How would Paul's legacy change if he were to win a ring?

[LoneyROY7]

Redick made a comment before tonight's game that if CP were to win a championship he would go down as the GOAT PG.

Well, now that's a pretty absurd statement, but it got me thinking...how would it change his legacy if he were to win a ring?

What say you, ISH?

[J Shuttlesworth]

for one, he would actually have a legacy

[Smoke117]

It would certainly shut up a lot of bastards here.

[Genaro]

Does he know someone called Magic Johnson? I believe the guy has a statue right in front of the place he plays.

Anyway, you meant winning FMVP as well right? I would say you can argue top 3 PG all time if that happens behind Big O and Magic.

[SwishSquared]

I think he'd be on the point guard Mount Rushmore. To JJ's point, Magic's accolades keep CP3 out of top spot for sure but he's in the convo after that if he wins a ring/FMVP.

[stalkerforlife]

Paul smashed another top PG tonight.

If he won a title as the leader, he would be the 2nd best PG of all time.

[ralph_i_el]

How does CP3's career change if he's drafted into a stacked Lakers dynasty?

[Lebron23]

4th best NBA pg of all time behind Isiah Thomas

[greatest-ever]

It would catapult him into the top 25, and ahead of Nash and Stockton for me. But let's be honest here, he isn't winning one with these Clippers.

[Young X]

If he wins a ring, he should go down as a top 3 PG to ever play. From a skill/production level he's as good as anyone and the impact he's had on the Hornets/Clippers has been tremendous.

Alot of the players ranked above him haven't had to face the level of competition that he has. He's never once faced a sub 50 win team, never had the luxury of feasting on weak ass 42 win teams playing in the east. LOL @ f*ggots calling him an underachiever for losing to the Spurs, Lakers, Grizzlies, and OKC. Idiots.

[Mrofir]

It would put him on the same tier as Stockton, Nash, and Kidd

Those guys are the 2nd tier of all time great PGs. There are other ways for CP to make it there -- longevity, assist titles, if he somehow wins an MVP, multiple WCF appearances, clutch play, that sort of thing. But one ring would instantly vault him comfortably into this tier.

2 rings and FMVPs would put him up on that first tier.

[dubeta]

It would put him on the same tier as Stockton, Nash, and Kidd

Those guys are the 2nd tier of all time great PGs. There are other ways for CP to make it there -- longevity, assist titles, if he somehow wins an MVP, multiple WCF appearances, clutch play, that sort of thing. But one ring would instantly vault him comfortably into this tier.

2 rings and FMVPs would put him up on that first tier.

Who's first tier? just magic?

[SaltyMeatballs]

He'd become a top 5 PG ever.

[Mrofir]

Who's first tier? just magic?

I'd say Magic and O for sure, and Isiah Thomas is a nice bridge to the 2nd tier. 1b if you will, in my book anyway.

I'm abstaining from ranking some of the tougher guys to place, the older guys who helped define the position.

[aj1987]

I think he'd be on the point guard Mount Rushmore. To JJ's point, Magic's accolades keep CP3 out of top spot for sure but he's in the convo after that if he wins a ring/FMVP.
Is he really gonna leapfrog Oscar and Isiah?

[Tking714]

I don't get why he'd get ranked over Isiah. He does nothing on the court definitively better than Isiah. And the stats are equal at best. Isiah has the hardware and leadership skills.

[SwishSquared]

Is he really gonna leapfrog Oscar and Isiah?I'm saying he'd be top 4, def not #1, but he you can make a valid argument imo for #2-4, depending on preference. I'm not 100% saying he's not #2, but I can see why people would put him there.

Peak CP3 basically had 0 weaknesses, aside from maybe inconsistent 3 point shooting. People forget he was actually really clutch before he lost his burst. I think he's had some bad breaks in his career, from the New Orleans ownership group (too long of a story to delve into), to his knee injury, etc. I think if he was in the East all these years, he'd have the sort of deep playoff runs that would build his resume. Of course, he's botched games over the years on some big stages, too. Not absolving him of blame, but he does just about everything you need in a PG.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Magic & Isiah win rings with this current clippers team, would easily be favorites if swapped for Paul

[Fawker]

just equal to a tim hardaway

[Fawker]

gary payton is just one hurdle

[Spurs m8]

1. Will always be a flopper
2. Will never win a ring
3. The fmvp thing is hilarious

[J Shuttlesworth]

I still can't see what's preventing the Clippers from getting deeper in the playoffs. What are they lacking?

[Tking714]

I'm saying he'd be top 4, def not #1, but he you can make a valid argument imo for #2-4, depending on preference. I'm not 100% saying he's not #2, but I can see why people would put him there.

Peak CP3 basically had 0 weaknesses, aside from maybe inconsistent 3 point shooting. People forget he was actually really clutch before he lost his burst. I think he's had some bad breaks in his career, from the New Orleans ownership group (too long of a story to delve into), to his knee injury, etc. I think if he was in the East all these years, he'd have the sort of deep playoff runs that would build his resume. Of course, he's botched games over the years on some big stages, too. Not absolving him of blame, but he does just about everything you need in a PG.

Yea as of now he's right there with Stockton. Stockton has just as much of a case; at least as of now. Magic, Isiah, Big O, Stockton/Paul. I would definitively say that Paul has leapfrogged Nash and Kidd. If he got a ring/finals mvp then he's top 4.

[coin24]

CP3 make it out of the second round??
Clippers win a title??

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[Micku]

I still can't see what's preventing the Clippers from getting deeper in the playoffs. What are they lacking?

Defense this year.

Last year it was IQ.

[SillyRabbit]

If Paul actually led the Clippers to a title and won a FMVP then I would have no problem viewing him as a top 3 PG of all time.

Getting through the stacked Western Conference is no easy task. If he managed to pull that off then clearly he would've raised his game to a new level in the post-season, which is the only knock against him in his career.

[ralph_i_el]

I don't get why he'd get ranked over Isiah. He does nothing on the court definitively better than Isiah. And the stats are equal at best. Isiah has the hardware and leadership skills.
Because Isiah straight up admitted that he thinks CP3 is a better player than him, on TV.

Sometimes the fates never align to let a guy win a chip. I sincerely hope he at least makes a conference finals. There is literally no knock on CP3's game that I'd consider valid. Bast passer, best ball handler, and point guard defender for YEARS now. Best midrange shooter in the league. Top-5 finisher at the rim for his position.

Is it because he's short that people don't take him seriously? Because he actually uses that to his advantage. Hard to shake him with screens because of his low center of gravity, hard to stop his dribble because he gets so low. His stature actually opens up his off the dribble game in very entertaining ways. He does things with the ball that you will rarely see done if you watch the NBA your entire life.

The clippers need a wing defender. Or a really good defensive scheme to cover up the lack thereof with their ridiculous big athletecism. Doc is overrated in that aspect, because he benefited from having Thibs at his side in Boston.

[yobore]

He does nothing on the court definitively better than Isiah
You've got that backwards.

[Noob Saibot]

you will see more Cliff Paul commercials, that much is certain.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Right now he is probably the best pg of his overall era (individual years he may not be the best but generally he's always in the top 3). The difference a ring would make would depend on how he got the ring but there's nothing he could do to make me think he was on par with Magic or Oscar Robertson. A great finish to his career including a Finals MVP champ ring makes him vs. Isaiah Thomas a discussion but right now to me he is lumped in with a bunch of guys behind Magic, Robertson and Thomas.

[houston]

he top 5 ever

[jayfan]

You've got that backwards.

No, he's got it right. Thomas wins better. It's Mr. Clutch v. Mr. Not Clutch.


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[ClipperRevival]

It would do wonders for his legacy and shut a lot of people up. To me, even without a ring, he is the most complete pg ever. Not saying he's the best ever but most complete, which is different. He really had no weakness except his size. What he brings to the table on a nightly basis on both ends is pretty remarkable. A ring is the only thing missing. He barely missed out on an MVP in 2008 but that's alright.

He's one of those guys that would almost guarantee his team a playoff birth, even if you were to put him on the worst team in the league. He just had such a positive impact on both ends.

[GoSpursGo1984]

CP3 make it out of the second round??
Clippers win a title??

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[pauk]

Rings are overrated that way.... a player of his caliber with a ring/fmvp all of the sudden is maybe a top 20 player of all time, changing his "legacy" dramatically in the casual fans eyes.... but right now not even close, although he is the same exact player....

Ring = 100% team accomplishment.... you can be the greatest player to ever lace em up and never win one or get maybe 1 or 2 if very lucky.... i have never & never will use it to evaluate an individual players basketball ability.... this is not tennis / 1 on 1...

What you can use is context instead, if a guy has a ring then you should look at the championship run itself from the individuals perspective.... how great was his impact, his performance, what did he have to work with around him, competition?

Rings count is an extremly shallow way for fans to rank players all-time.... this way a LESSER player can be ranked over FAR BETTER actual individual players.... like Russell over Hakeem or Wilt etc.... like Magic over Oscar (no man, he was not better).... like Pippen over Durant..... and so on...

Rings is also arbitrary, like a triple double, 10-10-10 is not better than 15-9-10.... 20-10-10 is not better than 35-8-8....

I mean a guy can have the most amazing individual performance in playoffs history taking the worst supporting cast in NBA history to an NBA finals and then lose in the Finals because his supporting cast just couldnt deal with the opposing stacked talent.... was that really less prestigious to the guy who played much worse and won a ring with the most stacked team ever? Really?

Thats like saying the F1 driver who won the Race did better than the guy who came 0.001 sec. 2nd behind him in a god damn Toyota Prius....

Completely arbitrary....

[coin24]

Rings are overrated that way.... a player of his caliber with a ring/fmvp all of the sudden is maybe a top 20 player of all time, changing his "legacy" dramatically in the casual fans eyes.... but right now not even close, although he is the same exact player....

Ring = 100% team accomplishment.... you can be the greatest player to ever lace em up and never win one or get maybe 1 or 2 if very lucky.... i have never & never will use it to evaluate an individual players basketball ability.... this is not tennis / 1 on 1...

What you can use is context instead, if a guy has a ring then you should look at the championship run itself from the individuals perspective.... how great was his impact, his performance, what did he have to work with around him, competition?

Rings count is an extremly shallow way for fans to rank players all-time.... this way a LESSER player can be ranked over FAR BETTER actual individual players.... like Russell over Hakeem or Wilt etc.... like Magic over Oscar.... like Pippen over Durant..... and so on...

Rings is also arbitrary, like a triple double, 10-10-10 is not better than 15-9-10.... 20-10-10 is not better than 35-8-8....

I mean a guy can have the most amazing individual performance in playoffs history taking the worst supporting cast in NBA history to an NBA finals and then lose in the Finals because his supporting cast just couldnt deal with the opposing stacked talent.... was that really less prestigious to the guy who played much worse and won a ring with the most stacked team ever? Really?

Thats like saying the F1 driver who won the Race was the best and not the guy who came 0.001 2nd behind him in a god damn Toyota Prius....

Completely arbitrary....

2/5

[ClipperRevival]

Rings are overrated that way.... a player of his caliber with a ring/fmvp all of the sudden is maybe a top 20 player of all time, changing his "legacy" dramatically in the casual fans eyes.... but right now not even close, although he is the same exact player....

Ring = 100% team accomplishment.... you can be the greatest player to ever lace em up and never win one or get maybe 1 or 2 if very lucky.... i have never & never will use it to evaluate an individual players basketball ability.... this is not tennis / 1 on 1...

What you can use is context instead, if a guy has a ring then you should look at the championship run itself from the individuals perspective.... how great was his impact, his performance, what did he have to work with around him, competition?

Rings count is an extremly shallow way for fans to rank players all-time.... this way a LESSER player can be ranked over FAR BETTER actual individual players.... like Russell over Hakeem or Wilt etc.... like Magic over Oscar (no man, he was not better).... like Pippen over Durant..... and so on...

Rings is also arbitrary, like a triple double, 10-10-10 is not better than 15-9-10.... 20-10-10 is not better than 35-8-8....

I mean a guy can have the most amazing individual performance in playoffs history taking the worst supporting cast in NBA history to an NBA finals and then lose in the Finals because his supporting cast just couldnt deal with the opposing stacked talent.... was that really less prestigious to the guy who played much worse and won a ring with the most stacked team ever? Really?

Thats like saying the F1 driver who won the Race did better than the guy who came 0.001 sec. 2nd behind him in a god damn Toyota Prius....

Completely arbitrary....

If this was another sport, I would agree. But not basketball, where one superstar can have a huge impact on the outcome of games. I like the NBA because it is predictable. Every year, before the season even begins, we already know the 4-5 teams that have legit shots at winning it all and these teams are usually led by the top players in the league.

And you are unfairly assuming that a great player might've never had the proper help during this entire career. I would say that a guy like CP3 has had enough help the last few years. So he's had the talent around him to win. If he doesn't win, does that take away from what he was, which is one of the best PGs ever? Of course not. But to me, winning rings is what SEPARATES you from other greats and ELEVATES your legacy to another level. And I see now problem in doing that. Sure, you can be great without a ring but winning rings, especially as "the man", carries weight. And I think fairly so.

[ClipperRevival]

Let's take the example of Olajuwon and Robinson. Both have two rings to their resume but the way they got them are worlds apart. Olajuwon was clearly "the man" in their two runs while Robinson was at the tail end of his career and piggy backed off of Duncan. And history is judging them accordingly. Hakeem is widely accepted as one of the best C ever and while Robinson is also higher regarded, he is clearly a tier below that. And the biggest reason for that is because of how they won their rings. Robinson had his chances against Hakeem, while in his prime, and he came up short.

Same with a guy like Pippen. He has 6 rings but he never won one as "the man". He was always second fiddle to MJ and never had to face the pressure of having defenses focus on him every game and doubling him. He didn't have that burden. So you have to take his 6 rings with a grain of salt.

What about Drexler? He also has a ring. But he also piggy backed off of Olajuwon in 1995. He's still an ATG but his status is not as high as it could be if he had won one as "the man" during his Blazer days. Imagine how much higher his legacy would be if he had actually beaten MJ in 1992?

Having said all of that, this is why I revere MJ so much. The guy was 6/6 in the Finals. He was by far the most popular athlete in basketball and got the opposition's best every night. Yet he still kept winning. He was never pushed to a 7th game in the Finals and took down some great teams in the process. He didn't let the others stars of his era dictate his legacy. He drew the sand on the line and stopped all comers at their tracks. Preventing Magic from getting his 6th, Drexler from getting one, Barkley from getting one, Payton/Kemp from getting one and Malone/Stockton from getting one. He came, he saw, he conquered.

[hawksdogsbraves]

Skillwise he probably already is a top tier PG all time, but yeah he could use a little hardware to cement that legacy. No Finals appearances, no MVP's, that's not a great look when you're trying to compete in a conversation with Magic or Isaiah Thomas.

[yobore]

He is the 2nd best PG all time with or without a ring but it would still make a huge difference.

[SwishSquared]

If this was another sport, I would agree. But not basketball, where one superstar can have a huge impact on the outcome of games. I like the NBA because it is predictable. Every year, before the season even begins, we already know the 4-5 teams that have legit shots at winning it all and these teams are usually led by the top players in the league.

And you are unfairly assuming that a great player might've never had the proper help during this entire career. I would say that a guy like CP3 has had enough help the last few years. So he's had the talent around him to win. If he doesn't win, does that take away from what he was, which is one of the best PGs ever? Of course not. But to me, winning rings is what SEPARATES you from other greats and ELEVATES your legacy to another level. And I see now problem in doing that. Sure, you can be great without a ring but winning rings, especially as "the man", carries weight. And I think fairly so.I agree with this nearly entirely, but I honestly think his "help" on the Clippers team has been overrated. Their bench has been underwhelming for two years now. Last year the backup big situation was beyond funny and one of Doc's big additions was injured all season long (Dudley). Also, if your 5'11" starting PG is defending the other teams' best offensive wings in fourth quarters, you've done a bad job getting adequate defenders.

This year, the bench "improvements" are pretty bad. Barnes, who's playing very well this year, is more of a bench wing imo, and their depth behind him is underwhelming. CP3 and BG are the only crunch time guys who can make things happen and that poses an issue (predictable offensive sets). Playing Crawford down the stretch can hurt just as much as he helps due to his defense and tendency to have tunnel vision

I think some teams just have lower ceilings and this Clippers team at best wins 2 series any given year, and they would really have to clicking on all cylinders. I don't think that's happened yet in the playoffs.

[ClipperRevival]

I agree with this nearly entirely, but I honestly think his "help" on the Clippers team has been overrated. Their bench has been underwhelming for two years now. Last year the backup big situation was beyond funny and one of Doc's big additions was injured all season long (Dudley). Also, if your 5'11" starting PG is defending the other teams' best offensive wings in fourth quarters, you've done a bad job getting adequate defenders.

This year, the bench "improvements" are pretty bad. Barnes, who's playing very well this year, is more of a bench wing imo, and their depth behind him is underwhelming. CP3 and BG are the only crunch time guys who can make things happen and that poses an issue (predictable offensive sets). Playing Crawford down the stretch can hurt just as much as he helps due to his defense and tendency to have tunnel vision

I think some teams just have lower ceilings and this Clippers team at best wins 2 series any given year, and they would really have to clicking on all cylinders. I don't think that's happened yet in the playoffs.

I can't disagree with anything you said. You seem to be a Clipper fan based on what you said because you get it. Yeah, our bench was a strength a few years ago with Collison, Bledsoe and Barnes but now it's been a joke the last 2 years. And yes, our lack of a legit, wing player is our biggest hole. CP3 does have to guard the opposition's best player when we absolutely need stops.

But like I said in my original post, if CP3 doesn't win one, it doesn't take much away from what he was. But winning a ring just elevates his legacy. This is an amazingly tough Western Conference right now. Only 1 team can come out on top. I thought we got robbed of the OKC series last year. CP3 choked big time in game 5 but that call was obviously the wrong one. I really thought we had a shot at going all the way had we gone past OKC.

[SwishSquared]

I can't disagree with anything you said. You seem to be a Clipper fan based on what you said because you get it. Yeah, our bench was a strength a few years ago with Collison, Bledsoe and Barnes but now it's been a joke the last 2 years. And yes, our lack of a legit, wing player is our biggest hole. CP3 does have to guard the opposition's best player when we absolutely need stops.

But like I said in my original post, if CP3 doesn't win one, it doesn't take much away from what he was. But winning a ring just elevates his legacy. This is an amazingly tough Western Conference right now. Only 1 team can come out on top. I thought we got robbed of the OKC series last year. CP3 choked big time in game 5 but that call was obviously the wrong one. I really thought we had a shot at going all the way had we gone past OKC.I absolutely agree that a ring elevates his legacy and separates him from others he's historically clumped with. A ring is obviously the ultimate goal, but for some guys, they kinda are a victim of circumstance and can't do much to advance their legacy. I think CP3's historically great and a ring would be validation for his greatness, but I know just how complete he is as a player so I wouldn't hold it too much against him if he ends up ringless. I agree with your whole 2nd paragraph. In summer 2013 I picked LAC to make the Finals and they had a real shot to do so, but between the bad CP3 decisions and the wrong calls, they just squandered the opportunity to get to WCF.

Paul is playing much harder than he did at the start of the year, likely mostly due to BG's elbow injury, but I think he really wants to atone for last year's Game 5 in this postseason. He hasn't recovered from that the same way the Spurs didn't recover from Game 6 in 2013 until they curb stomped Miami in the Finals a year later. Granted I don't think they'll make or win the Finals...but he's more motivated this season.

Fwiw I'm not a Clippers fan or anything, but I do try to remain objective in rating guys and teams. I just know that the roster has flaws that haven't been addressed and it would take having like 6 guys all rolling at same time for this team to accomplish the type of postseason success casual fans assume/expect from them. And that type of run is not super likely to happen unfortunately.

[ClipperRevival]

I absolutely agree that a ring elevates his legacy and separates him from others he's historically clumped with. A ring is obviously the ultimate goal, but for some guys, they kinda are a victim of circumstance and can't do much to advance their legacy. I think CP3's historically great and a ring would be validation for his greatness, but I know just how complete he is as a player so I wouldn't hold it too much against him if he ends up ringless. I agree with your whole 2nd paragraph. In summer 2013 I picked LAC to make the Finals and they had a real shot to do so, but between the bad CP3 decisions and the wrong calls, they just squandered the opportunity to get to WCF.

Paul is playing much harder than he did at the start of the year, likely mostly due to BG's elbow injury, but I think he really wants to atone for last year's Game 5 in this postseason. He hasn't recovered from that the same way the Spurs didn't recover from Game 6 in 2013 until they curb stomped Miami in the Finals a year later. Granted I don't think they'll make or win the Finals...but he's more motivated this season.

Fwiw I'm not a Clippers fan or anything, but I do try to remain objective in rating guys and teams. I just know that the roster has flaws that haven't been addressed and it would take having like 6 guys all rolling at same time for this team to accomplish the type of postseason success casual fans assume/expect from them. And that type of run is not super likely to happen unfortunately.

Well, I am a Clipper fan and you sound like you keep up with them. But I agree that a lot of people need to get on a roll for this team to have a chance. Meaning their trio has to play at a high level and Redick needs to continue his hot hand. And another guy or two needs to play above their normal level.

[Harison]

Redick made a comment before tonight's game that if CP were to win a championship he would go down as the GOAT PG.


:roll:

Redick is a funny guy.

[SwishSquared]

Well, I am a Clipper fan and you sound like you keep up with them. But I agree that a lot of people need to get on a roll for this team to have a chance. Meaning their trio has to play at a high level and Redick needs to continue his hot hand. And another guy or two needs to play above their normal level.I'm just a hoops head haha and their games are convenient to watch since they're on TV so much. Best of luck to them this postseason- maybe with shorter rotations, the bench won't harm them too badly. Good talking to you about your team, ClipperRevival :cheers:

[KevinNYC]

He does nothing on the court definitively better than Isiah.
Checking the first three things off the top of my head

Isiah turned the ball over more

16.8 career turnover percentage to 13.0


Isiah shot worse

Paul's career field goal percentage is .473 while Thomas is .452. This is despite Paul taking 700 more 3's in his career.


Thomas never led the league in steals. Paul did 5 years in a row. Thomas only has two years where he averaged more steals a game than Paul has for his entire career.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Redick made a comment before tonight's game that if CP were to win a championship he would go down as the GOAT PG.

Well, now that's a pretty absurd statement, but it got me thinking...how would it change his legacy if he were to win a ring?

What say you, ISH?

Good to see his Duke education paid off.... :facepalm

[Optimus Prime]

He could seriously be mentioned as one of the best PGs ever without getting laughed out of the room.

"One of the best PGs ever" gets his team past the second round. No excuses.

:kobe:

[Young X]

^Anyone who doesn't think he's one of the best PG's ever is an idiot.

[PsychoBe]

even with favorable rules to make it easier for him he can't carry the load because he lacks defensive versatility.

plus he choked hard in the playoffs last year. we'll see how this year goes.