CP3 with ANOTHER mediocre playoff run - will that get people to stop overrating him?

[mehyaM24]

assuming chris paul flames out in the playoffs (yet again), will that finally change the bs narrative, 'purest pg'? IMO, westbrook & curry are head and shoulders above this guy, but due to regular season play, its skewed the perception of a lot of casual fans - many on this forum too.

curry's had a better regular season than him, and westbrook outplayed him h2h in the playoffs last year. people need to wake the **** up.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Mediocre playoff runs - 09, 12
Good playoff runs - last season
Great playoffs - 08, 11, 13

OP - fakkit

[mehyaM24]

Mediocre playoff runs - 09, 12
Good playoff runs - last season
Great playoffs - 08, 11, 13

OP - fakkit
last year was NOT a 'good playoff run'. he got torched by westbrook to close that series - less points, rebounds & steals. in the playoffs, shooting ~46% overall.

idiot

[LoneyROY7]

If LeBron fails to win the title again this year, will you continue riding his d*ck like a pogo stick?

[mehyaM24]

If LeBron fails to win the title again this year, will you continue riding his d*ck like a pogo stick?
depending on how he plays, i will analyze his game accordingly.

only time lebron has deserved critical flak was in 2011 - he choked like you do when blowing blake griffin.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

last year was NOT a 'good playoff run'. he got torched by westbrook to close that series, shooting ~46% overall with less points, rebounds, & steals

idiot
Uh CP torched Westbrook too
23/12 51/46%

and CP averaged more steals and played much better defense. Westbrook was just gambling like usual and he got lit up so bad in game 1 they had Thabo on CP the rest of the series while Russ was on Redick lmfao

dummy

[LoneyROY7]

depending on how he plays, i will analyze his game accordingly.

only time lebron has deserved critical flack was in 2011 - he choked like you when blowing blake griffin.

How can you analyze anything effectively with your head shoved so far up a man's anus?

[mehyaM24]

Uh CP torched Westbrook too
23/12 51/46%

and CP averaged more steals and played much better defense. Westbrook was just gambling like usual and he got lit up so bad in game 1 they had Thabo on CP the rest of the series while Russ was on Redick lmfao

dummy
westbrook outplayed him. it was clear as day.

low iq ape

[greatest-ever]

Not on realgm. They will still give him a pass. Idk about here though.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

depending on how he plays, i will analyze his game accordingly.

only time lebron has deserved critical flak was in 2011 - he choked like you do when blowing blake griffin.
garbage defense in 09 Magic
2010 Boston
2007 SA where his supporting casts stacked defense made sure all games werent blowouts while Bran avged 6 turnovers and 30% shooting lol
some of the worst defense ever in 2014 finals

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

westbrook outplayed him. it was clear as day.

low iq ape
nope.

adams played deandre to a standstill who also got bullied by perkins, KD outplayed Blake and Collison was the best big in game 6
CP and Russ played on the same level

[Kblaze8855]

Think of a list of points who could put up 20/10 with 3 steals a game and shoot 46% overall and 46% from 3 beat a 51 win team and lose to a 59 win team that has both the MVP and a guard some argue is better than the point in question....

Think of people who could do that....and not even have it considered even "good" by the standards they are judged by.

When you see that the list is probably Magic Johnson, Oscar robertson, and maybe....maaaaybe Tiny and Isiah in their primes? You should then understand why Paul is so highly regarded.

You say he wasnt even good...

There are hall of fame points who never had a playoff run better.

A pretty solid sign of greatness is having performances mocked when hall of famers got voted in for doing less.

Magic and Oscar are the only two points ever who played at a level that a 2014 Paul playoff performance would be a letdown.

For anyone else...is a solid run...or better than they were capable of.

[greatest-ever]

Mediocre playoff runs - 09, 12
Good playoff runs - last season
Great playoffs - 08, 11, 13

OP - fakkit
I dont think you can consider 2011 and 2013 "runs" they were only 6 games a piece. 2011 was a beast series i'll give him that, but 2013 left some to be desired imo. He could've done better than 23 6 with Griffin getting hurt. 2014 was good but inexcusable to not beat Okc, he blew game 5 with his boneheaded turnovers and foul on westbrook in the 4th quarter. They had a 7 point with 49 seconds left. Inexcusable and inexplicable. He was lucky to not lose game 7 to the warriors too, and caught a break with Bogut getting hurt before the series.

The excuses are up for him he needs to put up or shut up in the playoffs.

[L.A.Showtime]

It will continue as is. CP3 fans will make excuses, everybody else will vary from rating him appropriately to underrating him.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

I dont think you can consider 2011 and 2013 "runs" they were only 6 games a piece. 2011 was a beast series i'll give him that, but 2013 left some to be desired imo. He could've done better than 23 6 with Griffin getting hurt. 2014 was good but inexcusable to not beat Okc, he blew game 5 with his boneheaded turnovers and foul on westbrook in the 4th quarter. They had a 7 point with 49 seconds left. Inexcusable and inexplicable. He was lucky to not lose game 7 to the warriors too, and caught a break with Bogut getting hurt before the series.

The excuses are up for him he needs to put up or shut up in the playoffs.
CP was great in 13. he only averaged 1.5 turnovers as well as 23/6/4 on 54%. That was against the best defensive backcourt in the league w/ the best perimeter defender in basketball keying in on him.

Everyone else on the Clips was garbage or inconsistent outside of Barnes

[ninephive]

Think of a list of points who could put up 20/10 with 3 steals a game and shoot 46% overall and 46% from 3 beat a 51 win team and lose to a 59 win team that has both the MVP and a guard some argue is better than the point in question....

Think of people who could do that....and not even have it considered even "good" by the standards they are judged by.

When you see that the list is probably Magic Johnson, Oscar robertson, and maybe....maaaaybe Tiny and Isiah in their primes? You should then understand why Paul is so highly regarded.

You say he wasnt even good...

There are hall of fame points who never had a playoff run better.

A pretty solid sign of greatness is having performances mocked when hall of famers got voted in for doing less.

Magic and Oscar are the only two points ever who played at a level that a 2014 Paul playoff performance would be a letdown.

For anyone else...is a solid run...or better than they were capable of.
Tony Parker averaged 25/10/4/2 on 53% shooting to sweep a 56-win Grizzlies team in the WCF being guarded by one of the best defensive PGs in the league (Conley) and occasionally one of the best perimeter defenders (Tony Allen) in the league. And the closest players on his team averaged 9.0 PPG less (Duncan) and 5.0 APG less (Ginobili). I'd like to see a list of guards who have ever dominated a Conference Finals to such a degree.

We've said this every year about CP3. Another disappointment can't change how we view him because he's never done anything but disappoint. He's had one of the best PF in the game, a championship coach, and now the best rebounding center in the league who also has the highest FG% in addition to really good role players (sharpshooter in Reddick, great defensive wing in Barnes, and a 6th man of the year in Crawford). What more could CP3 possibly have to make a title run?

[Milbuck]

Tony Parker averaged 25/10/4/2 on 53% shooting to sweep a 56-win Grizzlies team in the WCF being guarded by one of the best defensive PGs in the league (Conley) and occasionally one of the best perimeter defenders (Tony Allen) in the league. And the closest players on his team averaged 9.0 PPG less (Duncan) and 5.0 APG less (Ginobili). I'd like to see a list of guards who have ever dominated a Conference Finals to such a degree.

We've said this every year about CP3. Another disappointment can't change how we view him because he's never done anything but disappoint.
Lmfao at bringing up one series. Anyone can bring up individual series to prop up guys.

Swap CP3 for TP and TP struggles to get out of the 1st round every year, and the Spurs probably win an extra chip.

Tony Parker really isn't that good. He's really not. He has never in his life been as good as current CP (let alone ~2008-2009 CP), Westbrook, or Curry. He's an overrated, low impact "star" player who owes most of his greatness to the Spurs franchise, Duncan, and Pop. If he gets drafted to, say, the Timberwolves...he is totally irrelevant right now, and a perennial loser in his prime.

[ninephive]

Lmfao at bringing up one series. Anyone can bring up individual series to prop up guys.

Swap CP3 for TP and TP struggles to get out of the 1st round every year, and the Spurs probably win an extra chip.

Tony Parker really isn't that good. He's really not. He has never in his life been as good as current CP (let alone ~2008-2009 CP), Westbrook, or Curry. He's an overrated, low impact "star" player who owes most of his greatness to the Spurs franchise, Duncan, and Pop. If he gets drafted to, say, the Timberwolves...he is totally irrelevant right now, and a perennial loser in his prime.
You mean in 2008 when he knocked CP3 out of the playoffs again by hitting the clinching jumper in game 7? I just brought up that series to show that Parker's had a better run than what CP3 had, while people were trying to make it sound like only Magic and Oscar could ever average 20/10 on 46% shooting, lol. Parker did waaay more than that with very little help against one of the best defensive teams we've seen in years on one of the biggest stages. Parker also embarrassed Paul when he swept him out of the playoffs in 2012, but I guess CP3 gets a pass on that one.

I love that the only argument you have is theoretical. "Well, put CP3 on the Spurs and they win more championships." Good argument...I guess we'll never know. All I do know is that Parker-led teams win championships and Paul-led teams get close to the WCF (occasionally).

Just to recap your arguments: (1) "Tony Parker really isn't that good. He's really not." (2) Tony Parker has never been as good as current Chris Paul or the 08/09 version. (3) Tony Parker would probably struggle to get out of the first round of the playoffs if he led a different team (rather than one where his next best player averaged 15 PPG). (4) Tony Parker is overrated. (5) Tony Parker is only good because he plays for the Spurs. (6) Tony Parker would probably be a perennial loser if another team drafted him.

Did I miss any other compelling arguments?

[RidonKs]

the real question we should be asking is whether or not paul is stunting blake griffin's growth? bearing in mind that the blame can be placed griffin's feat as much as at paul's.

paul is among the cagiest craftiest pg's ever. when the ball is in his hands, you can be certain that very few possessions will be wasted. that's not something you can say about many floor leaders in the league.

but when you watch a clippers game, notice the occasions paul gives it up to griffin in an indecisive spot against good defense. slip pass to the middle of the key with the big rotating over and the weakside wing sliding down. or off a switch putting a smaller defender on him just under the elbow.

unless there is a clear lane to the basket, griffin won't instinctively attack. usually he'll just flick it back to paul for a reset. sometimes he will isolate. but rarely will he use his athleticism to make something out of nothing but a rotating defense on its heels.

what he should do is attack the seam, force a collapse, and create on his own. but for all of his spectacular coordination and vision passing the ball, he's still nervous about losing control. he would much rather let his surefire point guard handle the decision making. and it costs the clippers half court game in play after play after play. i'm still waiting for him to step up in a bigger way and it's a big reason i'm looking forward to watching the clippers in the playoffs.

there are a bunch of possible answers. growing up next to a generational point guard, perhaps blake has just never had the opportunity to take on more authority at the offensive end. that seems most likely. alternatively, chris paul is so headstrong that it isn't so much blake being deferential as paul demanding deference.




either way, this nonsense about paul having to prove himself comes from the stan chorus that worships a championship ring and insults anybody who comes up short. it has nothing to do with his performance which has been utterly consistent for a decade now.

[Kblaze8855]

Tony Parker being on the Spurs doesnt mean he leads them. Thats a team you cant credit any individual for if ever there was one. 5 or 6 people have been the reason they won big games. Back years ago it was Duncan and...some guys. Since he took that step back...if you have to credit one person with their success its him for setting the example or Pop for establishing what the team was all about.

Parker has won rings on the Spurs playing middling ball and playing great. Nothing has happened to suggest hes...the guy. Hes one of the guys. But the Spurs arent his team the way every team Paul has been on has been his.

[ninephive]

Tony Parker being on the Spurs doesnt mean he leads them. Thats a team you cant credit any individual for if ever there was one. 5 or 6 people have been the reason they won big games. Back years ago it was Duncan and...some guys. Since he took that step back...if you have to credit one person with their success its him for setting the example or Pop for establishing what the team was all about.

Parker has won rings on the Spurs playing middling ball and playing great. Nothing has happened to suggest hes...the guy. Hes one of the guys. But the Spurs arent his team the way every team Paul has been on has been his.
I get that the Spurs are a great team, but last year Parker not only led the team in scoring and assists in the regular season and playoffs (even led them in scoring in the Finals), but he was also the only All-Star and All-NBA player on the team. Pop and Duncan have also both said it was his team. So if that's not enough distinction to recognize him as the best player on the team, I really don't know what would be.

[ninephive]

the real question we should be asking is whether or not paul is stunting blake griffin's growth? bearing in mind that the blame can be placed griffin's feat as much as at paul's.

paul is among the cagiest craftiest pg's ever. when the ball is in his hands, you can be certain that very few possessions will be wasted. that's not something you can say about many floor leaders in the league.

but when you watch a clippers game, notice the occasions paul gives it up to griffin in an indecisive spot against good defense. slip pass to the middle of the key with the big rotating over and the weakside wing sliding down. or off a switch putting a smaller defender on him just under the elbow.

unless there is a clear lane to the basket, griffin won't instinctively attack. usually he'll just flick it back to paul for a reset. sometimes he will isolate. but rarely will he use his athleticism to make something out of nothing but a rotating defense on its heels.

what he should do is attack the seam, force a collapse, and create on his own. but for all of his spectacular coordination and vision passing the ball, he's still nervous about losing control. he would much rather let his surefire point guard handle the decision making. and it costs the clippers half court game in play after play after play. i'm still waiting for him to step up in a bigger way and it's a big reason i'm looking forward to watching the clippers in the playoffs.

there are a bunch of possible answers. growing up next to a generational point guard, perhaps blake has just never had the opportunity to take on more authority at the offensive end. that seems most likely. alternatively, chris paul is so headstrong that it isn't so much blake being deferential as paul demanding deference.




either way, this nonsense about paul having to prove himself comes from the stan chorus that worships a championship ring and insults anybody who comes up short. it has nothing to do with his performance which has been utterly consistent for a decade now.
This is a great observation. Not only does Parker's ability to drive make him a better scorer than Paul, but it also opened up the floor for the Spurs to be one of the best passing teams of all time. Parker not only commanded the team's best defender (like Lebron) for the past 2 finals runs, but he also drew out the bigs, which would lead to a pick and roll assist to Duncan or Splitter (easy layups/dunks) or a wide open 3 from Green with a baseline pass. If that didn't work, most of the time he would get the hockey assist because the penetration left one man open, which started the swing passes.

Paul gets the lobs to Jordan and Griffin (which are very high-percentage obviously) but often he gets gets them the ball high on the block like you said, which puts them in a difficult position.

[NumberSix]

last year was NOT a 'good playoff run'. he got torched by westbrook to close that series - less points, rebounds & steals. in the playoffs, shooting ~46% overall.

idiot
To be fair, LAC got jobbed against OKC.

[Kblaze8855]

Who else would lead them in scoring and assists?

Nobody on the Spurs cares about numbers. Nobody played 30 minutes a game. Duncan was the teams most productive player. For his minutes he was about the same as he was in 2006. The teams best all around player is clearly Leonard or Duncan. Tony is the closest thing they have to a go to scorer...but plenty of time he straight no shows and it doesnt matter. He has zero...they blow out the Blazers to go to the WCF. He has 8 points and 2 assists...they close out the Thunder. Chris Paul scores 12 points or less his team has never won a playoff game(with the exception being a 40 point win where he had 12/10 with 5 steals in short minutes having already secured the W).

The Spurs are fine with or without any individual. And if they had to chose one to lose at this point im not sure Tony wouldnt be 3rd on Pops "Cant cut" list.

Chris Paul has been without question the key player on every team hes been on.

Tony is a large piece of a great machine. But hes never been as critical to his teams success or failure.

You want to argue hes as good as the Pauls, Nashs, Kidds, and so on....id listen. Id hear you out.

But fact is...they all had more of a burden to carry than he did.

Hell Deron Williams on the Jazz did too.

Its not a failing to be on a team that can win in a dozen ways....but it doesnt give you much chance to prove your ability to carry the load.

The Spurs have never needed to be carried. Not since Duncan had to do it 10 years ago.

One night Tony might have 32...the next duncan 24/16...Manu comes in for 19 in 15 minutes. Danny Green wets 7 threes...Diaw decides to go back to Suns mode and score in the post and hit cutters. Leonard starts hitting fadeaways and locking up stars.

You just never know.

But you know with most of the other great points...if the team is gonna prosper they have to make it happen. Off game or on...they make the decisions...they decide how the game is played. And they get judged individually by their teams performance.

Tony doesnt have that on his resume.

Nobody is calling him out for losing in 2013...because he isnt credited when they win or blamed when they lose.

The Clippers lose you see 20 Chris Paul topics. The Spurs lose...you see Spurs topics.

[bballnoob1192]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schoenfield/090428

CP3 still hasn't recover from this beatdown yet. worst loss in NBA PLAYOFFS history while at home trying to tie up the series and this is only 1 year removed from his "supposed" mvp year. let's be real here cp3 has always been a mental midget in the playoffs. he has been since 2008. he was argued against kobe for the mvp that season except his team lost to the spurs in game 7 at home, then kobe went ahead and raped the spurs in 5 games that year.

[T_L_P]

I get that the Spurs are a great team, but last year Parker not only led the team in scoring and assists in the regular season and playoffs (even led them in scoring in the Finals), but he was also the only All-Star and All-NBA player on the team. Pop and Duncan have also both said it was his team. So if that's not enough distinction to recognize him as the best player on the team, I really don't know what would be.

Sorry, it doesn't just work like that (PPG+APG).

Add up their PPG/RPG/APG/SPG/BPG, takeaway their TOs and Parker ends up with a 22.3 last postseason, Duncan has a 28, Manu has a 22.1 and Leonard has a 23.7.

TS%:

Leonard .606
Manu .593
Duncan .568
Parker .531

Not to mention Duncan and Kawhi are two of the best defensive players in the league, whereas Tony is a total non-factor on that end, a negative.

Those are the raw stats (and before you talk about the Rebounds boosting Duncan's and Kawhi's numbers too much, Parker's Usage was way higher than Duncan's or Kawhi's, so his scoring and Assisting should have lead the team, if he were in fact the best player), but what about some advanced ones?

Duncan and Kawhi were #1 and #4 in PER, Tony was #8
Duncan and Kawhi were #1 and #2 in WS, Tony was #8
Duncan and Kawhi were #2 and #3 in WS/48, Tony was #13

Last postseason, Duncan and Kawhi were better. Two-way play that was efficient and didn't rely on pounding the ball into oblivion beats whatever Parker did.

Oh, and you know Parker is 2nd in scoring and 1st in Assists on this year's Spurs team? So according to you, whole season considered, Parker has been a top two Spur, or even the best Spur?

[Kblaze8855]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schoenfield/090428

CP3 still hasn't recover from this beatdown yet. worst loss in NBA PLAYOFFS history while at home trying to tie up the series and this is only 1 year removed from his "supposed" mvp year. let's be real here cp3 has always been a mental midget in the playoffs. he has been since 2008. he was argued against kobe for the mvp that season except his team lost to the spurs in game 7 at home, then kobe went ahead and raped the spurs in 5 games that year.


So does Paul having Steph Curry down 45 in the playoffs somehow still impact who plays basketball better right now?

Or is an hour sample size from the past...irrelevant? I feel like it probably is. But you let me know.

[ninephive]

Sorry, it doesn't just work like that (PPG+APG).

Add up their PPG/RPG/APG/SPG/BPG, takeaway their TOs and Parker ends up with a 22.3 last postseason, Duncan has a 28, Manu has a 22.1 and Leonard has a 23.7.

TS%:

Leonard .606
Manu .593
Duncan .568
Parker .531

Not to mention Duncan and Kawhi are two of the best defensive players in the league, whereas Tony is a total non-factor on that end, a negative.

Those are the raw stats (and before you talk about the Rebounds boosting Duncan's and Kawhi's numbers too much, Parker's Usage was way higher than Duncan's or Kawhi's, so his scoring and Assisting should have lead the team, if he were in fact the best player), but what about some advanced ones?

Duncan and Kawhi were #1 and #4 in PER, Tony was #8
Duncan and Kawhi were #1 and #2 in WS, Tony was #8
Duncan and Kawhi were #2 and #3 in WS/48, Tony was #13

Last postseason, Duncan and Kawhi were better. Two-way play that was efficient and didn't rely on pounding the ball into oblivion beats whatever Parker did.

Oh, and you know Parker is 2nd in scoring and 1st in Assists on this year's Spurs team? So according to you, whole season considered, Parker has been a top two Spur, or even the best Spur?
Kawhi has been the best Spur this season. Duncan is probably next because Parker was injured for most of it, so I would say he's 3rd this season in terms of impact. He still runs the offense and has most of the Spurs highest scoring outings of the season (and that's on his worst scoring season since his rookie year). It's not like you have Spurs that can score or assist more than Parker in games...heck, no one's even done it this season.

[ninephive]

Sorry, it doesn't just work like that (PPG+APG).

Add up their PPG/RPG/APG/SPG/BPG, takeaway their TOs and Parker ends up with a 22.3 last postseason, Duncan has a 28, Manu has a 22.1 and Leonard has a 23.7.

TS%:

Leonard .606
Manu .593
Duncan .568
Parker .531

Not to mention Duncan and Kawhi are two of the best defensive players in the league, whereas Tony is a total non-factor on that end, a negative.

Those are the raw stats (and before you talk about the Rebounds boosting Duncan's and Kawhi's numbers too much, Parker's Usage was way higher than Duncan's or Kawhi's, so his scoring and Assisting should have lead the team, if he were in fact the best player), but what about some advanced ones?

Duncan and Kawhi were #1 and #4 in PER, Tony was #8
Duncan and Kawhi were #1 and #2 in WS, Tony was #8
Duncan and Kawhi were #2 and #3 in WS/48, Tony was #13

Last postseason, Duncan and Kawhi were better. Two-way play that was efficient and didn't rely on pounding the ball into oblivion beats whatever Parker did.

Oh, and you know Parker is 2nd in scoring and 1st in Assists on this year's Spurs team? So according to you, whole season considered, Parker has been a top two Spur, or even the best Spur?
I understand that there are dozens of advanced metrics that you can pull out and tell a story.

[ralph_i_el]

assuming chris paul flames out in the playoffs (yet again), will that finally change the bs narrative, 'purest pg'? IMO, westbrook & curry are head and shoulders above this guy, but due to regular season play, its skewed the perception of a lot of casual fans - many on this forum too.

curry's had a better regular season than him, and westbrook outplayed him h2h in the playoffs last year. people need to wake the **** up.

How abouyt you wait until Westbrook and Curry actually do something before you use their names to disparage CP3?

Casuals like Westbrook and Curry....real basketball fans know CP3 is the better player.

[ralph_i_el]

This is a great observation. Not only does Parker's ability to drive make him a better scorer than Paul,
:roll: :facepalm nope.

[TiagoSimoes]

I understand that there are dozens of advanced metrics that you can pull out and tell a story.

Every metric and eye test tell us parker is at best the 3rd best and more important player on the spurs. He was surpassed by kawhi and duncan still impacts the game way more. He is nowhere close to the top tier of pgs, especially on this season where he has been mediocre

[RepMe]

It will continue as is. CP3 fans will make excuses, everybody else will vary from rating him appropriately to underrating him.

Stop using logic.

[ralph_i_el]

Every metric and eye test tell us parker is as best the 3rd best and more important player or the spurs. He was surpassed by kawhi and ducan still impacts the gamd way more. He is nowhere close to the top tier of pgs, especially on this season where he as been mediocre

anyone with a brain can tell that Parker is a decent point guard in a great system, who is never asked to do that much compared to other star pg's. He's been benched in the playoffs and his team didn't miss a beat. Tony Parker drafted by Milwaukee is probably not even remembered 10 years from now. Best case scenario his career plays out to be a Goran Dragic level player.

[Al Thornton]

last year was NOT a 'good playoff run'. he got torched by westbrook to close that series - less points, rebounds & steals. in the playoffs, shooting ~46% overall.

idiot

he also didn't guard westbrook for the majority of the series, u clearly were not watching

[Eric Cartman]

Well, he raped Steph last year, so there's that.

[mehyaM24]

You know why he didn't guard arguably the best player of that series.. because he's a damn coward.

Not giving him a pass for ducking the best player at his position on the opposing team. Don't be retarded bro.
^^^^ immortal is 100% on point here, tbh

i never said they defended each other BTW. again, westbrook torched and outplayed paul, h2h (statistically), for the bulk of that series.

the points, rebounds, defense & clutch play were all a testament to this.

[Darius]

the real question we should be asking is whether or not paul is stunting blake griffin's growth? bearing in mind that the blame can be placed griffin's feat as much as at paul's.

paul is among the cagiest craftiest pg's ever. when the ball is in his hands, you can be certain that very few possessions will be wasted. that's not something you can say about many floor leaders in the league.

but when you watch a clippers game, notice the occasions paul gives it up to griffin in an indecisive spot against good defense. slip pass to the middle of the key with the big rotating over and the weakside wing sliding down. or off a switch putting a smaller defender on him just under the elbow.

unless there is a clear lane to the basket, griffin won't instinctively attack. usually he'll just flick it back to paul for a reset. sometimes he will isolate. but rarely will he use his athleticism to make something out of nothing but a rotating defense on its heels.

what he should do is attack the seam, force a collapse, and create on his own. but for all of his spectacular coordination and vision passing the ball, he's still nervous about losing control. he would much rather let his surefire point guard handle the decision making. and it costs the clippers half court game in play after play after play. i'm still waiting for him to step up in a bigger way and it's a big reason i'm looking forward to watching the clippers in the playoffs.

there are a bunch of possible answers. growing up next to a generational point guard, perhaps blake has just never had the opportunity to take on more authority at the offensive end. that seems most likely. alternatively, chris paul is so headstrong that it isn't so much blake being deferential as paul demanding deference.



Good real analysis

[Darius]

I dont think you can consider 2011 and 2013 "runs" they were only 6 games a piece. 2011 was a beast series i'll give him that, but 2013 left some to be desired imo. He could've done better than 23 6 with Griffin getting hurt. 2014 was good but inexcusable to not beat Okc, he blew game 5 with his boneheaded turnovers and foul on westbrook in the 4th quarter. They had a 7 point with 49 seconds left. Inexcusable and inexplicable. He was lucky to not lose game 7 to the warriors too, and caught a break with Bogut getting hurt before the series.

The excuses are up for him he needs to put up or shut up in the playoffs.

This Bogut being hurt thing needs to be called out.

Newsflash: Bogut gets hurt. The only reason GSW was able to acquire Bogut is because Bogut gets hurt.

If he didn't, they would have never gotten him that cheap.

You can't get a guy who is always hurt for cheap and then complain when he is hurt... that's part of the deal.

[Darius]

Insofar as CP3... ridiculous he has this many haters.

6ft tall, no athleticism and still dominates. You think the majority of ISH posters would sympathize.

[mehyaM24]

Insofar as CP3... ridiculous he has this many haters.

6ft tall, no athleticism and still dominates. You think the majority of ISH posters would sympathize.
i think he's one of the top 3 players at his position. just not better than westbrook & curry - and if rose becomes rose, not better than him either.

.....if that's "hating", so be it. :confusedshrug:

[greatest-ever]

This Bogut being hurt thing needs to be called out.

Newsflash: Bogut gets hurt. The only reason GSW was able to acquire Bogut is because Bogut gets hurt.

If he didn't, they would have never gotten him that cheap.

You can't get a guy who is always hurt for cheap and then complain when he is hurt... that's part of the deal.
And this is a rebutal to my statement how?

The point was, Gsw gave the clippers all they could handle without having their rim protector. Deandre went nuts because no one could guard him with no bogut. Bogut playing even 20 mins a game would've changed that series. And its not like Paul even played all that well.

[ninephive]

:roll: :facepalm nope.
Scores more per 36 for his career on better percentage.

[L8krH8tr]

the only teams in the west to win in the last decade are the lakers,spurs,mavs. cp3 didnt have any team with as much talent as those championship teams

[greatest-ever]

the only teams in the west to win in the last decade are the lakers,spurs,mavs. cp3 didnt have any team with as much talent as those championship teams
You forgot Okc. And idk, last year's clips were arguably more talented than the 08-10 Lakers or close to it. Anyways i don't think anyone's saying he should've made the finals but the point is he could've done better than only 2 playoff series victories in 3 years with the clippers, and only 3 for his career.

[ralph_i_el]

Scores more per 36 for his career on better percentage.

comparing fg% between a player who doesn't shoot 3's and one who does :roll:

.2 more ppg on 1.3 more shots per-36 for tony :roll:
with only 2/3's the assists

CP3 also is called on when his team needs a tough bucket, because he's had one of the best pull-up J's in the league for years.

If CP3 looked for his shot like a scoring guard he could average 25ppg with ~7.5apg

[Young X]

In what years of his career should his team have gotten further?

'08 and '14 are the only years you could really argue.

'08: Lost to 56 win, defending champ Spurs in 7.
'14: Lost to 59 win Thunder with the MVP and another elite guard without HCA.

That's bad?

[ninephive]

You forgot Okc. And idk, last year's clips were arguably more talented than the 08-10 Lakers or close to it. Anyways i don't think anyone's saying he should've made the finals but the point is he could've done better than only 2 playoff series victories in 3 years with the clippers, and only 3 for his career.
What you have to understand is that everything is hindsight. CP3 has every piece you need to win a championship and then some: Really good front-court, the supposed "best PG in the game" for several years, a really good supporting cast, their core has been together for years, and they have a championship-proven coach. The moment CP3 gets to or wins a finals everyone will talk about how great his team was, and rightfully so...it is really really good talent-wise. But he has had mediocre playoff runs for one reason or another.

If the Spurs would have lost in the first round of the playoffs last year to the Mavs in game 7, EVERYONE would have said they were done and that their run was over. They didn't have any superstars and they just don't have the talent to win a championship. But after they won, the narrative becomes they had a really great team. The fact is you HAVE to be a really good team to win a championship. In the NFL, you might be able to run off 3 playoff games and steal a Superbowl, which is why you have 6 seeds that have done it. That's not happening in the NBA. You simply cannot win an NBA championship without a really good team. But on the flip side, having a really good team certainly doesn't guarantee you are going to win a championship, and that is the case with Chris Paul.

So we can judge players however we want with all the hypotheticals and what-ifs, but at the end of the day if you cannot win championships for whatever reason, you will never be one of the greats, and you shouldn't be because that is the goal and to NEVER have done it means you are on another tier. I know championships aren't everything but you can't just theoretically swap players out and expect to be able to predict production. It's not formulaic, it takes real-world results and that's what we're evaluating them on.

[Darius]

What you have to understand is that everything is hindsight. CP3 has every piece you need to win a championship and then some: Really good front-court, the supposed "best PG in the game" for several years, a really good supporting cast, their core has been together for years, and they have a championship-proven coach. The moment CP3 gets to or wins a finals everyone will talk about how great his team was, and rightfully so...it is really really good talent-wise. But he has had mediocre playoff runs for one reason or another.

If the Spurs would have lost in the first round of the playoffs last year to the Mavs in game 7, EVERYONE would have said they were done and that their run was over. They didn't have any superstars and they just don't have the talent to win a championship. But after they won, the narrative becomes they had a really great team. The fact is you HAVE to be a really good team to win a championship. In the NFL, you might be able to run off 3 playoff games and steal a Superbowl, which is why you have 6 seeds that have done it. That's not happening in the NBA. You simply cannot win an NBA championship without a really good team. But on the flip side, having a really good team certainly doesn't guarantee you are going to win a championship, and that is the case with Chris Paul.

So we can judge players however we want with all the hypotheticals and what-ifs, but at the end of the day if you cannot win championships for whatever reason, you will never be one of the greats, and you shouldn't be because that is the goal and to NEVER have done it means you are on another tier. I know championships aren't everything but you can't just theoretically swap players out and expect to be able to predict production. It's not formulaic, it takes real-world results and that's what we're evaluating them on.

Tony, give it a rest.

Duncan won you 4 chips... you don't need our validation here on ISH.

[TheMarkMadsen]

In what years of his career should his team have gotten further?

'08 and '14 are the only years you could really argue.

'08: Lost to 56 win, defending champ Spurs in 7.
'14: Lost to 59 win Thunder with the MVP and another elite guard without HCA.

That's bad?


losing game 7 at home is pretty bad


and 09 is the most embarrassing playoff loss of all time.. loses by 60 at home and then get blown out again in game 5 while playing like garbage in the last 2 games.. to Carmelos nuggets..

pretty bad if you ask me :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[ninephive]

In what years of his career should his team have gotten further?

'08 and '14 are the only years you could really argue.

'08: Lost to 56 win, defending champ Spurs in 7.
'14: Lost to 59 win Thunder with the MVP and another elite guard without HCA.

That's bad?
I really don't see how this is a valid argument. Are you arguing that CP3 was never even good enough to lead a team that had a chance at winning a title? So yah, he lost to a better team. Is that supposed to help his resume? So not only did he not actually ever make the WCF, but we don't think he was even a good enough player to possibly lead his team to one? If that's the case, then why are we even arguing that he is an elite player? If he hasn't produced and hasn't been injured, then he is either a choker or he isn't that great.

[ninephive]

Tony, give it a rest.

Duncan won you 4 chips... you don't need our validation here on ISH.
Then why in the world would they mistakenly give Tony a FMVP in a Finals where he outplayed Lebron in embarrassing fashion? (sweep)

Why did he accidentally lead the Spurs in scoring and assists throughout the regular season and playoffs and just "happen" to be the only All-Star and only All-NBA player on a team that decimated the league like no one has ever seen before?

Oh right because Duncan carried him with less scoring production on worse shooting last year. I forgot.

[ninephive]

losing game 7 at home is pretty bad


and 09 is the most embarrassing playoff loss of all time.. loses by 60 at home and then get blown out again in game 5 while playing like garbage in the last 2 games.. to Carmelos nuggets..

pretty bad if you ask me :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:
It's literally the most embarrassing performance of all-time. You couldn't even dream up a scenario that bad. Whenever I heard this, I was actually shocked. The Denver Nuggets (notorious playoff jokes) literally decimated CP3 in a fashion you can't even imagine happening at a YMCA or something. How is it possible that this happened? How can you possibly lose 4-1 in the first round of the playoffs like that? Can you imagine Tony Parker having a statline of 4 PTS, 6 TOV, and a +/- of -38 in 36 minutes of play??? I'm honestly still baffled by this.

[Spurs m8]

Im ready for the choke, bring it on!!

[Young X]

losing game 7 at home is pretty bad


and 09 is the most embarrassing playoff loss of all time.. loses by 60 at home and then get blown out again in game 5 while playing like garbage in the last 2 games.. to Carmelos nuggets..

pretty bad if you ask me :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:Do you honestly believe that depleted Hornets team should've beaten the Nuggets that year? Be real.

Losing game 7 at home (against the defending champs who won the same amount of games as the Hornets) is so bad that players better than CP have done it?

[ninephive]

Do you honestly believe that depleted Hornets team should've beaten the Nuggets that year? Be real.

Losing game 7 at home (against the defending champs who won the same amount of games as the Hornets) is so bad that players better than CP have done it?
They certainly had their shot being up 3-2 in that series, but lost the last 2 games. Can you blame him though with TP9 closing out G7?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTFKogzdZk&feature=youtu.be&t=2m2s

[TheMarkMadsen]

Do you honestly believe that depleted Hornets team should've beaten the Nuggets that year? Be real.

Losing game 7 at home (against the defending champs who won the same amount of games as the Hornets) is so bad that players better than CP have done it?

uhm.. they certainly had a chance :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

they certainly shouldn't have been blown out by 80 points in the last 2 games

should we not expect a Cp3 led team to beat a Carmelo led team when each player has an all star beside them..

and even if you didn't (which you should if you think Cp3 is a top player) I wouldn't expect them to get beaten by 60 points one game and 20 points the next while Cp3 shits the bed..

that sure as hell counts as a bad playoff run, which is why I brought it up.

[Young X]

uhm.. they certainly had a chance :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

they certainly shouldn't have been blown out by 80 points in the last 2 games

should we not expect a Cp3 led team to beat a Carmelo led team when each player has an all star beside them..

and even if you didn't (which you should if you think Cp3 is a top player) I wouldn't expect them to get beaten by 60 points one game and 20 points the next while Cp3 shits the bed..

that sure as hell counts as a bad playoff run, which is why I brought it up.No they didn't. The whole team was injured in that series including CP. Only reason they even got to the playoffs was because CP had one of the best regular seasons ever for a PG. They were completely outmatched.
They certainly had their shot being up 3-2 in that series, but lost the last 2 games. Can you blame him though with TP9 closing out G7?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTFKogzdZk&feature=youtu.be&t=2m2sKobe blew a 3-1 lead once. So? Losing a 3-2 lead to the f*cking Spurs in your 1st year in the playoffs is supposed to be some big underachievement?

And stop calling Paker TP9. Shit is corny as f*ck.

[bballnoob1192]

So does Paul having Steph Curry down 45 in the playoffs somehow still impact who plays basketball better right now?

Or is an hour sample size from the past...irrelevant? I feel like it probably is. But you let me know.
a 3 seed beating a 6 seed in a series that went 7 games is your argument to CP3 losing to the spurs at home 1 year removed from his MVP worthy year, and as the higher seed. And then the beatdown he received from the nuggets the next year? :coleman:

just saying cp3 has a long history of sucking or underachieving in the playoffs

[Spurs m8]

Don't forget we have KL2

[knicksman]

westbrook Better? LOL that IQ:lol

[knicksman]

you know youre stupid when you set high expectations for a pg:lol . The last time they won as the man was in the 80's. Isiah won because they were the first to instill thug type defense while magic won by having the height of a center.