The advanced defensive tactics of today would limit past bigs

[jongib369]

Sorry, but after watching these highlights closely I can't see an instance where guys like Kareem, Wilt, Reed, Bellamy etc could even get a shot off with their offensive skill set. Fact: They'd have to spend months adjusting their games. Watch how the elite bigs, or anyone who does a post move for that matter today gets swarmed below. Fact: guys who know how to score in the post today have to put up with tactics unlike the NBA has seen before. You nostalgia wankers can't say with a straight face they'd thrive as is :no:

NBA Post Move Highlights HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcULJMJFuNs



Al Jefferson Full Highlights vs Hawks (2014.11.07)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPhwzRq_-Mk


Al Jefferson (3/27/2015)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U89fIFLBVb8

LaMarcus Aldridge vs Tim Duncan (2014.12.19)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0zu4PIclm0

Tim Duncan Full Highlights at Clippers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gN65GuyrRY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTmRMg84PPk

[3ball]

We can statistically prove that post scoring is easier in today's game - all we have to do is look at the post-up efficiencies of today's weaker bigs to estimate how the superior bigs of previous eras would do.. Al Jefferson and others currently lead the NBA (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP&CF=Poss*GE*200) in points per possession (PPP) on the post, and they're all at the universally-recognized standard for elite efficiency of 1.00 PPP.

But if this were 1996, Jefferson, Lopez, and Valcunious (who lead today's game in post efficiency) would be no higher than 11th, behind Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Alonzo, Sabonis, Karl Malone, Barkley, Webber, and Kemp.

This elite post efficiency from 2nd tier bigs flat-out proves today's defensive environment hasn't diminished post efficiencies... The only reason coaches don't use post-ups as much as before is because floor-spacing and the hand-check ban increased efficiencies on ball movement and dribble penetration, allowing these methods to SURPASS post-ups.. But Al Jefferson and other 2nd-tier bigs scoring 1.00 PPP on the post proves that post efficiencies THEMSELVES haven't diminished at all.

Also, if we are keeping it real, simple logic tells us that today's spacing and defensive 3 seconds rule force defenders to help from further distances on post players.. So even without the Al Jefferson proof, it makes sense that post PPP is higher today than it used to be.. After all, everything else (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) is.
.

[jongib369]

We can statistically prove that post scoring is easier in today's game - all we have to do is look at the post-up efficiencies of today's weaker bigs to estimate how the superior bigs of previous eras would do.. Al Jefferson and others currently lead the NBA (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP&CF=Poss*GE*200) in points per possession (PPP) on the post, and they're all at the universally-recognized standard for elite efficiency of 1.00 PPP.

But if this were 1996, Jefferson, Lopez, and Valcunious (who lead today's game in post efficiency) would be no higher than 11th, behind Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Alonzo, Sabonis, Karl Malone, Barkley, Webber, and Kemp.

This elite post efficiency from 2nd tier bigs flat-out proves today's defensive environment hasn't diminished post efficiencies... The only reason coaches don't use post-ups as much as before is because floor-spacing and the hand-check ban increased efficiencies on ball movement and dribble penetration, allowing these methods to SURPASS post-ups.. But Al Jefferson and other 2nd-tier bigs scoring 1.00 PPP on the post proves that post efficiencies THEMSELVES haven't diminished at all.

Also, if we are keeping it real, simple logic tells us that today's spacing and defensive 3 seconds rule force defenders to help from further distances on post players.. So even without the Al Jefferson proof, it makes sense that post PPP is higher today than it used to be.. After all, everything else (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) is.
.
What kind of numbers do you see those bigs I mentioned getting today?

Don't agree with everything you say, but I'd really like to see you breakdown older games the way you do. If I'm not mistaken, handchecking wasn't the same in the 80s as it was in the 60s and 70's even.

[Kblaze8855]

Sorry, but after watching these highlights closely I can't see an instance where guys like Kareem, Wilt, Reed, Bellamy etc could even get a shot off with their offensive skill set.

Perkins gets shots off in the post. Bismack Biyombo gets shots off in the post. But you cant even conceive of Kareem getting a shot off in the post....

I wanted to take this as a joke but I dont think it is...which is...sad.

[3ball]

What kind of numbers do you see those bigs I mentioned getting today?

Don't agree with everything you say, but I'd really like to see you breakdown older games the way you do. If I'm not mistaken, handchecking wasn't the same in the 80s as it was in the 60s and 70's even.


All I know is the facts: Al Jefferson, Valcunious, and other weaker bigs from today lead the league in post efficiency, and they are all at the universally-recognized standard for elite efficiency of 1.00 points-per-possession (PPP).

Accordingly, if we are looking at say, 1996, I'm quite certain that Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Alonzo, Sabonis, Karl Malone, Barkley, Webber, and Kemp would ALL do better than Al Jefferson and the like - the 1996 guys would bump Valucunios and Jefferson down from the top to no better than #11 (behind Kemp).

So to put a numerical number on it - if today's bigs get 1.00 PPP, the aforementioned previous era bigs would get 1.25 PPP, maybe more.

Btw, when I said earlier that the NBA changed the rules to increase the efficiencies on dribble-penetration and ball movement - this is a fact - the NBA's official statements on the issue prove that penetration occurs more than before.. The NBA officially stated (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) the rule changes were meant to increase penetration and had succeeded in doing so - again, this is from the source and creator of the new rules, so it cannot be subjective opinion, similar to how Warren Buffet's vision for Berkshire Hathaway is not subjective opinion.. Penetration is easier today and occurs more often than before - it's a fact.
.

[Rose'sACL]

Perkins gets shots off in the post. Bismack Biyombo gets shots off in the post. But you cant even conceive of Kareem getting a shot off in the post....

I wanted to take this as a joke but I dont think it is...which is...sad.
OP is retarded. just like 3ball.

[jongib369]

Perkins gets shots off in the post. Bismack Biyombo gets shots off in the post. But you cant even conceive of Kareem getting a shot off in the post....

I wanted to take this as a joke but I dont think it is...which is...sad.
No worries man, I was being sarcastic. I think all those guys would dominate today...Almost more so with the spacing in the videos above.

In cavs video "Why the Dunk was outlawed" someone said no one does the hook because it simply couldn't be done with today's defences....Seemed serious also....starting to think a lot of people simply can't comprehend what's going on

[LAZERUSS]

Demarcus Cousins does the bulk of his damage in the post, and he is averaging 24 ppg in 34 mpg.

[Kblaze8855]

I assumed it was a joke at first because I didnt right away connect you with any idiocy on that level. And people rarely go from normal to that bad. If its sarcasm....

Ok then....moving on.

[LAZERUSS]

A shell-of-his-former-self Shaq put up a 45 point game in 2009.

He wasn't doing it with 15 ft jump shots, either.

[jongib369]

"The sky hook doesn't really work today because the lane is so congested with guys dropping down if you try to do the 1-dribble move which was the key to Kareem's sky hook, you get 3 midgets swarming on you trying to bat the ball out of your hands. As soon as a big center puts the ball on the floor he is swarmed."

That's why I made this sarcastic post.

It's painfully obvious that essentially the opposite is true :lol

[LAZERUSS]

Dwight Howard, with his limited range, had a 23 ppg .593 season, in 37 mpg, as recently as 2011.

[jongib369]

A shell-of-his-former-self Shaq put up a 45 point game in 2009.

He wasn't doing it with 15 ft jump shots, either.
That was the last youtube link I posted in the op.

:cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

No worries man, I was being sarcastic. I think all those guys would dominate today...Almost more so with the spacing in the videos above.

In cavs video "Why the Dunk was outlawed" someone said no one does the hook because it simply couldn't be done with today's defences....Seemed serious also....starting to think a lot of people simply can't comprehend what's going on

Sorry.

My bad.

[LAZERUSS]

That was the last youtube link I posted in the op.

:cheers:

My first assumption was that someone had hacked your account.

:cheers:

[3ball]

OP is retarded. just like 3ball.


:confusedshrug:

Together we proved that post scoring is easier today than before - guys like Al Jefferson, Lopez and Valcunious lead the NBA (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP&CF=Poss*GE*200) in post efficiency at the elite rate of 1.00 PPP...

Accordingly, we know that in say, 1996, at least 11 bigs would do better, including: Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Alonzo, Sabonis, Karl Malone, Barkley, Webber, and Kemp.

so it's intuitive... and proven by the stats.

[jongib369]

My first assumption was that someone had hacked your account.

:cheers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0KNhaDDKCY

Think I was a little too believable like GOB

[jongib369]

:confusedshrug:

Together we proved that post scoring is easier today than before - guys like Al Jefferson, Lopez and Valcunious lead the league in post efficiency at the elite rate of 1.00 PPP...

Accordingly, we know that in say, 1996, at least 11 bigs would do better, including: Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Alonzo, Sabonis, Karl Malone, Barkley, Webber, and Kemp.

so it's intuitive... and proven by the stats.
I think he agrees with us, but like I just said to LAZERUSS I was a tad too believable haha

[LAZERUSS]

:confusedshrug:

Together we proved that post scoring is easier today than before - guys like Al Jefferson, Lopez and Valcunious lead the league in post efficiency at the elite rate of 1.00 PPP...

Accordingly, we know that in say, 1996, at least 11 bigs would do better, including: Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Alonzo, Sabonis, Karl Malone, Barkley, Webber, and Kemp.

so it's intuitive... and proven by the stats.

Very few here provide the research that you do to back up your opinions. I may not always agree with every one of them, but I really respect you as a poster.

The vast majority of posters on this forum lack knowledge and intelligence, but they don't lack for opinions.

:cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0KNhaDDKCY

Think I was a little too believable like GOB


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[jongib369]

I assumed it was a joke at first because I didnt right away connect you with any idiocy on that level. And people rarely go from normal to that bad. If its sarcasm....

Ok then....moving on.

No worries, haven't gone off the deep end just yet :cheers:

Would you agree with my assumption that if their points wouldn't be higher, their fg% would Be considerably?

A lot of people seem to have the opinion that bigs couldn't shoot then...Then I see guys like Bellamy, and Reed light it up from midrange :biggums:

Maybe none of the serious posters/fans think what I said in the OP, or the statement above....But it sure seems like it sometimes

[andgar923]

No worries man, I was being sarcastic. I think all those guys would dominate today...Almost more so with the spacing in the videos above.

In cavs video "Why the Dunk was outlawed" someone said no one does the hook because it simply couldn't be done with today's defences....Seemed serious also....starting to think a lot of people simply can't comprehend what's going on
I thought it simply had to be, judging by the first 30 seconds on the first clip.

But you never know these days. :cheers:

[jongib369]

I thought it simply had to be, judging by the first 30 seconds on the first clip.

But you never know these days. :cheers:
Yeah watching Duncan go to work leaves little doubt as to how Wilt would do today...Who plays Vaguely similar. Wilt reminds me of Duncan but in Shaq's body if he was a Cardio freak. Their Fade away bankshot is a pleasure to watch

Let alone this nonsense I'm seeing about Kareem not being able to do his hook shot as well today :facepalm

Imagine either of those two on the Warriors with their passing...

[Micku]

Yeah watching Duncan go to work leaves little doubt as to how Wilt would do today...Who plays Vaguely similar. Wilt reminds me of Duncan but in Shaq's body if he was a Cardio freak. Their Fade away bankshot is a pleasure to watch

Let alone this nonsense I'm seeing about Kareem not being able to do his hook shot as well today :facepalm

Imagine either of those two on the Warriors with their passing...

Kareem also got a nice fadeaway. He was very versatile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayAz8EpuNUM

[jongib369]

Kareem also got a nice fadeaway. He was very versatile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayAz8EpuNUM
He'd eat up the league today...Hell, Gilmore would be a MONSTER with the spacing Im seeing

[jongib369]

Kareem also got a nice fadeaway. He was very versatile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayAz8EpuNUM
https://youtu.be/i1xqwh7PE4I

[Akhenaten]

It's basketball, there is no "advanced" defensive tactics, it's not quantum physics. What today's defenses have is freedom. They are ALLOWED to be much more dynamic than in the past. Being allowed to double off the ball and being allowed to play "in between" committing to helping or staying home enables the defense to much easily and greatly impact spacing, rhythm and time.

So that it is much easier for defenders to help and recover, rotations are much shorter because the help can come from a shorter distance. 1 on 1 defense is harder to play but team defense is much easier, and I'm certain EVERYONE would agree that team > individual.

Certainly it's easier to affect a team's offensive efficiency as is evident in the numbers (speaking specifically about offensive efficiency in the 80's and 90's vs today) however that is not the where the biggest impact is made.

The biggest impact is on time and opportunity. It takes more time to get open shots and more time to get the ball to your most proficient offensive player. The effect is exponentially
more pronounced for offensive player's who rely on low post play to be dominant scorers.

Because the defender is allowed to play freely between ball and man, the defender is allowed to sag all the way back to the post player to discourage the entry pass and still be able to recover. On top of that weakside defenders can also sink down and play defense on a post player who doesn't even have the ball.

So the angles for the entry pass are more acute, so a post player has to start his offense one or two more steps farther than where is is most effective. Added to this if he does get the ball he has less time to operate.

So, previously his avg catching point would be say 3-6 ft from thee basket, now its 6-9 ft. Where he had an average of 10-14 seconds to go to work, now he has 8-11 secs. So the amount of opportunities inarguably decrease in this era, the amount of FGA inarguably decrease also, markedly decrease at that.

You would literally have to FORCE feed a low postplayer every possession for him to avg 20 FGA. Just being able to get the ball in his hands to begin with is MUCH more difficult.

This is why ppp is irrelevant, cause bigs these days much more seldomly touch the ball in positions where they can attack.

80's/90's = 50 touches, 20 FGA on avg
00's-??= 25 touches, 10 FGA

then when an offensive player DOES get the ball in prime position with time to work, the much more dynamic and amorphous help defense makes READS much more difficult. Is a guy helping is he staying? do i dropstep baseline or go middle? Do I pass to back to the entry passer or skip it across the court because the defense it tilted to my side.


Many more decisions to make, far less time to make them. I dont see how ANYONE disagrees with this, this is fundamental FACTS.


.

[jongib369]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Whether 60s/70's centers played today, or the bigs from today back then how would you rank the top 5 for each if they all played together?

If you think the rule differences might change someones positioning in either direction say so ...Fir instance I could actually see Reed doing a lot more damage with todays relaxed dribbling rules

[keep-itreal]

yup you're right OP. Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing would all be bench players in today's league:rolleyes:

[Prime_Shaq]

Shaq would dominate in any era

[jongib369]

Shaq would dominate in any era
No doubt. He'd have to play totally different in the 60's/70's though. He'd play in the style of Wilt/Gilmore IMO

[Prime_Shaq]

No doubt. He'd have to play totally different in the 60's/70's though. He'd play in the style of Wilt/Gilmore IMO
Would be no problem, he actually has an underrated basketball mind. How he adapted his game as he exited his prime is a testament to that.

[RightToCensor]

Top 5 Centers in PER:

Hassan Whiteside- rim protector, lob target
Demarcus Cousins- low post scorer, rim protector
Brook Lopez- low post scorer
Nikola Vucevic- low post scorer
Rudy Gobert- rim protector, lob target

BOLDED are the players in the playoffs.

The NBA has grown to not need a dominate low post target to command doubles or get an easy two points. Shaq would be great, but I doubt he'd win as much as he did. You rely more on shooting and passing than paint scoring in today's league.

[jongib369]

Would be no problem, he actually has an underrated basketball mind. How he adapted his game as he exited his prime is a testament to that.
He does, and his footwork was incredible at that size. Took advantage of plowing people during his era, but not being able to do that in earlier ones wouldn't hurt him as much as some would think.

[Chadwin]

when surrounded by 3 point threats the illegal D vs current era crap is irrelevant

[Prime_Shaq]

Top 5 Centers in PER:

Hassan Whiteside- rim protector, lob target
Demarcus Cousins- low post scorer, rim protector
Brook Lopez- low post scorer
Nikola Vucevic- low post scorer
Rudy Gobert- rim protector, lob target

BOLDED are the players in the playoffs.

The NBA has grown to not need a dominate low post target to command doubles or get an easy two points. Shaq would be great, but I doubt he'd win as much as he did. You rely more on shooting and passing than paint scoring in today's league.
Shaq's passing is severely underrated. In this era he would score less that I agree but you can still use him as a focal point on offense and surround him with shooters ala 2009 Magic so I don't think it would amount to any less wins.

[HurricaneKid]

the universally-recognized standard for elite efficiency of 1.00 points-per-possession (PPP).


Good god. Can't you understand that only a few players are at that level and that level is miles below league scoring avgs?

Thats why there are no good post players any more, because its an inefficient play.

[SugarHill]

yup you're right OP. Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing would all be bench players in today's league:rolleyes:
OP was joking

[3ball]

Can't you understand that only a few players are at that level (of elite 1.00 PPP post efficiency)


You are missing the point - the players in today's game that ARE at that level are worse than at least 10 bigs from 1996:

Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Alonzo, Sabonis, Karl Malone, Barkley, Webber, and Kemp.

So all these guys would be leading today's league in post efficiency - therefore, there wouldn't just be a handful of guys at that the 1.00 PPP level, there would be a ton at that level - with better post players (i.e. more guys like Jahil Okafor), post play would be a more relevant factor.

But look, I agree with you - post plays are less efficient than ball movement or dribble-penetration.. But that's only because the NBA changed the rules to increase the efficiencies on those types of plays - the NBA has officially stated this (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html).. Certainly, in the absence of these changes, post play would still be the best option.

[jongib369]

You are missing the point - the players in today's game that ARE at that level are worse than at least 10 bigs from 1996:

Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Alonzo, Sabonis, Karl Malone, Barkley, Webber, and Kemp.

So all these guys would be leading today's league in post efficiency - therefore, there wouldn't just be a handful of guys at that the 1.00 PPP level, there would be a ton at that level - with better post players (i.e. more guys like Jahil Okafor), post play would be a more relevant factor.

But look, I agree with you - post plays are less efficient than ball movement or dribble-penetration.. But that's only because the NBA changed the rules to increase the efficiencies on those types of plays - the NBA has officially stated this (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html).. Certainly, in the absence of these changes, post play would still be the best option.

Doesn't that depend on who exactly is working the post? Maybe I'm missing something here, but even today If I had a Kareem, Wilt, Shaq etc I'd run my offense through them vaguley similar to what the Bulls did with Noah. If the perimeter has opened up that much, using those GOAT bigs would just make them thst much more deadly...and in return make the perimeter players even more efficient....More so than what we can get out of Cousins, Jefferson etc.

[3ball]

Doesn't that depend on who exactly is working the post? Maybe I'm missing something here, but even today If I had a Kareem, Wilt, Shaq etc I'd run my offense through them similar to what the Bulls did with Noah. If the perimeter has opened up that much, using those GOAT bigs would just make them thst much more deadly...and in return make the perimeter players even more efficient....More so than what we can get out of Cousins, Jefferson etc.


you're right - kareem or any good big from previous eras would have higher post efficiencies than today's bigs, so in those cases, posting would indeed be comparable/superior to penetration or ball movement.

but in previous eras, posting wasn't only a better play for great bigs with high post efficiency.. posting was a better play for a wider range of lesser players too - posting was simply a better option overall because the lack of spacing and higher physicality made penetration and ball movement not as effective as they are today.

the NBA has made official statements (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) stating they changed the rules to improve penetration and ball movement, and that the rules had succeeded in doing so - this cannot be subjective opinion, because it comes straight from the NBA, who is the source, creator, and implementer of the rules - similar to how Warren Buffet's vision for Berkshire Hathaway could never be considered subjective opinion.

[CavaliersFTW]

OP's hitting everyone with sarcasm :lol

He's being sarcastic but I think he's reacting to people who aren't sarcastic. I once had a guy comment on my Wilt vs Kareem YouTube channel that players (namely Wilt and Kareem) didn't know what fronting the post was, and that press defense and traps would neutralize all the ball handlers back then like pressing and trapping and fronting the post were some sort of new basketball development yet to have been seen in the 60's and 70's. There was a guy on ISH a year or two ago that said pump faking didn't exist in the 60's. I think he was trolling since that example happened on ISH, but there are people who believe certain extremely basic principals of basketball did not exist as recently as 40 and 50 years ago among professional basketball players.

All sorts of wild claims get thrown around.

[LAZERUSS]

OP's hitting everyone with sarcasm :lol

He's being sarcastic but I think he's reacting to people who aren't sarcastic. I once had a guy comment on my Wilt vs Kareem YouTube channel that players (namely Wilt and Kareem) didn't know what fronting the post was, and that press defense and traps would neutralize all the ball handlers back then like pressing and trapping and fronting the post were some sort of new basketball development yet to have been seen in the 60's and 70's. There was a guy on ISH a year or two ago that said pump faking didn't exist in the 60's. I think he was trolling since that example happened on ISH, but there are people who believe certain extremely basic principals of basketball did not exist as recently as 40 and 50 years ago among professional basketball players.

All sorts of wild claims get thrown around.

Michael Jordan invented the dribble, the jump shot, and the dunk. None of those existed before the mid-80's.

[LAZERUSS]

Most people probably aren't aware of this...but when Naismith invented the game...the ball and the basket did not exist at the time.

They were added to his game in the 70's.

[swagga]

Doesn't that depend on who exactly is working the post? Maybe I'm missing something here, but even today If I had a Kareem, Wilt, Shaq etc I'd run my offense through them vaguley similar to what the Bulls did with Noah. If the perimeter has opened up that much, using those GOAT bigs would just make them thst much more deadly...and in return make the perimeter players even more efficient....More so than what we can get out of Cousins, Jefferson etc.

first, although 3ball is an euroleague level troll, he has a point with the rule differences.

these days you can run your offense through your big 1st option like this:
- you are tanking and don't give a shit about offense and let your skilled but bad ballhandler and ballhog big to shoot anytime he wants (al jefferson)
- the big is skilled, has a decent J and he is good at handling the ball, so he can be used in the majority of the plays (cousins, davis, gasols, duncan, noah just for passing)
- you go orlando magic shooters with a prime dwight howard level talent (and probably lose in the PO to solid team like '10 celtics or lakers). This strategy also fails if you meet a team with sufficient penetration to put said talented big in foul trouble, or a team with a proper post defender.... so, as in real life, it would be very risky.

So to answer your original question: shaq, hakeem, kareem, ewing would all do good because they are all very skilled (besides being athletic monsters), but would need decent passing teams to properly use their offense as good low post position isn't easy to get today as a 1st option and charges are called at an all time high.

I haven't seen too much of walton so don't know.

McAdoo would do ok on a tanking team, he had serious range and skill but was a ball hog (imo, seen only on tape and he was old on the lakers)

wilt might work with '09 orlando like team, but he'd do nothing more than deandre jordan offensively without this perfect setup. Even with this he wasn't very efficient on high volume and because he is the GOAT choker the team is basically guaranteed to never win a ring with the described setup.
wilt would never work in noah's role, he can't pass nor can he play perimeter, nor can he shoot if open.

bill russell would be like a ben wallace. Don't know about defending the perimeter and all the other tricks but he seemed to be smart so i'll give him the benefit of doubt. Russell would need a floor spacing 4, otherwise it would get crowded fast.

I don't pay attention to other older bigs, as that era was trash. Simply can't watch a game no matter how much I try, the amount of dumb shit, unskilled play and ridiculous simplicity makes it look like a 50s comedy.

Even with all these bigs playing they'd get less shots these days, as the defense rotations are fast these days.... that's why you get so many pass-pass-pass-pass-pass 3s or the iso after a failed play.

[swagga]

Most people probably aren't aware of this...but when Naismith invented the game...the ball and the basket did not exist at the time.

They were added to his game in the 70's.

Then in which sport did wilt brick all these freethrows? :lol

[CavaliersFTW]

first, although 3ball is an euroleague level troll, he has a point with the rule differences.

these days you can run your offense through your big 1st option like this:
- you are tanking and don't give a shit about offense and let your skilled but bad ballhandler and ballhog big to shoot anytime he wants (al jefferson)
- the big is skilled, has a decent J and he is good at handling the ball, so he can be used in the majority of the plays (cousins, davis, gasols, duncan, noah just for passing)
- you go orlando magic shooters with a prime dwight howard level talent (and probably lose in the PO to solid team like '10 celtics or lakers). This strategy also fails if you meet a team with sufficient penetration to put said talented big in foul trouble, or a team with a proper post defender.... so, as in real life, it would be very risky.

So to answer your original question: shaq, hakeem, kareem, ewing would all do good because they are all very skilled (besides being athletic monsters), but would need decent passing teams to properly use their offense as good low post position isn't easy to get today as a 1st option and charges are called at an all time high.

I haven't seen too much of walton so don't know.

McAdoo would do ok on a tanking team, he had serious range and skill but was a ball hog (imo, seen only on tape and he was old on the lakers)

wilt might work with '09 orlando like team, but he'd do nothing more than deandre jordan offensively without this perfect setup. Even with this he wasn't very efficient on high volume and because he is the GOAT choker the team is basically guaranteed to never win a ring with the described setup.
wilt would never work in noah's role, he can't pass nor can he play perimeter, nor can he shoot if open.

bill russell would be like a ben wallace. Don't know about defending the perimeter and all the other tricks but he seemed to be smart so i'll give him the benefit of doubt. Russell would need a floor spacing 4, otherwise it would get crowded fast.

I don't pay attention to other older bigs, as that era was trash. Simply can't watch a game no matter how much I try, the amount of dumb shit, unskilled play and ridiculous simplicity makes it look like a 50s comedy.

Even with all these bigs playing they'd get less shots these days, as the defense rotations are fast these days.... that's why you get so many pass-pass-pass-pass-pass 3s or the iso after a failed play.
lol why do you pretend understand basketball?

Real talk sons, describe how you'd fit in the league in its infancy stage.

I'm 6'3', with good handles and a decent midrange J. Seeing the cousy clips there is no doubt in my mind that i'd be starter material.

For the wilt stans: taking the D in the lockeroom doesn't count.
You wouldn't sniff a roleplayers jock strap in that era, they'd destroy you 21-0 one on one and you wouldn't even make the last spot on a bench on a legitimate high school team in that era unless you were good enough to do so in this era. I'm being serious. The only person who you're exposing as someone who doesn't understand basketball, is yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWNAKxZPpIA

That guy was cut from several teams in the 60's. Yeah, you're definitely not good enough to play back then. Sorry. Show us tape of you playing if you think otherwise. OP and I have posted in the 100 shots challenge thread, have you got the guts to do that after talking yourself up to be as good as NBA level talent?

[swagga]

lol why do you pretend understand basketball?

You wouldn't sniff a roleplayers jock strap in that era, they'd destroy you 21-0 one on one and you wouldn't even make the last spot on a bench on a legitimate high school team in that era unless you were good enough to do so in this era. I'm being serious. The only person who you're exposing as someone who doesn't understand basketball, is yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWNAKxZPpIA

That guy was cut from several teams in the 60's. Yeah, you're definitely not good enough to play back then. Sorry. Show us tape of you playing if you think otherwise. OP and I have posted in the 100 shots challenge thread, have you got the guts to do that after talking yourself up to be as good as NBA level talent?


LOL, cavsfraud posting, calling me out like I'm talking shit.
Fyi, when I was younger I've consistently played against D2 dudes and held my own. I got no chances against an NBA player from the early 70s (like the one in your video, from 73) or later .... but anybody who has seen these late 50s tapes knows that an athletic black man with decent game from today who doesn't mind playing prison rules would give these jumpshot-less handle-less weak bench guards a run for their money. It is what it is, no disrespect for them, they were great back then.

And son I ain't like you because:
- I ain't making videos hypothesizing how a player's size and undocumented skills might affect their impact in a completely different type of game 50 years after he laced his boots.
- I ain't taking hyperbole out of old newspapers and throw it around like facts
- I ain't keeping stats that weren't handled in an organized manner
- I ain't getting called out by people to pick two sleepers in the draft because I am not pretending to be an expert on tape analysis. And if I would do that, I wouldn't pusssy out of it like a punk ass bitch.
- I ain't making a shitload of irrelevant threads where I prop my youtube channel, basically spamming more than class A trolls like 3ball and euroleague
- I ain't getting called out for putting zero arguments and posting pictures where wilt touched the backboard with his dick playing along 9ft monsters, from some of the most warping picture angles known to man.
- I ain't constantly making threads about the best player of my team saying shit for the sake of it, even if melo is a lazy uninterested dude. IMO you aren't even a basketball fan, just a fraud posting here for the publicity.


You post zero logical arguments, like in the post I'm quoting. You don't say why, or how, or give any sort of reasoning, you just write shit consistent with your agenda baiting for clicks of your youtube channel. I'm not even an anti-era stan, I have just been following ball for a long time and can give a reasonable argument about things ... I also reason for the current rules of the game, which are here because of logical reasons. They have evolved because the game planning/coaching/preparation/player awareness/tape watching/nutrition/ has evolved in time, which in term created generations upon generations of small improvements with each generation trying to play more efficiently.
Therefore I take things for what they are. "Kareem's skills and game is much more compatible with all eras than wilt's for example". "Cousy's ballhandling would keep him out of the league today". "Wilt is choker, see a shitton of stats, quitting on the team, dragging jerry west down, etc", .... arguments backed by facts.

You come up as an arrogant imbecile cucked fagggot, which you probably are. I said it before and I'll say it again, you suck dick as a poster and you are a fake baby dick punk bitch who has zero knowledge or understanding or insight or logic and comes here just to take Ls, who has been called out by a lot of posters and always pussied out like a bitch.

So keep this ETHERING L you fagggot and shut the fck up.

[CavaliersFTW]

LOL, cavsfraud posting, calling me out like I'm talking shit.
Fyi, when I was younger I've consistently played against D2 dudes and held my own. I got no chances against an NBA player from the early 70s (like the one in your video, from 73) or later .... but anybody who has seen these late 50s tapes knows that an athletic black man with decent game from today who doesn't mind playing prison rules would give these jumpshot-less handle-less weak bench guards a run for their money. It is what it is, no disrespect for them, they were great back then.

And son I ain't like you because:
- I ain't making videos hypothesizing how a player's size and undocumented skills might affect their impact in a completely different type of game 50 years after he laced his boots.
- I ain't taking hyperbole out of old newspapers and throw it around like facts
- I ain't keeping stats that weren't handled in an organized manner
- I ain't getting called out by people to pick two sleepers in the draft because I am not pretending to be an expert on tape analysis. And if I would do that, I wouldn't pusssy out of it like a punk ass bitch.
- I ain't making a shitload of irrelevant threads where I prop my youtube channel, basically spamming more than class A trolls like 3ball and euroleague
- I ain't getting called out for putting zero arguments and posting pictures where wilt touched the backboard with his dick playing along 9ft monsters, from some of the most warping picture angles known to man.
- I ain't constantly making threads about the best player of my team saying shit for the sake of it, even if melo is a lazy uninterested dude. IMO you aren't even a basketball fan, just a fraud posting here for the publicity.


You post zero logical arguments, like in the post I'm quoting. You don't say why, or how, or give any sort of reasoning, you just write shit consistent with your agenda baiting for clicks of your youtube channel. I'm not even an anti-era stan, I have just been following ball for a long time and can give a reasonable argument about things ... I also reason for the current rules of the game, which are here because of logical reasons. They have evolved because the game planning/coaching/preparation/player awareness/tape watching/nutrition/ has evolved in time, which in term created generations upon generations of small improvements with each generation trying to play more efficiently.
Therefore I take things for what they are. "Kareem's skills and game is much more compatible with all eras than wilt's for example". "Cousy's ballhandling would keep him out of the league today". "Wilt is choker, see a shitton of stats, quitting on the team, dragging jerry west down, etc", .... arguments backed by facts.

You come up as an arrogant imbecile cucked fagggot, which you probably are. I said it before and I'll say it again, you suck dick as a poster and you are a fake baby dick punk bitch who has zero knowledge or understanding or insight or logic and comes here just to take Ls, who has been called out by a lot of posters and always pussied out like a bitch.

So keep this ETHERING L you fagggot and shut the fck up.
Mike Riordan was getting cut from NBA teams in the 1960's... that specific game just happens to be from 1973 because he managed to carve himself a place in the league as a role player into the mid 70's.

Post some footage of yourself playing. I bet you've never even seen yourself play before. I'm getting accused of arrogance, yet you're the one comparing yourself to professional NBA athletes than going off with an essay as to why I'M the one who's clueless. Makes sense.

[Nash]

can't talk about the individuals but surely the game is atleast a bit more difficult for post players. which leads me to believe that post bigs like Brook Lopez could maybe have been more dominant in the past since their skill is more appreciated as suppose to current basketball where its all about perimeter and spacing.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Took me a while to get all the sarcasm :lol

All of that "centers don't dominate nowadays because of rules" talk is mostly bullshit...

Go see Kareem play, for example, 1977 season at that when his teammates weren't much and he was at his best. Look at series like the one vs Walton's Blazers, Jabbar getting hit with double/triple-teams left and right, even off-ball yea believe that, traps and great help D, extreme physicality... You can see what a great center does, using tremendous versatile post-game to score on his man, terrific footwork to avoid double-teams and get buckets, moving extremely well off-ball, great passing and high IQ finding cutters and outside shooters, rebounding at a great rate, hitting some jumpers even. And yea, I'm talking about the highest epytome there, you had plenty of other more who could do similar stuff quite well...
All-time great centers would still be beastly today and other good ones would be good regardless... Perhaps even more, given the competition and whatnot...

[jongib369]

Took me a while to get all the sarcasm :lol

All of that "centers don't dominate nowadays because of rules" talk is mostly bullshit...

Go see Kareem play, for example, 1977 season at that when his teammates weren't much and he was at his best. Look at series like the one vs Walton's Blazers, Jabbar getting hit with double/triple-teams left and right, even off-ball yea believe that, traps and great help D, extreme physicality... You can see what a great center does, using tremendous versatile post-game to score on his man, terrific footwork to avoid double-teams and get buckets, moving extremely well off-ball, great passing and high IQ finding cutters and outside shooters, rebounding at a great rate, hitting some jumpers even. And yea, I'm talking about the highest epytome there, you had plenty of other more who could do similar stuff quite well...
All-time great centers would still be beastly today and other good ones would be good regardless... Perhaps even more, given the competition and whatnot...
Loving how people took it seriously :lol

But it's not just the rules like you said, it's the new emphasis on the 3 that would allow them to rip the league a new one....Possibly MORE than in the past because of all the spacing it'd give...Along with what you said about the rules making perimeter play more effective, you just can't defend centers the way you could in the past without being eaten alive by anyone on the team who isn't lazy and can shoot the ball deep

Whether it be Golden State, Atlanta, San Antonio etc you'd just be ****ed. And maybe not even on a team of their caliber

[swagga]

Mike Riordan was getting cut from NBA teams in the 1960's... that specific game just happens to be from 1973 because he managed to carve himself a place in the league as a role player into the mid 70's.

Post some footage of yourself playing. I bet you've never even seen yourself play before. I'm getting accused of arrogance, yet you're the one comparing yourself to professional NBA athletes than going off with an essay as to why I'M the one who's clueless. Makes sense.

as always deflecting like a punk ass bitch.
I've acused you of many things which are all easily provable just by giving thread links, and known to all this forum, yet you deflect as always, trying hard for that one subject where you can get some shit going when I basically took a shit on you as a poster.

Anyways, I said I could take a bench scrub from the 50s or early 60s from when the cousy gifs come from and I'm pretty confident that I could do that given the shown skill.

lol @posting personal data on the internet :lol

If you want to be taken seriously stop:
-making videos hypothesizing how a player's size and undocumented skills might affect their impact in a completely different type of game 50 years after he laced his boots.
- taking hyperbole out of old newspapers and throw it around like facts
- keeping and taking for granted stats that weren't handled in an organized manner
- getting called out by people to pick two sleepers in the draft because you are pretending to be able to extrapolate basketball abilities.
- pusssying out of thing like a punk ass bitch.
- making a shitload of irrelevant threads where you prop your youtube channel, basically spamming more than class A trolls like 3ball and euroleague
- getting called out for putting zero arguments and posting pictures where wilt touched the backboard with his dick playing along 9ft monsters, from some of the most warping picture angles known to man.

in before reply ignoring everything calling for personal video. you are not better than euroleague tbh :facepalm

[jongib369]

as always deflecting like a punk ass bitch.
I've acused you of many things which are all easily provable just by giving thread links, and known to all this forum, yet you deflect as always, trying hard for that one subject where you can get some shit going when I basically took a shit on you as a poster.

Anyways, I said I could take a bench scrub from the 50s or early 60s from when the cousy gifs come from and I'm pretty confident that I could do that given the shown skill.

lol @posting personal data on the internet :lol

If you want to be taken seriously stop:
-making videos hypothesizing how a player's size and undocumented skills might affect their impact in a completely different type of game 50 years after he laced his boots.
- taking hyperbole out of old newspapers and throw it around like facts
- keeping and taking for granted stats that weren't handled in an organized manner
- getting called out by people to pick two sleepers in the draft because you are pretending to be able to extrapolate basketball abilities.
- pusssying out of thing like a punk ass bitch.
- making a shitload of irrelevant threads where you prop your youtube channel, basically spamming more than class A trolls like 3ball and euroleague
- getting called out for putting zero arguments and posting pictures where wilt touched the backboard with his dick playing along 9ft monsters, from some of the most warping picture angles known to man.

in before reply ignoring everything calling for personal video. you are not better than euroleague tbh :facepalm
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352546

If you ever feel like proving how good you are

[stephanieg]

Today, if a big man can catch the ball and dunk it without tripping over himself he's praised to the moon and back.

[Akhenaten]

LOL, cavsfraud posting, calling me out like I'm talking shit.
Fyi, when I was younger I've consistently played against D2 dudes and held my own. I got no chances against an NBA player from the early 70s (like the one in your video, from 73) or later .... but anybody who has seen these late 50s tapes knows that an athletic black man with decent game from today who doesn't mind playing prison rules would give these jumpshot-less handle-less weak bench guards a run for their money. It is what it is, no disrespect for them, they were great back then.

And son I ain't like you because:
- I ain't making videos hypothesizing how a player's size and undocumented skills might affect their impact in a completely different type of game 50 years after he laced his boots.
- I ain't taking hyperbole out of old newspapers and throw it around like facts
- I ain't keeping stats that weren't handled in an organized manner
- I ain't getting called out by people to pick two sleepers in the draft because I am not pretending to be an expert on tape analysis. And if I would do that, I wouldn't pusssy out of it like a punk ass bitch.
- I ain't making a shitload of irrelevant threads where I prop my youtube channel, basically spamming more than class A trolls like 3ball and euroleague
- I ain't getting called out for putting zero arguments and posting pictures where wilt touched the backboard with his dick playing along 9ft monsters, from some of the most warping picture angles known to man.
- I ain't constantly making threads about the best player of my team saying shit for the sake of it, even if melo is a lazy uninterested dude. IMO you aren't even a basketball fan, just a fraud posting here for the publicity.


You post zero logical arguments, like in the post I'm quoting. You don't say why, or how, or give any sort of reasoning, you just write shit consistent with your agenda baiting for clicks of your youtube channel. I'm not even an anti-era stan, I have just been following ball for a long time and can give a reasonable argument about things ... I also reason for the current rules of the game, which are here because of logical reasons. They have evolved because the game planning/coaching/preparation/player awareness/tape watching/nutrition/ has evolved in time, which in term created generations upon generations of small improvements with each generation trying to play more efficiently.
Therefore I take things for what they are. "Kareem's skills and game is much more compatible with all eras than wilt's for example". "Cousy's ballhandling would keep him out of the league today". "Wilt is choker, see a shitton of stats, quitting on the team, dragging jerry west down, etc", .... arguments backed by facts.

You come up as an arrogant imbecile cucked fagggot, which you probably are. I said it before and I'll say it again, you suck dick as a poster and you are a fake baby dick punk bitch who has zero knowledge or understanding or insight or logic and comes here just to take Ls, who has been called out by a lot of posters and always pussied out like a bitch.

So keep this ETHERING L you fagggot and shut the fck up.

http://i.imgur.com/jTYvp7h.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/127748/daaaaaaaamn-o.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/183457/sub-zero-fatality-o.gif

RIP CavsFTW

[CavaliersFTW]

http://i.imgur.com/jTYvp7h.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/127748/daaaaaaaamn-o.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/183457/sub-zero-fatality-o.gif

RIP CavsFTW
He ethered himself the moment he posted an essay.

You ethered yourself the moment you thought an essay was ether.

RIP Akhenaten

[dubeta]

LOL @ anyone thinking those guards in the 60's were any good

The average ISH poster would easily be better than them.

[CavaliersFTW]

LOL @ anyone thinking those guards in the 60's were any good

The average ISH poster would easily be better than them.
Post footage of yourself. I'll mix it and put it on my channel, along side an average guard of the 60's, and let my 7,300 subscribers be the judge of that.

You up for it? Or are you a coward like Swagga "lol @ posting personal data on the internet".

[dubeta]

Post footage of yourself. I'll mix it and put it on my channel, along side an average guard of the 60's, and let my 7,300 subscribers be the judge of that.

You up for it?

LOOL I dont need a couple of old-era fans to judge who's better. Those subscribers probably think Wilt is this dominant clutch performer or something :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

first, although 3ball is an euroleague level troll, he has a point with the rule differences.

these days you can run your offense through your big 1st option like this:
- you are tanking and don't give a shit about offense and let your skilled but bad ballhandler and ballhog big to shoot anytime he wants (al jefferson)
- the big is skilled, has a decent J and he is good at handling the ball, so he can be used in the majority of the plays (cousins, davis, gasols, duncan, noah just for passing)
- you go orlando magic shooters with a prime dwight howard level talent (and probably lose in the PO to solid team like '10 celtics or lakers). This strategy also fails if you meet a team with sufficient penetration to put said talented big in foul trouble, or a team with a proper post defender.... so, as in real life, it would be very risky.

So to answer your original question: shaq, hakeem, kareem, ewing would all do good because they are all very skilled (besides being athletic monsters), but would need decent passing teams to properly use their offense as good low post position isn't easy to get today as a 1st option and charges are called at an all time high.

I haven't seen too much of walton so don't know.

McAdoo would do ok on a tanking team, he had serious range and skill but was a ball hog (imo, seen only on tape and he was old on the lakers)

wilt might work with '09 orlando like team, but he'd do nothing more than deandre jordan offensively without this perfect setup. Even with this he wasn't very efficient on high volume and because he is the GOAT choker the team is basically guaranteed to never win a ring with the described setup.
wilt would never work in noah's role, he can't pass nor can he play perimeter, nor can he shoot if open.


bill russell would be like a ben wallace. Don't know about defending the perimeter and all the other tricks but he seemed to be smart so i'll give him the benefit of doubt. Russell would need a floor spacing 4, otherwise it would get crowded fast.

I don't pay attention to other older bigs, as that era was trash. Simply can't watch a game no matter how much I try, the amount of dumb shit, unskilled play and ridiculous simplicity makes it look like a 50s comedy.

Even with all these bigs playing they'd get less shots these days, as the defense rotations are fast these days.... that's why you get so many pass-pass-pass-pass-pass 3s or the iso after a failed play.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

Virtually everything you posted in the bolded area is a flat out lie.

Shaq? Very skilled? He was a pure DUNKER. Yes, he OVERPOWERED his opposition, but couldn't shoot for his life from 3ft. Wilt was FAR more skilled, and did the bulk of scoring from 5-15 ft. This is well documented. And, had Wilt been allowed to knock a players' teeth out with flying elbows, while literally shoving them right out of the lane, well...the NBA would have folded.

Wilt inefficient? I see you mentioned Hakeem. In his highest scoring season, he averaged 27.8 ppg on a .517 FG%, in a league that shot an eFG% of .500. Chamberlain not only had a 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%, and in a league that shot an eFG% of .426...he had seasons of 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG% and in a league that shot .441; 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG% in a league that shot an eFG% of .433; and even a 24.1 ppg season on a .683 FG%, in a league that shot an eFG% of .441.

And Wilt couldn't pass? Hmmm...I guess neither could Magic, Nash, nor Stockton, since all they did was often lead the league in assists...which Chamberlain accomplished once, himself (and came in third in another season.) Oh, and Wilt even had an entire post-season, covering 15 games, in which he averaged 9.0 apg. But go ahead, and give us your long list of centers who put up a 6.0+ apg season, much less a 7.8, or 8.3 apg season.

Once again...ZERO RESEARCH in ANY of your posts.

I could trash every single sentence too, but it would be a waste of my time. You know NOTHING about the game of basketball.

[CavaliersFTW]

LOOL I dont need a couple of old-era fans to judge who's better. Those subscribers probably think Wilt is this dominant clutch performer or something :oldlol:
I'll post it on r/NBA. They aren't old era fans, they're basketball fans. And more than a couple will see it, a couple thousand will see it. Some cocky statement like "I'm better than 60's NBA guards" and the video "proof" would surely make front page for several hours and drum up several hundred comments. Either bashing you, or bashing the player in comparison. Got the guts? This goes for Swagga too, if he isn't afraid to put his reputation on the line.

[DonDadda59]

can't talk about the individuals but surely the game is atleast a bit more difficult for post players. which leads me to believe that post bigs like Brook Lopez could maybe have been more dominant in the past since their skill is more appreciated as suppose to current basketball where its all about perimeter and spacing.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Brook Lopez = poor man's Brad Daugherty. Wouldn't even have been an after thought when discussing best centers in the league in past eras. We're not talking about times where a Joakim Noah level player is all NBA first team. :facepalm

[swagga]

god damn the level of retardation in this thread is :facepalm :facepalm

probably only 2-3 unique posters as well... just a random dumbass talking to himself :roll:

im done with this thread sons, keep debating how wilt is a better passer than magic and how that is winning basketball :applause:

[Blue&Orange]

The advanced defensive tactics
I know OP was being sarcastic, but what about the advanced offensive tactics? Oh i forgot, for some unknown reason only defenses advanced in time. :lol

Lebrotards nuff said.

[jongib369]

god damn the level of retardation in this thread is :facepalm :facepalm

probably only 2-3 unique posters as well... just a random dumbass talking to himself :roll:

im done with this thread sons, keep debating how wilt is a better passer than magic and how that is winning basketball :applause:
Who here said Wilt was a better passer than Magic? Wilt's possibly the best passing bigman of all time, partly because of the kind of attention he'd have to get offensively.

Anyways, it seems as if you're just deflecting and then talking shit. I've seen cavs post in depth, he's just not wasting his time on you, replying to a wall of text mostly shit talking. Not that *I* think replying to you us a waste....But when you use how good you are as credentials, someone's going to call you out and ask for footage. Could easily put the camera at a distance so we can't exactly see your face either....If you really are that good it shouldn't be a problem. I've posted pictures of my face, and playing even though all I had was an okay jumper after a summer seriously practicing

Just wokeup, so I'm going to have some coffee and then look over your posts to him and see if I have anything to add.

[Real14]

Im reading the OP and Im like.......

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/4576146/russell-westbrook-wat-to-reporter-o.gif

[jongib369]

Im reading the OP and Im like.......

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/4576146/russell-westbrook-wat-to-reporter-o.gif

:lol

[jongib369]

I'll post it on r/NBA. They aren't old era fans, they're basketball fans. And more than a couple will see it, a couple thousand will see it. Some cocky statement like "I'm better than 60's NBA guards" and the video "proof" would surely make front page for several hours and drum up several hundred comments. Either bashing you, or bashing the player in comparison. Got the guts? This goes for Swagga too, if he isn't afraid to put his reputation on the line.
Where did you find the English version of the Bullets/Knicks game? Can't stand whats on youtube

[Real14]

:lol
:oldlol: