jordan vs kobe : who is more unguardable when in the zone? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

swagga

04-02-2015, 04:07 PM

anybody who has seen both players knows that jordan is a superior scorer. Much better offensive positioning and off ball movement. More athletic and aggressive. Superior slasher and mid range game. More efficient.

But this thread isn't about this. It's about scoring comparison when kobe/jordan are in the zone/hot. my opinion:

I consider kobe as more unguardable because of his range and the type of shots he takes. When kobe is in the zone it doesn't matter what you do because he is hitting bullshit shots like step back 4 feet behind the 3pt line with a taller defender wrapped around him shots. Like his 81 game, or the 3 quarters vs dallas. He doesn't score on standard efficient plays like MJ who is all aggression, excellent positioning and precision finishing. Kobe is more of a "fck you it's going in anyway" type of hot on yolo shots. Imo this is the most unguardable because it doesn't matter what you do, except deny the ball from half court. I've heard the term "kobe shot", so I'm sure other people observed this.

When kobe is hot he is a threat to score from anywhere. MJ is too good of a player to take this kind of bad shots, he's more likely to draw a foul or make a great pass, but when it comes to just hitting crazy shit kobe is the goat. I swear to god, out of all the basketball I've seen (25 years of live ball + tape of the 80s and 70s), no other player comes close to the ridiculous stuff kobe does in the zone.

Again, this isn't about efficiency, this is about ridiculous scoring spurts.

ShawkFactory

04-02-2015, 04:09 PM

Both are completely and utterly unguardable when in the zone.

I'd say Jordan though because with Kobe you can at least make him take tough shots. Jordan could get an easier shot whenever he wanted.

Akrazotile

04-02-2015, 04:19 PM

Umm, arent all players equally unstoppable when theyre "in the zone"?

Isnt that what being "in the zone" means? Theyre hitting their shots?

The question is how often and how easily can they get in the zone?

Jordan >>>> Kobe

BigBoss

04-02-2015, 04:22 PM

The one who dropped 81.

30 in a quarter twice.

Averaged 40 in a month twice.

Dropped 50 in a season 10 times.

Dropped 65-50-60-50 in 4 straight games

Dropped 40+ 9 straight times

62 in 3 quarters

NBA record: 12 3 pointers in 1 game.

And 55 on the other :roll:

Lebald stans and Michael "the myth" Jordan stans so mad LMAO

inclinerator

04-02-2015, 04:24 PM

kobe because he'll jack up shots nonstop

Prometheus

04-02-2015, 04:24 PM

Yeah the answer is still Jordan. Kobe may end up with more points when he gets hot, because he'll get carried away and try to push his personal total as high as he can. Jordan used his offense to benefit his team to maximum potential, so you're actually in more danger of losing the game when Jordan is in the zone than when Kobe is.

Hey Yo

04-02-2015, 04:25 PM

Jordan already said his career wouldn't have been the same playing against the zone.

:banana:

BigBoss

04-02-2015, 04:28 PM

kobe because he'll jack up shots nonstop

MJ

Career FGA = 22.9
Seasons with 25+ FGA a game=2 (27.9 and 25.2)

Kobe
Career FGA= 20.9
Seasons with 25+ FGA a game=1 (27.2)

The MYTH of Michael Jordan lives on!

Kblaze8855

04-02-2015, 04:29 PM

You could argue Kobe because Kobe in the zone will take shots the defense will give him...and just make it. Jordan in the zone keeps going to the basket...and taking similar shots. He had games he would heat check 3s...but for the most part hot Jordan and normal Jordan arent that different.

Hot Kobe takes shots you cant do anything about...because its a 28 foot transition three. Its a bad shot. He just makes it anyway.

Jordan played closer to his best on regular basis. Kobes best is on that same level...scoring wise...but its hard for him to get there because he has no regard for shot selection when he sets out to make something happen.

ShawkFactory

04-02-2015, 04:29 PM

Prometheus

04-02-2015, 04:31 PM

MJ

Career FGA = 22.9
Seasons with 25+ FGA a game=2 (27.9 and 25.2)

Kobe
Career FGA= 20.9
Seasons with 25+ FGA a game=1 (27.2)

The MYTH of Michael Jordan lives on!

Jordan played in an era with faster pace. Also, jacking shots refers to the quality of the shot selection as well as the actual volume of FGA. So two players can shoot 25 shots each, and it can be very true that one was shot-jacking and the other was doing his job effectively.

BigBoss

04-02-2015, 04:32 PM

Jordan played in an era with faster pace. Also, jacking shots refers to the quality of the shot selection as well as the actual volume of FGA. So two players can shoot 25 shots each, and it can be very true that one was shot-jacking and the other was doing his job effectively.

Jordan was taking 25+ shots a game with Pippen and co on his team.

Kobe was taking 25+ shots a game with Kwame Brown/Smush Parker and co. on his team.

Whose really chucking here?

Prometheus

04-02-2015, 04:33 PM

Not trying to take anything away from Kobe here. He's the second greatest scorer I've ever seen - and the margin is a lot closer than people (real people, doesn't include Kobetards) like to admit. Kobe was a bad motherf*cker. I think if this question was who is more impressive to watch when on fire, I'd give it to Kobe.

It's just the nature of comparing players to Jordan. They're almost always going to fall short, and it's not really a knock on their greatness.

sdot_thadon

04-02-2015, 04:35 PM

Could definitely see an argument for both, but we know kobe will make the most head scratching shots when he's on no matter how many defenders he sees. But for Mj it just looked much easier and normal doing it. Maybe I'd lean Mj, just looks more effortless with him and when they do make it tough somebody's getting dunked on.

Prometheus

04-02-2015, 04:35 PM

Jordan was taking 25+ shots a game with Pippen and co on his team.

Kobe was taking 25+ shots a game with Kwame Brown/Smush Parker and co. on his team.

Whose really chucking here?

Again, the quality of the shots is a major factor in determining whether a player is chucking or not. Jordan scored with superb efficiency (at least pre-retirement), and led his team to three straight championships. His scoring was extremely effective and conducive to winning. No matter the FGA, that can't really be described as chucking.

JohnMax

04-02-2015, 04:36 PM

Kobe

kennethgriffin

04-02-2015, 04:36 PM

potential = kobe had more 30+/60+/70+/80+ point games in his career than jordan

kobe had more points in 3 quarters ( 62 ) than jordan ever had through 4 quarters ( 61 )

kobes half time record ( 55 ) is only 6 less points than jordans record in DOUBLE the amount of time ( 61 )

kobe is the only player to outscore a team by himself

kobe has the modern day scoring record ( 81 )

kobe ( unlike jordan ) has major scoring records in the

- illegal defense era ( 9 straight 40 point games, 12 threes in one game, 40ppg for an entire month multiple times )

- zone defense era ( 81, 4 straight 50+, 62-61, 40ppg for an entire month multiple times )

and kobe can shoot a higher three point percentage than jordan ( a guy who took only wide open shots and less than half as many total attempts ) while himself shooting over 2-3 defenders with no spacing from unlimited distances

jordan might be the more efficient scorer that protects his fg%.... but kobe is the more talented and dangerous one

again... why are there 2 threads with the same discussion going on

PejaTheSerbSnip

04-02-2015, 04:55 PM

again... why are there 2 threads with the same discussion going on
To claim that Jordan "protected his fg%"..... I mean, come on.

Everybody knows the reason MJ didn't attempt a whole lot of 3 pointers. It certainly wasn't because he wasn't capable of hitting them. It was because he played in a time where it wasn't an automatically part of every 2 guards repertoire.

When it counted, however, Jordan actually outshot Kobe from the deep. Just look at their respective finals averages.

Lastly, the nugget about Jordan attempting only wide open 3's -- yeah, no. The first 5-6 years of his career he usually only took 3's if the situation absolutely called for it. Hence the low attempts and unusually low %. Those were shots with the clock running down, or at the end of games when his team was down big.

As to the OP's question, I think its tough to say who was the better SCORER when they are both in a zone. Thats a pick 'em, wherein I'd give MJ a slight edge. But Jordan was clearly a better player when both are at their zenith, because he could put up monster secondary stats even as he was lighting up the scoreboard. That 69/18/6/2/3/1 turnover (I believe, I could be wrong) line he put up against the Cavs, I am still in awe of. Whereas Kobe is prone to getting tunnel vision when he goes on those scoring rampages. Not a bad problem to have, but that's my take on it. Good thread.

PejaTheSerbSnip

04-02-2015, 04:58 PM

Question, why is nobody factoring in postseason play?

I.e # of 30-40-50-60 point games in the postseason.

ShawkFactory

04-02-2015, 05:00 PM

Question, why is nobody factoring in postseason play?

I.e # of 30-40-50-60 point games in the postseason.
Because Jordan is amazingly superior in the postseason. Why would Kobetards bring it up?:lol

Paul George 24

04-02-2015, 05:03 PM

Paul George 24

04-02-2015, 05:05 PM

Kobe scores with much worse efficiency because he lack of basketball IQ that Jordan have :lol

scm5

04-02-2015, 05:16 PM

Kobe scores with much worse efficiency because he lack of basketball IQ that Jordan have :lol

I think he just lacked the athleticism that Jordan had.

Jordan looked like he was in another class of athlete, same as Lebron. Kobe was an elite athlete to be sure, but he's not capable of blowing by or getting the same separation or elevation that Jordan had. If he could, I'm sure he would have taken better shots. Since he can't, he takes shots that are more difficult than what Jordan could create for himself.

He still did it at a clip higher than league average, which is considered efficient.

I think that's impressive as hell.

3ball

04-02-2015, 05:27 PM

Kobe's style equaled a 6'6" Iverson.. You'd never see Jordan break the offense as often as Kobe - i.e. MJ would never bring the ball upcourt and chuck a 3-pointer right away total chucker style - but that's the ONLY WAY Kobe had big scoring games.

Kobe's never had a big scoring game without breaking the offense frequently, whereas Jordan's big scoring games came within the offense - that's a pretty big difference..

Look at his 64 point game against Shaq's Magic - you don't realize he even had 60 at the end of the game because he did it mostly off-ball and in the course of the offense.. But if that were Kobe, you'd KNOW he had 64, because his overt, Iverson-style chucking is obvious and consumes the team.

Indian guy

04-02-2015, 05:31 PM

Kobe

Better tough-shot maker in general and when in the zone, he's more likely to take and make those shots - making him more unguardable. Which is why he has some of the high-volume scoring games that MJ doesn't(and couldn't) - namely the 81 points and 62 in 3 qtrs.

MJ's shot selection on the other hand, whether in the zone or not, stayed the same. Making him the far better bet from a game-to-game basis. But when you are in the zone, teams generally start sending more and more coverage towards you and force you to pass the ball. MJ will pass the ball in that situation. Kobe won't and since he's hot, he'll shoot it and is more likely make it. Thus, more impossible to guard when feeling it.

clipps

04-02-2015, 05:33 PM

Kobe has to build himself in the zone. MJ WILL get in the zone.

3ball

04-02-2015, 05:34 PM

Question, why is nobody factoring in postseason play?

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
7. Kobe = 10
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9

Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ - 109
2. Kareem - 75
3. West -74
4. Kobe -65
5. Baylor - 60

50 Point Playoff Games

1. MJ - 8
2. Wilt - 4
3. West - 3
4. Iverson - 2
X. Kobe - 0

scm5

04-02-2015, 05:48 PM

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
7. Kobe = 10
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9

Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ - 109
2. Kareem - 75
3. West -74
4. Kobe -65
5. Baylor - 60

50 Point Playoff Games

1. MJ - 8
2. Wilt - 4
3. West - 3
4. Iverson - 2
X. Kobe - 0

where are you getting your information?

3ball

04-02-2015, 05:53 PM

where are you getting your information?
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?479028-Most-Career-40-Point-Games-in-Playoffs-History-and-30-Point-Games

I figured Kobe never had a 50 point playoff game, so I added that last part about Kobe having zero 50 point playoff games... has he had one?

Cold soul

04-02-2015, 05:57 PM

Kobe Bryant.

3ball

04-02-2015, 05:59 PM

.
REVISED Playoff Scoring List:

Most Career 50+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 8
2. Wilt = 4
3. West = 3
4. Iverson = 2
X. Kobe = 1

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
7. Kobe = 10
8. Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9

Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ - 109
2. Kareem - 75
3. West -74
4. Kobe -65
5. Baylor - 60

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?479028-Most-Career-40-Point-Games-in-Playoffs-History-and-30-Point-Games

scm5

04-02-2015, 06:02 PM

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?479028-Most-Career-40-Point-Games-in-Playoffs-History-and-30-Point-Games

I figured Kobe never had a 50 point playoff game, so I added that last part about Kobe having zero 50 point playoff games... has he had one?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200605040LAL.html

Against the player that made Lebron his bitch defensively, and while he was actually in his prime to boot.

3ball

04-02-2015, 06:29 PM

Against the player that made Lebron his bitch defensively

MJ was never anyone's bitch, even at 40 - here's a game-winner on Marion, and another would-be game winner:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Gamer_Winner_over_Shawn_55e866d2fecf7dcac60 99fab7982e21e.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Game_Winner_over_Marion_d668079a9f2b87dd28e 03fd08b32e67b.gif
.

3ball

04-02-2015, 06:33 PM

Kobe against Shawn Marion:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200605040LAL.html

Indeed... Reminds me of when 39-year old MJ scored 41 points on Shawn Marion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg

Guards like Kobe, MJ, Westbrook, or Monta Ellis that have true guard quickness (so they aren't just quick for their size) are always big mismatches for frontcourt players like Shawn Marion, Dennis Rodman, Kawhi Leonard or Boris Diaw.

That's why Jordan made made mincemeat (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858) of Rodman and Marion, while Lebron struggles with Diaw, Kawhi and Marion.

TripleA

04-02-2015, 06:40 PM

3ball lebron isn't as quick as MJ or Kobe because he is 6' 8 270 that literally like comparing chris paul to blake griffin and saying chris paul is quicker no shit. anyway who your second favorite player 3ball ?

nba_55

04-02-2015, 06:41 PM

Jordan already said his career wouldn't have been the same playing against the zone.

:banana:
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

warriorfan

04-02-2015, 06:50 PM

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Game_Winner_over_Marion_d668079a9f2b87dd28e 03fd08b32e67b.gif

:applause:

Definition of unguardable

305Baller

04-02-2015, 06:54 PM

The answer is always Jordan.

3ball

04-02-2015, 07:21 PM

3ball lebron isn't as quick as MJ or Kobe because he is 6' 8 270

The point remains - a great SG is more of a mismatch for ALL players than a SF:

Guys like MJ are too quick for frontcourt players like Shawn Marion (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11185481&postcount=57) and Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858), while they still destroy fellow SG's (http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d43a0fed435cbc48f818ee8844437e74.gif) and smaller guys (http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_shorter_KJ_05d295465e927a1ef1cf47afa41 0ad42.gif) with skill (http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9fd33210ffbcdbe117830fd26bef5f34.gif) and/or power (http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_embarrass_drexler_410b837b0c35d9433a65ba753 b222833.gif).
.

Cali Syndicate

04-02-2015, 07:29 PM

Jordan already said his career wouldn't have been the same playing against the zone.

:banana:

MJ dropped multiple 40 point games and a 50 point games in the modern zone era and some against the top defensive teams in the league at the time, and was averaging 20+ppg on a decent clip when he was healthy....

As a 40 year old. Who knows exactly how his career would pan out, mj would still dominate though.

Dragonyeuw

04-02-2015, 07:47 PM

Kobe: Absolutely zero conscience, will take the absolute worst possible shots that no sane human being should take, but somehow makes many of them and will go on ridiculous bursts taking and making 5/6/7 shots in a row when double or tripled-teamed. When on fire, often gets tunnel vision and focuses mainly on his own offence, team offence be damned or even sometimes other aspects of his game.

Jordan: More disciplined, takes the same kind of shots in the zone as when not in the zone so there's less of a 'chasm' between average night MJ and 'zone' MJ, except higher shot volume. Won't abandon other aspects of his game when on fire i.e grabbing 18 rebounds in the same night as scoring 69 while still having 3 steals and a couple of blocks, that's an athletic advantage that MJ had: better 'motor' that gave him the energy to still play other aspects of the game while expending alot of energy on offence. Jordan simply wouldn't take some of the shots that Kobe took, so I guess Kobe wins 'tougher-shot maker' by default, but that's somewhat of a back-handed compliment.

Overall, Kobe's unpredictable :biggums: shots make him tougher to cover because he simply takes shots that you as a defender don't even expect the offensive player to take. MJ, once he hit his prime, could go off but still stay within the flow of the offense and from an eye-test not look like he's deliberately shooting as much as possible.