Prime Scottie Pippen and Prime Shaquille O'Neal with Phil Jackson

[Lebron23]

How many NBA titles in the 1990's??

http://www.sikids.com/sites/default/files/multimedia/photo_gallery/1008/scottie.pippen.rare.photos/images/pippen-shaq-malone.jpg

[Akrazotile]

At least 7.

Shit wouldnt even be fair.

[ZeN]

Who takes shots at the end of the games?

[Duncan21formvp]

0 titles would be worse than Penny and Shaq as at least Penny could take over games.

[Smoke117]

Who takes shots at the end of the games?

Where do you fools get this nonsense that Pippen couldn't take and make shots at the end of games? He has plenty of clutch shots in his career. Besides that whole argument is so ****ing ridiculous...the idea is to beat the other team, not keep it close and make "clutch shots" at the end. Most NBA games are not close affairs regardless of the talent of either team.

[Dragic4Life]

8-10 is a safe assumption.

[Akrazotile]

Who takes shots at the end of the games?


Guys like Horry, Kerr, Fisher, Posey, Allen, etc?

Statistically FAR more likely to actually make a shot at the end of a game than someone like Kobe :confusedshrug:

[The_Pharcyde]

These hypotheticals are so dumb and any answers is merely throwing a dart at a wall... No substance behind any answer

[Smoke117]

Guys like Horry, Fisher, Posey, Allen?

Statistically FAR more likely to actually make a shot at the end of a game than someone like Kobe :confusedshrug:

Exactly...yet Kobe is so "clutch" and a "killer" at the end of games. :rolleyes:

The lakers didn't win back 2 back championships because Kobe was "clutch". They won because they had a great team with talented players. A Shaq/Pippen core is going to be as good as any other that were in the 90s.

[ZeN]

Where do you fools get this nonsense that Pippen couldn't take and make shots at the end of games? He has plenty of clutch shots in his career. Besides that whole argument is so ****ing ridiculous...the idea is to beat the other team, not keep it close and make "clutch shots" at the end. Most NBA games are not close affairs regardless of the talent of either team.
Literally, I'm still asking OP who takes over at the end of games in that scenario. I haven't passed judgment over how well they will play or how many titles they'd win. I haven't made the argument you are speaking of.

[Akrazotile]

Literally, I'm still asking OP who takes over at the end of games in that scenario. I haven't passed judgment over how well they will play or how many titles they'd win. I haven't made the argument you are speaking of.




Who "takes over" for the Spurs?

[ZeN]

Who "takes over" for the Spurs?
I wouldn't know I don't regularly watch the spurs. I can't claim to be familiar with their every game play. If you know you should tell me so that I may be informed.

[Akrazotile]

I wouldn't know I don't regularly watch the spurs. I can't claim to be familiar with their every game play. If you know you should tell me so that I may be informed.


They maintain their team-play style even at the end of games and routinely squash teams with iso 'superstars 'who try to play heroball.

So it's likely a Pippen-Shaq team would take the same approach considering the high offensive IQ both players have.

[ZeN]

They maintain their team-play style even at the end of games and routinely squash teams with iso 'superstars 'who try to play heroball.

So it's likely a Pippen-Shaq team would take the same approach considering the high offensive IQ both players have.
Shaq has never been one to squash his ego for the sake of a team. I'd imagine he'd have a difficult time submitting to a system like the one the Spurs utilize. Shaq is famous for saying that if the big dog don't eat first then big dog won't defend. Also how long before he starts calling Pop Benedict Arnold like he did with Phil? I haven't ever heard Timmy saying half the demeaning things that Shaq has stated about his current coach/team mates.

On the plus size we know for a fact that Pip would be docile and let Shaq be the main focus so that would be a positive. He also wouldn't have to be handled by the coach and manipulated by his system like some players may be currently. Pip is definitely underrated as an all-time player.

[ClipperRevival]

Who takes shots at the end of the games?

End thread.

I love Pip but that guy gets overrated by a lot of people. He never had the iso game to be able to consistently break down a set defender and create his own shot, which is the hardest thing to do in basketball.

People yap about how MJ won nothing without Pip. Well, Pip won nothing without MJ. And guess who has "the man" during their 6 ring run? The guy who defenses had to game plan against and threw doubles/triples at every game to stop? Sure wasn't Pip. Pip never had to carry the burden of leading a team by himself. Yes, he did a solid job when MJ was out for almost two years but we saw what he was. A guy who can get about 22 ppg and give you 8 reb and 8 assists. He was a great all around player but he never had the iso game that you sometimes need from your lead dog. Especially if your lead dog is a wing player. He just never had that iso game to break down a set defender and if you think he did, you are seriously mistaken.

[Siemens]

0 titles would be worse than Penny and Shaq as at least Penny could take over games.

Well, 2000 Shaq in the 90s could have done some more damage, but no guarantees. Prime Shaq and prime Pippen in the early 2000s would be more effective though.

[ClipperRevival]

If Pip was so individually great as "the man", how come he didn't win anything without MJ? When he went to Houston at the age of 34, he had a slew of other HOFers on the team and a lot of people thought they had a legit chance at winning it all. MJ won his last ring when he was about to turn 35. Yet, Pip gets a pass for playing on stacked Houston and Blazer teams after leaving the Bulls? Where was his individual iso brilliance during that time? He just didn't have that type of iso dominant game where he could take over a game offensively if he wanted too like MJ or Kobe. And that's just a fact.

[imdaman99]

0. Pippen was not some alpha that was gonna take over in the clutch :kobe:

Can he dunk at the end of games? Yes. But he was also benching himself at the end of a playoff game. He didn't have the IT factor.

Shaq won with alpha dogs like Kobe and Wade. He might have also won with Penny if he could set his ego aside.

[riseagainst]

maybe 1 in 95. That's about it.

[97 bulls]

If Pip was so individually great as "the man", how come he didn't win anything without MJ?
Why do people make this kind of statement? Jordan was not successful without Pippen. Plain and simple. Why do we continue to act as if Pippen joined a team that was winning championships? They both needed each other.



When he went to Houston at the age of 34, he had a slew of other HOFers on the team and a lot of people thought they had a legit chance at winning it all. MJ won his last ring when he was about to turn 35. Yet, Pip gets a pass for playing on stacked Houston and Blazer teams after leaving the Bulls? Where was his individual iso brilliance during that time? He just didn't have that type of iso dominant game where he could take over a game offensively if he wanted too like MJ or Kobe. And that's just a fact.
Oh come on. Barkley and Olajuwan were old as well. Barkley and Olajuwan didn't mesh well either. And Barkley never took winning seriously in the first place.

[97 bulls]

0. Pippen was not some alpha that was gonna take over in the clutch :kobe:

Can he dunk at the end of games? Yes. But he was also benching himself at the end of a playoff game. He didn't have the IT factor.

Shaq won with alpha dogs like Kobe and Wade. He might have also won with Penny if he could set his ego aside.
Funny thing is that Pippens biggest detractors always bring up the 94 Bulls srs in an effort to show that those Bulls weren't really a legitimate 55 win team, they just won a bunch of CLOSE games. Please explain why this is the case if you feel Pip led teams couldn't win close games.

[ClipperRevival]

Why do people make this kind of statement? Jordan was not successful without Pippen. Plain and simple. Why do we continue to act as if Pippen joined a team that was winning championships? They both needed each other.



Oh come on. Barkley and Olajuwan were old as well. Barkley and Olajuwan didn't mesh well either. And Barkley never took winning seriously in the first place.

The statement that MJ never won without Pip is a layman's statement. No alpha wing player has ever won a ring with a bunch of scrubs. It doesn't work that way. Almost every title won had the same ingrdient. An alpha, a second star and a very good third player.

Does Magic win without Worthy? Or Bird without McHale? Or Kobe without Gasol? We already know the answer. But just because an alpha level player can't win without a second star doesn't really prove much of anything. There are levels to greatness. Pip is one of the best all around players ever and maybe the best wing defender ever. But that doesn't change the fact that he simply didn't have the iso game to consistently create his own shot against double teams and still carry a team offensively on a nightly basis. If he had, he would've shined when MJ retired for 2 years (prime Pip) and impose his will and been more dominant offensively when he was considered the alpha dog in Houston and Portland. But we all know he didn't have THAT level of game offensively. Tape don't lie. Pip was a jack of all traits type guy, getting his points in various ways. But when defenses focused on him, threws doubles at him and the defense was set, he didn't have the iso game to consistently create his own shot. And that's not a knock on Pip because being able to create your own shot is the hardest thing to do. That's why people who can do it are usually superstars.

[swagga]

4-5

[scm5]

End thread.

I love Pip but that guy gets overrated by a lot of people. He never had the iso game to be able to consistently break down a set defender and create his own shot, which is the hardest thing to do in basketball.

People yap about how MJ won nothing without Pip. Well, Pip won nothing without MJ. And guess who has "the man" during their 6 ring run? The guy who defenses had to game plan against and threw doubles/triples at every game to stop? Sure wasn't Pip. Pip never had to carry the burden of leading a team by himself. Yes, he did a solid job when MJ was out for almost two years but we saw what he was. A guy who can get about 22 ppg and give you 8 reb and 8 assists. He was a great all around player but he never had the iso game that you sometimes need from your lead dog. Especially if your lead dog is a wing player. He just never had that iso game to break down a set defender and if you think he did, you are seriously mistaken.

:coleman:

Haters gonna hate, ainters gonna aint.

[97 bulls]

The statement that MJ never won without Pip is a layman's statement. No alpha wing player has ever won a ring with a bunch of scrubs. It doesn't work that way. Almost every title won had the same ingrdient. An alpha, a second star and a very good third player.
I'm not arguing this. Where we disagree, is that in most of those cases, the "second star" is also good enough to lead a team to a title.

Look. Unfortunately, we will never know how Pippen would've faired had he had 10 years leading a team. But for you to say he couldn't? As if you're from a universe where Pippen was in this particular situation, is just folly. You can't list your opinion as fact. Especially when he did take over games offensively.


Does Magic win without Worthy? Or Bird without McHale? Or Kobe without Gasol? We already know the answer. But just because an alpha level player can't win without a second star doesn't really prove much of anything. There are levels to greatness. Pip is one of the best all around players ever and maybe the best wing defender ever. But that doesn't change the fact that he simply didn't have the iso game to consistently create his own shot against double teams and still carry a team offensively on a nightly basis.
What??????? Are you really trying to imply that Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong (the nujber 2 and 3 guys after Pip), were as good as Mchale and Parish? Worthy and Jabaar? Wade and Bosh? Hell even Parker and Ginobli? Come on. Just the fact that you feel Pippen should've been able to accomplish what the player you mentioned didn't, speaks volumes for Pip as a player.


If he had, he would've shined when MJ retired for 2 years (prime Pip) and impose his will and been more dominant offensively when he was considered the alpha dog in Houston and Portland.
If he would've shined????? He finished top three in the MVP and DPOY voting in 94. As well as making the all NBA and All Defense 1st teams. In 95, he finished second in the DPOY voting, and led his team in every Major category (something that has been done only four other times in the history of the NBA), anchored the number two ranked defense in the league, and ran his teams offense. That's not shining? The Bulls didn't win, because they weren't good enough. Not because Pippen wasn't good enough.

Pippen was 33/34 years old when he played in Houston and Portland. He had a bad back, and bunch of mileage on his body. He was good, but well out of his prime by then.


But we all know he didn't have THAT level of game offensively. Tape don't lie. Pip was a jack of all traits type guy, getting his points in various ways. But when defenses focused on him, threws doubles at him and the defense was set, he didn't have the iso game to consistently create his own shot. And that's not a knock on Pip because being able to create your own shot is the hardest thing to do. That's why people who can do it are usually superstars.
This is preposterous. No coach wants any of his players even attempting to try to go two on one. Michael Jordan was the greatest offensive force ever and Phil Jackson pleaded and even took the ball out if his hands in an effort to get other players involved. Come on. On of the biggest knocks on Kobe is his propensity to go two on one. You know another name for attempting a FG with two men on you? Theres two that come to mind, a bad shot, and or ill advised shot.

You want your best player taking bad/ill advised shots? I guarantee you wont be winning very many games like that.

[DonDadda59]

Why would they have any more success than Shaq's Orlando/LA teams that were stacked to the brim (Penny Hardaway, Horace Grant, and solid role players... 3 all star teammates in '98) or Pip's post Bulls super teams (healthy with Hakeem and Barkley a season after winning the 'ship as a shell of himself dealing with injuries)? Shaq didn't win anything until all the great teams and players of the 90s were either gone or on their way out despite playing with some ultra talented squads. 2000 Lakers were not as good as the '95 or '96 Magic.

[97 bulls]

Why would they have any more success than Shaq's Orlando/LA teams that were stacked to the brim (Penny Hardaway, Horace Grant, and solid role players... 3 all star teammates in '98) or Pip's post Bulls super teams (healthy with Hakeem and Barkley a season after winning the 'ship as a shell of himself dealing with injuries)? Shaq didn't win anything until all the great teams and players of the 90s were either gone or on their way out despite playing with some ultra talented squads. 2000 Lakers were not as good as the '95 or '96 Magic.
Very true. Depends on if the Bulls replace Pip with a player as impactful as he was.

[97 bulls]

But then again, if Shaq stays in Orlando, barring injuries, they were bound to beat the Bulls just due to age.

Just too much to speculate

[ClipperRevival]

97 Bulls,

This is not a dispute about his greatness. I already conceded that. This argument is about his level. Because there are levels to greatness as a wing player. At the apex, the are guys like MJ, Kobe and Wade. Dominant offensive players who could carry your team offensively, face the double teams, find the open man and elevate the level of their teammates and also the ability to play D. That's the highest level of greatness for a wing player. And I don't put Pip in that level. What wing player has won a ring as "the man" that didn't possess a great offensive game? Wade, Kobe, Bron, MJ, etc. It's a short list.

There are also levels on what part you play on championship winning teams. You have "the man", then the second fiddle, then the third wheel who is all star caliber. Then your role players. It's like this almost every year. That's why I like basketball because it's predictable.

And my opinion is that Pip never had the dominat offensive game to be "the man" on a championship winning team. He was an all around type guy who scored his points in various ways. But creating his own shot against a set defender and having the sole focus of the D and face doubles all the time and still being able to dominate offensively was something he couldn't do. And there is no shame in that because the hardest thing to do in basketball is to create your own shot against a set defense. But even if you were to be a great scorer, that's not enough. There were dominant offensive players like Melo, Wilkins, Mcgrady, etc who could score but couldn't elevate the level of his team.

So going back to what I said, at the highest level of wing players, you have guys who could not only carry you offensively but are also able to make the D pay when the double comes and set up teammates for easy buckets. And also play D at a high level. Pip just wasnt't at that level. But he was an amazing 2nd fiddle.

[97 bulls]

97 Bulls,

This is not a dispute about his greatness. I already conceded that. This argument is about his level. Because there are levels to greatness as a wing player. At the apex, the are guys like MJ, Kobe and Wade. Dominant offensive players who could carry your team offensively, face the double teams, find the open man and elevate the level of their teammates and also the ability to play D. That's the highest level of greatness for a wing player. And I don't put Pip in that level. What wing player has won a ring as "the man" that didn't possess a great offensive game? Wade, Kobe, Bron, MJ, etc. It's a short list.
No one is arguing his greatness. What we disagree on is philosophy. This isnt even about Pippen. Its about then constant hypocrisy. You fall in the same boat. Its this insane philosophy that as far as championships go, the only player that deserves credit is the teams best player. And I wouldn't even mind that so much if they also received all of the blame when their team fails. And what most asinine is that we can actually reflect on what has happened. The players you mentioned? Jordan, Bryant, Wade.....as far as winning? Sucked until they got great teams around them. I can acknowledge that. And I'm sure you do as well. So why try to trivialize the teams role in winning championships? Why is Lebron James jumping from team to team? Why di Kobe Bryant threaten no actually go on and publicly demand a trade? Because their teams weren't good enough. You talk about Pippen at 34, well what about Wade today? If hes so.great, why do the Heat suck so bad? Don't blame it on age cuz you didnt do it with Pippen. Dont blame it on talent because theres more than enough there. Inuries? Pippen had more than his.share by the time he reached Houston. You don't see the clear double standard?


There are also levels on what part you play on championship winning teams. You have "the man", then the second fiddle, then the third wheel who is all star caliber. Then your role players. It's like this almost every year. That's why I like basketball because it's predictable.
But what does that matter? If Pippen doesn't hawk down Stockton and Magic, the whole dynamic of those series could've changed. If Paxson does shoot the way he did in 91, the Bulls championship wouldve been a hell of a lot harder. You know why the Heat beat the Bulls in 2011? Because sure Rose saw consistent double teams, but his teammates Deng, Korver, Bogans, etc couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. All roles are important to winning.


And my opinion is that Pip never had the dominat offensive game to be "the man" on a championship winning team.
What? Pippen has had some awsome games during the Bulls run. And I dont see how you or anyone else can make that judgement based on one year. A year in which the Bulls exceeded
expectations. And he was in the running for the two highest honors a player can receive. And was one bad call away from another trip to the ECF. Did you really expect the Bulls to still win without Jordan?


He was an all around type guy who scored his points in various ways.
But creating his own shot against a set defender and having the sole focus of the D and face doubles all the time and still being able to dominate offensively was something he couldn't do. And there is no shame in that because the hardest thing to do in basketball is to create your own shot against a set defense.[/QUOTE]
Magic was the same way. Very seldom did he go one on one and play iso ball. That shot he hit in 87? That was drawn up for Kareem. In fact, as far as scoring ability? Magic and Pippen were very similar.


But even if you were to be a great scorer, that's not enough. There were dominant offensive players like Melo, Wilkins, Mcgrady, etc who could score but couldn't elevate the level of his team.
Again. BEACAUSE THEY DIDNT HAVE THE BEST TEAM IN LEAGUE. Look at the number two guys on their teams. Who did they have that was on the level of Pippen, Wade, Mchale, Parker, etc. You really dont see this? You think its a coincidence that the 05 and 06 Lakers were hot garbage with Kobe, but didnt become a champion until they got Odom and Gasol? Why do the Heat suck now? Please answer these two questions. And mind you. Please dont use age in Wades case because you didnt excuse Pippen. And dont utilize stats (Bryant avg 35 ppg in 06) because you've made it clear that that is all that matters. Pleae explain why your theory falls on it's face under these scenarios.