Grant/Rodman vs. Bosh

[Prometheus]

Who was a better player, Horace Grant or Chris Bosh?
Who was a better player, Dennis Rodman or Chris Bosh?

[97 bulls]

Who was a better player, Horace Grant or Chris Bosh?
Who was a better player, Dennis Rodman or Chris Bosh?
Rodman then Bosh then Grant

[97 bulls]

Rodman > Bosh

Grant > Bosh

Pippen > Bosh

Kukoc > Bosh

Kerr > Bosh

Longley > Bosh
Great post

[navy]

Rodman
Bosh
Grant

In that order

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'd take Grant over Bosh, tbh.

Better in the post, a good midrange player (not prone to hide out beyond the arc), and a greater defender.

[ClipperRevival]

Bosh was the most complete out of all of them. He could give you 20-22 ppg and shoot the 3 while providing some rim protection and rebounding.

Rodman is the greatest rebounder ever and arugably the most versatile defender ever. He's also clearly the most athletic of the 3 but didn't have much of an offensive game.

Grant is clearly 3rd in this debate and is a good pace behind the other 2.

I could see most people taking Bosh given his offensive game. But if I am starting a team, give me Rodman and his rebounding, versatile D and hustle. I will find my scoring somewhere else.

[DonDadda59]

Depends what your team needs. Rodman was never the best player on any team he played for, and never would've been on any team. But you wouldn't fault a GM for taking him over Bosh who is capable of being a 20/10 first option on a playoff team.

Don't think Grant had the talent to be more than a 2nd-3rd option, but he brought a lot to the table.

[97 bulls]

Depends what your team needs. Rodman was never the best player on any team he played for, and never would've been on any team. But you wouldn't fault a GM for taking him over Bosh who is capable of being a 20/10 first option on a playoff team.

Don't think Grant had the talent to be more than a 2nd-3rd option, but he brought a lot to the table.
I think Rodman was the best player on the 92 Pistons. Anx they won 48 games

[ClipperRevival]

I'd take Grant over Bosh, tbh.

Better in the post, a good midrange player (not prone to hide out beyond the arc), and a greater defender.

Huh? Bosh did everything better than Grant except maybe run the floor. Bosh had a deadly midrange and his offensive game was much more complete. He could carry your team offensively in stretches while Grant couldn't. But yeah, you're a Lebron fan if I am not mistaken and you need to degrade his supporting cast to boost Lebron's legacy right?

[MJistheGOAT]

Agenda thread of Lebron stans to prop up their hero and attack MJ

Offense: Bosh >>>> Grant>Rodman
Defense/Reb: Rodman >> Grant >> Bosh

Too different players, without a context it

[ShawkFactory]

If I already have 2 good/great offensive players on my team I'd take Rodman over Bosh with ease.

If I'm starting a team I'd take Bosh with ease.

Don't really know enough about Grant to make an accurate call.

[sportjames23]

Only thing Bosh is better than Grant and Rodman is offense. Defense, rebounding, gimme Grant and the Worm.

And I know OP is trying to call out 3ball with this thread.

[dubeta]

Does this thread confirm that Jordan had a much better supporting cast than LeBron?

[ClipperRevival]

Only thing Bosh is better than Grant and Rodman is offense. Defense, rebounding, gimme Grant and the Worm.

And I know OP is trying to call out 3ball with this thread.

You are selling Bosh's D short. He was their primary big and rim protector during the Heat run. He could provide some decent rim protection at times. He could move his feet on D and on p&r defense. Bosh had to carry more of an offensive burden so he wasn't able to expend all of his energy on D and rebounding. But the guy was long and athletic and along with Bron and Wade, could suffocate you on D with their speed and athleticism.

In a way, both the Bulls and Heat were very similiar teams. Both led by two atg wing players and a 3rd fiddle power forward. Both teams could overwhelm you in stretches on D with their speed and athleticism and ability to cover a lot of ground.

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=MJistheGOAT]Agenda thread of Lebron stans to prop up their hero and attack MJ

Offense: Bosh >>>> Grant>Rodman
Defense/Reb: Rodman >> Grant >> Bosh

Too different players, without a context it

[3ball]

:facepalm

jfc, you guys are all thinking of peak 1990 and 1991, back-to-back DPOY Rodman - the guy that guarded all 5 positions including MJ (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858).

I'd take that guy over Bosh too.

But Rodman was 34 years old by the time he got to the Bulls in 1996 - by then he was just an inside banger - he wasn't as quick, couldn't guard ballhandlers anymore and wasn't anywhere near the same type of player.

There is no way anyone would take THAT Rodman over Bosh - you guys do realize Rodman averaged 3/8 the entire 1997 playoffs (that's PPG/RPG) and 3/8 again in the 1998 Finals?.. When has Bosh ever played that bad?

[nzahir]

Offense:Bosh>Grant>Rodman
Defense and rebounding: Rodman>Grant>Bosh
Starting a team and this is our go to guy: Bosh>Grant>Rodman
Best for a team with stars already there: Rodman>Grant>Bosh

[The_Pharcyde]

Does this thread confirm that Jordan had a much better supporting cast than LeBron?

even if he did, you act as if LBJ and MJ accomplished the same success with their respective crew and the crew around them is how you differentiate the two
MJ accomplished winning 6 titles, whereas LBJ has 2, Jordan won 3 times as much as LBJ as well as having the Statistical advantage

Jordan had 13 seasons with the Bulls, 11 full
46.1% of the time Jordan won the title if you count all 13..
54.5% of the time if you take away the 18 game year with the broken foot and the 18 month absence in which he played 17 games

Lebron has 11 full years in the league with 2 titles
18.1% of the time he won the title

Jordan has the stats advantage, the title count, the finals mvp count, the regular season mvp count, the dpoy count, off court revenue and stardom... you name it, MJ has the advantage

As usual you will point to arbitrary arguments like weak supporting casts for lbj, "wade sabotaging the finals"(lol) or weak competition..
all arguments which no matter how you word it or how adamant you are about it, have no quantitative substance and can never be proven.
I can tell you are not a Business man because you dont look at results, only the means but not the ends..

MJ> LBJ deal with it.. its not mythology or old people whining about their era, it is the truth
I'm sorry, stop making people dislike LBJ cause you have this imaginary legacy built for him as the GOAT... its only lbj fans who think that

Get real with yourself

[gts]

Bosh is the best basketball player of the three.. he's the only one you'd even consider building a team around

Rodman is an energy guy but he's not going to carry a team and Grant is a role player, neither one was an offensive minded player

[dubeta]

even if he did, you act as if LBJ and MJ accomplished the same success with their respective crew and the crew around them is how you differentiate the two
MJ accomplished winning 6 titles, whereas LBJ has 2, Jordan won 3 times as much as LBJ as well as having the Statistical advantage

Jordan had 13 seasons with the Bulls, 11 full
46.1% of the time Jordan won the title if you count all 13..
54.5% of the time if you take away the 18 game year with the broken foot and the 18 month absence in which he played 17 games

Lebron has 11 full years in the league with 2 titles
18.1% of the time he won the title

Jordan has the stats advantage, the title count, the finals mvp count, the regular season mvp count, the dpoy count, off court revenue and stardom... you name it, MJ has the advantage

As usual you will point to arbitrary arguments like weak supporting casts for lbj, "wade sabotaging the finals"(lol) or weak competition..
all arguments which no matter how you word it or how adamant you are about it, have no quantitative substance and can never be proven.
I can tell you are not a Business man because you dont look at results, only the means but not the ends..

MJ> LBJ deal with it.. its not mythology or old people whining about their era, it is the truth
I'm sorry, stop making people dislike LBJ cause you have this imaginary legacy built for him as the GOAT... its only lbj fans who think that

Get real with yourself

Do you deny that? :facepalm

[Prometheus]

For the record, I believe MJ > LBJ comfortably, and forever. Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player that has ever lived. I also like LeBron, but have zero interest in debating the comparative greatness of those two players.

Please do not let this thread be derailed. I only want to compare these three power forwards.

[The_Pharcyde]

Do you deny that? :facepalm

Yeah im gonna have to facepalm myself for writing out something so time consuming to a legitimately stupid person, :facepalm

[SouBeachTalents]

For the record, I believe MJ > LBJ comfortably, and forever. Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player that has ever lived. I also like LeBron, but have zero interest in debating the comparative greatness of those two players.

Please do not let this thread be derailed. I only want to compare these three power forwards.

How would you rank them?

[Prometheus]

How would rank them?

I agree with several others who have posted in this thread - that it depends on the team.

Bosh is the only one of the three who could potentially be a first option on offense. However, a team with Bosh as its leading scorer is not likely to win much.

All three are good defenders, but Rodman stands out. If your team already has solid offensive firepower, I believe Bosh is the worst of the three. He is a very weak inside presence, and has been dominated in the post by physical players on a consistent basis.

As I said, I am not interested in comparing Jordan and LeBron, but obviously I am interested in comparing their supporting casts. For years I have been annoyed by the hyperbole about how "stacked" Miami was during the big-three era. Even in the summer of 2010, as they were putting on their cringe-worthy preemptive celebration, I found myself thinking that Wade/LeBron was a redundant pair, and Bosh was overrated.

tl;dr: for the roles they were called on to play, I'd go Rodman, Grant, Bosh.

[3ball]

I found myself thinking that Wade/LeBron was a redundant pair,


so you are using their playing styles to reduce the assessment of their talent?

that makes no sense.





and Bosh was overrated.


Rodman's defense is still largely replaceable - MJ already 3-peated with Horace's defense, so Bosh's would have sufficed as well.

But Bosh's vastly superior OFFENSE would have made it unfair for the rest of the league.. With Rodman's 3 PPG, the 1997 Bulls still registered a 115.2 ORtg, which is the best of all time.. But with Bosh's 20 PPG, the Bulls offense would've been utterly insane - it would've registered a 120+ ORtg for the entire season, kind of like the Spurs in the 2014 Finals.

Btw, Rodman only averaged 3 PPG and 8 RPG in the entire 1997 playoffs and he put up another 3/8 in the 1998 Finals - when has Bosh ever played that poorly?.. Rodman's poor performance is part of the reason the Bulls couldn't blow everyone away in the postseason like they did in the regular season (69 wins) - but with Bosh there doing MUCH better than 3/8, the Bulls would've blown everyone away like they were supposed to.

[Beastmode88]

damn jordan had pippen and grant AND he still had to manage 41 ppg in the finals to win a ring? :biggums: :biggums: GOAT GONNA GOAT :bowdown:

[dubeta]

so you are using their playing styles to reduce the assessment of their talent?

that makes no sense.



Rodman's defense is still largely replaceable - MJ already 3-peated with Horace's defense, so Bosh's would have sufficed as well.

But Bosh's vastly superior OFFENSE would have made it unfair for the rest of the league.. With Rodman's 3 PPG, the 1997 Bulls still registered a 115.2 ORtg, which is the best of all time.. But with Bosh's 20 PPG, the Bulls offense would've been utterly insane - it would've registered a 120+ ORtg for the entire season, kind of like the Spurs in the 2014 Finals.

Btw, Rodman only averaged 3 PPG and 8 RPG in the entire 1997 playoffs and he put up another 3/8 in the 1998 Finals - when has Bosh ever played that poorly?.. Rodman's poor performance is part of the reason the Bulls couldn't blow everyone away in the postseason like they did in the regular season (69 wins) - but with Bosh there doing MUCH better than 3/8, the Bulls would've blown everyone away like they were supposed to.


This is a lie, Bosh averaged a putrid 12 ppg in the playoffs (2013) to go along with 6 rebounds and non existent defense

[Beastmode88]

This is a lie, Bosh averaged a putrid 12 ppg in the playoffs (2013) to go along with 6 rebounds and non existent defense

bosh had the most crucial rebound followed up by a pass to ray allen for the game 6 game tying shot. :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zYoE0OzoBU (Heres the video, as you can see it only happens because lebron missed)

[dubeta]

bosh had the most crucial rebound followed up by a pass to ray allen for the game 6 game tying shot. :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

Yup, but if Bosh actually played like a good player, instead of camping 30 feet from the basket, the Heat wouldnt have been put in that situation

[Beastmode88]

Yup, but if Bosh actually played like a good player, instead of camping 30 feet from the basket, the Heat wouldnt have been put in that situation

sounds like lebron turning people into spot up shooters. first bosh now love. :cry:

[dubeta]

sounds like lebron turning people into spot up shooters. first bosh now love. :cry:

LeBron has never done that. You have no proof and just trolling :facepalm

[J Shuttlesworth]

bosh had the most crucial rebound followed up by a pass to ray allen for the game 6 game tying shot. :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zYoE0OzoBU (Heres the video, as you can see it only happens because lebron missed)
Such a terrible argument.

One rebound doesn't make up for the fact that you had a mediocre series/playoff run. If he put up his usual numbers, the Heat would probably have won in 6, but he was getting torched by Duncan all series long... and let's not forget that he had a 0 pt game 7 in the finals.

Grant/Rodman had far more impressive playoff performances than Bosh's 2013.

[Beastmode88]

LeBron has never done that. You have no proof and just trolling :facepalm

Thats weird cause chris bosh's 3PA per game in Toronto went 0.3 to 1.6 in miami whlist his fta went from 7.4 to 4.7. Very interesting.

[Micku]

Give me Grant as third option because he provides you rebounds and better defense tho Bosh defense was pretty good with the big 3 reign. 1st or 2nd option? Gimme Bosh.

I would take Rodman over Bosh if I already have stars on the team. I would take Bosh to start off the team tho.

[3ball]

Such a terrible argument.

One rebound doesn't make up for the fact that you had a mediocre series/playoff run. If he put up his usual numbers, the Heat would probably have won in 6, but he was getting torched by Duncan all series long... and let's not forget that he had a 0 pt game 7 in the finals.

Grant/Rodman had far more impressive playoff performances than Bosh's 2013.


nothing is worse than the 3 PPG and 8 RPG Rodman put up in 1997 playoffs.

show me where bosh played that bad?

and rodman did the same thing in the 1998 Finals - 3 PPG and 8 RPG.. complete MIA, far worse than anything Bosh has ever done.
.

[Beastmode88]

Also kevin love's 3pa went from 3.3 to 5.2 and fta went from 6.4 to 4.3. :wtf:

[dubeta]

Also kevin love's 3pa went from 3.3 to 5.2 and fta went from 6.4 to 4.3. :wtf:

No he didnt. Kevin Love averaged MORE 3's last year than this.

[JebronLames]

Thats weird cause chris bosh's 3PA per game in Toronto went 0.3 to 1.6 in miami whlist his fta went from 7.4 to 4.7. Very interesting.
big reason that happened was because bosh had to play out of position. His role was a defensive center on that team. Most of his energy went towards that end. He was getting out muscled against most centers. Heat weren't able to use his strengths because they didn't have a good center. They weren't able to maximize his value. Another reason why LeBron winning 2 championships was so impressive.

[Beastmode88]

No he didnt. Kevin Love averaged MORE 3's last year than this.

I was talking about his timberwolves career avg vs his cavs avg but how would u explain bosh?

[J Shuttlesworth]

nothing is worse than the 3 PPG and 8 RPG Rodman put up in 1997.

show me where bosh played that bad?

and rodman did the same thing in the 1998 Finals - 3 PPG and 8 RPG.. complete MIA, far worse than anything Bosh has ever done.
? I didn't say that Rodman's worst is better than Bosh.

And Rodman's impact clearly goes beyond the stat sheet. His defense, and toughness is elite.

96 Rodman >>> 13 Bosh despite lower PPG

[Beastmode88]

big reason that happened was because bosh had to play out of position. His role was a defensive center on that team. Most of his energy went towards that end. He was getting out muscled against most centers. Heat weren't able to use his strengths because they didn't have a good center. They weren't able to maximize his value. Another reason why LeBron winning 2 championships was so impressive.

You act like bosh had to guard shaq. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[J Shuttlesworth]

Also kevin love's 3pa went from 3.3 to 5.2 and fta went from 6.4 to 4.3. :wtf:
What is his win % difference?

[MJistheGOAT]

I don't get how Jordans teammates can be used to degrade him. Its dumb. No player wins without sufficient support.

A better argument would be not winning when you should

I agree, but we all know this was a weak agenda thread that tried to say "MJ had the GOAT supporting cast and LBJ only D leaguers, so LBJ>MJ"

[3ball]

? I didn't say that Rodman's worst is better than Bosh.

And Rodman's impact clearly goes beyond the stat sheet. His defense, and toughness is elite.

96 Rodman >>> 13 Bosh despite lower PPG
Again, Jordan didn't need Rodman's defense to 3-peat.. He only needed Horace Grant's.

Bosh's would've also worked, especially considering he would have been scoring at least 18 PPG, or 600% more than Rodman's 3 PPG, and 60% more than Horace's 11 PPG.

Do you realize the Bulls got a best-ever 115.2 ORtg in 1997 while Rodman averaged 3 PPG?.. How many more PPG would Bosh average, and how much better would that ORtg be?.. The Bulls offense would have been insane - what if they had a 118 or even 120 ORtg with Bosh?... With a 117-120 ORtg, wouldn't they be the best team ever BY FAR?

[sportjames23]

even if he did, you act as if LBJ and MJ accomplished the same success with their respective crew and the crew around them is how you differentiate the two
MJ accomplished winning 6 titles, whereas LBJ has 2, Jordan won 3 times as much as LBJ as well as having the Statistical advantage

Jordan had 13 seasons with the Bulls, 11 full
46.1% of the time Jordan won the title if you count all 13..
54.5% of the time if you take away the 18 game year with the broken foot and the 18 month absence in which he played 17 games

Lebron has 11 full years in the league with 2 titles
18.1% of the time he won the title

Jordan has the stats advantage, the title count, the finals mvp count, the regular season mvp count, the dpoy count, off court revenue and stardom... you name it, MJ has the advantage

As usual you will point to arbitrary arguments like weak supporting casts for lbj, "wade sabotaging the finals"(lol) or weak competition..
all arguments which no matter how you word it or how adamant you are about it, have no quantitative substance and can never be proven.
I can tell you are not a Business man because you dont look at results, only the means but not the ends..

MJ> LBJ deal with it.. its not mythology or old people whining about their era, it is the truth
I'm sorry, stop making people dislike LBJ cause you have this imaginary legacy built for him as the GOAT... its only lbj fans who think that

Get real with yourself


Some of the strongest ether I've ever encountered.

[navy]

Some of the strongest ether I've ever encountered.
How can you ether dubeta by responding to his trolling? He's laughing right behind his computer screen. :oldlol:

[dubeta]

How can you ether dubeta by responding to his trolling? He's laughing right behind his computer screen. :oldlol:

PM me, boy

[J Shuttlesworth]

Again, Jordan didn't need Rodman's defense to 3-peat.. He only needed Horace Grant's.

Bosh's would've also worked, especially considering he would have been scoring at least 18 PPG, or 600% more than Rodman's 3 PPG, and 60% more than Horace's 11 PPG.

Do you realize the Bulls got a best-ever 115.2 ORtg in 1997 while Rodman averaged 3 PPG?.. How many more PPG would Bosh average, and how much better would that ORtg be?.. The Bulls offense would have been insane - what if they had a 118 or even 120 ORtg with Bosh?... With a 117-120 ORtg, wouldn't they be the best team ever BY FAR?
Where do you get this idea? Bosh was only putting up 12 ppg in 2013 playing next to a superstar who is less selfish than Jordan. If anything, he would be putting up less PPG on the Bulls. He would have similar stats to Grant, but less rebounding and impact.

Plus, Bosh was playing Center for the Heat. He would get abused by Ewing/Oakley. He was abused by 36 year old Duncan. Barkley/Malone would feast on Bosh

[3ball]

Where do you get this idea? Bosh was only putting up 12 ppg in 2013 playing next to a superstar who is less selfish than Jordan. If anything, he would be putting up less PPG on the Bulls. He would have similar stats to Grant, but less rebounding and impact.
Disavow yourself of this notion that Lebron is less selfish - he not only gets less assists in the playoffs and Finals, but in order to get his stats, he holds the ball far longer than Jordan - holding onto the ball and forcing teammates to wait around and adjust their games is not unselfish.. it's actually quite selfish.

Also, you're going against the eyetest just to support a bias - the eyetest tells EVERYONE that Bosh is a vastly superior offensive player than Grant.. It's not remotely close.. You can't say Horace is on Bosh's level offensively and think posters will believe you just because you posted it - WE'VE SEEN BOSH PLAY.. We know he's vastly superior offensively to both Horace and Rodman.

If you can't see and admit that, then you're wasting your time.. Bosh is career 19/9, while Grant is career 11/8... :hammerhead:... Btw, Rodman averaged 3 PPG and 8 RPG for the entire 1997 playoffs - Bosh has never played that bad.
.

[sportjames23]

How can you ether dubeta by responding to his trolling? He's laughing right behind his computer screen. :oldlol:


Ether don't care whether someone is trolling or not. Ether is ether.

You know this, homie. :coleman:

[J Shuttlesworth]

Disavow yourself of this notion that Lebron is less selfish - he not only gets less assists in the playoffs and Finals, but in order to get his stats, he holds the ball far longer than Jordan - holding onto the ball and forcing teammates to wait around and adjust their games is not unselfish.. it's actually quite selfish.

Also, you're going against the eyetest just to support a bias - the eyetest tells EVERYONE that Bosh is a vastly superior offensive player than Grant.. It's not remotely close.. You can't say Horace is on Bosh's level offensively and think posters will believe you just because you posted it - WE'VE SEEN BOSH PLAY.. We know he's vastly superior offensively to both Horace and Rodman.

If you can't see and admit that, then you're wasting your time.. Bosh is career 19/9, while Grant is career 11/8... :hammerhead:
Nice try, but LeBron averages more assists per 36 on lower usage rate in the playoffs. It's pretty clear who is the less selfish player.

Actually, I never said Bosh is worse offensively than Rodman.

But Bosh would still be playing 3rd wheel behind Jordan/Pippen for obvious reasons. Horace Grant/Rodman defense/rebounding >>>> Bosh. Bosh won't be able to put up 18 ppg in the playoffs as a 3rd option on the bulls. He'd be putting up about the same as he was on the Heat (11-14 ppg) which is similar to Horace Grant.

And please tell me how Bosh is going to play against big men like Ewing, Mourning, Malone, Olajuwon (potentially), etc.

I mean you constantly tell me this era is weak, and then you turn around to say that Bosh would have better numbers in the 90s? :biggums:

[ClipperRevival]

Disavow yourself of this notion that Lebron is less selfish - he not only gets less assists in the playoffs and Finals, but in order to get his stats, he holds the ball far longer than Jordan - holding onto the ball and forcing teammates to wait around and adjust their games is not unselfish.. it's actually quite selfish.

Also, you're going against the eyetest just to support a bias - the eyetest tells EVERYONE that Bosh is a vastly superior offensive player than Grant.. It's not remotely close.. You can't say Horace is on Bosh's level offensively and think posters will believe you just because you posted it - WE'VE SEEN BOSH PLAY.. We know he's vastly superior offensively to both Horace and Rodman.

If you can't see and admit that, then you're wasting your time.. Bosh is career 19/9, while Grant is career 11/8... :hammerhead:... Btw, Rodman averaged 3 PPG and 8 RPG for the entire 1997 playoffs - Bosh has never played that bad.
.

Yes. It's obvious Bosh is far superior to both on offense. Anyone debating this is simply in denial of the obvious. But on the flip side, you degrading Rodman by throwing up stats isn't fair to him because he's never been a stats guy. He is the type of guy who can have a huge impact in the game with paltry stats.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Yes. It's obvious Bosh is far superior to both on offense. Anyone debating this is simply in denial of the obvious. But on the flip side, you degrading Rodman by throwing up stats isn't fair to him because he's never been a stats guy. He is the type of guy who can have a huge impact in the game with paltry stats.
It's funny because literally nobody is saying that Bosh is worse than Grant/Rodman offensively.

[ClipperRevival]

Nice try, but LeBron averages more assists per 36 on lower usage rate in the playoffs. It's pretty clear who is the less selfish player.

Actually, I never said Bosh is worse offensively than Rodman.

But Bosh would still be playing 3rd wheel behind Jordan/Pippen for obvious reasons. Horace Grant/Rodman defense/rebounding >>>> Bosh. Bosh won't be able to put up 18 ppg in the playoffs as a 3rd option on the bulls. He'd be putting up about the same as he was on the Heat (11-14 ppg) which is similar to Horace Grant.

And please tell me how Bosh is going to play against big men like Ewing, Mourning, Malone, Olajuwon (potentially), etc.

I mean you constantly tell me this era is weak, and then you turn around to say that Bosh would have better numbers in the 90s? :biggums:

But Rodman/Grant almost never played center. Cartwright and Longley did. So they never had to be the main rim protector that Bosh was. So Bosh would not have had to play center either if he were on the Bulls. Bosh had to play out of position in Miami and sacrificed so much of his game.

[ClipperRevival]

It's funny because literally nobody is saying that Bosh is worse than Grant/Rodman offensively.

But you keep bringing up his 2013 playoff numbers and his 13 ppg.

[J Shuttlesworth]

But you keep bringing up his 2013 playoff numbers and his 13 ppg.
Well offense is a huge part of what defines a player. My point is that if Heat had Horace Grant putting up 11 ppg instead of Bosh's 13 or 14, they would still be better as a team because of his defense and rebounding.

[3ball]

Nice try, but LeBron averages more assists per 36 on lower usage rate in the playoffs. It's pretty clear who is the less selfish player.


Thru age 30 in the playoffs, they both average exactly 8.4 assists per 100-possessions - per-100 possession stats account for all differences in pace and playing time.

MJ still has the assist edge in the Finals.. So MJ got the same assists in the playoffs and more in the Finals.

But most importantly - usage - Jordan has a 25% higher scoring burden in the playoffs (35 PPG to 28 PPG), and 50% higher in the Finals (36 PPG to 24 PPG), yet he STILL gets the same or greater assists with less turnovers - this is proof of his vastly superior skill.





Bosh would be putting up about the same as he was on the Heat (11-14 ppg) which is similar to Horace Grant.


Except Bosh did much better than 11-14 PPG on the Heat:

............................ RS PPG.. Playoff PPG

BOSH .2011-2014:..... 17.3..... 14.9
GRANT 1991-1993:.... 13.4..... 11.7


No need to make stuff up.
.

[97 bulls]

Well offense is a huge part of what defines a player. My point is that if Heat had Horace Grant putting up 11 ppg instead of Bosh's 13 or 14, they would still be better as a team because of his defense and rebounding.
Especially a player like Bosh whose mainly known for his offense.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Thru age 30 in the playoffs, they both average exactly 8.4 assists per 100-possessions - per-100 possession stats account for all differences in pace and playing time.

MJ still has the assist edge in the Finals.. So MJ got the same assists in the playoffs and more in the Finals.

But most importantly - usage - Jordan has a 25% higher scoring burden in the playoffs (35 PPG to 28 PPG), and 50% higher in the Finals (36 PPG to 24 PPG), yet he STILL gets the same or greater assists with less turnovers - this is proof of his vastly superior skill.



Except Bosh did much better than 11-14 PPG on the Heat:

..... RS PPG.. Playoff PPG

Bosh:. 17.3..... 14.9
Grant: 13.4..... 11.7


No need to make stuff up.
14.9 ppg in the playoffs, which is really what this whole thread is about right?

I'll take 11.7 ppg with better rebounding/defense any day.

Plus Horace Grant put up 16 ppg in the playoffs in 94, and put up 15/10 on the Magic. Let's not act like he's offensively inept.

[ClipperRevival]

Well offense is a huge part of what defines a player. My point is that if Heat had Horace Grant putting up 11 ppg instead of Bosh's 13 or 14, they would still be better as a team because of his defense and rebounding.

That's a very general statement. As I said above, Grant/Rodman didn't have to play C but Bosh did. He had to play out of position and had to focus a lot of his energy on the D end. So if you are going to put Bosh with the Bulls, he would be playing his natural position. On the flip side, how would Grant handle being the primary rim protector with Miami?

[97 bulls]

I think another thing must be acknowledged about Rodmans playoff stats in 97 and 98. In 97, he was hurt and even missed the last 13 games of the regular season.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1997-03-27/sports/9703270212_1_berto-center-head-butting-referee-ted-bernhardt-bulls

In 98, he still led the playoffs in total rebound percentage and offensive rebound percentage. As well as still being a strong lowpost defender. Which tells tgat his rebounding number were low because there weren't very many shots going up.

[3ball]

Let's not act like Horace was inept offensively.


Horace Grant WAS inept offensively - he had ZERO ability to create his own shot.. He was nothing more than a play-finisher.

Bosh is the far better offensive player - again, you're posting stuff in a forum when we can all see with our own two eyes how much better Bosh was.. The stats back this up - Bosh is career 19/9 compared to 11/8, but keep grasping at straws.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Horace Grant WAS inept offensively - he had ZERO ability to create his own shot.. He was nothing more than a play-finisher.

Bosh is the far better offensive player - again, you're posting stuff in a forum when we can all see with our own two eyes how much better Bosh was.. The stats back this up - Bosh is career 19/9 compared to 11/8, but keep grasping at straws.
You keep bringing up the offense when I've already acknowledged Bosh is a better scorer.

Bosh as a #1 option on a team > Grant

but Horace Grant could score with good play makers around him whether it was MJ, or Penny. LeBron would be able to get him similar looks, and probably about the same PPG as he was getting. Bosh is another guy who didn't create his own shot much. Most of his looks were mid-range jumpers that were created by LeBron or Wade. Doesn't make him inept.

[ClipperRevival]

Horace Grant WAS inept offensively - he had ZERO ability to create his own shot.. He was nothing more than a play-finisher.

Bosh is the far better offensive player - again, you're posting stuff in a forum when we can all see with our own two eyes how much better Bosh was.. The stats back this up - Bosh is career 19/9 compared to 11/8, but keep grasping at straws.

Yeah. There are different levels to star players. Bosh was putting up 20-24 ppg as "the man" prior to going to Miami. He was a star in his own right. His offensive game was several levels above Grant, who got most of his shots off the break, put backs and slashing, etc. The type of points you get by just being in the game and around the basket. To focus on that one playoff series to say they were similiar is pretty weak. Bosh was a far superior player over Grant.

[97 bulls]

Horace Grant WAS inept offensively - he had ZERO ability to create his own shot.. He was nothing more than a play-finisher.

Bosh is the far better offensive player - again, you're posting stuff in a forum when we can all see with our own two eyes how much better Bosh was.. The stats back this up - Bosh is career 19/9 compared to 11/8, but keep grasping at straws.
But the stats dont indicate impact. And comparing their career stats is disengenuine because prime Grant was a 15/11 guy. And Bosh is still in his prime.

I find it funny how you flip thing around. When discussing Rodman, you want to quickly admonish that this isnt Pistons Rodman. But with Grant, you want to include when he wasn't in his prime. The Bulls had Grant in his prime.

[3ball]

I think another thing must be acknowledged about Rodmans playoff stats in 97 and 98. In 97, he was hurt and even missed the last 13 games of the regular season.

In 98... tells tgat his rebounding number were low because there weren't very many shots going up.


He played every single game of the 1997 playoffs and put up 3/8.. Bosh never played this bad.

Rodman also put up 3/8 in the 1998 Finals - a complete MIA job - Bosh has never played this bad either.. Interestingly, Pippen also disappeared in the 1998 Finals, averaging 15 PPG on 41% FG - Pip and Rodman's disappearance is what brought the GOAT clutch out of MJ.

[SouBeachTalents]

He played every single game of the 1997 playoffs and put up 3/8.. Bosh never played this bad.

Rodman also put up 3/8 in the 1998 Finals - a complete MIA job - Bosh has never played this bad either.. Interestingly, Pippen also disappeared in the 1998 Finals, averaging 15 PPG on 41% FG - Pip and Rodman's disappearance is what brought the GOAT clutch out of MJ.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all

Almost disappeared into a Finals MVP

[3ball]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all

Almost disappeared into a Finals MVP
grasping at straws - two clearly "devil's advocate" articles out of literally thousands written BEFORE Pippen finished the final 2 games with 8 and 6 points, while Jordan finished with the greatest performance and clutch play we've ever seen.. :rolleyes:

[97 bulls]

He played every single game of the 1997 playoffs and put up 3/8.. Bosh never played this bad.

Rodman also put up 3/8 in the 1998 Finals - a complete MIA job - Bosh has never played this bad either.. Interestingly, Pippen also disappeared in the 1998 Finals, averaging 15 PPG on 41% FG - Pip and Rodman's disappearance is what brought the GOAT clutch out of MJ.
Lol..dude. you can't be this dumb. Did you not read the part where I said he was hurt? And that in 98, he led the PLAYOFFS in total rebound percentage as well as offensive rebound percentage.

Again, you cant have it both ways. You're a big proponent of the Jordan was rusty argument for 95. Well he played every game of the playoffs, why are you giving him a pass?

[97 bulls]

grasping at straws - two clearly "devil's advocate" articles out of literally thousands written BEFORE Pippen finished the final 2 games with 8 and 6 points, while Jordan finished with the greatest performance and clutch play we've ever seen.. :rolleyes:
Then why keep posting his championship stats without context? He was having a great even legendary championship before he got hurt.

[ClipperRevival]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all

Almost disappeared into a Finals MVP

Almost my ass. MJ was clearly their best player. When a guy is that good, people always want to find any reason to give the award to someone else. Mj averaged 33 ppg while Pippen averaged 15 ppg. Mj carried the burden once again at age 34 going on 35. And with his sequence of the last mi ute of game 6, it was a wrap.

[3ball]

prime Grant


............................ RS PPG.. Playoff PPG

BOSH .2011-2014:..... 17.3..... 14.9
GRANT 1991-1993:.... 13.4..... 11.7


That's WITH Lebron holding Bosh's stats down - but forget the stats - the eye test couldn't be more obvious that Horace Grant was inept offensively and had ZERO ability to create his own shot.

why don't you point me to some great Horace Grant moves... :rolleyes:.. He was nothing more than a play-finisher.
.

[3ball]

Let's take a PLAYER'S opinion on who had the most help - this was Kobe recently:

"Lebron doesn't have to prove anything (the question was whether Lebron can win without 2 superstars)... I had Shaq + Pau... Mj had Pip... Magic had Worthy + Kareem etc AND we all had great teammates"

Kobe didn't say shit guys that can't create their own offense like Grant and 34-year old Rodman - unlike EVERYONE ELSE, MJ only had 1 star helping him on offense - this is common knowledge fact.

[97 bulls]

Let's take a PLAYER'S opinion on who had the most help - this was Kobe recently:

"Lebron doesn't have to prove anything (the question was whether Lebron can win without 2 superstars)... I had Shaq + Pau... Mj had Pip... Magic had Worthy + Kareem etc AND we all had great teammates"

Kobe didn't say shit guys that can't create their own offense like Grant and 34-year old Rodman - unlike EVERYONE ELSE, MJ only had 1 star helping him on offense - this is common knowledge fact.
Kukoc avg 13/14 ppg. And he could run the offense and create his own shot.

[97 bulls]

............................ RS PPG.. Playoff PPG

BOSH .2011-2014:..... 17.3..... 14.9
GRANT 1991-1993:.... 13.4..... 11.7


That's WITH Lebron holding Bosh's stats down - but forget the stats - the eye test couldn't be more obvious that Horace Grant was inept offensively and had ZERO ability to create his own shot.

why don't you point me to some great Horace Grant moves... :rolleyes:.. He was nothing more than a play-finisher.
.
Again. Whose arguing that Grant was even as good as Bosh offensively?

[3ball]

Kukoc avg 13/14 ppg. And he could run the offense and create his own shot.


A lesser version of Lamar Odom.. :confusedshrug:

The funny thing is that the more Lebron fans say he has no help, than that's more reason he needs to put up MJ numbers.

But other than that one-off anomaly against Orlando, he's never produced at an MJ level in the playoffs, which means he either doesn't know he needs to because he's not that bright, or he isn't capable of doing it due to insufficient repertoire and aggressiveness.

I think it's a little bit of everything..

[ILLsmak]

I'd take Grant over Bosh, tbh.

Better in the post, a good midrange player (not prone to hide out beyond the arc), and a greater defender.

Yeah... well depends on what you want. On a good team gimme Grant, but on a team that needs a star, gimme Bosh.

-Smak

[3ball]

Yeah... well depends on what you want. On a good team gimme Grant, but on a team that needs a star, gimme Bosh.

-Smak
Ha, you guys are hilarious..

The bolded is easy to say after MJ has made the team 3-peat champions with GOAT 35/7/7 playoff averages and 36/7/8 Finals averages.

Horace says it himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m43s

On a bad team, he'd have been his brother HARVEY Grant.. Exactly.. Who the **** is that
.

[fourkicks44]

Does this thread confirm that Jordan had a much better supporting cast than LeBron?

Yes! You are right.

Better team, better supporting cast, better superstar, better everything. There is nothing about Jordan and his Bulls teams that is not better than Lebron and anything he has done. Great observation, I will click on your rep bar for that post.

[97 bulls]

Almost my ass. MJ was clearly their best player. When a guy is that good, people always want to find any reason to give the award to someone else. Mj averaged 33 ppg while Pippen averaged 15 ppg. Mj carried the burden once again at age 34 going on 35. And with his sequence of the last mi ute of game 6, it was a wrap.
Did you even read the articles? Those were written after game four when Pippen was.clearly their most impactful player.

[ShawkFactory]

Ha, you guys are hilarious..

The bolded is easy to say after MJ has made the team 3-peat champions with GOAT 35/7/7 playoff averages and 36/7/8 Finals averages.

Horace says it himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m43s

On a bad team, he'd have been his brother HARVEY Grant.. Exactly.. Who the **** is that
.
You literally just agreed with him..

[97 bulls]

A lesser version of Lamar Odom.. :confusedshrug:

The funny thing is that the more Lebron fans say he has no help, than that's more reason he needs to put up MJ numbers.

But other than that one-off anomaly against Orlando, he's never produced at an MJ level in the playoffs, which means he either doesn't know he needs to because he's not that bright, or he isn't capable of doing it due to insufficient repertoire and aggressiveness.

I think it's a little bit of everything..
He was a guy that could create his own shot. You said the Bulls only had Jordan and Pippen.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lol at Flower Forward Bosh over Grant..

Rodman
Grant
Bosh

[andgar923]

MJ would've MADE Bosh into a HOF player. Bosh already showed that he's an all star/franchise player on his own. Pair him up with MJ and he becomes a HOF player.

How?

MJ is more of a PG than Bron, he'd set him up for easy shots in the paint instead of dribbling, dribbling, dribbling and kicking to a Bosh sitting at the 3pt line. Imagine a pick and roll with MJ and Bosh in the paint? deadlier than most in history.

Bron also makes it more difficult for Bosh to operate because he doesn't move as well off the ball. Bosh is a good passer, get him in situations where he's a passer and he'd pass dimes to MJ, all of this opens up the floor for him.

Bosh's lack of or perceived mental toughness wouldn't be the case under MJ. MJ has proven that he can change people's mentality and toughen them up. Bosh wouldn't be as weak as some perceive him to be. Not saying he'd turn into Charles Oakley, but Grant wasn't a tough guy, yet he was a tough defender with a strong mentality... all thanks to MJ.

So give Bosh to MJ and watch him become a better player than both Grant and Rodman.

[jayfan]

1. Prime Rodman

2. Bosh

3. Old Rodman






























4. Grant

[KOBE143]

Bosh, Grant and Rodman were all superstars level.. They are all tier 1 PF level where Duncan, KG, Malone and Dirk belongs.. Compare them to any Kobe PF teammates current or past where all are tier 3 shit level Bosh, Grant and Rodman are all far better.. All of them can carry you win multiple titles easily.. If you combine all their total rings that would be 11, this is like the equivalent of Bill Russell's 11 rings..

So to answer OP.. None of them are better than each other.. Bosh, Rodman and Grant are all equally great players.. Great players that can carry anyone to multiple titles..