9. Kidd
10. Nash

[GoSpursGo1984]

Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Dirk
Wade
Garnett
Nash
Iverson
Pierce

[Prime_Shaq]

Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Dirk
Wade
Garnett
Nash
Iverson
Pierce
Kidd?

[GoSpursGo1984]

Kidd?

You are right totally forgot him would put him instead of Pierce

[DMAVS41]

1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. LeBron
4. Dirk
5. Kobe
6. KG
7. Wade
8. Durant
9. CP3
10. Pau/Kidd/Pierce/Nash/T-Mac...on and on...no idea how to pick one.

[Smoke117]

1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. LeBron
4. Dirk
5. Kobe
6. KG
7. Wade
8. Durant
9. CP3
10. Pau

Durant and Pau above Jason Kidd? Wow.

[DMAVS41]

Durant and Pau above Jason Kidd? Wow.

See my full post.

And absolutely Durant above Kidd...not even a question.

[Smoke117]

See my full post.

And absolutely Durant above Kidd...not even a question.

Jason Kidd has accomplished much more than Durant. That's not even a question.

[DMAVS41]

Jason Kidd has accomplished much more than Durant. That's not even a question.

Well, depends what you value. And the simple fact that Durant is a by far better basketball player kind of makes it easy.

[BigBoss]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-19-2015/0yCdWg.gif

[Smoke117]

Well, depends what you value. And the simple fact that Durant is a by far better basketball player kind of makes it easy.

Far better in your opinion anyway. You obviously don't hold Jason Kidd in that high regard. He's one of the 2 or 3 best all around pg's and the greatest defensive pg ever, period. He became criminally underrated once he left his prime.

[SouBeachTalents]

Far better in your opinion anyway. You obviously don't hold Jason Kidd in that high regard. He's one of the 2 or 3 best all around pg's and the greatest defensive pg ever, period. He became criminally underrated once he left his prime.

You got him over Payton and Frazier?

[DMAVS41]

Far better in your opinion anyway. You obviously don't hold Jason Kidd in that high regard. He's one of the 2 or 3 best all around pg's and the greatest defensive pg ever, period. He's become criminally underrated since he left his prime.

I do hold him in high regard...and I agree he can be very underrated, but we also have to be honest and just admit that KD is simply a better basketball player. Yea, I guess that is my opinion, but honestly that should be a pretty accepted basketball fact here.

I know Kidd was great, but Durant has a legit case as best player in the game over guys like Lebron and AD when he's right. No version of Kidd would ever make you think you'd rather have him on your team than peak/prime Lebron.

Even when Kidd was barely losing MVP to Duncan...nobody really thought he was better than guys like KG, Dirk, Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe.

I think that is worth noting.

[Cold soul]

1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. LeBron
4. Dirk
5. Kobe
6. KG
7. Wade
8. Durant
9. CP3
10. Pau/Kidd/Pierce/Nash/T-Mac...on and on...no idea how to pick one.

Meh this list isn't very accurate. You have Dirk way too high.

[Smoke117]

I do hold him in high regard...and I agree he can be very underrated, but we also have to be honest and just admit that KD is simply a better basketball player. Yea, I guess that is my opinion, but honestly that should be a pretty accepted basketball fact here.

I know Kidd was great, but Durant has a legit case as best player in the game over guys like Lebron and AD when he's right. No version of Kidd would ever make you think you'd rather have him on your team than peak/prime Lebron.

Even when Kidd was barely losing MVP to Duncan...nobody really thought he was better than guys like KG, Dirk, Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe.

I think that is worth noting.

I don't think it's as easy as saying you take Durant over Jason Kidd no matter what. The skill sets are too different. My main problem is the longevity...yes objectively Durant is better, but greatness is measuring you on what you have done and Jason Kidd has just done a lot more as of now. If the question was who is better than I would take Durant too most likely, but I equate greatness to what you have accomplished and Kidd has just accomplished a lot more as of now.


You got him over Payton and Frazier?

Absolutely. They were better one on one, but no one comes close to Jason Kidd at the pg position as far as team/help defense. He was in a league of his own at the position.

[dubeta]

Can't believe people believe Durant is FAR better than Kidd. I have durant as better but its damn arguable

Scoring? Durant

Passing? Kidd by FAR

Rebounding? Kidd by a decent amount

Defense? Kidd by a considerable amount

And then theres the intangibles like leadership, playing in big games, and controlling a teams offense can you can't quantify but has a clear impact in your teams success.

[kennethgriffin]

just going by all time rankings


#1 kobe bryant ( top 5-6 all time )
#2 tim duncan ( top 6-7 all time )
#3 shaquille oneal ( top 8-9 all time )
#4 lebron james ( top 10-11 all time )
#5 kevin garnett ( top 19-20 all time )
#6 dirk nowitzki ( top 22-23 all time )
#7 dwyane wade ( top 24-25 all time )
#8 Kevin Durant ( top 39-40 all time )
#9 Steve Nash ( top 40-41 all time )
#10 allen iverson ( top 42-43 all time )

[DMAVS41]

I don't think it's as easy as saying you take Durant over Jason Kidd no matter what. The skill sets are too different. My main problem is the longevity...yes objectively Durant is better, but greatness is measuring you on what you have done and Jason Kidd has just done a lot more as of now. If the question was who is better than I would take Durant too most likely, but I equate greatness to what you have accomplished and Kidd has just accomplished a lot more as of now.



Absolutely.

Fair enough.

I guess when a guy is a 27/7/4 60% TS player over 8 years....that is enough time for me to say I've seen enough to put him over a guy like Kidd.

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Kidd
Dirk
Wade
Garnett
Durant
Paul
Pierce

[Smoke117]

Fair enough.

I guess when a guy is a 27/7/4 60% TS player over 8 years....that is enough time for me to say I've seen enough to put him over a guy like Kidd.

It's all good. If we agreed on everything here we'd have nothing to discuss.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Kidd
Dirk
Wade
Garnett
Durant
Paul
Pierce

:roll:

[Beastmode88]

just going by all time rankings


#1 kobe bryant ( top 5-6 all time )
#2 tim duncan ( top 6-7 all time )
#3 shaquille oneal ( top 8-9 all time )
#4 lebron james ( top 10-11 all time )
#5 kevin garnett ( top 19-20 all time )
#6 dirk nowitzki ( top 22-23 all time )
#7 dwyane wade ( top 24-25 all time )
#8 Kevin Durant ( top 39-40 all time )
#9 Steve Nash ( top 40-41 all time )
#10 allen iverson ( top 42-43 all time )

If duncan wins another ring before he retires is he above kobe?

[raiderfan19]

There is no right answer to this and I do enjoy the tiers thing so Ill say do it that way.

Tier 1-Guaranteed you 50 wins in their prime, won multiple titles as the best player on their team, all time greats
Shaq
Lebron
Duncan

Tier 2-All time greats with ridiculous longevity but not quite at those top 3s level.

Kobe
Dirk
KG

Tier 3-Not Quite enough to be in either of the above categories but something special.

Wade
Nash(Had a 10 year run from 02-11 where he avged 17/10/3 on 50/44/91 and despite a few knocks on his durability played 783 games in that period)
Kidd
Durant(say what you want about him not having been around long enough, hes been a monster)

As for just ranking them in order with no tiers, shaq and lebron are the only 2 people who have been the unquestioned best players in the league at any time since jordan.(You could still argue Shaq in 02/03 when duncan was winning his mvps and you could always argue lebron over anyone else after 05) so to me they have to be top 2. Then I would just follow everyone else down the list.

I know alot of Kobe fans will see this as a slight to him(and I think he is clearly number 1 out of my second tier) but hed be the only one on tier 1 who his absolute best didnt automatically make you a contender. And before you point out how terrible those mid 00s lakers were go look at some of the cleveland teams lebron dragged to 50 wins.

[SouBeachTalents]

There is no right answer to this and I do enjoy the tiers thing so Ill say do it that way.

Tier 1-Guaranteed you 50 wins in their prime, won multiple titles as the best player on their team, all time greats
Shaq
Lebron
Duncan

Tier 2-All time greats with ridiculous longevity but not quite at those top 3s level.

Kobe
Dirk
KG

Tier 3-Not Quite enough to be in either of the above categories but something special.

Wade
Nash(Had a 10 year run from 02-11 where he avged 17/10/3 on 50/44/91 and despite a few knocks on his durability played 783 games in that period)
Kidd
Durant(say what you want about him not having been around long enough, hes been a monster)

As for just ranking them in order with no tiers, shaq and lebron are the only 2 people who have been the unquestioned best players in the league at any time since jordan.(You could still argue Shaq in 02/03 when duncan was winning his mvps and you could always argue lebron over anyone else after 05) so to me they have to be top 2. Then I would just follow everyone else down the list.

I know alot of Kobe fans will see this as a slight to him(and I think he is clearly number 1 out of my second tier) but hed be the only one on tier 1 who his absolute best didnt automatically make you a contender. And before you point out how terrible those mid 00s lakers were go look at some of the cleveland teams lebron dragged to 50 wins.

Obviously entitled to your opinion, just not sure how you don't have Kobe in tier 1 or Wade in tier 2. Also, how isn't Duncan the unquestioned best player in '03?

[JT123]

Obviously entitled to your opinion, just not sure how you don't have Kobe in tier 1 or Wade in tier 2. Also, how isn't Duncan the unquestioned best player in '03?
:facepalm Did you read his post? He said guys guaranteed to get you at least 50 wins while in their prime. Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime. :lol

[raiderfan19]

Obviously entitled to your opinion, just not sure how you don't have Kobe in tier 1 or Wade in tier 2. Also, how isn't Duncan the unquestioned best player in '03?
Shaq avged 27.5/11.1/3/3 on 57% shooting and had won the three previous titles. Duncan avged 23/13/4/3 on 51% shooting and did win that title but only after dirk got hurt after the mavs beat the kings after webber got hurt and shaq played him even in their playoff series. Can you make an argument duncan was the best player? Sure. Id even go so far as to say id probably agree. But you could also make a damn compelling argument for shaq.

[raiderfan19]

As for why wade isnt in tier 2, he just wasnt great for very long. He was really only a superstar for 7 years(and thats if you include his second year which is kinda pushing superstar status but id give it to him) and even in that 7 year window he still missed 80 games which is basically a season.

[Cold soul]

There is no right answer to this and I do enjoy the tiers thing so Ill say do it that way.

Tier 1-Guaranteed you 50 wins in their prime, won multiple titles as the best player on their team, all time greats
Shaq
Lebron
Duncan

Tier 2-All time greats with ridiculous longevity but not quite at those top 3s level.

Kobe
Dirk
KG

Tier 3-Not Quite enough to be in either of the above categories but something special.

Wade
Nash(Had a 10 year run from 02-11 where he avged 17/10/3 on 50/44/91 and despite a few knocks on his durability played 783 games in that period)
Kidd
Durant(say what you want about him not having been around long enough, hes been a monster)

As for just ranking them in order with no tiers, shaq and lebron are the only 2 people who have been the unquestioned best players in the league at any time since jordan.(You could still argue Shaq in 02/03 when duncan was winning his mvps and you could always argue lebron over anyone else after 05) so to me they have to be top 2. Then I would just follow everyone else down the list.

I know alot of Kobe fans will see this as a slight to him(and I think he is clearly number 1 out of my second tier) but hed be the only one on tier 1 who his absolute best didnt automatically make you a contender. And before you point out how terrible those mid 00s lakers were go look at some of the cleveland teams lebron dragged to 50 wins.

Kobe at his best was on same level as Duncan and Lebron but not Shaq. I think people quickly forget how great he was and damage he did in tough western conference unlike Lebron who got 50 wins in weak East. Kobe won multiple rings as the main man and had three year run as league best player among other great years you could argue he was best player in the league. Kobe tier 1 player you see lot of all-time greats speak so highly of him compared to fans that use stats and field goal percentage for everything when comes to judging players. Kobe is one of three most talented players I have ever seen play the game and have been big NBA fan since 93 season.

[raiderfan19]

Kobe at his best was on same level as Duncan and Lebron but not Shaq. I think people quickly forget how great he was and damage he did in tough western conference unlike Lebron who got 50 wins in weak East. Kobe won multiple rings as the main man and had three year run as league best player among other great years you could argue he was best player in the league. Kobe tier 1 player you see lot of greats speak high of him compared to fans that use stars and field goal percentage for everything when comes to judging players.
When can you say that kobe was unquestionably the best player in the league?

I honestly thought about giving him his own tier but decided against it. To me he just fits better in that second tier than the first. There are basically no valid criticisms of the top 3.(Yes I know Shaqs ft shooting sucked, but i also know he was as dominant as anyone Ive ever seen) There are valid knocks on kobe. That takes him out of that top tier for me.

[Cold soul]

When can you say that kobe was unquestionably the best player in the league?

I honestly thought about giving him his own tier but decided against it. To me he just fits better in that second tier than the first. There are basically no valid criticisms of the top 3.(Yes I know Shaqs ft shooting sucked, but i also know he was as dominant as anyone Ive ever seen) There are valid knocks on kobe. That takes him out of that top tier for me.

2006, 2007, 2008 Kobe to me was best player in the league. Well even your top tier have weaknesses like all players their no perfect player that has ever played all have faults. Shaq ft shooting and being bad shooter in general, Lebron front runner too passive at the end of games, lacks those intangibles of past greats, not strong mentally, historically average Finals performer his career a lot like Wilt. Duncan not highest of highs or most dominate player, but crazy constantly year in and out hasn't been Spurs best player since 2007 arguably. He gets biggest pass of any player in last decade Duncan can at times be high end role player and nobody cares or 3rd option.

[T_L_P]

Shaq avged 27.5/11.1/3/3 on 57% shooting and had won the three previous titles. Duncan avged 23/13/4/3 on 51% shooting and did win that title but only after dirk got hurt after the mavs beat the kings after webber got hurt and shaq played him even in their playoff series. Can you make an argument duncan was the best player? Sure. Id even go so far as to say id probably agree. But you could also make a damn compelling argument for shaq.

I enjoyed your post and agree with the majority of it, but SouthBeach is right...Shaq doesn't have much of an argument. Just watch some of Duncan's 03 Playoff games to see why Shaq couldn't match up to him: vastly superior defense, passing, intangibles...Duncan put up those crazy numbers on a team that scored something like 93 PPG, so they don't reflect his overall impact at all. Just look at the advanced numbers of that run:

Most WinShares ever in a postseason
3rd highest WS/48 for a title run (behind 91 and 96 Jordan)
2nd highest Box +/- for a title run (behind 91 Jordan)

The Spurs had an ORtg of 105 with Duncan on the court and a DRtg of 95.

With him off the court the Spurs had a 90 ORtg and a 105 DRtg. The team play was pretty pathetic outside of him carrying them.

[raiderfan19]

You dont have to sell me on the passes duncan gets but the dude has probably won more games than any nba player ever(maybe kareem or parrish has won more but i dont feel like looking it up) Hes absolutely clearly in that top tier.

Kobe certainly has his share of shaky big moments so you obviously cant hold that against lebron as a way to prop up kobe. The thing is other than ball handling amd ft shooting there really isnt anything you can say kobe was better at than lebron on a basketball court and that makes it hard to say he was as good of a player. I know all the kobe fans will say shooting(and as a matter of pure talent im not sure i disagree but thats made up for by lebrons ability to get better shots which is reflected in their shooting %s)

as for that 3 year run kobe avged 32/6/5 on 46% Lebron avged 30/7/7/ on 48% over the same time period on 1.5 less fga per game. Lebron even then was a much better defender, a better passer, a better rebounder and a more effecient scorer. The cavs also went to the second round twice and the finals once(losing). The lakers lost in the first round twice and went to the finals once(losing). You want to make an argument for kobe one two or all of those years fine. Its certainly an argument you can make. But it damn sure isnt unquestioned. Hell you can argue dirk over both in 2006. The only clear cut best players weve had since jordan were 3 peat shaq and back to back champ lebron. Thats it. There's always been a valid argument for someone else every other year.

[raiderfan19]

I enjoyed your post and agree with the majority of it, but SouthBeach is right...Shaq doesn't have much of an argument. Just watch some of Duncan's 03 Playoff games to see why Shaq couldn't match up to him: vastly superior defense, passing, intangibles...Duncan put up those crazy numbers on a team that scored something like 93 PPG, so they don't reflect his overall impact at all. Just look at the advanced numbers of that run:

Most WinShares ever in a postseason
3rd highest WS/48 for a title run (behind 91 and 96 Jordan)
2nd highest Box +/- for a title run (behind 91 Jordan)

The Spurs had an ORtg of 105 with Duncan on the court and a DRtg of 95.

With him off the court the Spurs had a 90 ORtg and a 105 DRtg. The team play was pretty pathetic outside of him carrying them.
They were pretty even in the series against each other. Like i said its by no means a crazy argument to say Duncan was the best. And you obviously couldnt say shaq was the unquestioned best then either. But you could say he was earlier in the 00s. I just think duncan gets lost in that shuffle between the shaq dominance and lebron dominance where he was really great for a really long time but never had one season where you could just say, yeah that guy was the absolute best this season and no one could ever argue it.

[T_L_P]

2006, 2007, 2008 Kobe to me was best player in the league. Well even your top tier have weaknesses like all players their no perfect player that has ever played all have faults. Shaq ft shooting and being bad shooter in general, Lebron front runner too passive at the end of games, lacks those intangibles of past greats, not strong mentally, historically average Finals performer his career a lot like Wilt. Duncan not highest of highs or most dominate player, but crazy constantly year in and out hasn't been Spurs best player since 2007 arguably. He gets biggest pass of any player in last decade Duncan can at times be high end role player and nobody cares or 3rd option.

The guy has been averaging 15/10/3/2 (with DPOY-level defense) since 2013, which is ages 37-39. Kareem won 3 titles from those ages averaging 19/6/3 (with mediocre defense at best).

It's what happens when you get old. This isn't peak Duncan putting up a 15/10. It's a guy who should either be playing 20 MPG and averaging a 5/5 (Hakeem, Robinson, Garnett, Shaq) or retired (Magic, Bird, Jordan, Wilt, Russell). :confusedshrug:

[20Four]

This
Why do you keep talking to yourself you fvcking idiot?

[dubeta]

LOL @ Duncan being better than Shaq

Better than Tony Parker in 2003? Arguable

[Cold soul]

:rolleyes:
The guy has been averaging 15/10/3/2 (with DPOY-level defense) since 2013, which is ages 37-39. Kareem won 3 titles from those ages averaging 19/6/3 (with mediocre defense at best).

It's what happens when you get old. This isn't peak Duncan putting up a 15/10. It's a guy who should either be playing 20 MPG and averaging a 5/5 (Hakeem, Robinson, Garnett, Shaq) or retired (Magic, Bird, Jordan, Wilt, Russell). :confusedshrug:

What about 2011 season Duncan looked close to done as many said that season. Duncan has picked up his overall play since 2013.

[T_L_P]

They were pretty even in the series against each other. Like i said its by no means a crazy argument to say Duncan was the best. And you obviously couldnt say shaq was the unquestioned best then either. But you could say he was earlier in the 00s. I just think duncan gets lost in that shuffle between the shaq dominance and lebron dominance where he was really great for a really long time but never had one season where you could just say, yeah that guy was the absolute best this season and no one could ever argue it.

2003, when he won MVP and Finals MVP, had one of the 5 greatest Playoff runs in NBA history, played historically great defense and posted historically great advanced stats and Net Ratings, won a title with one of the weakest casts in NBA history, and did it while actively seeking out teammates to give them touches instead of fluffing up his own stats.

If defense means anything, Shaq doesn't match 03 Duncan. He played some of the strongest defense ever and Shaq was...solid. :confusedshrug:

Shaq was still great and all...dominate quite often. But the transformative effect Duncan's two-way play had is pretty hard to overcome. Only peak Hakeem eve played as well on both ends.

[raiderfan19]

The guy has been averaging 15/10/3/2 (with DPOY-level defense) since 2013, which is ages 37-39. Kareem won 3 titles from those ages averaging 19/6/3 (with mediocre defense at best).

It's what happens when you get old. This isn't peak Duncan putting up a 15/10. It's a guy who should either be playing 20 MPG and averaging a 5/5 (Hakeem, Robinson, Garnett, Shaq) or retired (Magic, Bird, Jordan, Wilt, Russell). :confusedshrug:
As a mavs fan who generally hates the spurs(Sorry i just hate them) What duncan has done for so long really is impressive. It will be a sad day for the league when he hangs them up. Hes still one of the 20 or so best/most impactful players in the game right now.

[SouBeachTalents]

LOL @ Duncan being better than Shaq

Better than Tony Parker in 2003? Arguable

Parker being better than Duncan in '03 is like LeBron being better than Wade in the 2011 Finals

[T_L_P]

:rolleyes:

What about 2011 season Duncan looked close to done as many said that season. Duncan has picked up his overall play since 2013.

A lot of people get on Duncan for that, including me. He was a trainwreck in the Playoffs and he did look done.

That said, he was still very good in the Regular Season, especially on defense. He just wasn't playing big minutes because of his chronic knee issues.

But like I said, people frequently bring up 2011 when talking about Duncan, imo.

[dubeta]

Parker being better than Duncan in '03 is like LeBron being better than Wade in the 2011 Finals

So Parker was better than Duncan in 2003? Agreed.

[raiderfan19]

2003, when he won MVP and Finals MVP, had one of the 5 greatest Playoff runs in NBA history, played historically great defense and posted historically great advanced stats and Net Ratings, won a title with one of the weakest casts in NBA history, and did it while actively seeking out teammates to give them touches instead of fluffing up his own stats.

If defense means anything, Shaq doesn't match 03 Duncan. He played some of the strongest defense ever and Shaq was...solid.
I have no issue conceding this point. It doesnt really change anything about my post. Hes still in the top tier but hes still behind the other 2 for me. Though I dont concede that 25/15/5/3 is one of the top 5 playoff runs in history. Certainly impressive but top 5 in history??? And while he wasnt what he once was it certainly helped the D to have Robinson as another big along with an elite perimeter defender in bowen and no real defensive weaknesses other than parker.

[pauk]

The best individual basketball players/talents ive seen after Jordan retired:

1. LeBron James
1. Shaquille O'Neal
(cant decide)

3. Kobe Bryant
4. Kevin Durant
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Tim Duncan
7. Tracy McGrady
8. Dwyane Wade
9. Allen Iverson
10. Chris Paul

But in terms of all-time rankings i guess its something like:

1. Shaquille O'Neal (top 5-7)
2. Tim Duncan (top 5-7)
3. LeBron James (top 7-9)
4. Kobe Bryant (top 7-9)
5. Dirk Nowitzki (top 17-22)
6. Kevin Garnett (top 17-22)
7. Dwyane Wade (top 24-29)
8. Steve Nash (top 35-45)
9. Allen Iverson (top 35-45)
10. Kevin Durant (top 35-45)

So all in all, Shaq i think is the greatest player post-Jordan.

[raiderfan19]

as far as just talent, chris webber belongs on that list. Nowhere near it as a player but just a ridiculously talented player.

[pauk]

as far as just talent, chris webber belongs on that list. Nowhere near it as a player but just a ridiculously talented player.

True, you can argue that.

[BlakFrankWhite]

1.Tim Duncan
2.Shaq
3.LeBron(definetly the best indiviual player since MJ)
4.Kobe
5.Nowitzki
6.D-Wade
7.Iverson
8.Garnett
9.Durant
10.Nash

[Prime_Shaq]

1.Tim Duncan
2.Shaq
3.LeBron(definetly the best indiviual player since MJ)
4.Kobe
5.Nowitzki
6.D-Wade
7.Iverson
8.Garnett
9.Durant
10.Nash
How is he DEFINITELY the best? Case can be made for Shaq and Duncan as well. Where's Kidd on yr list?

[Prime_Shaq]

as far as just talent, chris webber belongs on that list. Nowhere near it as a player but just a ridiculously talented player.
Damn he was fun to watch

[Alamо]

The best individual basketball players/talents ive seen after Jordan retired:

1. LeBron James
1. Shaquille O'Neal
(cant decide)

3. Kobe Bryant
4. Kevin Durant
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Tim Duncan
7. Tracy McGrady
8. Dwyane Wade
9. Allen Iverson
10. Chris Paul

But in terms of all-time rankings i guess its something like:

1. Shaquille O'Neal (top 5-7)
2. Tim Duncan (top 5-7)
3. LeBron James (top 7-9)
4. Kobe Bryant (top 7-9)
5. Dirk Nowitzki (top 17-22)
6. Kevin Garnett (top 17-22)
7. Dwyane Wade (top 24-29)
8. Steve Nash (top 35-45)
9. Allen Iverson (top 35-45)
10. Kevin Durant (top 35-45)

So all in all, Shaq i think is the greatest player post-Jordan.



Damn you just underrated the shit out of Tim Duncan's prime.

[T_L_P]

Damn you just underrated the shit out of Tim Duncan's prime.

In another thread he said there are 25+ players, including Rick Barry, Bernard King and T-Mac, who had better primes than Duncan.

Said he could back up every player mentioned and bolted. Dude has no clue. :lol

[oti]

1. Shaq - easily
2/3. Duncan/Kobe - hard to decide
4. Bran - he should be 1st but the way he handled moving from the Cavs to Miami and back to Cavs .. nothing great about that
5. Wade - this guy is so underrated on this board just because of his injuries, i would take 2008-2010 wade over anyone on this list , ANYONE!
6. KG - should have retired 3 years ago
7. Dirk - epic 2011 finals
8. Iverson - a joy to watch even with the chucking
9. Durant - shame about this season he can still make top5 if he stops being a damn servant and grows some balls
10. Nash - even tho he didnt deserve 2 MVPs

[Prime_Shaq]

1. Shaq - easily
2/3. Duncan/Kobe - hard to decide
4. Bran - he should be 1st but the way he handled moving from the Cavs to Miami and back to Cavs .. nothing great about that
5. Wade - this guy is so underrated on this board just because of his injuries, i would take 2008-2010 wade over anyone on this list , ANYONE!
6. KG - should have retired 3 years ago
7. Dirk - epic 2011 finals
8. Iverson - a joy to watch even with the chucking
9. Durant - shame about this season he can still make top5 if he stops being a damn servant and grows some balls
10. Nash - even tho he didnt deserve 2 MVPs
Why would Nash be above Kidd? At worst they should be in together

[Derka]

In no order...

Lebron
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Dirk
KG
Durant
Iverson
Nash
Wade

Edit: I put Wade twice because I suck. There, I've got room for Durant now.

[oti]

Why would Nash be above Kidd? At worst they should be in together

You may be right about being together but i guess it comes down to what you value to be greater - Nash's better offence and efficiency or Kidd's better defence and rebounding. I personally would want Nash to run my team. But i wont have anything against someone picking Kidd over him.

[Prime_Shaq]

Hmm... It seems like Jason Kidd is really overlooked on this board.

[Prime_Shaq]

You may be right about being together but i guess it comes down to what you value to be greater - Nash's better offence and efficiency or Kidd's better defence and rebounding. I personally would want Nash to run my team. But i wont have anything against someone picking Kidd over him.
True enough but Kidd's Offense > Nash's Defense and this is just basing on their individual skill. While Nash has 2 MVPs, Kidd did a similar turnaround on the Nets as Nash did on the Suns. Kidd also led them to back-to-back Finals appearances and did ultimately win a ring as a pivotal member of that Dallas team.

[rmt]

Better than Tony Parker in 2003? Arguable

Is this what you call ARGUABLE?

2003 Playoffs
Duncan 24.7 pts / 15.4 rebs / 5.3 asst / 3.3 blks 52.9%
Parker 14.7 pts / 3.5 assts 40.3%