Michael Jordan DESTROYING shading and floods

[3ball]

.
MJ blowing by the invariably slower, shading bigs, as would be expected from Ramon Sessions, let alone MJ:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b65300f8b710f908d7b963f480a3e929.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/lDO68O.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b160bc7402615f75b7d7e12520d4ca3b.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/0jAxfn.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/sJyGot.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/9SEPQO.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a3f97fb5ca224f7de5850bfd10a8abc3.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/981db4f4b419af8380f2d2d6fcab498b.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/y823wS.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/39fa98ad00d6a10b4c300cf02030546d.gif


Today's paint-camping ban along with spacing creates a greater need for flooding and shading than previous eras.. Although these partial zones outside the paint are easy to beat for perimeter players, they provide a bandaid to offset today's spacing, paint-camping ban, and hand-check ban, so defensive effectiveness doesn't fall off a cliff in comparison to previous eras.

With no spacing in previous eras, defenders were in MUCH closer proximity, so shading and flooding happened quite naturally - obviously, with the invariably slower bigs coming away from the rim to shade in MJ's wheelhouse (the perimeter), he blew by and destroyed them quite easily.
.

[kamil]

All that without using the Stiff Arm.

[sportjames23]

fapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfap

I can't take all this MJ goodness!

[navy]

How many megabytes of gifs do you got saved?

[sdot_thadon]

Mj was just way too good at making quick reactions with the rock. Lol nevermind that Most of those gifs are attempted traps off pnr but carry on.....

[Smoke117]

I see you moved on from isolation...good for you, bro, good for you...great even.

Give yourself a hand...right across your ****ing mouth.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Great gifs though :applause:

[SwayDizzle]

beautiful stuff. MJ was so good at faking direction

[beastee]

Such fluid footwork. That is why his highlights are so amazing.

[diamenz]

that combination of penetration & awareness - there's no other.

another one that comes to mind is a sick in & out move he pulled 1v1 on ewing in the key on a fast break.

[Noyze]

Such fluid footwork. That is why his highlights are so amazing.

Exactly, that's what alot of people don't pay attention too. Dude's footwork was flawless.

[jzek]

Would average 40+ in today's weak-a55 game

[3ball]

Great gifs :applause:


all from two short highlight vids.. and I couldn't put all the instances that I found from those two vids in the OP, because the GIF limit is 10... there were a half-dozen more.

[dazzer87]

GOAT....Make it looks sooo Ea$y.........:pimp:

[kamil]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/39fa98ad00d6a10b4c300cf02030546d.gif

LOL, makes it look like childs play.

[dubeta]

:sleeping Not Impressed

[sportjames23]

:sleeping Not Impressed


Girls say the same thing about you.

[jstern]

I love Jordan's style of play.

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/bac13f0cb1f5f61a734995b0ca6bf86c.gif


With no spacing in previous eras, defenders were in MUCH closer proximity, so shading and flooding happened quite naturally, as seen with Moses Malone above - this natural shading was in addition to the more overt shading shown in the OP GIFs.

Obviously, with the slower bigs coming away from the rim to shade in MJ's wheelhouse (the perimeter), he blew by and destroyed them quite easily, as would be expected for ANY perimeter ballhandler versus a big.

Today's paint-camping ban along with spacing creates a greater need for flooding and shading than previous eras.. Although these partial zones outside the paint are easy to beat for perimeter players, they provide a bandaid to offset today's spacing, paint-camping ban, and hand-check ban, so defensive effectiveness doesn't fall off a cliff in comparison to previous eras.

[Jameerthefear]

Not impressed. Lebron >>> MJ

[sportjames23]

Not impressed. Lebron >>> MJ


Which mod let this fggt back in?

[MEB2kDeez]

:applause: :bowdown:

[Dro]

GOAT gonna goat......

[scandisk_]

.
MJ blowing by the invariably slower, shading bigs, as would be expected from Ramon Sessions, let alone MJ:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b65300f8b710f908d7b963f480a3e929.gif


never gets old.

[jayfan]

All that without using the Stiff Arm.

Exactly. Lebron can only watch in amazement.







.

[3ball]

.
More of MJ destroying shading:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/wSWEiH.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/NwamL4.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/o_sv9S.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/pIfj1X.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/a_7wTz.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/N1zmcy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/COzY74.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/kgwDAW.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4d4d2f5f70b04674aca93ac46599771c.gif

.

[DonDadda59]

But what about zone sandwiches? :confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

Nice gifs, hate how almost every one of them is a pick n roll with the coverage sagging back on the switch, due to the switch being a big in almost every case. is that really what we're talking about here?

[3ball]

.
Let me as you guys something - would you consider the play below to be shading?


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif

[DonDadda59]

But what about zone sandwiches? :confusedshrug:

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

:confusedshrug:
not sure what ur talking about boss

[sdot_thadon]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/36ab0a78453aa4ec0f7ac468d16a13ae.gif


they're all examples of shading, just like the GIF above, where Al Jefferson is sagging back on the screen roll coverage and not guarding his man.

the only difference in the Al Jefferson GIF above, is that it has far better spacing than the GIFs I posted of Jordan.

what is your definition of shading - you don't have to post a GIF, but just describe it or point me to a youtube.
Shading definitely isn't pick n roll coverage I wouldn't think. In a pnr the ballhandler's man and the picker's are involved defensively by default correct? I always thought shading was secondary defenders and beyond playing far enough off their man to give the illusion they aren't checking their guy whatsoever without directly double teaming. Basically keyed to the ball handler in centerfield. Aka illegal defense in your era. I know that it's been done in that era illegally, but it's perfectly acceptable and there's no penalty for it in this era. It's legitimate strategy currently.

[Jacks3]

Shading definitely isn't pick n roll coverage I wouldn't think. In a pnr the ballhandler's man and the picker's are involved defensively by default correct? I always thought shading was secondary defenders and beyond playing far enough off their man to give the illusion they aren't checking their guy whatsoever without directly double teaming. Basically keyed to the ball handler in centerfield. Aka illegal defense in your era. I know that it's been done in that era illegally, but it's perfectly acceptable and there's no penalty for it in this era. It's legitimate strategy currently.

yep. most of the gifs are just your typical defensive schemes. OP doesn't understand the difference between a team being occasionally getting away with illegal defense, and being able to do it consistently every game whenever they want.

[3ball]

Shading definitely isn't pick n roll coverage I wouldn't think.


maybe - but new fans to the game think that in previous eras, defenders couldn't sag off their man in pnr coverage - this thread blows that ignorant theory out the window.

[andgar923]

.
Spacing necessitates shading - otherwise, it's not needed (as you can see):


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/832a26d5ea87f83465b92fe12837530b.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c2bdc97f50bdc6f9fb0d44ff4f53f8f6.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/728b10a2dca8fca89dca89f115243b29.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/54cd4db17a9330ca58b8e33a0b6f9b2f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9452b82cec96338b7f838b67c9198694.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif

Exactly.

In almost all of the gifs posted 4 out of 5 defenders are in the paint or close to the ball.

[3ball]

One more thing - new fans have this ridiculous idea that previous eras had to hug their man at the 3-point line - this is flat-out dumb, and anyone who repeats this idiotic notion (ahem, Dr.J4ever) only reveals that they have never actually watched any footage of previous eras.. How many GIFs on this page alone show defenders sagging off 3-point shooters?

People who say defenders in previous eras had to hug 3-point shooters may or may no be aware that they are blatantly lyinge that couldn't be more false or easily verifiable that it's false - just watch ONE PLAY from a previous era and you'll be proven wrong.. i'm still waiting for someone to post a play from a previous era where 4 offensive players are standing behind the 3-point line to clear out for an isolation... :facepalm

Also, the rules state that defenders can sag off 3-point shooters - see rule 2a in the Illegal Defense Guidelines.

[3ball]

I always thought shading was secondary defenders and beyond playing far enough off their man to give the illusion they aren't checking their guy whatsoever without directly double teaming.


There's no definition of shading anywhere, so you may or may not be right - for all we know, the GIFs I've posted itt are indeed shading (where defenders are sagging off screen-roll coverage a super-ton).. It would be nice to have an actual definition of what shading is, but we don't appear to, unless you or someone else can find one.

But regardless, how are you able to ignore what's staring you in the face - spacing necessitates shading - how can you ignore this and/or not be aware of it?.. And knowing this, how can you brag about today's shading?.. That's skip bayless-level thinking and logic.

When defenders are more spread out, they have to shade more.. When defenders aren't as spread out, they don't have to shade as much, or at all.. Clearly, additional shading is not needed in any of those GIFs, nor would more shading even be possible.

[sdot_thadon]

maybe - but new fans to the game think that in previous eras, defenders couldn't sag off their man in pnr coverage - this thread blows that ignorant theory out the window.
I've never saw that proposed at all here.

[DonDadda59]

There's no definition of shading anywhere, so you may or may not be right - for all we know, the GIFs I've posted itt are indeed shading (where defenders are sagging off screen-roll coverage a super-ton).. It would be nice to have an actual definition of what shading is, but we don't appear to, unless you or someone else can find one.



Good luck with getting an actual definition. :oldlol:

It changes according to the agenda of the person using the made up term. It's just help defense... although it looks now that it doesn't count if it's preceded by a pick? :confusedshrug:

Also, I ordered a zone sandwich a while ago... the girl said it'd be right out... I'm starving. :confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

There's no definition of shading anywhere, so you may or may not be right - for all we know, the GIFs I've posted itt are indeed shading (where defenders are sagging off screen-roll coverage a super-ton).. It would be nice to have an actual definition of what shading is, but we don't appear to, unless you or someone else can find one.

But regardless, how are you able to ignore what's staring you in the face - spacing necessitates shading - how can you ignore this and/or not be aware of it?.. And knowing this, how can you brag about today's shading?.. That's skip bayless-level thinking and logic.

When defenders are more spread out, they have to shade more.. When defenders aren't as spread out, they don't have to shade as much, or at all.. Clearly, additional shading is not needed in any of those GIFs, nor would more shading even be possible.
The funniest thing about this is that you have some sort of religious level connection on the topic, for me it's just a conversation. I'm not bragging about it either way, just not with the misinformation you and some others spread around here. Those gifs are mostly pick n roll, there's no denying that.

Also does space necessitate shading? Or is spacing the only way to beat the evolved defenses for a star? As far as I can recall three point shooting as a main part of offense only became league wide recently....

One last thing, I challenge you....and any other old era guys to come and join us in 2015. The game is alive and well here I promise. It's different but in some ways it's better, other ways it's worse. But it's still very high quality product. I don't see the constant need to trash this era you still are a part of......

[sdot_thadon]

Good luck with getting an actual definition. :oldlol:

It changes according to the agenda of the person using the made up term. It's just help defense... although it looks now that it doesn't count if it's preceded by a pick? :confusedshrug:

Also, I ordered a zone sandwich a while ago... the girl said it'd be right out... I'm starving. :confusedshrug:
The reason why it matters whether or not it's a pnr play is because that automatically involves another defender, it would be the same in ANY era. Quit with the foolishness.

[DonDadda59]

The reason why it matters whether or not it's a pnr play is because that automatically involves another defender, it would be the same in ANY era. Quit with the foolishness.

Just so we're clear... it doesn't count as 'shading' if someone sets a pick? Pretty much every team in the NBA's offense is based on the PnR nowadays. Good to know. :applause:

Anyway...

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-01-2015/KdJEpr.gif

^Looks like a 3-2 floating zone to me, with plenty of shade being thrown at Pippen.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-08-2015/1qgSto.gif

Laimbeer starts camping out in the paint, soon as Jordan catches the ball on the wing he.... shades him :( along with another defender. Back in the day they used to call that a triple team. Don't know what the modern advanced defense term is for that. Triple shade strong side floating zone sandwich flood? That sound good? :confusedshrug:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-08-2015/VnGCtL.gif

^No picks, only shade.

That meet your random, ever-changing definition? :confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

Just so we're clear... it doesn't count as 'shading' if someone sets a pick? Pretty much every team in the NBA's offense is based on the PnR nowadays. Good to know. :applause:

Anyway...

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-01-2015/KdJEpr.gif

^Looks like a 3-2 floating zone to me, with plenty of shade being thrown at Pippen.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-08-2015/1qgSto.gif

Laimbeer starts camping out in the paint, soon as Jordan catches the ball on the wing he.... shades him :( along with another defender. Back in the day they used to call that a triple team. Don't know what the modern advanced defense term is for that. Triple shade strong side floating zone sandwich flood? That sound good? :confusedshrug:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-08-2015/VnGCtL.gif

^No picks, only shade.

That meet your random, ever-changing definition? :confusedshrug:
Lmao. This is gold. Those are both just double teams as the rules stated. 1st gif looks the part to me. 2nd gif is the same concept i suppose except they had no other option than to fully triple team due to the risk of breaking the rules. Only thing I can say Is he kinda hesitated in the 3rd gif before fully committing to the double. I dunno wtf a zone sandwich is man. In today's game they could basically stay in their original positions the entire play. No need to full commit to a double or triple team. A shade is not a double team or trap. It's used to take away driving lanes and passing angles. Shade is what occurs before the move is actually made. Fill in gaps thay the ball handler wants or needs, make him take a jumper he doesn't want or give the ball up. Great method for keeping guys from reaching their spots. I get that it's new fangled terminology for you old dinosaurs but it's really not that damn complicated.

Simple as this:
old days you either double or stay with your man
Consequences: illegal defense if ref chooses to call it.

Modern game, free to guard any spot on the floor.
Consequences: none directly tied to the rules.

[DonDadda59]

Lmao. This is gold. Those are both just double teams as the rules stated. 1st gif looks the part to me. Only thing I can say Is he kinda hesitated in the 3rd gif before fully committing to the double. I dunno wtf a zone sandwich is man. A shade is not a double team or trap. It's used to take away driving lanes and passing angles. Shade is what occurs before the move is actually made. Fill in gaps thay the ball handler wants or needs, make him take a jumper he doesn't want or give the ball up. Great method for keeping guys from reaching their spots. I get that it's new fangled terminology for you old dinosaurs but it's really not that damn complicated.

Simple as this:
old days you either double or stay with your man
Consequences: illegal defense if ref chooses to call it.

Modern game, free to guard any spot on the floor.
Consequences: none directly tied to the rules.

Of course :oldlol:

Go ahead and show me some specific examples of non PnR shading. No cop outs. I can show you how to make gifs if need be. It's easy as shit. Will be looking forward to actual examples. :cheers:

[LoneyROY7]

MJ truly was a god among men.

...but, what's a god to a non-believer?

[sdot_thadon]

Of course :oldlol:

Go ahead and show me some specific examples of non PnR shading. No cop outs. I can show you how to make gifs if need be. It's easy as shit. Will be looking forward to actual examples. :cheers:
Dude I applaud you guys that make gifs but I couldn't be bothered to do it. You watch basketball, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Agenda aside of course.

[sdot_thadon]

MJ truly was a god among men.

...but, what's a god to a non-believer?
Yeah Mj was a bad dude.

[Showtime80']

Floods, shades, tornados, deceit, Chinese Checkers etc... or whatever the hell kind of goofy name you want to call today's gimmicks (which have always been used by the way), does anybody seriously think that the 90's Bulls and Jordan DON'T win at least 75 wins while Michael averages at least 30ppg in todays pathetic East?

[DonDadda59]

Dude I applaud you guys that make gifs but I couldn't be bothered to do it. You watch basketball, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Agenda aside of course.

In other words you're full of shit and you can't back up anything you say with anything tangible. You just keep trying to move the goal posts every time someone shows you a specific example of your ever-changing definition of 'shading'. :cheers:

[sdot_thadon]

In other words you're full of shit and you can't back up anything you say with anything tangible. You just keep trying to move the goal posts every time someone shows you a specific example of your ever-changing definition of 'shading'. :cheers:
Man, this get funnier by the post with you bro. I'm discussing something that's fairly common and accessible, I don't have a changing definition. I just don't think the shit ur putting up is the same as the topic. I don't have to make gifs to prove a point. Those posts were basic pnr defense and double teams, nearly every one of them. I acknowledged the ones I felt were part of the discussion and called out the ones that were pretty irrelevant. Seems like you're the one changing definitions here. I mean dude you introduced double teams as zone type defense?
:biggums: :biggums:

[DonDadda59]

Man, this get funnier by the post with you bro. I'm discussing something that's fairly common and accessible, I don't have a changing definition. I just don't think the shit ur putting up is the same as the topic. I don't have to make gifs to prove a point. Those posts were basic pnr defense and double teams, nearly every one of them. I acknowledged the ones I felt were part of the discussion and called out the ones that were pretty irrelevant. Seems like you're the one changing definitions here. I mean dude you introduced double teams as zone type defense?
:biggums: :biggums:

Again, either give a definition of what exactly you're talking about with specific examples or admit you're absolutely full of shit. Pretty straight forward. All I've gotten from our exchanges is that it doesn't count as 'shading' if someone sets a pick (AKA 90% of all NBA offenses today) and it doesn't count as 'shading' if the help defender gets too close to the ball handler. :oldlol:

As to the bold... you do know what a 3-2 zone is don't you?

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/images/32ZoneDefenseSet.GIF

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-01-2015/KdJEpr.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6_GgXXR4vA&spfreload=10

:confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

Again, either give a definition of what exactly you're talking about with specific examples or admit you're absolutely full of shit. Pretty straight forward. All I've gotten from our exchanges is that it doesn't count as 'shading' if someone sets a pick (AKA 90% of all NBA offenses today) and it doesn't count as 'shading' if the help defender gets too close to the ball handler. :oldlol:

As to the bold... you do know what a 3-2 zone is don't you?

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/images/32ZoneDefenseSet.GIF

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-01-2015/KdJEpr.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6_GgXXR4vA&spfreload=10

:confusedshrug:
This is how I know you're just pumping agenda. That was one of the only gifs I felt fit the discussion and said as much. Congrats, now that you have that what does it mean to you? Is it the irrefutable proof you needed that this era sucks or that Mj played against the current rules?

[DonDadda59]

This is how I know you're just pumping agenda. That was one of the only gifs I felt fit the discussion and said as much. Congrats, now that you have that what does it mean to you? Is it the irrefutable proof you needed that this era sucks or that Mj played against the current rules?

Didn't need gifs to reach that conclusion. :oldlol:

Honestly it doesn't seem like you know what you're even trying to argue. Why is it so hard for you to define 'shading' and then post specific examples of it? 3Ball and I have been posting gifs based on your descriptions, yet every time something new changes. Pick and rolls don't count now, defenders can't be too close, etc.

So tell us your definition. Back it up with tangible proof. Simple as that.

It doesn't really seem like you even knew what a 3-2 zone was. That should've been a red flag to me I suppose. But here we are.

Any time you're ready.

[sportjames23]

MJ truly was a god among men.

...but, what's a god to a non-believer?


Still a god. :bowdown:

[3ball]

not with the misinformation you and some others spread around here.


if you cannot give me a definition of shading, then you cannot say my GIFs aren't shading, and you can't say it's misinformation - so STFU accusing me of misinformation, when you are offering no counter or evidence that it's misinformation.

also, most new fans in this forum believed you couldn't sag off your man in pnr coverage like you can today - that is clearly bullshit ignorance from new fans... this thread has proven that.

most new fans also believe previous era defenders had to hug shooters at the 3-point line - again, this is pure poppycock from ignorant fans that haven't paid real attention to any previous era footage they've seen.





Also does space necessitate shading?


obviously - by the definition of what spacing actually is, the answer is yes - there is no denying this.. but keep trying though - i know you will.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Got that zone sandwich today for lunch from Which Which. It was delicious.

"Shading" ... "Zone Sandwich" errr you mean help defense? Double teams. Triple teams. LOL.

Yes, kids it never existed before 2008. Thibs is the originator.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yeah, alright "coach"

[DonDadda59]

if you cannot give me a definition of shading, then you cannot say my GIFs aren't shading, and you can't say it's misinformation - so STFU accusing me of misinformation, when you are offering no counter or evidence that it's misinformation.

also, most new fans in this forum believed you couldn't sag off your man in pnr coverage like you can today - that is clearly bullshit ignorance from new fans... this thread has proven that.

most new fans also believe previous era defenders had to hug shooters at the 3-point line - again, this is pure poppycock from ignorant fans that haven't paid real attention to any previous era footage they've seen.



obviously - by the definition of what spacing actually is, the answer is yes - there is no denying this.. but keep trying though - i know you will.

Dude doesn't even know what a 3-2 zone is. That's the sort of shit you learn in elementary school basketball. Obviously he can't get into any sort of detailed talk about the game. :lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yeah, alright "coach"
Exactly.

[jstern]

I remember once watching a Jordan video on YouTube. And I remember reading a comment that said, "I thought you couldn't double team back then." That's why it can get frustrating, arguing with people who are not familiar with a subject. Having teenage fans batch a Jordan, etc, because it's all based on ignorance.

[sdot_thadon]

This is the thing you guys don't understand, I'm not some kid that just started watching. I grew up in the Mj era. Used to worship the ground he walked on like some of you, I grew up. It's time fellas. I'm not trying to diminsh the era I was raised on but I think it's pretty foul the way you guys carry on. He's retired, he can't win anymore games or imaginary rings no matter how hard you guys push.

Back on subject, I explained what I got shading to be several times, if you guys lack basic reading comprehension then you're more lost than I originally thought.

Pnr coverage is not zone defense, otherwise that means zone was never outlawed to begin with. Basic right?

Shading is keying the defense, at least more than the primary defender, up to and including all of them on the floor to send a guy to a different place on the floor than he'd like to go using zone or partial zone techniques.

Don't even want to mention Lebron cause he seems to get you guys' panties in a bunch but watch the way upper echelon teams defend him.

When he's iso on the wing he has a primary defender in man coverage and usually a 2nd maybe 3rd guy behind the primary in a zone type setup. Usually to deter drives by eliminating lanes. Sometimes it's the big other times it's not. Again not saying this particular situation didn't ever occur before rule changes, but it never occurred LEGALLY.

It's not straight doubles we're talking here. Old rules state you either check your man or double. What's so difficult to get here fellas? Does it really hurt that much to credit the current era in anyway?

[iznogood]

Of course :oldlol:

Go ahead and show me some specific examples of non PnR shading. No cop outs. I can show you how to make gifs if need be. It's easy as shit. Will be looking forward to actual examples. :cheers:
I'm not trying to pick a side here, I'll just try to explain what I see in the gifs you posted and compare to what I think you would normally see today. I'm also not sure if I understand correctly what shading means since I've seen it used differently, but this is what I assume.

Your last clip where Laimbeer (?) comes to double on the wing is (at least to me) something you don't see nowadays anymore.

In situations like this teams now normally set their big on the side of the paint guarding no one in particular. This way he can help on the drive and protect the rim or just helps on penetration and forces a pass. This way he can recover quickly if the ballhandler makes a skip pass to the other side of the court. It also makes a read more difficult in my opinion.

In your gif Laimbeer stays at the elbow for a second, but then has to come to double hard on the ball or he would get called for illegal defense. When the offense swings the ball he has to cover a lot of ground to get back to his man which takes more time and gives the offense more time to attack the basket.

[sdot_thadon]

I'm not trying to pick a side here, I'll just try to explain what I see in the gifs you posted and compare to what I think you would normally see today. I'm also not sure if I understand correctly what shading means since I've seen it used differently, but this is what I assume.

Your last clip where Laimbeer (?) comes to double on the wing is (at least to me) something you don't see nowadays anymore.

In situations like this teams now normally set their big on the side of the paint guarding no one in particular. This way he can help on the drive and protect the rim or just helps on penetration and forces a pass. This way he can recover quickly if the ballhandler makes a skip pass to the other side of the court. It also makes a read more difficult in my opinion.

In your gif Laimbeer stays at the elbow for a second, but then has to come to double hard on the ball or he would get called for illegal defense. When the offense swings the ball he has to cover a lot of ground to get back to his man which takes more time and gives the offense more time to attack the basket.
Yeah, how long he can wait it out before committing to the double was left in the refs hands.

[iznogood]

Just so we're clear... it doesn't count as 'shading' if someone sets a pick? Pretty much every team in the NBA's offense is based on the PnR nowadays. Good to know. :applause:

Anyway...

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-01-2015/KdJEpr.gif

^Looks like a 3-2 floating zone to me, with plenty of shade being thrown at Pippen.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-08-2015/1qgSto.gif

Laimbeer starts camping out in the paint, soon as Jordan catches the ball on the wing he.... shades him :( along with another defender. Back in the day they used to call that a triple team. Don't know what the modern advanced defense term is for that. Triple shade strong side floating zone sandwich flood? That sound good? :confusedshrug:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-08-2015/VnGCtL.gif

^No picks, only shade.

That meet your random, ever-changing definition? :confusedshrug:
Can you explain what do you mean by the term floating zone? I tried googling it and couldn't find anything. It's also not a flex 3-2 zone - in that case the middle one of the 3 perimeter players would drop down to the paint and the player on the right side of the paint would cover the wing player. Do you happen to have a longer clip of that play, I find it confusing since it's unclear what the help defender was doing before he came to double. Also I'm not really sure wether that was inteded or not since Pipen's primary defender waves him off. To me it looks like the man who came to double simply made a mistake since he first looks at the short corner just to realise there's already a defender defending the offensive wing player before he sprints to the other corner.

As for the second gif, I don't think this is what is meant by shading, it's a triple team.

As for the third gif I already explained my opinion in my previous post.

[3ball]

This is the thing you guys don't understand, I'm not some kid that just started watching. I grew up in the Mj era. Used to worship the ground he walked on like some of you, I grew up. It's time fellas. I'm not trying to diminsh the era I was raised on but I think it's pretty foul the way you guys carry on.


you've proven your stupidity by trying to deny that spacing necessitates shading.

without spacing, guys are already shading.

the only reason shading is such a big deal today is BECAUSE of spacing.. but keep ignoring this fact and trying to steer the narrative how you want... keep denying the facts..
.

[3ball]

.
Spacing necessitates shading - without spacing (seen below), defenders are already close together and shading - look how far the defenders are shading off their man (including 3-point shooters - look at isiah below):


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/832a26d5ea87f83465b92fe12837530b.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c2bdc97f50bdc6f9fb0d44ff4f53f8f6.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/728b10a2dca8fca89dca89f115243b29.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/54cd4db17a9330ca58b8e33a0b6f9b2f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9452b82cec96338b7f838b67c9198694.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif

[sdot_thadon]

you've proven your stupidity by trying to deny that spacing necessitates shading.

without spacing, guys are already shading.

the only reason shading is such a big deal today is BECAUSE of spacing.. but keep ignoring this fact and trying to steer the narrative how you want... keep denying the facts..
.
Stupidity? :oldlol: Dude you're borderline rainman in here most days, let's not throw insults.

I merely asked a question. I asked if spacing necessitates shading or the other way around. This spacing thing you keep waving around is a fairly new thing adopted in the league. It wasn't widespread in 2001 nor 2004(in the way you mean it obviously). It's recent. Just a few years ago most of the league hadn't fully committed to 3's for spacing the way it is now. A few teams were ahead of the curve but Miami succeeding the way they did kinda fully deployed it as a tactic around the league as a whole. Remember sports is very much a copycat world. Lebron's teams for the most part sorta had it. But now there are stretch 4s on lots of teams. It's an evolved offensive strategy.

What do all these gifs set to prove if I may ask? Just throw the agenda on the table already.

[3ball]

What do all these gifs set to prove if I may ask?


To answer this question, I'm going to assume shading = playing off your man to help on any offensive player.

A defender whose man is behind the 3-point line must shade a further distance than a defender whose man is inside the 3-point line - this proves that more spacing necessitates more shading - it's physics.

So what do the GIF's show?.. They show how the lack of spacing in previous eras allowed defenders to shade (play off their man) shorter distances than today's defenders.

[sdot_thadon]

To answer this question, I'm going to assume shading = playing off your man to help on any offensive player.

A defender whose man is behind the 3-point line must shade a further distance than a defender whose man is inside the 3-point line - this proves that more spacing necessitates more shading - it's physics.

So what do the GIF's show?.. They show how the lack of spacing in previous eras allowed defenders to shade (play off their man) shorter distances than today's defenders.
See that's the catch 22 3ball. They couldn't LEGALLY shade at all in that era. Without spacing those type of defenses would basically shut down most stars today. Spacing is the method to beat that particular type of defense. I keep reiterating this to you. The 3 point shot as a spacing tool wasn't widely adopted till recently. You can talk about it all day now because it's damn near used league wide now. Teams are breaking the record for most 3pt attempts every year now it seems.

[3ball]

let me set you straight sdot

[3ball]

They couldn't LEGALLY shade at all in that era.


seriously, you gonna just think i'm getting mad or something, but you have no idea how dumb you look thinking man-to-man defense means you have to stand right next to your man (i almost included this in the last post because i suspected you remarkably thought this).

even if you don't know basketball basics - on virtually every single possession in previous eras, every single on-court defender played off their man to a degree.. like, what you said about previous eras not being able to play off their man at all is utterly ridiculous.

any basketball person can tell you that man-to-man defense does not mean you have to stand right next to your man - that's considered BAD man-to-man defense and you get benched for that as standard.

sportjames, don dadda, set this guy straight on his erroneous assumption.

meanwhile i'll set him straight using the actual rules - here's rule Rule 2a (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines:

2a. Weakside defenders may be in a defensive position within the "outside lane" with no time limit, and within the "Inside lane" for 2.9 seconds.


The above rule allows a weakside defender whose man is behind the corner or sideline 3-point line, to stand in the paint for up to 3 seconds while the ball is on the strongside... Still think man-to-man means you can't shade at all?... :facepalm

[sdot_thadon]

seriously, you gonna just think i'm getting mad or something, but you have no idea how dumb you look thinking man-to-man defense means you have to stand right next to your man (i almost included this in the last post because i suspected you remarkably thought this).

even if you don't know basketball basics - on virtually every single possession in previous eras, every single on-court defender played off their man to a degree.. like, what you said about previous eras not being able to play off their man at all is utterly ridiculous.

any basketball person can tell you that man-to-man defense does not mean you have to stand right next to your man - that's considered BAD man-to-man defense and you get benched for that as standard.

sportjames, don dadda, set this guy straight on his erroneous assumption.

meanwhile i'll set him straight using the actual rules - here's rule Rule 2a (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines:

2a. Weakside defenders may be in a defensive position within the "outside lane" with no time limit, and within the "Inside lane" for 2.9 seconds.


The above rule allows a weakside defender whose man is behind the corner or sideline 3-point line, to stand in the paint for up to 3 seconds while the ball is on the strongside... Still think man-to-man means you can't shade at all?... :facepalm
So meanwhile during this "setting me straight" you still don't realize there aren't any constraints on guarding your man or otherwise currently? Shading or flooding has no requirements of staying near your man. It's such a simple fundamental detail you're refusing to grasp.

[3ball]

there aren't any constraints on guarding your man or otherwise currently


http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html

Again, a purely false narrative you created - today's defenders have all these restrictions that previous eras never had:


Defensive Three Seconds:
A defensive player is not allowed inside the key area for more than three seconds unless he is guarding the player with the ball or is actively guarding any opponent. To be considered actively guarding, a defender must be within an arms length of an opponent. If an offensive player moves through the key, the defender must be within an arms length, and also move along with the offensive player. He can not just stand there and put his arms out to get a new three second count.

Forearm Fouls:
A defender may not be in contact with an extended forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time above the free throw line extended. Below the free throw line extended and outside the lower defensive box, a defender may use an extended forearm to the back/side of an opponent with the ball to maintain his legally obtained position. Inside the lower defensive box, a defender may use an extended forearm at anytime to maintain his position against a payer with the ball. At no time may the forearm be used to dislodge, reroute or impede the offensive player.

Hand Checking:
A defender may not place and keep his hand on an opponent unless he is in the area near the basket and the offensive player has his back to the basket. A defender may momentarily touch an opponent with his hand anywhere on the court as long as it does not affect the opponent’s movement (speed, quickness, balance, rhythm).

Flagrant Fouls:
These fouls are considered unnecessary and/or excessive. There are two types of flagrant foul, 1 and 2. A flagrant foul 1 is unnecessary contact. This is usually when a defensive player winds-up and makes hard contact with the offensive player or makes hard contact and then follows through. A flagrant foul 2 has the components of a flagrant foul 1 and is unnecessary and excessive contact. This usually has a wind-up motion, hard contact and a follow through. Both fouls carry a penalty of two free throws and the team that was fouled retains possession. A flagrant foul 2 also results in an ejection of the player committing the foul once it is reviewed by instant replay. A player also is ejected if he commits two flagrant foul penalty 1’s in the same game.
.

[sdot_thadon]

http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html

Again, a purely false narrative you created - today's defenders have all these restrictions that previous eras never had:


Defensive Three Seconds:
A defensive player is not allowed inside the key area for more than three seconds unless he is guarding the player with the ball or is actively guarding any opponent. To be considered actively guarding, a defender must be within an arms length of an opponent. If an offensive player moves through the key, the defender must be within an arms length, and also move along with the offensive player. He can not just stand there and put his arms out to get a new three second count.

Forearm Fouls:
A defender may not be in contact with an extended forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time above the free throw line extended. Below the free throw line extended and outside the lower defensive box, a defender may use an extended forearm to the back/side of an opponent with the ball to maintain his legally obtained position. Inside the lower defensive box, a defender may use an extended forearm at anytime to maintain his position against a payer with the ball. At no time may the forearm be used to dislodge, reroute or impede the offensive player.

Hand Checking:
A defender may not place and keep his hand on an opponent unless he is in the area near the basket and the offensive player has his back to the basket. A defender may momentarily touch an opponent with his hand anywhere on the court as long as it does not affect the opponent’s movement (speed, quickness, balance, rhythm).

Flagrant Fouls:
These fouls are considered unnecessary and/or excessive. There are two types of flagrant foul, 1 and 2. A flagrant foul 1 is unnecessary contact. This is usually when a defensive player winds-up and makes hard contact with the offensive player or makes hard contact and then follows through. A flagrant foul 2 has the components of a flagrant foul 1 and is unnecessary and excessive contact. This usually has a wind-up motion, hard contact and a follow through. Both fouls carry a penalty of two free throws and the team that was fouled retains possession. A flagrant foul 2 also results in an ejection of the player committing the foul once it is reviewed by instant replay. A player also is ejected if he commits two flagrant foul penalty 1’s in the same game.
.
Wake up man, I could have sworn this entire thread and subsequent back and forth is about zone principles. Went totally left, Stay on topic.

[3ball]

Wake up man, I could have sworn this entire thread and subsequent back and forth is about zone principles. Went totally left, Stay on topic.
i just answered the question you posed - you said there were no restrictions on today's defenders, so i had no choice but to show you how wrong you were on that.

and those rules do relate to zone defense - the defensive 3 seconds rule banned zones inside the paint, and instead implemented an "armslength" rule that amounts to the type of man-to-man YOU were talking about (where you have to stand right next to your man - this is now true inside the paint in today's game.. while inside the paint, defenders have to stand right next to their man.. :confusedshrug: )

the defensive 3 seconds rule was part of the new rules package instituted in 2005, along with the bans on hand-checking and various physicality - after these rules were instituted, Jordan said he could score 100 under these new rules..

"Based on these rules.. I could have scored 100 points."

http://uproxx.com/dimemag/2010/10/michael-jordan-if-i-played-today-i-could-have-scored-100-points/

[andgar923]

Wake up man, I could have sworn this entire thread and subsequent back and forth is about zone principles. Went totally left, Stay on topic.
:facepalm :facepalm

[Im Still Ballin]

Don't bother with these trolls

I toasted and roasted these mother****ers and the best they could come up with was Stu Jackson, illegal defense no calls, and zone statistics

****ing LMAO.

[sdot_thadon]

i just answered the question you posed - you said there were no restrictions on today's defenders, so i had no choice but to show you how wrong you were on that.

and those rules do relate to zone defense - the defensive 3 seconds rule banned zones inside the paint, and instead implemented an "armslength" rule that amounts to the type of man-to-man YOU were talking about (where you have to stand right next to your man - this is now true inside the paint in today's game.. while inside the paint, defenders have to stand right next to their man.. :confusedshrug: )

the defensive 3 seconds rule was part of the new rules package instituted in 2005, along with the bans on hand-checking and various physicality - after these rules were instituted, Jordan said he could score 100 under these new rules..

"Based on these rules.. I could have scored 100 points."

http://uproxx.com/dimemag/2010/10/michael-jordan-if-i-played-today-i-could-have-scored-100-points/
Yeah numbskull in the context of the conversation we were having. You made the thread, I gotta remind you what it's about?

It's pretty sad though you're trying to form my words for me, guess you feel like you're getting boxed out or something.


:facepalm :facepalm
As for you, I'm sure there's some pom-poms around here somewhere.

[DonDadda59]

This thread is still alive?

Was anyone ever able to get an actual definition of 'shading' or any tangible examples or are people still tap dancing around the question and playing passive aggressive? :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

This thread is still alive?

Was anyone ever able to get an actual definition of 'shading' or any tangible examples or are people still tap dancing around the question and playing passive aggressive? :confusedshrug:
Me and sdot agreed that:

Shading = Playing off your man to help on any offensive player**

Based on this definition, I explained to sdot that a defender whose man is behind the 3-point line must shade a further distance than a defender whose man is inside the 3-point line - this proves that more spacing necessitates more shading - it's physics.

Certainly, the lack of spacing in previous eras allowed defenders to shade for shorter distances than today's defenders.. At this point, Sdot embarrassed himself by stating that previous era defenders were not allowed to legally play off their man AT ALL - man-to-man defense meant the defender had to stand next to their man at all times..

So I went ahead an set sdot straight about man-to-man (obviously, man-to-man doesn't mean you have to stand right next to your man).. Then sdot said that today's defenders didn't have ANY restrictions of staying near their man - so then I pointed out that today's defenders had to abide by defensive 3 seconds, which requires defenders to stay within armslength while inside the paint - this essentially bans zone inside the paint and instead institutes the exact defense sdot thought man-to-man was (having to stand right next to your man).

of course, today's defenders don't just have defensive 3 seconds restricting them, they are also restricted by the bans on hand-checking and various physicality, and defenders must also be wary of flagrant fouls (which didn't exist in previous eras).

** this includes a lot of scenarios, including instances where a defender is sagging of his man in screen roll coverage like the GIFs

[sdot_thadon]

Me and sdot agreed that:

Shading = Playing off your man to help on any offensive player**

Certainly, the lack of spacing in previous eras allowed defenders to shade for shorter distances than today's defenders.. At this point, Sdot embarrassed himself by stating that previous era defenders were not allowed to legally play off their man AT ALL - man-to-man defense meant the defender had to stand next to their man at all times..
have defensive 3 seconds restricting them, they are also restricted by the bans on hand-checking and various physicality, and defenders must also be wary of flagrant fouls (which didn't exist in previous eras).
Idiocy at it's finest, show me where I said the defender had to stand right next to his man. Reaching too far to stay afloat homie. We also didn't come to any kind of agreement whatsoever.

More space makes more shading necessary according to you right? Eat some of this.

•without spacing, with the ability to play zone how would a single ball handler cope? Spacing is an outlet to the shading/flooding schemes. Literally creates the space a primary handler needs to create offense against those schemes. And even with that it still remains difficult to get what you want out of a possession.

•why would more spacing cause more shading, if anything the spacing keeps guys closer to shooters if they are dangerous enough.

• what exactly would spacing accomplish if the guys on the floor can't shoot? Wouldn't you play further off a guy with no shot? Especially since current rules allow you to ignore your man if you choose to? If anything spacing decreases it.

:biggums: .

[3ball]

show me where I said the defender had to stand right next to his man.




They couldn't LEGALLY shade at all in that era


You said it right there ^^^^^^^^^ displaying severe ignorance of basketball basics... And we've established that shading is playing off your man to help on another offensive player - so if guys can't shade AT ALL like you said, then they have to stand right next to their man.

You forget that i already chastised you about this in a previous post - and at that time, you didn't deny what you'd said because it was right there in the post.. apparently, you must have forgotten that you posted that to begin with.





why would more spacing cause more shading, if anything the spacing keeps guys closer to shooters if they are dangerous enough.


I've made you flip-flop - this entire thread is about shading (playing off your man to help on another offensive player, such as a dribble-penetrator).

And now you are saying today's defenders DON'T shade off 3-point shooters to help on penetration.. So either way you lose - either today's defenders don't shade off 3-point shooters to help on penetration, thus allowing dribble-penetrators to have carte blanche... Or, defenders DO shade off of 3-point shooters to help on penetration, and therefore must shade a further distance than a defender whose man is inside the 3-point line (so more spacing necessitates more shading).

But keep dancing around and flip-flopping like a politician on this issue.. It's entertaining..

[sdot_thadon]

You said it right there ^^^^^^^^^ displaying severe ignorance of basketball basics... And we've established that shading is playing off your man to help on another offensive player - so if guys can't shade AT ALL like you said, then they have to stand right next to their man.

You forget that i already chastised you about this in a previous post - and at that time, you didn't deny what you'd said because it was right there in the post.. apparently, you must have forgotten that you posted that to begin with.



I've made you flip-flop - this entire thread is about shading (playing off your man to help on another offensive player, such as a dribble-penetrator).

And now you are saying today's defenders DON'T shade off 3-point shooters to help on penetration.. So either way you lose - either today's defenders don't shade off 3-point shooters to help on penetration, thus allowing dribble-penetrators to have carte blanche... Or, defenders DO shade off of 3-point shooters to help on penetration, and therefore must shade a further distance than a defender whose man is inside the 3-point line (so more spacing necessitates more shading).

But keep dancing around and flip-flopping like a politician on this issue.. It's entertaining..
Definitely an idiot who lives in some fantasy world where what people say means something totally different. Was shocked there was even a decent discussion going on but now I feel like I'm punching on the slow kid. Sorry bro. If you can't do simple things like not make shit up you can't have a debate.

[3ball]

people say means something totally different



then what did you mean by saying shading was completely illegal in previous eras (your post below)?




They couldn't LEGALLY shade at all in that era


if we are assuming shading = playing off your man to help on another offensive player, then your post above is saying that previous era defenders couldn't legally play off their man at all (shade), and were therefore legally obligated to stand right next to their man.. this is patently false.

ironically, your erroneous perception of what man-to-man defense is only occurs in today's game, with the defensive 3 seconds rule - it's armslength provision requires defenders to vacate the paint unless they are within armslength of their man - that's the only time in history that the NBA outlawed playing off your man (shading) entirely.. :confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

then what did you mean by saying shading was completely illegal in previous eras (your post below)?


if we are assuming shading = playing off your man to help on another offensive player, then your post above is saying that previous era defenders couldn't legally play off their man at all (shade), and were therefore legally obligated to stand right next to their man.. this is patently false.

ironically, your erroneous perception of what man-to-man defense is only occurs in today's game, with the defensive 3 seconds rule - it's armslength provision requires defenders to vacate the paint unless they are within armslength of their man - that's the only time in history that the NBA outlawed playing off your man (shading) entirely.. :confusedshrug:
:biggums:
All that nonsense you just posted aside, dude wtf happened to you trainwreck? I remember when you used to post like a normal person on another site and not the autistic copy/paste spam bot you've become.

[3ball]

:biggums:
All that nonsense you just posted aside, dude wtf happened to you trainwreck? I remember when you used to post like a normal person on another site and not the autistic copy/paste spam bot you've become.
your post above is a 100% change of topic, so i'll take it as your white flag.. your "no mas".. you said defenders in previous eras couldn't play off their man at all, and now you're trying to walk that back by directing the conversation elsewhere.. pathetic.

ironically, your erroneous perception of man-to-man defense only occurs in today's game, with the defensive 3 seconds rule - it's armslength provision requires defenders to vacate the paint unless they are within armslength of their man - today's defensive 3 seconds rule is the only time in history that the NBA outlawed playing off your man (shading) entirely.

but keep up the good sophistry fight - i don't have to use sophistry and misdirection so i don't look bad... i can just state facts - for example - a defender whose man is behind the 3-point line has to shade a further distance off him to help on dribble-penetration than a defender whose man in inside the 3-point line - this proves more spacing necessitates more shading - not that it needed to be proved, since it's physics and intuitive.

spacing has been around since the inception of the 3-point shot in 1982.. by 1985 there was very little spacing though, as teams shot only attempted two 3-pointers per game.. by 1999, teams were attempting 14 threes per game, so spacing was that much better.. by 2006 teams were shooting 17 threes per game, and spacing was even better.. today, teams shoot 22 threes per game, so spacing is as good as it's ever been... these are all facts.

[sdot_thadon]

your post above is a 100% change of topic, so i'll take it as your white flag.. your "no mas".. you said defenders in previous eras couldn't play off their man at all, and now you're trying to walk that back by directing the conversation elsewhere.. pathetic.

ironically, your erroneous perception of man-to-man defense only occurs in today's game, with the defensive 3 seconds rule - it's armslength provision requires defenders to vacate the paint unless they are within armslength of their man - today's defensive 3 seconds rule is the only time in history that the NBA outlawed playing off your man (shading) entirely.

but keep up the good sophistry fight - i don't have to use sophistry and misdirection so i don't look bad... i can just state facts - for example - a defender whose man is behind the 3-point line has to shade a further distance off him to help on dribble-penetration than a defender whose man in inside the 3-point line - this proves more spacing necessitates more shading - not that it needed to be proved, since it's physics and intuitive.

spacing has been around since the inception of the 3-point shot in 1982.. by 1985 there was very little spacing though, as teams shot only attempted two 3-pointers per game.. by 1999, teams were attempting 14 threes per game, so spacing was that much better.. by 2006 teams were shooting 17 threes per game, and spacing was even better.. today, teams shoot 22 threes per game, so spacing is as good as it's ever been... these are all facts.

Oh its not bro believe me, but I've come to the realization that you're an idiot plain and simple and just curious as to how you became a full blown troll when I know you weren't always one. The topic is pretty much a dead end as you had to resort to making shit up and putting words in my mouth as well as failure to exhibit basic human logic. You my friend are poison to this board, there's good reason you aren't allowed in any other forum for longer than a few days.......

[3ball]

Oh its not bro believe me, but I've come to the realization that you're an idiot plain and simple and just curious as to how you became a full blown troll when I know you weren't always one. The topic is pretty much a dead end as you had to resort to making shit up and putting words in my mouth as well as failure to exhibit basic human logic. You my friend are poison to this board, there's good reason you aren't allowed in any other forum for longer than a few days.......
most posters on these forums are casual fans that don't have a high understanding of the game, so they can't understand half the shit i say - you fall into this category obviously - this thread has proven that several times over.

[sdot_thadon]

most posters on these forums are casual fans that don't have a high understanding of the game, so they can't understand half the shit i say - you fall into this category obviously - this thread has proven that several times over.
Be real, the only people who halfway appreciate your posts are the ones like you, grown ass men still hero worshiping their teen age idol. If you didn't shoot agenda so hard you'd probably be a decent poster.

[DonDadda59]

Be real, the only people who halfway appreciate your posts are the ones like you, grown ass men still hero worshiping their teen age idol. If you didn't shoot agenda so hard you'd probably be a decent poster.

Why do you keep coming back here to post nothing?

You can't define the bullshit you're spewing or even provide examples of it. You didn't even know what a 3-2 zone is. But you're here discussing zone principles?

:yaohappy:

[sdot_thadon]

Why do you keep coming back here to post nothing?

You can't define the bullshit you're spewing or even provide examples of it. You didn't even know what a 3-2 zone is. But you're here discussing zone principles?

:yaohappy:
Been waiting for you to come back and tell me more how double teams and pnr coverage is zone ya dumb b****. problem is you assume and obviously are agenda driven as well. Keep fighting the good fight :coleman:

[DonDadda59]

Been waiting for you to come back and tell me more how double teams and pnr coverage is zone ya dumb b****. problem is you assume and obviously are agenda driven as well. Keep fighting the good fight :coleman:

They've got youtube videos where you can learn the basics of basketball.

3-2 zone, 2-3 zone, 2-2-1, they've got videos of them all. Watch and learn, then maybe next time you watch a game you can tell the difference between a zone and man defense with help. :lol

[Im Still Ballin]

:facepalm

[iznogood]

They've got youtube videos where you can learn the basics of basketball.

3-2 zone, 2-3 zone, 2-2-1, they've got videos of them all. Watch and learn, then maybe next time you watch a game you can tell the difference between a zone and man defense with help. :lol
Maybe you missed my post a couple of pages back, but I'm genuinely interested in what type of defense were you talking about when you were referring to 3-2 float zone and how does it relate to that gif. I tried googling but couldn't find anything.
Also, I believe 3-2, 2-3 and 2-2-1 don't fall into the same category since 2-2-1 is a zone press and not a half court set, did you happen to be referring to 2-1-2?

[DonDadda59]

Maybe you missed my post a couple of pages back, but I'm genuinely interested in what type of defense were you talking about when you were referring to 3-2 float zone and how does it relate to that gif. I tried googling but couldn't find anything.
Also, I believe 3-2, 2-3 and 2-2-1 don't fall into the same category since 2-2-1 is a zone press and not a half court set, did you happen to be referring to 2-1-2?

It's all shit I made up and don't feel like defining or posting examples of.

So... yeah. Bitch. :confusedshrug:

[iznogood]

I don't think you made it up, but I do feel like you tried to bluff though.

[DonDadda59]

I don't think you made it up, but I do feel like you tried to bluff though.

Here I am being passive aggressive instead of talking about the subject at hand.

You're a b****.

Am I doing it right, sdot? :confusedshrug:

[TheMan]

Don't bother with these trolls

I toasted and roasted these mother****ers and the best they could come up with was Stu Jackson, illegal defense no calls, and zone statistics

****ing LMAO.
You did no such thing, you delusional fvck :oldlol: You're a joke of a poster here, you get taken to the woodshed in your own threads on the regular, only people who agree with you are LeBron stans who share your agenda, everyone else no matter who they are fans are, thinks you're clueless :lol

I have no idea why sdot_thadon is being so obtuse with his "shading" and 'zone this and zones that' bullshit, those gifs shown time and again MJ having to work with multiple defenders on him, and on top of that, the paint is always packed in all those gifs. Gone is the nerrative idiots like Im Still Ballin that want to claim MJ just had to beat one guys and he was at the front of the rim unopposed :facepalm

BTW, good stuff 3Ball and Don, and what an amazing gif the one where an old ass Jordan dunks on a young Duncan...the same player who as an old geezer blocked an MVP candidate (Harden) to save a ball game just a couple of days ago...b-b-b-but Jordan would struggle today!!! :oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

You did no such thing, you delusional fvck :oldlol: You're a joke of a poster here, you get taken to the woodshed in your own threads on the regular, only people who agree with you are LeBron stans who share your agenda, everyone else no matter who they are fans are, thinks you're clueless :lol

I have no idea why sdot_thadon is being so obtuse with his "shading" and 'zone this and zones that' bullshit, those gifs shown time and again MJ having to work with multiple defenders on him, and on top of that, the paint is always packed in all those gifs. Gone is the nerrative idiots like Im Still Ballin that want to claim MJ just had to beat one guys and he was at the front of the rim unopposed :facepalm

BTW, good stuff 3Ball and Don, and what an amazing gif the one where an old ass Jordan dunks on a young Duncan...the same player who as an old geezer blocked an MVP candidate (Harden) to save a ball game just a couple of days ago...b-b-b-but Jordan would struggle today!!! :oldlol:
Don't understand how I'm being obtuse about anything. My opinion is these guys are pushing bullshit for agendas. If the damn plays don't even fit the discussion why wouldn't I call them out if I'm participating. Don't let your allegiance blind you man. I'm not attacking Mj in anyway, just think it's foul how these old clowns push utter bullshit.


Here I am being passive aggressive instead of talking about the subject at hand.

You're a b****.

Am I doing it right, sdot? :confusedshrug:
I dunno why you're even speaking my name, you didn't want any part of the discussion otherwise you wouldn't try to bullshit your way out of it. Speak when spoken to pimp.

[TheMan]

Don't understand how I'm being obtuse about anything. My opinion is these guys are pushing bullshit for agendas. If the damn plays don't even fit the discussion why wouldn't I call them out if I'm participating. Don't let your allegiance blind you man. I'm not attacking Mj in anyway, just think it's foul how these old clowns push utter bullshit.


I dunno why you're even speaking my name, you didn't want any part of the discussion otherwise you wouldn't try to bullshit your way out of it. Speak when spoken to pimp.
The whole gist of this thread, from what I gather, is 3Ball disproving the false notion pushed by LeBron stans like I'm Still BSing, mehyaM24, dubeta and his ilk that Jordan had it easy because he ISO'd all the time (never mind that the Bulls ran a triangle offense, which you should know is based on the low block play with constant ball and player movement), that Jordan hardly ever faced multiple players on his penetration drives to the rim. If what you say is true and you watched MJ play, you know nothing could be further from the truth. Those gifs show MJ facing not only his defender but 2 and sometimes 3 more guys, and with a big camped out in the paint. Many of those gifs also show defenders who were supposed to be guarding the Bulls 3pt shooters "shading" inside the paint to congest the paint even further.

If you consider yourself an unbiased poster, you know damn well what the Bran Stans agenda is, they're trying to argue that Bran has it much tougher, that's why he can't score on MJ's level. Fact, dribble penetration is easier now because teams have to respect the 3 point shot therefore opening up driving lanes (not MJ's fault LeBron isn't as quick on making decisions on how to attack like MJ did and sometimes takes forever dribbling which let's the defense settle in and "shade"), the paint isn't as congested as before because bigs can't camp out anymore and defenders are no longer allowed to put a hand on the offensive player to impede his progress. Just common sense, bruh:confusedshrug:

[Hey Yo]

Been waiting for you to come back and tell me more how double teams and pnr coverage is zone ya dumb b****. problem is you assume and obviously are agenda driven as well. Keep fighting the good fight :coleman:
Don-mode ruined