Convince me that Tim Duncan isn't a top 3 player all-time

[TonyMontana]

-The center of a championship team in 90s, 00s, 10s. 16 consecutive 50 win seasons(has to be a record by far, who is next closest?)

-One of the very best players in the league every year of his career UP TO age 39. Crazy and unrivaled longevity.

Now I will counter what I think people will say are the "knocks" of Tim Duncan.

The knocks seem to be that he is the product of a system? But I don't buy it. Without Tim Duncan that teams history would be very very different. As far as I am concerned he is the modern day Bill Russell, yet a greater individual player.

Another knock that he didn't have a super explosive "prime year" although his 2003 year is almost as good as anyones. 25 PPG 17 RPG 5 APG 5 BPG in the championship game carrying one of the weakest supporting casts of all-time. A Tony Parker that was just drafted and a David Robinson heading out the door averaging less than 10 PPG.

So his prime is good enough to me, but say you have all these players in a draft. How many guys would you honestly take over Duncan who you KNOW will stick with your team for 20 straight years playing at an elite level every single year?

Knowing that information I don't think there is a single plaer in the league I'd draft over him in an all-time draft.

[knicksman]

well if a 2/5 player is top 3 for you OP then how much for 5/6:lol

[ClipperRevival]

His personal hardware isn't on par with top 3 atg status. He's clearly top 10 atg but just not in the top 5. He's somewhere 6-10. Also, as you mentioned, his peak wasn't as resounding as say a Shaq, Wilt or Hakeem. He's up there, just not top 3. No shame in that.

[JohnFreeman]

wb Tony

[pauk]

Very easy, just take a look at Jordan's, Russell's & Kareem's career's and compare to Duncan... and there you go...

[knicksman]

Very easy, just take a look at Jordan's, Russell's & Kareem's career's and compare to Duncan... and there you go...

i know you want to include bran. Cmon dont be shy:lol

[TonyMontana]

Very easy, just take a look at Jordan's, Russell's & Kareem's career's and compare to Duncan... and there you go...

I've looked at them and I'm not convinced.

What did Russell do that Duncan didn't? Duncan is superior to him in every way. His however many rings in a 8 team league arn't more impressive than Duncans 5(soon to be 6 *******s) in a 30 team league.

Comparing the MVP across eras doesn't quite work either. The MVP in its current stage is just a fad award they give to the team that takes the next step and coasts through the year. Very rarely does it go to the best player. (See Rose in 2011, Curry this year). They get bored giving it to the same guy too many times.

I will take Duncan who I'm guaranteed to have at an elite level until he is 39 over any other player. I'll enjoy my 16 consecutive 50 win seasons.

[iamgine]

If extreme longevity's your thing, then Duncan, Stockton, Malone, Kareem's your guy.

[warriorfan]

system player....Duncan IS the system

[Kobe_6/8]

Michael Jordan - obvious reasons

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Duncan already has more playoff minutes than Kareem so even if he does get 6 rings, Kareem did it faster. Duncan's peak never approached Kareem's.

Random 3rd player better than Duncan

Duncan is an elite player with a lot of accomplishments, but his peak is nowhere near players like Shaq, Kareem, Wilt. No way he's a top 3.

[julizaver]

-The center of a championship team in 90s, 00s, 10s. 16 consecutive 50 win seasons(has to be a record by far, who is next closest?)



David Robinson played the center position during first 2 titles, and the reality is that Tim Duncan played the majority of his career at PF, although his natural position is center.

Tim Duncan is not ahead of guys like Kareem, MJ, Magic, even Shaq ... so it is safe to say that he doesn't belong to TOP 3.

[masonanddixon]

He's top 10 all time, but at his peak he was only marginally better if better than at all than Dirk and he was never as dominant as Kobe and Shaq. 2nd best player of the post-Jordan era though.

[K Xerxes]

David Robinson played the center position during first 2 titles, and the reality is that Tim Duncan played the majority of his career at PF, although his natural position is center.

I don't think he meant the center position, but rather the most important (central) player in the team.

[SwayDizzle]

No, just no. Duncan is GOAT #6. 3rd best player of the post-Jordan era. If he wins another ring, he moves to GOAT #5, surpassing Kobe and becoming the 2nd best player of the post-Jordan era. Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck in the all time rankings in terms of both team accomplishments and personal accolades. It hangs on how they close things off during these twilight years. Currently it is looking more promising for Duncan.

[julizaver]

I don't think he meant the center position, but rather the most important (central) player in the team.

No doubt that Duncan is the cornerstone of Spurs dynasty, but this doesn't mean that he is above Kareem, Shaq, MJ and Magic (not that these are the TOP 4 - just mentioning some TOP 10 players).

[fandarko]

His personal hardware isn't on par with top 3 atg status. He's clearly top 10 atg but just not in the top 5. He's somewhere 6-10. Also, as you mentioned, his peak wasn't as resounding as say a Shaq, Wilt or Hakeem. He's up there, just not top 3. No shame in that.

This

[ninephive]

There's almost no argument to keep him out of the top 5 at this point. I've said before that I have no problem with someone arguing for him at #3 over guys like Russell and Wilt. Both of them had significant weaknesses in their resume where Duncan's is complete.

If he wins another ring as a 1A/1B/1C player, I can see him beginning to have real arguments above Jordan and Kareem. Jordan had 5 losing seasons, Duncan had never had below 60% wins. Jordan's first few playoff runs were jokes (getting swept twice in the first round and beat easily by a Terry Cummings-led Milwaukee?) Kareem played with two top-15 players (Magic and Oscar), Duncan never played with a top-15 player.

[Jacks3]

:oldlol: ^

[iamgine]

I've said it before. Tim Duncan can suck going 1-100 FG in the playoff or win another ring as finals MVP. Both not gonna affect his rank at all.

[Leroy Jetson]

I've said it before. Tim Duncan can suck going 1-100 FG in the playoff or win another ring as finals MVP. Both not gonna affect his rank at all.
How would he not move up if he won FMVP? That's a ridiculous statement. I do agree that if he stunk it up in the finals, (not going to happen) and the spurs still won, he wouldn't necessarily move up.

[iamgine]

Spurs can lose badly with TD sucking hard and he won't move down at all.

Spurs can win again with TD as FMVP and he won't move up.

At this point he's set in stone.

[ShawkFactory]

Duncan made peak Shaq, who many call the MDE, look human multiple times in the playoffs. His peak didn't consist of the overall dominant numbers but Duncan at his best was every bit as good on the court head-to-head as peak Shaq was. That means something to me.

[SexSymbol]

He's not as good individually as at least 8 players in the top 10, but he has enough hardware to be like fifth.
The average of that is 6-7 which is his spot in the all-time rankings

[Kobe_6/8]

Duncan made peak Shaq, who many call the MDE, look human multiple times in the playoffs. His peak didn't consist of the overall dominant numbers but Duncan at his best was every bit as good on the court head-to-head as peak Shaq was. That means something to me.

Duncan and Shaq were dominating back then

1999 FMVP Duncan
2000 FMVP Shaq
2001 FMVP Shaq
2002 FMVP Shaq
2003 FMVP Duncan

[ninephive]

Spurs can lose badly with TD sucking hard and he won't move down at all.

Spurs can win again with TD as FMVP and he won't move up.

At this point he's set in stone.
So by your standards all that matters to you is peak play? If two players are equal in their peak and one falls off dramatically and never wins again and the other continues to win championships and FMVPs, there's no difference?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Duncan made peak Shaq, who many call the MDE, look human multiple times in the playoffs. His peak didn't consist of the overall dominant numbers but Duncan at his best was every bit as good on the court head-to-head as peak Shaq was. That means something to me.
Twin towers vs Shaq; such a fair comparison!

[ninephive]

:oldlol: ^
What's your argument against this?

Jordan was a great player but not good enough to even have a winning record or get to the second round of the playoffs even against weak competition in the Bucks. Jordan got outscored and outplayed dramatically by freaking Terry Cummings. Then the same Bucks team goes and gets swept by the freaking Sixers, who get destroyed the next round by the Celtics, who get beat by the Lakers in the Finals.

Then Jordan proceeds to have two more losing seasons (can't even lead his team to a .500 record) and can't win a single GAME in the playoffs for the next two years.

Then all of a sudden a guy named Scottie Pippen comes along and they actually finish with a winning record and even win a whole playoffs series.

Then a couple years later the greatest coach of all time comes along and they get one game away from making the NBA Finals. They start winning championships the very next season.

Then Jordan goes to the Wizards when he's 38 (younger than Duncan is now) and tries to win without the greatest sidekick of all time or the greatest coach of all time. Of course he can't make the playoffs or even finish with close to a winning record because he simply wasn't a good enough player to take a team of scrubs and be a contender. He had to have a good cast to even make the playoffs and had to have a great coach to win a championship.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I don't know about top-3 but I think he has a great case for top-5. If he can win another ring this season I think that he'll have a legitimate shot at top-3.

[ShawkFactory]

Twin towers vs Shaq; such a fair comparison!
Psshhh

2002 and 2003 is what I'm referring to more. Robinson was 36 and 37 years old and in his last 2 years.

Barely played 20 MPG in the playoffs. Averaged 5/6 in 2002 and 8/7 in 2003. Compare that to Duncans numbers.

[navy]

Duncan over Jordan? :roll:

Delusional. Jordan for all six of his titles played at a higher level than Duncan for maybe 1 title, in 2003.

This is a 6 time FMVP, not a 3 time FMVP . Duncan could average 12ppg and put the defense duties on the back of Tiago Splitter and probably still come close to winning a title if not winning anyways.

[dubeta]

There's almost no argument to keep him out of the top 5 at this point. I've said before that I have no problem with someone arguing for him at #3 over guys like Russell and Wilt. Both of them had significant weaknesses in their resume where Duncan's is complete.

If he wins another ring as a 1A/1B/1C player, I can see him beginning to have real arguments above Jordan and Kareem. Jordan had 5 losing seasons, Duncan had never had below 60% wins. Jordan's first few playoff runs were jokes (getting swept twice in the first round and beat easily by a Terry Cummings-led Milwaukee?) Kareem played with two top-15 players (Magic and Oscar), Duncan never played with a top-15 player.

:oldlol:


Woah slow down, Duncan still needs to catch LeBron imo before he can reach the Jordan, Kareem status.

More role-player rings isnt the way to do it.

[ninephive]

:oldlol:


Woah slow down, Duncan still needs to catch LeBron imo before he can reach the Jordan, Kareem status.

More role-player rings isnt the way to do it.
Duncan is 11-5 against Lebron in the playoffs. Let's at least let Lebron get to half of Duncan's wins against him (especially because he's been playing him in his absolute prime) before we go there.

[ninephive]

:oldlol:


Woah slow down, Duncan still needs to catch LeBron imo before he can reach the Jordan, Kareem status.

More role-player rings isnt the way to do it.
I'm not sure you understand the difference between 1a/1b/1c and a roleplayer. Might want to do some research.

[dubeta]

Duncan is 11-5 against Lebron in the playoffs. Let's at least let Lebron get to half of Duncan's wins against him (especially because he's been playing him in his absolute prime) before we go there.

And yet never won a FMVP against LeBron


Whats next? Norris Cole has a winning record against Paul George in the playoffs.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Psshhh

2002 and 2003 is what I'm referring to more. Robinson was 36 and 37 years old and in his last 2 years.

Barely played 20 MPG in the playoffs. Averaged 5/6 in 2002 and 8/7 in 2003. Compare that to Duncans numbers.
2003 isn't "peak" Shaq.

Also, its not really about D-Rob's raw numbers. When given minutes, he was one of the highest defensive impact players.

Shaq having to score against those 2 makes the comparison meh.

[ninephive]

Duncan over Jordan? :roll:

Delusional. Jordan for all six of his titles played at a higher level than Duncan for maybe 1 title, in 2003.

This is a 6 time FMVP, not a 3 time FMVP . Duncan could average 12ppg and put the defense duties on the back of Tiago Splitter and probably still come close to winning a title if not winning anyways.
Are you saying Jordan could have won without Pippen and the greatest coach of all time? Dude couldn't even get a winning record before or after those guys. He wouldn't have even made the playoffs with the amount of teams we have now with the types of seasons he had.

[jayfan]

Is this a joke?



.

[navy]

Are you saying Jordan could have won without Pippen and the greatest coach of all time? Dude couldn't even get a winning record before or after those guys. He wouldn't have even made the playoffs with the amount of teams we have now with the types of seasons he had.
I never said he would have won with or without anyone.

I said he played at a higher level than Duncan for all but 1 or maybe 2 of his rings. He could have had the most stacked cast of all time, but as long as he is playing at a higher level I wouldnt care because he was needed to produce at all time great levels to win. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking Duncan winning a ring with his teammates at or even above him in the Finals but still well below Jordan means he can surpass him.

[greatest-ever]

Well i have him 4-5 now. If he wins the title this year especially with a Fmvp it would be hard to not put him top 3, ar least for me. Could you imagine 6 rings and 4 FMVPs?! In that case i would put him 3rd behind Mj and Kareem. Its also a joke that he never won DPOY.

Yeah, it is pretty dumb for someone to say he never had an all time great prime year(s). His 2003 season is a top 8 peak, and his 02 season is right up there.

It's pretty dumb to suggest that he has no argument for top 5 goat. There isn't 5 players who are undoubtedly ahead. A lot will say Bird and Magic are for sure ahead but it's not a given, Duncan's longevity is way better and he had a 2 way impact that these guys didn't.

[greatest-ever]

And yet never won a FMVP against LeBron


Whats next? Norris Cole has a winning record against Paul George in the playoffs.
Wait why does it matter if he got Fmvp when he beat Lebron? Thats arbitrary, and if they would've beat the heat in 2013 like they should've then he wouldve likely got it then.

[jayfan]

In an all-time draft, would he be even a top-10 pick?





.

[kurple]

I've said it before. Tim Duncan can suck going 1-100 FG in the playoff or win another ring as finals MVP. Both not gonna affect his rank at all.
what

[kurple]

he's #4 behind jordan, russell and KAJ

[Kris75]

Someone said Jordan started winning only after getting a GOAT coach. The point is that once he had the GOAT coach, he bagged 6 championships in 6 (full) seasons - 100% conversion rate. Besides never lost a series while having HCA. He made it count when he had a good team and coach.

Duncan had a GOAT-level coach since day 1 and is 5/16. And individually Jordan 's level was much higher in the championship seasons.

Another way of looking at it: Replace Grant with Duncan and Jordan with a Grant-level SG on those Bulls teams; I can't imagine them winning 6 ships.

If you replace Manu Ginobili with Jordan and Duncan with a Ginobili-level PF on the Spurs, I can see them winning more than 5 in the last 13 seasons.

[T_L_P]

Michael Jordan - obvious reasons

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Duncan already has more playoff minutes than Kareem so even if he does get 6 rings, Kareem did it faster. Duncan's peak never approached Kareem's.

Random 3rd player better than Duncan

Duncan is an elite player with a lot of accomplishments, but his peak is nowhere near players like Shaq, Kareem, Wilt. No way he's a top 3.

Most WS ever in a postseason
2nd best WS/48 for a title run
2nd best BPM for a title run

Had to be his team's primary scorer, playmaker, defender and leader.

I'm not saying it's necessarily ahead of those guys, but the idea that it's not even close is pretty ridiculous. For a stretch of 25 games he averaged 25/15/5 on an incredibly slow team (just over 90 PPG), with GOAT-tier defense (certainly better than anything Shaq or Kareem approached) without giving two shits about the numbers (believe me, if he were enamoured by the numbers he probably could have done better, especially if he told players to chuck up shots as soon as he passed to them, ala Chamberlain).

That said, Duncan's not top 3. I have him #5, which is where I'd pick him in an all-time draft.

[ShawkFactory]

In an all-time draft, would he be even a top-10 pick?





.
Why not? You'd get an MVP-level, and best in the league player at his peak combined with probably 20 total years of defensive anchoring and intangibles. I'd draft him over Shaq.

[houston]

top5 for sure

[ILLsmak]

he's #4 behind jordan, russell and KAJ

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I def think Duncan is climbing, but I can't put him over Bird and Shaq, either. Magic and Wilt are there, too. The only person you can really argue him over that I listed is Shaq. Duncan is solid, but I don't see him as top 5.

The reason I pick Shaq is because I think Shaq was better, period. Shaq could have done anything Duncan did with any Duncan team.

Duncan is over Kobe, he's over Hakeem now for sure, over Bron now (maybe always.)

But over the 'six' and Shaq? I dunno. I can't do it.

Much respect, tho.

-Smak

[rmt]

There's almost no argument to keep him out of the top 5 at this point. I've said before that I have no problem with someone arguing for him at #3 over guys like Russell and Wilt. Both of them had significant weaknesses in their resume where Duncan's is complete.

If he wins another ring as a 1A/1B/1C player, I can see him beginning to have real arguments above Jordan and Kareem. Jordan had 5 losing seasons, Duncan had never had below 60% wins. Jordan's first few playoff runs were jokes (getting swept twice in the first round and beat easily by a Terry Cummings-led Milwaukee?) Kareem played with two top-15 players (Magic and Oscar), Duncan never played with a top-15 player.

I'm a huge Duncan fan, but there is no way he has any argument above Kareem and especially Jordan if he wins another ring. If he were to three peat and win FMVP both times, then there's a case vs KAJ (6 rings vs 7 rings, 6 MVPs/2FMVPs vs 2MVPs/5FMVPs) but still not vs Jordan.

[IllegalD]

Tim DunCAN'T is not a Top 3 Player All-Time because Jordan, Kareem, and Kobe.

[Warners0]

Michael Jordan - obvious reasons

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Duncan already has more playoff minutes than Kareem so even if he does get 6 rings, Kareem did it faster. Duncan's peak never approached Kareem's.

Random 3rd player better than Duncan

Duncan is an elite player with a lot of accomplishments, but his peak is nowhere near players like Shaq, Kareem, Wilt. No way he's a top 3.

You know why Kareem did it faster. Because he cried his way out of Milwaukee to play in L.A.

Duncan's run is more impressive because he did it with one team. The team that drafted him and they have been contenders pretty much every year he has played on that team regardless of supporting cast.

I agree with the OP.

In fact I would take it further. There is no player in the history of basketball I would rather build around than Duncan and I'm a bulls fan.

He has proven you can put pretty much any supporting cast around him and he will take you to a 50 win season minimum every year and no other player in the league can say that.

[Warners0]

David Robinson played the center position during first 2 titles, and the reality is that Tim Duncan played the majority of his career at PF, although his natural position is center.

Tim Duncan is not ahead of guys like Kareem, MJ, Magic, even Shaq ... so it is safe to say that he doesn't belong to TOP 3.

David Robinson barely played during the 03 season. What a joke. David Robinson was a bench player during the 03 season. Down the stretch Malik Rose was getting minutes over him. Give me a break.

[Warners0]

There's almost no argument to keep him out of the top 5 at this point. I've said before that I have no problem with someone arguing for him at #3 over guys like Russell and Wilt. Both of them had significant weaknesses in their resume where Duncan's is complete.

If he wins another ring as a 1A/1B/1C player, I can see him beginning to have real arguments above Jordan and Kareem. Jordan had 5 losing seasons, Duncan had never had below 60% wins. Jordan's first few playoff runs were jokes (getting swept twice in the first round and beat easily by a Terry Cummings-led Milwaukee?) Kareem played with two top-15 players (Magic and Oscar), Duncan never played with a top-15 player.


Dude Duncan is better than Jordan right now. Like you said he did more with less than anyone. People keep bringing up David Robinson but he was only a factor in that 99 championship. And he was nowhere as good as people think he was. When people think of David Robinson they think of pre knee surgery David Robinson. But he wasn't that guy once Duncan got on the team. He had one really amazing year after his surgery and then there was a sharp decline in his production. Which people don't seem to get.

David Robinson never achieved all nba status in any of Duncan championship runs. He was never playing at that level.

While Jordan played with Pippen his entire championship run one of the best small forward of all time in his prime. Plus Rodman the greatest rebounder ever.

[fourkicks44]

Dude Duncan is better than Jordan right now. Like you said he did more with less than anyone. People keep bringing up David Robinson but he was only a factor in that 99 championship. And he was nowhere as good as people think he was. When people think of David Robinson they think of pre knee surgery David Robinson. But he wasn't that guy once Duncan got on the team. He had one really amazing year after his surgery and then there was a sharp decline in his production. Which people don't seem to get.

David Robinson never achieved all nba status in any of Duncan championship runs. He was never playing at that level.

While Jordan played with Pippen his entire championship run one of the best small forward of all time in his prime. Plus Rodman the greatest rebounder ever.

Spoken like:

a) Some one that doesn't know shit.

b) someone that is trying to trying to troll but can't, making himself look like a jack ass.

Either way you fail.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Tim DunCAN'T is not a Top 3 Player All-Time because Jordan, Kareem, and Kobe.

Thanks for letting us know that you have no idea what you're talking about. **** outta this thread please. :oldlol:

Duncan might have a case to bump Russell from my top-3 if he can win another ring.

[Nastradamus]

He might well be. GOAT defensive player at the least.

[navy]

He might well be. GOAT defensive player at the least.
:biggums:

0 defensive player of the years.

[Nowitness]

:biggums:

0 defensive player of the years.

Voted on by who?

Kobe has 9 defensive first teams, defensive awards are corrupt.

[Cold soul]

Duncan top 6-10 player of all-time he's in Shaq, Kobe range as all-time greats go another ring he surpasses both and becomes best player post MJ. His longevity is unmatched sustained greatness winning 50 or games year in and out over span of a decade is flat out crazy. It be sad day when he decides to retire, he might be most underrated not talked about all-time great the NBA has seen.

[ninephive]

Someone said Jordan started winning only after getting a GOAT coach. The point is that once he had the GOAT coach, he bagged 6 championships in 6 (full) seasons - 100% conversion rate. Besides never lost a series while having HCA. He made it count when he had a good team and coach.

Duncan had a GOAT-level coach since day 1 and is 5/16. And individually Jordan 's level was much higher in the championship seasons.

Another way of looking at it: Replace Grant with Duncan and Jordan with a Grant-level SG on those Bulls teams; I can't imagine them winning 6 ships.

If you replace Manu Ginobili with Jordan and Duncan with a Ginobili-level PF on the Spurs, I can see them winning more than 5 in the last 13 seasons.
Jordan got beat by Detroit in 1990 with Phil and by Orlando in 1995 with Phil. He didn't have 100% conversion rate even if you for some reason throw out the 1995 season (which he had 17 RS games just to prepare for the postseason...I don't see this as an excuse, especially when Orlando went and got embarrassingly swept by the Rockets...it's not like he even lost to a great team).

I'm not arguing that Jordan didn't have success when he had all those pieces in place. That's the strength of Jordan's resume. The weakness is that we know for a fact that he couldn't win without those pieces (we saw it happen before his championships and after them)...and not only not win championships, but not even be a competitive team. We've never seen that with Duncan, but then we'll never know because Duncan's always had a great coach and outside of 2001-2003 always had a really good supporting cast.

So for Duncan having a losing season or not making the playoffs is purely hypothetical. It's not with Jordan...he actually led really bad teams.