Jordan, Pippen, Shaq & Kobe had Phil, Duncan had Pop, while LeBron has had...

[Ancient Legend]

Mike Brown
Erik Spoesltra
Israeli coach with no prior NBA experience.

All of them sucked after Lebron left their teams, the word is still out on David Blatt.

So basically Lebron has been playing for mediocre coaches and that has to be part of the reason he's 2/5 and not 3/5 o 4/5 right?
Same thing is happening to the Thunder, they are going nowhere with Brooks as coach.

Shaq & Penny couldn't win shit with Brian Hill.
Kobe & Shaq didn't do shit until after Phil Jackson arrived.
Shaq won with Wade in Miami with RILEY as coach.


I can imagine Lebron's teams would have fared much better with Popovich or Phil coaching him his whoel career like Duncan has with Pop.

[Prometheus]

It doesn't matter that you're right. The same cast of characters are going to bombard this thread with biased garbage.

[DaRkJaWs]

Think how Wilt felt, with 9-10 different coaches in his 14 years in the league. And yet something that you give lebron a pass on you won't for wilt, calling him a loser. God u bran stans are so ****ing pathetic.

[DaRkJaWs]

It doesn't matter that you're right. The same cast of characters are going to bombard this thread with biased garbage.
Call my post biased, mofo, I ****ing dare you.

[Lebron23]

I think they have a very good chance of winning an NBA title this year. Lebron will prove that he can win NBA titles with 2 different NBA Coaches.

[Prometheus]

Call my post biased, mofo, I ****ing dare you.

Does OP talk about Wilt? If he does, then your point is valid. I don't know. I haven't really noticed OP before.

Both LeBron and Wilt had more challenging circumstances for most of their careers than most other ATG's. When they were in great situations, they won. When they weren't, they didn't.

:confusedshrug:

But anyway, your post is biased.

[Ancient Legend]

I think they have a very good chance of winning an NBA title this year. Lebron will prove that he can win NBA titles with 2 different NBA Coaches.

In Lebron's case, he helped Spoelstra win a title and not the other way around.

[Ancient Legend]

Does OP talk about Wilt? If he does, then your point is valid. I don't know. I haven't really noticed OP before.

Both LeBron and Wilt had more challenging circumstances for most of their careers than most other ATG's. When they were in great situations, they won. When they weren't, they didn't.

:confusedshrug:

But anyway, your post is biased.

I don't know the specifics of Wilt's career, I've never talked about him. But LeBron has had mediocre coaches, unlike the other superstars I mentioned.

[Lebron23]

In Lebron's case, he helped Spoelstra win a title and not the other way around.


Filipinos loves overrating Spoelstra. He's a good coach, but he won back to back titles because he had Lebron, Bosh, and Wade on his team.

[Showtime2001]

So then I guess that means Dirk Nowitzki & Paul Pierce > Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe and Duncan.

:facepalm

[AkronAngel]

It definitely speaks to LeBron's talents.

[SCdac]

At the end of the day, it's a player's league. Lebron could have made Spoelstra one of the "best coaches of all time" had he stayed in Miami for say 5+ more seasons, it's all in how you look at it. At the end of the day, the coach cannot get out there and actually shoot for said player, can't force them to be aggressive when they're disappearing. Even the best players have horrible moments... and lets say Duncan leaves the Spurs after his first championship in 1999 (as he was being courted to form a Big 3 with Tmac and Grant Hill in Orlando)? How would we be looking back at Pop's career I wonder... I agree that Mike Brown was nothing special at all - but he did come from the Spurs coaching system. Just like Presti, Ferry, Budenholzer, Avery, etc. Surely Lebron would have benefited from Pop or Phil themselves, but he'd be great regardless and it's more about having a great roster (star talent on both ends) than a great coach IMO

[7secondsorless]

Well, he's pretty much the de facto GM in CLE (both now and in his previous stint) so he should get crackin' on hiring better coaches.

[kkb_12]

It is all part of the "decision" - which coach to play for, who to have for teammates...

[DonDadda59]

At the end of the day, it's a player's league.

This.

The Spurs were 17-47 under Pop during his first year when Robinson was hurt and just before they drafted Timmy. D-Rob comes back, they draft Duncan... 2 years later they won the championship.

Phil Jackson was the coach of the Albany Patroons in the CBA and some random team in Puerto Rico. His first head coaching job was with Jordan and a Bulls team featuring Pippen, Grant, etc who were rounding into all star form after years of wars with the Bad Boys. He immediately went to coach Shaq and Kobe right after that. His record wasn't all that great after Shaq left and before Pau got there. And thus far his record as Knicks HNIC is less than stellar.

Coaches are only as great as the players they have. David Blatt is a far more accomplished coach pre NBA than Phil Jackson was pre NBA.

[LeBird]

If not for Phil Jackson; Jordan would still be ringless. So coaches do matter.

[No_Look604]

Your boy Lebron is like the lion, the tinman, AND the scarecrow in Wizard of Oz when it comes to his case for being GOAT.

[IMObjective]

Does LeBron even want a great, accomplished coach? One that he'd have to obey? He can't really run the show the way he wants with a coach like Pop.

[T_L_P]

They were all mainly facing real competition every year though...not the Gilbert Arenas-less Wizards. :oldlol:

Oh, and let's not act like LeBron has some good track history with coaches (three separate incidents where he "inadvertently" came into contact with them, his POS "entourage" trying to get Spo fired). In 98 Pop was half as revered as Blatt is. I bet LeBron would have despised playing under someone as hard-nosed as Pop, on a team that wouldn't bend over to the Queen's diva demands.

[dubeta]

They were all mainly facing real competition every year though...not the Gilbert Arenas-less Wizards. :oldlol:

Oh, and let's not act like LeBron has some good track history with coaches (three separate incidents where he "inadvertently" came into contact with them, his POS "entourage" trying to get Spo fired). In 98 Pop was half as revered as Blatt is. I bet LeBron would have despised playing under someone as hard-nosed as Pop, on a team that wouldn't bend over to the Queen's diva demands.


What demands? A serviceable coach and half-decent teammates?? Is that too much to ask? :oldlol:

Not everyone can be blessed to win rings being the 3rd best player with the GOAT coach

[ImKobe]

Coaches don't play the games for you, and Lebron had Pat Riley in Miami...

[T_L_P]

What demands? A serviceable coach and half-decent teammates?? Is that too much to ask? :oldlol:

Not everyone can be blessed to win rings being the 3rd best player with the GOAT coach

Demands like having free rein to do whatever he wants, having his pathetic crew bleed the organisation dry, and generally not being held accountable as a leader (Spo made the early comments about LeBron's lack of seriousness, which probably sparked his desire to have him fired; he had problems with Riley's disciplined nature).

Imagine what LeBron's Yes Men would have done to Pop, a coach who demands you play defense (not something LeBron did well for a good five years) and stay out of the limelight. I'm thinking he's not around after 6 months, which is what almost happened to Spo.

[ImKobe]

Demands like having free rein to do whatever he wants, having his pathetic crew bleed the organisation dry, and generally not being held accountable as a leader (Spo made the early comments about LeBron's lack of seriousness, which probably sparked his desire to have him fired; he had problems with Riley's disciplined nature).

Imagine what LeBron's Yes Men would have done to Pop, a coach who demands you play defense (not something LeBron did well for a good five years) and stay out of the limelight. I'm thinking he's not around after 6 months, which is what almost happened to Spo.

Agreed. Let's say Lebron is in Duncan's shoes in 97, do you honestly think he would ever even give the opportunity for a coach to call the plays and manage the system? When has he ever done that? It's always been about LeBron ball. Only person that ever really got things across to him was Wade, and it took a 2nd Finals failure for Lebron to change his game.

[dubeta]

Agreed. Let's say Lebron is in Duncan's shoes in 97, do you honestly think he would ever even give the opportunity for a coach to call the plays and manage the system? When has he ever done that? It's always been about LeBron ball. Only person that ever really got things across to him was Wade, and it took a 2nd Finals failure for Lebron to change his game.


More like thats the time it took for LeBron to finally get serviceable teammates, 9 years in the league compared to right off the bat for Kobe and Duncan.

And LeBron would listen to Pop and get mentored by him, LeBron gets along with coaches and does not feud with them like Kobe always has.

[ImKobe]

More like thats the time it took for LeBron to finally get serviceable teammates, 9 years in the league compared to right off the bat for Kobe and Duncan.

And LeBron would listen to Pop and get mentored by him, LeBron gets along with coaches and does not feud with them like Kobe always has.

serviceable? he had two 15+ ppg bigs(who both had a 20+ PER and much higher WS\48 than Lebron) in Boozer and Big Z his rookie year and missed the Playoffs :facepalm

[dubeta]

serviceable? he had two 15+ ppg bigs(who both had a 20+ PER and much higher WS\48 than Lebron) in Boozer and Big Z his rookie year and missed the Playoffs :facepalm

Kobe had the most dominant big man in the league, a 2X MVP, plus Artest and Gasol and still missed the playoffs

[imdaman99]

Demands like having free rein to do whatever he wants, having his pathetic crew bleed the organisation dry, and generally not being held accountable as a leader (Spo made the early comments about LeBron's lack of seriousness, which probably sparked his desire to have him fired; he had problems with Riley's disciplined nature).

Imagine what LeBron's Yes Men would have done to Pop, a coach who demands you play defense (not something LeBron did well for a good five years) and stay out of the limelight. I'm thinking he's not around after 6 months, which is what almost happened to Spo.
Great post, agree with everything on here :applause:

Riley telling his entourage to STFU basically chased Lebron away. Lebron wanted more control to do whatever he wanted. Pop doesn't let anyone really live on social media so imagine Lebron James trying to whore himself out trying to stay relevant and Pop trying to deal with that :oldlol:

[Rose'sACL]

Demands like having free rein to do whatever he wants, having his pathetic crew bleed the organisation dry, and generally not being held accountable as a leader (Spo made the early comments about LeBron's lack of seriousness, which probably sparked his desire to have him fired; he had problems with Riley's disciplined nature).

Imagine what LeBron's Yes Men would have done to Pop, a coach who demands you play defense (not something LeBron did well for a good five years) and stay out of the limelight. I'm thinking he's not around after 6 months, which is what almost happened to Spo.
wtf? wade too had problems with spo.
what did pop do when parker slept with team mate's wife? lebron would be the second most coach-able guy after duncan if he played for the spurs from start. he would be a different person/player if cavs got a good mature coach which commanded respect instead of brown who still doesn't command respect from a single player in the league.

[ImKobe]

Kobe had the most dominant big man in the league, a 2X MVP, plus Artest and Gasol and still missed the playoffs

most dominant big man in the game that year was Tim Duncan, Howard was playing injured all year and had a horrible year

Kobe led the Lakers to the Playoffs.

Gasol, Ron, Nash all sustained serious injuries, Gasol and Nash missed 30+ games each, back-up PG Steve Blake missed half the season, Lakers were starting Chris Duhon and Darius Morris, Devin Ebanks and even Robert Sacre at some points of the season.

Meanwhile, Lebron couldn't win more than 35 games with two 20+ PER bigs :roll:, Kobe only needed one to make 3 straight Finals and win 2 of them.

[dubeta]

most dominant big man in the game that year was Tim Duncan, Howard was playing injured all year and had a horrible year

Kobe led the Lakers to the Playoffs.

Gasol, Ron, Nash all sustained serious injuries, Gasol and Nash missed 30+ games each, back-up PG Steve Blake missed half the season, Lakers were starting Chris Duhon and Darius Morris, Devin Ebanks and even Robert Sacre at some points of the season.

Meanwhile, Lebron couldn't win more than 35 games with two 20+ PER bigs :roll:, Kobe only needed one to make 3 straight Finals and win 2 of them.

First off all stop trying to compare Kobe to the greats like LeBron, will only lead to disappointments, Kobe is in the Bob Cousy tier, thats a good comparision.

Secondly LeBron was 18 and improved the Cavs from 17 wins to 35 wins, more than doubled their win total, not bad when Kobe was riding the bench at the same age.

[sportjames23]

At the end of the day, it's a player's league. Lebron could have made Spoelstra one of the "best coaches of all time" had he stayed in Miami for say 5+ more seasons, it's all in how you look at it. At the end of the day, the coach cannot get out there and actually shoot for said player, can't force them to be aggressive when they're disappearing. Even the best players have horrible moments... and lets say Duncan leaves the Spurs after his first championship in 1999 (as he was being courted to form a Big 3 with Tmac and Grant Hill in Orlando)? How would we be looking back at Pop's career I wonder... I agree that Mike Brown was nothing special at all - but he did come from the Spurs coaching system. Just like Presti, Ferry, Budenholzer, Avery, etc. Surely Lebron would have benefited from Pop or Phil themselves, but he'd be great regardless and it's more about having a great roster (star talent on both ends) than a great coach IMO


Thank you. Fools here act like Phil made MJ, Pip, Kobe and Shaq, and Pop made Duncan. GTFO. Coaches are only as good as the talent they have at their command.

[Rose'sACL]

Thank you. Fools here act like Phil made MJ, Pip, Kobe and Shaq, and Pop made Duncan. GTFO. Coaches are only as good as the talent they have at their command.
Both are important unless you are saying that mike brown is as good as Pop.

[Blue&Orange]

Mike Brown
Erik Spoesltra
Israeli coach with no prior NBA experience.

All of them sucked after Lebron left their teams, the word is still out on David Blatt.
Tell me what Phil Jackson achieved without Jordan or Kobe? Tell me what Pop achieved without Duncan? What exactly have Mike D'Antoni coach of the year have done without MVP Nash?

And by the way, Pop is a bit overrated, dude gifted Lebron with a championship by making two of the dumbest coach decisions i ever witnessed. Off course you gonna have success when your team Front office gives you Kawhi Leonard for George Hill among other flawless moves.

[ImKobe]

First off all stop trying to compare Kobe to the greats like LeBron, will only lead to disappointments, Kobe is in the Bob Cousy tier, thats a good comparision.

Secondly LeBron was 18 and improved the Cavs from 17 wins to 35 wins, more than doubled their win total, not bad when Kobe was riding the bench at the same age.

"improved"

Cavs tanked the prior season to have a chance to draft him.

according to your beloved advanced stats, Lebron had 5.1 winshares on the 2003-04 Cavs, while Boozer had 9.4 and Big Z added 7.8. And Lebron played nearly 600 more minutes than Boozer. So, Carlos was twice as important as Bran to the team.

49%TS :kobe:

[DonDadda59]

If not for Phil Jackson; Jordan would still be ringless.

What a ridiculous statement. :oldlol:

What do you base this on exactly? Why do people act like Phil Jackson was already some accomplished legendary coaching guru when he got to Chicago? Dude was the coach of the Albany Patroons in the CBA and some random Puerto Rican league teams. He was a pariah to NBA front offices and the Bulls were the only team that even gave him a chance.

Before he became head coach, Jordan was already an MVP, multiple scoring champion and all star, etc and the still developing Bulls had taken eventual champion Detroit to 6 in the ECF. Phil's first year, they made it back to the ECF.

Not like he took some rag tag lottery team and turned them into champions, he walked into the perfect situation for a coach (ala coaching legend Steve Kerr :oldlol: ). Then when Chicago's dynasty ended, he did literally the same thing in LA.

Check the $tats, David Blatt and Mike Brown were far more accomplished than Phil Jackson prior to them becoming head coaches.

[ArbitraryWater]

At the end of the day, it's a player's league. Lebron could have made Spoelstra one of the "best coaches of all time" had he stayed in Miami for say 5+ more seasons, it's all in how you look at it. At the end of the day, the coach cannot get out there and actually shoot for said player, can't force them to be aggressive when they're disappearing. Even the best players have horrible moments... and lets say Duncan leaves the Spurs after his first championship in 1999 (as he was being courted to form a Big 3 with Tmac and Grant Hill in Orlando)? How would we be looking back at Pop's career I wonder... I agree that Mike Brown was nothing special at all - but he did come from the Spurs coaching system. Just like Presti, Ferry, Budenholzer, Avery, etc. Surely Lebron would have benefited from Pop or Phil themselves, but he'd be great regardless and it's more about having a great roster (star talent on both ends) than a great coach IMO

:facepalm

Spoelstra wouldn't magically be a better coach with LeBron carrying the Heat.

[sdot_thadon]

I don't think coaches can make players or vise versa, I will say it's retarded to not think having a great coach matters though. The likes of phil, riley, pop etc didn't win shit without their guys but on the flip side none of their guys won shit without them either. It's symbiotic they need each other to succeed. Team sport. Having the right players I think is 1st and foremost but having the right coach is the difference between good and champs.

[Paul George 24]

SPURS WILL REPEAT :applause:

[kennethgriffin]

*Jordan, Pippen, Shaq & Kobe had Phil, Duncan had Pop, while LeBron has had...


A free trip to the finals half his career?


Beating only 5 teams with 50+ wins to make 5 nba finals

While those other guys all had to beat 20+ teams with 50+ wins to make the finals from the west

























:lol

[3ball]

For 3 straight seasons from 1987-1989, MJ put up better stats and had better seasons than Lebron ever has, and that was without Phil.

Lebron's never been scoring champ, DPOY and MVP all in same season - MJ did that without Phil.

[sportjames23]

What a ridiculous statement. :oldlol:

What do you base this on exactly? Why do people act like Phil Jackson was already some accomplished legendary coaching guru when he got to Chicago? Dude was the coach of the Albany Patroons in the CBA and some random Puerto Rican league teams. He was a pariah to NBA front offices and the Bulls were the only team that even gave him a chance.

Before he became head coach, Jordan was already an MVP, multiple scoring champion and all star, etc and the still developing Bulls had taken eventual champion Detroit to 6 in the ECF. Phil's first year, they made it back to the ECF.

Not like he took some rag tag lottery team and turned them into champions, he walked into the perfect situation for a coach (ala coaching legend Steve Kerr :oldlol: ). Then when Chicago's dynasty ended, he did literally the same thing in LA.

Check the $tats, David Blatt and Mike Brown were far more accomplished than Phil Jackson prior to them becoming head coaches.

Thank you.

Most of these fggts talkin all this shit weren't even born when Phil took over the Bulls. Phil had to drop his fee spirit style before the Bulls even hired him to be Doug Collins' ASSISTANT coach, much less head coach.

Like you said, Phil, like Steve Kerr this year, walked into the perfect set up. The Bulls were already on the verge of winning. Same for the Lakers, like you said.

The same goes for Pop. He fired Bob Hill, tanked the season Robinson mostly missed, and got lucky the Spurs were able to draft Duncan. If Boston got Duncan that year, no one would know who the **** Pop was.

[Hotlantadude81]

This.

The Spurs were 17-47 under Pop during his first year when Robinson was hurt and just before they drafted Timmy. D-Rob comes back, they draft Duncan... 2 years later they won the championship.

Phil Jackson was the coach of the Albany Patroons in the CBA and some random team in Puerto Rico. His first head coaching job was with Jordan and a Bulls team featuring Pippen, Grant, etc who were rounding into all star form after years of wars with the Bad Boys. He immediately went to coach Shaq and Kobe right after that. His record wasn't all that great after Shaq left and before Pau got there. And thus far his record as Knicks HNIC is less than stellar.

Coaches are only as great as the players they have. David Blatt is a far more accomplished coach pre NBA than Phil Jackson was pre NBA.

I think the Spurs leading scorer was a 37 year old Nique that first year.

No coach could win with that.

[Rose'sACL]

I think the Spurs leading scorer was a 37 year old Nique that first year.

No coach could win with that.
plus the fact that they were clearly tanking. it is an open secret that robinson could have returned earlier but didn't because the spurs were tanking for a high pick.
you can take only one thing from this thread which is that most people believe in this:

mike brown = phil jackson = Pop

[Leroy Jetson]

I doubt if Lebron would want to stick around after Pop yells in his face a few times for half assing it, we know Pop doesn't play favorites. I think Lebron wants that superstar treatment from the coach.

[TheMan]

More like thats the time it took for LeBron to finally get serviceable teammates, 9 years in the league compared to right off the bat for Kobe and Duncan.

And LeBron would listen to Pop and get mentored by him, LeBron gets along with coaches and does not feud with them like Kobe always has.
Interesting how you can see that in LBJ's case but when it comes to Jordan, you blame him for not being able to get past GOAT teams like Larry's Celtics and Isiah's Pistons with less than stellar teammates too.

Interedasting...:rolleyes:

[Hey Yo]

Mike Brown
Erik Spoesltra
Israeli coach with no prior NBA experience.

All of them sucked after Lebron left their teams, the word is still out on David Blatt.
Why no mention of Paul Silas? He was the HC for LeBron's first 2yrs.

[3ball]

Interesting how you can see that in LBJ's case but when it comes to Jordan, you blame him for not being able to get past GOAT teams like Larry's Celtics and Isiah's Pistons with less than stellar teammates too.

Interedasting...:rolleyes:


dubeta getting ethered.. gig's up on the 1-9 gimmick

[DonDadda59]

I think the Spurs leading scorer was a 37 year old Nique that first year.

No coach could win with that.

Which is the point... :confusedshrug:

If Phil Jackson had a team of that caliber his first year as an NBA coach instead of inheriting a still developing team led by the GOAT that challenged the eventual champions in the ECF... he may have gone back to the Albany Patroons instead of winning 11 rings. Coaches are only as great as the players/personnel they have. Pop = 17-47 record w/o Duncan (& Robinson), 5 championships and 16 straight 50-win seasons with him.

Same with Erik Spoelstra. Same with Mike Brown. Same with Steve Kerr.

It's not rocket science. NBA = player's league.

[34-24 Footwork]

This thread SCREAMS insecurity. Bran stans scream at the top of their lungs about stats and sh!t only to divert attention away from his losses and lack of team success. You can tell it bothers them. Lebron ball doesn't work anymore against smart teams. He's not nearly athletic as he used to be and he's incapable of dropping buckets from distance on a consistence basis. Until he begins to play like a traditional SF, his team success will be absent, while his NBA 2K rating will stay above 90.

Coaching is irrelevant because he only knows how to play one way. Down the stretch, he should get the ball to Kyrie and gtfo of the way.

[sportjames23]

Which is the point... :confusedshrug:

If Phil Jackson had a team of that caliber his first year as an NBA coach instead of inheriting a still developing team led by the GOAT that challenged the eventual champions in the ECF... he may have gone back to the Albany Patroons instead of winning 11 rings. Coaches are only as great as the players/personnel they have. Pop = 17-47 record w/o Duncan (& Robinson), 5 championships and 16 straight 50-win seasons with him.

Same with Erik Spoelstra. Same with Mike Brown. Same with Steve Kerr.

It's not rocket science. NBA = player's league.


Exactly. I don't see how anyone can dispute this. With VERY few exceptions, the coaches with the best talent always win.

[L.A.Showtime]

Kobe's late 2000s teams weren't as stacked as LeBron's championship teams though. He didn't bolt the moment they lost either.

[DonDadda59]

Exactly. I don't see how anyone can dispute this. With VERY few exceptions, the coaches with the best talent always win.

Yeah, it's really not that complicated. Steve Kerr was Phil Jackson's first choice to coach the dumpster fire that is the Knicks, he passed and instead went to a ready made contender in Golden State.

Does anyone in their right mind think Kerr would've coached Ricky Ledo and Tim Hardaway Jr to a 60+ win season? :confusedshrug:

David Blatt's resume is far better pre NBA than Phil Jackson's. Winning a Euro League championship (consensus 2nd best pro basketball league in the world) and a bronze medal at the Olympics>>>>coaching the Albany Patroons to the CBA championship and coaching Las Piratas de Quebradillas and Los Gallitos de Isabela of the Puerto Rican league. Even Mike Brown won an NBA championship while being the engineer of one of the best defenses ever while under the tutelage of Pop himself.

No excuses Bronies.

[Sarcastic]

If not for Phil Jackson; Jordan would still be ringless. So coaches do matter.


If not for Spoelstra, Lebron would still be ringless.