Why Don't Teams Play Full Court Defense Any More?

[DonDadda59]

Something I noticed about the difference in coaching strategies now (and even the 80s from what I've seen) vs the 90s- coaches don't run full court defenses any more. It was a regular occurrence to see teams pressuring the ball, trapping, running zones, etc immediately after the ball was inbound and then transition to other more traditional sets once the ball crossed half court.

Prime examples:

Bulls run traps in the backcourt, transition to 1-3-1 zone in the half court (https://youtu.be/GAUjMu_DCLQ?t=24s)

Miami runs a 2-2-1 Full Court Zone Trap/Press (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CE2hU-OaIo)

The Knicks run a full court press and transition to trapping zone in the half court (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpVJBaFhAA8)

I think that was one of the major reasons why the pace slowed down considerably from the 80s to the 90s. The game became more physical, but teams were also putting pressure on the ball handler from the jump instead of letting them push up court quickly.

Full court sets are virtually nonexistent in the league now. Why is that? :confusedshrug:

[UK2K]

Too easy to break.

Its hard enough to guard Harden/Lebron/Curry/Durant/Westbrook on the half court, let alone 94 feet.

[navy]

You show highlights of teams breaking it easy and then wonder why teams dont run it?

[ArbitraryWater]

You show highlights of teams breaking it easy and then wonder why teams dont run it?

lol

[DonDadda59]

Too easy to break.

With hand-checking being eliminated, I could see that. Can't physically impede guys any more. Too easy for guys to just blow by their defender I suppose.


Its hard enough to guard Harden/Lebron/Curry/Durant/Westbrook on the half court, let alone 94 feet.

Yeah, if physicality on the perimeter were still allowed defenders might be able to slow down those guys (especially the ball dominant ones) ala Pip vs Magic in '91:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE

But without the physicality being allowed, kind of renders back court pressure useless.

[DonDadda59]

You show highlights of teams breaking it easy and then wonder why teams dont run it?

:biggums:

The Bulls forced a turnover in one clip. Jordan had to pull some Houdini shit just to get 2 points in another. And just look at the pace of the league throughout the 90s... Obviously something happened that slowed offenses down dramatically from the 80s, and then they went up again after certain rule changes during the mid 00s and on.

And look at the vid I posted in my previous post and consider that LA had a 94.1 Pace during the regular season and played at 85.8 during the finals when Pip was pressuring the GOAT PG full court. The Bulls reduced the Lakers' offensive possessions by 9. That's absurd.

[ZenMaster]

You'd commit too many fouls after the rule changes.

[Smoke117]

:biggums:

The Bulls forced a turnover in one clip. Jordan had to pull some Houdini shit just to get 2 points in another. And just look at the pace of the league throughout the 90s... Obviously something happened that slowed offenses down dramatically from the 80s, and then they went up again after certain rule changes during the mid 00s and on.

And look at the vid I posted in my previous post and consider that LA had a 94.1 Pace during the regular season and played at 85.8 during the finals when Pip was pressuring the GOAT PG full court. The Bulls reduced the Lakers' offensive possessions by 9. That's absurd.

So...your argument is that the greatest defensive player at his position did it, so everyone can? Okay.

[DonDadda59]

You'd commit too many fouls after the rule changes.

That's what I figured the reason was. Look at how pedestrian old man Kobe made Bron look when he pressured him full court while handchecking him:

https://youtu.be/5X-VaAqPqmY?t=40s

Luckily Bron doesn't have to deal with that sort of pressure on a nightly basis.

[navy]

:biggums:

The Bulls forced a turnover in one clip. Jordan had to pull some Houdini shit just to get 2 points in another. And just look at the pace of the league throughout the 90s... Obviously something happened that slowed offenses down dramatically from the 80s, and then they went up again after certain rule changes during the mid 00s and on.

And look at the vid I posted in my previous post and consider that LA had a 94.1 Pace during the regular season and played at 85.8 during the finals when Pip was pressuring the GOAT PG full court. The Bulls reduced the Lakers' offensive possessions by 9. That's absurd.
No, the turnover came when the trap was already beat.

[DonDadda59]

So...your argument is that the greatest defensive player at his position did it, so everyone can? Okay.

No, my argument is that there was a league wide phenomena that led to offenses drastically slowing down across the boards throughout the 90s and then rise again in pace following certain rule changes. I just made the connection between certain defensive schemes/philosophies that may have been responsible for said phenomena.

The Pippen pressuring Magic in the finals and grinding the Lakers' offense to a halt was just one particular example that backs up my theory.


No, the turnover came when the trap was already beat.

The trap halted the progression of the ball in the back court and forced the PG to throw the ball to their PF at the 3 point line... and his pass led to a turnover. The Bulls effectively forced the ball out of the opponents' best ball handler/passer and capitalized on their PF being in the odd position of having to set up their offense. Obviously that didn't work out.

But if you want to consider that 'beating it easily', more power to you.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bucks doing it plenty here, for example, especially when Jordan brought the ball up (they used to do it, when "required", many times):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFV59cFZi-U

Hubie Brown's Knicks used to play full-court defense plenty of times, I remember the Hawks - in Nique's days - would use it too.
What the showtime Lakers did a lot wasn't exactly it but they always kept the pressure very high on D (gambling plenty too), hoping for fastbreak opportunities...

But I agree that today, with the rule changes, it would be unwise to play it a lot, especially against them end-to-end threats.

[andgar923]

like others stated... rule changes make it harder.

[RidonKs]

the lack of the handcheck is the probably the biggest change as others have said. good call with the kobe lebron clip, i never noticed how stiff kobe's armbar is there. still that doesn't entirely explain the lack of zoning and trapping that can still work even without stifling man coverage

two other factors

- its a smaller more versatile league. its a lot easier to break a press with four ball handlers than it is with three. and then you have draygawd type lineups that would make it downright impossible

- im willing to bet coaches have learned better. maybe im wrong but a defense probably expends a lot more energy trying to contain with that much space than an offense expends trying to break out right? and more on the cost-benefit, the potential for easy buckets is high and can be extremely demoralizing

still its a shame you don't see it more often to target crappy point guards. there are a few starting ball handlers in the league that the more athletic teams could definite haggle into a few turnovers if they turned it on sporadically. all about timing though.

good thread :applause:

[You Cant Ban Me]

This generation is way too talented for any of that stuff to work i mean come on....This is a generation that grew up watching mj aka the goat.Just watching him makes you 2x the player you would of been if you never seen him play

[DonDadda59]

- its a smaller more versatile league. its a lot easier to break a press with four ball handlers than it is with three. and then you have draygawd type lineups that would make it downright impossible

Excellent point. Probably easier to beat a zone trap or press in the back court with Chris Bosh as your center than it is with Patrick Ewing at that spot.


- im willing to bet coaches have learned better. maybe im wrong but a defense probably expends a lot more energy trying to contain with that much space than an offense expends trying to break out right? and more on the cost-benefit, the potential for easy buckets is high and can be extremely demoralizing

It's possible. Especially in an era where the game's best player begs to play less minutes during the season.



This generation is way too talented for any of that stuff to work i mean come on....This is a generation that grew up watching mj aka the goat.Just watching him makes you 2x the player you would of been if you never seen him play

Yeah that's probably it. Makes perfect sense. :applause:

[DonDadda59]

Celtics playing watered down full court press vs Deron Williams & Nets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hECMJ5uljUI)

Even without being able to physically impede the ball handlers, that press really disrupted the Nets' offense. Odd that you don't see that more, especially against lesser teams as Ridonks pointed out.

[Balla_Status]

Does Team USA do it in international competition? Seems like they could tear shit up doing a full court press.

[fourkicks44]

"Larry Bird is not walking through that door, fans.Kevin McHale is not walking through that door, and Robert Parish is not walking through that door."

[dubeta]

Players can dribble now

[DonDadda59]

Players can dribble now

Oh, Indeed (https://youtu.be/5X-VaAqPqmY?t=39s)

^That's old man Bean making prime LeBron look like a middle schooler by playing him full court with handchecking. I'd hate to see what a prime Pippen would've done to him.

http://info.autoworksmn.com/Portals/94047/images/disgusted-meme.png

[Poetry]

Players can dribble now

http://giant.gfycat.com/BitesizedHardAmericanwigeon.gif

[DonDadda59]

http://giant.gfycat.com/BitesizedHardAmericanwigeon.gif

http://info.autoworksmn.com/Portals/94047/images/disgusted-meme.png

[fourkicks44]

http://giant.gfycat.com/BitesizedHardAmericanwigeon.gif

Should've went to college. Could have been one of the best pro players ever.

[John Tesh]

You'd commit too many fouls after the rule changes.

This. You can't physically stop players like you used to.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Takes significant energy to defend full court

[DonDadda59]

Takes significant energy to defend full court

Yeah, probably too much to ask a bunch of multimillionaires with access to world class training and nutritional infrastructure to exert some energy like part time used car salesmen used to back in the day.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/LeBron-James-Smallest-Violin-Gif.gif

[sammichoffate]

Half-Court trapping became the norm after hand-checking was done. If you don't pick up Curry slightly beyond the three, you have no chance in the PnR.

[DonDadda59]

Got them gifs.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/d7ZkI6.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/et-QNb.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/VuCFNb.gif

The few times you see it today:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/D3mgwW.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/JeAZcn.gif

[aj1987]

Celtics playing watered down full court press vs Deron Williams & Nets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hECMJ5uljUI)

Even without being able to physically impede the ball handlers, that press really disrupted the Nets' offense. Odd that you don't see that more, especially against lesser teams as Ridonks pointed out.
They basically put the game away by playing 4 minutes of defense.

Miami's defense from '11 and '12 ('13 to an extent) was just incredible. It was fun to watch Wade, LeBron, and Bosh shutdown players and entire teams. Wade from '09-'12 instead of Wade from '11-14 on the Heat with LeBron and Bosh would've been fun as hell.

[Im Still Ballin]

They basically put the game away by playing 4 minutes of defense.

Miami's defense from '11 and '12 ('13 to an extent) was just incredible. It was fun to watch Wade, LeBron, and Bosh shutdown players and entire teams. Wade from '09-'12 instead of Wade from '11-14 on the Heat with LeBron and Bosh would've been fun as hell.
:bowdown: