Today's era is the first to ban ALL shading inside the paint

[3ball]

Shading = sagging off or playing off your man to help on another offensive player

The only time in history that the NBA outlawed shading ENTIRELY (forcing defenders to stand right next to their man) was with the new defensive 3 seconds rule implemented in 2005 - this eliminated all shading inside the 16 x 19 foot painted area.

The armslength provision of the defensive 3 seconds rule forces defenders to stand right next to their man (within armslength) or vacate the paint - this is the only time in history the NBA has instituted this type of restriction on defenders.

Who would've thought it would be TODAY'S game where shading was eliminated entirely? (it's been eliminated in the paint)

[oarabbus]

Exactly, today is far superior.

[G0ATbe]

Todays era>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>90s

get over it:facepalm .

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Yeah, and the game is much better for it.

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

[iznogood]

They're still allowed to double and even double off the ball so effectively they are providing more help defense.
Why would you even want to shade someone in the paint anyway, the man is already in the paint and he is about to score, you send a double. Shading is used to prevent penetration or discourage entry passes, not to protect the rim after the attacker already penetrated perimeter defense.

[AkronAngel]

I want the OP violated in prison.

[warriorfan]

Yeah, and the game is much better for it.

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif



Yeah, everyone loves manufactured superstars. :oldlol:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Yeah, everyone loves manufactured superstars. :oldlol:

Let's practice reading comprehension.

Game


a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

Nothing about individual players, or manufactured superstars. It's the game of basketball that I'm clearly referring to. Rule changes that improve the flow of the game aren't a bad thing, it's just part of the sport evolving.

Modern era stay winning.

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

[Droid101]

Damn, modern era is dominating as usual.

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

[RRR3]

At this point, 3ball pretty much just talks to himself and the imaginary people who debate against his rants. Because most of us just skip his shitty posts and post gifs


http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

[3ball]

They're still allowed to double and even double off the ball so effectively they are providing more help defense.
Why would you even want to shade someone in the paint anyway, the man is already in the paint and he is about to score, you send a double. Shading is used to prevent penetration or discourage entry passes, not to protect the rim after the attacker already penetrated perimeter defense.
You aren't understanding the rules.. When today's defender is inside the paint, they must remain within armslength of their man at all times.. A man's arm is only 3 feet long, so defenders must stand right next to their man.. This means they can't camp under the rim while their man is 8 feet away on the block - they have to go stand right next to their man on the block and leave the rim/paint area open.

If today's defenders were allowed to remain in the paint while their man was far away and out of armslength reach, this would equal paint-camping, and it's the same thing as shading or zone.. Shading is simply playing off your man to help on another offensive player, while a zone is playing an area not a man - paint-camping is both of these things.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Rule changes have made the modern era showcase a superior brand of basketball.

You're finally on board with this, good job.

Modern era stay winning.

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

[3ball]

edit to prev post

[3ball]

Here are the NBA's official statements on defensive 3 seconds (the quote below is at the bottom of article):

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html

"The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration."
.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

You've posted that quote hundreds if not thousands of times. Find something new, spamming the same basic premise into multiple daily threads is really getting old. Especially because basketball as a game is better now than it ever was. This is why no one takes you seriously/bothers to read your full posts.

Modern era stay winning, cutting/passing/dribble penetration is where it's at. Much better brand of basketball.

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

[3ball]

Shading is used to prevent penetration or discourage entry passes, not to protect the rim after the attacker already penetrated perimeter defense.


Shading is used to do the bolded above: it's called paint-camping.. Paint-camping is defending a certain area while your man is in another area - so it's exactly the same thing as shading, only in the paint.

[iznogood]

You aren't understanding the rules.. When today's defender is inside the paint, they must remain within armslength of their man at all times.. A man's arm is only 3 feet long, so defenders must stand right next to their man.. This means they can't camp under the rim while their man is 8 feet away on the block - they have to go stand right next to their man on the block and leave the rim/paint area open.

If today's defenders were allowed to remain in the paint while their man was far away and out of armslength reach, this would equal paint-camping, and it's the same thing as shading or zone.. Shading is simply playing off your man to help on another offensive player, while a zone is playing an area not a man - paint-camping is both of these things.
"Their man" does not mean guarding the man they were initially assigned to, it just mean any man. That's why I think what I said remains true. Teams can double team the center in the paint without the ball and it is completely legal, because both of the players are guarding "their man". Only that it happens to be the same man. So they are effectively zoning in the paint and when the penetration comes, one or both of the players that doubled the center earlier will double team / triple team the penetrator.

The other important thing is that you need to remember shading is not meant to be used as a tool for rim protection or packing the paint, it is meant as a tool to discourage iso penetrations and entry passes on the block. What I'm saying is that shading is beneficial the most outside of the paint anyway and no arms length rule apply there.

Shading is used to do the bolded above: it's called paint-camping.. Paint-camping is defending a certain area while your man is in another area - so it's exactly the same thing as shading, only in the paint.
All paint-camping is shading and not all the shading is paint-camping.
Do you see the difference? Paint camping will only affect the ball handler as he is already very close to the rim. Shading can or does happen anywhere on the court. As I explained in the previous paragraph, players are allowed to stay very close to the rim by doubling the player without the ball close to the rim.

Also I do believe the armslength/actively guarding provision is not enforced today, the same way handchecking rule is not and also the way illegal defense often wasn't.
I'm just analizing the first clip I found when I put "lebron iso chicago" in youtube search:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig0DmAbgZcU#t=11s
Look at how Gasol sinks in the paint, stays there for almost 5 seconds paying no attention to Varejao until he has to box him out.
Look at Gasol's defense at 0:20, notice how it takes him less than a second to exit and reenter the paint.
Notice how Noah is shading in the paint at 0:34, how Gasol is shading in the paint at 0:40, how Kevin Love is shading in the paint at 1:20...
I honestly believe the absence of clogging the paint has just as much to do with improvement of 3 point shooting as it has to do with the actual rules.

[UK2K]

You've posted that quote hundreds if not thousands of times. Find something new, spamming the same basic premise into multiple daily threads is really getting old. Especially because basketball as a game is better now than it ever was. This is why no one takes you seriously/bothers to read your full posts.

Modern era stay winning, cutting/passing/dribble penetration is where it's at. Much better brand of basketball.

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif


The same way the NFL is forcing every team to run a spread offense now, thanks to rule changes.

Here, every team do this because it's the most effective way to win. We'll change the rules to ensure you play the exciting way.

[3ball]

Teams can double team the center in the paint without the ball and it is completely legal, because both of the players are within armslength of "their man". Only that it happens to be the same man.


Thanks for the response - now we've gotten somewhere - like you said, the armslength provision in the defensive 3 seconds rule says defenders in the paint must be within armslength of ANY offensive player, which enables double-teaming of players who don't have the ball.. However, double-teaming is not a zone - by definition, a zone is when a defender guards an area, not a man.. So when two defenders are forced to be within armslength of an offensive player, it's an overt double team, not a zone.

Otoh, a zone is what today's defenders AREN'T allowed to do in the paint - a defender is not allowed to stand under the rim or in the paint with no other offensive players around.. But that's what the paint-camping provision in Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed previous era defenders to do - they could stand in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere inside the 16 x 19 foot paint, or within 3 feet of either side.

Obviously, paint-camping has it's own advantages - it allows much more freedom and close proximity to defend a variety of attacks in the paint, as opposed to today's restrictions of having to either hug one offensive player or vacate the paint entirely.

Historically, the NBA has always made sure there were offsetting factors like this (i.e. paint-camping versus off-ball double-teaming) - they never just gave the defense EVERYTHING or gave the offense everything, which is why league-wide ORtg has remained between 106-108 for the last 30 years (other than a period between 1998 and 2004).

[sportjames23]

I want the OP violated in prison.


:biggums:

[iznogood]

I believe there's both "overt double teaming" and paint camping today, even though the rules don't allow paint camping. I believe your interpretation of the rule is correct but I think it's pretty obvious that the rule is not being enforced. None of the situations in the video I linked count as doubling the man in my opinion so that efficiently makes them zoning. And all of those are common situations in modern basketball. So I don't think it's either hug your man or get out of the paint, at least the game is not officiated this way. Maybe you can share videos of some calls where defender actually gets called for zoning in the paint.

[navy]

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

[24-Inch_Chrome]

The same way the NFL is forcing every team to run a spread offense now, thanks to rule changes.

Here, every team do this because it's the most effective way to win. We'll change the rules to ensure you play the exciting way.

Modern era stay winning.

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gifhttp://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gifhttp://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/57929f36881400da1070697af1d87f38.gif


Look at Joakim Noah - he has to pay attention to Love at the 3-point line, so he can't contest Varejao - if this was a previous era, Noah wouldn't be guarding a 3-point shooter like Love.. Noah's man would be in the paint or very close to the it, allowing Noah to paint-camp right under the rim and contest Varejao.

People generally disregard spacing - they forget that if any player from today was transported back to a previous era, that player would not have anyone spreading the floor for him, so they would face packed paints just like all players did at the time.. Teams only took two 3-pointers per game in 1985 - that wouldn't change just because a player went back in time.

Btw, when a weakside defender is guarding a player who is behind the corner or sideline 3-point line (like Joakim Noah is guarding Kevin Love above), the rules of man-to-man defense outlined in the Illegal Defense Guidelines explicitly allows Noah to sag off all the way into the paint, where he can remain for 3 seconds (just like he can today, but opted not to in the GIF).


2a. Weakside defenders may be in a defensive position within the "outside lane" with no time limit, and within the "Inside lane" for 2.9 seconds.


People mistakenly think man-to-man defense didn't allow previous eras defenders to sag off offensive players who were behind the 3-point line - you have to understand - people don't understand how dumb they are when they say this.. It's basketball basics, it's basketball 101 - defenders could sag of their man, and it's considered bad defense NOT to.. The amazing thing is that on literally 100% of plays, defenders in previous eras sagged off 3-point shooters - like, there wouldn't be anything in previous era footage that would back up the notion that they couldn't sag off.. And yet people like to repeat this over and over.. :facepalm
.

[3ball]

I believe there's both "overt double teaming" and paint camping today, even though the rules don't allow paint camping.


I'm sorry, but this is a blatant untruth - Show me then - show me plays where guys are paint-camping under the rim or in the paint and packing the paint... god it's such a lie

and that's the thing - i can show a million clips of packed paints from previous eras because it happened on every single play and was legal, but there are no such clips from today.

what you have said about today's paints being packed is the exact opposite of the truth - anyone can watch the games and see - the paint is kept clear on every single possession or every single game -

in the very clip you pointed me to of Lebron passing to Varejao, the paint is being kept clear - there is NO ONE under the rim or in the paint, and that's how it ALWAYS is... so i'm not sure what game you're watching seriously.

[iznogood]

I don't remember posting that gif, it doesn't have anything to do with I was trying to say, but anyway...I agree with you that the area under the rim is not as packed as it was before the rule changes. Moreso, this is exactly what I wrote in one of my previous posts - I believe the main reason is improved 3-point shooting and not the change of rules. Or it might be the other way around, but we seem to agree that 3-point shooting is an important factor.

However, I do not agree with the statment in the topic of this thread. Eventhough the zoning in the paint is not permitted by the rules you can see it's happening all the time. And I'm not talking about doubling the man without the ball, I'm referring to true zoning (like the examples in the video).

If you don't agree with this I'm going to have to ask you to characterise the types of defenses shown by both Bulls' and Cavs' players I was referring to in the video I linked.

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/57929f36881400da1070697af1d87f38.gif


Look at how Gasol paying no attention to Varejao



Fans erroneously think previous era defenders couldn't sag way back on screen roll coverage - Gasol's defense above is no different from previous eras, except previous eras had no spacing, so it was more congested:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b65300f8b710f908d7b963f480a3e929.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/lDO68O.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b160bc7402615f75b7d7e12520d4ca3b.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/0jAxfn.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/sJyGot.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-06-2015/9SEPQO.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a3f97fb5ca224f7de5850bfd10a8abc3.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/981db4f4b419af8380f2d2d6fcab498b.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/39fa98ad00d6a10b4c300cf02030546d.gif


Today's paint-camping ban along with spacing creates a greater need for flooding and shading than previous eras.. Although these partial zones outside the paint are easy to beat for perimeter players, they provide a bandaid to offset today's spacing, paint-camping ban, and hand-check ban, so defensive effectiveness doesn't fall off a cliff in comparison to previous eras.

With no spacing in previous eras, defenders were in MUCH closer proximity, so shading and flooding happened quite naturally - obviously, with the invariably slower bigs coming away from the rim to shade in MJ's wheelhouse (the perimeter), he blew by and destroyed them quite easily.

[iznogood]

I'm sorry, but this is a blatant untruth - Show me then - show me plays where guys are paint-camping under the rim or in the paint and packing the paint... god it's such a lie

and that's the thing - i can show a million clips of packed paints from previous eras because it happened on every single play and was legal, but there are no such clips from today.

what you have said about today's paints being packed is the exact opposite of the truth - anyone can watch the games and see - the paint is kept clear on every single possession or every single game -

in the very clip you pointed me to of Lebron passing to Varejao, the paint is being kept clear - there is NO ONE under the rim or in the paint, and that's how it ALWAYS is... so i'm not sure what game you're watching seriously.
I never pointed you to that clip in the first place. I also never claimed the paint is packed, I just stated there's still zoning in the paint, wether you want to call it zone camping or not.
OK I played my link from the beginning now and I see what you might be confused about. Please ignore the first play since this is thread is not about zoning pick and rolls, which was never illegal. The play I was referring to starts at 11 seconds mark.

[navy]

Modern Era stays winning
http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

[24-Inch_Chrome]

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

[3ball]

.
More of MJ destroying shading (on screen roll action):


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/wSWEiH.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/NwamL4.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/o_sv9S.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/pIfj1X.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/a_7wTz.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/N1zmcy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/COzY74.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/kgwDAW.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4d4d2f5f70b04674aca93ac46599771c.gif

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b209aeddf6bfaaa9fcaed8eea3c72c65.gif

However, I do not agree with the statment in the topic of this thread. Eventhough the zoning in the paint is not permitted by the rules you can see it's happening all the time.


Zoning/shading/flooding is all happening OUTSIDE the paint - you never see anyone standing in there for an extended period of time just patrolling the lane with their man far out of armslength like the GIF above..

The above GIF was standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11204463&postcount=38)..

You can't compare that level of paint-camping and zone to today's defenders that spend 2 seconds in the paint and then they have to tippy-toe out because they aren't within armslength of anyone.. :facepalm:... they look like ballerinas with the tippytoeing... :lol... otoh, previous eras were like statues in there.. night and day

[iznogood]

Zoning/shading/flooding is all happening OUTSIDE the paint - you never see anyone standing in there for an extended period of time just patrolling the lane with their man far out of armslength like the GIF above..

The above GIF was standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11204463&postcount=38)..

You can't compare that level of paint-camping and zone to today's defenders that spend 2 seconds in the paint and then they have to tippy-toe out because they aren't within armslength of anyone.. :facepalm:... they look like ballerinas with the tippytoeing... :lol... otoh, previous eras were like statues in there.. night and day
I never tried to imply the level of zoning in the paint was the same. Actually I said it myself in my previous post that the paint today is obviously not as packed as it was in the previous eras.

However, by saying the level of zoning in the paint now and then can not be compared you just acknowledged zoning in the paint is still a part of today's game. I can also see you added "(on screen roll action)" which was not a part of your gimmick before, so I guess you realised you lost this this argument. I guess you'll spend the next couple of days hiding in your mom's basement thinking about how to pack this in your agenda and then come up with something new. Here, I got you a ticket:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1355566173_ltrain.jpg

[3ball]

I never tried to imply the level of zoning in the paint was the same. Actually I said it myself in my previous post that the paint today is obviously not as packed as it was in the previous eras.

However, by saying the level of zoning in the paint now and then can not be compared you just acknowledged zoning in the paint is still a part of today's game. I can also see you added "(on screen roll action)" which was not a part of your gimmick before, so I guess you realised you lost this this argument.


i added "on screen roll action" because that was the exact type of play you had specified with gasol and varejao.. i try to keep it simple for you guys by making sure i post identical plays, but keep deluding yourself.

the only reason i implied anything about zone in the paint is because players DO have 2.9 seconds to do whatever they want in there - so they will "show" for a split second or two before having to tippy-toe their ballerina ass out of the paint.. at this point, the paint returns to it's default, clear state, just like the NBA intended with the defensive 3 seconds rule.

but maybe you think 2.9 seconds = "with no time restriction"

you and others are clueless regarding basic things about the game and can't understand anything that's not simple, so it wouldn't shock me AT ALL if you thought 2.9 seconds = no time restriction... :confusedshrug:

[G0ATbe]

Kobe destroying Jordan:
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gif