ISH Myth #1: Nash didn't deserve his MVPs

[Im Still Ballin]

Fact.

[T_L_P]

First one: definitely Nash

Second one: should have gone to Dirk

[buddha]

Lie.

[CarlosBoozer]

Sack

[ArbitraryWater]

First one: definitely Nash

Second one: should have gone to Dirk

/thread

Looks like OP's new shtick is repping Nash

[Harison]

Fact - there were more deserving.

[ralph_i_el]

Fact: people on ISH overrate PG's who put up big numbers in bad offenses, and underrate PG's who put up less numbers while orchestrating great offenses.

[Captvic]

2nd one shouldve been kobe's

[nathanjizzle]

according to simple basketball minds, PG's will never deserve MVP.

[Prime_Shaq]

First one: definitely Nash

Second one: should have gone to Dirk
First one could've gone to Shaq as well.

[T_L_P]

First one could've gone to Shaq as well.

I personally don't think so.

I had Nash, Duncan and Dirk ahead of Shaq that year. But I wouldn't have had an issue with him winning it. :confusedshrug:

[Marchesk]

No white dudes won an MVP in the 60s.

[MMM]

giving him the first one made him not getting the 2nd one hard to argue against at the time. the fact that there was no clear cut mvp made it easier for him to come up the middle

[24-Inch_Chrome]

giving him the first one made him not getting the 2nd one hard to argue against at the time. the fact that there was no clear cut mvp made it easier for him to come up the middle

I think that's an interesting point. Phoenix may not have finished with the league's best record in 2005-2006 but Nash posted better individual numbers and they still posted the league's 3rd best record. If 2004-2005 was good enough and no one was there to blow away the competition in 2005-2006 it's not surprising that he was able to draw enough votes for a win.

[Im Still Ballin]

Funny enough Steve actually posted more votes in the MVP in 2006-2007 when Dirk won than when he won the year before... Steve was very close to a threepeat of MVP's... Not been done since Jordan? Or bird?

[John Tesh]

Funny enough Steve actually posted more votes in the MVP in 2006-2007 when Dirk won than when he won the year before... Steve was very close to a threepeat of MVP's... Not been done since Jordan? Or bird?

Ridiculous.

[joe]

Nash in his prime was one of the better players to ever play since the year 2000. The list is like:

Shaq in his prime
Lebron in his prime
Kobe in his prime
Nash/Duncan/Dirk/Wade

He was on a level, in my opinion, higher than Iverson ever reached. Higher than T-Mac or Vince Carter have ever reached. Higher than Durant and Westbrook have reached thus far in their careers. He achieved true greatness for a few short years, and people should appreciate that instead of bashing it.

He is not an all time great. But for a few years, he definitely played like one. And he deserved those MVPs.

[SCdac]

Funny enough Steve actually posted more votes in the MVP in 2006-2007 when Dirk won than when he won the year before... Steve was very close to a threepeat of MVP's... Not been done since Jordan? Or bird?

that would have been hilariously sad

[T_L_P]

Nash in his prime was one of the better players to ever play since the year 2000. The list is like:

Shaq in his prime
Lebron in his prime
Kobe in his prime
Nash/Duncan/Dirk/Wade

He was on a level, in my opinion, higher than Iverson ever reached. Higher than T-Mac or Vince Carter have ever reached. Higher than Durant and Westbrook have reached thus far in their careers. He achieved true greatness for a few short years, and people should appreciate that instead of bashing it.

He is not an all time great. But for a few years, he definitely played like one. And he deserved those MVPs.

I don't really get this post. Are you saying Nash was comparable to Duncan, Dirk and Wade?

[joe]

I don't really get this post. Are you saying Nash was comparable to Duncan, Dirk and Wade?

I mean, for that short window of time, Nash played at a level that was comparable with almost any player from this era. And he was playing at a historically great level that most players never reach.

Prime Nash was equal to Prime Wade. Overall, Wade has had the better career. But just judging who they were at their best, it was equal. And that is saying a lot, because Prime Wade was pretty ridiculous.

I would take 2006/2007 Nash above almost any other player from this era. I would take him over 2014 Durant. I would take him over 2003 T-Mac. I would take him over CP3 at his best, Carmelo at his best, Yao Ming at his best.

The only players who clearly stand above Prime Nash are Prime Shaq, Prime Lebron, and (somewhat arguably) Prime Kobe, Prime Dirk, and Prime Duncan.

[brain drain]

I think that's an interesting point. Phoenix may not have finished with the league's best record in 2005-2006 but Nash posted better individual numbers and they still posted the league's 3rd best record. If 2004-2005 was good enough and no one was there to blow away the competition in 2005-2006 it's not surprising that he was able to draw enough votes for a win.

That was one of the most bizarre MVP narratics of all time, basically Nash only competing only against himself because "well he was MVP last year and he has better numbers this year so he must be MVP again". :facepalm

[SCdac]

If he was so epic and great shouldn't we be saying the same about Stockton? Nash is getting overrated imo. Sure it's a team game (Amare was sick, Marion was versatile, and Diaw broke out and won MIP in 2006), but they couldn't past the Spurs or other teams with their run-and-gun, no-defense type style of play. Tony Parker seemed to have big series against the Suns.

[ralph_i_el]

I don't really get this post. Are you saying Nash was comparable to Duncan, Dirk and Wade?
duh? He ran offenses that routinely and consistently crushed the rest of the league in ORtg...which is insane because that measures the efficiency of each possession, and they were doing it at a super fast pace . He caused the players around him to shoot SIGNIFICANTLY better percentages, especially from 3.

[T_L_P]

I mean, for that short window of time, Nash played at a level that was comparable with almost any player from this era. And he was playing at a historically great level that most players never reach.

Prime Nash was equal to Prime Wade. Overall, Wade has had the better career. But just judging who they were at their best, it was equal. And that is saying a lot, because Prime Wade was pretty ridiculous.

I would take 2006/2007 Nash above almost any other player from this era. I would take him over 2014 Durant. I would take him over 2003 T-Mac. I would take him over CP3 at his best, Carmelo at his best, Yao Ming at his best.

The only players who clearly stand above Prime Nash are Prime Shaq, Prime Lebron, and (somewhat arguably) Prime Kobe, Prime Dirk, and Prime Duncan.

Dude, I freaking loved Nash. I said in the other thread that he probably is the greatest shooter of all-time, and I had no problem with his MVPs.

But Kobe, Wade, Dirk and especially Duncan all had better primes and peaks. Nash's best play doesn't even come close to 99-03 Duncan, it just wasn't. I don't think there's really much argument about it. :confusedshrug:

[joe]

Dude, I freaking loved Nash. I said in the other thread that he probably is the greatest shooter of all-time, and I had no problem with his MVPs.

But Kobe, Wade, Dirk and especially Duncan all had better primes and peaks. Nash's best play doesn't even come close to 99-03 Duncan, it just wasn't. I don't think there's really much argument about it. :confusedshrug:

I do put Kobe and Duncan's peaks above Nash's. I don't put Wade's and Dirk's, I see them as equals. To me, Prime Dirk is that 2011 title run. I think Nash was at that level several times in his MVP years. We both saw what he did in the playoffs against great teams. Nash was a fully actualized basketball player at that point. He was clutch, a great shooter, great passer, could take over games, inspired his teammates, on and on. He put up the numbers, he put up the big games, the only thing he didn't do was win a championship. But remember, Prime Wade didn't win a championship. Neither did Prime Kobe.

In any event, this is Nash's competition: some of the greatest players to ever play the game. Nash was clearly above guys, in my opinion, like Carmelo and Tracy McGrady. As far as peaks, they don't compare to Nash. The only ones that do are the greatest we have seen in the last 15 years. And during those MVP seasons, the only one who was comparable was Kobe, who was on a terrible team, and Lebron, who was out of or barely making the playoffs. So I don't see why people have this resentment towards Nash for his MVPs. At his peak he was one of the best players you will get to see. Him winning an MVP is no surprise to me, it never was.

[Im Still Ballin]

In 04-05 Suns were 2-6 without Nash

In 05-06 Suns were 0-3 without Nash

most of these games they got blown out, and lost to some weak teams

[Im Still Ballin]

2-6 without Nash in 2004-2005

0-3 without Nash in 2005-2006

2-4 without Nash in 2006-2007

0-1 without Nash in 2007-2008

5-4 without Nash in 2008-2009

1-0 without Nash in 2009-2010

1-7 without Nash in 2010-2011

1-4 without Nash in 2011-2012

12-29 without Nash during his stint in PHX

[joe]

That was one of the most bizarre MVP narratics of all time, basically Nash only competing only against himself because "well he was MVP last year and he has better numbers this year so he must be MVP again". :facepalm

That, and they were missing Amare yet were still one of the best teams in the league. And the other best players in the league were still on bad teams and not winning much (Kobe, Lebron). Wade was not at Nash's level yet, and Shaq was arguably the second best player BEHIND Wade on his own team. Who else really deserved the MVP?

The only person people come up with is Kobe. Who, was on a 7th seeded team and lost to Nash in the playoffs. So, that is kind of like.. vindication, yeah?

[brain drain]

In 04-05 Suns were 2-6 without Nash

In 05-06 Suns were 0-3 without Nash

most of these games they got blown out, and lost to some weak teams
By itself, that just means that he had no adequate replacement.

[TheBigVeto]

It's not a myth, just racism.

[raiderfan19]

That, and they were missing Amare yet were still one of the best teams in the league. And the other best players in the league were still on bad teams and not winning much (Kobe, Lebron). Wade was not at Nash's level yet, and Shaq was arguably the second best player BEHIND Wade on his own team. Who else really deserved the MVP?

The only person people come up with is Kobe. Who, was on a 7th seeded team and lost to Nash in the playoffs. So, that is kind of like.. vindication, yeah?
Dirk should have won in 06. 27/9/3 on a 60 win team with only himself jet diop and dampier playing more than 62 games with 48/40/91 percentages with less than 2 topg. Led the league in per, win shares, offensive win shares and win shares per 48. That shouldn't have even been close.