Videos on several 90s role players and a discussion on changing athleticism.

[Kblaze8855]

Im not yet out of stars to cover but as usual I just have a point to make that I will partially do so in video form...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnK5grs89jo


^
Stacey Augmon


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=friuhKhEL60&feature=youtu.be


^
4 players covered there. 2 you should all know....2 you may not. I assume you all know Dee Brown...most at least know the name Robert Pack. Doug West and Blue Edwards could be total mysteries.

My point isnt how great any of them were...but rather that they and dozens of other role players from the time were great athletes. You wouldnt assume it needed to be said that there were many athletic non stars but ive read/heard it said often.

Many will tell you that the top stars were great athletes but the difference in is that now there are so many athletic average players. As if all the great athletes then were stars. Not gonna go into a whole thing on that...I just wanted to mention it. I have 36 of these guys already in mind in case I continue this...just off the top of my head....I bet I make 1-2 more and forget about it.

What id like to talk about is this...

Lets say there has been a massive leap in athletic ability in 20 years. What do you attribute it to? Compared to say...the 50s? The game is much more popular. bigger pool of talent to draw from. But to the 80s and 90s? Cant be said. Internationally? Yes. But they wouldnt be the source of most of the athletic difference(If there is now).

Sure there are athletic internationals....perhaps one of you is about to reel them off as if I dont also watch the NBA....but still. They arent making up the supposed difference is physical talent.

So what is?

Id say players are clearly more muscular...but in many cases seem to have lost the fluidity/body control the leaner 80s/90s players had. A trade off im sure they are happy with...but it stands out to me.

Especially watching someone like Augmon. Players are bigger...but that seems like about it to me.

A lot of the highlight difference is just what people are allowed to do...and expected to do.

If(if....) players just flat out got more athletic in just 20 years...what would you credit for it? Evolution clearly doesnt work that fast. Advanced training making people more explosive?

I dont know what one could do to get much quicker...

Most of the absurd athletic just have it naturally. Maybe great training makes the average athlete a little better...but you dont train to be a guy like Gerald Green. Thats just in you or it isnt. I say that disregarding for now that Steve Francis and Charles Barkley pretty much manufactured their athletic ability out of frustration over sucking....

[oarabbus]

Im not yet out of stars to cover but as usual I just have a point to make that I will partially do so in video form...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnK5grs89jo



Most of the absurd athletic just have it naturally. Maybe great training makes the average athlete a little better...but you dont train to be a guy like Gerald Green. Thats just in you or it isnt. I say that disregarding for now that Steve Francis and Charles Barkley pretty much manufactured their athletic ability out of frustration over sucking....


Wait, is there more on this somewhere? I actually was unaware of this, Peak Barkley had seemingly absurd athleticism I assumed it was inherent...

[navy]

I dont think there is a huge athletic difference from the 90s or 80s to today.

The 60s? Might just be the film, but even those guys have said players got more athletic. So probably something to that.

I would attribute it to increase/better weight training techniques and conditioning exercises. Perhaps at the loss of fluidity like you said.

[SugarHill]

1:57 in the second video is a beautiful dunk

Blue Edwards was athletic as fvck. Had some monster dunks in the second half of the vid

[Dasher]

Wait, is there more on this somewhere? I actually was unaware of this, Peak Barkley had seemingly absurd athleticism I assumed it was inherent...
Chuck is said to have jumped over a fence for years to increase his leaping ability. Clyde Drexler also once told a similar story about working to get his legendary springs.

[Im Still Ballin]

90's was the steroid era for sure

especially the late 90's

[LAZERUSS]

And how about Shannon Brown in the last few years? Marvelous athlete. Mediocre basketball player. Same with James White, who could easily get his head above rim level, but who couldn't put the ball in the basket.

Athleticism, by itself, has been a non-factor. Conversely, determination, and hard work have been far more important. Moses Malone was never a great leaper, but he was probably the most relentless player of all-time. Dennis Rodman was certainly athletic, but he didn't possess jaw-dropping leaping ability. Neither did Ben Wallace. Hell, Kevin Love can barely dunk. How do explain those guys dominating the glass?

[The_Pharcyde]

The Old men Spurs wiped the floor with the "modern" Miami Heat, I thought that alone would have disspelled the notion that athleticism is nearly as important as many claim it to be

Also while
Training methods have certainly became finer tuned, the difference between the 80's and 90's compared to now is so overblown and usually by people trying to push a certain agenda(we all know what agenda)

Basketball is way more about skill level than jumping through the roof
Love, Nash, Stockton, dirk, dragic etc. are all prime examples

Hell, gary Payton said Stockton was the hardest player to
Guard in his career

[mehyaM24]

very good mix, kblaze. mad props.

if there was a player i could compare augmon to today, it would be odom (though he hasn't played in a year or two). easy comparison because they're lefty, but the finishing ability is too similar. look at the extension stacey had @ 3:15. that was odom circa clipper days.

but yea, crafty around the hoop and tough to defend (block his shot) because of the off-hand.

[L.Kizzle]

Not really that big of a difference except I guess those 90s players were better fundamentally.

Gerald Green comes to mind. He's decent I guess.

But you can go back some years to complete bums who were athletic as hell. Eddie Robinson anyone? Kirk Snyder. Ricky Davis was putting up what 22/5/5 in 2003 before LeBron came along. I don't think he does that in 1991 though.

Scott Brooks probably wouldn't make the league today.

[Kblaze8855]

1:57 in the second video is a beautiful dunk

Blue Edwards was athletic as fvck. Had some monster dunks in the second half of the vid

And he had a lot more. I couldn't even find all that I remembered. One year both he and Lamond Murray destroyed Hakeem back to back weeks. I noticed it making a Lamond video years ago but I couldn't figure out what I did with the footage.

[raiderfan19]

There are a ton of guys who were crazy athletes. Hell tony Dumas was an absolute freak. He had no idea how to play basketball but an absolute freak.

And the dude who said Ben Wallace didn't have a crazy vert... Umm that's factually incorrect

[iamgine]

There might come a time when parents start grooming their child since very young and put them in "sport school" instead of regular school.
Like in China.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/-f6vCt8sxrEY/TihQJLBRpdI/AAAAAAAAPFw/ytr5aSbCE_o/china-sports-school1%25255B2%25255D.jpg

[AirFederer]

Advanced PEDs.

They had roids in the 70-80-90ies also, mind you, but today's regimen is on another level imho. Plus I think being physically fit is more emphasized now. Imho.

I have never hidden my belief -strictly unproved- that nearly all greats the last 30 years or so doped at one time.
Including MJ, Pip, Bron, Kobe..

[Rose'sACL]

The Old men Spurs wiped the floor with the "modern" Miami Heat, I thought that alone would have disspelled the notion that athleticism is nearly as important as many claim it to be

Also while
Training methods have certainly became finer tuned, the difference between the 80's and 90's compared to now is so overblown and usually by people trying to push a certain agenda(we all know what agenda)

Basketball is way more about skill level than jumping through the roof
Love, Nash, Stockton, dirk, dragic etc. are all prime examples

Hell, gary Payton said Stockton was the hardest player to
Guard in his career
Did you watch 2014 finals or not? Miami lost because spurs ran them out of the building given that Miami were the older team and couldn't get back on defense. Miami was the slower team of the two.
Athleticism is not just jumping ability. It also matters if you can out run your opponent. Wade looked older than Duncan in that series.

[warriorfan]

Im not yet out of stars to cover but as usual I just have a point to make that I will partially do so in video form...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnK5grs89jo


^
Stacey Augmon


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=friuhKhEL60&feature=youtu.be


^
4 players covered there. 2 you should all know....2 you may not. I assume you all know Dee Brown...most at least know the name Robert Pack. Doug West and Blue Edwards could be total mysteries.

My point isnt how great any of them were...but rather that they and dozens of other role players from the time were great athletes. You wouldnt assume it needed to be said that there were many athletic non stars but ive read/heard it said often.

Many will tell you that the top stars were great athletes but the difference in is that now there are so many athletic average players. As if all the great athletes then were stars. Not gonna go into a whole thing on that...I just wanted to mention it. I have 36 of these guys already in mind in case I continue this...just off the top of my head....I bet I make 1-2 more and forget about it.

What id like to talk about is this...

Lets say there has been a massive leap in athletic ability in 20 years. What do you attribute it to? Compared to say...the 50s? The game is much more popular. bigger pool of talent to draw from. But to the 80s and 90s? Cant be said. Internationally? Yes. But they wouldnt be the source of most of the athletic difference(If there is now).

Sure there are athletic internationals....perhaps one of you is about to reel them off as if I dont also watch the NBA....but still. They arent making up the supposed difference is physical talent.

So what is?

Id say players are clearly more muscular...but in many cases seem to have lost the fluidity/body control the leaner 80s/90s players had. A trade off im sure they are happy with...but it stands out to me.

Especially watching someone like Augmon. Players are bigger...but that seems like about it to me.

A lot of the highlight difference is just what people are allowed to do...and expected to do.

If(if....) players just flat out got more athletic in just 20 years...what would you credit for it? Evolution clearly doesnt work that fast. Advanced training making people more explosive?

I dont know what one could do to get much quicker...

Most of the absurd athletic just have it naturally. Maybe great training makes the average athlete a little better...but you dont train to be a guy like Gerald Green. Thats just in you or it isnt. I say that disregarding for now that Steve Francis and Charles Barkley pretty much manufactured their athletic ability out of frustration over sucking....


only the hard core trolls think the nba was non athletic 20 years ago... normal people know what is up

[raiderfan19]

The only real difference is there are more freakish length/athlete combos than there used to be(not that they didn't exist back then too, there are just more of them now)

[SHAQisGOAT]

Plenty of people never even heard of someone like Orlando Woolridge, a 6'9 jacked up athletic freak who played back in the 80's... Had skills too, never even all-star though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ-CH_dHw8Q
http://www.theoriginators.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/2012-06-01-woo.jpg

Kenny Walker wasn't doing much in the league, then knee injuries even forced him out earlier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJVhdmYm5bI
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/2%20All-Star%20Weekend/Slam%20Dunk%20Contest/dunk20contestkennywalker.jpg~original

Darryl Dawkins was a freaking behemoth who could really move/jump, posterizing dudes left and right, breaking backboards and whatnot. Had some moves on the low-block, developed a decent jumper... Never viewed as much, never all-star.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sYJ2ItXiRo
http://www.pivotworld9.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/darryl-dawkins2.jpg

This 6'3 dude played as a pro for a few years, even on a Celtics squad with Larry Bird. Was not to be a great player or anything but drug issues killed his career very quickly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuzUyVvMs4E
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-08-2015/NWVCFj.gif

Most people have no idea who Terence Stansbury, Billy Thompson, Terry Tyler, Johnny Dawkins, Roy Hinson, Edgar Jones, Otis Smith, Shelton Jones or Derek Smith are... and they never did much, at all, in the league.

Some NBA 80's dunks, mostly in game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD7o6nCv5qw

Shit, you got a dude like Dan Roundfield who was tall, long and a very good athlete, who was a really good all-around player, who would've/should've won DPOY in 1980 if the award was given out already (either him or Kareem)... and you can only find VERY limited footage of him out there, and lots of people never even heard of him.

Anyways, some people will blow that whole athleticism talk WAY out of proportion though... Many times not even knowing what they're talking about, be it knowing past players or knowing anything about the human species...

[The Iron Sheik]

what about larry nance? dude was an insane athlete. if he played today he would have athletic highlights on tv every other day

EDIT: didn't read the topic fully. nance wasn't a role player :oldlol:

[julizaver]

Plenty of people never even heard of someone like Orlando Woolridge, a 6'9 jacked up athletic freak who played back in the 80's... Had skills too, never even all-star though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ-CH_dHw8Q
http://www.theoriginators.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/2012-06-01-woo.jpg

Kenny Walker wasn't doing much in the league, then knee injuries even forced him out earlier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJVhdmYm5bI
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/2%20All-Star%20Weekend/Slam%20Dunk%20Contest/dunk20contestkennywalker.jpg~original

Darryl Dawkins was a freaking behemoth who could really move/jump, posterizing dudes left and right, breaking backboards and whatnot. Had some moves on the low-block, developed a decent jumper... Never viewed as much, never all-star.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sYJ2ItXiRo
http://www.pivotworld9.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/darryl-dawkins2.jpg

This 6'3 dude played as a pro for a few years, even on a Celtics squad with Larry Bird. Was not to be a great player or anything but drug issues killed his career very quickly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuzUyVvMs4E
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-08-2015/NWVCFj.gif

Most people have no idea who Terence Stansbury, Billy Thompson, Terry Tyler, Johnny Dawkins, Roy Hinson, Edgar Jones, Otis Smith, Shelton Jones or Derek Smith are... and they never did much, at all, in the league.

Some NBA 80's dunks, mostly in game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD7o6nCv5qw

Shit, you got a dude like Dan Roundfield who was tall, long and a very good athlete, who was a really good all-around player, who would've/should've won DPOY in 1980 if the award was given out already (either him or Kareem)... and you can only find VERY limited footage of him out there, and lots of people never even heard of him.

Anyways, some people will blow that whole athleticism talk WAY out of proportion though... Many times not even knowing what they're talking about, be it knowing past players or knowing anything about the human species...


And I think that even an All-Star caliber player like Latrell Spreewell, who played in 90s till 2005 is forgotten now ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugphPVQHaaw

That guy (although the topic is about role players)had crazy athleticism and made some insane highlights that amused me at the time.

[Dro]

This thread:applause:

[Kblaze8855]

Anyone wanting an example of the kind of posts that inspire these topics:



Every move they can do, athletes can do in college now. Every dunk that was a 50 then, when a player of this era does it- Kenny and Charles laugh at it.

You can say the fundamentals are lacking in today's players, but then if you go overseas. You'll see fundamentals are as good and better than it ever has been. In today's NBA, everybody can jump out the gym, not just 2 or 3 players.

^
Moments ago

People really really believe...the only great athletes were the few stars they see on TV now and then.

[Da KO King]

The athletic ability of a completely average NBA player is greater now than in the past.

The guys of yesteryear weren't slugs but many would be "undersized" if they came to the current NBA.

[Showtime80']

Give the fundamentally sound hard nosed high IQ players of yesteryear instead of the all muscle/no brains or fundamentals athletes of today! The NBA has suffered tremendously due to the shift in focus from fundamentals to athleticism.

I would take John Stockton over ANY PG in today's game and the guy probably never dunked in an NBA game!

[Dro]

The athletic ability of a completely average NBA player is greater now than in the past.

The guys of yesteryear weren't slugs but many would be "undersized" if they came to the current NBA.
What does their size have to do with their athletic ability/.

[ILLsmak]

What does their size have to do with their athletic ability/.


I think dudes are more talented overall but not as much in the areas they should be talented in. Meaning, you might have 7 footers with handles... but they aren't as good in the post or guarding the rim.

It's like everyone has the same skill set.

As for athleticism, well, it's different types of players. PEDs/nutrition absolutely has an effect, plus a larger talent pool due to more people. But yea there are dudes in the NBA who are crazy athletes that are total garbage. It makes no sense. I don't recall many guys like that in the 90s.

-Smak

[SHAQisGOAT]

The athletic ability of a completely average NBA player is greater now than in the past.

The guys of yesteryear weren't slugs but many would be "undersized" if they came to the current NBA.

I'd say probably yea (mostly due to improved medicine/equipment/accessories/regiments, so on) but it's still pretty subjective... Rule changes also makes it "easier" for one to display more athletic capabilities, let's say.

League's average weight has been relatively equal for a long time now (even with the league keeping it updated now unlike in the past) while average height was at its peak in the 80's, so I don't get what you mean by that...

[Dro]

I'd say probably yea (mostly due to improved medicine/equipment/accessories/regiments, so on) but it's still pretty subjective... Rule changes also makes it "easier" for one to display more athletic capabilities, let's say.

League's average weight has been relatively equal for a long time now (even with the league keeping it updated now unlike in the past) while average height was at its peak in the 80's, so I don't get what you mean by that...
Thats what I mean, he mentioned size but that has no bearing on athletic ability, I'm talking natural athletic ability, not enhanced by outside factors.