Jordan in the isolation weak era

[andgar923]

I gotta come clean, MJ did have his numbers inflated a tiny bit because he didn't face today's modern era defense.

Here are a few vids that show the defense that MJ faced.

Please take a look and notice how the lanes are always empty, which makes it easy for MJ to drive.

Pay attention to how MJ NEVER gets double nor triple teamed. It's basically all ISO all the time, with wide open lanes.

https://youtu.be/GOS1qNTWb70?list=PL63291045635C1383

https://youtu.be/bQ9dBEcI_hE?list=PL63291045635C1383

https://youtu.be/5K-qGWkiKvQ?list=PL63291045635C1383


MJ would've had a harder time in today's era.
https://youtu.be/EhPsuzUZ69U?list=PL63291045635C1383
https://youtu.be/fp__LVQvC7M?list=PL63291045635C1383
https://youtu.be/PHk-wBYNMEs

https://youtu.be/sMP-Fw9Xq88?list=PL63291045635C1383
https://youtu.be/bcARNIt8Ydk

[navy]

No gifs?

Disappointed.

[andgar923]

No gifs?

Disappointed.

I didn't wanna hurt 3Ball's feelings. Figured entire videos were better than gifs.

[asd]

Pay attention to how MJ NEVER gets double nor triple teamed.



:oldlol:

[Blue&Orange]

There are so many dumb dumb idiots on this forum that i must admit i spent some time figuring it out if OP was being ironic or being serious, second video made it clear.

First video, it's amazing how fast Jordan decides what to do, he never holds the ball, he either attacks the basket, shoot the jumper or makes an assist. Compared to the fake GOAT, the ultimate cherry picker, stat padder that holds on to the ball for the entire shotclock looking to pad some stat, and if he got nothing passes the ball to Wade\Kyrie with 4 seconds left... just by that it's hilarious people saying Jordan stats were inflated :roll:

Forget the guy that changed the rules, saying they were changed to make penetration and scoring easier, forget how every scrub can shoot behind the 3pt line leading to never seen spacing and never seen open paint.

[riseagainst]

:roll:

not a single double team found.
#insertsarcasmhere

[STATUTORY]

There are so many dumb dumb idiots on this forum that i must admit i spent some time figuring it out if OP was being ironic or being serious, second video made it clear.

First video, it's amazing how fast Jordan decides what to do, he never holds the ball, he either attacks the basket, shoot the jumper or makes an assist. Compared to the fake GOAT, the ultimate cherry picker, stat padder that holds on to the ball for the entire shotclock looking to pad some stat, and if he got nothing passes the ball to Wade\Kyrie with 4 seconds left... just by that it's hilarious people saying Jordan stats were inflated :roll:

Forget the guy that changed the rules, saying they were changed to make penetration and scoring easier, forget how every scrub can shoot behind the 3pt line leading to never seen spacing and never seen open paint.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/836550/bron1_medium.gif

[Jasper]

I gotta come clean, MJ did have his numbers inflated a tiny bit because he didn't face today's modern era defense.

MJ would've had a harder time in today's era.
https://youtu.be/EhPsuzUZ69U?list=PL63291045635C1383
https://youtu.be/fp__LVQvC7M?list=PL63291045635C1383
https://youtu.be/PHk-wBYNMEs

https://youtu.be/sMP-Fw9Xq88?list=PL63291045635C1383
https://youtu.be/bcARNIt8Ydk

Just wondering if you saw him in person :confusedshrug:
did you ever think these modern day players , playing in Jordans punishing defense , would not be effective :confusedshrug:

[andgar923]

There are so many dumb dumb idiots on this forum that i must admit i spent some time figuring it out if OP was being ironic or being serious, second video made it clear.

First video, it's amazing how fast Jordan decides what to do, he never holds the ball, he either attacks the basket, shoot the jumper or makes an assist. Compared to the fake GOAT, the ultimate cherry picker, stat padder that holds on to the ball for the entire shotclock looking to pad some stat, and if he got nothing passes the ball to Wade\Kyrie with 4 seconds left... just by that it's hilarious people saying Jordan stats were inflated :roll:

Forget the guy that changed the rules, saying they were changed to make penetration and scoring easier, forget how every scrub can shoot behind the 3pt line leading to never seen spacing and never seen open paint.

I've ALWAYS stated that when people said "Bron is a better passer".

MJ's instincts and fast decisions make him a deadlier passer.

Also to biggie back off your argument, 3Ball brought up a point that got ridiculed a few weeks ago. Which is MJ shooting and being aggressive is better for his team than Bron being passive and passing.

MJ's quick decision making while attacking opened up the game for his teammates. While Bron tends to get his teammates in bad shooting positions far more than MJ. MJ being aggressive forces the defense to collapse and he's quick at spoting an open man for an easy bucket (Pip, Pax, Grant). Bron dribbles, dribbles, dribbles... holds the ball while his teammates are basically standing there, the defense is standing there and when he makes a move the shot clock has run down a bit and f*cks up any offensive play they were gonna run.

Now... the main difference between MJ and Kobe attacking is, MJ doesn't hold the ball for as long. He's also quicker and smarter at making decisions and executing.

Bron is a f*ckin BEAST when on attack mode, perhaps even better than MJ (although I may not go that far because he still wastes too much time and doesn't attack from different positions and angles) because he's willing to pass the ball more than Kobe.

An underrated aspect in Wade's game is his ability to play like Mike and make quick decisions while being aggressive. TMac had that ability as well, although neither on MJ's level.

[riseagainst]

MJ is the GOAT.

[sdot_thadon]

Man this place really needs a Mj vs. Lebron subforum, seems like a thread about either: a)is aimed at the other or b)turns into a vs. thread. What did you hope to accomplish with this thread? That Mj faced things not present in today's game defensively? Everyone knows that. Do you know that today's game has elements Mj didn't face either?:facepalm

[andgar923]

Man this place really needs a Mj vs. Lebron subforum, seems like a thread about either: a)is aimed at the other or b)turns into a vs. thread. What did you hope to accomplish with this thread? That Mj faced things not present in today's game defensively? Everyone knows that. Do you know that today's game has elements Mj didn't face either?:facepalm

Haha... MJ faced everything Bron faced plus more.


Close your tab if you this mad.

[sdot_thadon]

Haha... MJ faced everything Bron faced plus more.


Close your tab if you this mad.
Not mad at all bro, this is ish. Just wondering how guys from my generation can act just like these kids they argue with. And really only pointing out your one sided logic. Both eras feature things not present in the other, it's been beaten over the head of this forum for some time. I don't really feel either era is more difficult because they are different. Some strategies that worked in Mj era aren't viable in this era and vise versa. Not too hard to process.

[AirFederer]

In today's advanced era MJ would at best be a poor man's Shannon Brown.

[Mass Debator]

Sarcastic thread right?

[Paul George 24]

THIS THREAD JUST OWNED LEFLOP & KOBE'S FAMILY:lol

[DonDadda59]

No gifs?

Disappointed.

:D

Just getting into the gif making racket. I can see the appeal. Some examples of advanced isolation defense from the first video:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/zXwjmS.gif

^3-2 isolation zone leads to triple team of Jordan at the top of the key and he runs into man waiting in the paint.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/CSrHmf.gif

^Strong side flood isolation zone, 3 bodies on MJ, forced to pass out.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/iQ7vsd.gif

^1-2-2 (Box and 1) isolation zone. 4 bodies waiting in the paint.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/KGA1dP.gif

^2-3 hybrid isolation zone leads to triple team.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/v-n-Ui.gif

^4 bodies clog the paint, stopping the drive, no foul. No dice.

[ClipperRevival]

Yeah, he would really suffer in this era where point guards are dominating the game and wing players are also having a free for all. Forget the fact that MJ had to go up against full court body you up D. Or that hand checks were allowed. Or that teams could absolutely murder you when you drove the lane to send a message. You can't even touch anyone in the perimeter these days. And that's exactly why PGs and wing players are dominating the game today. The rules favor them.

All this lame talk about certain zone rules and illegal defense adversely affecting the game is utter garbage. Basketball is basketball. There are some rules that can really affect a perimeter player. Like the ones I mentioned above. All the technical stuff in this paragraph is all gibber gabber bull. It tells me you might not have played the game.

MJ is the GOAT. I know it kills you LeBron fans but that won't change.

[ralph_i_el]

:D

Just getting into the gif making racket. I can see the appeal. Some examples of advanced isolation defense from the first video:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/zXwjmS.gif

^3-2 isolation zone leads to triple team of Jordan at the top of the key and he runs into man waiting in the paint.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/CSrHmf.gif

^Strong side flood isolation zone, 3 bodies on MJ, forced to pass out.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/iQ7vsd.gif

^1-2-2 (Box and 1) isolation zone. 4 bodies waiting in the paint.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/KGA1dP.gif

^2-3 hybrid isolation zone leads to triple team.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/v-n-Ui.gif

^4 bodies clog the paint, stopping the drive, no foul. No dice.


His own teammates are the ones making the paint clogged:facepalm

[andgar923]

:D

Just getting into the gif making racket. I can see the appeal. Some examples of advanced isolation defense from the first video:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/zXwjmS.gif

^3-2 isolation zone leads to triple team of Jordan at the top of the key and he runs into man waiting in the paint.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/CSrHmf.gif

^Strong side flood isolation zone, 3 bodies on MJ, forced to pass out.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/iQ7vsd.gif

^1-2-2 (Box and 1) isolation zone. 4 bodies waiting in the paint.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/KGA1dP.gif

^2-3 hybrid isolation zone leads to triple team.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/v-n-Ui.gif

^4 bodies clog the paint, stopping the drive, no foul. No dice.

What you talking bout? there's NO such thing as double and triple teamed allowed in the isolation Jordan age.

[LBJ 23]

MJ is the GOAT. I know it kills you LeBron fans but that won't change.


Not really. Which Lebron fan on here is claiming that Lebron is the GOAT besides Dragic/dubeta and all of his alts (who in reality is not a Lebron fan at all, probably just a Kobe fan or some Lebron hater who is trying to throw a bad light on all Lebron fans with his trolling.)

[Sarcastic]

The one thing those defenders didn't have though, is evolution. Modern athletes can use evolution so much better than those stone age athletes (should we even call them athletes without the evolution?).

[Im Still Ballin]

Why is it that majority of the best defenses of all time have occurred post 2001 when Illegal Defense was abolished?

?

[sportjames23]

andgar killin 'em softly. :cheers:

[Sarcastic]

Why is it that majority of the best defenses of all time have occurred post 2001 when Illegal Defense was abolished?

?

I'd argue that defenses didn't get better, rather offensive talent got worse. With the league expanding as much as it did, the talent got spread too thin. Offensive fundamentals are at all time lows in modern era. No one can hit mid range jumpers anymore. It's just 3s or dunk.


Either that or defensive evolution has gone at a faster pace than offensive evolution.

[ClipperRevival]

The one thing those defenders didn't have though, is evolution. Modern athletes can use evolution so much better than those stone age athletes (should we even call them athletes without the evolution?).

Are you referring to players from the mid-80's? If so, you are living in a fairy tale world if you think there is a drastic difference between athletes of that era and today. Across the board, is the league more athletic today than back then? Yes. But is it drastic enough where you can't compare eras. No. Mid-80's era is the "modern era" no matter how you slice it. I guess I'm getting old when I grew up watching basketball in the late 80's and thought these guys were the best athletes in the world.

You had freaks like MJ, Kemp, D. Robinson, Larry Nance, Dominique Wilkins, Drexler, etc. The talent pool was amazingly strong in the 80's and it is without the doubt the toughest era in basketball history in terms of dominant teams.

To me, when I think of "old era", I think like the 50's and 60's, when a guy like George Mikan was dominating or when the league only had 8 teams and the game wasn't popular, which meant the talent pool wasn't that strong.

[DonDadda59]

His own teammates are the ones making the paint clogged:facepalm

Scrub ass teammates (and 3-second violation's nonexistence) holding back the GOAT :facepalm

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/xyUTMW.gif

^More Bulls teammates running multiple traps and Bulls center Patrick Ewing waiting in the paint. With friends like these... amirite? :confusedshrug:

[ClipperRevival]

Why is it that majority of the best defenses of all time have occurred post 2001 when Illegal Defense was abolished?

?

I'm not a stat geek and not all into analytics. I'm old school and I've played the game for 25+ years so I rely on the eye test before any stat. But what specific stats do you speak of? Do you mean ppg allowed or some more advanced stats? I'm just curious.

[DonDadda59]

Why is it that majority of the best defenses of all time have occurred post 2001 when Illegal Defense was abolished?

?

What do you base that statement off of exactly? :confusedshrug:

[Im Still Ballin]

What do you base that statement off of exactly? :confusedshrug:
Stats

[DonDadda59]

Stats

Be more specific.

[Smoke117]

Saw it was an Andgar thread...saw it was about Jordan...knew it would be horrible stanning. Wasn't disappointed.

[Paul George 24]

Saw it was an Andgar thread...saw it was about Jordan...knew it would be horrible stanning. Wasn't disappointed.

BIRD STANS HATE JORDAN :lol

[sportjames23]

Saw it was an Andgar thread...saw it was about Jordan...knew it would be horrible stanning. Wasn't disappointed.


Smoke mad af.

You still my nigguh doe. :banana:

[Showtime80']

Great post sarcastic!

Defenses didn't magically get better from 80's into 90's, offenses became more limited an easier to stop thanks to expansion, salary cap, erosion of fundamentals and the rise in control freak coaches who got the idea that loosing games by scores of 94-86 looked better on paper and to front offices than 120-100! Artificial defense is what I call it! Pat Riley and Mike Fratello ce to mind

Look at the lineups of the teams that were champions in the 80's, the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons and Sixers, hell even teams that didn't win the title like the Bucks, Hawks, Rockets and Mavericks! What did they all have in common? 3 to 5 bonafide offensive options at ALL TIMES on the floor, guys that came off the frigging bench who could take over games for stretches!

Compare that to the 90's and beyond when it was basically duo centered offenses plus role players like the Bulls, Spurs and Lakers, the damn Rockets won the title in 1994 with basically EVERYTHING shouldering on Olajuwon! That didn't win you titles in the 1980's

You want to look at the real difference between the 80's and now? Don't need to look any further than the disparity between the modern East versus West. If you just looked at NUMBERS you would think that the East is better DEFENSIVELY but everyone knows that is not the case and in actuality the East just plays at a lower pace due to the lack of offensive firepower in comparison to West teams and it inflates their defensive numbers. What doesn't get inflated is the raping they've taking at the hands of the West for more than 10+ years and that's were you really see the "artificial" nature of the modern East's supposedly "tougher and better defense"

[DonDadda59]

Stats

You're lucky I can't neg you for a while you coward. :coleman:

[sportjames23]

You're lucky I can't neg you for a while you coward. :coleman:


I got him for you, bruh. :cheers:

[ClipperRevival]

Great post sarcastic!

Defenses didn't magically get better from 80's into 90's, offenses became more limited an easier to stop thanks to expansion, salary cap, erosion of fundamentals and the rise in control freak coaches who got the idea that loosing games by scores of 94-86 looked better on paper and to front offices than 120-100! Artificial defense is what I call it! Pat Riley and Mike Fratello ce to mind

Look at the lineups of the teams that were champions in the 80's, the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons and Sixers, hell even teams that didn't win the title like the Bucks, Hawks, Rockets and Mavericks! What did they all have in common? 3 to 5 bonafide offensive options at ALL TIMES on the floor, guys that came off the frigging bench who could take over games for stretches!

Compare that to the 90's and beyond when it was basically duo centered offenses plus role players like the Bulls, Spurs and Lakers, the damn Rockets won the title in 1994 with basically EVERYTHING shouldering on Olajuwon! That didn't win you titles in the 1980's

You want to look at the real difference between the 80's and now? Don't need to look any further than the disparity between the modern East versus West. If you just looked at NUMBERS you would think that the East is better DEFENSIVELY but everyone knows that is not the case and in actuality the East just plays at a lower pace due to the lack of offensive firepower in comparison to West teams and it inflates their defensive numbers. What doesn't get inflated is the raping they've taking at the hands of the West for more than 10+ years and that's were you really see the "artificial" nature of the modern East's supposedly "tougher and better defense"

Good post, especially your last paragraph. Yeah, if you look at the scoring allowed in the Eastern Conference over the last 10 years or so, you would think that there were a lot of great defensive teams. And there were, like the 08 Celts and 04 Pistons. But the conference as a whole was just weak and lacked talent. And that led to more grind it out games. Out in the West, the more talented teams scored more points because most teams were stacked with talent.

[ClipperRevival]

I'm not a stat geek and not all into analytics. I'm old school and I've played the game for 25+ years so I rely on the eye test before any stat. But what specific stats do you speak of? Do you mean ppg allowed or some more advanced stats? I'm just curious.

Still waiting for those specific stats.

[DonDadda59]

Good post, especially your last paragraph. Yeah, if you look at the scoring allowed in the Eastern Conference over the last 10 years or so, you would think that there were a lot of great defensive teams. And there were, like the 08 Celts and 04 Pistons. But the conference as a whole was just weak and lacked talent. And that led to more grind it out games. Out in the West, the more talented teams scored more points because most teams were stacked with talent.

Yup, to a large degree the advanced metrics, specifically DRTG are more of a measure of the offensive climate of the league than anything else IMO. That's why the 60s and 70s regularly featured ratings in the 80s-90s, FAR lower than anything we've seen post 2001. But then once an influx of ATG offensive talent came into the league from 79 onwards (think Bird, Magic... '84 alone had Hakeem, Barkley, Jordan, Stockton), DRTGs climbed drastically and offenses looked much better. Then when those guys started getting older, and to be fair defenses did start getting more physical post 88ish with the rise of the Bad Boy Pistons/Jordan rules, then ratings went down again. They were at their lowest in the modern era when there was the biggest lack of offensive talent (post Jordan era-post 2005 rule changes). Then guys like LeBron, KD, Curry, etc started coming into their own, the league became more offense friendly, etc.

Context is always key.

[Blue&Orange]

Good post, especially your last paragraph. Yeah, if you look at the scoring allowed in the Eastern Conference over the last 10 years or so, you would think that there were a lot of great defensive teams. And there were, like the 08 Celts and 04 Pistons. But the conference as a whole was just weak and lacked talent. And that led to more grind it out games. Out in the West, the more talented teams scored more points because most teams were stacked with talent.
Pacers a two years ago had insane defensive ratings, we are talking about Hibbert lol.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmZ221hCAAAn7Yu.jpg

I guess if you play more shitty teams than good teams your defensive rating will be better :confusedshrug: