I forgot the excuse for why Lebron can't dominate Kawhi

[3ball]

Well, he won't have to deal with it this year, but I figured out why Lebron can't dominate Kawhi:

Lebron is quick for his size and for a forward, but not for a guard - that's why he isn't a mismatch for frontcourt players like Kawhi Leonard or Boris Diaw the way quick guards like Westbrook, Monta Ellis or MJ would be.

Regarding MJ, Magic Johnson says it best at the 4:21 and 5:26 marks after MJ scores on Phoenix's bouncy SF (Richard Dumas) twice in a row in the 1993 Finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLLfcJhJ9wc&t=4m21s

"I'm sorry but... no way can you put a man that is not used to guarding Michael Jordan - or guarding guards - on Michael Jordan.."

In general, it always looks weird putting taller defenders on ultra-quick players - it feels like embarrassment is impending.. That's why even though Dennis Rodman won back-to-back DPOY as a SF (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374199) in 1990 and 1991, Chuck Daly could only put Rodman on MJ in spurts.. The quicknes mismatch was just too obvious - MJ made it look like a coaching blunder (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374199) when Rodman was left on him for too long.. Also, having a frontcourt player defend a guard like MJ messes up the defensive matchups for everyone else on the team - now the other team has to defend Scottie with a much shorter SG.

I guess that's why Lebron can't make mincemeat out of Kawhi the way MJ did Rodman: Lebron's a slower SF - therefore, he's not really a mismatch for frontcourt players the way players with true-guard quickness are (i.e. MJ, Westbrook, or Monta Ellis).
.

[SwayDizzle]

solid post

[imdaman99]

You don't think Kawhi would make MJ's life tough? He would. He is as good a defender as Starks, Dumars, the late Bobby Phils.

[kamil]

Great thread, 6/6 stars.

[Akrazotile]

Bran > MJ > Kobe

[iamgine]

Lebron averaged 27-10-6-2 against Kawhi in the playoff. I'd say he did okay.

[Akhenaten]

So I tried to figure it out..

Lebron is quick for his size, but he isn't a guard, so he doesn't have true guard quickness - that's why he isn't a mismatch for frontcourt players like Kawhi Leonard or Boris Diaw the way quick guards like Westbrook, Monta Ellis or MJ would be.



http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/stanleydoe/keanu-reeves-whoa.jpg

you just blew my mind with this incredible analysis dude...genius

[kamil]

You don't think Kawhi would make MJ's life tough? He would. He is as good a defender as Starks, Dumars, the late Bobby Phils.

Starks was 6'3" and gave MJ hell. I think Kawhi would do as good of a job.

[imdaman99]

Starks was 6'3" and gave MJ hell. I think Kawhi would do as good of a job.
LOL that's debatable. He did help MJ have some of his worst games but all I remember is MJ dropping double nickels on him. That's what makes MJ the best, sure you could force a bad game from him (game 3 with Bulls down 0-2 in 1994). But next game he is coming back and dropping 40+. Stopped at least 1-2 championships for the Knicks, hate the SOB :mad:

[ArbitraryWater]

LOL that's debatable. He did help MJ have some of his worst games but all I remember is MJ dropping double nickels on him. That's what makes MJ the best, sure you could force a bad game from him (game 3 with Bulls down 0-2 in 1994). But next game he is coming back and dropping 40+. Stopped at least 1-2 championships for the Knicks, hate the SOB :mad:

MJ was retired in '94, it was 1993, and MJ shot 35% for the series outside of that game...

[3ball]

Starks was 6'3" and gave MJ hell.


By "hell", do you mean getting thoroughly dominated (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A) to a greater extent than any one defender has ever been dominated (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d96M7y38XKM) in the modern era?

Next to the word "domination" in the dictionary should be a picture of what Jordan did to Starks.

But MJ dominated Starks largely because of his size/power advantage, not any quickness advantage..

Whereas MJ dominated Rodman because of the quickness - this is why you rarely see coaches make Rodman, Kawhi or other frontcourt players futilely defend (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858) guys like Westbrook, Monta Ellis or MJ.

[Indian guy]

So I tried to figure it out..

Lebron is quick for his size, but he isn't a guard, so he doesn't have true guard quickness - that's why he isn't a mismatch for frontcourt players like Kawhi Leonard or Boris Diaw the way quick guards like Westbrook, Monta Ellis or MJ would be.

None of this makes any sense. LeBron and Kawhi are both front court players. They both play the same position, in fact. So why exactly should this match-up be favorable to LeBron quickness-wise? Kawhi's much smaller than LeBron at 6'7, 230 pounds, and is very athletic on top of it. How is this match-up remotely similar to a guard going up against a front court player? And why are you lumping Boris Diaw, a pudgy PF, with an athletic SF in Kawhi?

[Lebron23]

What series were you watching??

LeBron averaged 25.3 ppg on 45 FG%, 10.9 rpg, 7.0 apg, 2.3 spg, and 0.9 bpg.in the 2013 NBA Finals

Lebron averaged 28.2 on 57.1 FG% 7.8 rpg, 4.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, and 0.4 spg in the 2014 NBA Finals.

[huskerdu]

Check out the stats with Kawhi specifically guarding Lebron and Lebron's numbers are sub 42%.

ESPN did an article about both of the past Finals and Lebron shot by far his worst against Kawhi.

Rarely see a player get inside another's head the way you see Kawhi get into leBron's.

[rmt]

Lebron has said it before - one of the reasons why Leonard is so effective is because of the guys he has behind him - Duncan, Splitter and Diaw. Lebron is "slower" than Leonard and can't get around him like say vs Diaw (this is done quickly) and if Lebron backs him down (done slowly), TD/Splitter/Diaw have time to come over and help. It's a bad matchup for Lebron because he doesn't play with an offensive (post scoring - not a perimeter scoring who anyone can switch onto) big man who must be guarded at all times.

Why do you think Kobe has 5 rings - that all important POST big man (not Bosh, Love types)?

[ShawkFactory]

By "hell", do you mean getting thoroughly dominated (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A) to a greater extent than any one defender has ever been dominated (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d96M7y38XKM) in the modern era?

Next to the word "domination" in the dictionary should be a picture of what Jordan did to Starks.

But MJ dominated Starks largely because of his size/power advantage, not any quickness advantage..

Whereas MJ dominated Rodman because of the quickness - this is why you rarely see coaches make Rodman, Kawhi or other frontcourt players futilely defend (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858) guys like Westbrook, Monta Ellis or MJ.
Compared to normal this isn't true.

During the first 3-peat he played 27 games against the Knicks, averaging 30.3 PPG on 45%. Compare that to his normal 32.2 and 52% during those 3 years total and it's pretty clear than John Starks and the Knicks game him trouble (relatively speaking). And there's a couple outlying performances sprinkled in there. In general he was well below his average play.

He's still the GOAT and still did well, but there's no shame in saying that someone made life harder for him than he was used to.

[Paul George 24]

Bran > MJ > Kobe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Vkq9BcZQqY

LEAIRBALL :roll:

[Paul George 24]

Lebron averaged 27-10-6-2 against Kawhi in the playoff. I'd say he did okay.

PAD STATS IN GARBAGE TIME :lol

[Paul George 24]

What series were you watching??

LeBron averaged 25.3 ppg on 45 FG%, 10.9 rpg, 7.0 apg, 2.3 spg, and 0.9 bpg.in the 2013 NBA Finals

Lebron averaged 28.2 on 57.1 FG% 7.8 rpg, 4.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, and 0.4 spg in the 2014 NBA Finals.

PAD STATS IN GARBAGE TIME CALLED DOMINANT :lol

[dunksby]

MJ wouldn't be able to dominate Kawhi either, 6' 6" 227lbs 7' 3" wingspan and agile on his feet is nothing to **** with :no:

[Paul George 24]

MJ wouldn't be able to dominate Kawhi either, 6' 6" 227lbs 7' 3" wingspan and agile on his feet is nothing to **** with :no:
NICE JOKE.............

[clipps]

Lebron is playing in an ungodly strong era where Leonard's D completely out classes the mere mortals in weak eras like MJ, Pippen, Prime Artest, Bowen, Kobe stopper, Bad Boy Pistons, etc.

[JerrySeinfeld]

What series were you watching??

LeBron averaged 25.3 ppg on 45 FG%, 10.9 rpg, 7.0 apg, 2.3 spg, and 0.9 bpg.in the 2013 NBA Finals

Lebron averaged 28.2 on 57.1 FG% 7.8 rpg, 4.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, and 0.4 spg in the 2014 NBA Finals.

post his stats vs kawhi leonard as opposed to his total stats which include garbage time padding vs the spurs bench

[sportjames23]

You don't think Kawhi would make MJ's life tough? He would. He is as good a defender as Starks, Dumars, the late Bobby Phils.


http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/meangirl33/11812096/4181/4181_original.gif

[3ball]

During the first 3-peat he played 27 games against the Knicks, averaging 30.3 PPG on 45%.


When the Bulls needed it most, MJ had several massive, one-of-a-kind, historic games against the Knicks.. These huge games demonstrate the GOAT level of domination MJ was capable of against Starks and that team - that's why no one looks at the 30 PPG average.. They look at how Jordan played against Starks when the Bulls NEEDED it - that's what people remember - and during those times, MJ dominated Starks as much as anyone has ever dominated anyone at anything..

Lebron isn't really capable of this kind of bludgeoning - and overall, he dominates a small fraction as often as MJ did.. For example, we all know that Lebron's best playoff games are his 45 point game against the Celtics and his 48 point game against Detroit in 2007.. Well, Jordan had SO many games like that, he'd recorded a series of GOAT-level games against each team, like the Knicks for example.. The stats show Jordan had by far and away the most big games (45 or more points) against top defenses - it's not remotely close:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255273

Jordan's performance against top 5 defenses in the playoffs is unmatched and well-documented: Out of the 17 times (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362242) he's faced a top 5 defense in the playoffs, his lowest average was 27 PPG... Otoh, out of the 12 times (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362244) Lebron has faced a top 5 defense in the playoffs, he's averaged less than 27 PPG seven times, and his career playoff PPG is only one point higher, 28 PPG.





MJ's the GOAT and he still did well


For anyone else, it's goat to average 30 PPG against the best defense in the league - but it was so standard for Jordan, that you misperceive it as him just "doing well".

I mean, I'm not saying Lebron has to thoroughly dominate Kawhi and hit a game-winner on him in the playoffs, the way Jordan did Rodman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw6j1O8_naI&t=9m02s), but it shouldn't be too much to ask Lebron to dominate Kawhi a liiiiiittle bit.. Instead, it's the opposite - Kawhi was Lebron's defensive assignment, yet Kawhi gets honored as playing the best of anyone in the Finals.. :hammerhead:

[Tycriss]

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/lebronkawhi.gif

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan

[TheMan]

You don't think Kawhi would make MJ's life tough? He would. He is as good a defender as Starks, Dumars, the late Bobby Phils.
MJ consistently dropped 30-40 and even 50 point games on Dumars and Starks :confusedshrug:

There isn't a single player that I could say that could stop Jordan one on one, MJ is the GOAT offensive wing player.

[TheMan]

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/lebronkawhi.gif
LOL

In this gif it looks like LeBron is going "aw shit, him again?".

LBJ is a GOAT player and if he had MJ's killer instinct, he could throughly crush Leonard IMO, he's just not wired that though.

[swagga]

LOL that's debatable. He did help MJ have some of his worst games but all I remember is MJ dropping double nickels on him. That's what makes MJ the best, sure you could force a bad game from him (game 3 with Bulls down 0-2 in 1994). But next game he is coming back and dropping 40+. Stopped at least 1-2 championships for the Knicks, hate the SOB :mad:

starks was too emotional to be a good defender, too easy to get into his head, as we saw it with miller, jordan, etc. And those horrible games were because of a team effort, you don't shut down somebody 1v1, unless you are some godly defender like tony allen, gary payton and so on. Btw, gary payton gave MJ the business.

[TheMan]

starks was too emotional to be a good defender, too easy to get into his head, as we saw it with miller, jordan, etc. And those horrible games were because of a team effort, you don't shut down somebody 1v1, unless you are some godly defender like tony allen, gary payton and so on. Btw, gary payton gave MJ the business.
That was a past his prime Jordan though...MJ was still the best player in 96 but prime/peak Jordan manhandles prime/peak GP.

[swagga]

That was a past his prime Jordan though...MJ was still the best player in 96 but prime/peak Jordan manhandles prime/peak GP.

peak MJ doesn't have the range tho.. different type of defense there. Payton would do good, he was big and strong with excellent defensive posture, imo he doesn't get manhandled. He'd slow MJ down a bit.

[TheMan]

peak MJ doesn't have the range tho.. different type of defense there. Payton would do good, he was big and strong with excellent defensive posture, imo he doesn't get manhandled. He'd slow MJ down a bit.
Peak MJ had an elite midrange game and quick as hell, plus he's bigger and stronger than GP. MJ's low post game in his prime was really good although it became elite when he began to lose a step as he got older. Maybe saying he'd manhandle GP is overstating it a bit because Payton was a hell of a defender, but prime MJ would definitely drop a few huge games on him, like did to every elite wing defender he faced in his peak.

[3ball]

gary payton gave MJ the business.


In a series they got destroyed in, and he only guarded MJ after the series had been decided - garbage time.. If Payton had guarded MJ from Game 1, it would have brought out a better version of Jordan than circumstance gave us - instead, Payton lucked out because Jordan didn't get a whole series to adjust like he normally would.. Goats from all disciplines need time to adjust and show their goatness and depth of ability.. For example, see the 1993 ECF - it seemed impossible to for anyone to have a big game or get into Pat Riley's paint, so in Game 4, MJ relied in his jumpshot exclusively (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A) for 54 points.

MJ didn't get 4 games to adjust to Payton in the 1996 Finals.. But fortunately, in their first meeting of the 1997 season (and first since the Finals), Payton was once again matched up defensively mono-a-mono against MJ from the opening tip and for the entire game.. That game was famously called the "George Karl Game" (for a previous beef Jordan had with Karl).. Jordan scored 45 on Payton, on 19-28 shooting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXn8x87sp9k&t=0m25s

While MJ proved his ability to dominate Payton in the 4-game sample of Payton guarding him, Lebron's had 12 games in the Finals to demonstrate he can dominate Kawhi (and even more games in the regular season).. But unlike Jordan, who had multiple 50 point games on Starks and the aforementioned 45 on Payton, Lebron has never shown he can dominate Kawhi.. :confusedshrug:
.

[navy]

Stop deleting your post and then reposting them so you can bump your threads.

[Spurs m8]

What series were you watching??

LeBron averaged 25.3 ppg on 45 FG%, 10.9 rpg, 7.0 apg, 2.3 spg, and 0.9 bpg.in the 2013 NBA Finals

Lebron averaged 28.2 on 57.1 FG% 7.8 rpg, 4.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, and 0.4 spg in the 2014 NBA Finals.

Just because you need another reminder to stop people like you posting this junk, HE WAS A STAT PADDING LITTLE BITCH.

KAWHI SHUT THIS CLOWN DOWN AND TOOK FMVP, YOU RIPPER!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[Spurs m8]

Stop deleting your post and then reposting them so you can bump your threads.

Anyone who does this is a confirmed punish

[SamuraiSWISH]

You don't think Kawhi would make MJ's life tough? He would. He is as good a defender as Starks, Dumars, the late Bobby Phils.
Starks, GP and Dumars gave MJ trouble because they were like bigger guards who were extremely fast laterally, tenacious, and strong. In Dumars case, smart too.

Had nothing to do with length. Something people confuse.

If you're a jump shot happy player, he'd be in trouble, say the way Tayshaun Prince gave 2004 Kobe issues. Yet sophomore D-Wade the very next season torched him. Why? Because Wade had PG like burst, and quickness (ala Jordan) preferring to attack the rim.

Jordan ate long, athletic guys like Stacey Augmon, Gerald Wilkins, Reggie Lewis, Anthony Mason, Dan Majerle, Clyde Drexler, Cliff Robinson, Byron Russell types alive. Because while being his height, athletic, or taller / bigger none of them were near fast enough to negate dribble pentration.

MJ used to make Pippen beg to take it easy on him in practice. You don't think Jordan would get what he wants on Kwahi? Leonard is a better defender than Pippen now? Scottie was clearly better because he was faster laterally.

[Hey Yo]

I forgot the excuse as to why Jordan quit the league "twice" with the chance to 4-peat.

[Spurs m8]

I forgot the excuse as to why Jordan quit the league "twice" with the chance to 4-peat.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Hey Yo]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
that's what ^^^^^ Jordan stans do when faced with the question. Hand on forehead first, then the hand continues down the face to the chin, then a deep breath cause they have no logical answer.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I forgot the excuse as to why Jordan quit the league "twice" with the chance to 4-peat.
Jordan had a chance to 4-Peat in 1999, @ 36 years old ... with Phil Jackson gone, Pippen gone, Rodman gone and adding Tim Floyd? Right.

[jzek]

Starks was 6'3" and gave MJ hell.

Different rules back then.

No way Starks would give MJ "hell" with today's rules.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Btw, gary payton gave MJ the business.
MJ gave him 45 the very next season. GP did a fantastic job in the games he was on him replacing Hawkins, McMillain, and Wingate. All of which were good defenders themselves, just not GOAT tier caliber like GP. But Jordan was missing baskets he usually stroked with ease.

[Hey Yo]

Jordan had a chance to 4-Peat in 1999, @ 36 years old ... with Phil Jackson gone, Pippen gone, Rodman gone and adding Tim Floyd? Right.
He also had the chance in 1994.

Wouldn't that be the definition of the phrase "when things get tough?"

That phrase gets thrown around a lot on this forum, no?

[Beastmode88]

I forgot the excuse as to why Jordan quit the league "twice" with the chance to 4-peat.

Lol lebron can't even 3peat. Dude averaged 28 ppg in the 2014 finals while mj was averaged 41 ppg to his first 3peat. why you comparing a 4peat to someone who can't even 3? :confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wouldn't that be the definition of the phrase "when things get tough?"

That phrase gets thrown around a lot on this forum, no?
No, I think that's pretty clearly a dude at the end of his career. Not a guy in his prime cowardly colluding, and stacking the entire deck in his / her favor. This wasn't prime Jordan we're talking about. He was ready to turn 36 years old. Ancient in NBA basketball terms. And retiring in 1994 was his own agenda. What does it matter if he could've won a 4th ring or not? He wanted to pursue other life ventures. When he came back, it was still to the team he was loyal to since he was drafted.

[Hey Yo]

Lol lebron can't even 3peat. Dude averaged 28 ppg in the 2014 finals while mj was averaged 41 ppg to his first 3peat. why you comparing a 4peat to someone who can't even 3? :confusedshrug:
Why you comparing a guy who had the stones to try to get to a 4th finals...... to a guy who chose to quit instead of trying for a 4th Finals?

[Beastmode88]

Why you comparing a guy who had the stones to try to get to a 4th finals...... to a guy who chose to quit instead of trying for a 4th Finals?

stones? LOL dude quit in 2011. dude average 4ppg in the 4th quater in 2014. :roll:

[3ball]

What game are you watching?


Lebron has far less big, historic playoff games.. For example, we all know that Lebron's best playoff games are his 45 point game against the Celtics in 2010, and his 48 point game against Detroit in 2007.. Otoh, MJ has games like that against EVERY team, like the Knicks for example.. The stats show Jordan had by far and away the most big games (45 or more points) against top defenses - it's not remotely close:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255273

Jordan's performance against top 5 defenses in the playoffs is unmatched and well-documented: Out of the 17 times (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362242) he's faced a top 5 defense in the playoffs, his lowest average was 27 PPG... Otoh, out of the 12 times (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362244) Lebron has faced a top 5 defense in the playoffs, he's averaged less than 27 PPG seven times, and his career playoff PPG is only one point higher, 28 PPG.
.

[Hey Yo]

No, I think that's pretty clearly a dude at the end of his career. Not a guy in his prime cowardly colluding, and stacking the entire deck in his / her favor. This wasn't prime Jordan we're talking about. He was ready to turn 36 years old. Ancient in NBA basketball terms. And retiring in 1994 was his own agenda. What does it matter if he could've won a 4th ring or not? He wanted to pursue other life ventures. When he came back, it was still to the team he was loyal to since he was drafted.
If James quit the league at age 29, with a chance to play in or attempt 4 titles / Finals in a row, he would be crucified.

He gets crucified now for who he may or not may not be friends with on his team.

[navy]

3ball again with the copy and paste. :roll:

[Beastmode88]

If James quit the league at age 29, with a chance to play in or attempt 4 titles / Finals in a row, he would be crucified.

He gets crucified now for who he may or not may not be friends with on his team.

jordan quit cause he had no competition while lebron has trouble with tim duncan. kobe was taking a dodo on timmy in his prime.

[3ball]

LeBron averaged 25.3 ppg on 45 FG%, 10.9 rpg, 7.0 apg, 2.3 spg, and 0.9 bpg.in the 2013 NBA Finals

Lebron averaged 28.2 on 57.1 FG% 7.8 rpg, 4.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, and 0.4 spg in the 2014 NBA Finals.


These are not all-time dominant stats, or anywhere near.. And in many games, Kawhi outplayed Lebron.

Jordan proved he could dominate Payton by scoring 45 on Payton as a 34-year old.. He routinely embarrassed (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858) Dennis Rodman, including a historic playoff game-winner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw6j1O8_naI&t=9m01s), and he was considered a major mismatch for all frontcourt players.

But what has Lebron done to Kawhi other than let him get FMVP?.. He damn sure has never dominated him.

[Hey Yo]

jordan quit cause he had no competition while lebron has trouble with tim duncan. kobe was taking a dodo on timmy in his prime.
So why sign back with the Bulls in 95-96 with the condition that they sign one of the greatest rebounders / defenders?

Why not sign with a struggling non-playoff team team who needed a boost and try to make them contenders if he indeed wanted wanted a challenge or competition???

[Beastmode88]

So why sign back with the Bulls in 95-96 with the condition that they sign one of the greatest rebounders / defenders?

Why not sign with a struggling non-playoff team team who needed a boost and try to make them contenders if he indeed wanted wanted a challenge or competition???

he was still under contract... :facepalm

[Megabox!]

jordan quit cause he had no competition while lebron has trouble with tim duncan. kobe was taking a dodo on timmy in his prime.
:facepalm

[Budadiiii]

Jordan hasn't quit anything in his life.

He became the king of basketball and wanted to pursue his dead fathers dream of him being a pro baseball player. It was therapy for him. Helped heal his heart to honor his dead dads wish.

lol @ anyone who criticizes Jordan for that. ****ing rejects.

[Hey Yo]

he was still under contract... :facepalm
No he wasn't. Signed on for 1yr 30mil. before the 95-96 season.

[Spurs m8]

that's what ^^^^^ Jordan stans do when faced with the question. Hand on forehead first, then the hand continues down the face to the chin, then a deep breath cause they have no logical answer.

You're not worth anyones time

[knicksman]

Lebron has said it before - one of the reasons why Leonard is so effective is because of the guys he has behind him - Duncan, Splitter and Diaw. Lebron is "slower" than Leonard and can't get around him like say vs Diaw (this is done quickly) and if Lebron backs him down (done slowly), TD/Splitter/Diaw have time to come over and help. It's a bad matchup for Lebron because he doesn't play with an offensive (post scoring - not a perimeter scoring who anyone can switch onto) big man who must be guarded at all times.

Why do you think Kobe has 5 rings - that all important POST big man (not Bosh, Love types)?

More like kobe isnt afraid to shoot when given the space.

[rmt]

More like kobe isnt afraid to shoot when given the space.

Leonard gave him space in '13 - then Lebron came back shooting better the next year. Leonard didn't give him space in '14 - I guess Pop's game plan.

[knicksman]

Leonard gave him space in '13 - then Lebron came back shooting better the next year. Leonard didn't give him space in '14 - I guess Pop's game plan.

well thats what kobe great. He can score despite no space. Thats what really separates kobe and bran. Kobe wants to win thus focusing on that skill while bran would rather focus on things that are less important for a scorer(passing)

[Hey Yo]

well thats what kobe great. He can score despite no space. Thats what really separates kobe and bran. Kobe wants to win thus focusing on that skill while bran would rather focus on things that are less important for a scorer(passing)
dumb

[knicksman]

dumb

kobe 5/7, bran 2/5 yet im the dumb one:confusedshrug:

[rmt]

well thats what kobe great. He can score despite no space. Thats what really separates kobe and bran. Kobe wants to win thus focusing on that skill while bran would rather focus on things that are less important for a scorer(passing)

Why label Lebron a scorer - there are other things than scoring in the game of basketball - Lebron gives his team whatever it needs - he almost always makes the right play. I'm neither a Lebron or Kobe fan, but give me Lebron any day. I don't want a selfish chucker as my franchise player. Lebron might choke more but at least he's not selfish and thinks about the team before himself. Plus, he doesn't get charged with attempted rape (that's a no-no from this female).

[Hey Yo]

kobe 5/7, bran 2/5 yet im the dumb one:confusedshrug:
You haven't let the board down yet.

[knicksman]

Why label Lebron a scorer - there are other things than scoring in the game of basketball - Lebron gives his team whatever it needs - he almost always makes the right play. I'm neither a Lebron or Kobe fan, but give me Lebron any day. I don't want a selfish chucker as my franchise player. Lebron might choke more but at least he's not selfish and thinks about the team before himself. Plus, he doesn't get charged with attempted rape (that's a no-no from this female).

Because a team player scorer scores off the ball thus passing skills are the least important. Just like a QB/PG where receiving skills/scoring skills are the least important for them. So if you see a player who dominates the ball just to have high apg, then you know that player is selfish. Theres a reason why robertson/iverson are labeled cancers by teammates. And thats the reason why bran is just 2/5.

[Hey Yo]

Because a team player scorer scores off the ball thus passing skills are the least important. Just like a QB/PG where receiving skills/scoring skills are the least important for them. So if you see a player who dominates the ball just to have high apg, then you know that player is selfish. Theres a reason why robertson/iverson are labeled cancers by teammates. And thats the reason why bran is just 2/5.
Like Magic, Stockton, Nash did?

[knicksman]

Like Magic, Stockton, Nash did?

Looks like reading comprehension isnt your thing my friend. Yet im the dumb one :lol

[Hey Yo]

Looks like reading comprehension isnt your thing my friend. Yet im the dumb one :lol
You continue to prove you are.

[knicksman]

You continue to prove you are.

yet im not the fan of 2/5:lol

[Spurs m8]

Hey Yo posting terribly ITT

[Megabox!]

yet im not the fan of 2/5:lol
You're a Knicks fan tho..........:facepalm

[nba_55]

Does anyone have Lebron's stats when guarded by Leonard in 2014 playoffs?

[rmt]

Because a team player scorer scores off the ball thus passing skills are the least important. Just like a QB/PG where receiving skills/scoring skills are the least important for them. So if you see a player who dominates the ball just to have high apg, then you know that player is selfish. Theres a reason why robertson/iverson are labeled cancers by teammates. And thats the reason why bran is just 2/5.

So a player who has a high apg (you know, lets others score) is selfish, but a chucker with 2-3 defenders on him who won't pass the ball isn't?

[knicksman]

So a player who has a high apg (you know, lets others score) is selfish, but a chucker with 2-3 defenders on him who won't pass the ball isn't?

if youre a scorer and wants to dominate the ball just so you can have high apg, its selfishness. If youre a team player, its hard to have both just like a QB cant have receiver stats and vice versa. Jordan can average 10 apg or magic could average 25+ ppg if they wanted to but they chose not for rings. Thats what true unselfishness is, sacrificing stats for rings and not how high your apg is.

And if that chucker could make those tough shots then why not. Thats what scorers are. Their role is not to dominate the ball to pass but to play off ball for easy shots.

[funnystuff]

So I tried to figure it out..

Lebron is quick for his size, but he isn't a guard, so he doesn't have true guard quickness - that's why he isn't a mismatch for frontcourt players like Kawhi Leonard or Boris Diaw the way quick guards like Westbrook, Monta Ellis or MJ would be.

Regarding Jordan, Magic Johnson says it best at the 4:21 and 5:26 marks after MJ scores on Phoenix's bouncy SF (Richard Dumas) twice in a row in the 1993 Finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLLfcJhJ9wc&t=4m21s

"I'm sorry but... no way can you put a man that is not used to guarding Michael Jordan - or guarding guards - on Michael Jordan.."

In general, it always looks weird putting taller defenders on ultra-quick players - it feels like embarrassment is impending.. That's why Chuck Daly rarely put Dennis Rodman on Jordan.. The mismatch was obvious (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858), and MJ made it look like a coaching blunder.. Also, having a frontcourt player defend a guard like MJ messes up the defensive matchups for everyone else on the team.

I guess that's why Lebron can't make mincemeat out of Kawhi the way MJ did Rodman: Lebron's a slower SF - therefore, he's not really a mismatch for frontcourt players the way players with true-guard quickness are (i.e. MJ, Westbrook, or Monta Ellis).
.
Annnnnnnnnd there's the agenda.

[Lebron23]

Just because you need another reminder to stop people like you posting this junk, HE WAS A STAT PADDING LITTLE BITCH.

KAWHI SHUT THIS CLOWN DOWN AND TOOK FMVP, YOU RIPPER!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:


Shut the F*ck up. I watched the series @$$hole. Lebron was the best player in the 2013 and 2014 NBA Finals.

[Magic 32]

Shut the F*ck up. I watched the series @$$hole. Lebron was the best player in the 2013 and 2014 NBA Finals.

Sounds a lot more impressive than it is.

[RRR3]

Why label Lebron a scorer - there are other things than scoring in the game of basketball - Lebron gives his team whatever it needs - he almost always makes the right play. I'm neither a Lebron or Kobe fan, but give me Lebron any day. I don't want a selfish chucker as my franchise player. Lebron might choke more but at least he's not selfish and thinks about the team before himself. Plus, he doesn't get charged with attempted rape (that's a no-no from this female).
Wait-you're a girl?

:wtf:

[Lebron23]

Sounds a lot more impressive than it is.

How many accounts do you have?? You are probably Asian or Palestinian.

[Magic 32]

How many accounts do you have?? You are probably Asian or Palestinian.

I have one account. I'm not Asian or Palestinian.

But I have seen your layup.

[Lebron23]

I have one account. I'm not Asian or Palestinian.

But I have seen your layup.

I'll score 81 points on your fat @$$ if we play 1 on 1.

[Lebron23]

Wait-you're a girl?

:wtf:


That's why she hates Kobe.

[Magic 32]

I'll score 81 points on your fat @$$ if we play 1 on 1.

The ultra white mamba?

[Lebron23]

The ultra white mamba?


*Brown Mamba

[Paul George 24]

Shut the F*ck up. I watched the series @$$hole. Lebron was the best player in the 2013 and 2014 NBA Finals.
NO WAY,WADE IS THE BEST PLAYER IN 2013 FINALS:no:
WADE LED THE HEAT IN 7 GAME SERIES ,LEFLOP PLAYS LIK A SHIT UNTIL WADE STEP UP & PUT HE TEAM ON HIS SHOULDER WHILE LEFLOP INVISIBLE ON BOTH ENDS :lol
LEFLOP ONLY PLAY WELL IN GAME 7

[Lebron23]

NO WAY,WADE IS THE BEST PLAYER IN 2013 FINALS:no:
WADE LED THE HEAT IN 7 GAME SERIES ,LEFLOP PLAYS LIK A SHIT UNTIL WADE STEP UP & PUT HE TEAM ON HIS SHOULDER WHILE LEFLOP INVISIBLE ON BOTH ENDS :lol
LEFLOP ONLY PLAY WELL IN GAME 7


Get another gimmick account Real14. You are a terrible troll.

[Paul George 24]

I'll score 81 points on your fat @$$ if we play 1 on 1.

SHAQ WILL KILL LEFLOF FOR BREAKFAST :lol

[Paul George 24]

Get another gimmick account Real14. You are a terrible troll.

LEFLOP STANS MAD :lol

[Paul George 24]

BIGGEST CHOKER OF ALL TIME = LEFLOP IN 2011 :lol

[Lebron23]

Welcome to my ignore lists. You are just a waste of bandwidth.

[Milbuck]

Because Kawhi is a beast. If you were to design the perfect player to defend Lebron, he would be it. 6'7" 235, athletic, strong as hell, long arms, huge hands, fast hands, crazy stamina, scary good defensive instincts and IQ, emotionally and mentally unbreakable, doesn't say or do stupid shit like Lance to get Lebron going, he just goes out there and f*cks shit up.

[hiphopfan777]

Paul george is garbage. Lebron soiled his diapers last three years in playoffs. Plus george quit on his team this year. Lebron bad back bad knee plays yet george doesnt play at all.

[hiphopfan777]

Kawhi leonard is garbage. Nothing nor than a system player.no all star games,


Lebron soiled his diapers in 2013 game seven finals. Remember that jumper in his face I do.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d9C7FUAP9HA

[Beastmode88]

Kawhi leonard is garbage. Nothing nor than a system player.no all star games,


Lebron soiled his diapers in 2013 game seven finals. Remember that jumper in his face I do.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d9C7FUAP9HA

I also remember kawhi taking lebrons fmvp and ring last year.

[hiphopfan777]

I also remember kawhi taking lebrons fmvp and ring last year.
How is that LeBron's fault. He put up 28/8/6. Thats good numbers for someone who supposably choked. He outscored the spurs two top scorers combined. Bosh and wade were hot garbage. Lebron shot 52% on threes against kawhi. Elimination game ,5, lebron scores the heats first twenty points while his teammates shit their diapers.ham seven 2013 vs kawhi 5/10 threes.
Remove LeBron heat dont make finals removal kawhi spurs still make finals.

Spur were a superior team. It was 1-5.

In game five alone lebron scores 20 points in first quarter and heat were up. Thats the same points kawhi had in games one and two combined.
game 1 and 2, lebron scores 15 points in first quarter , kawhi only nine in whole game. Who outplayed who

[knicksman]

How is that LeBron's fault. He put up 28/8/6. Thats good numbers for someone who supposably choked. He outscored the spurs two top scorers combined. Bosh and wade were hot garbage. Lebron shot 52% on threes against kawhi. Elimination game ,5, lebron scores the heats first twenty points while his teammates shit their diapers.ham seven 2013 vs kawhi 5/10 threes.
Remove LeBron heat dont make finals removal kawhi spurs still make finals.

Spur were a superior team. It was 1-5.

In game five alone lebron scores 20 points in first quarter and heat were up. Thats the same points kawhi had in games one and two combined.
game 1 and 2, lebron scores 15 points in first quarter , kawhi only nine in whole game. Who outplayed who

you dont know shit about this game beyond stats bro. Just stop

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Kawhi leonard is garbage. Nothing nor than a system player.no all star games,


Lebron soiled his diapers in 2013 game seven finals. Remember that jumper in his face I do.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d9C7FUAP9HA

:facepalm

He's much, much more than a system player. Locking down the best player in the league in a finals series is clearly indicative of that.

All-star selections mean nothing...Kobe was voted in this season for ****'s sake. Kawhi is special, Milbuck said it best:



Because Kawhi is a beast. If you were to design the perfect player to defend Lebron, he would be it. 6'7" 235, athletic, strong as hell, long arms, huge hands, fast hands, crazy stamina, scary good defensive instincts and IQ, emotionally and mentally unbreakable, doesn't say or do stupid shit like Lance to get Lebron going, he just goes out there and f*cks shit up.

[Spurs m8]

Hiphopfan still neglecting stat padding, making himself look stupid again

[Black Mamba's B]

Jordan hasn't quit anything in his life.

He became the king of basketball and wanted to pursue his dead fathers dream of him being a pro baseball player. It was therapy for him. Helped heal his heart to honor his dead dads wish.

lol @ anyone who criticizes Jordan for that. ****ing rejects.
He's the reason his dad died but that's for another thread

[Paul George 24]

How is that LeBron's fault. He put up 28/8/6. Thats good numbers for someone who supposably choked. He outscored the spurs two top scorers combined. Bosh and wade were hot garbage. Lebron shot 52% on threes against kawhi. Elimination game ,5, lebron scores the heats first twenty points while his teammates shit their diapers.ham seven 2013 vs kawhi 5/10 threes.
Remove LeBron heat dont make finals removal kawhi spurs still make finals.

Spur were a superior team. It was 1-5.

In game five alone lebron scores 20 points in first quarter and heat were up. Thats the same points kawhi had in games one and two combined.
game 1 and 2, lebron scores 15 points in first quarter , kawhi only nine in whole game. Who outplayed who
LOSER ALWAYS MAKES EXCUSE :lol

[Bigsmoke]

http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w364/MATW88/eS0SsaP_zpse93e658d.gif (http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/MATW88/media/eS0SsaP_zpse93e658d.gif.html)

[sportjames23]

He's the reason his dad died but that's for another thread


I see young fggts say this shit all the time. Provide proof, bitch, or **** the **** off.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

I see young fggts say this shit all the time. Provide proof, bitch, or **** the **** off.
He's talking about Jordan's dad, not yours.

Don't catch feelings over it.

[Beastmode88]

How is that LeBron's fault. He put up 28/8/6. Thats good numbers for someone who supposably choked. He outscored the spurs two top scorers combined. Bosh and wade were hot garbage. Lebron shot 52% on threes against kawhi. Elimination game ,5, lebron scores the heats first twenty points while his teammates shit their diapers.ham seven 2013 vs kawhi 5/10 threes.
Remove LeBron heat dont make finals removal kawhi spurs still make finals.

Spur were a superior team. It was 1-5.

In game five alone lebron scores 20 points in first quarter and heat were up. Thats the same points kawhi had in games one and two combined.
game 1 and 2, lebron scores 15 points in first quarter , kawhi only nine in whole game. Who outplayed who

You're also forgeting how lebron averaged 4 ppg in the 4th quarter. You're telling me the best player in the world only scored 4 ppgs for a chance to 3peat? :kobe:

[ralph_i_el]

I want to thank 3ball for using logic and grammer in his troll attempts. The past few days have shown that he's on another level compared to the rest of these gutter-trolls around here.

Dammit, I may not like you, but I sure as hell respect you man:cheers:

[rmt]

That's why she hates Kobe.

Getting charged with attempted rape should bother anyone regardless of gender. I laugh when Mark Cuban says he gets on the other side of the street if he sees a black man with a hoodie or a white man with tattoos. Women, go to the other side of the street, when they see ANY man. Men have no idea how much an ordinary dude is stronger than a woman much less men as big as basketball players are.

But there are lots of reasons for disliking Kobe such as being overrated by his stans, snitching, selfishness. Not that I love Lebron and his team switching ways and occasional choking but I draw the line at someone calling him selfish but saying that Kobe is not selfish with some of the shots he takes.

[3ball]

.
2000-2014 SF's .............1984-1998 SF's

Lebron.............................. Larry Bird
Durant.............................. Dominique
Carmelo............................ Adrian Dantley
Pierce............................... James Worthy
Paul George....................... Grant Hill
Kawhi Leonard.................... Scottie Pippen
Rashard Lewis.................... Glen Rice
Peja................................. Chris Mullin
Richard Jefferson................ Dr. J
McGrady............................ Bernard King
Ron Artest......................... Dennis Rodman
Andre Igoudala................... Sean Elliot
Jeff Green......................... Sharif Abdur Rahim
Rudy Gay.......................... Alex English
Parsons............................. Detlef Schrempf
Gerald Wallace................... Reggie Lewis
Shawn Marion.....................Richard Dumas
Luol Deng.......................... Glenn Robinson
Caron Butler...................... Mark Aguirre
....................................... Tom Gugliotta
....................................... Jamal Mashburn


Lebron would have more problems with previous era SF's because he'd have to work so much harder defensively - nowadays, guys like Gordon Hayward and Nicolas Batum routinely bust up Lebron, let alone the many HOF's on the list above.

[3ball]

Because Kawhi is a beast. If you were to design the perfect player to defend Lebron, he would be it. 6'7" 225, athletic, strong as hell, long arms, huge hands, fast hands, crazy stamina, scary good defensive instincts and IQ, emotionally and mentally unbreakable, doesn't say or do stupid shit like Lance to get Lebron going, he just goes out there and f*cks shit up.



This guy was a lot better and Jordan had no problem dominating him (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858):
http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/62/6229/D4H3100Z/posters/detroit-pistons-dennis-rodman-march-16-1992.jpg

[sportjames23]

He's talking about Jordan's dad, not yours.

Don't catch feelings over it.


Eat shit, bitch.

[ILLsmak]

He's the reason his dad died but that's for another thread

even if that's true, and we dunno... it's some foul shit to mention. Should really be ban-worthy to go in on someone like that, even if they are an asshole like MJ was.

The fact that dudes can laugh or make fun of someone's dad getting murdered is ****ed up. Time to take a step back and realize 'being a fan' isn't that srs.

-Smak