Shaq's longevity = truly underappreciated

[mehyaM24]

for all the acclaim kobe, reggie, & kareem got, shaq's longevity was incredible

-14 straight seasons of 20ppg
-13 straight seasons with a double-double
-either led the league or was top 5 in rapm for 13 straight seasons

^^ above is exactly what made shaq's 2006 title extremely impressive. a season removed of his prime with average raw stats, and yet, he was still a force to be reckoned with. below are quotes from teammates and opposing teams on the mismatches shaq drew.


Everything starts with dealing with Shaquille," Dallas coach Avery Johnson says.

O'Neal has not only played smartly and efficiently but at times has been as dominant as ever. Despite double-teams, sometimes when he doesn't have the ball, he is averaging 14.6 points, 9.8 rebounds and 3.2 assists and shooting 66.7%.

"Everyone knows that he's 34 years old and he's not the young Shaq-be-nimble, Shaq-be-quick, but we know we wouldn't be at this point without him,"Wade says. "He's the biggest part of what we have here in Miami."

MDE :applause:

[navy]

It's because people only remember his laker career and afterwards.

[beastee]

Shaq is a top 7 player of all time. Where he lands on that list is only determined if you count players from the 60's and 70's really being on his level in the modern game.

Shaq was a freaking beast.

[beastee]

Was robbed of a FMVP in 2006
Please walk off a short pier.

[navy]

Was robbed of a FMVP in 2006
Bruh, you're not even trying anymore.

[Lebron23]

He started his career in 1992. He started winning when he finally had a great coach in Phil Jackson. If Shaq was drafted in 1997. He would likely double the Finals MVP of Tim Duncan cause he was a much better, and more dominant player than Timmy.

[RightToCensor]

Offensive beast. Average defender. If there's one positive I can give Shaq is that he uses his huge size on both sides of the floor.

I have him just outside my Top 10, his peak years were phenomenal, his longevity was great, his impact outside of Los Angeles was disappointing.

[dubeta]

Offensive beast. Average defender. If there's one positive I can give Shaq is that he uses his huge size on both sides of the floor.

I have him just outside my Top 10, his peak years were phenomenal, his longevity was great, his impact outside of Los Angeles was disappointing.

:biggums:

[RightToCensor]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Oscar Robinson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant

5-7 is interchangeable
9-12 is interchangeable (adding Lebron and Shaq)

[mehyaM24]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Oscar Robinson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant
terrible.

kobe, oscar nor hakeem belong over shaq.

[SouBeachTalents]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Oscar Robinson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant

5-7 is interchangeable
9-12 is interchangeable (adding Lebron and Shaq)

:roll:

[RightToCensor]

People forget how dominant Oscar (triple double seasons) and Hakeem (all time great scorer, rebounder, passer, stealer, and shot blocker for his position) were in their days.

Kobe simply has had a better career than Shaq. No debating.

[DMAVS41]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Oscar Robinson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant

5-7 is interchangeable
9-12 is interchangeable (adding Lebron and Shaq)

It's really hard to rank Kobe over Shaq.

Based on what? Shaq was a better player at his best and has great longevity...perhaps better than Kobe actually.

Really tough to argue for Kobe over Shaq all time imo...

[DMAVS41]

People forget how dominant Oscar and Hakeem were in their days.

Kobe simply has had a better career than Shaq. No debating.

No debating?

If you call being clearly a worse player and having a similar length of prime/longevity..."not debating"...

[mehyaM24]

People forget how dominant Oscar (triple double seasons) and Hakeem (all time great scorer, rebounder, passer, stealer, and shot blocker for his position) were in their days.

Kobe simply has had a better career than Shaq. No debating.
no. he hasn't.

1 more ring, but 3 were under shaq's shadow. less mvp's. less stats. less dominance. lest impact. worse playoff and regular season play ---> suggests a worse AT rating than shaq.

get out of my thread.

[Im Still Ballin]

Karl Malone's longevity = more truly under-appreciated

[RightToCensor]

Shaq's potential is higher that it was during his peak years in Los Angeles, if he'd been dedicated to the game like a young Kobe Bryant was he would actually been able to average 28/15 during a season with elite defense.

Kobe's accomplishments with awards are greater than Shaq's.
Kobe is the better worker than Shaq.
Kobe is the better scorer than Shaq.
Kobe is the better leader than Shaq,
Kobe is the better defender for his position than Shaq.

[dubeta]

I don't know why people even try and argue Duncan over Shaq.

Tell me with a straight face that if you put Shaq in that Spurs system, and he gets drafted in 1997, that he doesnt win at least 6 rings with 5 FMVPs? :oldlol:

[RightToCensor]

Shaq left untapped potential on the table because he was lazy throughout his career. That's a big minus.

[dubeta]

Shaq's potential is higher that it was during his peak years in Los Angeles, if he'd been dedicated to the game like a young Kobe Bryant was he would actually been able to average 28/15 during a season with elite defense.

Kobe's accomplishments with awards are greater than Shaq's.
Kobe is the better worker than Shaq.
Kobe is the better scorer than Shaq.
Kobe is the better leader than Shaq,
Kobe is the better defender for his position than Shaq.

5 lies in one post, an ISH record :applause:

[hiphopfan777]

Kobe is better. More rings,81 points,62 points in three quarters. Kobe stayed loyal to his team and had lots of rebuilding. Shaq went ring chasing by joining wade

[RightToCensor]

Article from last year on Kobe discussing Shaq's laziness:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/kobe-bryant-on-shaquille-o-neal---it-used-to-drive-me-crazy-that-he-was-so-lazy-222928345.html

[mehyaM24]

Shaq's potential is higher that it was during his peak years in Los Angeles, if he'd been dedicated to the game like a young Kobe Bryant was he would actually been able to average 28/15 during a season with elite defense.

Kobe's accomplishments with awards are greater than Shaq's.
Kobe is the better worker than Shaq.
Kobe is the better scorer than Shaq.
Kobe is the better leader than Shaq,
Kobe is the better defender for his position than Shaq.

shaq has a higher ppg in the playoffs.
shaq has led his teams to more finals and rings
shaq is more alpha evidenced by slapping kobe in practice, and kobe doing nothing about it
shaq's accomplishments per alpha titles, mvps & final mvps trump kobe's.

while their careers are close, shaq is a better peak and prime player.

leave my thread or i will continue to embarrass you.

[ProfessorMurder]

Please walk off a short pier.

Please use that phrase correctly. You don't need to quantify the length of the pier without saying how long of a walk he should take.

You might as well say, 'walk off of a pier' at this point.

[StrongLurk]

Kobe - 1280 games played. Shaq - 1207.

Kobe's biggest achievements are 5 rings (3 because of shaq), and longevity (only 73 games more than shaq, all while coming into the league in high school giving Kobe the massive advantage for longetivity.

Honestly Ive always thought Shaq>Kobe. People are just too young and most likely have no idea Shaq came into the league in 1992.

[DMAVS41]

Shaq's potential is higher that it was during his peak years in Los Angeles, if he'd been dedicated to the game like a young Kobe Bryant was he would actually been able to average 28/15 during a season with elite defense.

Kobe's accomplishments with awards are greater than Shaq's.
Kobe is the better worker than Shaq.
Kobe is the better scorer than Shaq.
Kobe is the better leader than Shaq,
Kobe is the better defender for his position than Shaq.

Better worker? Who cares? Shaq was the better player.

Better awards? Not sure about that.

Better scorer? Not in the playoffs.

Better leader? Not sure about that...

Better defender? Nope...not at all.

[mehyaM24]

Better worker? Who cares? Shaq was the better player.

Better awards? Not sure about that.

Better scorer? Not in the playoffs.

Better leader? Not sure about that...

Better defender? Nope...not at all.
kobe's leadership has always been questioned. from phil to brian shaw, to most guys who thought he was a loner.

sure, shaq was a clown, but his teammates never questioned his actual leadership.

horry on shaq & kobe:

We weren’t worried. If Shaq would have went down, that would have been an issue. We felt that with Kobe out, no disrespect to Kobe, but we could fill in with B-Shaw [Brian Shaw] and Rick and all the other guys. When you take away size like Shaq, that would have been difficult.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan

:applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Hah. Kobe literally has no case over Shaq.

None.

[Micku]

Better defender? Nope...not at all.

Hmm...you think so, huh? I would've thought you would've agreed to that.

This is a bit weird for me.

In 2000, I think that was Kobe best defensive year and that was also Shaq's best defensive year as well. Shaq was more impactful defensively and could help the team more due to his paint presence. Kobe was also great and was the team best perimeter defender.

If you had to choose which one was the most important defensively, it was Shaq. The stats suggest it through plus/minus that the team suffered without him the most. It's still hard to compare what you could defensively with a perimeter player over a center tho. Perimeter players are rarely as important or impactful as centers/pf who could lock down the paint.

[mehyaM24]

LAL with Shaq in 2001: 51-23 (69%)
LAL without Shaq in 2001: 5-3 (63%)
57 wins versus 52 wins.

LAL with Shaq in 2002: 51-16 (76%)
LAL without Shaq in 2002: 7-8 (47%)
62 wins versus 38.

LAL with Shaq in 2003: 45-22 (67%)
LAL without Shaq in 2003: 5-10 (33%)
55 wins versus 27.

LAL with Shaq in 2004: 49-18 (73%)
LAL without Shaq in 2004: 7-8 (47%)
60 wins versus 38.

MIA with Shaq in 2005: 53-20 (73%)
MIA without Shaq in 2005: 6-3 (67%)
60 wins versus 55.

MIA with Shaq in 2006: 42-17 (71%)
MIA without Shaq in 2007: 10-13 (43%)
58 wins versus 35.

credit to rr for these stats - the lakers w/l records with & without shaq.

various mvp's, titles and elite play spanning across 2 decades - this guy's career has been majestic. amazing longevity, and unreal prime & peak play.

[Budadiiii]

People forget how dominant Oscar...
You don't even know his ****ing name.

Who is Oscar Robinson?

[TheMarkMadsen]

What did Shaq do without Kobe?

What did Kobe do without Shaq?

exactly

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe made 3 straight finals without Shaq..

Kobe won b2b rings and FMVPS without..

What did Shaq do without Kobe..

[RightToCensor]

Don't argue with me boy, I'm Illuminati. I run shit, what ever I say is fact.

http://i.gyazo.com/93369bad47446d8a8bc9b668c2032926.png

[mehyaM24]

What did Shaq do without Kobe?

What did Kobe do without Shaq?

exactly
what did jordan do without pippen & pippen do without jordan?

exactly

:hammerhead:


Kobe made 3 straight finals without Shaq..

Kobe won b2b rings and FMVPS without..

What did Shaq do without Kobe..

when they were paired together, shaq was the better of the two, evidenced by impact data & all the mvp's he was rewarded.

[oarabbus]

Would anyone REALLY take Duncan over Shaq if thery were in the same draft?

[TheMarkMadsen]

what did jordan do without pippen & pippen do without jordan?

exactly

:hammerhead:

Jordan never had another all nba caliber player beside him besides Pippen, Shaq had Penny and Wade..


so ill ask again, what did Shaq do without Kobe

[TheMarkMadsen]

what did jordan do without pippen & pippen do without jordan?

exactly

:hammerhead:



when they were paired together, shaq was the better of the two, evidenced by impact data & all the mvp's he was rewarded.

cool, too bad their career didn't end in 2004

[mehyaM24]

Jordan never had another all nba caliber player beside him besides Pippen, Shaq had Penny and Wade..


so ill ask again, what did Shaq do without Kobe
you're not using context,so why should i?

jordan never won a playoff series without pippen. pippen won various playoff series and conference finals without jordan. the end.

[RightToCensor]

I'm pretty sure Jordan put up All-Time great numbers away from Scottie and was deemed GOAT before he even won a championship.

[DMAVS41]

What did Shaq do without Kobe?

What did Kobe do without Shaq?

exactly

Shaq did an awful lot without Kobe though...I mean...it's not like Shaq just had no success and wasn't dominating before and even after Kobe.

He made the finals in his 3rd year in the league while averaging 26/12/3 60% TS and beat Michael Jordan in a playoff series...the only star player to go against a MJ led team from 91 through 98 and walk off the court a winner.

Shaq, just like Kobe, would have been an all time great if they never played together. They both helped each other win rings and have success.

Considering Shaq was the better player...I think this comparison just yields a simple and easy answer.

[mehyaM24]

cool, too bad their career didn't end in 2004
so you agree that shaq>kobe when they were both lakers?

[TheMarkMadsen]

you're not using context,so why should i?

jordan never won a playoff series without pippen. pippen won various playoff series and conference finals without jordan. the end.

i am using context you're just getting owned and are trying to dodge the question

Shaq enough talent around him to compete for titles multiple times without Kobe..

Jordan never had enough talent around him to compete with titles without Pippen

Penny was first team all nba with Shaq, Jordan never had another first team nba player beside him besides Pippen.

[ralph_i_el]

Jordan never had another all nba caliber player beside him besides Pippen, Shaq had Penny and Wade..


so ill ask again, what did Shaq do without Kobe
Won a ring when Kobe was a bench player who couldn't grow facial hair...

[DMAVS41]

I'm pretty sure Jordan put up All-Time great numbers away from Scottie and was deemed GOAT before he even won a championship.

And what the **** do you think Shaq was doing before Kobe became relevant.

Kobe didn't really become relevant until 00...99 at the earliest.

Shaq from 93 to 98 was a 27/12/3 player that had already made the finals. LOL

[TheMarkMadsen]

Shaq did an awful lot without Kobe though...I mean...it's not like Shaq just had no success and wasn't dominating before and even after Kobe.

He made the finals in his 3rd year in the league while averaging 26/12/3 60% TS and beat Michael Jordan in a playoff series...the only star player to go against a MJ led team from 91 through 98 and walk off the court a winner.

Shaq, just like Kobe, would have been an all time great if they never played together. They both helped each other win rings and have success.

Considering Shaq was the better player...I think this comparison just yields a simple and easy answer.

Okay but who did more without the other?

Kobe without Shaq: 3 finals & 2 FMVPS, 2 rings

Shaq without Kobe: 2 finals & 0 FMVPS, 1 ring

and Shaq had multiple other All NBA guards around him throughout his career

@ LOL at using 95 as "Shaq beat Jordan"

[TheMarkMadsen]

Won a ring when Kobe was a bench player who couldn't grow facial hair...

which year did Shaq win a title when Kobe was a bench player..

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Shaq enough talent around him to compete for titles multiple times without Kobe..

Jordan never had enough talent around him to compete with titles without Pippen

Penny was first team all nba with Shaq, Jordan never had another first team nba player beside him besides Pippen.
Except, Shaq faced better competition without Kobe than Kobe did without Shaq. Especially in Orlando when going through Jordan's Bulls and Hakeem's Rockets.

You already knew that though. Kobetards gonna tard.

[DMAVS41]

Okay but who did more without the other?

Kobe without Shaq: 3 finals & 2 FMVPS, 2 rings

Shaq without Kobe: 2 finals & 0 FMVPS, 1 ring

and Shaq had multiple other All NBA guards around him throughout his career

But Shaq didn't have the kind of team pre Kobe...outside of 95 really...to do much.

I mean...you act like Shaq wasn't already dominating both pre and after Kobe.

Not to mention if Wade doesn't get hurt in 05 (when Shaq was a ****ing beast...the last year we saw dominant Shaq)...he would have definitely made the finals and a title was possible.

It's a bad argument because Shaq did so much more than Kobe when they were together as well.

Shaq - 3 titles, 4 finals, 3 fmvp's, 1 regular season mvps

Kobe - 3 titles, 4 finals, 0 fmvp's, 0 regular season mvps

Just a bad argument all around.

[mehyaM24]

so you agree that shaq>kobe when they were both lakers?
sidestepping my question like a prime deion sanders. :lol

[RightToCensor]

Shaq was always known as an elite (and to some extent unguardable) player during his day. His defense on the other hand was what caused him to get swept by Hakeem Olajuwon and the Houston Rockets.

Jordan was undeniably the best player on both sides of the ball during his pre-championship days. Shaq was never the best player in the league until Jordan retired in 1998 (let alone the best player in the Eastern Conference until he went to LAL).

[TheMarkMadsen]

sidestepping my question like a prime deion sanders. :lol

i didn't see your post because i'm too busy responding to all the other morons who's alarm went off when a Kobe> Shaq post was made on ISH

of course Shaq was better than Kobe when they were both on the Lakers..?

But what does that have to do with what they did without each other since that was the topic of conversation?

[mehyaM24]

of course Shaq was better than Kobe when they were both on the Lakers.

case closed brah. this is why context is sooo important. when we factor in that shaq was premium in miami & orlando, his laker career added in just trumps kobe's overall career. kobe was a good player, so its no slight to him. a fringe top 10-15 player is an achievement in itself....

:cheers:

[stalkerforlife]

Shaq played in 80+ games only twice in his career. He only played 70+ games another 4 years.

Dude took so many breaks with weak injuries throughout his career.

[TheMarkMadsen]

But Shaq didn't have the kind of team pre Kobe...outside of 95 really...to do much.

I mean...you act like Shaq wasn't already dominating both pre and after Kobe.

Not to mention if Wade doesn't get hurt in 05 (when Shaq was a ****ing beast...the last year we saw dominant Shaq)...he would have definitely made the finals and a title was possible.

It's a bad argument because Shaq did so much more than Kobe when they were together as well.

Shaq - 3 titles, 4 finals, 3 fmvp's, 1 regular season mvps

Kobe - 3 titles, 4 finals, 0 fmvp's, 0 regular season mvps

Just a bad argument all around.

honestly.. why are you moving the goal post? I mean, it's your famous go to move on ISH where you just create arguments for yourself to argue against..but damn.. stay on point..

the whole reason you reason you responded to me is because I said Kobe did more without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe, so what does who was the better player when they were together have to do with anything?

my post that you initially responded to


What did Shaq do without Kobe?

What did Kobe do without Shaq?

exactly

so again, i'll ask what do their performances while playing with each other have to do with their how they fared without each other?

Kobe w/o Shaq = 3 finals, 2 rings, 2 FMVPS, 1 MVP, 14x all NBA

Shaq w/o Kobe = 2 finals. 1 rings, 0 FMVPS, 0 MVPS, 6x all NBA

Clearly Kobe was more successful without Shaq than Shaq was without Kobe

and If Shaq's name was next to Kobe's accomplishments in that comparison anybody saying Kobe had a better career WITHOUT Shaq would be getting laughed out of the thread.

[mehyaM24]

Shaq played in 80+ games only twice in his career. He only played 70+ games another 4 years.

Dude took so many breaks with weak injuries throughout his career.
he made up for that by being utterly dominant in the playoffs.

best postseason player of his generation - no question.

[gts]

He should have a long career.. he rested enough in the offseason and training camp


Shaq doesn't get into the top ten because he cheated the game, never took it as serious as he should have... coming into camps year after year out of shape, waiting until the last minute to have off season procedures done... coasting through the early part of the season... blah... could have been the GOAT if he had the balls to dedicate himself to his craft.. you have guys in the top ten that gave the sport everything they had, Shaq didn't and to suggest he belongs in the top 10 is a slap in the face of the guys who actually belong there

Last few years of his career were a complete joke bouncing from team to team trying to ride others coattails

[TheMarkMadsen]

case closed brah. this is why context is sooo important. when we factor in that shaq was premium in miami & orlando, his laker career added in just trumps kobe's overall career. kobe was a good player, so its no slight to him. a fringe top 10-15 player is an achievement in itself....

:cheers:

Kobe w/o Shaq = 3 finals, 2 rings, 2 FMVPS, 1 MVP, 14x all NBA

Shaq w/o Kobe = 2 finals. 1 rings, 0 FMVPS, 0 MVPS, 6x all NBA

Clearly Kobe was more successful without Shaq than Shaq was without Kobe

there is no argument for Shaq having a better career without Kobe than Kobe did without Shaq..

Kobe double's Shaqs rings, FMVPS, and All NBA selections

[DMAVS41]

honestly.. why are you moving the goal post? I mean, it's your famous go to move on ISH where you just create arguments for yourself to argue against..but damn.. stay on point..

the whole reason you reason you responded to me is because I said Kobe did more without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe, so what does who was the better player when they were together have to do with anything?

my post that you initially responded to



so again, i'll ask what do their performances while playing with each other have to do with their how they fared without each other?

Kobe w/o Shaq = 3 finals, 2 rings, 2 FMVPS, 1 MVP, 14x all NBA

Shaq w/o Kobe = 2 finals. 1 rings, 0 FMVPS, 0 MVPS, 6x all NBA

Clearly Kobe was more successful without Shaq than Shaq was without Kobe

and If Shaq's name was next to Kobe's accomplishments in that comparison anybody saying Kobe had a better career WITHOUT Shaq would be getting laughed out of the thread.


Because you acted like it should be the deal breaker or something. Which is nonsense.

I addressed your shitty argument first, then I offered you the corollary to it by posting Shaq vs Kobe when they played together.

Not hard to follow and not moving the goal posts at all.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe w/o Shaq = 3 finals, 2 rings, 2 FMVPS, 1 MVP, 14x all NBA

Shaq w/o Kobe = 2 finals. 1 rings, 0 FMVPS, 0 MVPS, 6x all NBA

Clearly Kobe was more successful without Shaq than Shaq was without Kobe

there is no argument for Shaq having a better career without Kobe than Kobe did without Shaq..

Kobe double's Shaqs rings, FMVPS, and All NBA selections

Kobe did not make 14 all nba teams without Shaq...

What the **** are you talking about?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He should have a long career.. he rested enough in the offseason and training camp


Shaq doesn't get into the top ten because he cheated the game, never took it as serious as he should have... coming into camps year after year out of shape, waiting until the last minute to have off season procedures done... coasting through the early part of the season... blah... could have been the GOAT if he had the balls to dedicate himself to his craft.. you have guys in the top ten that gave the sport everything they had, Shaq didn't and to suggest he belongs in the top 10 is a slap in the face of the guys who actually belong there

Last few years of his career were a complete joke bouncing from team to team trying to ride others coattails

ROFL.. Am I in the ****ing twilight zone? So because Shaq didn't fulfill his GOAT potential, he isn't a Top 10 player now?

[DMAVS41]

What did Shaq do without Kobe?

What did Kobe do without Shaq?

exactly

I am quoting this to show you what you said.

This isn't about what they did without each other...that isn't the debate.

That is actually you shifting the goal posts.

The real debate was Shaq vs Kobe overall...this with or without each other is a red herring by you to distract from the real debate.

And even then it's a shitty argument because it ignores all the context that we tried to show you. Like Shaq being a beast without Kobe in his own right...and the ages of the two players when they played with and without each other...etc.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Because you acted like it should be the deal breaker or something. Which is nonsense.

I addressed your shitty argument first, then I offered you the corollary to it by posting Shaq vs Kobe when they played together.

Not hard to follow and not moving the goal posts at all.

so it's a "shitty argument" to say that Kobe had a better career without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe..

:lol you're a joke..


and no, I didn't act like it was a deal breaker, I posed the question, your hatred of Kobe projected that.. because of course anybody giving props to Kobe or playing devils advocate on the subject is claiming Kobe>> :rolleyes:

my claim was that Kobe did better without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe.. which is fact, and you can project that to mean whatever you want it too, but don't change the conversation to their entire careers when I'm simply talking about what they did without each other and nothing else

[coin24]

Shaq MDE:bowdown:

You can tell the posters that never watched prime Shaq.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe did not make 14 all nba teams without Shaq...

What the **** are you talking about?

calm down dude, I was just coming to correct that since I accidently added in a few all d teams b/c i was looking at Wikepedia

Kobe has 9 all nba team selections without Shaq, which is still more than Shaq so my point still stands

[DMAVS41]

so it's a "shitty argument" to say that Kobe had a better career without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe..

:lol you're a joke..


and no, I didn't act like it was a deal breaker, I posed the question, your hatred of Kobe projected that.. because of course anybody giving props to Kobe or playing devils advocate on the subject is claiming Kobe>> :rolleyes:

my claim was that Kobe did better without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe.. which is fact, and you can project that to mean whatever you want it too, but don't change the conversation to their entire careers when I'm simply talking about what they did without each other and nothing else


You posted it as the deal breaker...i just showed the post again...clown.

And please stop lying about shit like the above. Kobe did not make 14 all nba teams without Shaq. I think he made 9 iirc. But not ****ing 14.

It's not even a remotely fair comparison...and it makes no sense. Kobe played most of his peak/prime without Shaq...while Shaq played a good portion of his prime....and definitely his peak with Kobe.

Do you not see how stupid it is to compare them with and without each other like you are? It really just is a flawed argument both ways...like I said from the jump.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I am quoting this to show you what you said.

This isn't about what they did without each other...that isn't the debate.
.

this is what I said..


What did Shaq do without Kobe?

What did Kobe do without Shaq?

exactly


That's all i said, that's all i've said ITT, you are talking about their entire careers? Cool, i'm bringing up what they did without eachother..

if that isn't relevant to the thread then move the **** on and don't reply,

if you're going to respond to my comment, then I expect you to respond to what I said not change the conversation into "durr Kobe didn't have a better career without Shaq because of what they did together.."

:biggums: :biggums:

I'm not making an argument about their entire careers, I simply wanted to talk about what they did without each other, if you want to turn it into something other than that.. then take your long winded, goal post changing self to another poster

[mehyaM24]

You posted it as the deal breaker...i just showed the post again...clown.

And please stop lying about shit like the above. Kobe did not make 14 all nba teams without Shaq. I think he made 9 iirc. But not ****ing 14.

It's not even a remotely fair comparison...and it makes no sense. Kobe played most of his peak/prime without Shaq...while Shaq played a good portion of his prime....and definitely his peak with Kobe.

Do you not see how stupid it is to compare them with and without each other like you are? It really just is a flawed argument both ways...like I said from the jump.
this.

as i said, shaq was premium without kobe. in orlando, shaq put up better impact numbers than kobe ever has. in miami, his impact went beyond measure as he helped another team win a title despite being past his prime.

when you combine what he's done with the lakers (along with the better competition shaq faced, as another poster mentioned), the more i think about it, the more shaq being better than kobe career wise is even stronger.

you cant compare a fringe top 10-15 player to a MDE (shaq) candidate anyway. :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

You posted it as the deal breaker...i just showed the post again...clown.

And please stop lying about shit like the above. Kobe did not make 14 all nba teams without Shaq. I think he made 9 iirc. But not ****ing 14.

It's not even a remotely fair comparison...and it makes no sense. Kobe played most of his peak/prime without Shaq...while Shaq played a good portion of his prime....and definitely his peak with Kobe.

Do you not see how stupid it is to compare them with and without each other like you are? It really just is a flawed argument both ways...like I said from the jump.


Where did I say that was the deal breaker ITT?

:lol :lol

You saw that comment, and since you hate Kobe so much you projected it to mean more than it did..

I was just bringing a different angle to the debate

[DMAVS41]

this is what I said..




That's all i said, that's all i've said ITT, you are talking about their entire careers? Cool, i'm bringing up what they did without eachother..

if that isn't relevant to the thread then move the **** on and don't reply,

if you're going to respond to my comment, then I expect you to respond to what I said not change the conversation into "durr Kobe didn't have a better career without Shaq because of what they did together.."

:biggums: :biggums:

I'm not making an argument about their entire careers, I simply wanted to talk about what they did without each other, if you want to turn it into something other than that.. then take your long winded, goal post changing self to another poster

And their entire careers was what we were debating....exactly.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Won a ring when Kobe was a bench player who couldn't grow facial hair...

still waiting to find out about the year Shaq won a ring when Kobe was a bench player

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[Prime_Shaq]

Shaq is top 5 goat based on his peak alone. Kobe's peak play doesn't even come close. Shaq > Kobe

[Wade's Rings]

Glad Wade got him his 4th Ring.

[RightToCensor]

Shaq is top 5 goat based on his peak alone. Kobe's peak play doesn't even come close. Shaq > Kobe
I guess Kevin Durant is top five as well seeing his peak season has higher Win Shares than Shaq.

Get out my thread little kid. Grown ups are talking

[Prime_Shaq]

I guess Kevin Durant is top five as well seeing his peak season has higher Win Shares than Shaq.

Get out my thread little kid. Grown ups are talking
Shaq's peak = 3peat
Durant's peak = 1 Finals appearance

[mehyaM24]

I guess Kevin Durant is top five as well seeing his peak season has higher Win Shares than Shaq.

Get out my thread little kid. Grown ups are talking
winshares are a team stat, which doesn't adjust for teammates. much like ortg/drtg.

rpm & rapm adjust for teammates and strength of opposition. its no coincidence shaq destroys durant in both stats.

either leave my thread, or i will report your trolling. there will be no grey area.

[kennethgriffin]

the reason why people dont appreciate shaqs above average longevity is because he finally put it all together ( the physical and the mental aspect ) in 2000 and his body fell off in 2003 when he gained 60 pounds ( going from 290 to 350 )


so we look at shaqs career as underachieved. he didnt want it bad enough. got complacent and lazy

"i heal on company time" ( refering to his toe injury that he waited till training camp to get surgery for instead of right after the finals... ) because he "was injured on company time"

shaq was overweight. saying things like "if you dont feed the dog. the dog wont guard the house" and "kobe cant win without me" and "i want 30 million or trade me"


so his career wasnt really eye candy. which is why we look back at him as a "what if" player.. instead of a "wow look at that" guy

[Wade's Rings]

the reason why people dont appreciate shaqs above average longevity is because he finally put it all together ( the physical and the mental aspect ) in 2000 and his body fell off in 2003 when he gained 60 pounds ( going from 290 to 350 )


so we look at shaqs career as underachieved. he didnt want it bad enough. got complacent and lazy

"i heal on company time" ( refering to his toe injury that he waited till training camp to get surgery for instead of right after the finals... ) because he "was injured on company time"

shaq was overweight. saying things like "if you dont feed the dog. the dog wont guard the house" and "kobe cant win without me" and "i want 30 million or trade me"


so his career wasnt really eye candy. which is why we look back at him as a "what if" player.. instead of a "wow look at that" guy

Got to agree, this was a Huge Factor.

[RightTwoCensor]

What Durant did for his team in 2014 coped with the stats he put up was just as impressive as what Shaq did in 2000 who had a fierce Kobe Bryant by his side. His years after were underwelming, so you can't consider his years in Los Angeles his peak years when he's on and off on his production. Shaq's 2nd best year went all the way back to 1994. If he'd stayed focused on being the best player in the league instead of expecting championships and success to be handed to him he'd have been better than he was.

Pure laziness. If I had the choice to draft Shaq or Kobe knowing how they both commit to basketball on and off the court I'd draft Kobe.

[mehyaM24]

drafting kobe = less finals appearances as the lead dog.

:confusedshrug:

[Hey Yo]

Shaq showed he could succeed outside of the triangle offense early and late in his career.

Kobe had the chance to do so, but demanded a trade after 3yrs outside Phil and the triangle.

[RightTwoCensor]

drafting kobe = less finals appearances as the lead dog.

:confusedshrug:
Simpleton.

Who cares about Finals Appearance. Kobe's longevity is greater than Shaq's. If you're offense is centered around you you're expected to be the best player on the floor. Funny thing is that Shaq was never the general on the team, it was either Kobe or one of the veterans. Shaq was always in his own world focused on himself.

[RightTwoCensor]

Shaq showed he could succeed outside of the triangle offense early and late in his career.

Kobe had the chance to do so, but demanded a trade after 3yrs outside Phil and the triangle.
One player was surrounded by Penny Hardaway and Dwyane Wade and Steve Nash and Lebron James and Paul Pierce and Kevin Garrett and Ray Allen, the other by Luke Walton and Kwame Brown. I swear this isn't rocket science for you idiots.

[Hey Yo]

One player was surrounded by Penny Hardaway and Dwyane Wade and Steve Nash and Lebron James and Paul Pierce and Kevin Garrett and Ray Allen, the other by Luke Walton and Kwame Brown. I swear this isn't rocket science for you idiots.
What happen with Kobe after the 2011 season when Phil left....again?

[mehyaM24]

Simpleton.

Who cares about Finals Appearance. Kobe's longevity is greater than Shaq's. If you're offense is centered around you you're expected to be the best player on the floor. Funny thing is that Shaq was never the general on the team, it was either Kobe or one of the veterans. Shaq was always in his own world focused on himself.
"who cares about actually making the finals?" lol

kobe's longevity has rendered him less mvps, less alpha rings, less finals appearances as the lead dog, worse stats, worse playoff stats, worse advanced stats, less domination, more chokes, with a worse net impact (shaq's teams do worse without him on the court than kobe's do without him).

the only way somebody drafts kobe>shaq is being clinically brain dead. then again you probably couldn't function being brain dead, so lets say close to that. we'll go with retarded.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Totally agree with the OP. Diesel's longevity is very underrated.

Say he's lazy or whatever the **** you wanna call him but the man had great longevity and at his best dominated like few did/could, if any.

[mehyaM24]

Totally agree with the OP. Diesel's longevity is very underrated.

Say he's lazy or whatever the **** you wanna call him but the man had great longevity and at his best dominated like few did/could, if any.
:cheers:

[tpols]

His longevity is kinda hurt by all the team hopping and ring chasing he did.. like he was jumping to the hottest team every year.. Goes to play with peak wade.. then goes to play with peak nash after mvp seasons.. then goes to play with peak bran.. then goes to play with big 3 celtics.. and he only has one ring to show for it that he was completely carried to.


His leadership was poor and his game was very rigid.. it didn't fit well as a secondary piece in his old age.. you can't tell me that old man duncan for instance doesn't win some rings playing with bran or nash or the cethics .. because Duncan's old man game is very very flexible. He can give great impact in smaller roles. He can lead. Shaq cant. I think the same can be said of dirk and Kareem and even wilt who could fully commit to being a passing and defensive machine instead of just "gimme my offense!" like shaq.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

His longevity is kinda hurt by all the team hopping and ring chasing he did.. like he was jumping to the hottest team every year.. Goes to play with peak wade.. then goes to play with peak nash after mvp seasons.. then goes to play with peak bran.. then goes to play with big 3 celtics.. and he only has one ring to show for it that he was completely carried to.


His leadership was poor and his game was very rigid.. it didn't fit well as a secondary piece in his old age.. you can't tell me that old man duncan for instance doesn't win some rings playing with bran or nash or the cethics .. because Duncan's old man game is very very flexible. He can give great impact in smaller roles. He can lead. Shaq cant. I think the same can be said of dirk and Kareem and even wilt who could fully commit to being a passing and defensive machine instead of just "gimme my offense!" like shaq.

People forget that Shaq was drafted and played in 1992. Not 1996/97 like Duncan and Kobe.

That's about 4 or 5 less seasons. It's a bit jaded and shortsided to hold Shaq to the same standard, in my opinion. You remove those last 4-5 years and that brings you to the 2006-07 season, where Shaq was highly productive and adjusted to both the Heat and Phoenix systems.

Kobe OTH, has shown to be one-dimensional in that regard. Without Phil's triangle and system in place, his playoff success has been...well non existent. Just saying.

[JohnFreeman]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Oscar Robinson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant

5-7 is interchangeable
9-12 is interchangeable (adding Lebron and Shaq)
:facepalm

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Okay but who did more without the other?

Kobe without Shaq: 3 finals & 2 FMVPS, 2 rings

Shaq without Kobe: 2 finals & 0 FMVPS, 1 ring

and Shaq had multiple other All NBA guards around him throughout his career

@ LOL at using 95 as "Shaq beat Jordan"
I don't have a dog in this race, I switch up Kobe/shaq all the time in my all-time rankings.... BUT, I'll say this:

Shaq spent his peak playing alongside Kobe. So examining " what he did without Kobe" will yield a pretty skewed result, because he happened to be at his very best from 99-03. Whereas Kobes peak didn't occur until later.

[RightToCensor]

:facepalm
What exactly is wrong?

[DonDadda59]

Pretty remarkable when you consider his behemoth size. Being 7'1" and 320+ lbs would be rough on your knees/legs working an office job. But being a basketball player, and a dominant one tasked with being the #1 option for the vast majority of your career on top of that makes matters 1000X worse. Just look at the likes of Greg Oden, Yao Ming, etc.

Shaq was just a genetic freak through and through.

[guy]

The what did they do without each other argument is so incredibly lame. Kobe being more successful without Shaq then Shaq was without him has pretty much everything to do with timing as opposed to anything else.

They both pretty much have 14 elite seasons, 93-06 for Shaq and 00-13 for Kobe. Shaq played 8 of those with Kobe and Kobe played 5 of those with Shaq. Kobe had better chances to do more without Shaq. Has nothing to do with each other. Not surprisingly, their elite seasons both came from the ages of 21 to 34. And on top of that, the 95 and 96 Magic more then likely beat both the 09 Magic and 10 Celtics, while the 09 and 10 Lakers more then likely lose to the 95 Rockets and 96 Bulls. Shit, maybe the 05 Heat would've won in 09 or 10 as well while those Laker teams might've not won in 05. Like I said, timing. Completely stupid argument.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I don't have a dog in this race, I switch up Kobe/shaq all the time in my all-time rankings.... BUT, I'll say this:

Shaq spent his peak playing alongside Kobe. So examining " what he did without Kobe" will yield a pretty skewed result, because he happened to be at his very best from 99-03. Whereas Kobes peak didn't occur until later.

I've always felt that it was weird how people consider Shaq's peak begins at the exact point Kobe made the jump to elite player and ends at the exact point Kobe gets injured for the playoffs.

It's not like Shaq was working hard on his game every summer adding new things his arsenal, he was always pretty much what he was.

Side note if 99 had been a regular season I wouldn't be surprised if LA 4peats. Give Kobe and Shaq an entire season to gel before the playoffs and Kobe time to find his role on the team. who knows

[game3524]

I've always felt that it was weird how people consider Shaq's peak begins at the exact point Kobe made the jump to elite player and ends at the exact point Kobe gets injured for the playoffs.

It's not like Shaq was working hard on his game every summer adding new things his arsenal, he was always pretty much what he was.

Side note if 99 had been a regular season I wouldn't be surprised if LA 4peats. Give Kobe and Shaq an entire season to gel before the playoffs and Kobe time to find his role on the team. who knows

Not really surprising.

Kobe became Kobe when Shaq was 27-28, an age when most guys peak.

[DatAsh]

so it's a "shitty argument" to say that Kobe had a better career without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe..

:lol you're a joke..


and no, I didn't act like it was a deal breaker, I posed the question, your hatred of Kobe projected that.. because of course anybody giving props to Kobe or playing devils advocate on the subject is claiming Kobe>> :rolleyes:

my claim was that Kobe did better without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe.. which is fact, and you can project that to mean whatever you want it too, but don't change the conversation to their entire careers when I'm simply talking about what they did without each other and nothing else


Who do you think was the better player overall, Shaq or Kobe?

[TheMarkMadsen]

The what did they do without each other argument is so incredibly lame. Kobe being more successful without Shaq then Shaq was without him has pretty much everything to do with timing as opposed to anything else.

They both pretty much have 14 elite seasons, 93-06 for Shaq and 00-13 for Kobe. Shaq played 8 of those with Kobe and Kobe played 5 of those with Shaq. Kobe had better chances to do more without Shaq. Has nothing to do with each other. Not surprisingly, their elite seasons both came from the ages of 21 to 34. And on top of that, the 95 and 96 Magic more then likely beat both the 09 Magic and 10 Celtics, while the 09 and 10 Lakers more then likely lose to the 95 Rockets and 96 Bulls. Shit, maybe the 05 Heat would've won in 09 or 10 as well while those Laker teams might've not won in 05. Like I said, timing. Completely stupid argument.

great argument, instead of looking at what actually did happen, let's look at hypotheticals and time travel scenarios.

what I think you forgot about while typing this compelling argument is that the 95 Magic and 09/10 Celtics play in the same conference, so even if they do beat those teams they've got to still win the finals. Which is now two hypothetical wins

and I would say lets pretend and put the Magic in the west, but then that ****s up the playoff seeding and the entire regular season.

and if we take the Lakers and put them back in 95/96 this means the 3pt line is shortened, and the Lakers best player is infamous for loving the long 2 which now becomes a 3. Entire different sets of rules etc etc..

just a dumb way to look at things

[DatAsh]

Totally agree with the OP. Diesel's longevity is very underrated.

Say he's lazy or whatever the **** you wanna call him but the man had great longevity and at his best dominated like few did/could, if any.

Agreed. Shaq had incredible longevity.

[game3524]

Who do you think was the better player overall, Shaq or Kobe?

I know you didn't ask me, but what the hell:oldlol:

Shaq was the better player and that is no knock on Kobe(peak Shaq might be the best player of all-time), but in terms of all-time rankings, I would have Kobe higher.

I just can't get over Shaq's career post 2007........

[DatAsh]

Shaq's lack of success outside of the three peat is a legitimate criticism imo, given the help that he had.

I don't think it's fair to compare Kobe without Shaq vs Shaq without Kobe though. Shaq peaked while they were together, while Kobe peaked when they were apart.

[guy]

great argument, instead of looking at what actually did happen, let's look at hypotheticals and time travel scenarios.

what I think you forgot about while typing this compelling argument is that the 95 Magic and 09/10 Celtics play in the same conference, so even if they do beat those teams they've got to still win the finals. Which is now two hypothetical wins

and I would say lets pretend and put the Magic in the west, but then that ****s up the playoff seeding and the entire regular season.

and if we take the Lakers and put them back in 95/96 this means the 3pt line is shortened, and the Lakers best player is infamous for loving the long 2 which now becomes a 3. Entire different sets of rules etc etc..

just a dumb way to look at things

The comparison isn't that complicated or hard to understand. But clearly you feel the need to make it seem that way cause you must have no argument. :oldlol:

Yea, taking into account circumstances is a dumb way to look at things. :hammerhead:

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Shaq's lack of success outside of the three peat is a legitimate criticism imo, given the help that he had.

I don't think it's fair to compare Kobe without Shaq vs Shaq without Kobe though. Shaq peaked while they were together, while Kobe peaked when they were apart.
Winning a ring as a #2 and losing to peak hakeem while still performing very well is reason for criticism?

[Micku]

Shaq's lack of success outside of the three peat is a legitimate criticism imo, given the help that he had.

I don't think it's fair to compare Kobe without Shaq vs Shaq without Kobe though. Shaq peaked while they were together, while Kobe peaked when they were apart.

Oooh. That's just hurtful. I don't really see that much time for him to really do anything I guess if we're talking about in his prime. I mean, he was with the Lakers for eight years. Went to the Finals with Orlando and Miami for the short time he was there.

Imo, one of the big failures in his prime would be the 98 and 99 season where the Lakers got swept. They had all star talent on their team, but couldn't get over the hump. But again, he was with young Kobe at the time.

The Magic was meh. I mean, he went to the Finals in 95. Went to the ECF in 96. Then went to the Lakers. Didn't leave until he was 32. Not much you could after that or at least it's not expected.

[oarabbus]

Pretty remarkable when you consider his behemoth size. Being 7'1" and 320+ lbs would be rough on your knees/legs working an office job. But being a basketball player, and a dominant one tasked with being the #1 option for the vast majority of your career on top of that makes matters 1000X worse. Just look at the likes of Greg Oden, Yao Ming, etc.

Shaq was just a genetic freak through and through.


Not just that either... dude regularly came into the season out of shape and overweight, working himself into shape through the season. If anyone here has let themselves get a bit fat and played bball... it's even more stressful on your joints.

[Micku]

Not just that either... dude regularly came into the season out of shape and overweight, working himself into shape through the season. If anyone here has let themselves get a bit fat and played bball... it's even more stressful on your joints.

Yup....dude could've been better than what he already was. That's saying a lot of his potential. Oh well.

[DCL]

shaq was fking ridiculous. it was like watching gorilla vs. humans