True or False: Kevin Garnett was better then Timmy Duncan?

[TAZORAC]

I always say that certain players have been in the perfect situation to enhance indiviual accomplishments. Kevin Garnett is a much better then player then Duncan, but never really had that great of a team surrounding him. Garnett does everything better then Duncan. Tim Duncan was fortunate for his whole career to play on good teams year in and year out, Garnett had 1 maybe 2 good Timberwolves teams, and good teams with the Celtics.

Do you agree that was the better player?

[Real14]

Of course. No doubt

[Nowitness]

I always say that certain players have been in the perfect situation to enhance indiviual accomplishments. Kevin Garnett is a much better then player then Duncan, but never really had that great of a team surrounding him. Garnett does everything better then Duncan. Tim Duncan was fortunate for his whole career to play on good teams year in and year out, Garnett had 1 maybe 2 good Timberwolves teams, and good teams with the Celtics.

Do you agree that was the better player?

Garnett's 04 team was better than Duncan's 03 team.

Tell me why KG could only go as far as a WCF struggle whilst Duncan took them to the championship?

[TAZORAC]

Garnett's 04 team was better than Duncan's 03 team.

Tell me why KG could only go as far as a WCF struggle whilst Duncan took them to the championship?

Good question, the answer is, that the 04 Timberwolves just had a good starting line up and everybody was the team was no good. They weren't deep at all.

[T_L_P]

I can't think of 10 players I'd draft before Garnett, but no, he's not better than Duncan.

And your statement that he does everything better than Duncan is just laughable. Duncan's entire style of play was simply much more effective than the brand of basketball Garnett liked to play.

Prime Garnett (00-08) shot .523 TS% in the Playoffs, mostly on post-fadeaways and jumpers. How many teams have ever won championships with their alpha dog shooting that poorly?

Prime Duncan (98-07) shot .560 TS% in the Playoffs, mostly on low-post isolation plays. Low-post play draws more double teams and it allows you to see the floor better.

And before you chalk it up to teammates, Garnett was being assisted on 60% of his baskets (a lot of catch-and-shoots) while Duncan was assisted on a mere 47% of his (like I said, isolation plays with no help from his "stacked" team).

Garnett may very well be the better defensive player (though I don't think that's true for the Playoffs, plus I prefer a traditional defensive anchor to one who floats around on the perimeter), but Duncan is/was much more effective on offense, especially in the postseason (when he stepped up, unlike Garnett).

Not to mention Duncan brings all the intangibles. He doesn't fight with teammates and he's an actual leader (Rasho played with both of them and he said Tim is the better leader).

Lastly, here is the 97-14 RAPM, which covers both of their careers (except Garnett's rookie season, which is probably a good thing for him)

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

Duncan is #2 with a 5.09
Garnett is #5 with a 4.75

[westsideozzie]

I can't think of 10 players I'd draft before Garnett, but no, he's not better than Duncan.

And your statement that he does everything better than Duncan is just laughable. Duncan's entire style of play was simply much more effective than the brand of basketball Garnett liked to play.

Prime Garnett (00-08) shot .523 TS% in the Playoffs, mostly on post-fadeaways and jumpers. How many teams have ever won championships with their alpha dog shooting that poorly?

Prime Duncan (98-07) shot .560 TS% in the Playoffs, mostly on low-post isolation plays. Low-post play draws more double teams and it allows you to see the floor better.

And before you chalk it up to teammates, Garnett was being assisted on 60% of his baskets (a lot of catch-and-shoots) while Duncan was assisted on a mere 47% of his (like I said, isolation plays with no help from his "stacked" team).

Garnett may very well be the better defensive player (though I don't think that's true for the Playoffs, plus I prefer a traditional defensive anchor to one who floats around on the perimeter), but Duncan is/was much more effective on offense, especially in the postseason (when he stepped up, unlike Garnett).

Not to mention Duncan brings all the intangibles. He doesn't fight with teammates and he's an actual leader (Rasho played with both of them and he said Tim is the better leader).

Lastly, here is the 97-14 RAPM, which covers all of their careers (except Garnett's rookie season, which is probably a good thing for him)

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

Duncan is #2 with a 5.09
Garnett is #5 with a 4.75

The biggest difference between the two is that Timmy was big enough to get on the blocks, get to the line, and put your other bigs in foul trouble. While I think KG was a more versatile defender, Duncan's game was a bit more functional and efficient. KG got alot better as he put on weight..

[warriorfan]

Garnett was never as good as Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan is a much better rim protector and more reliable offensive option in the clutch. I would rather have Tim Duncan in the low post rather than Garnett jacking up 18 foot jumpers.

[BlakFrankWhite]

Garnett was never as good as Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan is a much better rim protector and more reliable offensive option in the clutch. I would rather have Tim Duncan in the low post rather than Garnett jacking up 18 foot jumpers.


yeah...this

[r0drig0lac]

Even KG does not believe that was better than Tim

[JohnFreeman]

Duncan
Dirk
Garnett

Let's be honest.

[DirkNowitzki41]

Duncan
Dirk
Garnett

Let's be honest.

this

[eklip]

No. Maybe Garnett's numbers looked better in the regular season because he played on a bad team, but Duncan was definitely the better player.

[gcvbcat]

false.

garnett is overratted. much like shakeel, hakeem, kareem, jamal, shareef, rasheed... & the like.

[iamgine]

They are close but Duncan proved himself repeatedly while KG never had the chance. That's the difference. Unfortunate for KG but that's the way it goes.

[sd3035]

Garnett is a scrawny wimp with tremendously overrated defense and mediocre offense

[miles berg]

Lol, not even close.

[LAZERUSS]

Garnett was more talented, but Duncan was the better player.

[IGOTGAME]

Garnett was more talented, but Duncan was the better player.
Was he? What makes Garnett more "talented?"

[LAZERUSS]

Was he? What makes Garnett more "talented?"

Better range, better ball-handling skills, quicker, faster, more athletic...you name it. Probably taller, too.

[I<3NBA]

Garnett's 04 team was better than Duncan's 03 team.

Tell me why KG could only go as far as a WCF struggle whilst Duncan took them to the championship?
Pop>>>>>>>>Flip

[FatComputerNerd]

Duncan generally played like a Center.

Garnett was more of a PF, with guard-like abilities.



Both were great passers, both elite defenders. Garnett was probably a more versatile defender in some ways, but then again, so was Duncan...

Both were great overall, and I don't think it's even fair to ask who was "better".

[Spurs5Rings2014]

I can't think of 10 players I'd draft before Garnett, but no, he's not better than Duncan.

And your statement that he does everything better than Duncan is just laughable. Duncan's entire style of play was simply much more effective than the brand of basketball Garnett liked to play.

Prime Garnett (00-08) shot .523 TS% in the Playoffs, mostly on post-fadeaways and jumpers. How many teams have ever won championships with their alpha dog shooting that poorly?

Prime Duncan (98-07) shot .560 TS% in the Playoffs, mostly on low-post isolation plays. Low-post play draws more double teams and it allows you to see the floor better.

And before you chalk it up to teammates, Garnett was being assisted on 60% of his baskets (a lot of catch-and-shoots) while Duncan was assisted on a mere 47% of his (like I said, isolation plays with no help from his "stacked" team).

Garnett may very well be the better defensive player (though I don't think that's true for the Playoffs, plus I prefer a traditional defensive anchor to one who floats around on the perimeter), but Duncan is/was much more effective on offense, especially in the postseason (when he stepped up, unlike Garnett).

Not to mention Duncan brings all the intangibles. He doesn't fight with teammates and he's an actual leader (Rasho played with both of them and he said Tim is the better leader).

Lastly, here is the 97-14 RAPM, which covers both of their careers (except Garnett's rookie season, which is probably a good thing for him)

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

Duncan is #2 with a 5.09
Garnett is #5 with a 4.75

:applause:

[IGOTGAME]

Better range, better ball-handling skills, quicker, faster, more athletic...you name it. Probably taller, too.

But he lack of strength and slight frame...the reason he is quicker, faster and more athletic in a general sense is the same reason he couldn't succeed on the level Duncan did as a basketball player.

[LAZERUSS]

But he lack of strength and slight frame...the reason he is quicker, faster and more athletic in a general sense is the same reason he couldn't succeed on the level Duncan did as a basketball player.

We'll never know, but I do think that had KG had Pop for a coach, and with Pop being able to build surrounding rosters, that Garnett might very well have had similar team success in his career.

[ShawkFactory]

Overall at their peaks it's neck-and-neck.

I couldn't see Garnett holdin down the fort for 17+ years though. At least not to the level Duncan has.

If I'm drafting give me Duncan.

[IGOTGAME]

We'll never know, but I do think that had KG had Pop for a coach, and with Pop being able to build surrounding rosters, that Garnett might very well have had similar team success in his career.

Possibly. But I think Duncan would have won more in Garnett's situation or any situation.

[mehyaM24]

going by the data? i'll say yes - true. when healthy and on loaded rosters, garnett either led the league in RAPM or was top 3 from 2008-2011 (few years removed from his prime).

the twist? garnett led the league in rapm from 2003-2004, which is widely considered duncan's peak - this with a far worse roster and headcoaching, which goes back to what i've always said: you replace kg with duncan, and the spurs either have similar success or better because of garnett's pug-like style. other than being the more skilled player, kg also adapted quicker. unlike duncan, who for the most part is a system player - not that there's anything wrong with that.

just look at their olympic performances. duncan could not adapt to the european bigs who made him look rather average (much of this had to with not having popovich's coaching. he was NOT the HC during that tournament). otoh, kg out-skilled everyone in front of him.

after winning gold, without shaq, most considered kg the best player on team usa.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

going by the data? i'll say yes - true. when healthy and on loaded rosters, garnett either led the league in RAPM or was top 3 from 2008-2011 (few years removed from his prime).

the twist? garnett led the league in rapm from 2003-2004, which is widely considered duncan's peak - this with a far worse roster and headcoaching, which goes back to what i've always said: you replace kg with duncan, and the spurs either have similar success or better because of garnett's pug-like style. other than being the more skilled player, kg also adapted quicker. unlike duncan, who for the most part is a system player - not that there's anything wrong with that.

just look at their olympic performances. duncan could not adapt to the european bigs who made him look rather average (much of this had to with not having popovich's coaching). otoh, kg out-skilled everyone in front of him. after winning gold, without shaq, most considered kg the best player on team usa.

:biggums:

So much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin.

2003-2004 season was Garnett's peak, he won the MVP that season. 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 seasons are Duncan's peak, he won MVP's those seasons.

Garnett did not have a far worse roster in 2004. Duncan won with one of the worst supporting casts ever in 2003 and not much changed in 2004. Garnett had Cassell and Sprewell in 2004. His roster wasn't as bad as you're making out. You also can''t just "replace" Duncan with KG and have everything fit perfectly together. KG has a completely different playing style to Duncan that is much less effective as being "the man." Saying Duncan is a system player is just blatant trolling at this point. There was no system back in Duncan's prime. The system was get the ball to Duncan and watch him work.

Bringing up exhibition games, really? Duncan had one of the worst Olympics teams ever and news flash, genius, Pop was a coach on that team. It's not Duncan's fault no one else wanted to do the Olympics that year and he was asked to carry a Z team to a gold medal that didn't fit together at all. Honestly, I don't know how you're back green again. Maybe it's because you finally stopped making fake RAPM threads for every year someone else besides Jordan should of won an MVP.

:oldlol:

[mehyaM24]

:biggums:

So much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin.

2003-2004 season was Garnett's peak, he won the MVP that season. 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 seasons are Duncan's peak, he won MVP's those seasons.

i don't care much about the rest of your post, because its mostly excuses and hyperbole, but i do take issue with this.

when i say 2003-2004 i don't mean the 2003-04 season. i meant garnett, with crappy rosters, led the league in rapm during BOTH the 02-03 and 03-04 seasons.

replace duncan and you plug garnett into that 2003 spurs team, with goat role players, international talent & coaching? he would win a championship too.

just obvious.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

i don't care much about the rest of your post, because its mostly excuses and hyperbole, but i do take issue with this.

when i say 2003-2004 i don't mean the 2003-04 season. i meant garnett, with crappy rosters, led the league in rapm during BOTH the 02-03 and 03-04 seasons.

replace duncan and you plug garnett into that 2003 spurs team, with goat role players, international talent & coaching? he would win a championship too.

just obvious.

Your whole post was hyperbole.

:roll:

Really? How about you tell me what their career RAPM is then? Since Garnett is clearly better in your eyes?

See, this what I mean by you trolling again. "GOAT roleplayers" on the 2003 Spurs?

:biggums:

C'mon, man. At least try to not make it so obvious. I don''t want to go to the trouble of posting up second option Parker with 14 ppg, etc. This is just ridiculous, dude. Please stop. KG couldn't average 30+ a game for multiple series' as "the man" just getting the ball down low on the block in isolation on every play.

:facepalm

[toxicxr6]

i don't care much about the rest of your post, because its mostly excuses and hyperbole, but i do take issue with this.

when i say 2003-2004 i don't mean the 2003-04 season. i meant garnett, with crappy rosters, led the league in rapm during BOTH the 02-03 and 03-04 seasons.

replace duncan and you plug garnett into that 2003 spurs team, with goat role players, international talent & coaching? he would win a championship too.

just obvious.

And please tell me who these "goat role players" are
Was it Tony Parker who averaged 13ppg on 40% shooting or David Robinson who averaged 8pg???

If you don't think that Duncan's 2003 supporting cast was trash then you either didn't watch back then or your a troll.. It's not even debatable and it's pretty much agreed by all basketball enthusiasts with at least half a brain that Duncan's 2003 championship supporting cast was one of the worst in history

[Spurs5Rings2014]

And please tell me who these "goat role players" are
Was it Tony Parker who averaged 13ppg on 40% shooting or David Robinson who averaged 8pg???

If you don't think that Duncan's 2003 supporting cast was trash then you either didn't watch back then or your a troll.. It's not even debatable and it's pretty much agreed by all basketball enthusiasts with at least half a brain that Duncan's 2003 championship supporting cast was one of the worst in history

Don't do 'em like that.

:lol

[mehyaM24]

lol @ singling out tony parker.

tp absolutely killed the lakers with his dribble penetration & playmaking. i remember charles barkley during one of the tnt broadcasts kept telling the lakers to knock him on his ass (srs). he carved up the lakers perimeter defense.

manu was steady all postseason with his skills & playmaking. bowen? aside from being the best perimeter defender maybe you could also point out why he didn't average over 20 a game? :oldlol: i swear you spurs fans are basketball illiterate. the game isn't measured by your raw numbers output. defense & various aspects of impact are not defined by raw stats.

would i be remiss to not point out david robinson's defense and rebounding, kerr's blistering 3PT shooting, stephen jackson's 3PT shooting and defense? popovich's coaching anybody?

i actually watched those teams then - they were stacked like pancakes.

[DMAVS41]

lol @ singling out tony parker.

tp absolutely killed the lakers with his dribble penetration & playmaking. i remember charles barkley during one of the tnt broadcasts kept telling the lakers to knock him on his ass (srs). he carved up the lakers perimeter defense.

manu was steady all postseason with his skills & playmaking. bowen? aside from being the best perimeter defender maybe you could also point out why he didn't average over 20 a game? :oldlol: i swear you spurs fans are basketball illiterate. the game isn't measured by your raw numbers output. defense & various aspects of impact are not defined by raw stats.

would i be remiss to not point out david robinson's defense and rebounding, kerr's blistering 3PT shooting, stephen jackson's 3PT shooting and defense? popovich's coaching anybody?

i actually watched those teams then - they were stacked like pancakes.

Stacked? Just no.

Good? Sure.

Great outside of Duncan? Hell no.

They did catch some lucky breaks. Kobe and Shaq were feuding and it boiled over to on court play. Dirk got hurt in the WCF and prevented that series from going 7 in a toss up. The East was, well, the East with no real chance to win.

So at least talk about the things that actually might diminish Duncan leading that team to a title in a clear down year with lucky breaks.

Don't talk about how good Parker or Manu or Jackson or Speedy Claxton were back then. They were okay...nothing more.

Duncan played like 44 mpg iirc and just dominated. That is why they won. Duncan and some lucky breaks (which almost every championship team has in some form or another mind you).

[mehyaM24]

i never calimed they were allstars or anything like that.

i said the spurs had a great combination of role players, international talent & coaching - which is all true.

duncan played/had a whale of a season that year. never said otherwise.

[Dresta]

Garnett is massively overrated on this site despite his repeated playoff failures, and repeated inability to raise his game when it mattered most. Not as good as Dirk, even, for that very reason.

[DMAVS41]

i never calimed they were allstars or anything like that.

i said the spurs had a great combination of role players, international talent & coaching - which is all true.

duncan played/had a whale of a season that year. never said otherwise.

you said they were stacked. which is about as false as it gets in the NBA. They had all unproven players outside of Duncan and an aging Robinson.

[Legends66NBA7]

It was close in their primes. Too good to be "much better".

Duncan preformed higher in the playoffs and has more memorable games/production, so it's him.

[mehyaM24]

you said they were stacked.

they were stacked. their raw numbers don't mean anything to me.

[DMAVS41]

they were stacked. their raw numbers don't mean anything to me.

you don't know the definition of the word then.

it was literally all Duncan.

if he plays just great and not all time unreal great...they don't beat the Lakers or Mavs. He dominated on both ends of the floor like few in NBA history ever have.

[mehyaM24]

you don't know the definition of the word then.

it was "literally" all Duncan.

if he plays just great and not all time unreal great...they don't beat the Lakers or Mavs. He dominated on both ends of the floor like few in NBA history ever have.
it wasn't literally all duncan. duncan wasn't the best perimeter defender, 3PT shooter, or the most efficient player on the team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4caOwS6jI

^^ when you have a team going on a 42-15 run, in the playoffs against one of the BEST teams out west - and you're only responsible for maybe 6 or 7 points of those 42? you got a pretty stacked ****ing team.

learn the game and stop looking at box scores.

[kennethgriffin]

true


put kg in sanantonio and maybe they actually win 1 of the 3 times they lost to kobe with the spurs having home court advantage

and kg makes that layup in 2013


7 rings for kg

the spurs for the last 18 years have had

- a hof coach
- a top 50 all time sidekick
- a great supporting cast


every single year




theyve choked away the #1 record or #1 seed like 8 or 9 times


kg = olympic gold... duncan = bronze

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

lol @ singling out tony parker.

tp absolutely killed the lakers with his dribble penetration & playmaking. i remember charles barkley during one of the tnt broadcasts kept telling the lakers to knock him on his ass (srs). he carved up the lakers perimeter defense.

manu was steady all postseason with his skills & playmaking. bowen? aside from being the best perimeter defender maybe you could also point out why he didn't average over 20 a game? :oldlol: i swear you spurs fans are basketball illiterate. the game isn't measured by your raw numbers output. defense & various aspects of impact are not defined by raw stats.

would i be remiss to not point out david robinson's defense and rebounding, kerr's blistering 3PT shooting, stephen jackson's 3PT shooting and defense? popovich's coaching anybody?

i actually watched those teams then - they were stacked like pancakes.Stacked like pancakes? Uh okay, slow down there.

Duncan's supporting cast shot a combined 42% in the 2003 playoffs.

Manu and Parker had a sub-50% TS.

Robinson averaged 8-7 in 24 minutes a game.

Kerr played 46 minutes in 24 games! Jackson was alright but even he wasn't really anything to write home about - 13-15 ppg on 53 TS%


admittedly, their strong defensive play made up some ground, but that team was NOT stacked. It was a bunch of spare parts, consisting of a bunch of players that were either way past their prime or hadn't reached it.


Duncan led that team in scoring, averaging 24.7 ppg. The second highest scores averaged 14.7!

Led them in RPG with 15.3. Next highest? 6.6!!!

led them in APG with 5.3, 1.8 more than the next highest, Parker.

Had more blocks than the rest of the team COMBINED.

had almost triple the amount of win shares as the next best guy, his BPM/rapm was almost three times better than the next best, and he had the highest offensive rating/lowest defensive rating on the entire team throughout their playoff run.


You can't honestly tell me Duncan didn't carry that team any less than LeBron carried the Heat in '13, which is a position you that you have steadfastly defended in the past.

[tpols]

you don't know the definition of the word then.

it was literally all Duncan.

if he plays just great and not all time unreal great...they don't beat the Lakers or Mavs. He dominated on both ends of the floor like few in NBA history ever have.

Relative to the competition ? No they were stacked.

HCA advantage throughout.

Top 2 or 3 defensive center in league..

collection of young offensive perimeter talent w/ spread out double figure scoring in manu s jax and parker.

some shutdown perimeter defenders

Goat coach

For help against a worn down laker team coming off three straight rings.. a team minus theai best player in the WCF's..and a east team weaker tHan themselves on every front.

It cannot even be compared to hakeem run where he won every round without hca and agains healthy prime superstars. Or even dirk in 2011 where he did the same exact thing

Never has a 1 seed been so celebrated as a Cinderella team besides the 03 spurs

[warriorfan]

true


put kg in sanantonio and maybe they actually win 1 of the 3 times they lost to kobe with the spurs having home court advantage

and kg makes that layup in 2013


7 rings for kg

the spurs for the last 18 years have had

- a hof coach
- a top 50 all time sidekick
- a great supporting cast


every single year




theyve choked away the #1 record or #1 seed like 8 or 9 times


kg = olympic gold... duncan = bronze


nope, KG would of choked it up and saddled the franchise with an absurd contract and then leave despite his contract being the reason why they would lose

[kennethgriffin]

garnett was the better basketball player

he was basically tim duncan

except with more handles

more range

better defense

more leadership

more athleticism

more skills in general

[T_L_P]

Stacked like pancakes? Uh okay, slow down there.

Duncan's supporting cast shot a combined 42% in the 2003 playoffs.

Manu and Parker had a sub-50% TS.

Robinson averaged 8-7 in 24 minutes a game.

Kerr played 46 minutes in 24 games! Jackson was alright but even he wasn't really anything to write home about - 13-15 ppg on 53 TS%


admittedly, their strong defensive play made up some ground, but that team was NOT stacked. It was a bunch of spare parts, consisting of a bunch of players that were either way past their prime or hadn't reached it.


Duncan led that team in scoring, averaging 24.7 ppg. The second highest scores averaged 14.7!

Led them in RPG with 15.3. Next highest? 6.6!!!

led them in APG with 5.3, 1.8 more than the next highest, Parker.

Had more blocks than the rest of the team COMBINED.

had almost triple the amount of win shares as the next best guy, his BPM/rapm was almost three times better than the next best, and he had the highest offensive rating/lowest defensive rating on the entire team throughout their playoff run.


You can't honestly tell me Duncan didn't carry that team any less than LeBron carried the Heat in '13, which is a position you that you have steadfastly defended in the past.

What's funny is he posts a video of the Spurs going on a scoring run with Duncan not scoring much, using this as "proof" of how stacked they were, yet he preaches that the box score is useless.

If you watch the video, you can see that most of those 3s were wide open, all because the Mavs were doubling and tripling Duncan as soon as he touched the ball.

b.b.but, he only scored a few of those points. :lol

Spurs without Duncan on the floor had an ORtg of 90, #16 of all Playoff teams (they also had an eFG% of .383, terrible).

I also find it funny that he'd use a few games to show how good Parker was when he always talks big picture...using season-long RAPM numbers to break down how effective a player was in the postseason (:facepalm).

With Parker on the court, the Spurs were outscoring their opponents by 1.2 points. With him off the court they outscored their opponents by 18.2 points. He had a TS% of .468, PER of 11.9 (with a USG% of 23.8), .053 WS/48, -1.8 BPM. Just horrible play based on how many possessions he used up.

But no, he carved up Shaq for a couple of games so his 24 game run must have been elite.

[T_L_P]

more leadership


You played alongside the best two PFs of the last 15 years, Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, who both won an MVP award and a championship ring. Who made a bigger impression on you?

Rasho:


I have to say Duncan. He is a true team leader. Garnett is a phenomenal player with great physical abilities but I don't think he is mentally strong enough to be a team leader. If he would have stayed in Minessota I don't think he would ever win a ring. He did the right move by going to Boston because there is Paul Pierce who is a true team leader that scores in clutch moments.

[dubeta]

Duncans 2003 championship run was basically a poor mans 2012 LeBron run

[Dbrog]

Definitely not. Emotions got the best of KG many times. He was also never a go-to guy in the clutch like timmy was. That said, KG would keep you in every single game with his incredible versatility on both ends. He literally made every single thing run smoother on his teams. It's kinda funny that his one real weakness was scoring. Yes, he had his postup turnaround but he wasn't anywhere near the force Duncan was scoring-wise. Duncan also just a much superior leader (see: every teammate to ever play with him).

[Odinn]

KG never had the offensive weaponary Duncan had. That's why Duncan was better and more reliable playoff performer.

Also, would you please stop using KG's Minnie days as excuse?.. I'm sure he doesn't have regrets about making 100 million US Dollars more.

[kennethgriffin]

KG never had the offensive weaponary Duncan had. That's why Duncan was better and more reliable playoff performer.

Also, would you please stop using KG's Minnie days as excuse?.. I'm sure he doesn't have regrets about making 100 million US Dollars more.


:roll:


duncan has his flat footed wide open bank and a hook

kg has actually jumpers, post moves and much more


garnett had nearly everything a guard and post player could do

[T_L_P]

:roll:

Prime TS% of .523 in the Playoffs...because he liked taking shitty outside shots instead of banging down low or getting to the line as much as possible.

Also, Rasho just shut you down completely.

[BlakFrankWhite]

The Duncan hating needs to stop...

KG had a better team in Boston...then Duncan ever did...and could win ONLY 1 ring in 6 years of prime(2007-12).

[macpierce]

duncan
dirk
kg

[kennethgriffin]

The Duncan hating needs to stop...

KG had a better team in Boston...then Duncan ever did...and could win ONLY 1 ring in 6 years of prime(2007-12).

kg on the celtics vs kobe = 1-1

duncan on the spurs vs kobe = 2-4


and there was a big coaching difference between the preacher overrated doc rivers and the actual goat level coach greg popovich

[DonDadda59]

Nah. KG was a phenom though. But he wouldn't have put up those gaudy numbers he did back then on better squads, ie what happened when he went to Boston. And he's played on some stacked teams the second half of his career. Still down 5 to 1 vs Timmy in ring count. Hasn't aged nearly as well as the Big Fundamental.

[BlakFrankWhite]

kg on the celtics vs kobe = 1-1

duncan on the spurs vs kobe = 2-4


and there was a big coaching difference between the preacher overrated doc rivers and the actual goat level coach greg popovich

Lmao....might as well take all of Kobe's accomplishements and throw threm in the trash...considering he did f### all in his career without Phil.

Back to topic...considering the 'Minny' excuse is one of your favs....I'm using Boston...and KG had 2 hall of famers as his teammates...and a double double machine in Rondo and could win just one ring....

And yeah what matters is how many rings you win...not the career head to head :facepalm

[BlakFrankWhite]

Has Kobe even led a lakers team to a finish above 7th place...wihout his daddy Phil?

[greatest-ever]

It's certainly close as far as judging just the player they are. And team success does make the gap seem larger than it is. With that being said Duncan is clearly the better player to me although the gap isn't large, he's just a more reliable offensive player in the playoffs. And i don't think any version of KG could've led the Spurs to a title in 2003.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

kg on the celtics vs kobe = 1-1

duncan on the spurs vs kobe = 2-4


and there was a big coaching difference between the preacher overrated doc rivers and the actual goat level coach greg popovich

TL;DR.

Duncan > Kobe.

Duncan > Garnett for the purposes of this thread.

[greatest-ever]

The Duncan hating needs to stop...

KG had a better team in Boston...then Duncan ever did...and could win ONLY 1 ring in 6 years of prime(2007-12).
Garnett was far past his prime from 2010-2012. And in 09 he was hurt, 07 his team was trash.

[ShawkFactory]

Ken so salty about Duncan :roll:

[k0kakw0rld]

false.

garnett is overratted. much like shaeel, hakeem, kareem & the like.

I won't slam you since you clearly need education.

[T_L_P]

Garnett was far past his prime from 2010-2012. And in 09 he was hurt, 07 his team was trash.

To be fair, that 09 team won a Playoff series without Garnett, then took the 60 win Magic to 7 games.

I could never imagine any Spurs team winning a Playoff series without Duncan, let alone almost beating a team as good as the Magic. :confusedshrug:

Heck, when Duncan did miss a postseason (2000) they lost handidly to the Suns.

[AkronAngel]

False.

[The Iron Sheik]

And before you chalk it up to teammates, Garnett was being assisted on 60% of his baskets (a lot of catch-and-shoots) while Duncan was assisted on a mere 47% of his (like I said, isolation plays with no help from his "stacked" team).


this is a really terrible way to try and say who had better teammates

[Rob123]

Are you kidding me this is a thread? Cmon people lets be more intelligent than this.

[mehyaM24]

Garnett was far past his prime from 2010-2012. And in 09 he was hurt, 07 his team was trash.
this.

when healthy, as i pointed out, kg led all bigs in RAPM amid the 2008, 2009, and 2010 seasons. past his physical prime due to carrying a heavy load in minnesota (never had the luxury of playing alongside 2 of the greatest international players ever, the GOAT coach, or a multitude of HOF role players).

just think about the 2002-03 season. rapm suggests kg was more ****ing impactful than duncan's best year statistically. this on a mediocre team....

but yea, the most skilled pf of his era isn't creating a dynasty with sa? okay :rolleyes:

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Definitely. The gap is small but clear
Timmy was just blessed with an incredible situation as good as almost any superstar had while KG got the polar opposite. When KG finally got a good consistent supporting cast he got hurt when he was known as an ironman before. Just bad luck

[3ball]

early in his career, garnett was not a great leader - but he became a great one.

otoh, duncan was never a great leader - i always looked at his loss in the 2004 olympics as a testament to his mediocre leadership.. iverson went buckwild and ran the team - consequently, everyone turned chucker 1-on-1 hero and the team played horrifically as a team..

all while duncan's passive style stood by idly and helpless.
.

[T_L_P]

early in his career, garnett was not a great leader - but he became a great one.

otoh, duncan was never a great leader - i always looked at his loss in the 2004 olympics as a testament to his mediocre leadership.. iverson went buckwild and ran the team - consequently, everyone turned chucker 1-on-1 hero and the team played horrifically as a team..

all while duncan's passive style stood by idly and helpless.
.


You played alongside the best two PFs of the last 15 years, Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, who both won an MVP award and a championship ring. Who made a bigger impression on you?

Rasho:


I have to say Duncan. He is a true team leader. Garnett is a phenomenal player with great physical abilities but I don't think he is mentally strong enough to be a team leader. If he would have stayed in Minessota I don't think he would ever win a ring. He did the right move by going to Boston because there is Paul Pierce who is a true team leader that scores in clutch moments.

That's a guy who played with both Garnett and Duncan, while you've never had any sort of encounter with either (you can judge their play on the court, but you have no idea what kind of leadership any player has).

Also, look at Steve Kerr's comparison of Duncan's and MJ's leadership tactics. You can really tell in his tone which one he thinks was better (again, this runs contrary to your post which says Duncan was never a great leader).

Also, go look at how every past teammate speaks of Tim. They also pretty much say he's the best teammate they've ever had and a great leader (for the third time, what they say on intangibles and locker-room stuff is the only thing we can use to judge good or bad leadership).

[tpols]

early in his career, garnett was not a great leader - but he became a great one.

otoh, duncan was never a great leader - i always looked at his loss in the 2004 olympics as a testament to his mediocre leadership - iverson ran buckwild, ran the team, and consequently, everyone turned chucker 1-on-1 hero and the team played horrific team ball...

all while duncan's passive style stood by idly and helpless.

Duncan has always been a super glue guy.. plugging holes. But as far as dominant offense takeover type player he can't really do that. Manu did that and parker did as well to a certain extent.

When he ran into an ultra aggressive type in iverson obviously he didn't have the ability to right that offensive ship. In order to take over offensively you have to have more ability and a certain offensive mindset.

[mehyaM24]

duncan isn't a leader. he is quiet & passive aggressive. like kobe, they both "lead" by example.

you need to be vocal, masculine, & above all else skilled - garnett & mj meet that criteria.

[T_L_P]

duncan isn't a leader. he is quiet & passive aggressive. like kobe, they both "lead" by example.

you need to be vocal, masculine, & above all else skilled - garnett & mj meet that criteria.

"I don't think he is mentally strong enough to be a team leader."

Whatever you say, bud. :oldlol:

Duncan is obviously very skilled. As far as the vocal part, you'll remember Robert Horry saying Duncan talks as much as any teammate he's ever had (and he had a lot of them).

[mehyaM24]

"I don't think he is mentally strong enough to be a team leader."

Whatever you say, bud. :oldlol:
rasho would probably say the same thing about duncan had he played in minnesota.

they would fair worse, tbh.

people confuse pop's system & leadership with duncan's allstar status. not the same thing.

[dubeta]

Neither were great leaders

KG was an insecure person who was mentally weak and had to cover it up with his verbal assaults on players smaller than him, as well as differing to others in big playoff games. Everyone could see through his 'intense', persona

Duncan relied on a well-oiled system, and playes who knew their role, as well as manu and TP providing the on-court leadership. The Spurs already knew their role as well as the game plan, and Duncan was another piece in the puzzle.

[T_L_P]

rasho would probably say the same thing about duncan had he played in minnesota.

they would fair worse, tbh.

people confuse pop's system & leadership with duncan's allstar status. not the same thing.

Of course he would. :oldlol:

Edited my post and added the Horry quote.

http://photos.sacurrent.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/tim-duncan-coach-o.gif

Add to that the words of every teammate he's ever had. Players like Stephen Jackson saying the Spurs play for Tim Duncan (after game 6 of 03 Finals), or Robinson getting schooled by Tim in their first practice and telling Pop it's his team now.

[Purch]

Peopl do realize that the system we know today for the Spurs, didn't exist until around 2011. In Duncan's prime years the whole offense was centered around pounding the ball to him down low

[ProfessorMurder]

Rasho:



That's a guy who played with both Garnett and Duncan, while you've never had any sort of encounter with either (you can judge their play on the court, but you have no idea what kind of leadership any player has).

Also, look at Steve Kerr's comparison of Duncan's and MJ's leadership tactics. You can really tell in his tone which one he thinks was better (again, this runs contrary to your post which says Duncan was never a great leader).

Also, go look at how every past teammate speaks of Tim. They also pretty much say he's the best teammate they've ever had and a great leader (for the third time, what they say on intangibles and locker-room stuff is the only thing we can use to judge good or bad leadership).

Orly? Rasho sucking the nards of a guy who won him a ring, stop the presses.

:rolleyes:

[ProfessorMurder]

Peopl do realize that the system we know today for the Spurs, didn't exist until around 2011. In Duncan's prime years the whole offense was centered around pounding the ball to him down low

And people should realize that Minnesota is an inept shithole of a franchise that gave KG virtually no chance to succeed.

[3ball]

Neither were great leaders

KG was an insecure person who was mentally weak and had to cover it up with his verbal assaults on players smaller than him, as well as differing to others in big playoff games. Everyone could see through his 'intense', persona

Duncan relied on a well-oiled system, and players who knew their role, as well as manu and TP providing the on-court leadership. The Spurs already knew their role as well as the game plan, and Duncan was another piece in the puzzle.
can't believe i'm basically agreeing with dubeta on everything here... i'd still take garnett's leadership style if i had to choose.. i do believe he would've stood up to Iverson in the 2004 Olympics - Garnett would have feuded with him, and then the team would've worked it out and been better for it.

duncan's one of those "lead by example" types, and obviously, that doesn't always work.. the real leader of that team is Pop, and he's quite fiery.. to me, duncan is the ultimate system player that can get lost in faster paced, more playground, free-flowing brands of basketball.. just my opinion - i don't have actual facts to back this up like i normally would.. :D

[MJistheGOAT]

Peopl do realize that the system we know today for the Spurs, didn't exist until around 2011. In Duncan's prime years the whole offense was centered around pounding the ball to him down low

Agree
Pop, Duncan and Spurs franchise (and in a lesser way Manu and TP) have made each other a better coach/player/team. You can argue for one or another as the most important, but there

[TAZORAC]

Garnett played CENTER with the Celtics, other then his last year with the Celtics and his injury year, he was TOP 3 Centers int he league behind Howard.

[Derka]

Garnett played CENTER with the Celtics, other then his last year with the Celtics and his injury year, he was TOP 3 Centers int he league behind Howard.
KG didn't play center until Perkins was traded.

[gcvbcat]

KG is fake thru & thru. His reaction when celtics won in 08 was so over the top fake, holding the trophy & howling....allen & pierce were the main men on that team.

[houston]

Garnett was never as good as Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan is a much better rim protector and more reliable offensive option in the clutch. I would rather have Tim Duncan in the low post rather than Garnett jacking up 18 foot jumpers.


this man speaks the truth

[Paul George 24]

can't believe i'm basically agreeing with dubeta on everything here... i'd still take garnett's leadership style if i had to choose.. i do believe he would've stood up to Iverson in the 2004 Olympics - Garnett would have feuded with him, and then the team would've worked it out and been better for it.

duncan's one of those "lead by example" types, and obviously, that doesn't always work.. the real leader of that team is Pop, and he's quite fiery.. to me, duncan is the ultimate system player that can get lost in faster paced, more playground, free-flowing brands of basketball.. just my opinion - i don't have actual facts to back this up like i normally would.. :D
MORON :facepalm

[Jacks3]

Peopl do realize that the system we know today for the Spurs, didn't exist until around 2011. In Duncan's prime years the whole offense was centered around pounding the ball to him down low

Yeah, and their offense became much better when they moved away from Duncan and started running it more from the perimeter, which just goes to show you how overrated ISO post offense is. KG's brand of offense may not have been as efficient, but he was a noticeably better shooter and a better passer, which scales better to great offenses.

[Mr. Jabbar]

its close. kobe > lebron tho

[jbryan1984]

That's about as big of a wash as you gonna get power forward wise. Duncan will always be higher up because of his five championships obviously. As a player though, they were both pretty even. Both great defenders and scorers in their day. KG was on a lot of losing teams. Duncan has never been on a losing time. Ever. So, probably I would go with Duncan at the end of the day.

[rmt]

Relative to the competition ? No they were stacked.

HCA advantage throughout.

Top 2 or 3 defensive center in league..

collection of young offensive perimeter talent w/ spread out double figure scoring in manu s jax and parker.

some shutdown perimeter defenders

Goat coach

For help against a worn down laker team coming off three straight rings.. a team minus theai best player in the WCF's..and a east team weaker tHan themselves on every front.

It cannot even be compared to hakeem run where he won every round without hca and agains healthy prime superstars. Or even dirk in 2011 where he did the same exact thing

Never has a 1 seed been so celebrated as a Cinderella team besides the 03 spurs

Top 2 or 3 defensive center - 38 year old who played 23 minutes

Parker 14.7 pts / 3.7 asst 40.3%
SJax 12.8 pts / 4.1 rebs 41.4%
Manu 9.4 pts / 3.8 rebs 38.6% - double figure scoring? on 38.6% shooting

Who beside Bowen (defensive 2nd team that year) was a shutdown perimeter defender?

Do you really think that Popovich with ONE championship during the 03 run was considered a GOAT level coach? Nope. He had less than 7 years of head coaching experience and 1 championship.

[Jacks3]

going by the data? i'll say yes - true. when healthy and on loaded rosters, garnett either led the league in RAPM or was top 3 from 2008-2011 (few years removed from his prime).

the twist? garnett led the league in rapm from 2003-2004, which is widely considered duncan's peak - this with a far worse roster and headcoaching, which goes back to what i've always said: you replace kg with duncan, and the spurs either have similar success or better because of garnett's pug-like style. other than being the more skilled player, kg also adapted quicker. unlike duncan, who for the most part is a system player - not that there's anything wrong with that.

just look at their olympic performances. duncan could not adapt to the european bigs who made him look rather average (much of this had to with not having popovich's coaching. he was NOT the HC during that tournament). otoh, kg out-skilled everyone in front of him.

after winning gold, without shaq, most considered kg the best player on team usa.

:applause:

[Jacks3]

lol @ singling out tony parker.

tp absolutely killed the lakers with his dribble penetration & playmaking. i remember charles barkley during one of the tnt broadcasts kept telling the lakers to knock him on his ass (srs). he carved up the lakers perimeter defense.

manu was steady all postseason with his skills & playmaking. bowen? aside from being the best perimeter defender maybe you could also point out why he didn't average over 20 a game? :oldlol: i swear you spurs fans are basketball illiterate. the game isn't measured by your raw numbers output. defense & various aspects of impact are not defined by raw stats.

would i be remiss to not point out david robinson's defense and rebounding, kerr's blistering 3PT shooting, stephen jackson's 3PT shooting and defense? popovich's coaching anybody?

i actually watched those teams then - they were stacked like pancakes.

:bowdown:

[nzahir]

False.
In their primes they are very close but I would take duncan because he was a better defender in the paint, but kg could guard the perimeter better. Another reason is that he won in the playoffs(even though he obviously had a better team). But duncan has had much better longevity and that helps his legacy over garnetts as well.

[Blue&Orange]

The Duncan hating needs to stop...

KG had a better team in Boston...then Duncan ever did...and could win ONLY 1 ring in 6 years of prime(2007-12).
in the east...

clueless and desperate Kobestans seeing their crush slide out of the top10

[DMAVS41]

Relative to the competition ? No they were stacked.

HCA advantage throughout.

Top 2 or 3 defensive center in league..

collection of young offensive perimeter talent w/ spread out double figure scoring in manu s jax and parker.

some shutdown perimeter defenders

Goat coach

For help against a worn down laker team coming off three straight rings.. a team minus theai best player in the WCF's..and a east team weaker tHan themselves on every front.

It cannot even be compared to hakeem run where he won every round without hca and agains healthy prime superstars. Or even dirk in 2011 where he did the same exact thing

Never has a 1 seed been so celebrated as a Cinderella team besides the 03 spurs


I already said it's a fair argument to talk about the competition and lucky breaks.

So I already agreed with that part of your post.

But you just can't call a team like the 03 Spurs stacked. You can call them well built and tough with great chemistry or something like that, but they weren't stacked.

And it's not liked they played shit competition like the Heat did at times. It wasn't that big of a cake walk.

A stacked team relative to their competition can play like ass and still win (like the Heat recently). The 03 Spurs didn't have that margin of error.

[K Xerxes]

As far as overall impact on the court, I think it's close. I think Garnett is the greater defender, but Duncan had more offensive firepower when it mattered. Equally, his intangibles, leadership and stability put him over the edge.

An argument can somewhat be made, but some of the anti-Duncan arguments on this thread are just pathetic. No surprise the majority are from butthurt Kobe fans that can't accept that Duncan is now comfortably > Kobe.

5/3/2 > 5/2/1 (+metastasis)

[AirFederer]

Who would you pick to start your franchise?
Duncan, and it's not even close.
Timmys bbiq is off the charts. We're talking a top 5-6-7 player here vs a top 40-100.

[Asukal]

Who would you pick to start your franchise?
Duncan, and it's not even close.
Timmys bbiq is off the charts. We're talking a top 5-6-7 player here vs a top 40-100.

Agree. It's not as simple as having the better team. :cheers:

[Eric Cartman]

Kg would've had similar success to Duncan in San Antonio.

[Odinn]

Kg would've had similar success to Duncan in San Antonio.
KG wouldn't pull something like that Duncan did in 2003. And I certainly don't see KG winning against 2005 Pistons frontcourt.
:confusedshrug:

[thefatmiral]

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=Di77ZrN03CE

young tim vs young kg. tim showed higher iq , better passing. kg played pretty good d on him.

[navy]

KG wouldn't pull something like that Duncan did in 2003. And I certainly don't see KG winning against 2005 Pistons frontcourt.
:confusedshrug:
Duncan was pretty ass in that seven game series to be honest.

[Odinn]

Duncan was pretty ass in that seven game series to be honest.
Not that I'm saying Duncan had a great series against the Pistons. But he was the only interior offensive power the Spurs had. His better scoring volume and better low-post game helped Spurs to win. You can watch back 3rd and 4th quarter of the game 7 and can understand my exact point. I don't see KG doing such a thing against the Pistons frontcourt.

[navy]

Not that I'm saying Duncan had a great series against the Pistons. But he was the only interior offensive power the Spurs had. His better scoring volume and better low-post game helped Spurs to win. You can watch back 3rd and 4th quarter of the game 7 and can understand my exact point. I don't see KG doing such a thing.
I dont know, manu was huge in that series. And Garnett might not have had the same problems that Duncan did.

Not saying Garnett is better than Duncan as Duncan has clearly done more for longer, just saying that isnt the series to argue the case.

[SCdac]

What is it about being a Kobe fanatic that means you have to denigrate Duncan? lmao .. some sad folks in here

[DMAVS41]

What is it about being a Kobe fanatic that means you have to denigrate Duncan? lmao .. some sad folks in here

Could say the same thing about Spurs/Duncan fans having to denigrate Mavs/Dirk...

But I agree with you.

[Purch]

Better question is if KG was better than Dirk..

[Ratnik]

Then Then Then Then Then Then Then Then Then Then Then Then Then Then Then Then Then Then Then

[DMAVS41]

Better question is if KG was better than Dirk..

Agreed.

My answer is no, but it's too close to even say one or the other in my opinion really. Too much unknown with it all.

Duncan should be known as better, but it's not a huge gap or anything either though.

Pretty much the case with all the power forwards in history...Duncan was the best.

After that...pretty much any order for Pettit, Dirk, KG, Barkley, and Malone is acceptable.

[SCdac]

Could say the same thing about Spurs/Duncan fans having to denigrate Mavs/Dirk...

But I agree with you.

Eh, it's on a whoooole other level of obsessiveness and insecurity with Kobe stans. Many Spurs fans have a real connection to Dallas, via family and friends, and it's a legit rivalry but we all know and respect each other at the end of the day. The criticism is borne out of that team-team rivalry, watching each other's teams closely and noticing the flaws of their players (ie. Ginobili is 'reckless', Dirk was 'soft', Bowen was 'dirty', etc, etc), whereas with Kobe fans.. it's almost personal to them, like Duncan is a threat to their savior or some shit :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Eh, it's on a whoooole other level of obsessiveness and insecurity with Kobe stans. Many Spurs fans have a real connection to Dallas, via family and friends, and it's a legit rivalry but we all know and respect each other at the end of the day. The criticism is borne out of that team-team rivalry, watching each other's teams closely and noticing the flaws of their players (ie. Ginobili is 'reckless', Dirk was 'soft', Bowen was 'dirty', etc, etc), whereas with Kobe fans.. it's almost personal to them, like Duncan is a threat to their savior or some shit :facepalm


Because he is.

You answer your own question.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

What is it about being a Kobe fanatic that means you have to denigrate Duncan? lmao .. some sad folks in here

Kobe fans can't stand that Duncan > Kobe.

[Pointguard]

Rasho:

That's a guy who played with both Garnett and Duncan, while you've never had any sort of encounter with either (you can judge their play on the court, but you have no idea what kind of leadership any player has).

Also, look at Steve Kerr's comparison of Duncan's and MJ's leadership tactics. You can really tell in his tone which one he thinks was better (again, this runs contrary to your post which says Duncan was never a great leader).

Also, go look at how every past teammate speaks of Tim. They also pretty much say he's the best teammate they've ever had and a great leader (for the third time, what they say on intangibles and locker-room stuff is the only thing we can use to judge good or bad leadership).

Rasho sucked without KG getting on him. Apparently he didn't like the getting on him. Rasho was considered a disappointment with Duncan which was when he was in his prime and relegated to more of a role player. KG had made Rasho look better than what he really was and got him that big SA contract. He definitely underachieved next to Duncan. Really have to take that statement with a grain of salt.

[bizil]

KG and Timmy both redefined the PF position AT THE SAME TIME! Timmy was a 7 footer who brought a dominant two way center skillset to the PF. BUT Timmy also had the new age PF skillset to go with it.

KG at 7'0 had point forward skills, was a freakish athlete, great defender, and great rebounder. Overall, I think KG is the most versatile PF of all time. At his best, u are talking 24 points, 14 rebounds, and six assists a night. Probably the only 7'0 who could come closest to playing and defending all five positions on the court

GOAT wise Timmy has the edge for sure. Peak wise, I would lean to Timmy too. The fact that's he a dominant center who HAPPENS to play PF gives him A SICK EDGE when u compare him to the other great PF's. It's almost to where Timmy needs to be compared to Wilt, Kareem, Dream, and Shaq more than he is to the other great PF's. But Timmy and Barkley are the ONLY PF's I would take over KG peak wise.

[Pointguard]

Not that I'm saying Duncan had a great series against the Pistons. But he was the only interior offensive power the Spurs had. His better scoring volume and better low-post game helped Spurs to win. You can watch back 3rd and 4th quarter of the game 7 and can understand my exact point. I don't see KG doing such a thing against the Pistons frontcourt.
KG was the better scorer that year, and KG killed Rasheed that year averaging like 25 and 13 to Rasheed's 7 and 2 over three games that year (one against Portland). Interior Offensive power wasn't the way to beat the Piston's - see Shaq the greatest interior offensive power game ever.

[Odinn]

Stay salty.

[rmt]

Could say the same thing about Spurs/Duncan fans having to denigrate Mavs/Dirk...

But I agree with you.

I dont see many Duncan fans denigrating Mavs/Dirk. TD is comfortably ahead of Dirk when considering the defensive end/rings. Mavs have always given Spurs trouble because theyre an excellent jumpshooting team (the contested 2 is what Pop likes to give up). Kobe stans otoh ....since Kobe is much closer to TD.

[mehyaM24]

i don't have a horse in this race, but duncan fans shit on kobe ad nauseum.

imo, kobe is the most overrated superstar of all time, but i hardly even talk about him. spurs, and especially duncan fans always bring him up.

[FireDavidKahn]

Overall careers? Nope.
Absolute prime? Yes.

If Timmy and Garnett switched places I have no doubt that San Antonio wouldn't be just as good. Garnett was more of a "victim" of circumstance. Trade KG for Timmy and the Spurs still win a bunch of titles.

[FireDavidKahn]

Garnett's 04 team was better than Duncan's 03 team.

Tell me why KG could only go as far as a WCF struggle whilst Duncan took them to the championship?
Serious? In the WCF so many people got injured (including Sam Cassell) that KG had to play point. With Sprewell as your second best player, you aint winning against Shaq and Kobe:facepalm

If Sam Cassell never got injured it is probable that the Wolves win the championship that year.

Over the entire course of the season and on paper, the Wolves probably were the better team, but having your second best player crippled for the entire series and having Garnett playing PG is why we lost. You think Duncan would have led them to a championship if Parker got injured and Duncan had to play point?:facepalm

[T_L_P]

You think Duncan would have led them to a championship if Parker got injured and Duncan had to play point?:facepalm

03 Spurs with Tony on the court (813 mins): +1.2

03 Spurs with Tony off the court (354 min): +18.2 :biggums:

If Parker got injured the Spurs win in less games than they needed. Duncan was already the main playmaker on the team (though he didn't bring the ball up or anything).

[FireDavidKahn]

03 Spurs with Tony on the court (813 mins): +1.2

03 Spurs with Tony off the court (354 min): +18.2 :biggums:

If Parker got injured the Spurs win in less games than they needed. Duncan was already the main playmaker on the team (though he didn't bring the ball up or anything).
Answer the question. If Duncan had to play PG, would he had lead them to a championship. Or maybe a better comp since Duncan was always a low post player and Garnett was more perimeter based would be if Duncan was forced to play SF and his second best player was essentially out the entire series?

[T_L_P]

Answer the question. If Duncan had to play PG, would he had lead them to a championship. Or maybe a better comp since Duncan was always a low post player and Garnett was more perimeter based would be if Duncan was forced to play SF and his second best player was essentially out the entire series?

No, because he doesn't play PG or SF.

The only way the early 2k Spurs were gonna come close to winning a championship was with a dominant, low-post scoring big who could also protect the rim at a historic rate.

Garnett had much better guard tendencies and he was more versatile. Tim focused on one area, the most important area, the one where Garnett shied away from, and took his team to the promised land.

That said, my post was addressing the question of "could the Spurs win in 03 without Parker?" The answer is a big yes.

I never said Garnett should have been able to win without Cassell in 04. :confusedshrug:

[Draz]

Duncan
Dirk
Garnett

Let's be honest.
This

[kshutts1]

I'm one of the biggest defenders of "if KG and Duncan switched places, results would be the same".

I still feel that way. Results would be had in different ways, but KG would be the one with tons of titles, and Duncan would be the insanely talented, but ultimately less (team) successful player.

For some insane reason, the vast majority of sports fans only care about the end result. They rarely care about how/why it came to be. We're endlessly fascinated with clutch moments, game-winning shots, wins, playoff wins, championships.

Oddly enough, we care very little that...
Clutch moments and game-winning shots can only be had if the team, as a whole, didn't take care of business earlier.
Wins, playoff wins, and championships are all team accomplishments. One individual can have a huge impact, but in the end, even Jordan and Kareem and Russell and Magic and Bird and Shaq and Wilt needed a fabulous roster plus a great coach to win anything of significance.

I need to consider circumstance when ranking players. Once circumstances are considered and weighed, along with abilities and talents, I can't rank KG or Duncan higher. They're on the same tier. Different players, yet a very similar impact.

[kshutts1]

One thing to consider about KG... I'm 99% sure that he once lead his team in points, rebounds assists, steals and blocks, all in the same season.

How many players have ever done that over the course of their career (points one year, rebounds maybe a different year, etc), much less the same season?
How many players had the ability to do that, much less actually did that?

Naturally, the same circumstances come in to play here... KG was playing on a relatively low-talent team, and had to shoulder a lot of the burden. But that doesn't make him any less of a player, any less of a talent.

I'm no basketball historian, and I may be WAY off, but I'm 99% sure KG did lead his team in all those categories in the same season. And I'm about 75% sure Pippen did once. And I'm maybe 50% sure Wade did. This is all in the same season, mind you.

This is not to say that these players are more talented, or better, or greater than Duncan. Just showing how ridiculous a player KG was. And how he, more than perhaps any player in the past forty years, suffers in historical ranking from the "championship or bust" crowd. His only competition would be Karl or Barkley, as far as I can tell. Hell, even Dream is regularly ranked above KG, sole reason being he led his historically un-talented team to the title in two straight years. Never mind the circumstances of that.

[west_tip]

One thing to consider about KG... I'm 99% sure that he once lead his team in points, rebounds assists, steals and blocks, all in the same season.

How many players have ever done that over the course of their career (points one year, rebounds maybe a different year, etc), much less the same season?
How many players had the ability to do that, much less actually did that?

Naturally, the same circumstances come in to play here... KG was playing on a relatively low-talent team, and had to shoulder a lot of the burden. But that doesn't make him any less of a player, any less of a talent.

I'm no basketball historian, and I may be WAY off, but I'm 99% sure KG did lead his team in all those categories in the same season. And I'm about 75% sure Pippen did once. And I'm maybe 50% sure Wade did. This is all in the same season, mind you.

This is not to say that these players are more talented, or better, or greater than Duncan. Just showing how ridiculous a player KG was. And how he, more than perhaps any player in the past forty years, suffers in historical ranking from the "championship or bust" crowd. His only competition would be Karl or Barkley, as far as I can tell. Hell, even Dream is regularly ranked above KG, sole reason being he led his historically un-talented team to the title in two straight years. Never mind the circumstances of that.

I think that David Robinson might have led his team in all major statistical categories in a season in the mid 90's but I cannot say that with complete assurance.

[kshutts1]

I think that David Robinson might have led his team in all major statistical categories in a season in the mid 90's but I cannot say that with complete assurance.
I didn't consider him as an assist leader, particularly since he played with some decent PGs. You may be right, though. Just as likely as Wade.

Point still stands as it pertains to KG. Uniquely talented, and not just Tim Thomas decent-but-not-great at everything, but elite in all facets.

[T_L_P]

One thing to consider about KG... I'm 99% sure that he once lead his team in points, rebounds assists, steals and blocks, all in the same season.

How many players have ever done that over the course of their career (points one year, rebounds maybe a different year, etc), much less the same season?
How many players had the ability to do that, much less actually did that?

Naturally, the same circumstances come in to play here... KG was playing on a relatively low-talent team, and had to shoulder a lot of the burden. But that doesn't make him any less of a player, any less of a talent.

I'm no basketball historian, and I may be WAY off, but I'm 99% sure KG did lead his team in all those categories in the same season. And I'm about 75% sure Pippen did once. And I'm maybe 50% sure Wade did. This is all in the same season, mind you.

This is not to say that these players are more talented, or better, or greater than Duncan. Just showing how ridiculous a player KG was. And how he, more than perhaps any player in the past forty years, suffers in historical ranking from the "championship or bust" crowd. His only competition would be Karl or Barkley, as far as I can tell. Hell, even Dream is regularly ranked above KG, sole reason being he led his historically un-talented team to the title in two straight years. Never mind the circumstances of that.

He didn't lead in Assists in 04, and he didn't lead in Blocks in 05.

Will check the other years later when I have the chance.

[J Shuttlesworth]

While I do think Garnett could have great success playing with the Spurs his whole career (maybe even 5 rings worth like Timmy), I don't think that makes KG a better player.

Duncan is just simply a notch above KG, probably because of his fundamental skills. His bank shots were always money back in the day. Loved watching prime Timmy.

It's not a huge gap though IMO.

[Pointguard]

He didn't lead in Assists in 04, and he didn't lead in Blocks in 05.

Will check the other years later when I have the chance.
He did it in '03.

[kshutts1]

While I do think Garnett could have great success playing with the Spurs his whole career (maybe even 5 rings worth like Timmy), I don't think that makes KG a better player.

Duncan is just simply a notch above KG, probably because of his fundamental skills. His bank shots were always money back in the day. Loved watching prime Timmy.

It's not a huge gap though IMO.
I'll never argue for KG being better. Same tier. Just different players.

[bizil]

The clear distinction between the two is GOAT status. Timmy's rings put him into the top 10 GOAT. But peak wise, I think both are on the same level. It comes down to a matter of taste or what a team needs.

Other than low post-paint facets, KG is just as good or better than Duncan at everything. But on the flip side, a dominant two way center historically is the most valuable kind of player in basketball. Even though Timmy's a PF, I always considered him a great center who plays the PF. His size and skillset is more comparable to a Wilt, Dream, Kareem, Ewing, Robinson, etc.

[FireDavidKahn]

No, because he doesn't play PG or SF.

The only way the early 2k Spurs were gonna come close to winning a championship was with a dominant, low-post scoring big who could also protect the rim at a historic rate.

Garnett had much better guard tendencies and he was more versatile. Tim focused on one area, the most important area, the one where Garnett shied away from, and took his team to the promised land.

That said, my post was addressing the question of "could the Spurs win in 03 without Parker?" The answer is a big yes.

I never said Garnett should have been able to win without Cassell in 04. :confusedshrug:KG wasn't a PG. He was forced to play out of position...That's that I'm getting at. KG was a PF. If Cassell hadn't been a cripple that series then we would have likely gone to the Finals.

[FireDavidKahn]

The clear distinction between the two is GOAT status. Timmy's rings put him into the top 10 GOAT. But peak wise, I think both are on the same level. It comes down to a matter of taste or what a team needs.

Other than low post-paint facets, KG is just as good or better than Duncan at everything. But on the flip side, a dominant two way center historically is the most valuable kind of player in basketball. Even though Timmy's a PF, I always considered him a great center who plays the PF. His size and skillset is more comparable to a Wilt, Dream, Kareem, Ewing, Robinson, etc.
No argument here. Rings matter. Duncan is has accomplished so much more and he should be recognized for it. But that doesn't mean that the peak's of their career weren't equal. Peak KG (different than prime) during the 2003-04 was one of the most dominant players ever.

[dubeta]

Theres many players who were better than Duncan, this is nothing new.

Every season theres about 4-5 players better than Duncans peak, too bad none of them received the rare mix of elite coaching, team chemistry, and frontoffice that Duncan has been blessed with.

[warriorfan]

Theres many players who were better than Duncan, this is nothing new.

Every season theres about 4-5 players better than Duncans peak, too bad none of them received the rare mix of elite coaching, team chemistry, and frontoffice that Duncan has been blessed with.


He's posted a +21 PER for 18 years in a row. :oldlol:

[dubeta]

He's posted a +21 PER for 18 years in a row. :oldlol:

OKay? hes been a consistent, above-average player. Good for him.

[tamaraw08]

I can't think of 10 players I'd draft before Garnett, but no, he's not better than Duncan.

And your statement that he does everything better than Duncan is just laughable. Duncan's entire style of play was simply much more effective than the brand of basketball Garnett liked to play.

Prime Garnett (00-08) shot .523 TS% in the Playoffs, mostly on post-fadeaways and jumpers. How many teams have ever won championships with their alpha dog shooting that poorly?
Prime Duncan (98-07) shot .560 TS% in the Playoffs, mostly on low-post isolation plays. Low-post play draws more double teams and it allows you to see the floor better.

And before you chalk it up to teammates, Garnett was being assisted on 60% of his baskets (a lot of catch-and-shoots) while Duncan was assisted on a mere 47% of his (like I said, isolation plays with no help from his "stacked" team).

Garnett may very well be the better defensive player (though I don't think that's true for the Playoffs, plus I prefer a traditional defensive anchor to one who floats around on the perimeter), but Duncan is/was much more effective on offense, especially in the postseason (when he stepped up, unlike Garnett).

Not to mention Duncan brings all the intangibles. He doesn't fight with teammates and he's an actual leader (Rasho played with both of them and he said Tim is the better leader).

Lastly, here is the 97-14 RAPM, which covers both of their careers (except Garnett's rookie season, which is probably a good thing for him)

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

Duncan is #2 with a 5.09
Garnett is #5 with a 4.75

Great research. Impressive. :rockon: :bowdown:
One only has to look at thier bread and butter moves,
The techniques they used to score and I whole heartedly agree that KG has pretty limited low post moves that I actually think Pau Gasol and Brook Lopez have more repertoire than the subject.

[tpols]

Great research. Impressive. :rockon: :bowdown:
One only has to look at thier bread and butter moves,
The techniques they used to score and I whole heartedly agree that KG has pretty limited low post moves that I actually think Pau Gasol and Brook Lopez have more repertoire than the subject.

Duncan isn't much better than pau offensively tbh.. I think paus even craftier down low actually and a better passer. Duncan kills him in defense rebounding and heart obviously. But offense duncan was like a 2.0 rapm from '00 to '14. Was nothing special or great compared to guys like pau or garnett.. for goat PFs on offense it be something like

Dirk = Barkley > Malone > McHale > Duncan = garnett

[warriorfan]

OKay? hes been a consistent, above-average player. Good for him.




:lol can someone ban this guy?

[DMAVS41]

Duncan isn't much better than pau offensively tbh.. I think paus even craftier down low actually and a better passer. Duncan kills him in defense rebounding and heart obviously. But offense duncan was like a 2.0 rapm from '00 to '14. Was nothing special or great compared to guys like pau or garnett.. for goat PFs on offense it be something like

Dirk = Barkley > Malone > McHale > Duncan = garnett

I Personally think McHale was better offensively than Malone, but the rest I pretty much agree with.

Still laughing my ass off about SCdac calling Duncan a transcendent offensive player.

:facepalm