Why could Kobe beat prime Duncan, but Lebron can't beat old Duncan?

[sportjames23]

:confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

I wanna see this one on one matchup of Kobe vs Duncan and LeBron vs Duncan.... Oh wait, it were teams? Oh wait, and the 2014 Spurs are the best Spurs version there is? No wonder you didn't adress them as team, since LeBron actually played the superior versions (for perhaps 3 years in a row now).

[Real14]

Yea maybe because Kobe is a better player and have more heart than lebron right?

[jzek]

Kobe had Shaq, one of the top 3/top 5 centers of all time.

Lebron had Mo Williams first and then a banged up Wade + Bosh the second time. None of these players had the same impact that the Diesel had.

Not a fair comparison.

[Heavincent]

Kobe had Shaq, one of the top 3/top 5 centers of all time.

Lebron had Mo Williams first and then a banged up Wade + Bosh the second time. None of these players had the same impact that the Diesel had.

Not a fair comparison.

Kobe didn't have Shaq when he kicked the shit out of the defending champion Spurs in 2008.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm sure Shaq having series of 27/13, 21/12, and 23/15 helped. The one time LeBron got even decent help from a teammate against the Spurs (Wade in 2013), he beat them

[red1]

:confusedshrug:
negged

[Im so nba'd out]

one was riding on the shoulders of giants (shaq)

while the other was rigging the deck so he doesn't have to play against duncan

[DonDadda59]

Kobe didn't have Shaq when he kicked the shit out of the defending champion Spurs in 2008.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-11-2015/oVd5YH.gif

[Kblaze8855]

03 and 04 are probably the only 2 years you can say both Duncan and Kobe were at their prime levels and the best players on their teams when they played each other(though many would argue it was still Shaqs team in 03 and I suspect some would argue Kobe over shaq in 01 though few thought so at the time). Prime duncan was a 20/10 player for 8-9 years. He had taken the step back before the Lakers really got going with Kobe/Pau. You could argue 08 was prime Duncan....but it was his worst or second worst season to that point. Duncan stopped being the bigtime scorer big minutes do it all guy long ago.

03 is the only year both of them were just at the very tops of their games....doing the things that made them the legends they are. Kobe with 50 point streaks....40 point months...all that. Duncan MVP....finals MVP...scoring big.

That was peak Duncan vs Kobe in what....his 3rd best season? Maybe second best. With Shaq doing 27/11 on the same team in the last year of his true Shaq production.

Tim took that team on with some straight up role players. Every player on that roster Tim aside was years from being a star, never would be one, or years removed from being one.

It was a group of hard playing role players who needed everything Tim had. And he gave it. He put in work every night...every round...won them that ring with less help than anyone but 94 Hakeem got in my lifetime.

Id take that Duncan over Kobe or Lebron. Neither of them have made straight up "Meh" level teams talent wise do what he did. Lebron won games with "Meh" talent but didnt really win in the playoffs.

Tim was out there with a 7ppg adjusting to the NBA Manu, Young Tony Parker getting benched in the 4th for Speedy Claxton, and David Robinson having 9/5 nights just trying to hold off retirement for another week.

Tim was working miracles for a while there.

[Im so nba'd out]

2008 duncan wasnt prime duncan :facepalm

[sportjames23]

Yes because basketball is a 1on1 game. Dumb thread.


Jimmies rustled.

[GimmeThat]

Same reason as to why LeBron's rookie year stats doesnt scream prodigy.

[navy]

Jimmies rustled.
Is this the new rent free when people cant think of a legit response? :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Kblaze, how was Kobe better than Shaq in 2004 :wtf:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

2 top 10 vs 1 top 10 and didn't even sweep.

:roll:

[ImKobe]

Kobe had Shaq, one of the top 3/top 5 centers of all time.

Lebron had Mo Williams first and then a banged up Wade + Bosh the second time. None of these players had the same impact that the Diesel had.

Not a fair comparison.

Kobe demolished the defending champions San Antonio Spurs in 2008 with Gasol playing like ass in the series. Crossing Manu and finishing over Duncan like it's nothing. **** outta here.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

03 and 04 are probably the only 2 years you can say both Duncan and Kobe were at their prime levels and the best players on their teams when they played each other(though many would argue it was still Shaqs team in 03 and I suspect some would argue Kobe over shaq in 01 though few thought so at the time). Prime duncan was a 20/10 player for 8-9 years. He had taken the step back before the Lakers really got going with Kobe/Pau. You could argue 08 was prime Duncan....but it was his worst or second worst season to that point. Duncan stopped being the bigtime scorer big minutes do it all guy long ago.

03 is the only year both of them were just at the very tops of their games....doing the things that made them the legends they are. Kobe with 50 point streaks....40 point months...all that. Duncan MVP....finals MVP...scoring big.

That was peak Duncan vs Kobe in what....his 3rd best season? Maybe second best. With Shaq doing 27/11 on the same team in the last year of his true Shaq production.

Tim took that team on with some straight up role players. Every player on that roster Tim aside was years from being a star, never would be one, or years removed from being one.

It was a group of hard playing role players who needed everything Tim had. And he gave it. He put in work every night...every round...won them that ring with less help than anyone but 94 Hakeem got in my lifetime.

Id take that Duncan over Kobe or Lebron. Neither of them have made straight up "Meh" level teams talent wise do what he did. Lebron won games with "Meh" talent but didnt really win in the playoffs.

Tim was out there with a 7ppg adjusting to the NBA Manu, Young Tony Parker getting benched in the 4th for Speedy Claxton, and David Robinson having 9/5 nights just trying to hold off retirement for another week.

Tim was working miracles for a while there.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

:applause: :applause: :applause:

:cheers:

[inclinerator]

phil jackson

[Im Still Ballin]

Jordan/90's fans are the narrative era fans. They suck up the media driven agendas better than any others... Not surprising because most of them grew up in a bubble-wrapped time period when everyone believed what they were told and the biggest controversy was whether Bill had sexual relations with Monica. Yahtzee. It's bold. Froyo.

[Im Still Ballin]

Jordan/90's fans are the narrative era fans. They suck up the media driven agendas better than any others... Not surprising because most of them grew up in a bubble-wrapped time period when everyone believed what they were told and the biggest controversy was whether Bill had sexual relations with Monica. Yahtzee. It's bold. Froyo.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/kiss.gif

[Jacks3]

yeah, 2003 Duncan only had the best defensive supporting cast in basketball and the best coach in the league. the fact that he beat a old, weary/exhausted laker team that was coming off three straight titles, and had a horrific supporting cast outside their two stars is truly miraculous. oh, and beating the mavs with dirk missing the final three games, plus perhaps the worst finals teams of all time in the 03 nets. truly miraculous stuff. :bowdown:

[BlakFrankWhite]

It can be unanimously agreed


2014 spurs >>>> 2002,2004,2008 spurs

[Real14]

LeBron's rookie year stats doesnt scream prodigy.

http://i.imgur.com/rMRKlBa.gif

[Real14]

Kblaze, how was Kobe better than Shaq in 2004 :wtf:
:facepalm

[SugarHill]

:facepalm
How was he better? Kobe had an off year for his standards.

[Real14]

How was he better? Kobe had an off year for his standards.
Kobe was still better bro.

[T_L_P]

yeah, 2003 Duncan only had the best defensive supporting cast in basketball and the best coach in the league. the fact that he beat a old, weary/exhausted laker team that was coming off three straight titles, and had a horrific supporting cast outside their two stars is truly miraculous. oh, and beating the mavs with dirk missing the final three games, plus perhaps the worst finals teams of all time in the 03 nets. truly miraculous stuff. :bowdown:

03 Spurs with Duncan on the bench: 104 DRtg (league average).

Shit, they weren't in the best defensive team with him (they were #3).

Historical revisionism at its finest. His "best defensive supporting cast" comprised of 38-year-old, broken down Robinson (still elite), Bowen (elite), Jackson (good) and Malik Rose (good). Claxton was good too but he was basically a 10 MPG player.

That defensive cast wasn't so great without Tim making things a thousand times easier for them, and they weren't even the league's best defense with him on the floor. :facepalm

[greatest-ever]

That was a good 1 on 1 game they had.

[SugarHill]

Kobe was still better bro.

Kobe: 24/5.5/5 on 44 FG%
Shaq: 21.5/11.5/3 on 58 FG%

Kobe playoffs: 24.5/5/5.5 on 41 FG%
Shaq playoffs: 21.5/13/2.5 on 59 FG%

Kobe finals: 23/4/3 on 37 FG%
Shaq finals: 27/11/2 on 62 FG%

In what universe was Kobe better? :whatever:

[Indian guy]

LeBron only wishes he got to face some of those Spurs teams(01-04) Kobe beat. Those were essentially 1-man offenses that were very easy to contain. Just start hounding Duncan and the whole team would crumble. This was before Parker and Manu really took off. Of course, even those Big 3 teams don't really compare to the juggernaut Spurs became once Pop completely retooled their offense following the 2010 season. The 2012-current Spurs, with their GOAT combination of shooting and ball movement, to go along with Parker and TD's solid interior games, are an entirely different animal. If the given the choice, who do you think LeBron would rather face in the Finals this year - the '15 Spurs or the ones Kobe was beating from 01-04? He, and anyone else for that matter, would choose the latter every time.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

03 Spurs with Duncan on the bench: 104 DRtg (league average).

Shit, they weren't in the best defensive team with him (they were #3).

That defensive cast wasn't so great without Tim making things a thousand times easier for them, and they weren't even the league's best defense with him on the floor. :facepalm

:applause:

[iTare]

Kobe: 24/5.5/5 on 44 FG%
Shaq: 21.5/11.5/3 on 58 FG%

Kobe playoffs: 24.5/5/5.5 on 41 FG%
Shaq playoffs: 21.5/13/2.5 on 59 FG%

Kobe finals: 23/4/3 on 37 FG%
Shaq finals: 27/11/2 on 62 FG%

In what universe was Kobe better? :whatever:
Get his ass!

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Kobe: 24/5.5/5 on 44 FG%
Shaq: 21.5/11.5/3 on 58 FG%

Kobe playoffs: 24.5/5/5.5 on 41 FG%
Shaq playoffs: 21.5/13/2.5 on 59 FG%

Kobe finals: 23/4/3 on 37 FG%
Shaq finals: 27/11/2 on 62 FG%

In what universe was Kobe better? :whatever:

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

[Jacks3]

Historical revisionism at its finest. His "best defensive supporting cast" comprised of 38-year-old, broken down Robinson (still elite), Bowen (elite), Jackson (good) and Malik Rose (good). Claxton was good too but he was basically a 10 MPG player.

That defensive cast wasn't so great without Tim making things a thousand times easier for them, and they weren't even the league's best defense with him on the floor. :facepalm

Robinson was still one of the best defenders in the game. Bowen was the best perimeter defender in basketball. Manu was very good and has always been ridiculously underrated defensively. Jackson was good, and so was Malik Rose.

And they had the best defensive coach in the league.

Yeah, that's easily the best defensive support in the league.

People acting like he had anywhere near a bad supporting cast. Now that's revisionist history. Nobody was saying that shit in 03.

[T_L_P]

Robinson was still one of the best defenders in the game. Bowen was the best perimeter defender in basketball. Manu was very good and has always been ridiculously underrated defensively. Jackson was good, and so was Malik Rose.

And they had the best defensive coach in the league.

Yeah, that's easily the best defensive support in the league.

People acting like he had anywhere near a bad supporting cast. Now that's revisionist history. Nobody was saying that shit in 03.

Gotta love how you leave out the two numbers (defensive performance with Tim and defensive performance without him, i.e. strength of cast) that say you are completely wrong.

:oldlol:

[Demitri98]

Kobe had Shaq, one of the top 3/top 5 centers of all time.

Lebron had Mo Williams first and then a banged up Wade + Bosh the second time. None of these players had the same impact that the Diesel had.

Not a fair comparison.
He didn't even have that in 07

his 2nd option was Larry Hughes :facepalm

[Jacks3]

Gotta love how you think raw +/- means anything.

Please. Name a better defensive cast. You can't.

Dude had two of the best defenders in the entire freaking league, the best defensive coach in basketball, and a several other good defenders...but somehow he didn't have a great supporting cast defensively.

You Duncan stans are something else. :lol

[mehyaM24]

itt morons using raw +/- to give FULL credit to the individual.

stop using team stats to analyze individuals. idiots.

[Jacks3]

Kobe: 24/5.5/5 on 44 FG%
Shaq: 21.5/11.5/3 on 58 FG%

Kobe playoffs: 24.5/5/5.5 on 41 FG%
Shaq playoffs: 21.5/13/2.5 on 59 FG%

Kobe finals: 23/4/3 on 37 FG%
Shaq finals: 27/11/2 on 62 FG%

In what universe was Kobe better? :whatever:

RS:
Kobe: 24.0/5.5/5.1/1.7/0.4/55.1 TS/112 ORTG/29% USG
Shaq: 21.5/11.5/2.9/0.5/2.5/57.8 TS/109 ORTG/26% USG

First three rounds:
Kobe: 25.1/5.8/5.3/1.9/52.1 TS/106 ORTG/30% USG
Shaq: 20.0/13.9/2.8/0.3/3.4/54.7 TS/107 ORTG/24% USG

lmao @ acting like Bryant doesn't have a great case.

You're going to have put way too much stock in a 5 game finals series where
the Lakers lost by an average margin of 14 PPG and the team outside of Shaq/Bryant shot 33% for that case.

[Real14]

Kobe: 24/5.5/5 on 44 FG%
Shaq: 21.5/11.5/3 on 58 FG%

Kobe playoffs: 24.5/5/5.5 on 41 FG%
Shaq playoffs: 21.5/13/2.5 on 59 FG%

Kobe finals: 23/4/3 on 37 FG%
Shaq finals: 27/11/2 on 62 FG%

In what universe was Kobe better? :whatever:

Kobe was a better scorer obviously:coleman:

[Real14]

Get his ass!
He didn't do shit:coleman:Your team is tha jazz right?

[Real14]

http://media.tumblr.com/e16dd16f4de841b391f118f72714a54e/tumblr_inline_nbat9kBEXc1satqni.gif

3rd round virgins tho:applause:

[coin24]

Experience from beating all the 50 win teams, something bran has rarely done

[DirkLegend41]

LeBron had better teammates than Kobe had against the Spurs and LBJ still couldn't beat the old Spurs.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

3rd round virgins tho:applause:

Duncan > LeBron/Kobe >>>>>>>>>>> Melo though. :applause:

[Kblaze8855]

Robinson was still one of the best defenders in the game. Bowen was the best perimeter defender in basketball. Manu was very good and has always been ridiculously underrated defensively. Jackson was good, and so was Malik Rose.

And they had the best defensive coach in the league.

Yeah, that's easily the best defensive support in the league.

People acting like he had anywhere near a bad supporting cast. Now that's revisionist history. Nobody was saying that shit in 03.

Yes they were. Laker fans were calling for the fourth ring here partly because Tim had nobody to help him and the Lakers still had the duo. We were already talking about it as the least talented championship team of all time the day they won.

Great chemistry does not mean the players were very good individuals.

The second best player on that team would be like the best player on the Chicago Bulls right now.

You could argue final season Robinson as the 4th or 5th best player in the Bulls frontcourt. Mirotic contributed more to the Bulls in the last month or two than that version of David Robinson could have.

Pop himself has said that their offense at that time was just a dumping in to Duncan and getting out of the way.

He had to carry that team on offense and still be the main reason they were great on defense.

The list of people to do that and succeed at the level he did with that little talent is incredibly short. Even Walton had Maurice Lucas in his prime. Nobody but Duncan on that team was playing basketball at a level worth remembering. Bowen is the closest.

Rest of those people? If the level they played on in 2003 was the general level of their careers there would be no reason to bring any of them up again or remember they existed.

[Doranku]

Probably because LeBron can be effectively guarded in the playoffs by Boris f*cking Diaw

[Real14]

Duncan > LeBron/Kobe >>>>>>>>>>> Melo though. :applause:
Duncan better than Kobe?:biggums: :roll:

[Real14]

LeBron had better teammates than Kobe had against the Spurs and LBJ still couldn't beat the old Spurs.
Ether:pimp:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Duncan better than Kobe?:biggums: :roll:

Duncan is an arguable top-5 all-time player, of course Duncan > Kobe.

They're all better individually than Melo or the entire Knicks franchise though. :applause:

[PsychoBe]

03' was duncan's peak, but it wasn't kobe's peak.

even still, kobe dropped 40+ point games multiple times against the spurs in the post-season.

bran hasn't done it once.

[sportjames23]

Probably because LeBron can be effectively guarded in the playoffs by Boris f*cking Diaw


Still can't believe how Diaw had Bron shook.

[DonDadda59]

LeBron only wishes he got to face some of those Spurs teams(01-04) Kobe beat. Those were essentially 1-man offenses that were very easy to contain. Just start hounding Duncan and the whole team would crumble. This was before Parker and Manu really took off. Of course, even those Big 3 teams don't really compare to the juggernaut Spurs became once Pop completely retooled their offense following the 2010 season. The 2012-current Spurs, with their GOAT combination of shooting and ball movement, to go along with Parker and TD's solid interior games, are an entirely different animal. If the given the choice, who do you think LeBron would rather face in the Finals this year - the '15 Spurs or the ones Kobe was beating from 01-04? He, and anyone else for that matter, would choose the latter every time.

Bron shot 35% against the Spurs and got his ass swept in '07 bruh. But that post 2010 old man ball movement is the reason he can't beat them without a miracle from Jesus himself. :whatever:

[LongLiveTheKing]

So LeBron didn't beat Duncan in 2013?

[sportjames23]

Bron shot 35% against the Spurs and got his ass swept in '07 bruh. But that post 2010 old man ball movement is the reason he can't beat them without a miracle from Jesus himself. :whatever:


http://i.imgur.com/hRO7VdU.png

[Hey Yo]

Bron shot 35% against the Spurs and got his ass swept in '07 bruh. But that post 2010 old man ball movement is the reason he can't beat them without a miracle from Jesus himself. :whatever:
Poor Don. Just another MJ stan always worried about LeBron.

MJ watching the Finals at age 22. LeBron playing in them at 22

[sportjames23]

Poor Don. Just another MJ stan always worried about LeBron.

MJ watching the Finals at age 22. LeBron playing in them at 22


MJ winning the Finals in his first try.

Hebron watching Duncan win at his expense his first time.

[Hey Yo]

MJ winning the Finals in his first try.

Hebron watching Duncan win at his expense his first time.
And 5yrs older than LeBron

[Jacks3]

Pop himself has said that their offense at that time was just a dumping in to Duncan and getting out of the way.

He had to carry that team on offense and still be the main reason they were great on defense.

The list of people to do that and succeed at the level he did with that little talent is incredibly short. Even Walton had Maurice Lucas in his prime. Nobody but Duncan on that team was playing basketball at a level worth remembering. Bowen is the closest.

Rest of those people? If the level they played on in 2003 was the general level of their careers there would be no reason to bring any of them up again or remember they existed.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing. Nobody is denying that Duncan was incredible and that his offensive supporting cast was lacking offensively.

I mean, the Spurs offense in the 2003 playoffs was literally at league-average (103.7 ORTG). They were utterly mediocre.

So how the hell did they win?

Well their defense was absolutely freaking amazing. In fact, it was freaking GOAT level. They had a 97.7 DRTG in 24 postseason games. That's insane.

Was Duncan the biggest reason for that? yeah.

But they also had the best perimeter defender in basketball, and Robinson was still one of the best defenders in the league. Then they had a bunch of other good defenders (Manu, Jackson, Rose,) and the best defensive coach in the league. Every single team in the league right now would love to have any of those guys on their team, and every franchise would kill for a coach like Pop.

They won with defense and he had a great supporting cast defensively.

Period.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe had less help in the 08 WCF than Lebron did in the 2014 finals and Kobe still dismantled the Spurs

[navy]

Kobe had less help in the 08 WCF than Lebron did in the 2014 finals and Kobe still dismantled the Spurs
The 2014 Spurs were easily better than the 08 Spurs.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The 2014 Spurs were easily better than the 08 Spurs.

no they were not "easily better" you bran stans overrate the hell out of those 2014 Spurs, the same Spurs who looked very beatable in 2/3 WC playoff series.

08 Spurs had a younger Duncan, Parker coming off a FMVP, Manu was putting up 20/5/5 and having his GOAT regular season and they still had Bowen.. 08 Spurs were more talented.


And Kobe got even less help than Lebron and Kobe still destroyed the defending champions.. yall complain about "Lebron not getting enough help in the finals"

well in those finals Lebron's 3rd leading scorer was putting up more points on 10% higher FG% than Kobe's 2nd option was in the 08 WCF

[greatest-ever]

Kobe had less help in the 08 WCF than Lebron did in the 2014 finals and Kobe still dismantled the Spurs
This is laughably false. Pau was playing way better than anyone on Lebron's cast, plus the 08 Spurs weren't nearly as good as the 2014 version.

[TheMarkMadsen]

This is laughably false. Pau was playing way better than anyone on Lebron's cast, plus the 08 Spurs weren't nearly as good as the 2014 version.


ok..


Pau Gasol 08 WCF: 13 points on 44%

Chris Bosh 2014 finals: 14ppg on 55%

next you're gonna tell me that Kobe had some type of great front court in 08 too

:roll: :roll:

[mehyaM24]

2005 spurs > 2007 > 2014 > 2008 > 2013 > 2003

my unbiased opinion

[ArbitraryWater]

Manu was injured that series, dummie.

And the 2014 Spurs were far better. 2008 Spurs got hot from 3 in Game 7 in New Orleans and stole the series.

[mehyaM24]

Manu was injured that series, dummie.

And the 2014 Spurs were far better. 2008 Spurs got hot from 3 in Game 7 in New Orleans and stole the series.
manu still played. who cares.

[sportjames23]

And 5yrs older than LeBron


Don't change the fact that 6/6 >>>>>> 2/5, doe.

[Jacks3]

ok..


Pau Gasol 08 WCF: 13 points on 44%

Chris Bosh 2014 finals: 14ppg on 55%

next you're gonna tell me that Kobe had some type of great front court in 08 too

:roll: :roll:

Damn. :lol

[ImKobe]

This is laughably false. Pau was playing way better than anyone on Lebron's cast, plus the 08 Spurs weren't nearly as good as the 2014 version.

08 Duncan >> 14 Duncan

Gasol against the Spurs in 08 averaged 13\10 with 13 FGA while Duncan averaged 22\17\5 with a 20\20 game and a triple double game in that series, Kobe OTOH averaged 29 ppg on 53% shooting

[navy]

no they were not "easily better" you bran stans overrate the hell out of those 2014 Spurs, the same Spurs who looked very beatable in 2/3 WC playoff series.

08 Spurs had a younger Duncan, Parker coming off a FMVP, Manu was putting up 20/5/5 for the season and they still had Bowen.. 08 Spurs were more talented.


And Kobe got even less help than Lebron and Kobe still destroyed the defending champions.. yall complain about "Lebron not getting enough help in the finals"

well in those finals Lebron's 3rd leading scorer was putting up more points on 10% higher FG% than Kobe's 2nd option was in the 08 WCF
Stop it. The 2014 had the best record in the nba and were the top seed overall. They only struggled in the first round perhaps.

So why did that 08 team win less games if they were so much more talented? Since when did people erroneously look at names that way and not the way the teams were?

All of those are irrelevant numbers. The 2014 Spurs were top ten in offense and defense. The 08 Spurs were just an average offensive team.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Pop and the Spurs have a hard time against Kobe because of how complete a player he is offensively, that 08 WCF was a thing of beauty, the way Kobe led the team, his closing that series was just on another level.. you can't shake this guys confidence unlike Lebrons who confidence is easily rattled

and he was doing this against Bruce Bowen on the perimeter and Duncan inside.. a Duncan who was still putting up 22/17/5 in this series..


Kobe also didn't get shook against the Spurs and showed the type of composure in the final minutes that not many players have ever been capable of


"Watching Kobe Bryant down the stretch, that was a special performance. That is one, if you are a basketball fan, you put in as a demonstration to show kids what to do because the composure he had down the stretch...in the last four minutes of the game there has only been one other player in my lifetime who I have seen do what he did in the last four minutes and his name is Michael Jordan. And now the comparisons do start because I've never seen anybody be that composed in that stressed environment besides him...This is one of the greatest performances I've seen." Magic Johnson

talking about game 5 that series

[navy]

Magic Johnson quotes now? Bruh...

[Legends66NBA7]

2005 spurs > 2007 > 2014 > 2008 > 2013 > 2003

my unbiased opinion

Where do you rank the 2006 Spurs ?

I would rank them in the middle of that group or even over the 2014 Spurs. 2004 Spurs were also better than 2003.

[Hey Yo]

ok..


Pau Gasol 08 WCF: 13 points on 44%

Chris Bosh 2014 finals: 14ppg on 55%

next you're gonna tell me that Kobe had some type of great front court in 08 too

:roll: :roll:
Pau avg. 13-10 for the series. Bosh 14 and 5.

Plus Odom avg 13-10 in that 08 series.

Not hard to decide which stats you would want as a coach.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Pau avg. 13-10 for the series. Bosh 14 and 5.

Plus Odom avg 13-10 in that 08 series.

Not hard to decide which stats you would want as a coach.

Wade: 15/4/3/2 on 44%


So both of Lebron's 2nd & 3rd scoring options were scoring more than Kobe's on better efficiency.

Kobe was also missing Bynum for the series and was having Vlad Ramonovic as his starting PF, also was missing Ariza and had some dude named Sasha as his 6th man.

Go back and watch that series, then go watch the 2014 finals and you'll see how one guy can score 2 points more per game on less effeciency while having 20x the impact as the other guy...

[mehyaM24]

Where do you rank the 2006 Spurs ?

I would rank them in the middle of that group or even over the 2014 Spurs. 2004 Spurs were also better than 2003.
i have the somewhere in the middle too. definitely above 2003 & 2013.

the 2014 team doesn't choke away a game 7. no matter how good dirk was.

[greatest-ever]

08 Duncan >> 14 Duncan

Gasol against the Spurs in 08 averaged 13\10 with 13 FGA while Duncan averaged 22\17\5 with a 20\20 game and a triple double game in that series, Kobe OTOH averaged 29 ppg on 53% shooting
You are not giving much context here. The spurs in the 2014 Finals were firing on all cylinders while the heat's defense didnt show up at all. And if you want go bring up stats Kobe was a 29 6 4 59 ts%, Lebron was 28 8 4 on 68 ts% he did his part. If you think Kobe in place of Lebron would've beat that spurs team you are lacking objectivity entirely.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

You are not giving much context here. The spurs in the 2014 Finals were firing on all cylinders while the heat's defense didnt show up at all. And if you want go bring up stats Kobe was a 29 6 4 59 ts%, Lebron was 28 8 4 on 68 ts% he did his part. If you think Kobe in place of Lebron would've beat that spurs team you are lacking objectivity entirely.

Look at his username. He has no objectivity. He's just another Kobe stan.

[greatest-ever]

Wade: 15/4/3/2 on 44%


So both of Lebron's 2nd & 3rd scoring options were scoring more than Kobe's on better efficiency.

Kobe was also missing Bynum for the series and was having Vlad Ramonovic as his starting PF, also was missing Ariza and had some dude named Sasha as his 6th man.

Go back and watch that series, then go watch the 2014 finals and you'll see how one guy can score 2 points more per game on less effeciency while having 20x the impact as the other guy...
Pointing to Wade's stats is dumb he was complete trash in basically 3/5 of those games and his defense was a huge negative.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Pointing to Wade's stats is dumb he was complete trash in basically 3/5 of those games and his defense was a huge negative.

he pointed to Odom who wasn't any good either so why wouldn't I bring up Wade when Wade was scoring more on better efficiency than Odom?

and that doesn't change the fact that Kobe was missing 2 starters, meanwhile his healthy starters played like shit and he still overcame that to beat the defending champion spurs

[kennethgriffin]

kobes stats vs prime duncan

2001 playoffs ( 4 game sweep )

33.3ppg, 7.0rpg, 7.0apg, 51.4%fgs

2002 playoffs ( 5 game pounding )

26.2ppg, 5.4rpg, 4.8apg, 45.5%fgs

2004 playoffs ( 6 game victory )

26.3ppg, 6.3rpg, 5.8apg, 46.2%fgs

2008 playoffs ( 5 game pounding )

29.2ppg, 5.6rpg, 3.8apg, 53.3%fgs





( 3 of the 4 duncan had home court advantage and still lost )



kobe owns duncan in the playoffs.. period

lebron... not so much

[Budadiiii]

2012 Spurs were the best version of the Spurs.

started off RED HOT winning 10 straight in the playoffs. (Can they go 16-0?????)

UNTIL Durant, at 23 years of age, had his coming out party as the best player in the entire world, putting on legendary performances to dig his team from the dirt and eventually lead his team to a series win over one of the greatest teams in basketball history. Incredible upset.

And then in the finals he dropped 31 on 55% shooting despite terrible and clearly biased officiating, and not to mention the stacked hungry Heat coming off a monstrous choke the year before because of LeBron.... they capitalized off the bad reffing and stole the championship from OKC, like the criminals they are

[kennethgriffin]

2012 Spurs were the best version of the Spurs.

started off RED HOT winning 10 straight in the playoffs. (Can they go 16-0?????)

UNTIL Durant, at 23 years of age, had his coming out party as the best player in the entire world, putting on legendary performances to dig his team from the dirt and eventually lead his team to a series win over one of the greatest teams in basketball history. Incredible upset.

And then in the finals he dropped 31 on 55% shooting despite terrible and clearly biased officiating, and not to mention the stacked hungry Heat coming off a monstrous choke the year before because of LeBron.... they capitalized off the bad reffing and stole the championship from OKC, like the criminals they are



with the way the rules are today the new spurs are better for this era

but with the way the rules were in the early 2000's the defensive minded post up game inside/out style was more suited to the era

todays spurs wouldnt come close to winning a title vs a team like the kobe/shaq lakers

[rmt]

Don't know why people are comparing a very mediocre 03 Spurs team with the 14-15 Spurs. This current team is much more talented (especially offensively) than 03. Duncan is nowhere near his peak now but his drop off is not that bad. He can still have big games as evidenced last night - he just can't do it EVERY night.

I've never seen the 03 Spurs play the kind of dominant basketball that this team did in Finals games 3-5. The 03 team would build big leads and collapse in the 4th quarters - inexperienced, mentally inconsistent (because options 2-4 were so inexperienced - a total of 2 playoff years). This current team is so versatile and offensively potent from many players while Duncan had to carry the 03 team so much.

Although it would be interesting to see the Heat trying to guard a peak Duncan.

@Jacks - you refer to Pop as a GOAT coach. In 03 (with only 1 ring), Pop was far from considered a GOAT coach. It's Phil who had 9 rings in 03.

[ArbitraryWater]

2012 Spurs were the best version of the Spurs.

started off RED HOT winning 10 straight in the playoffs. (Can they go 16-0?????)

UNTIL Durant, at 23 years of age, had his coming out party as the best player in the entire world, putting on legendary performances to dig his team from the dirt and eventually lead his team to a series win over one of the greatest teams in basketball history. Incredible upset.

And then in the finals he dropped 31 on 55% shooting despite terrible and clearly biased officiating, and not to mention the stacked hungry Heat coming off a monstrous choke the year before because of LeBron.... they capitalized off the bad reffing and stole the championship from OKC, like the criminals they are

2013 Spurs lost 2 games until the Finals, 2012 Spurs would have been about 3 if they overcome refs in G6, meanhile 2014 lost 6 to the Finals.

The clear difference here is that the 2014-2015 West is GOAT level, and levels above the 2012 and 2013 WC's.

OKC stayed the same, Clippers and Grizzlies got better, Warriors ARRIVED (and got better), Rockets got ALOT better and got Howard, Blazers ARRIVED, Mavericks 2014 was the best team since 2011...

2012-2013 is stll better than the 08-10 West, 3-year period of Spurs/Mavs not dominating, biggest threats the Paul Hornets and Melo Nuggets, other top teams were the inferior Blazers, Carlos Boozer/Deron Williams Jazz, Lakers pretty much had those years.

2011 it slightly started to change with the emergence of the Thunder and Grizzlies, and Mavericks at their best since 2007.
Then came the Clippers... then the Warriors.... then the Rockets...and Blazers... and they all got continuously better too.

[TheMan]

Is this the new rent free when people cant think of a legit response? :oldlol:
Panties bunched

[Budadiiii]

2013 Spurs lost 2 games until the Finals, 2012 Spurs would have been about 3 if they overcome refs in G6, meanhile 2014 lost 6 to the Finals.

The clear difference here is that the 2014-2015 West is GOAT level, and levels above the 2012 and 2013 WC's.

OKC stayed the same, Clippers and Grizzlies got better, Warriors ARRIVED (and got better), Rockets got ALOT better and got Howard, Blazers ARRIVED, Mavericks 2014 was the best team since 2011...

2012-2013 is stll better than the 08-10 West, 3-year period of Spurs/Mavs not dominating, biggest threats the Paul Hornets and Melo Nuggets, other top teams were the inferior Blazers, Carlos Boozer/Deron Williams Jazz, Lakers pretty much had those years.

2011 it slightly started to change with the emergence of the Thunder and Grizzlies, and Mavericks at their best since 2007.
Then came the Clippers... then the Warriors.... then the Rockets...and Blazers... and they all got continuously better too.
Mavs were defending champs in 2012 and still a huge threat.

Lakers were still monsters in 2012, huge threat.

And Spurs at their best in 2012, major threat.

OKC went through all of them but got cheated in the finals. I still consider OKC the champions of that year.

[Kblaze8855]

I'm not even sure what you're arguing. Nobody is denying that Duncan was incredible and that his offensive supporting cast was lacking offensively.

I mean, the Spurs offense in the 2003 playoffs was literally at league-average (103.7 ORTG). They were utterly mediocre.

So how the hell did they win?

Well their defense was absolutely freaking amazing. In fact, it was freaking GOAT level. They had a 97.7 DRTG in 24 postseason games. That's insane.

Was Duncan the biggest reason for that? yeah.

But they also had the best perimeter defender in basketball, and Robinson was still one of the best defenders in the league. Then they had a bunch of other good defenders (Manu, Jackson, Rose,) and the best defensive coach in the league. Every single team in the league right now would love to have any of those guys on their team, and every franchise would kill for a coach like Pop.

They won with defense and he had a great supporting cast defensively.

Period.

Drob and Bowen were the only defenders of note and one was 62 years old playing 20 minutes a night. You are just naming people on the roster. Drob when the beat the lakers for 3 straight games played 17, 15, and 14 minutes. He had an impact...in limited minutes. But he was at times being used as just...6 fouls to throw at Shaq.

What exactly did Malik Rose do to prove hes a good defender? You watch him on the Knicks making a mockery of the game? Parker was getting benched partly for defensive reasons for Speedy Claxton. Danny ****ing Ferry was out there. Kerr was nothing to waste keystrokes on in his prime on defense. And he was 51 years old then. About to be retired by Jamal Crawford Steve Smith was hanging on. Kevin Willis was literally 40 something years old. Jackson was....there. Not noteworthy on defense. Not awful. Like much of his career he had it in him...but he wasnt just some bigtime defender.

Bruce Bowen and Duncan held that team down...with Drob stopping by in 3 minute bursts.

Duncan was the main reason that defense was great and the entire reason they were able to score enough to get by.

That same defensive supporting cast on the Nuggets and we wouldnt even remember they existed.

That wasnt some especially talented defense.

It was 2 great defenders, the shadow of one, and some well coached guys who spent entire careers not being considered special defenders.

Acting like these role players were great defenders because as a unit it worked well is like talking up Rip Hamilton on the Pistons. Just being on a great defense that would be great with or without you doesnt mean you make it happen.


Duncan and Bowen were the only pieces on defense that couldnt just be...any random solid rotation player.

They could(did) throw Danny Ferry and Kerr on the floor with Duncan and Bowen and get stops. They slowed the game down....played hard. Had chemistry.

They were not just good defensive players.

Good defenses have been made from average individual defenders with a couple standouts forever.

There were 7-8 people on that team who just wouldnt get on the floor for a lot of good teams.

Nothing they did on offense or defense would justify PT on many teams...including the recent spurs teams.

Malik Rose might literally have not checked into a game if he were on the current Bulls. a 4 seed....in the east...with injury problems. Manu as of 03...Bulls 8th man? Hes not off the bench before Niko...probably not Brooks either. Parker would be splitting minutes with Rose, Brooks, and Kirk in his 03 form. Drob comes off the bench behind Noah...but not before Taj gets in. So hes maybe the 9th man? Jackson...hes ahead of Snell. So maybe an 8th-10th man?

Kerr, Steve Smith, and Willis get cut.

Bowen takes Dunleavys job...on this team. On some he wouldnt.

Duncan aside...these dudes are riding the bench on a number of teams right now. And nothing they did on defense would change it.

Lots of them would grow into good/great players...or used to be good/great. as of 03?

It was Duncan and some guys. Having chemistry and being talented individuals just arent the same thing.

[G0ATbe]

Because Kobe's the superior player.

LeBald has made a living off of playing on super stacked teams, cakewalking to the finals, and then getting curbstomped when he finally has to vs. a real team.

Godbe actually has to go through juggernaut teams in every series to win his chips.

[ArbitraryWater]

Mavs were defending champs in 2012 and still a huge threat.

Lakers were still monsters in 2012, huge threat.

And Spurs at their best in 2012, major threat.

OKC went through all of them but got cheated in the finals. I still consider OKC the champions of that year.

You make solid arguments.. you don't think we should hand them the last 2 years aswell?

2013 Westbrook Injury? 2014 Ibaka out for first 2 games and unlucky in G6.

[mehyaM24]

Drob and Bowen were the only defenders of note and one was 62 years old playing 20 minutes a night. You are just naming people on the roster. Drob when the beat the lakers for 3 straight games played 17, 15, and 14 minutes.

but for the entire season, robinson was one of the highest impact players defensively - arguably THE most.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2003-rapm

^^^^ rapm takes into account individual impact, separating teammates and opposition by singling out what YOU bring to the table. its regression based.

the facts are, with robinson, the spurs were MUCH better defensively. without him? good, but nowhere near GOAT level as the efficiency rating depicts.


Bruce Bowen and Duncan and Robinson held that team down
FTFY


It was 2 great defenders, the shadow of one, and some well coached guys who spent entire careers not being considered special defenders.
wrong again. the facts are, robinson's defense was as impactful as anybodies.

i can post bs narratives all day too - but at the end of the day, what do they prove? we go by facts, not sentiments.

[DonDadda59]

Poor Don. Just another MJ stan always worried about LeBron.

Jordan as a Bull- 930 games

LeBron's career- 910 games

Scurred as hell. But not as scared as LeBron thinking about seeing Boris again.

2/6.


MJ watching the Finals at age 22. LeBron playing in them at 22

'Playing' is a strong word to describe what Bron did in those finals...

[jlip]

So I was dreaming when I thought I saw Lebron's Heat defeat Duncan's Spurs a mere two years ago with Lebron as the Finals MVP? That didn't actually happen?

[G0ATbe]

So I was dreaming when I thought I saw Lebron's Heat defeat Duncan's Spurs a mere two years ago with Lebron as the Finals MVP? That didn't actually happen?
1 Ray away though.

And he still has a losing record against Spurs in the finals regardless.

[Kblaze8855]

Glancing at that list if you consider its results to be a factual ranking of defensive impact I just dont think this is going to be a profitable discussion.

If Bruce Bowen and Jerry Stackhouse have the same..."factual"...defensive impact...**** facts. Talk to me about basketball or nothing at all.

You can call finding it absurd it a sentiment. I call it a rational observation.

Seems to be little middle ground the way you present it.

[jlip]

1 Ray away though.

And he still has a losing record against Spurs in the finals regardless.

Yeah...OK... the rest of the 4th quarter, OT of game 6 and game 7 didn't happen.

[mehyaM24]

Glancing at that list if you consider its results to be a factual ranking of defensive impact I just dont think this is going to be a profitable discussion.

If Bruce Bowen and Jerry Stackhouse have the same..."factual"...defensive impact...**** facts. Talk to me about basketball or nothing at all.

You can call finding it absurd it a sentiment. I call it a rational observation.

Seems to be little middle ground the way you present it.
the metric itself is used by various gm's, coaches and analysts around the league. i actually put a lot of stock in it.

your stackhouse & bowen comparison isn't a viable one, btw - stackhouse played 8+ minutes a game, while their roles could NOT be more different.

for this stat to "work", when attempting a h2h comparison, you want to compare players with similar roles AND minutes.

i haven't compared robinson to anyone - but i'm telling you, based on the evidence, which is regression based aka NOTHING to do with box score numbers - he was one of the most impactful defenders in the league - and thus, your middle ground.

[nba_55]

Mavs were defending champs in 2012 and still a huge threat.

Lakers were still monsters in 2012, huge threat.

And Spurs at their best in 2012, major threat.

OKC went through all of them but got cheated in the finals. I still consider OKC the champions of that year.

You and Fudge make the gay community look bad.

[Kblaze8855]

So it's only accurate when you compare similar players with similar roles and yet you post the list suggesting someone is arguably the best in the league.....ignoring that the league is hundreds of people playing different minutes and roles.

When it only works for similar players......how the hell do you say who the best or most impactful in the league is? The league hundreds of people nothing alike. Merely saying that someone has the most or least impact in the league is comparing them to people you say you can't compare them to.

Things like this are why such things are so ridiculous to me. Always some list with a hundred and fifty ridiculous results with someone pretending the metric is accurate saying you can only count the same kind of players versus another playing the same minutes. But of course they conveniently ignore this when using that metric to determine who the best or worst is.....because best and worst mean you are comparing the person in question to hundreds of people nothing like them.

If I can't compare David Robinson to Mike Bibby using this number how do I know David was playing better D? There are two ways. We are applying opinions..... which you apparently don't care for... or you are using David's massive advantage in this metric and disregarding that they aren't the least bit similar.

Is it fine to compare players who are complete opposites when the results are what you want them to be? In my experience that's the case. People only care about the results back up the opinions they formed already.

David was as I said an impactful defender who could not play very much.

But that number tells me nothing that I need to know. Just more shit people will bend to fit what they went in looking to prove in the first place while ignoring a hundred examples of the same process giving ridiculous results.

[dubeta]

Kobe never won FMVP enroute to beating Duncan

Duncan never won FMVP when beating LeBron


And LeBron won a FMVP beating Duncan


LeBron - 1


Kobe - 0


Duncan - 0



It seems LeBron wins this round


Then again, it probably is a good representation of Kobe and Duncan's career, superior coaching and superior teammates but they were never the best on their teams

[zizozain]

great mentality and skills

lebron does not have them.


that simple

[Megabox!]

Scurred as hell. But not as scared as LeBron thinking about seeing Boris again
Lebron pretty much scored whenever Diaw guarded him in last year's finals series. Get MJ's c*m off of your face for once

[3ball]

Lebron pretty much scored whenever Diaw guarded him in last year's finals series. Get MJ's c*m off of your face for once
well, boris wasn't guarding him often enough then, because lebron only averaged 28 PPG and left the remaining gap for his teammates to make up.

that's not leadership that can achieve a 3-peat - 3-peating is super-hard, lebron's attempt to 3-peat by playing it safe was a colossal error - he'll never get another chance to 3-peat - he blew his once chance playing it safe and getting cramps...

i don't know what gave him the idea that 3-peating would be easy.

[knicksman]

because kobe has the most important skill(tough shot creation) and cant be provided easily while bran has more skills but are less important and can be provided easily by role players. As they say quality over quantity. Or youre not the brightest kid despite the grades/stats if youre not the best at the most difficult subject(math). Thus result speaks for themselves 2/5<<5/7

[mehyaM24]

David was as I said an impactful defender who could not play very much.

26mpg during the RS & ~24mpg in the playoffs is sufficient enough for a guy teetering on retirement. certainly enough to positively effect ball games, which is exactly what robinson did - an elite defender by all measures.

you don't like the metric? that's fine. but your reasoning couldn't make less sense. its literally no different than some idiot wanting to compare lebron's fg% to tyson chandler's, then claiming fg% is awful because he/she doesn't like the results. :oldlol:

[tpols]

Glancing at that list if you consider its results to be a factual ranking of defensive impact I just dont think this is going to be a profitable discussion.

If Bruce Bowen and Jerry Stackhouse have the same..."factual"...defensive impact...**** facts. Talk to me about basketball or nothing at all.

You can call finding it absurd it a sentiment. I call it a rational observation.

Seems to be little middle ground the way you present it.

David robinson has dominated defensive impact stats every year w as recorded.. which was at the end of his career.. can't even imagine his prime impact.

But 03 spurs were a defensive cast made for a defensive star. Like Steve Nash on a team with amare jj Marion is explosive offensive help.. duncan on a team with bowen manu jackson drob is explosive defensive help. If you put Ben Wallace on the D'antoni suns that help wouldn't do him any good. If you put him on this year's Pacers that'd be amazing help for him despite the suns being more talented.


Edit: also with the bowen Stackhouse thing.. these are stats that mostly show impact of help defense. Which is why big men and guys like drob dominate them. Bowen is man defense.. which doesn't always impact games all that much throughout a long season because some teams rely on a star more than others. Bowens defense shows up in series and in playoffs more than amything.. where he can work on a guy consistently.

[Kblaze8855]

26mpg during the RS & ~24mpg in the playoffs is sufficient enough for a guy teetering on retirement. certainly enough to positively effect ball games, which is exactly what robinson did - an elite defender by all measures.

you don't like the metric? that's fine. but your reasoning couldn't make less sense. its literally no different than some idiot wanting to compare lebron's fg% to tyson chandler's, then claiming fg% is awful because he/she doesn't like the results. :oldlol:

I don't mind many things as long as people are consistent in the use. Don't tell me someone is the most impactful in the league of 300 + very different people and then tell me you can only compare similar players when the same metric presents result in opposition of common sense.

Either you can rank players vs everyone or you cant. If you can't the idea that any one is the most impactful in the league based on this metric is completely ridiculous. If it can only be applied to similar players you can even use it to do it to the most impactful player on a team. Obviously a team isnt made up of 12 similar roles with similar playtime. But people will do it....then later act like it can't be done when the same logic gives 200 laughable results.

You compare like with like and therefore you eliminate large-scale judgments or you do as you have done and make claims that open up comparison of anyone vs anyone else.

How people fail to see the conflict there is beyond me.

Nothing I said here or anywhere else in the last 15 years suggested that I don't think David was an impactful player on defense even at the end.

This number just doesn't have shit to do with it.

[knicksman]

you could really tell who among the posters knows about this game beyond stats and those who dont by just who they root for.

[mehyaM24]

This number just doesn't have shit to do with it.
you haven't made a compelling argument in the least. saying you don't like the metric because it doesn't rank players? that's....not it's intention. rapm/rpm is an impact metric. nothing more. nothing less.

again, no different than comparing any major stat, not bringing any context into the equation, and being upset with the results. dumb. :oldlol:

[rmt]

Then again, it probably is a good representation of Kobe and Duncan's career, superior coaching and superior teammates but they were never the best on their teams

Why do you post rubbish like this? Duncan wasn't the best on his team in 03?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Why do you post rubbish like this? Duncan wasn't the best on his team in 03?

He's just mad that Duncan > LeBron. :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

Wade: 15/4/3/2 on 44%


So both of Lebron's 2nd & 3rd scoring options were scoring more than Kobe's on better efficiency.

Kobe was also missing Bynum for the series and was having Vlad Ramonovic as his starting PF, also was missing Ariza and had some dude named Sasha as his 6th man.

Go back and watch that series, then go watch the 2014 finals and you'll see how one guy can score 2 points more per game on less effeciency while having 20x the impact as the other guy...
Pau 37mpg and Odom 33mpg combined for 26pts and 20trb per game.

Wade 35mpg and Bosh 36mpg combined for 29pts and 9trb.

Which would you rather have for your second and 3rd option?