Quickly assembled Reggie Miller video and the issue of a players prime....

[Kblaze8855]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXFF-TXxoSw&feature=youtu.be


Been a while...mostly because I only really make videos these days if I have a related point to make...this one is...

Reggie Millers prime was well before it seems some think. I know you can google numbers and see that he was more productive early in his career but somehow still...over the years ive seen many many people claiming his prime was from like 30-35. Im serious. I was just reading a topic with a guy telling me he did ____ every year of his prime and I point out that he was at his best way before he started winning and people acted like his prime started at 29 or 30.

Reggie was a more complete scorer early in his career. Or more likely...used more of what he had. He was using floaters, lefty hooks, his post game, and would even break out a little "Dirk":

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-31-2015/s-NJ-6.gif


Here and there.

Though that example is from like 1996.

Ive always known what Reggie could do...likely better than most of those acting like I underrated him. My belief he wasnt a complete scorer is relative...to the people hes compared to. To my horror I once read that he would have the 3rd best scoring skillset today after Kobe and Durant. Shit like that bugs me....but I knew he had more than a jump shot. He had game....just not as much as some want to pretend in retrospect.

And of course Larry Brown came along and decided Reggie wasnt a traditional first option and he needed to take a step back to win....it worked....and people in retrospect pretend it didnt happen....and...you know what? I'll limit the backhanded compliments for now and just leave Reggie be until someone comes in with an absurd claim about him being better than _____.


Instead let me say....

Reggie might have had a 10+ year prime. He was essentially the same guy from like 1989 to 2001 ability wise....but people kinda cut the early portion of his career off because it doesnt mesh with some ideas pushed by his supporters.

Lets put that aside for now...

Would you say a players prime is usually the start of him being very productive or do you tie it more into accomplishments? There are those who say 10 Kobe and 09 Lebron were not in their primes.....

Ive seen "WHen Durant hits his prime" for years when hes been an all time great for like 4 years.

Would you say Westbrook just hit his prime because of the huge jump in production even if its because Durant went down?

Would you say Kobe had a prime that went from maybe 2001 to 2013?

Guys like Kareem, Wilt, MJ, Oscar, and so on looked as good as anyone ever was in their second and third seasons....

Dont have the time I need to delve into it the way I intended so ill check back later....gonna go drink cheap wine while getting a haircut...

[Kblaze8855]

I dont know what the hell youtube did with the odd shaking going on in there but I removed it....they say it will be gone in a moment.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Good shit :applause:

Always felt that he was overrated but cn't deny that that man could flat-out put the ball through the hoop, and just had ice in his veins.

[Im Still Ballin]

Great mix,

Really shows how quality 3pt shooting exposes the 90's defenses

Imagine last years Spurs...

[ArbitraryWater]

That 2002 playoff game is goat level clutchness.. that dunk is kinda surprising also.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Anyone who thinks Reggie has a nice jumper is crazy. That shit is ugly. Goes in, tho, at an alltime level. Lowkey he has some of the best range ever, with the likes of Carter, Arenas, McGrady and the others who could shoot 5 feet beyond the arc like a free throw shot. Kind of odd he isn't mentioned with those guys because he's certainly acknowledged as the better shooter.

You know Reggie was skinny his entire career, but his frame ain't that bad. Must have been by choice.

[RidonKs]

prime entirely depends on the player

i think the usual trajectory is 4th year - 10th year, age 25 - 31

based on stats, reggie would fall roughly into that category.

the problem is that sports are so star-focused that fans will focus on the anomolies rather than the general rules and get mixed up.

you're right about kobe's prime which was like 12 years, but only because he's a ridiculous workhorse who will wind up playing as many minutes/games as practically anybody. ray allen is the same, he scored 20+ for 10 straight years and peaked at 26 at 31 years old. then he went to boston and his numbers dropped but he could have kept that up.

lebron has that ridiculous and evolving athleticism/strength that has allowed him to continually add new facets to his game throughout his career... plus he was in his prime right out of the gates, second season 27/7/7. i would guess the same could be said about the all-time great bigs as long as they stay in shape. hakeem, kareem, duncan, shaq... these guys all ha 10+ year primes too.

but on average, take two very solid players, career starters, borderline all-stars. one who has visibly entered his prime the past several seasons, the other who has visibly exited his prime the past several seasons.

goran dragic
david west

these guys are pretty prototypical.

west was a borderline all-star in new orleans and for a few years in indiana, from 3rd year to 10th. his numbers took a hit earlier but that was more a product of changing teams. he visibly exited his prime last season, and while he was still a crucial cog, he was less physical and in a more minor offensive role.

dragic is going to be a borderline all-star for many years. he has a wiry body, a good touch, and knows how to play pg. safe to say that he entered his prime in phoenix at the earliest, maybe in houston the year before but he wasn't getting 30+ minutes at that point. he came into the nba at 22, is now the 3rd year of his prime at 28. chances are he will drop off at around 32, towards the tail end of his next contract. given his body and skillset he will stick around til his mid 30s at least, barring injury.



in review / cliffs

lebron : 20 - 33 (2nd - 15th)
shaq : 21 - 30 (2nd - 11th)
west : 25 - 31 (3rd - 9th)
dragic : 26 - 32 (5th - 11th)
andre miller : 23 - 38 (rookie - present)
diaw : ??????????

[Dro]

Good thread, great video. And I definitely agree pretty much with everything you said in this thread moreso some of the other topics....

And I just want to post this again because I'm always amazed that people only seem to think he had big games against the Knicks in the playoffs and they only seem to remember 94-95.

Game 1 Game winner vs. Philly 2001 Playoffs-underdogs...only shot 5-21 but the game winner at 35 years old
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dh_WmIa-Gs

Game 5 2000 Playoffs...Reggie goes for 41 on 15-25 hitting huge shots down the stretch of the close game, jab stepping the sh*t outta Tim Thomas, lol...and vs. Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, Sam Cassell and company...He had 33 pts in Game 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORnlZAv0LnE

Game 6 2000 playoffs vs. Knicks...Reggie goes for 34 and hits huge shots during the 4th quarter to eliminate the Knicks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6IfMVByd3w

Game 5 1994 ECF vs. Knicks....25 points in the 4th quarter....Reggie playing like sh*t up until that point...and you know the rest..one of the greatest performances in NBA History period....There's not too many players not named Bird, Magic, or Jordan who can be the villain in a hostile environment and do that sh*t in MSG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDSF8otJH8Y

2002 Playoffs vs. Nets...Elimination game Reggie banks in a shot from almost half court to extend the game, then follows it up with a dunk in overtime over (yes over) Aaron Williams to extend the game yet again....Reggie at this point is 35-36 years old

Shot and dunk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBhC1gMTsc8

Reggie Miller 39 points at age 39 against your boy Kobe and the Lakers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFMNWOP-VKo

57 Points vs. Charlotte Hornets 1992
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zWXkwv0am8

1998 Playoffs vs. Knicks..Game 4...Reggie goes for 38 points and hits the game tying 3....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms9J2etJbDQ

1991 vs. Celtics Playoffs, 26 point, 18 in the 4th quarter..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcYILEHN4es

1998 vs. Bulls..Game 3...Everybody talks about the shot in game 6 but forget he had 13 points in the final 5 minutes of the game to bring the Pacers back. He ended up with 28.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJrTGf0Wcgg

2000 Finals. vs. Lakers Game 4....35 points vs. your boy again Kobe, 6 three's..No Kobe did not guard him the entire game..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaI6mPr4AE0

1989-1990....44 pts..vs. the Bulls giving it to Jordan AND Pippen...13-22 shooting...Games like these among others are why Jordan says Reggie is one of the toughest players he's ever played against.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...001100IND.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8MZTOixG54

Not even gonna put the 8 pts in 9 seconds or the shot on the Bulls because everyone knows those...

These are more of his clutch/big games because I know some of you might not have known about these other ones but I've seen all his games and I remembered some of these other ones off the top of my head...I remembered the game against Bulls, just couldn't remember that it was 1990, lol...But

Also...there's ton's of regular season clutch games/buzzer beaters I could've added but I don't feel like it and I wanted to mainly find other playoff moments..

He's just a bigger, big game performer on a more consistent basis than most players. Isn't that why people give Tom Brady the nod over Peyton? Or at least they used to? Cause Tom always delivered when it mattered. Reggie usually delivered...

edit-by the way, that Lupe track is hard...I had never heard it before and I fux with Lupe

[Kblaze8855]

Reggie is way way way more Donovan McNabb or Matt Hasselbeck than Tom Brady even though Tom somehow lost 10 years in a row with people still pretending he comes through every time.

Things like this are a big part of the pushback people give when Reggie starts getting praise. Names always come up he just has no business being in the same paragraph as.

As someone likely to knock down a single shot you can mention him with just about anyone. But people rarely seem to stop there.

[BIZARRO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXFF-TXxoSw&feature=youtu.be


Been a while...mostly because I only really make videos these days if I have a related point to make...this one is...

Reggie Millers prime was well before it seems some think. I know you can google numbers and see that he was more productive early in his career but somehow still...over the years ive seen many many people claiming his prime was from like 30-35. Im serious. I was just reading a topic with a guy telling me he did ____ every year of his prime and I point out that he was at his best way before he started winning and people acted like his prime started at 29 or 30.

Reggie was a more complete scorer early in his career. Or more likely...used more of what he had. He was using floaters, lefty hooks, his post game, and would even break out a little "Dirk":

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-31-2015/s-NJ-6.gif


Here and there.

Though that example is from like 1996.

Ive always known what Reggie could do...likely better than most of those acting like I underrated him. My belief he wasnt a complete scorer is relative...to the people hes compared to. To my horror I once read that he would have the 3rd best scoring skillset today after Kobe and Durant. Shit like that bugs me....but I knew he had more than a jump shot. He had game....just not as much as some want to pretend in retrospect.

And of course Larry Brown came along and decided Reggie wasnt a traditional first option and he needed to take a step back to win....it worked....and people in retrospect pretend it didnt happen....and...you know what? I'll limit the backhanded compliments for now and just leave Reggie be until someone comes in with an absurd claim about him being better than _____.


Instead let me say....

Reggie might have had a 10+ year prime. He was essentially the same guy from like 1989 to 2001 ability wise....but people kinda cut the early portion of his career off because it doesnt mesh with some ideas pushed by his supporters.

Lets put that aside for now...

Would you say a players prime is usually the start of him being very productive or do you tie it more into accomplishments? There are those who say 10 Kobe and 09 Lebron were not in their primes.....

Ive seen "WHen Durant hits his prime" for years when hes been an all time great for like 4 years.

Would you say Westbrook just hit his prime because of the huge jump in production even if its because Durant went down?

Would you say Kobe had a prime that went from maybe 2001 to 2013?

Guys like Kareem, Wilt, MJ, Oscar, and so on looked as good as anyone ever was in their second and third seasons....

Dont have the time I need to delve into it the way I intended so ill check back later....gonna go drink cheap wine while getting a haircut...



Great post and thread man. :applause:

I've always been in the Reggie is overrated camp. No doubt one of the great clutch performers ever, but I saw him play and someone like Mitch Richmond (of course), and Ray Allen (who he is often compared to) were just more complete, superior players.
For some strange reason, Reggie just was inflated after he retired (maybe it's the commentary, maybe a few of the famous performances) but it isn't in accordance with the player he really was. Which still was a very good player, but just not what he is often overly rated as.

That said, regarding your questions, quickly here goes:

1. Prime for me starts with the productivity, almost regardless of accomplishments, though accomplishments (or wins) often come along if the player is good enough. As a huge MJ fan who watched almost all of the games in his career, no one can tell me the guy I saw in late '87-mid '90 wasn't as good as the guy who won the championships. To me, the '87-90 Jordan will always be probably the best version, it's just his team got better around him. But he slowed down a hair after '90.

2. With Russell, I just think one needs to use the eye test. Russell's been capable of this the last couple of years. Looking back years from now, assuming he doesn't get hurt, I'd say we'd say Russ' prime starts in about '13 give or take a year. Just because the numbers are there due to the KD situation doesn't mean he's all that much better than he was.

3. Regarding Kobe, I think this is when it's important to distinguish between prime and peak. You could make the case it '01-'13. I'd say though his peak was '03-'08. Anything after '08 is more him just getting the requisite numbers and coasting a bit more (like MJ did late), not having the same impact on the floor. The numbers can still be there with a pro like MJ or Kobe, because they learn how to get theirs without as much effort. But it doesn't mean they are as effective or have as much impact.

[Dro]

Reggie is way way way more Donovan McNabb or Matt Hasselbeck than Tom Brady even though Tom somehow lost 10 years in a row with people still pretending he comes through every time.

Things like this are a big part of the pushback people give when Reggie starts getting praise. Names always come up he just has no business being in the same paragraph as.

As someone likely to knock down a single shot you can mention him with just about anyone. But people rarely seem to stop there.
I'm obviously not saying Reggie's Tom Brady NBA wise. I'm simply pointing out the comparison..Its the same thing...One guy is better in the regular season, the other is much better in the playoffs...

[Reggie43]

Wasnt sure if you were serious when you said you planned to make one but you really did. Nice work kblaze. But how about quickly making a 90s Pacers mix minus miller so those guys get their due and show the Pacers are not all about Reggie. Would also love a mark jackson low post scoring mix :D j/k

[pauk]

Boom baby! Kblaze, its like you are deliberately doing this shit so i can love you even more. :bowdown:

[pauk]

Anyone who thinks Reggie has a nice jumper is crazy. That shit is ugly. Goes in, tho, at an alltime level. Lowkey he has some of the best range ever, with the likes of Carter, Arenas, McGrady and the others who could shoot 5 feet beyond the arc like a free throw shot. Kind of odd he isn't mentioned with those guys because he's certainly acknowledged as the better shooter.

You know Reggie was skinny his entire career, but his frame ain't that bad. Must have been by choice.

I think Reggie's shot was textbook... feet, shoulders, going straight up, down, the form, release, follow through, wrist flick, the ball has massive spin and great arc.... its smooth, beautiful.... the only thing which may fool somebody it wasnt so uber nice is his tendency afterwards, where his arm usually goes against his left hand almost doing a "hand/wrist slap" like:

http://abovetherim.com.au/nba/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/7-89012164.jpg

But this has nothing to do with the shot, its just a.... thing... of his... after everything.... everything just before that is the most perfect looking jumpshot ever according to me.... i think Ray Allen's is to quick & the arc is to flat, for my taste, although its perfect aswell....

Check this out, his shot is sex:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/reggie-miller-still-has-the-sweetest-shot-you-ll-ever-see-011947709.html

Absolutely perfect technique...... watch and learn......

Just dont copy that "hand slap" thing afterwards he does sometimes, its not necessary... :P

[iamgine]

Numbers wise, he always stepped it up in the playoff. That year when they went to the finals, he scored 24 ppg on 60 TS%. The other two times they went deep, he scored 23 and 25 on 60 TS%+.

That's better per 100 possession than Larry Bird's scoring in the playoff.

[bizil]

When I compare Reggie to other great shooter-scorer types like West, Bird, Ray Ray, Durant, Steph, Klay, Nash, and Price, he's MUCH MORE ONE DIMENSIONAL than those guys. Reggie is more along the line of guys like a Peja or Glen Rice. Guys who can be alpha dogs and deadly shooters. However, they were usually average or even below average when it comes to things like passing, rebounding, and defending.

The advantage Reggie had on them was having those epic playoff moments in clutch situations. So GOAT wise, I can see Reggie as a top 10 caliber SG. He had 25,279 points which is 4th all time among guards. But peak wise, he's not anywhere close to the top 10. At highest, he's more in the 17-20 range peak wise for SG's.

[Dro]

I think Reggie's shot was textbook... feet, shoulders, going straight up, down, the form, release, follow through, wrist flick, the ball has massive spin and great arc.... its smooth, beautiful.... the only thing which may fool somebody it wasnt so uber nice is his tendency afterwards, where his arm usually goes against his left hand almost doing a "hand/wrist slap" like:

http://abovetherim.com.au/nba/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/7-89012164.jpg

But this has nothing to do with the shot, its just a.... thing... of his... after everything.... everything just before that is the most perfect looking jumpshot ever according to me.... i think Ray Allen's is to quick & the arc is to flat, for my taste, although its perfect aswell....

Check this out, his shot is sex:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/reggie-miller-still-has-the-sweetest-shot-you-ll-ever-see-011947709.html

Absolutely perfect technique...... watch and learn......

Just dont copy that "hand slap" thing afterwards he does sometimes, its not necessary... :P
Its crazy because I shoot exactly like him, well not exactly but my arms cross over too after my release and I never did it on purpose. Its just comfortable for me.

[pauk]

Its crazy because I shoot exactly like him, well not exactly but my arms cross over too after my release and I never did it on purpose. Its just comfortable for me.

Its just some habit of his, but its only after everything:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2ls6rf5.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/reggie-miller/reggie-miller-300b.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/reggie-miller/reggie-miller-300a.jpg


It doesnt get any better than that.........

Its only after that his arms start to cross, but at that point you can do wtf you want with your arms:

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0609/nba_g_rmiller_576.jpg




Its some habit... like most of the time i like to keep the hand up there after follow through, dont take it down until ball is through the hoop, feels better somehow, a la MJ:

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Chicago-Bulls-Michael-Jordan-Last-Shot-Game-Six-vs-Utah-Jazz.gif

[Kblaze8855]

Reading that I kinda figured is struggle to get to 20 but....


Jordan
Kobe
Gail Goodrich
Earl Monroe
Lou Hudson(swingman id call him)
West
Pistol Pete
Sam Jones
Iverson
David Thompson
Ray Allen
Harden
Mitch
Drexler
Joe Dumars
Tmac
Wade
Manu
Brandon Roy
Sidney Moncrief
Penny should you count him
Spree
Alvin robertson(Lets not have anyone complaining...he was a 20ppg DPOY and maybe the toughest player pound for pound in the NBA)
George Gervin(In what im considering his prime Larry Kenon was often at the 3)
Dennis Johnson(Combo guard...played a lot at both spots)
Paul Westphal(Google him then see why youre wrong to disagree)

All have a rational case to be made.


Then you have your Dave Bings, Jojo Whites, Klay thompsons, and Bill sharmans to consider. Which often causes the nostalgic types to take offense but considering that guys like Eddie Jones, Drazen, and I believe Dale Ellis were all nba over Reggie. And then you consider that the NBA coaches selected Reggie Lewis, Hersey Hawkins, Ricky Pierce, Michael Adams, John Starks, Stackhouse, and Alan Houston over Reggie for all star teams in his prime...

It kinda feels less outrageous to be leaning towards the likes of Paul Westphal who led finals a team and made more all nba first teams than Reggie made third teams...and knocked such legends as george Gervin and Magic Johnson off the first team.

I listed 40 guys you can logically argue over Reggie as a basketball player.

People can and likely will scoff at some of those names....but really...if NBA coaches decide you arent an all star and Michael Adams is how unlikely is it Jimmy Butler or Klay thompson get the same treatment?

Sharing a league with most of these guys...Reggie would not but considered special. Which is easy to say...considering that he wasnt very highly ranked in a prime that wasnt heavy with talent at the 2.

People talk up dramatic moments and highlights but nobody making an ESPN special about Joe Dumars having an NBA finals game winning block/save doesnt mean it wasnt a biger play than Reggie ever made.

Lot of these dudes just never got famous. But they had a game that had to be respected.

Dumars has back to back 30 point finals games and blocks the shot to tie with seconds left to ensure a ring...wins finals MVP.

Nobody gives...a shit.

Lack of fame doesnt make these dudes worse.

[pauk]

Sharing a league with most of these guys...Reggie would not but considered special. Which is easy to say...considering that he wasnt very highly ranked in a prime that wasnt heavy with talent at the 2..

You keep forgetting that Reggie had EASILY the biggest bag of tricks without the ball (MJ himself said that), guys like Ray Allen & Rip Hamilton who did admit they "stole" those Reggie tricks were themselves not even close to as good as that..... he would run around all 5 defenders like a Tasmanian Devil to get open.... all 5 defenders would have to hold him, hit him, handcheck, hipcheck, bump, do moving screens, be physical with him...... if you didnt do that you were toast, you would leave Reggie wide open to catch-n-shoot shots 24-7 from midrange (where he was even more accurate than ANYBODY)....

There is a reason Kobe Bryant said: "Reggie Miller is the toughest player i ever had to guard" and keep in mind he did play against some of the best Michael Jordan's seasons.....

Now you put Reggie in an era (TODAY) where most of that defensive retaliation (handchecking, physical defense etc.) is not allowed Reggie would very logically do better than ever before getting open...... dont you think?

I really do think Reggie would be a bit more productive with todays team defense...... and the zone defense which is legal today HE is a perfect antidote for that with his combination of shooting & running around everybody like a mad man....

[Kblaze8855]

I forget nothing. I just don't care very much how hard it is to stop someone from getting 26 points on a good night when guys who get less recognition got 26 on an average night.

I also didn't forget Kobe on Jimmy Kimmel listing Tmac as the toughest cover of his career. I'm not worried about such things.

Reggie was hell to cover....it just didn't amount to much. He would work you to death for 22 points.

You come out tired but not often lit up.

[pauk]

I forget nothing. I just don't care very much how hard it is to stop someone from getting 26 points on a good night when guys who get less recognition got 26 on an average night.

I also didn't forget Kobe on Jimmy Kimmel listing Tmac as the toughest cover of his career. I'm not worried about such things.

Reggie was hell to cover....it just didn't amount to much. He would work you to death for 22 points.

You come out tired but not often lit up.

Hehe yea, but i found seeing them exhausted more hilarious then seeing them get lit up fair n square, they would get so frustrated, first of all you know you cant hang with his cardio and then you know he will be running around guys like Dale Davis (who would bury his elbow in your throat as you pass) inevitably getting an open shot if you dont fight through that... for the entire game... :lol

[Smoke117]

Reggie Miller is the best example of being overrated. Glen Rice could have been Reggie Miller if actually had good players around him. That's Reggie's impact. A scorer who did nothing else and frankly didn't even score at a high clip anyway. For all people love to shit on Carmelo...he's better than Reggie. People always want to get lost in nostalgia and overrate someone who is retired. There is a reason he wasn't a first ballot hofer...

[pauk]

Reggie Miller is the best example of being overrated. Glen Rice could have been Reggie Miller if actually had good players around him. That's Reggie's impact. A scorer who did nothing else and frankly didn't even score at a high clip anyway. For all people love to shit on Carmelo...he's better than Reggie. People always want to get lost in nostalgia and overrate someone who is retired. There is a reason he wasn't a first ballot hofer...

Yea but....

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eYas97sSKYo/UYmNczokoBI/AAAAAAAABS4/Yw0SA0irajQ/w497-h373/reggie%2Bmiller%2Bchoke.gif

Your talent/skill means jack squat when you cant put it to use in situations when your team needs you to the most.... Reggie has hit maybe the most gamewinners in NBA history, that doesnt include his gamewinning FTs, nor does it include his gametying shots, nor does it include his points to simply close a team out late....

Reggie didnt average significant amount of points, but he averaged a significant amount of IMPORTANT points.......

Glen Rice & Carmelo? Glen especially was nowhere close to reach that Reggie longevity anyways, you think that there is because of athleticism or something? No my friend, that there is WILL, that there is WORK ETHIC...... and both Glen Rice & Carmelo Anthony had better teams than Reggie sooner or later.... Glen, the guy who at age 30 played with prime Shaq & Kobe, that there was a fair n square ringchase.... Reggie would piss on Glen in their matchups, he would choke http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=millere01&p2=ricegl01 .... especially if they ever met in stressful situations...

Overrated my ass.... give all of them equal supporting casts and then put Glen or Carmelo or Klay ***ing Thompson vs Reggie in a Game 7 of Playoffs.... and lets put the eye test to the test....

[Kblaze8855]

Im only listening to so much "But who would win the big game?" talk about a dude who didnt win anything in his life....

If your primary case is "But who stepped up and won..." the subject needs to have won. Thats kinda key.

[Dro]

I don't understand you Kblaze...Its like you make videos and topics to give Reggie props, just to tear him down with criticism and backhanded compliments. I can't be the only one who notices this....I just don't get it...Even my entire post, you chose to just focus on the Tom Brady part, just to knock Reggie down another notch when I basically agreed with everything in your OP. Do you secretly hate Reggie or something? Is he the only overrated guy in NBA history? Is he the most overrated guy in NBA history? I just don't understand your motive behind your Reggie posts/topics....

[bizil]

Reading that I kinda figured is struggle to get to 20 but....


Jordan
Kobe
Gail Goodrich
Earl Monroe
Lou Hudson(swingman id call him)
West
Pistol Pete
Sam Jones
Iverson
David Thompson
Ray Allen
Harden
Mitch
Drexler
Joe Dumars
Tmac
Wade
Manu
Brandon Roy
Sidney Moncrief
Penny should you count him
Spree
Alvin robertson(Lets not have anyone complaining...he was a 20ppg DPOY and maybe the toughest player pound for pound in the NBA)
George Gervin(In what im considering his prime Larry Kenon was often at the 3)
Dennis Johnson(Combo guard...played a lot at both spots)
Paul Westphal(Google him then see why youre wrong to disagree)

All have a rational case to be made.


Then you have your Dave Bings, Jojo Whites, Klay thompsons, and Bill sharmans to consider. Which often causes the nostalgic types to take offense but considering that guys like Eddie Jones, Drazen, and I believe Dale Ellis were all nba over Reggie. And then you consider that the NBA coaches selected Reggie Lewis, Hersey Hawkins, Ricky Pierce, Michael Adams, John Starks, Stackhouse, and Alan Houston over Reggie for all star teams in his prime...

It kinda feels less outrageous to be leaning towards the likes of Paul Westphal who led finals a team and made more all nba first teams than Reggie made third teams...and knocked such legends as george Gervin and Magic Johnson off the first team.

I listed 40 guys you can logically argue over Reggie as a basketball player.

People can and likely will scoff at some of those names....but really...if NBA coaches decide you arent an all star and Michael Adams is how unlikely is it Jimmy Butler or Klay thompson get the same treatment?

Sharing a league with most of these guys...Reggie would not but considered special. Which is easy to say...considering that he wasnt very highly ranked in a prime that wasnt heavy with talent at the 2.

People talk up dramatic moments and highlights but nobody making an ESPN special about Joe Dumars having an NBA finals game winning block/save doesnt mean it wasnt a biger play than Reggie ever made.

Lot of these dudes just never got famous. But they had a game that had to be respected.

Dumars has back to back 30 point finals games and blocks the shot to tie with seconds left to ensure a ring...wins finals MVP.

Nobody gives...a shit.

Lack of fame doesnt make these dudes worse.

Great points! And looking at all the players u named, Reggie had the WORST FLOOR GAME of them all. The guys u named were all better all around players. Many of the guys u named could swing to the PG position if needed.

Klay Thompson is like a Reggie Miller or Glen Rice with LOCKDOWN caliber defense! Thus he's arguably the best two way SG in basketball. So ya, I would even take Klay Thompson over a peak Miller. A 6'7 great sharpshooter-scorer who has great defense hasn't really been seen at the SG position.

And Paul Westhphal was a beast! Paul could play the PG position in addition to the SG. So once again, u have a great scorer who is more versatile than Reggie. Westphal peaked out at 25 points and seven assists a night.

[Kblaze8855]

Far as publiic opinion in retrospect being greatly at odds with the verifiable opinions from the time..and being more highly regarded than people clearly superior...he is I'd say the second most overrated basketball player of all time.

At times #1. But Pistol Pete has been far less praised lately....he might slip into being underrated in time....

There is no player I can think of less accomplished with less ability nearly so well remembered.

Dramatic moments that didn't actually matter in the grand scheme elevated him to places his game just can't justify.

He isn't the only one....but he's the most glaring example.

Doesn't mean I don't think he made nice plays or didn't have an interesting style worthy of discussing.

Him being overrated has nothing to do with that. Pistol Pete never won anything in his life, half his teammates hated him, and most teams wouldn't trade for him when he was on the block in his prime.....

Which might make him overrated but it sure as hell doesn't mean he isn't interesting and worthy of discussion and highlight videos.

The two things aren't the least bit related

[navy]

Far as publiic opinion in retrospect being greatly at odds with the verifiable opinions from the time..and being more highly regarded than people clearly superior...he is I'd say the second most overrated basketball player of all time.

At times #1. But Pistol Pete has been far less praised lately....he might slip into being underrated in time....

There is no player I can think of less accomplished with less ability nearly so well remembered.

Dramatic moments that didn't actually matter in the grand scheme elevated him to places his game just can't justify.

He isn't the only one....but he's the most glaring example.

Doesn't mean I don't think he made nice plays or didn't have an interesting style worthy of discussing.

Him being overrated has nothing to do with that. Pistol Pete never won anything in his life, half his teammates hated him, and most teams wouldn't trade for him when he was on the block in his prime.....

Which might make him overrated but it sure as hell doesn't mean he isn't interesting and worthy of discussion and highlight videos.

The two things aren't the least bit related

What do you think maded the public overrate him? Jordan rivalry? Becoming an announcer? Particular game winner?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The only people who think Reggie Miller is "overrated" are those who purposefully compare him to Kobe, Jordan, West, and to a certain extent, Wade.

Basically idiots with an agenda.

[Dro]

Far as publiic opinion in retrospect being greatly at odds with the verifiable opinions from the time..and being more highly regarded than people clearly superior...he is I'd say the second most overrated basketball player of all time.

At times #1. But Pistol Pete has been far less praised lately....he might slip into being underrated in time....

There is no player I can think of less accomplished with less ability nearly so well remembered.

Dramatic moments that didn't actually matter in the grand scheme elevated him to places his game just can't justify.

He isn't the only one....but he's the most glaring example.

Doesn't mean I don't think he made nice plays or didn't have an interesting style worthy of discussing.

Him being overrated has nothing to do with that. Pistol Pete never won anything in his life, half his teammates hated him, and most teams wouldn't trade for him when he was on the block in his prime.....

Which might make him overrated but it sure as hell doesn't mean he isn't interesting and worthy of discussion and highlight videos.

The two things aren't the least bit related
And it still doesn't make any sense. Who would waste time putting together a highlight reel of a player who is the "most overrated player or 2nd most overrated player in NBA history", both which I find absolutely ridiculous by the way. But who wastes time putting together videos of a player that they seemingly don't even like? I've seen you in enough Reggie Miller topics that there's no way you could convince me that you actually have much respect for his game at all.....Hell you say Lou fukin Hudson has an argument over him....

But whatever, once again, topic has become redundant because you seem obsessed with proving how overrated he is. No NBA fan does that to a player that they "like". You do that with players you either don't like that much, or don't respect that much.

"Less accomplished, less ability". Sh*t like that is where you get ridiculous but do your thing bro. Its like you actually think he's horrible but feel some reason to sporadically compliment him while basically down talking him the majority of the time...I think you compliment him JUST so you CAN tear him down...

The sh*t is just too weird for me and I don't even like that fool as a person very much....

[Smoke117]

The only people who think Reggie Miller is "overrated" are those who purposefully compare him to Kobe, Jordan, West, and to a certain extent, Wade.

Basically idiots with an agenda.

I have never once compared him to either. He's overrated by just being compared to Ray Allen who is a far superior basketball player.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I have never once compared him to either. He's overrated by just being compared to Ray Allen who is a far superior basketball player.
I wasn't addressing you personally, but yeah, this is laughable. Reggie literally doubles Ray Allen's scoring in the playoffs. 11 postseason runs of 20ppg vs Allen's 5 or 6? 2 playoff runs of 30ppg or more vs. Allen's 0? This while being a similar playmaker and rebounder. Yeah, Allen's defense is a notch above, but not enough to off-set Reggie's offensive impact.

[Kblaze8855]

If you can't comprehend interest in an interesting player one doesn't personally think highly of we are just very different people.

Being overrated doesn't mean you aren't worth discussing or highlighting. I love basketball. Even overrated hall of famers are interesting. I'm a student of history.

Which may be why I don't see Sweet Lou comparisons as insulting.

Not being famous has nothing to do with basketball. It's arguable that better players than Reggie were in Lou Hudson's supporting cast at times but like so many others....nobody knows shit about him....so he's just worse at the game.

Which is much of how Reggie got overrated to begin with....

[iamgine]

The thing is, okay he's a rather one dimensional player.

But when you really look at his numbers...especially in the playoff...they stand out. His playoff scoring rate and efficiency was better than Larry Bird's. And he does this consistently. It's better than Peja and way better than Glen Rice ever did. And then there's his clutchness which must be worth something.

Where does that put him though?

[Smoke117]

I wasn't addressing you personally, but yeah, this is laughable. Reggie literally doubles Ray Allen's scoring in the playoffs. 11 postseason runs of 20ppg vs Allen's 5 or 6? 2 playoff runs of 30ppg or more vs. Allen's 0? This while being a similar playmaker and rebounder. Yeah, Allen's defense is a notch above, but not enough to off-set Reggie's offensive impact.

Reggie Miller was on better teams...you don't ****ing say? Pat yourself on the back, mate.

[raiderfan19]

I wasn't addressing you personally, but yeah, this is laughable. Reggie literally doubles Ray Allen's scoring in the playoffs. 11 postseason runs of 20ppg vs Allen's 5 or 6? 2 playoff runs of 30ppg or more vs. Allen's 0? This while being a similar playmaker and rebounder. Yeah, Allen's defense is a notch above, but not enough to off-set Reggie's offensive impact.
You realize that 7 of those 11 runs are 1 series? 1 of them is 1 game. Both of the 30s are 1 series. Not hating on them but not super important. Ray was a better player than Reggie. Its not close. Ray's 01 and 05 playoff runs at least match anything reggie ever did. And then if you want to just count clutch stuff and not actual basketball ability or careers, Ray hit arguably the biggest shot in nba history that actually resulted in his team winning a title(whereas all of reggies big shots just meant they lost later)

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Reggie Miller was on better teams...you don't ****ing say? Pat yourself on the back, mate.
He was a better scorer with or without the better teams, dunce.


You realize that 7 of those 11 runs are 1 series? 1 of them is 1 game. Both of the 30s are 1 series. Not hating on them but not super important. Ray was a better player than Reggie. Its not close. Ray's 01 and 05 playoff runs at least match anything reggie ever did. And then if you want to just count clutch stuff and not actual basketball ability or careers, Ray hit arguably the biggest shot in nba history that actually resulted in his team winning a title(whereas all of reggies big shots just meant they lost later)

So basically nothing Reggie did was relevant, while everything Ray did was historic and somewhat noteworthy? Yeah...that's brilliant.

[raiderfan19]

He was a better scorer with or without the better teams, dunce.



So basically nothing Reggie did was relevant, while everything Ray did was historic and somewhat noteworthy? Yeah...that's brilliant.
No im saying losing in the first round doesnt make you better than someone who was clearly a better basketball player just because you got yours. Also Iv never heard of someone losing in the first round as being called a "run."

Does anyone consider karl malone a historically great playoff player/clutch guy? Because he had 17 20 point playoff "runs" and 5 29 point playoff "runs" by your method. Does anyone consider his 89 series against the warriors legendary? Because in that series he avged 31/16 on 50/81 shooting. But they got swept. It happens. Just a really odd argument to make.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No im saying losing in the first round doesnt make you better than someone who was clearly a better basketball player just because you got yours. Also Iv never heard of someone losing in the first round as being called a "run."

Does anyone consider karl malone a historically great playoff player/clutch guy?
That's a silly comparison, because Karl Malone was a perennial choker (be it at the FT line or his all-around numbers dipping in the postseason; Reggie was the complete opposite - literally).


Because he had 17 20 point playoff "runs" and 5 29 point playoff "runs" by your method. Does anyone consider his 89 series against the warriors legendary? Because in that series he avged 31/16 on 50/81 shooting. But they got swept. It happens. Just a really odd argument to make.

How else would you compare their playoff scoring? Not only was Reggie clearly the better volume scorer, but more efficient as well (TS%).

Still not sure what the relevance round 1, 2 or 3 have with these scoring outburts, as the playoffs generally require unequivocal team play.

[bizil]

The thing is, okay he's a rather one dimensional player.

But when you really look at his numbers...especially in the playoff...they stand out. His playoff scoring rate and efficiency was better than Larry Bird's. And he does this consistently. It's better than Peja and way better than Glen Rice ever did. And then there's his clutchness which must be worth something.

Where does that put him though?

I agree. When I mentioned Rice and Peja I said the difference was Miller had those epic playoff moments. Miller played on bigger stages MORE CONSISTENTLY in his career. And over the long haul, Miller played on more talented teams than Peja or Rice. I consider Reggie GOAT wise a top 10 caliber SG. But peak wise, he's not EVEN CLOSE to sniffing the top 10.

[raiderfan19]

lets look at reggies legacy then. Loses in the first round the first 3 times they make the playoffs. Then makes the conference finals twice in a row. Then back to losing in the first. Then doesnt make the playoffs. Then back to the conference finals where he avges 17.4 on 41.6% shooting in a loss. Then back to the conference finals where they lose to the 8th seeded knicks while he avges 16 on 36% shooting. Absolutely a choke. Then to the finals against the shaq lakers where he does avg 24 but again on 41.3% shooting. Then back to losing in the first round though he avged 31.3 so not exactly anything you can complain about. Then lost in the first round again. Then lost in the first round again while he avged 9 ppg on 28% shooting. That was the end of anything that actually mattered as far as him being a star. They did go on to make the conference finals 2 more times with him being a bit player.


So even if you ignore that last one since he was already old. If you use just his career from when you used to call him some great winner. He didnt make the playoffs once, lost in the first round 7 times lost in the conference finals fourt times and lost in the finals once. So in the times he got out of the first round, he ended up shooting below 42% 3 of the 5 series he lost in so really how is this guys clutch record anything to write home about again????

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Another horrible argument. You're essentially blaming Reggie Miller for all his teams playoff losses. :oldlol: Where is the context?

Seriously. Did you..like..forget basketball was a team game? There's a reason I broke down Allen and Millers individual contributions and not their friggin teams' success in the postseason.

[Smoke117]

So basically nothing Reggie did was relevant, while everything Ray did was historic and somewhat noteworthy

When you're right, you're right, son. I can't disagree with this. :applause: :applause: :applause:

[raiderfan19]

Another horrible argument. You're essentially blaming Reggie Miller for all his teams playoff losses. :oldlol: Where is the context?

Seriously. Did you..like..forget basketball was a team game? There's a reason I broke down Allen and Millers individual contributions and not their friggin teams' success in the postseason.


But who counts scoring in first round losses as a great achievement? That gets literally no one other than Reggie any credit. Is Tmac the goat playoff player to you? You are using tiny sample sizes to say reggie was great when it mattered...but he really wasnt. Ray was a better scorer. We know this. It isnt debateable. Reggie had 6 20 ppg seasons...Ray had 8. Reggie had 1 23 ppg season in his whole career. Ray had 4. Reggie had 3 3.5 or higher apg seasons. Ray had 10(Reggie did also have a 3.4)If you make it 4 apg, Ray had 5, reggie had 1) Reggie had 0 4 rpg seasons, Ray had 11.

Ray was a better basketball player than Reggie. Its really not debateable. But because Reggie happened to get hot in series his teams got smoked in a few times that makes him a better player? Despite the fact that Ray in his prime was a monster in the playoffs when his teams were good enough to get there?

[raiderfan19]

Like i said you might have been able to use the "he just won more argument" had reggie actually you know won anything. But Ray won 2 chips the first as arguably the guy who could have won the finals mvp(20/5/3 on 51/52/87 vs pierces 22/5/6 on 43/39/83) and the second after he hit arguably the biggest clutch shot in nba history. But yeah lets go with Reggie i made 1 finals Miller as the better player despite inferior stats, inferior talent and inferior production because he just came up big when it mattered. Reggie fans just blow my mind.

[Dro]

If you can't comprehend interest in an interesting player one doesn't personally think highly of we are just very different people.
I can't and you're right. We're just different...

[Reggie43]

Like i said you might have been able to use the "he just won more argument" had reggie actually you know won anything. But Ray won 2 chips the first as arguably the guy who could have won the finals mvp(20/5/3 on 51/52/87 vs pierces 22/5/6 on 43/39/83) and the second after he hit arguably the biggest clutch shot in nba history. But yeah lets go with Reggie i made 1 finals Miller as the better player despite inferior stats, inferior talent and inferior production because he just came up big when it mattered. Reggie fans just blow my mind.

Which was harder, Ray Allen winning a chip as the 3rd best player in boston or Miller leading his team to the finals? He probably wins more playing with KG and Pierce. hitting a single shot in Miami as a roleplayer hardly is that impressive acting as if hes the only one capable of that tying shot which players on simlar roles like kerr fisher paxson to name a few has done. Look up the stats between Ray and Reggie, the diff is a single reb and half an assist with a significant edge for Miller in efficiency so really cant understand how it is "not close" like most of you preach

[raiderfan19]

Are we talking career stats or peak stats? Because peak stats wise it's basically 2 ppg, 2 rpg, 2 apg which is kind of a lot actually.

[Reggie43]

Are we talking career stats or peak stats? Because peak stats wise it's basically 2 ppg, 2 rpg, 2 apg which is kind of a lot actually.

Career of course. How did you get those numbers? Seems like made up or rounded off to suit your agenda

[raiderfan19]

Took Reggie's 9 year peak vs rays 8 year peak where there were clear statistical cut offs would be fine with taking a year off Reggie's but feel he should get credit for slightly greater longevity.

As for ray winning a title in Boston vs reggie "leading" his team to the finals remember Jalen rose was the best player on the team that went to the finals.

[raiderfan19]

I think reggie fans forget how good ray was in Seattle. 24.6/4.6/4.2 for 5 seasons.

[Reggie43]

Took Reggie's 9 year peak vs rays 8 year peak where there were clear statistical cut offs would be fine with taking a year off Reggie's but feel he should get credit for slightly greater longevity.

As for ray winning a title in Boston vs reggie "leading" his team to the finals remember Jalen rose was the best player on the team that went to the finals.

Yep, clearly made up to suits ones agenda like Espn. As for jalen, he aint leading anyone anywhere on his own team with the attitude he had plus the fact that Miller was still better than him that time even at age 34.

[Kblaze8855]

I can't and you're right. We're just different...


Despite what it may seem I don't let arguments about a guy or feeling hes over or underrated make me disregard his positive or negative qualities. Ive been here since the 00-01 season....at the time...I appeared to many to be a fan of Reggie. The sudden in retrospect overrating had not kicked in.

This isn't my first Reggie video. I made one back then....I know it was about 01 or early 02 because I remember including a clip of someone talking about the spin on Reggies shot being almost musical...and using Eric Sermons "Just like music" which was new at the time. This was 13-14 years ago.

I mentioned a number of things it seemed people had forgotten about. Id seen an NBA action clip mentioning that Reggie hit 14 game winners in one season. I discussed how his low scoring wasn't all he was capable of. All things id agree with and respect now.

The problem is....as he aged and became legendary...in retrospect...people started being crazy disrespectful of people who were just....factually...considered better. In his time and others.

Its shown in this topic. I mentioned Lou Hudson....an all star more than Reggie.....an all nba second teamer....while Reggie never was...a guy who was considered widely better than his teammate Pistol Pete...himself ranked above Reggie...

And I get shit like "****in Lou Hudson" like its hating on Reggie.

I mentioned Dennis Johnson as better than Reggie years ago...I get "Dennis ****ing Johnson" and laughing emoticons like he didn't win what....3 rings...a finals MVP...have great playoff runs...make finals game winners and winning plays....be a 9-10 time all D teamer and be all nba over Magic ****ing Johnson. Dennis...Gus Williams...these dudes can win rings be ranked over guys NOBODY would dare compare Reggie Miller to and due totally to nostalgia, Spike lee feuds, and ESPN specials Reggies name so eclipses theirs that HE is considered disrespected being compared to them.

Local Indy papers had Detlef as better then Reggie early 90s...Mckey was ranked ahead of him by Larry Brown, Phil Jackson, and George Karl mid 90s, and many people thought the Pacers were Jalen Roses team by 2000(that one I disagree with by the way). So....Reggies prime...coaches, media, fans, and players can rank role players and 6th men over him.

20 years later I rank finals MVP legends, all nba first teamers, and all around masters of the total game over him....and im out of line. Coaches say Mookie Blaylock or Michael Adams are ahead....I say Joe Dumars is...you know...all NBA, all star, two way, finals MVP, HOF Joe...

Im the asshole.

It just doesn't make sense. Its nostalgia and rewriting of history at its worst.

Reggies fame from largely irrelevant Knick battles made him more than his game justified.

When guys laugh at dudes like DJ, Lou, and Dumars being compared to/over Reggie I don't know what to call it if not overrated. And im not even counting the clowns who think he was a better scorer than the likes of Wade, Lebron, and Melo. And they exist. And they were serious.

Im talking more rational people.

The general public.

They too just disrespect the hell out of too many greats for me to pretend I don't see it.

[pauk]

Like i said you might have been able to use the "he just won more argument" had reggie actually you know won anything. But Ray won 2 chips the first as arguably the guy who could have won the finals mvp(20/5/3 on 51/52/87 vs pierces 22/5/6 on 43/39/83) and the second after he hit arguably the biggest clutch shot in nba history. But yeah lets go with Reggie i made 1 finals Miller as the better player despite inferior stats, inferior talent and inferior production because he just came up big when it mattered. Reggie fans just blow my mind.

Not everybody is a ringchaser.... Reggie had that opportunity millions of times and turned it down, infact when he retired the last such offer he turned down came from that exact Celtics team/year.

[pauk]

For gods sake people.... Reggie was simply appreciated/respected, he was a blue collar work ethic super loyal guy, he is arguably the greatest shooter ever (greatest ive seen at least), he is arguably the greatest clutch shooter (greatest ive seen at least) as he maybe has hit the most gamewinners/gametying shots in NBA history, wouldnt be surprised at all if that was really the case, no data out there that dates back to all his boxscores / play-by-plays afterall.... he was one of the best trashtalkers ever who didnt simply use it "for fun" like say Jordan or Bird, he would use it to mentally assault you & get under your skin to the point you underperform, just an amazing/unique/memorable character and competitor.....

and he was the best guy i ever seen working without the ball, if you payed attention to the stuff he did to get open, it was freakin educational (ask Rip Hamilton & Ray Allen)....

He really squeezed the hell out of what he had to work with.... by work ethic, will, heart it was all IQ & specialized skill at work 24-7.....

He had legendary longevity & consistency in his game in every aspect from start to finish..... 18 freakin years he was virtually the same exact guy, even at old age he said he simply took a step back to Jermaine O'Neal / Artest "to not hinder their development", S-Jax aswell.... he would let them toy around, do their thing, get their touches & shots... but even then when that 4th quarter came / clutch all of those guys knew what time it was.... he was that real go-to-guy every damn season of his life.... even if Jordan played with him i really do think thats the one guy he wouldnt cry much about letting him take all the Final shots....

Everybody who watched most of his career or especially those guys who played against him saw he was a bit more than meets the statistical paper or accolades.... they saw there is a difference between Reggie and another pure shooter averaging around 20 ppg "like him", especially when push came to shove..... ask his peers, ask Michael Jordan....

Saw his last game? Everybody broke down in tears, including players, coaches, opposing team took a time out just for that and all their players/staff (Pistons) walked out there midcourt to show their appreciation etc...... Thats not how a "random 20 ppg shooter" legacy goes out.... not even.... Joe Dumars....

[Kblaze8855]

That opposing coach who took the time out to let reggie get that standing ovation is on record believing Derek Mckey was better than Reggie..... Though of course we will pretend he meant what you think he meant and not what the words mean.

Larry Brown's opinion of Reggie only counts when you'd like it to.

Though I suppose I can't expect a tight grip on reality from someone saying Michael ****ing Jordan would defer down the stretch and give up the final shot if Reggie Miller were on his team.....

That just isn't a sign I'm dealing with someone who knows anything about the people in question.

[iamgine]

Reggie's playoff per-100 possession #s are very similar to Dirk's minus the rebound. Is it just a case of his numbers are greater than his actual impact?

[Kblaze8855]

Id say if anything Reggie was better than his numbers. I don't think I've ever disputed that.

[iamgine]

Well having playoff per-100 possession #s very similar to Dirk's are something. We can agree that Dirk's way better than Dumars (right?). So why not Miller be at least at Dumars level?

[raiderfan19]

Dirk was 33/13/3.2 per 100 in the playoffs, reggie 30.5/4.3/3.7. There is an absolutely clear answer to which of those players was better.

Also on the jalen/reggie thing, generally speaking when one player avges more points rebounds assists steals and blocks then another and they are the same team, that person is considered the better player.

[iamgine]

Reggie's playoff per-100 possession #s are very similar to Dirk's minus the rebound

[bizil]

Id say if anything Reggie was better than his numbers. I don't think I've ever disputed that.

Well said and right on the money! I always considered Reggie an alpha dog caliber star. My main point of contention with him was his floor game. But in terms of scoring and willing a team, he was an alpha dog. Early in his career, he was putting up 25 points a night.

But as the team added talent and became more defensive minded, I think Indy played to their defense. And Miller became more of a floor spacer INSTEAD of mixing up his scoring like he used to. Early in his career, Miller mixed the midrange and slashing considerably more.

But in comparison to MJ, Drexler, Richmond, and Dumars in his era, his all around game was A LOT MORE LIMITED. That's the main thing that I hold against him. But on a GOAT list, Miller is a top 10 kind of SG. So all in all, Reggie gets his props DESPITE his shortcomings. On several other teams, Miller would have been putting up several 25 PPG seasons.

[Kblaze8855]

Well having playoff per-100 possession #s very similar to Dirk's are something.

No. I don't think its anything at all.



We can agree that Dirk's way better than Dumars (right?).


As an all around player he is not....but he(unlike Reggie) is a scorer on a generational level. Which is not an issue of playoff points per 100. Its an issue of basketball skills. And his absurd tough shot making make him a more valuable weapon even if his total game isn't on that level.

Reggie was no Dirk in that respect.



So why not Miller be at least at Dumars level?


Take out the "at least" I wouldn't have an issue there. They are arguably...on a similar level. What there is no question of is who the best all around player is.

We don't even need to go into his playoff heroics nobody even cares about(game winners.....finals winning blocks)...

He was in the same league...same conference....same position as Reggie...for 12 years. In that 12 years he made more all star games, more all NBA teams(and higher teams...he was second team...Reggie never was), and 5 or 6 all D teams.

He could play 2 positions at a HOF level....was a better ball handler, passer, and defender...

Reggies edge is where it is with most hes compared to. Shooting. And Joe became one of the leagues best outside shooters. Reggie sure as hell didnt become one of the leagues best defenders.

Joe is better than Reggie because he was a far more complete player...who could score himself(Joe was at his best a better one on one scorer than Reggie).

I don't care what either of them put up per 100....

Im looking at them as basketball players.

It just so happens the accolades go Joes way too. Finals MVP, more ASG, more all nba teams, and all this in the same league, conference, and position.

Joe isn't better because he was on a great team that won rings.

Hes better because hes a beast on D and could be hell on offense too.

It isn't rings...its just basketball.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/DumarsPassBulls-548b3edcbc474.gif



http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Michael%20Jordan/VS/Detroit%20Pistons/Joe%20Dumars/vs1.gif


Joe didn't **** around. Jordan...Magic...Bird...guard em all...go back at every one of them.

Just a lot closer to what I want out of my 2 guard.

Reggie was a hell of a shooting guard...Joe Dumars was a hell of a basketball player.

[magnax1]

Dumars is better than Reggie, but Dumars is just one of the most under rated players in NBA history. Probably the best player on both championship teams and his style was really the foundation for their dominance (along with Rodman) with his tough D and team play setting the standard for his team.

However you can criticize Reggie's one on one scoring all you want, fact is he got better results than guys who supposedly were much better at it than him. I mean compare Allen's playoff number's to reggie and he just doesn't stack up plain and simple.

[pauk]

Im biased with Reggie though just so you guys know, i admit im biased and i want to be biased with him, he was my entire childhood, not just a guy i would watch but also the guys game i would emulate as a shooter (including Drazen Petrovic). I would take Reggie over any player in NBA history.... just because... its freakin Reggie... :D

[raiderfan19]

Dumars is better than Reggie, but Dumars is just one of the most under rated players in NBA history. Probably the best player on both championship teams and his style was really the foundation for their dominance (along with Rodman) with his tough D and team play setting the standard for his team.

However you can criticize Reggie's one on one scoring all you want, fact is he got better results than guys who supposedly were much better at it than him. I mean compare Allen's playoff number's to reggie and he just doesn't stack up plain and simple.
How does he not stack up???

[pauk]

Where as Dumars was a better defender Reggie was a better scorer & more clutch and he sustained his peak game MUCH longer than Joe Dumars sustained his..... For 18-20 years (Dumars didnt manage that, but say he did) would you really want Joe Dumars instead?

[raiderfan19]

Well having playoff per-100 possession #s very similar to Dirk's are something. We can agree that Dirk's way better than Dumars (right?). So why not Miller be at least at Dumars level?
You can't say his numbers are similar to dirks when you are ignoring a) 2.5 pp100 and b) the rebounds. Those aren't similar numbers.

[raiderfan19]

Where as Dumars was a better defender Reggie was a better scorer & more clutch and he sustained his peak game MUCH longer than Joe Dumars sustained his.....
Reggie wasn't a better scorer than dumars.

[pauk]

Reggie wasn't a better scorer than dumars.

oh **** me.......... ive heard enough for today....

[magnax1]

How does he not stack up???
Reggies scoring numbers from 92-02 (playoffs) were 23.7 ppg ln 60% TS. Allens from 99-11 were 19.4 on 59 TS%. Their assist and rebound numbers were quite similar. Allen had some bad runs later in his career that miller more or less avoided until his last 3 or so years. I mean in terms of skillset, Im not going to argue Miller is better, but the outcomes clearly favored reggie.

[Kblaze8855]

Dumars is better than Reggie, but Dumars is just one of the most under rated players in NBA history. Probably the best player on both championship teams and his style was really the foundation for their dominance (along with Rodman) with his tough D and team play setting the standard for his team.

However you can criticize Reggie's one on one scoring all you want, fact is he got better results than guys who supposedly were much better at it than him. I mean compare Allen's playoff number's to reggie and he just doesn't stack up plain and simple.


What results were these exactly?

Career totals?

In that....he did indeed exceed many better scorers. But I dont believe thats what you meant.

Reggie gets praise for the most mundane of performances. At his best hes usually losing in dramatic fashion as he scores some unremarkable number of points or winning a second round game that didnt matter by scoring..pretty well..for someone who does nothing else.

People talk up playoff Reggie like he just kicked in the door waving the 44.

Dude had one...one...playoff "run" of 25 points a night...that was not a first round loss. People making a big deal out of 27 points in 44 minutes while getting swept and contributing nothing else to his team. He was hardly out there putting teams to death left and right lighting up everyone in his path.

Lamarcus Aldridge exceeded Reggies playoff career high TWICE...in one series last year. Reggies playoff career high came in a blowout loss he played 44 minutes in while Iverson dropped 45/9.

Reggie gets talk like he went from an ok scorer to all time great when the playoffs started.

He went from a good scorer...to a...very good scorer who plays a lot more minutes.

He sure as hell never did enough scoring to disregard that he had nothing else to offer.

You gonna just score....im gonna need a little more to use it to cover up the lack of anything else.

[magnax1]

What results were these exactly?

Career totals?

In that....he did indeed exceed many better scorers. But I dont believe thats what you meant.

Reggie gets praise for the most mundane of performances. At his best hes usually losing in dramatic fashion as he scores some unremarkable number of points or winning a second round game that didnt matter by scoring..pretty well..for someone who does nothing else.

People talk up playoff Reggie like he just kicked in the door waving the 44.

Dude had one...one...playoff "run" of 25 points a night...that was not a first round loss. People making a big deal out of 27 points in 44 minutes while getting swept and contributing nothing else to his team. He was hardly out there putting teams to death left and right lighting up everyone in his path.

Lamarcus Aldridge exceeded Reggies playoff career high TWICE...in one series last year. Reggies playoff career high came in a blowout loss he played 44 minutes in while Iverson dropped 45/9.

Reggie gets talk like he went from an ok scorer to all time great when the playoffs started.

He went from a good scorer...to a...very good scorer who plays a lot more minutes.

He sure as hell never did enough scoring to disregard that he had nothing else to offer.

You gonna just score....im gonna need a little more to use it to cover up the lack of anything else.
23.7 ppg on 60 TS% over more than a decade in the playoffs is impressive by any measure. Thats close to the scoring numbers Dirk put up his MVP year. Thats another guy who doesnt bring anything but scoring. While Im not saying Reggie was good as Dirk or anything, he definitely was among the better scorers of his era in terms of just putting up impressive numbers.

[bizil]

When comparing Reggie to Joe D, I think Reggie was the better scorer. However, Joe D was a VERY GOOD SCORER! And he was a great defender who could run the PG great as well. Joe D allowed Isiah to get his "Iverson" on at times and move to the SG. Since Isiah was really one of the NBA's most deadly scorers, Daly could ALWAYS inverse his backcourt and get Clyde Frazier style production at the PG in Dumars.

In the two way sense, Joe D is a top 5-6 SG of all time. Other than MJ, West, Wade, and Kobe, what other SG's would u take over Joe D. in the two way sense? And even though Joe D's primary position was SG, in many ways he was the perfect combo guard. When he played PG, he tried to play like a pure PG. When he played SG, he was more aggressive looking for his shot.

[Kblaze8855]

23.7 ppg on 60 TS% over more than a decade in the playoffs is impressive by any measure.

Think for a moment about the number of players who could score at that rate...and have it not be noteworthy. Then tell me again its impressive by any measure.

Its impressive by some measures.

But there is a long list of people nobody cares about when they have 24 points and shoot well.

And that is a list of truly great scorers.

Im gonna ignore the MVP Dirk thing for now. Thats just not going anywhere we need it to.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Think for a moment about the number of players who could score at that rate...and have it not be noteworthy. Then tell me again its impressive by any measure.

Forget the "could" stuff. Name the players who scored w/ that kind of volume AND efficiency.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'll do it for you. These are the perimeter players who had multiple seasons of said criteria:

MJ
Bird
S. Curry
Dantley
Harden
Durant
KJ
Magic
Moncrief
Mullin
Bernard King
Dirk
Kiki Vandeweghe

Aside from maybe Moncrief who was a defensive juggernaut... On that list, who doesn't get notoriety for their scoring ability and efficiency? :confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

When Michael Jordan puts up 37ppg on 51% shooting in the playoffs....and Shaq does 31 on 57%...and neither meets the statistical minimums you ask for im gonna go on and disregard them when the issue is how impressive a scoring performance is.

Its fairly easy to sidestep common sense by introducing a stat minimum that eliminates inconviently great players.

Nobody gives a shit what Shaqs true shooting percentage is when hes dropping 38 on 61% being totally unguardable in the finals.

People considering it less efficient than scoring half as much while making your FTs and a couple threes that did nothing to stave off defeat really...isnt that important to me.

[DMAVS41]

Think for a moment about the number of players who could score at that rate...and have it not be noteworthy. Then tell me again its impressive by any measure.

Its impressive by some measures.

But there is a long list of people nobody cares about when they have 24 points and shoot well.

And that is a list of truly great scorers.

Im gonna ignore the MVP Dirk thing for now. Thats just not going anywhere we need it to.

What are you talking about?

24 points per on 60% TS is absolutely impressive by any measure when talking about scoring over that time frame.

I'm not even a big Reggie guy, but averaging 24 points on 61% TS over 109 playoff games from 1990 to 2002 is absolutely impressive.

What guys are you talking about that could do that over that time period and have nobody care?

[DMAVS41]

When Michael Jordan puts up 37ppg on 51% shooting in the playoffs....and Shaq does 31 on 57%...and neither meets the statistical minimums you ask for im gonna go on and disregard them when the issue is how impressive a scoring performance is.

Its fairly easy to sidestep common sense by introducing a stat minimum that eliminates inconviently great players.

Nobody gives a shit what Shaqs true shooting percentage is when hes dropping 38 on 61% being totally unguardable in the finals.

People considering it less efficient than scoring half as much while making your FTs and a couple threes that did nothing to stave off defeat really...isnt that important to me.

Total shifting of the goal posts. As usual.

You and this damn narrative about "shooting"...it's not the only thing even "shooters" bring to the table.

So now if it's common for Shaq and MJ to do something it's not impressive for another player?

I'd like to know how many guys could average 24 over 12 years of playoff play on great efficiency (forget TS% right now) and not be noteworthy.

You do realize that only 23 players in NBA history average 23 or more per game for their careers in the playoffs...right?

[Kblaze8855]

I'll do it for you. These are the perimeter players who had multiple seasons of said criteria:

MJ
Bird
S. Curry
Dantley
Harden
Durant
KJ
Magic
Moncrief
Mullin
Bernard King
Dirk
Kiki Vandeweghe

Aside from maybe Moncrief who was a defensive juggernaut... On that list, who doesn't get notoriety for their scoring ability and efficiency? :confusedshrug:


Id say its far more telling when people along those lines dont meet the criteria while playing epic ball.....because it makes it painfully obvious that it has nothing to do with if they are better scorers or not.

Never have and never will see the reason to combine several numbers into one and act like its more information....regardless of the subject

I dont care what Cornbreads TS% was relative to Larry Birds. Yes he got well into the 60s. I just....cant care.

When MJ is dropping 30+ on great shooting and his TS% is less than 60 im just not seeing it as less impressive than Reggie. Just...not seeing it.

[Kblaze8855]

Total shifting of the goal posts. As usual.

You and this damn narrative about "shooting"...it's not the only thing even "shooters" bring to the table.

So now if it's common for Shaq and MJ to do something it's not impressive for another player?

I'd like to know how many guys could average 24 over 12 years of playoff play on great efficiency (forget TS% right now) and not be noteworthy.

You do realize that only 23 players in NBA history average 23 or more per game for their careers in the playoffs...right?


Im gonna ask you to read what he said again...and what I did.

If there are people that would be unimpressive from....it isnt impressive by any measure.

Its impressive by the lower standards in place.

Reggie never did anything impressive...by any measure.

He did many things impressive once you throw out people he has no business being compared to. Which is...fine.


And far as 23 people....that number goes up quickly when its just considering their most productive seasons as has been done here with Reggie. Wade for one...not one of your 23. Yet given the same treatment...only counting his prime...of course he would be over 23 a game. Reggie is the 44th leading scorer in the playoffs per game. Which is....great...by some measures. But then you see Dwight is actually ahead of Patrick Ewing as a playoff scorer and it just brings you back to the start where you have to ask...

What does that prove in a discussion of which of them is the better scorer?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Id say its far more telling when people along those lines dont meet the criteria while playing epic ball.....because it makes it painfully obvious that it has nothing to do with if they are better scorers or not.

Never have and never will see the reason to combine several numbers into one and act like its more information....regardless of the subject

I dont care what Cornbreads TS% was relative to Larry Birds. Yes he got well into the 60s. I just....cant care.

That's like comparing Tyson Chandler and his FG% to Jordan's. Comparing 2 players with different roles will never yield orderly results.

Irregardless of TS%, and whether volume scorers like AI/Kobe/TMac show up on the list, Reggie is still one of the most efficient players to score 20 or more points a game. All that other stuff you're bringing up? Fluff to deviate from the actual point. :oldlol:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Reggie is one of the best ever at putting that thing through the net and he's one of the GOAT clutch scorers...With that said, and again, I feel he gets overrated/overhyped nowadays, plenty.

As far as peaks and only counting SG's, I'd take your usual suspects over Reggie - Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade, Drexler, Gervin, Iverson... then probably also Moncrief, Earl the Pearl, Dumars, Ray-Ray, DJ (more of a SG at his best), also got Pistol Pete, Manu, even Sam Jones, shit how about Gail Goodrich or Skywalker Thompson?... Not even comparing Miller to all of those guys, but js that most likely I wouldn't even have him on my top10 peaks for SG's, ofc not denying that he's one of the best 2guards ever, and had longevity like few others.

[Kblaze8855]

Its like comparing Chandler to Jordan? 2 scoring tweener forwards playing on the same team...similar minutes...is like comparing Chandler to Michael Jordan? Im just gonna say I dont agree and move on.

The issue was(at least with what I responded to)...how impressive it is.

Not if its factually accurate that not many people shoot...whatever Reggies TS is.

On the matter of how impressive that makes his scoring....

When I see factually superior scorers putting him to shame...but not meeting the minimums requested...all it does is show me why I dont need to consider it.

When Jordan "fails" to meet this standard while totally destroying everyone in his path...

When 36ppg on 54% with 87% from the line doesnt cut it because Jordan only took 3 threes in the playoffs...

Why am I caring?

Am I really to consider what Reggie was doing more impressive?

Of course not. And im sure you dont either.

That considered....if its more "efficient" but clearly a worse performance why are we using it to determine performance in the first place?

Reggie was not an especially high level performer as a scorer.

His TS% destroys a lot of people...who just destroy him as a scorer. So how much am I expected to care?

[DMAVS41]

Im gonna ask you to read what he said again...and what I did.

If there are people that would be unimpressive from....it isnt impressive by any measure.

Its impressive by the lower standards in place.

Reggie never did anything impressive...by any measure.

He did many things impressive once you throw out people he has no business being compared to. Which is...fine.


And far as 23 people....that number goes up quickly when its just considering their most productive seasons as has been done here with Reggie. Wade for one...not one of your 23. Yet given the same treatment...only counting his prime...of course he would be over 23 a game. Reggie is the 44th leading scorer in the playoffs per game. Which is....great...by some measures. But then you see Dwight is actually ahead of Patrick Ewing as a playoff scorer and it just brings you back to the start where you have to ask...

What does that prove in a discussion of which of them is the better scorer?


I'm not getting into any of this other shit you are going off on like Ewing and Wade.

I'm simply saying that when you score 24 ppg on absurd efficiency in the playoffs over 109 games over 12 year period...it's ****ing impressive for any player.

You don't think scoring efficiency matters as much...we get that, but you can't just discount it because you think it undervalues other players.

You bring up MJ and Shaq, but scoring wasn't only what made them great like it did for Reggie.

It's impressive by any measure because so few scorers in NBA history were able to do that.

Doesn't matter if you like the results or not really.

You also seem to really discount the off ball impact of all time great shooters. This isn't really the debate here, but I think it leads to you undervaluing certain players.

Again, you are the same guy that said Frye and Dirk would be near identical players if Frye shot as well as Dirk. You either don't know anything about the impact/style of certain players, or you just haven't seen enough of these players play. Even Reggie...far more of just a "shooter", like you always say, had a great offensive impact just being on the court. It was more than just shooting. His ability to read the defense, run off screens...just general off ball play...that impacted his team quite a bit as well. Some guys have that...others don't. Morrow might be the most wet guy in the league, but he can't do a lot of the things that made Reggie...Reggie.

So if Reggie is just a shooter...what's the difference between Reggie and Morrow? It sure as hell isn't only shooting.

[Kblaze8855]

If Michael Jordan(just the most obvious example) performed like Reggie Miller...scoring wise.....it is not up to his standards. Meaning...by that measure...it isnt impressive.

There are people you can say are impressive by any measure. Reggie just isnt one of them.

It doesnt mean its unimpressive...period.

It means "By any standard" sets a bar too high for Reggie to reach.

[ImKobe]

If Michael Jordan(just the most obvious example) performed like Reggie Miller...scoring wise.....it is not up to his standards. Meaning...by that measure...it isnt impressive.

There are people you can say are impressive by any measure. Reggie just isnt one of them.

It doesnt mean its unimpressive...period.

It means "By any standard" sets a bar too high for Reggie to reach.

I could name many guards from this era that have performed at a much higher level, Ray Allen is the best example, because he played a similar style.

[Kblaze8855]

And you can call the Ewing and Wade par "other shit" but you tell me only 23 people have done something....giving Reggie credit for doing it....seems fair to point out that Reggie did not himself do it...he just did it when you only count his prime. A standard not applied to the others in question.

You tell me 23 have done it...not 23 when you throw out non prime years as is being done with Reggie.

Considering only primes...the list grows. A lot.

Feels more than fair to point out.

[DMAVS41]

If Michael Jordan(just the most obvious example) performed like Reggie Miller...scoring wise.....it is not up to his standards. Meaning...by that measure...it isnt impressive.

There are people you can say are impressive by any measure. Reggie just isnt one of them.

It doesnt mean its unimpressive...period.

It means "By any standard" sets a bar too high for Reggie to reach.

I'm really not sure about that. I certainly wouldn't say it was unimpressive if MJ had a run where he scored 24 ppg on 61% TS.

It would be the rest of his game that would make or break how well he was playing.

[DMAVS41]

And you can call the Ewing and Wade par "other shit" but you tell me only 23 people have done something....giving Reggie credit for doing it....seems fair to point out that Reggie did not himself do it...he just did it when you only count his prime. A standard not applied to the others in question.

You tell me 23 have done it...not 23 when you throw out non prime years as is being done with Reggie.

Considering only primes...the list grows. A lot.

Feels more than fair to point out.

I was just pointing out that scoring isn't that high in the playoffs.

Shit...there are only 52 guys for their careers over 20 per game in the playoffs.

Not to mention this wasn't a small sample from Reggie....it's a career type sample actually from 90 through 02. I'm not sure you'd have a lot of guys added on that list over a 12 year period.

[Kblaze8855]

I cant imagine what he could do to make 24ppg out of Jordan coincide with a run that lives up to his standards.

What...scoring aside...did he not do well enough....that if he improved it..it covers the difference?

He didnt have much room to rise as a defender. He was scoring his ass off and making plays for others.

I grant you...if hes doing 24 on 61% with 14 assists a game and 12 rebounds...fine.

But....im keeping it in the realm of reality. At least a little.

I cant see a 24ppg prime Jordan not being see as having an off run in any realistic scenario. Not that a 25 year old Jordan scoring 24 in the playoffs is realistic to begin with...but you know what I mean.

[DMAVS41]

I cant imagine what he could do to make 24ppg out of Jordan coincide with a run that lives up to his standards.

What...scoring aside...did he not do well enough....that if he improved it..it covers the difference?

He didnt have much room to rise as a defender. He was scoring his ass off and making plays for others.

I grant you...if hes doing 24 on 61% with 14 assists a game and 12 rebounds...fine.

But....im keeping it in the realm of reality. At least a little.

I cant see a 24ppg prime Jordan not being see as having an off run in any realistic scenario. Not that a 25 year old Jordan scoring 24 in the playoffs is realistic to begin with...but you know what I mean.

You seem like you are ignoring the efficiency part of it though. I'm just not sure I even agree with you using the most obvious example. MJ scores 24 a game on 61% TS and I don't know what I call it. I'd have to see the games, but I'd be hard pressed to find the right word as "unimpressive"....

That scoring efficiency from Reggie was all time great. That really matters. Doesn't mean he's something he clearly wasn't as a player, but I'm just not sure there was a player...where said player could put 24 on 61% TS and it be deemed not impressive.

It might be deemed not his best or something...but "unimpressive' just doesn't feel like the right word.

[Kblaze8855]

I was just pointing out that scoring isn't that high in the playoffs.

Shit...there are only 52 guys for their careers over 20 per game in the playoffs.

Not to mention this wasn't a small sample from Reggie....it's a career type sample actually from 90 through 02. I'm not sure you'd have a lot of guys added on that list over a 12 year period.


Of course you wouldnt.

Nobody said Reggie didnt have longevity. That was...the premise of the topic. He had a long prime.

But he didnt peak especially high.

I dont think when the issue is David Thompson vs Reggie as scorers im holding his injury/personal problems against him.

What I choose to consider...is that he dropped 52 in a half on 20/23 shooting...reluctantly...at the behest of his coach and teammates who wanted to see him win a scoring title.

Dude could have dropped 90 at will....and chose not to...because he didnt feel comfortable. His own coach(Larry Brown) told him to go for it...his teammates begged him to break Wilts record...and he just coasts not wanting to be selfish. Dropped 73 halfassing it not attacking the basket like he did in the first half. Know what he told Brown? "I just wanna play balll...". Can drop 100 just for the **** the of it...doesnt want it. Doesnt care.

I dont know if im considering whatever he had going on when he was 36 you know? The longevity isnt really an issue to me in these things.

[DMAVS41]

Of course you wouldnt.

Nobody said Reggie didnt have longevity. That was...the premise of the topic. He had a long prime.

But he didnt peak especially high.

I dont think when the issue is David Thompson vs Reggie as scorers im holding his injury/personal problems against him.

What I choose to consider...is that he dropped 52 in a half on 20/23 shooting...reluctantly...at the behest of his coach and teammates who wanted to see him win a scoring title.

Dude could have dropped 90 at will....and chose not to...because he didnt feel comfortable. His own coach(Larry Brown) told him to go for it...and he just coasts not wanting to be selfish. Dropped 73 halfassing it not attacking the basket like he did in the first half.

I dont know if im considering whatever he had going on when he was 36 you know? The longevity isnt really an issue to me in these things.


Well, if we are ignoring longevity...then I agree with you for the most part.

Still think it's a bit better to do what Reggie did on the offensive side than you do, but I think the post that I saw you respond to was factoring in longevity.

If that isn't the issue...then it brings in a whole host of other players/things and I can see where you are coming from.

[raiderfan19]

23.7 ppg on 60 TS% over more than a decade in the playoffs is impressive by any measure. Thats close to the scoring numbers Dirk put up his MVP year. Thats another guy who doesnt bring anything but scoring. While Im not saying Reggie was good as Dirk or anything, he definitely was among the better scorers of his era in terms of just putting up impressive numbers.
In Reggie's 8 year peak(the only years he avged 20 a game and I'm including the 19.5 as a 20 to get to 8 years, reggie avged 21/3/3. For 11 years from 00-01 through 10-11 dirk avged 24/9/3. If you want to pretend like that isn't a notable difference... Then we just don't see eye to eye on basketball even ignoring that dirk created his own shots and distorted a defense as much as anyone ever. As for playoffs, dirk has 5 seasons where he got out of the first round and avged 25+ for the run. Reggie has 1. Dirk avged 26 for his career in the playoffs. And for all the talk that all dirk does is score... He was a very good rebounder for a long time. You can't compare a guy who avged 10+ rebounds in his playoff career and 9+ for about a decade in the regular season with a guy who avged 3 and pretend like that doesn't matter. It'd be one thing if Reggie had assists to make up for it but reggie didn't pass either.

[DMAVS41]

In Reggie's 8 year peak(the only years he avged 20 a game and I'm including the 19.5 as a 20 to get to 8 years, reggie avged 21/3/3. For 11 years from 00-01 through 10-11 dirk avged 24/9/3. If you want to pretend like that isn't a notable difference... Then we just don't see eye to eye on basketball even ignoring that dirk created his own shots and distorted a defense as much as anyone ever. As for playoffs, dirk has 5 seasons where he got out of the first round and avged 25+ for the run. Reggie has 1. Dirk avged 26 for his career in the playoffs. And for all the talk that all dirk does is score... He was a very good rebounder for a long time. You can't compare a guy who avged 10+ rebounds in his playoff career and 9+ for about a decade in the regular season with a guy who avged 3 and pretend like that doesn't matter. It'd be one thing if Reggie had assists to make up for it but reggie didn't pass either.

I think he was talking about the playoffs.

And don't bother with the Dirk vs Reggie or Dirk vs Frye crap....just people making stupid comparisons.

[raiderfan19]

I think he was talking about the playoffs.

And don't bother with the Dirk vs Reggie or Dirk vs Frye crap....just people making stupid comparisons.
26/10/3/1/1/2 for dirk vs 21/3/3/1/0/2 for Reggie playoff careers. I could do peak stuff but if you can't see the difference in their careers... It's ridiculous.

[Kblaze8855]

You can't compare a guy who avged 10+ rebounds in his playoff career and 9+ for about a decade in the regular season with a guy who avged 3 and pretend like that doesn't matter.

Id say you can disregard it...when one is a bigman and the other a 2 guard.

Dirk is better than Reggie(not worth discussing of course) but rebounding isnt why.

Dirk is so much better than Reggie because he takes all Reggie has to offer(shooting) to such an absurd level...and with such size...that he doesnt require anything special to make shots.

Dirk doesnt need 4 screens to get open. Dirk doesnt need to get open. Being open is a luxury for Dirk. Reggie had to work so hard to do what he could. Dirk can just make a:


https://tragicjohnsonblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/marbury.gif


shot that doesnt make any sense and not break a sweat.

Which is why he fits in any offense. A guy who needs nothing to prosper is just easier to build around than a guy like Reggie who needs a lot of moving parts and well designed plays to be at his best.

All the rest he has over Reggie is just gravy.

[raiderfan19]

I understand the thought process that it doesn't matter due to the role, but when you are comparing stats, that gap is usually made up by assists for the guard and it evens out. But in this case... Reggie doesn't have have that. Basically dirk gives you all the guard skills reggie gave you +regular big skills. That's what made dirk special.

[Reggie43]

Id say you can disregard it...when one is a bigman and the other a 2 guard.

Dirk is better than Reggie(not worth discussing of course) but rebounding isnt why.

Dirk is so much better than Reggie because he takes all Reggie has to offer(shooting) to such an absurd level...and with such size...that he doesnt require anything special to make shots.

Dirk doesnt need 4 screens to get open. Dirk doesnt need to get open. Being open is a luxury for Dirk. Reggie had to work so hard to do what he could. Dirk can just make a:


https://tragicjohnsonblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/marbury.gif


shot that doesnt make any sense and not break a sweat.

Which is why he fits in any offense. A guy who needs nothing to prosper is just easier to build around than a guy like Reggie who needs a lot of moving parts and well designed plays to be at his best.

All the rest he has over Reggie is just gravy.

Dirk is better and scores with much more ease than Reggie but the comments you made here contradicts the video you made which was expected. Showing his other "skills" then immediately disregarding them to prove a point :facepalm

[Reggie43]

Also on the jalen/reggie thing, generally speaking when one player avges more points rebounds assists steals and blocks then another and they are the same team, that person is considered the better player.

Look at their playoff numbers then tell me who was better.

[The Iron Sheik]

that's what i've always said: reggie was a great player, but people acting like he carried his teams when they were most successful were just too young to remember how those teams operated.

[raiderfan19]

Look at their playoff numbers then tell me who was better.
Reggie avged 24/2/3 on 45/40/94 jalen avged 21/4/3 on 44/44/80. Not exactly enough to make up a season of being clearly worse.

[Reggie43]

Reggie avged 24/2/3 on 45/40/94 jalen avged 21/4/3 on 44/44/80. Not exactly enough to make up a season of being clearly worse.

if you know anything about Reggie he always coasted during the regular season and performed better in the playoffs. Its actually a somewhat fair comparison so I wont prolong it if you think jalen in his prime was better than miller way past his.

[Kblaze8855]

Dirk is better and scores with much more ease than Reggie but the comments you made here contradicts the video you made which was expected. Showing his other "skills" then immediately disregarding them to prove a point :facepalm

There isn't a player to average 20 in the history of the sport you couldn't make a highlight video of showing many skills. as always the issue is relative. nobody actually thinks Reggie did nothing but make completely uncontested jumpers. The issue is the extent of the rest of his game and how easily he could apply it to being successful when compared to the people in question.

I've done videos on role players that someone who didn't know them could assume to be super stars if they had no other evidence.

That's how these things work you know?

A comprehensive Brent Barry video with no other evidence would make him look like one of the greatest players of all time.

He would most certainly look like a far better all around player than Reggie Miller if only for the passing, crazy hangtime shots, dunks. and handles.

But it wouldn't mean he generally applied those skills to be more effective.

I do these things to showcase people I consider interesting. Not necessarily to defend them.

Reggie was a significant figure at one time in the game I love and he had a style I consider interesting and at times fun to watch. I need no other reason to try to expand knowledge of that game.

I made a Karl Malone video too and unlike Reggie I actually dislike him. its never been about that. It's just about interesting people and showing people who may have missed them how they actually played. Why do you think I include so many plays that arent traditional highlights? Like Reggie getting an uncontested layup off a screen? Or...pretty much the second half of this video on Karl:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=459NuJnRyxQ

?


Because im trying to give an accurate representation of how they played...not a string of highlights that doesnt really show you how they went about the game. That why the Karl one is in two parts...young Karl and old. Two distinct styles. Im not trying to get people to ooh and aah with a bunch of special effects. I dont care. Ive been doing this for a long time. I know how to add special effects like anyone else. But it wouldnt make it more accurate would it?

If one person who knew nothing about Reggie he didn't see on an ESPN special feels he learned something it was worth it. I've always felt that way.

I show things like this to younger family members who love basketball but missed the whole era. That's kinda the point. Not who I feel is over or underrated. Reggie is a justifiable Hall of Famer well worth discussion.

[Reggie43]

There isn't a player to average 20 in the history of the sport you couldn't make a highlight video of showing many skills. as always the issue is relative. nobody actually thinks Reggie did nothing but make completely uncontested jumpers. The issue is the extent of the rest of his game and how easily he could apply it to being successful when compared to the people in question.

I've done videos on role players that someone who didn't know them could assume to be super stars if they had no other evidence.

That's how these things work you know?

A comprehensive Brent Barry video with no other evidence would make him look like one of the greatest players of all time.

He would most certainly look like a far better all around player than Reggie Miller if only for the passing, crazy hangtime shots, dunks. and handles.

But it wouldn't mean he generally applied those skills to be more effective.

I do these things to showcase people I consider interesting. Not necessarily to defend them.

Reggie was a significant figure at one time in the game I love and he had a style I consider interesting and at times fun to watch. I need no other reason to try to expand knowledge of that game.

I made a Karl Malone video too and unlike Reggie I actually dislike him. its never been about that. It's just about interesting people and showing people who may have missed them how they actually played. Why do you think I include so many plays that arent traditional highlights? Like Reggie getting an uncontested layup off a screen? Or...pretty much the second half of this video on Karl:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=459NuJnRyxQ

?


Because im trying to give an accurate representation of how they played...not a string of highlights that doesnt really show you how they went about the game. That why the Karl one is in two parts...young Karl and old. Two distinct styles. Im not trying to get people to ooh and aah with a bunch of special effects. I dont care. Ive been doing this for a long time. I know how to add special effects like anyone else. But it wouldnt make it more accurate would it?

If one person who knew nothing about Reggie he didn't see on an ESPN special feels he learned something it was worth it. I've always felt that way.

I show things like this to younger family members who love basketball but missed the whole era. That's kinda the point. Not who I feel is over or underrated. Reggie is a justifiable Hall of Famer well worth discussion.

I was mainly referring to your subtle jabs on how Miller would be hard to fit in any offense and he needed specific plays and needed all those screens when half the time he was going iso on the perimeter and midrange and was pretty effective. His play in international comp shows how easy it is for him to adapt, starting over much better players and even leading the team along with barkley in 94.

It seems to me that you penalize Miller for playing a role for the good of the team too much. What do you want him to do? Isolate midrange all the time and handle the ball more to show his skills, which in turn decreases the effectivity of both Mark Jackson and Rik Smits?

Pretty obvious you could make anyone look great on a bball mix so no need to mention that part or was it the agenda all along with the Miller video? To show those moves and tell us how infrequent he used them when anyone who saw him play in his prime knows that was half his game.

[Kblaze8855]

My intention was as it always is with these things. To show how someone played the game and that is all. I could love them or I could hate them it's irrelevant. I've done 300 of these things by now.....

I've always felt the less represented players need coverage too if they were interesting and good enough to justify it. Doesn't mean I think all of them are unbelievably great. And Reggie isn't even an unknown....but his true game I felt gets little coverage.

But there is good reason Reggie was asked to take a step back and stop trying to be the traditional big time scorer. He wasn't on the level required for that style of play to be effective. His coaches saw it and to his credit he accepted the changes they asked of him.

We really need to go over this again? Not like I'm making it up. You know I can prove it. What are we doing here?

[Kblaze8855]

I'll leave it at this as far as my motivations.....

My interest in the game goes well beyond the people I find rated appropriately one way or the other.

Being overrated by many doesn't mean you don't deserve some measure of respect for being great enough at a game we all played to be internationally rated in the first place.

If that doesn't explain it I don't know how else to do it.

[iamgine]

How are we to penalize people for only being able to score a certain way. Shaq was the same way. He can't shoot, he don't really have that many moves (he had some) but he was able to create in his own way. It's the same with players like Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton, Kyle Korver. They are mainly able to create and score in a certain way and it's effective. It's not as versatile as many other scorers but who cares when it's just as effective? Wasn't Shaq just as effective as Hakeem despite lacking the moves, shooting ability, defense and being a liability at the end of games?

[Reggie43]

My intention was as it always is with these things. To show how someone played the game and that is all. I could love them or I could hate them it's irrelevant. I've done 300 of these things by now.....

I've always felt the less represented players need coverage too if they were interesting and good enough to justify it. Doesn't mean I think all of them are unbelievably great. And Reggie isn't even an unknown....but his true game I felt gets little coverage.

But there is good reason Reggie was asked to take a step back and stop trying to be the traditional big time scorer. He wasn't on the level required for that style of play to be effective. His coaches saw it and to his credit he accepted the changes they asked of him.

We really need to go over this again? Not like I'm making it up. You know I can prove it. What are we doing here?

The problem is that everyone that is generally accepted on Reggies tier is all better than him in your opinion and it seems like a crime to you if anyone says otherwise. Mitch, Ray, Spree, Dumars etc. Stats or results wont matter, Reggie winning those matchups or leading his teams farther wont matter just because you said so.

[Kblaze8855]

Its funny you mention that because I've been in the car most of the morning listening to Mike and Mike argue the same thing. Someone mentioned that Dan Marino is no less a quarterback when he loses and Greenberg completely disagreed....

Was acting like the idea of the Dan Marino being great is only an opinion while the accomplishments of others are facts and that determines who the best player is.

That just isn't something there's much middle ground on. If when asked who is better you are considering who is better and not a string of things which are known to happen independent of your individual ability you just don't have much room for ''_____ beat _____ and therefore _____" talk.

We just aren't gonna see eye to eye on this issue.

As for the other post... If all you have is a knife and all I have is a machine gun we may be equally one dimensional... but we sure arent equally effective if the goal is doing damage.

[iamgine]

^you might have misunderstood what was said.

[Kblaze8855]

Perhaps, but that felt like the logical place to go in a discussion on Shaq and Reggie Miller arguably being equally one dimensional. What you say it the wrong way I apologize.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Its like comparing Chandler to Jordan? 2 scoring tweener forwards playing on the same team...similar minutes...is like comparing Chandler to Michael Jordan? Im just gonna say I dont agree and move on.

You might as well be comparing the two. Maxwell and Bird played totally different, and by that, I mean Bird shot more and was generally asked to score more as well. Their FGA per should be a telling sign to anyone that using them in a comparison would lend f*cked up results.


The issue was(at least with what I responded to)...how impressive it is.

Not if its factually accurate that not many people shoot...whatever Reggies TS is.

On the matter of how impressive that makes his scoring....

When I see factually superior scorers putting him to shame...but not meeting the minimums requested...all it does is show me why I dont need to consider it.

Except this list doesn't suggest or imply any of that. Reggie was one of the most efficient high volume scorers ever (playoffs). A guy who has multiple seasons and playoff runs of 20ppg+ on 60%+ TS ... Nothing more, nothing less.

Only a complete buffoon wouldn't find that impressive, by the way.

[iamgine]

^exactly. Consider that Reggie played in a slower paced team and his average per-100 possession scoring # in his deep playoff runs are in the 30+. On around 60 TS%.

Those are very impressive playoff numbers not many could match.

[Kblaze8855]

Once again the concept of relative performance seems completely foreign so I will attempt to put it as simply as I can once more.

If you read what I've been saying you will find that I did not say it is literally unimpressive I said it is not impressive by any measure because any measure includes a number of people that Reggies performance would be a letdown for.

I may disagree with you but I don't find you stupid so I'm going to assume you now know what I mean and leave it alone.

I will say that I don't believe 20 a game is high volume by the standards used here. Once again an issue of relativity.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Once again the concept of relative performance seems completely foreign so I will attempt to put it as simply as I can once more.

Relative to whoever you might be comparing him to (me? perimeter players), scoring 20ppg on 60%TS+ for multiple seasons and playoff runs (~45%FG / 40%3PT / 90%FT) is impressive by any measure.


If you read what I've been saying you will find that I did not say it is literally unimpressive I said it is not impressive by any measure because any measure includes a number of people that Reggies performance would be a letdown for.

You have unrealistic standards, but whatever. I don't really have the patience to argue something I feel is common sense.

[Reggie43]

Once again the concept of relative performance seems completely foreign so I will attempt to put it as simply as I can once more.

If you read what I've been saying you will find that I did not say it is literally unimpressive I said it is not impressive by any measure because any measure includes a number of people that Reggies performance would be a letdown for.

I may disagree with you but I don't find you stupid so I'm going to assume you now know what I mean and leave it alone.

I will say that I don't believe 20 a game is high volume by the standards used here. Once again an issue of relativity.

How about this, those numbers are impressive relative to the tier he was in. Stop comparing him to the jordans, dirks or whoever you like to use to discredit miller

[Kblaze8855]

Of course impressive relative to its tier. Everyone is impressive relative to the players they are equal to. That's why they are in that tier to begin with.

I've said time and again that I don't mind Reggie being considered roughly equal to a number of people. Joe Dumars and Dennis Johnson being laughed at here were two examples cited earlier as things that bug me.. In this very topic someone's laughing at Lou Hudson compared to Reggie.

Things like that are far too common. That old greatest guards topic I help to run kinda reignited my feelings on Reggie being overrated. Laughing emoticons next to Dennis ****ing Johnson somewhat pissed me off.

And that was before he died.....

[Reggie43]

Of course impressive relative to its tier. Everyone is impressive relative to the players they are equal to. That's why they are in that tier to begin with.

I've said time and again that I don't mind Reggie being considered roughly equal to a number of people. Joe Dumars and Dennis Johnson being laughed at here were two examples cited earlier as things that bug me.. In this very topic someone's laughing at Lou Hudson compared to Reggie.

Things like that are far too common. That old greatest guards topic I help to run kinda reignited my feelings on Reggie being overrated. Laughing emoticons next to Dennis ****ing Johnson somewhat pissed me off.

And that was before he died.....

Dennis Johnson was better but Dumars is arguable because he won besides a top 2-3 pg in history in isiah and an alltime great defensive frontcourt plus he never had that longevity. its also not that hard to imagine Reggie winning with the Badboy Pistons in place of Dumars because the team was that good. Old timers getting left off lists aint that surprising because fewer people saw them play or atleast did their research which is I admit pretty unfair

[inclinerator]

I think Reggie's shot was textbook... feet, shoulders, going straight up, down, the form, release, follow through, wrist flick, the ball has massive spin and great arc.... its smooth, beautiful.... the only thing which may fool somebody it wasnt so uber nice is his tendency afterwards, where his arm usually goes against his left hand almost doing a "hand/wrist slap" like:

http://abovetherim.com.au/nba/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/7-89012164.jpg

But this has nothing to do with the shot, its just a.... thing... of his... after everything.... everything just before that is the most perfect looking jumpshot ever according to me.... i think Ray Allen's is to quick & the arc is to flat, for my taste, although its perfect aswell....

Check this out, his shot is sex:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/reggie-miller-still-has-the-sweetest-shot-you-ll-ever-see-011947709.html

Absolutely perfect technique...... watch and learn......

Just dont copy that "hand slap" thing afterwards he does sometimes, its not necessary... :P

not even close, his elbows flair out

[Kblaze8855]

Dennis Johnson was better but Dumars is arguable because he won besides a top 2-3 pg in history in isiah and an alltime great defensive frontcourt plus he never had that longevity. its also not that hard to imagine Reggie winning with the Badboy Pistons in place of Dumars because the team was that good. Old timers getting left off lists aint that surprising because fewer people saw them play or atleast did their research which is I admit pretty unfair

Im gonna show you one of the many absurd posts on the subject of DJ vs Reggie(Reggie won the vote 10-4...most saying it wasnt close):




wtf! blasphemy!!

REGGIE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
DENNIS


R.I.P and all... but dayum! cmon.... Reggie of all the SG's was probably scoring wise the most efficient shooter EVER..... and probably the most clutch player ever....... seriously...... Jordan might have done it in more highlighted stages......

but if you made some clutch stats of his 18 year clutch shots you would see that nobody hit more clutch shots than him during the seasons (and one of the best in playoffs to)........... literally every single game he would hit somekindof clutch shot..... his DURABILITY & CONSISTANCY was out of this freakin world......................

did you know the 39 year old Reggie was just as good as any Prime Reggie? Even with health and somewhat athleticism.......

Reggie always said: "I dont want to be in the way of player development" and let guys like Artest-Oneal and so on become all-stars, 1st options and so on..............

He proved it anytime he felt or was forced to have a greenlight and take more than 10 fieldgoal attempts... like on his birthday or when Jermaine Oneal/ Artest were injured or in his retirement game and so on.............. like that 39 @ 39 game....

did you also know that Reggie was not a shotjacker? He never took more than 29 fieldgoal attempts in his life.......... and the time he DID take 29 FG attempts......... he scored 57 points............... if he took at least 20 FG attempts a game like (insert 90s superstar name here) he would be a 28-37 ppg averaging PURE SHOOTER on 50-40-90.........


Shit is a joke.....

[bizil]

Reggie is one of the best ever at putting that thing through the net and he's one of the GOAT clutch scorers...With that said, and again, I feel he gets overrated/overhyped nowadays, plenty.

As far as peaks and only counting SG's, I'd take your usual suspects over Reggie - Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade, Drexler, Gervin, Iverson... then probably also Moncrief, Earl the Pearl, Dumars, Ray-Ray, DJ (more of a SG at his best), also got Pistol Pete, Manu, even Sam Jones, shit how about Gail Goodrich or Skywalker Thompson?... Not even comparing Miller to all of those guys, but js that most likely I wouldn't even have him on my top10 peaks for SG's, ofc not denying that he's one of the best 2guards ever, and had longevity like few others.

Well said! Many Miller fans that get too defensive when it comes to Reggie need to understand something. A GOAT list factors solo accolades, team accolades, numbers, peak value, longevity being great, and impact on the league. In that realm, I think Reggie is a top 10 SG. The GOAT list is the DEFINING LIST and the one that gets guys in a HOF. So no doubt Reggie is a legend and had a legendary career.

Peak value is a TOTALLY different thing. It's more about your numbers and the talent u bring to the table at your best. Awards like MVP's, All Star games, and All NBA teams are ACTUALLY OPINIONS! They are voted on! Your numbers and actual talent are straight up facts! This is the realm were Reggie falls WAY BEHIND OTHER SG's.

To be frank, Reggie may not even be a top 20 SG peak wise. There are TOO MANY GUYS who can score just as good or better. But THE KEY is their floor games were also better than Reggie's. And that's the MAJOR SHORTCOMING of Reggie's career.

[Reggie43]

Peak value is a TOTALLY different thing. It's more about your numbers and the talent u bring to the table at your best. Awards like MVP's, All Star games, and All NBA teams are ACTUALLY OPINIONS! They are voted on! Your numbers and actual talent are straight up facts! This is the realm were Reggie falls WAY BEHIND OTHER SG's.

To be frank, Reggie may not even be a top 20 SG peak wise. There are TOO MANY GUYS who can score just as good or better. But THE KEY is their floor games were also better than Reggie's. And that's the MAJOR SHORTCOMING of Reggie's career.

Regular season awards hardly matter and what is important is how you perform on the bigger stage when every win counts.

How about giving me a list of all those Sgs who perform better and lead their own teams farther in the playoffs outside of the obvious Jordans, Kobes, Wades and Drexlers.

Having more skills is great but if you cant use it effectively and be more efficient it wont even matter. Iverson for example is an obviously much better/skilled player than Reggie and he has a significant edge in the regular season over Miller on those matchups but when playoff time comes around Miller matches his scoring and kills him in regards to efficiency and wins most of the time.

Thats the thing that most of you find it hard to understand about Millers game, how he could coast through the regular season and then suddenly become a different animal in the playoffs.

[Reggie43]

Im gonna show you one of the many absurd posts on the subject of DJ vs Reggie(Reggie won the vote 10-4...most saying it wasnt close):



Quote:
wtf! blasphemy!!

REGGIE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
DENNIS


R.I.P and all... but dayum! cmon.... Reggie of all the SG's was probably scoring wise the most efficient shooter EVER..... and probably the most clutch player ever....... seriously...... Jordan might have done it in more highlighted stages......

but if you made some clutch stats of his 18 year clutch shots you would see that nobody hit more clutch shots than him during the seasons (and one of the best in playoffs to)........... literally every single game he would hit somekindof clutch shot..... his DURABILITY & CONSISTANCY was out of this freakin world......................

did you know the 39 year old Reggie was just as good as any Prime Reggie? Even with health and somewhat athleticism.......

Reggie always said: "I dont want to be in the way of player development" and let guys like Artest-Oneal and so on become all-stars, 1st options and so on..............

He proved it anytime he felt or was forced to have a greenlight and take more than 10 fieldgoal attempts... like on his birthday or when Jermaine Oneal/ Artest were injured or in his retirement game and so on.............. like that 39 @ 39 game....

did you also know that Reggie was not a shotjacker? He never took more than 29 fieldgoal attempts in his life.......... and the time he DID take 29 FG attempts......... he scored 57 points............... if he took at least 20 FG attempts a game like (insert 90s superstar name here) he would be a 28-37 ppg averaging PURE SHOOTER on 50-40-90.........


Shit is a joke.....

Yeah he goes overboard with that but their is some truth to it, best part is when he said Miller could average 28-37ppg on 50-40-90 :oldlol:

But thats basically one guy saying that and he was not probably being serious with some of it. For every post he does trying to explain Millers skills with hyperbole their is a ton more posters who think Reggie plays like Del Curry who could never put the ball on the floor, could only catch and shoot and was one of the worst defenders ever so I think he evens it all out with his stuff.

[houston]

reggie overrated as hell

[Kblaze8855]

Reggie wasn't winning anything in the playoffs. At best he's a winner by the standards of people who didn't win. And not terribly high on that list either. The "But he's a winner..." talk really needs to stop for people who didn't actually win....anything. You can't lose 18 years in a row and be better than anyone because you're a winner. Reggie won one big series in his life and it took 13 years.

People have actually been winners and not been especially outstanding. I'm sure as hell not giving the "Well he won" all covering paintbrush to someone who almost won one year in two decades.

Not everyone who led a team to actual winning is even better than Reggie. The same applies to him and dozens of others who "won" less than he did.

It just isn't a rational means of determining these things.

[L.Kizzle]

Reggie Miller is one of the most underrated players ever.

Who has did what he did with the players around him? Not many. Rik Smits, Davis boys. He got snubbed from so many All-Stars games it's not even funny.

People always bring up all he could do was shoot? He couldn't play defense, he had so little accolades, ect.

In his era, people would put the likes of Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Mitch Richmond, Shawn Kemp, ect all above him. He outlasted all of them. Miller was still an All-Star in 2000 taking his team to the Finals. Kemp was fat in Orlando, Price had been gone for years, Richmond was rotting in Washington and KJ was attempting a comeback.

One of the top 5 most clucth players of all time along side Sam Jones, Jerry West, Larry Bird and Michael Jordan.

[Reggie43]

Reggie wasn't winning anything in the playoffs. At best he's a winner by the standards of people who didn't win. And not terribly high on that list either. The "But he's a winner..." talk really needs to stop for people who didn't actually win....anything. You can't lose 18 years in a row and be better than anyone because you're a winner. Reggie won one big series in his life and it took 13 years.

People have actually been winners and not been especially outstanding. I'm sure as hell not giving the "Well he won" all covering paintbrush to someone who almost won one year in two decades.

Not everyone who led a team to actual winning is even better than Reggie. The same applies to him and dozens of others who "won" less than he did.

It just isn't a rational means of determining these things.

It does matter when you compare him to his peers/same people in his tier. You look at someone like Mitch Richmond who rarely made the playoffs then you see Miller helping lead an injury/suspension ravaged pacers team to playoff series wins even at 39 years of age. You have to find that pretty impressive for someone supposedly not as good.

Him not winning it all all boils down to who he played with, they were pretty good but not all time great good. A quick look at the top shooting guards and the guys they played with you see Shaq, Olajuwon, Pippen, Garnett, Duncan heck he never even played with someone as good as Pau Gasol

[L.Kizzle]

Let's take a look at the top 20 scores of All-Time.

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 38387
2. Karl Malone* 36928
3. Kobe Bryant 32482
4. Michael Jordan* 32292
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 31419
6. Shaquille O'Neal 28596
7. Dirk Nowitzki 28025
8. Moses Malone* 27409
9. Elvin Hayes* 27313
10. Hakeem Olajuwon* 26946
11. Oscar Robertson* 26710
12. Dominique Wilkins* 26668
13. John Havlicek* 26395
14. Kevin Garnett 25949
15. Paul Pierce 25872
16. Tim Duncan 25867
17. Alex English* 25613
18. Reggie Miller* 25279
19. Jerry West* 25192
20. LeBron James 24837
--------------------------------------

Only Dominique Wilkins and Alex English are comparable to him. Wilkins farthest was the 2nd round and English made the conference Finals once. Miller makes the Finals in 2000 and five other times an Eastern Conference visit.

English played with a few Hall of Famers slightly past their primes but still contributors like Dan Issel and David Thompson. Played with other All-Stars like Kiki Vandeghe and Fat Lever.

Nique's teams probably more comparable to Millers though he had a HoFer of his own past his prime for a few years in big Moses Malone. Played with Doc Rivers and Kevin Willis at their best.

In Millers prime/peak, his best teammates were Chuck Person, Detlef Schrempf, Mark Jackson, Rik Smits, Dale Davis and Antonio Davis.

[Kblaze8855]

One of the top 5 most clucth players of all time along side Sam Jones, Jerry West, Larry Bird and Michael Jordan.

Yea...Reggie is more clutch than Bill Russell....guy who won every game 7 of his life along with all but one elimination game from 16-35 he was healthy to compete for....

As usual people claim Reggie is underrated then procede to overrate him in the process of explaining it.

The idea that Reggie is underrated falls apart pretty easily once you consider the fact that there is probably nobody worse at basketball....more famous for playing it.

Think about it. Really....

Who...among all retired players all time...is as well known and highly regarded by modern fans while being worse than Reggie?

If you asked the know nothing general public Reggie vs David Thompson....Reggie destroys him. Reggie vs Paul Arizin. People dont even KNOW 90% of the players better and more accomplished than Reggie.

Nobody even knows who Nate thurmond is.

Reggies fame and respect exceeds his basketball ability by arguably more than anyone in American sports history.

16 year olds know Reggie Miller. They dont know Kevin Mchale.

Reggie is more famous and respeced than his ability justifies. Hard to call him underrated.

John Havlicek won 8 rings....2 without Russell....and was an elite defender, 29ppg player, one of the leagues leaders in assists, led 68 win teams with no Russell, hit bigger shots than Reggie ever did, had 54 point playoffs games(Including what is still the FG made record), and was the most respected man in sports for years. Nobody gives a shit.

These people are underrated. Reggie gets more notoriety for losing dramatic second rounds than some guys get for dragging teams full of nobodies to NBA titles.

The ship sailed on Reggie being underrated when he started getting documentaries for losing just because a movie director was on the sideline.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Reggie is one of the best ever at putting that thing through the net and he's one of the GOAT clutch scorers...With that said, and again, I feel he gets overrated/overhyped nowadays, plenty.

As far as peaks and only counting SG's, I'd take your usual suspects over Reggie - Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade, Drexler, Gervin, Iverson... then probably also Moncrief, Earl the Pearl, Dumars, Ray-Ray, DJ (more of a SG at his best), also got Pistol Pete, Manu, even Sam Jones, shit how about Gail Goodrich or Skywalker Thompson?... Not even comparing Miller to all of those guys, but js that most likely I wouldn't even have him on my top10 peaks for SG's, ofc not denying that he's one of the best 2guards ever, and had longevity like few others.

James Harden?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I'm really not sure about that. I certainly wouldn't say it was unimpressive if MJ had a run where he scored 24 ppg on 61% TS.

It would be the rest of his game that would make or break how well he was playing.

LeBron James just put up 28 ppg in the NBA finals on 68% TS....nobody cared

[L.Kizzle]

Yea...Reggie is more clutch than Bill Russell....guy who won every game 7 of his life along with all but one elimination game from 16-35 he was healthy to compete for....

As usual people claim Reggie is underrated then procede to overrate him in the process of explaining it.

The idea that Reggie is underrated falls apart pretty easily once you consider the fact that there is probably nobody worse at basketball....more famous for playing it.

Think about it. Really....

Who...among all retired players all time...is as well known and highly regarded by modern fans while being worse than Reggie?

If you asked the know nothing general public Reggie vs David Thompson....Reggie destroys him. Reggie vs Paul Arizin. People dont even KNOW 90% of the players better and more accomplished than Reggie.

Nobody even knows who Nate thurmond is.

Reggies fame and respect exceeds his basketball ability by arguably more than anyone in American sports history.

16 year olds know Reggie Miller. They dont know Kevin Mchale.

Reggie is more famous and respeced than his ability justifies. Hard to call him underrated.

John Havlicek won 8 rings....2 without Russell....and was an elite defender, 29ppg player, one of the leagues leaders in assists, led 68 win teams with no Russell, hit bigger shots than Reggie ever did, had 54 point playoffs games(Including what is still the FG made record), and was the most respected man in sports for years. Nobody gives a shit.

These people are underrated. Reggie gets more notoriety for losing dramatic second rounds than some guys get for dragging teams full of nobodies to NBA titles.

The ship sailed on Reggie being underrated when he started getting documentaries for losing just because a movie director was on the sideline.
Russell clutch on the defensive end, sure. We all know (or have read) that the ball was going to Sam Jones for a bucket.

Maybe not underrated, but definitely disrespected like he's being here.

If he's the worse, he's the worse of the best. How many greats went as far as he did with the talent he had (his own personal talent and his teammates?) He's the 18th greatest scorer of All-Time. He's over greats like Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Hal Greer and Bob Pettit. And above guys from his era he played against like Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Larry Bird, David Robinson and Mitch Richmond.

Miller more known than Paul Arizin, David Thompson, Kevin McHale, Nate Thurmand. How is that surprising? Miller retired in 2005. LeBron, Carmelo, Bosh and Wade were in their second seasons. Miller has been in our homes and on our TVs for over 30 years since his UCLA days in the mid 80s. He's been on Turner since his retirement, he hasn't left us. Even in his playing fay, he probably had the most guest appearances on television than anyone else in the 90s. I remember seeing him on shows like The Parent Hood, Jamie Foxx Show, Kenan & Kel I believe. For someone who was left of a lot of All-Star games, he sure was a popular guy.

And why the comparison to Havlicek, no one has ever had Miller over Hondo. Is Miller more known now, sure he is. Havlicek retired in 1978, the year Grease hit theaters. Bird and Magic hadn't even saved the NBA yet.

And who are these guys that dragged their teams to titles that Reggie gets more love over, not Hakeem right? Rick Barry? Barry did that in 1975. That was a long time ago. All In The Family was the top rated show on TV.

Reggie Miller is becoming the most disrespected great of All-Time. The only player to get hated on for bringing his team to the Finals and appearing in five other Eastern Conference Finals over his career.

[magnax1]

Think for a moment about the number of players who could score at that rate...and have it not be noteworthy. Then tell me again its impressive by any measure.

Its impressive by some measures.

But there is a long list of people nobody cares about when they have 24 points and shoot well.

And that is a list of truly great scorers.

Im gonna ignore the MVP Dirk thing for now. Thats just not going anywhere we need it to.
In NBA history there are 66 seasons and 29 players who scored 23.5 ppg or more on at least 60 TS%. Reggie did it in the playoffs over 11 years. It's definitely impressive by any standard.

[Kblaze8855]

Much of that seemed to be on the issue of when things happened so ill cover that first.

You do know what it means when you say "most underrated players ever" and the many things you listed with "of all time" right?

It means you dont then get to dismiss people from consideration for being from the past. What do you think "ever" mean exactly?

Reggie is far far more respected and well known than FAR better and more accomplished greats from every period. So...how does that equal underrated all time?

Guys led team to titles and nobody but the hardest core fans even know they exist. But Reggie is underrared for losing 18 years in a row while being a fourth tier basketball player with a first tier name.

People on here raving about what he "led" his teams to when he had no success before he was asked...to stop trying to lead them the way great players usually do...because he wasnt capable of it.

People talking "Oh but...per 100 posessions in the playoffs he...." as if Reggie was some special scorer per minute who just didnt get the burn to put up great numbers. Reggie wasnt even the Pacers leading scorer per minute for years!

Rik Smits was outscoring Reggie per 36 in their best years. And in the playoffs too if youre wondering. The 3 best seasons winning wise of Reggies career...Rik Smits led them in scoring per minute....but played less minutes than Reggie. Rik Smits was OFTEN the Pacers first option.

And despite the lies in this topic(at this point its not watching the games or its just telling lies) Reggie did not take every big shot. Just making this video I watched plenty of other Pacers take and make the big shot. I watched them run a play to isolate Mckey....who dribbled the clock out before he hit Mark Jackson for the big 3 to put the game away. Mark hits the shimmy....Reggies in the corner watching the entire play.

They get owned for years as reggie cant get looks. Him losing game 7 while not giving them ANYTHING was the whole reason Larry Brown said the now often posted quote here:


It's a good thing Anderson and the Magic suffocated Miller as it did, held him to a startling 12 points, to not a single free-throw attempt. Otherwise there would have been another round of smirks and scorn, of suspicion that it's no coincidence the N.B.A. always seems to get what it wants.

Naturally, there was hardly a soul in Indianapolis this weekend who wasn't dreading some decisive call going against the Pacers last night because people were salivating at the thought of the Shaquille-Hakeem showdown. The Pacers are a classic small-market team, with a minuscule ratings base and, in Miller, only one marketable star. And one who sparkles or fades to amazing extremes.

"I know people are going to say Reggie didn't do this or that, but I've always said it's a team thing for him," said Brown. "He has trouble getting his own shot, beating people off the dribble. He's not what people make him out to be."


He said it not to hate on Reggie...but in DEFENSE of him because people were wondering where he went.

They got owned for years because Reggie couldnt break scoring droughts. The Knicks shut him out in sooooooo many 4th quarters and you dudes act like im making it up or something and Reggie was going out fighting to the last and being let down by teammates.

Even when they finally beat the Knicks(THe "Knick Killer" lost to the knicks in the playoffs 3 times of course) Reggie scored....zero...in the 4th. Rik Smits brought the game home...hit their last shot of the night....after which both Brown and Reggie said...Smits was the teams MVP. Reggie had a good night. But the way people act you would think he powered them home down the stretch for every key win.

People looking back like it was Reggie and a band of bitches lucky to be on his team...

The FIRST thing Larry Brown said to Reggie Miller was


"Reggie...I know you arent gonna want to hear this" before he explained that Reggie wasnt and never would be an individually dominant player and had to take a step back to win.

Over the following years I hear Reggie, Smits, Mckey, and Mark Jackson ALL called the teams best/key player.

Phil and Larry Brown had Mckey:



Bulls coach Phil Jackson voted for McKey for the All-Star team, saying: "He's their best player. He's the reason they are where they are."


Mostly because the Pacers won with defense...



And Indiana's defense starts with Derrick McKey.

"He's as good a defender as there is in the league," coach Larry Brown said. "He's a great all-around player. I don't know where we'd be without him."

"He's the best. He defends every night. He does whatever we need him to do to win," Brown said.

While Brown and teammates call McKey the most important player on the team, McKey was characteristically modest about his play following the win over Charlotte.



Ive heard Pacers...their coach...opposing players and coaches....rank all these dudes over Reggie. It was a straight up ensemble team like the Pistons of the 2000s. Reggie was their "Mr.Bigshot" but he sure as hell didnt stand above everyone else the way people pretend 20 years later.

And nobody thought he did at the time.

The Pacers players...and coaches...were at times on record saying he wasnt even the teams leader:


"Reggie (Miller) is not a leader, not at all," Brown says.

That team was a gang of good not great players...all of which were needed. It wasnt Reggie and some no names....

It was Reggie, Mckey, Smits, Jackson, Davis and so on...and any of them could win any game on any night.

If that team had a player they could depend on to make baskets in a pinch they would have been far better.

Reggie sat and watched them lose due largely to NOT being able to get good shots...the whole era.

But he comes out of it as a supposedly unstoppable playoff scorer who always came though. I watched this dude have 12 points and no show down the stretch of too many big games to let that lie keep getting told.

The Pacers main problem was a LACK of reliable scoring in close games. They played in an era of low scoring games that came down to 2-3 baskets. Reggie NOT getting them is how they lost every year.

He hit a lot of game winners due to an inordinate number of close games....but he wasnt taking over and bringing it home.

Reggie Miller was never reliable to just go generate a basket.

Not at an all time level.

Which is probably why everyone at the time was saying just that.....even though everyone 20 years later thinks they know better now than the people watching then.

Plaers...coaches...teammates...media...fans.

Reggie NOT being able to go score on command....was a theme of the 90s.
But in 2015...Reggie is reliable. Bigtime playoff scorer. Look at the TS%!

**** his TS%. You watched the 90s...you know Reggie went ghost ALL THE TIME. It was a reccurring theme for that team to not be able to get a basket it needed.

NBA history has never been as revised as it is daily...on the subject of Reggie Miller.

"Once again...Pacers cant score in the 4th" was the theme of 300 articles from 92-2000.

I can show you the players, coaches, and media saying just that....

Tight game scoring was Reggies teams primary issue for years.

But reality be damned.

Reggie needs another ESPN special...

[mehyaM24]

the combination of scoring & efficiency for a guy who played until he was 39 is amazing, but basketball isn't played on a stat sheet. if you watched basketball in the 90's you would know that reggie killed it - nobody in the league ever wanted to see him in the playoffs because he made for spectacular basketball and always kept his team in games.

check the rapm numbers (fake rapm, but the best impact stat for the 90s) - with him in the lineup, beside jordan & drexler for a couple of seasons, no other sg impacted the game like reggie did. i assume that was because of his elite off ball play, but his 50/40/90 seasons (some close to that) were probably the biggest reason.

that is staggering efficiency....

and again, this is coming from someone who isn't particularly enamored with one-dimensional scorers. greatness is how many knicks and bulls fans, who should by all means HATE him, are coming out and showing how salty they are itt. :oldlol:

[Dasher]

Vince Carter was a better player than Reggie Miller. There is a good chance Vince Carter never sees the hall of fame. That's how overrated Reggie Miller is.

[raiderfan19]

I would say that having the 18th most points and being the 18th greatest scorer aren't the same thing.

[L.Kizzle]

Why do you hate Reggie so much KBlaze? What more else did you want him to do. Dunk more like Nique, crossover like Timmy Hardaway. Decent post like Drexler a go to move like Steve Smith? Finals and deep playoffs aren't good enough.

[L.Kizzle]

Vince Carter was a better player than Reggie Miller. There is a good chance Vince Carter never sees the hall of fame. That's how overrated Reggie Miller is.
And what did Vince do with all of that talent he had?

[Dasher]

And what did Vince do with all of that talent he had?
Be better at basketball than Reggie Miller. He's won as many titles as Reggie Miller. Unlike Reggie, he's been on an All NBA 2nd Team. He has multiple scoring seasons better than Reggie's best etc.

[L.Kizzle]

Be better at basketball than Reggie Miller. He's won as many titles as Reggie Miller. Unlike Reggie, he's been on an All NBA 2nd Team. He has multiple scoring seasons better than Reggie's best etc.
Miller went much father in a tougher era. And was less talented.

[Jameerthefear]

Miller went much father in a tougher era. And was less talented.
ayy lmao

[Dasher]

Miller went much father in a tougher era. And was less talented.

Both Miller and Vince played in the expansion era. They didn't win anything. Reggie played on better teams, much better teams, and didn't win anything.

[L.Kizzle]

Both Miller and Vince played in the expansion era. They didn't win anything. Reggie played on better teams, much better teams, and didn't win anything.
Vince was the better talent. It all equals out.

[Kblaze8855]

Why do you hate Reggie so much KBlaze? What more else did you want him to do. Dunk more like Nique, crossover like Timmy Hardaway. Decent post like Drexler a go to move like Steve Smith? Finals and deep playoffs aren't good enough.

Dont hate reggie. Rooted for him towards the end of his career. And what id want more of to consider him better?

Basketball skills. All around basketball skills. "Finals and deep playoffs" dont prove anything about anyone. If it did...it would be people who actually won.

I want basketball arguments. I dont give shit about TS% in a 3 game playoff "run" while people disregard 9 months of basketball. I dont want bullshit about one person being credited for winning games his team didnt win until he was asked NOT to try to lead them himself. I dont want to be told how good someone was 20 years ago in total opposition to the verifiable opinions of people in the know from the time. I dont want to be told about how reliable a scorer someone is over shooting numbers when there are examples out the ass of that guys team struggling to score when needed as the entire basketball world discusses that its a common theme.....

When every supporting argument begins with "___ might have been better at basketball but___" im just generally not gonna agree with what follows.

[mehyaM24]

Dont hate reggie. Rooted for him towards the end of his career. And what id want more of to consider him better?

Basketball skills. All around basketball skills. "Finals and deep playoffs" dont prove anything about anyone. If it did...it would be people who actually won.

I want basketball arguments. I dont give shit about TS% in a 3 game playoff "run" while people disregard 9 months of basketball.

reggie was that efficient for basically a decade....in the regular season. that's a huge sample size.

just because you don't like what he brings to the table, doesn't take away from the results. the facts are, aside from jordan and certain years from glide (1992), there was no other sg who impacted his teams play than reggie miller.

the on/off splits don't lie.

[Kblaze8855]

Every number I've ever seen lies when people attempt to make too great a point out of it.

People were hardly blown away then. No need to be now.

[mehyaM24]

Every number I've ever seen lies when people attempt to make too great a point out of it.

People were hardly blown away then. No need to be now.
how his teams do with and without him on the court isn't a "lie".

they're facts. deal with them.

[Reggie43]

Much of that seemed to be on the issue of when things happened so ill cover that first.

You do know what it means when you say "most underrated players ever" and the many things you listed with "of all time" right?

It means you dont then get to dismiss people from consideration for being from the past. What do you think "ever" mean exactly?

Reggie is far far more respected and well known than FAR better and more accomplished greats from every period. So...how does that equal underrated all time?

Guys led team to titles and nobody but the hardest core fans even know they exist. But Reggie is underrared for losing 18 years in a row while being a fourth tier basketball player with a first tier name.

People on here raving about what he "led" his teams to when he had no success before he was asked...to stop trying to lead them the way great players usually do...because he wasnt capable of it.

People talking "Oh but...per 100 posessions in the playoffs he...." as if Reggie was some special scorer per minute who just didnt get the burn to put up great numbers. Reggie wasnt even the Pacers leading scorer per minute for years!

Rik Smits was outscoring Reggie per 36 in their best years. And in the playoffs too if youre wondering. The 3 best seasons winning wise of Reggies career...Rik Smits led them in scoring per minute....but played less minutes than Reggie. Rik Smits was OFTEN the Pacers first option.

And despite the lies in this topic(at this point its not watching the games or its just telling lies) Reggie did not take every big shot. Just making this video I watched plenty of other Pacers take and make the big shot. I watched them run a play to isolate Mckey....who dribbled the clock out before he hit Mark Jackson for the big 3 to put the game away. Mark hits the shimmy....Reggies in the corner watching the entire play.

They get owned for years as reggie cant get looks. Him losing game 7 while not giving them ANYTHING was the whole reason Larry Brown said the now often posted quote here:




He said it not to hate on Reggie...but in DEFENSE of him because people were wondering where he went.

They got owned for years because Reggie couldnt break scoring droughts. The Knicks shut him out in sooooooo many 4th quarters and you dudes act like im making it up or something and Reggie was going out fighting to the last and being let down by teammates.

Even when they finally beat the Knicks(THe "Knick Killer" lost to the knicks in the playoffs 3 times of course) Reggie scored....zero...in the 4th. Rik Smits brought the game home...hit their last shot of the night....after which both Brown and Reggie said...Smits was the teams MVP. Reggie had a good night. But the way people act you would think he powered them home down the stretch for every key win.

People looking back like it was Reggie and a band of bitches lucky to be on his team...

The FIRST thing Larry Brown said to Reggie Miller was


"Reggie...I know you arent gonna want to hear this" before he explained that Reggie wasnt and never would be an individually dominant player and had to take a step back to win.

Over the following years I hear Reggie, Smits, Mckey, and Mark Jackson ALL called the teams best/key player.

Phil and Larry Brown had Mckey:




Mostly because the Pacers won with defense...






Ive heard Pacers...their coach...opposing players and coaches....rank all these dudes over Reggie. It was a straight up ensemble team like the Pistons of the 2000s. Reggie was their "Mr.Bigshot" but he sure as hell didnt stand above everyone else the way people pretend 20 years later.

And nobody thought he did at the time.

The Pacers players...and coaches...were at times on record saying he wasnt even the teams leader:



That team was a gang of good not great players...all of which were needed. It wasnt Reggie and some no names....

It was Reggie, Mckey, Smits, Jackson, Davis and so on...and any of them could win any game on any night.

If that team had a player they could depend on to make baskets in a pinch they would have been far better.

Reggie sat and watched them lose due largely to NOT being able to get good shots...the whole era.

But he comes out of it as a supposedly unstoppable playoff scorer who always came though. I watched this dude have 12 points and no show down the stretch of too many big games to let that lie keep getting told.

The Pacers main problem was a LACK of reliable scoring in close games. They played in an era of low scoring games that came down to 2-3 baskets. Reggie NOT getting them is how they lost every year.

He hit a lot of game winners due to an inordinate number of close games....but he wasnt taking over and bringing it home.

Reggie Miller was never reliable to just go generate a basket.

Not at an all time level.

Which is probably why everyone at the time was saying just that.....even though everyone 20 years later thinks they know better now than the people watching then.

Plaers...coaches...teammates...media...fans.

Reggie NOT being able to go score on command....was a theme of the 90s.
But in 2015...Reggie is reliable. Bigtime playoff scorer. Look at the TS%!

**** his TS%. You watched the 90s...you know Reggie went ghost ALL THE TIME. It was a reccurring theme for that team to not be able to get a basket it needed.

NBA history has never been as revised as it is daily...on the subject of Reggie Miller.

"Once again...Pacers cant score in the 4th" was the theme of 300 articles from 92-2000.

I can show you the players, coaches, and media saying just that....

Tight game scoring was Reggies teams primary issue for years.

But reality be damned.

Reggie needs another ESPN special...

Whats the excuse when Rik Smits and Mckey were on their last legs and they go on their deepest playoff run? Do you deflect the credit to someone else to suit your agenda? Or when George Karl raves about his leadership ability being with him for the first time in international competition or Bird saying he was his equal in shooting or Isiah proclaiming him the best defender on the team at 35 years old?

And all this is from what I remember a decade ago. If I searched the net I knows there are tons of coaches/former players that would dispute the quotes you said and took out of context to begin with. Heck they are probably quotes from Larry Brown and Phil Jackson themselves that would dispute what they said.

Judging a player on a bad game and telling us he couldnt get a shot off? Even the all time greats had similarly bad games but you have to judge them for atleast the whole series.

[LiLharvard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXFF-TXxoSw&feature=youtu.be


Been a while...mostly because I only really make videos these days if I have a related point to make...this one is...

Reggie Millers prime was well before it seems some think. I know you can google numbers and see that he was more productive early in his career but somehow still...over the years ive seen many many people claiming his prime was from like 30-35. Im serious. I was just reading a topic with a guy telling me he did ____ every year of his prime and I point out that he was at his best way before he started winning and people acted like his prime started at 29 or 30.

Reggie was a more complete scorer early in his career. Or more likely...used more of what he had. He was using floaters, lefty hooks, his post game, and would even break out a little "Dirk":

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-31-2015/s-NJ-6.gif


Here and there.

Though that example is from like 1996.

Ive always known what Reggie could do...likely better than most of those acting like I underrated him. My belief he wasnt a complete scorer is relative...to the people hes compared to. To my horror I once read that he would have the 3rd best scoring skillset today after Kobe and Durant. Shit like that bugs me....but I knew he had more than a jump shot. He had game....just not as much as some want to pretend in retrospect.

And of course Larry Brown came along and decided Reggie wasnt a traditional first option and he needed to take a step back to win....it worked....and people in retrospect pretend it didnt happen....and...you know what? I'll limit the backhanded compliments for now and just leave Reggie be until someone comes in with an absurd claim about him being better than _____.


Instead let me say....

Reggie might have had a 10+ year prime. He was essentially the same guy from like 1989 to 2001 ability wise....but people kinda cut the early portion of his career off because it doesnt mesh with some ideas pushed by his supporters.

Lets put that aside for now...

Would you say a players prime is usually the start of him being very productive or do you tie it more into accomplishments? There are those who say 10 Kobe and 09 Lebron were not in their primes.....

Ive seen "WHen Durant hits his prime" for years when hes been an all time great for like 4 years.

Would you say Westbrook just hit his prime because of the huge jump in production even if its because Durant went down?

Would you say Kobe had a prime that went from maybe 2001 to 2013?

Guys like Kareem, Wilt, MJ, Oscar, and so on looked as good as anyone ever was in their second and third seasons....

Dont have the time I need to delve into it the way I intended so ill check back later....gonna go drink cheap wine while getting a haircut...


:applause: great video man, really appreciated it. Never knew Reggie had that type of game he was quite deft with his drives and inside game.

[Kblaze8855]

Whats the excuse when Rik Smits and Mckey were on their last legs and they go on their deepest playoff run? Do you deflect the credit to someone else to suit your agenda? Or when George Karl raves about his leadership ability being with him for the first time in international competition or Bird saying he was his equal in shooting or Isiah proclaiming him the best defender on the team at 35 years old?

And all this is from what I remember a decade ago. If I searched the net I knows there are tons of coaches/former players that would dispute the quotes you said and took out of context to begin with. Heck they are probably quotes from Larry Brown and Phil Jackson themselves that would dispute what they said.

Judging a player on a bad game and telling us he couldnt get a shot off? Even the all time greats had similarly bad games but you have to judge them for atleast the whole series.


As I said the Pacers were an ensemble team. Not always the same group but at no time was Reggie miles beyond the others. Not once they started winning.

And nothing was out of context.....the entire articles have been posted. And I have no doubt those guys wouldn't say the same things now. Which would do nothing but add to the tendency people have to rank Reggie higher the more distant they are from the moment.

Nobody remembers anyone as well two decades later as they do two weeks later. You don't get truth in specials and so on years later.

People are far more honest about current events than about legends from their past with a camera on expecting praise for a tv special. People show respect in retrospect.

You know nobody dead was an asshole. That's the rule. Respect......at a distance. Quotes about an active player are always more likely to be true feelings than taking about them looking back.

Hell even Id find something nice to say if a reporter asked me about Reggie Miller on some special occasion when they're trying to honor him. Why be a dick?

You get real talk at the time and bullshit in retrospect and that goes for damn near everybody.

[L.Kizzle]

As I said the Pacers were an ensemble team. Not always the same group but at no time was Reggie miles beyond the others. Not once they started winning.

And nothing was out of context.....the entire articles have been posted. And I have no doubt those guys wouldn't say the same things now. Which would do nothing but add to the tendency people have to rank Reggie higher the more distant they are from the moment.

Nobody remembers anyone as well two decades later as they do two weeks later. You don't get truth in specials and so on years later.

People are far more honest about current events than about legends from their past with a camera on expecting praise for a tv special. People show respect in retrospect.

You know nobody dead was an asshole. That's the rule. Respect......at a distance. Quotes about an active player are always more likely to be true feelings than taking about them looking back.

Hell even Id find something nice to say if a reporter asked me about Reggie Miller on some special occasion when they're trying to honor him. Why be a dick?

You get real talk at the time and bullshit in retrospect and that goes for damn near everybody.
No difference than when Glove and I think KMatt or something like that used to post countless articles about Kevin Johnson being greater than Tiny Archibald and bettee than peak John Stockton and so forth. What someone says about a player one season shouldn't follow him throughout his career. You think McKey was better than Miller in 93. One season. What about by 98. Or 2000. Was Derrick even in the league aat that time?

[Kblaze8855]

I didn't say he was better to begin with. I posted evidence that many people had different Pacers as the best....because it's clearly at odds with the sentiments posted by people who denigrate his teammates and act like there was some huge gulf.

Personally I was partial to Smits at times and Reggie at others.

If you asked me in 1995 I'm sure I'd have said Reggie. That doesn't mean the coach of his team would. And though I'm prone to pretend to believe I know everything I won't pretend to know the Pacers better than Larry Brown did while he was coaching them or other NBA coaches who also routinely suggested Reggie was not that teams best player.

I posted two articles a while back showing media in Indiana being unequivocal in the belief that Detlef was the Pacers best player in 1993.

Reggie was just in fact not the unquestioned best player on those teams. And considering the utter bullshit going on with people pretending otherwise I think it's fair to point it out when it can be proven.

Most of the time if you ask me I would say he was. But it was far from a given that knowledgeable followers of the game would at the time.

That's just indisputable at this point.

[L.Kizzle]

I didn't say he was better to begin with. I posted evidence that many people had different Pacers as the best....because it's clearly at odds with the sentiments posted by people who denigrate his teammates and act like there was some huge gulf.

Personally I was partial to Smits at times and Reggie at others.

If you asked me in 1995 I'm sure I'd have said Reggie. That doesn't mean the coach of his team would. And though I'm prone to pretend to believe I know everything I won't pretend to know the Pacers better than Larry Brown did while he was coaching them or other NBA coaches who also routinely suggested Reggie was not that teams best player.

I posted two articles a while back showing media in Indiana being unequivocal in the belief that Detlef was the Pacers best player in 1993.

Reggie was just in fact not the unquestioned best player on those teams. And considering the utter bullshit going on with people pretending otherwise I think it's fair to point it out when it can be proven.

Most of the time if you ask me I would say he was. But it was far from a given that knowledgeable followers of the game would at the time.

That's just indisputable at this point.
Detlef was an All star in 93 and Reggie wasn't so I can see why that was said. But when the playoffs hit Reg was a different animal upping his ppg by about 10 points. Meanwhile Detlef was about the same. He was traded in the offseason.

[Kblaze8855]

Anyway we could all just agree to disagree.

My overall point is that when multiple Hall of Fame coaches have a role player as better than Reggie multiple local media have Detlef as a better player and too many to list had the likes with Jalen and Smits ahead of him at one time or another.....

How the hell do I get cries of blasphemy for saying Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars, or Lou Hudson are better?

Does that really strike nobody else as odd? Just tell me it doesn't and I'll leave it alone.

Dude with 50 years of experience in the game can rank a role player over Reggie Miller but I say a Finals MVP first team All NBA guy is better and I'm just a scumbag?

[L.Kizzle]

Anyway we could all just agree to disagree.

My overall point is that when multiple Hall of Fame coaches have a role player as better than Reggie multiple local media have Detlef as a better player and too many to list had the likes with Jalen and Smits ahead of him at one time or another.....

How the hell do I get cries of blasphemy for saying Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars, or Lou Hudson are better?

Does that really strike nobody else as odd? Just tell me it doesn't and I'll leave it alone.

Dude with 50 years of experience in the game can rank a role player over Reggie Miller but I say a Finals MVP first team All NBA guy is better and I'm just a scumbag?
Lou, DJ and JD over Reggie, sure why not. When Derrick McKey is getting love over him, naw. Detlef had a better season, okay. So has Gilbert Arenas or World B Free.

Hell, I heard im recent years Shane Battier or McGrady when they were Rockets. Larry Hughes over Arenas is Washington.

[Reggie43]

Anyway we could all just agree to disagree.

My overall point is that when multiple Hall of Fame coaches have a role player as better than Reggie multiple local media have Detlef as a better player and too many to list had the likes with Jalen and Smits ahead of him at one time or another.....

How the hell do I get cries of blasphemy for saying Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars, or Lou Hudson are better?

Does that really strike nobody else as odd? Just tell me it doesn't and I'll leave it alone.

Dude with 50 years of experience in the game can rank a role player over Reggie Miller but I say a Finals MVP first team All NBA guy is better and I'm just a scumbag?

The problem is other leaders/best players on their team went through quotes like this Shawn Marion being the best player on the Suns, Pippen being the true leader of the Bulls, Ginobili/Parker being better than Old Duncan, Redd being better than Ray etc.. Should I believe every article/quotes written and said about these topics?

Mckey being better was probably a heat of the moment thing, a coach trying to give praise to his most versatile player. Detlef was more skilled but we all knew who ultimately was better. Rik was better at times and Jalen was never better when it counts which was in the playoffs.

And again a few random posts where people exaggerating Miller's traits ticks you off when there is a ton more saying that Miller was Kyle Korver/Del Curry level.

[Kblaze8855]

You are talking fringe opinions and jokes. Reggie under these guys was a perfectly common non controversial opinion held by people with credibility.

Far too many to keep reading claims of how he took all these guys to such and such. He was foremost of a group of guys who played well together.

He didn't lead that team the way greats traditionally do and the idea that he did is a modern revision.

I think this has gone on long enough. And slightly less vicious than most extended arguments here....I'm willing to drop it.

There is a new Batman animated movie out. Gonna look into that while this Kentucky game plays out......

[eliteballer]

Reggie wasn't a great all-around player, but given the right team around him and his impact was greater than his skillset.

Look at his best Indiana teams. The ones from like 94-2000. Contending squads that might well have won titles if they didn't run into Jordan's Bulls and Shaq's Lakers.

You can't build teams like that around guys like Gilbert Arenas.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Phil literally called Kobe uncoachable at one point, then returned to LA and have Kobe help him win 2 more championships. Quotes from whomever can be extremely misleading and spur of the moment ish.

Good posts about Reggie's impact to those posters who brought it up. Get tired of seeing clowns give their opinions without anything quantitative to defend them.

[Reggie43]

You are talking fringe opinions and jokes. Reggie under these guys was a perfectly common non controversial opinion held by people with credibility.

Far too many to keep reading claims of how he took all these guys to such and such. He was foremost of a group of guys who played well together.

He didn't lead that team the way greats traditionally do and the idea that he did is a modern revision.

I think this has gone on long enough. And slightly less vicious than most extended arguments here....I'm willing to drop it.

There is a new Batman animated movie out. Gonna look into that while this Kentucky game plays out......

Non conventional opinions about Reggie you take as gospel yet when I cite examples about other players you take it as fringe opinions and jokes?

You despise people who overrate him but your bias against him is just as strong so I guess it evens it out :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

Add I said the opinion that Reggie wasn't best wasn't even that....ok...know what? Im gonna just let you re-read what I said and not explain it again. Perhaps it will take with a second coat.

Maybe I'll make a Pacers Detlef video tomorrow and really stir people up.

[Reggie43]

Add I said the opinion that Reggie wasn't best wasn't even that....ok...know what? Im gonna just let you re-read what I said and not explain it again. Perhaps it will take with a second coat.

Maybe I'll make a Pacers Detlef video tomorrow and really stir people up.

Detlef video really? Would prefer a Mckey one seriously. I guess thats more motivation for people to rile you up :D j/k

Don't act like you dont beat around the bush in explaining your opinions then pretend you got it through clearly. I guess we really have to agree to disagree again, dont really like it when in trying to establish that Reggie is the best player on the Pacers it would seem that I diminish his other teammates so I wont prolong this further.

[houston]

Jordan,Drexler,Richmond,Dumars hell you can make a close arugment Sprewell was better than Reggie. Reggie so clutch I remember him bricking free throws in a game he could went to the Finals.

If Reggie so great might as well call Rip Hamiltion great too. Ray Allen is better than Reggie and he was just very good.

[L.Kizzle]

Jordan,Drexler,Richmond,Dumars hell you can make a close arugment Sprewell was better than Reggie. Reggie so clutch I remember him bricking free throws in a game he could went to the Finals.

If Reggie so great might as well call Rip Hamiltion great too. Ray Allen is better than Reggie and he was just very good.
Richmond, the guy with worse playoff success than McGrady. Is that even possible?