Today's player shoots free throws 17% more often on 2-point shots

[3ball]

Today's player shoots free throws 17% more often on 2-point shots than players from 1985... Said another way, today's player shoots 5 more FTA's per 100 two-point shot attempts.

This is huge for wing players - we all know wing players are the best-equipped to take the most advantage of today's spacing and hands-off defensive rules.. But wing players are ALSO the best-equipped to take advantage of the higher frequency of FT's awarded.. Consequently, their TS% becomes inflated (compared to previous eras), since higher FT frequency MATHEMATICALLY INCREASES TS%.


........................2PA per game...... FTA per game.. Shots per FTA*

2015 Harden..............10.2...................11.4... ............ 0.89
2015 Lebron...............13.6.....................7.7. ............. 1.77
2015 Westbrook..........17.7.....................9.7... ........... 1.82
2014 Durant...............11.4.....................6.3. ............. 1.81

1988 MJ.....................23.7...................10.5 ............. 2.26

* two-point shot attempts


This is the reason Wade shot 66% TS against Thibbs defense and Durant/Lebron both shot 65% TS against the Spurs - it's not just that shots aren't contested as well because of today's spacing and hands-off defensive rules, but it's the FT's too - FT's are awarded at a much higher frequency.

Accordingly, considering MJ didn't benefit from spacing, soft defensive rules, OR a higher FT frequency, it's no surprise that MJ never shot 65% TS against ANY TEAM (even the bad ones).

Watch this year's playoffs - you'll see Harden or some stiff that can't hold a candle to MJ shoot 65% TS against a good team, which is better than MJ ever did against ANY team.
.

[navy]

3ball my dude. You slippin.

[tpols]

Magic and bird used to joke about Michael jordan being the refs golden boy.. you are on a never ending cycle of nostalgias from older times always saying their generation was better than the generations after it.please stfu

[warriorfan]

manufactured stars

[Bernkastel]

4 of today's players vs 1 player from back then? C'mon, man.

[Rose'sACL]

shots per FTA is a very flawed stat. this stat is treating a player like curry and lebron as same when their play style is way different.
are you saying that lebron and curry deserve the same amount of Free Throws if they both take the same number of shots?

[3ball]

are you saying that lebron and curry deserve the same amount of Free Throws if they both take the same number of shots?


I'm just talking about the FT frequency on TWO POINT SHOTS... because 2-pointers have always been, and WILL always be where all the FT's are generated - players rarely get fouled on 3-point shots.

and today's players shoot free throws 17% more of the time on 2-pointers than the in 1985.

the higher FT frequency mathematically boosts TS% - it is what it is - it's facts - higher FT frequency boosts TS% (especially for wing players that can take best advantage of the rules).
.

[Rose'sACL]

I'm just talking about the FT frequency on TWO POINT SHOTS... because 2-pointers have always been, and WILL always be where all the FT's are generated - players rarely get fouled on 3-point shots.

and today's players shoot free throws 17% more of the time on 2-pointers than the in 1985.

the higher FT frequency mathematically boosts TS% - it is what it is - it's facts - higher FT frequency boosts TS% (especially for wing players that can take best advantage of the rules).
.
but those shots don't count so wtf are you talking about? the only way to come to that conclusion is through player tracking which most teams do and that is what advanced analysis is right now. player tracking can give you great insight as it generates a pattern on how a player scores. how many of those points in paint were with a player near him or how many points were through drives to the rim or how many points were through another player feeding you lobs near the basket like mozgov or jordan do.

judging Free Throw attempts from number of shots taken is nearly fully flawed as those shots are just not counted. lebron can go 2-5 from field and the other team can keep fouling him trying to stop him from driving to the rim everytime but if he gets 14 free throws, stats won't show that he attempted 12 shots instead of 5.

[KobesFinger]

>1985
>Uses 88 Jordan

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I guess Jordan didn't shoot a 65% TS% because he wasn't a good enough shooter. :confusedshrug:

[iamgine]

They shoot more FT and get better TS% because they get to the rim more, unlike Jordan who like to pull up jumper and can't shoot threes.

[sd3035]

In other words, teams play defense these days

[ralph_i_el]

you've isolated it to 2-point shots.....players today take more 3's and less midrange shots (you know, the 2 point shots that don't usually draw fouls)

stands to reason that if players today are trying to shoot 3's and shots at the rim, more 2 point shots will have fouls called on them....

[24-Inch_Chrome]

you've isolated it to 2-point shots.....players today take more 3's and less midrange shots (you know, the 2 point shots that don't usually draw fouls)

stands to reason that if players today are trying to shoot 3's and shots at the rim, more 2 point shots will have fouls called on them....

That's logic though. We all know that it's beyond 3ball.

[Hey Yo]

In other words, teams play defense these days
eot

[DonDadda59]

Jordan FTr (Free throws/FG attempts): .358 career

Kobe FTr: .388 career

Durant FTr: .435 career

LeBron FTr: .429 career

Harden FTr: .547 career

Jordan's career PPG getting the James Harden treatment: 33.4

[navy]

This shit makes no sense. Arent you guys always telling us how Jordan ran off screens and shot primarily off the ball jumpshots like Reggie Miller and Ray Allen?

The fvck should he be getting freethrows for?

[Hey Yo]

In MJ's final regular season with Chicago, he took 721 FTA. The most he took since the 88-89 season.

Stern looked at that season as one last chance to cash in before MJ quit again

[Marchesk]

This shit makes no sense. Are you guys always telling us how Jordan ran off screens and shot primarily off the ball jumpshots like Reggie Miller and Ray Allen?

The fvck should he be getting freethrows for?

It won't have been for flopping. Maybe dunking on everyone.

[DonDadda59]

In MJ's final regular season with Chicago, he took 721 FTA. The most he took since the 88-89 season.

Stern looked at that season as one last chance to cash in before MJ quit again

Jordan '98 FTr: .381 (1.5 3s/gm)

LeBron '14 FTr: .432 (4 3s/gm)

Durant '14 FTr: .477 (6.1 3s/gm)

Harden '14 FTr: .552 (6.6 3s/gm)

Goddamn Stern :mad:

[3ball]

Jordan '98 FTr: .381 (1.5 3s/gm)

LeBron '14 FTr: .432 (4 3s/gm)

Durant '14 FTr: .477 (6.1 3s/gm)

Harden '14 FTr: .552 (6.6 3s/gm)

Goddamn Stern :mad:


Previous eras clearly went to the FT line a lower percentage of the time than today's softly-called game - so what do we make of this data?

It looks like we should increase MJ's career 33.4 PPG playoff average if he were playing today, since he'd be going to the line so much more, just like all the players listed above.. :confusedshrug:
.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

This shit makes no sense. Arent you guys always telling us how Jordan ran off screens and shot primarily off the ball jumpshots like Reggie Miller and Ray Allen?

The fvck should he be getting freethrows for?

I like how neither of them addressed this. :oldlol:

[Ass Dan]

Today's player shoots free throws 17% more often on 2-point shots than players from 1985... Said another way, today's player shoots 5 more FTA's per 100 two-point shot attempts.

This is huge for wing players - we all know wing players are the best-equipped to take the most advantage of today's spacing and hands-off defensive rules.. But wing players are ALSO the best-equipped to take advantage of the higher frequency of FT's awarded.. Consequently, their TS% becomes inflated (compared to previous eras), since higher FT frequency MATHEMATICALLY INCREASES TS%.


........................2PA per game...... FTA per game.. Shots per FTA*

2015 Harden..............10.2...................11.4... ............ 0.89
2015 Lebron...............13.6.....................7.7. ............. 1.77
2015 Westbrook..........17.7.....................9.7... ........... 1.82
2014 Durant...............11.4.....................6.3. ............. 1.81

1988 MJ.....................23.7...................10.5 ............. 2.26

* two-point shot attempts


This is the reason Wade shot 66% TS against Thibbs defense and Durant/Lebron both shot 65% TS against the Spurs - it's not just that shots aren't contested as well because of today's spacing and hands-off defensive rules, but it's the FT's too - FT's are awarded at a much higher frequency.

Accordingly, considering MJ didn't benefit from spacing, soft defensive rules, OR a higher FT frequency, it's no surprise that MJ never shot 65% TS against ANY TEAM (even the bad ones).

Watch this year's playoffs - you'll see Harden or some stiff that can't hold a candle to MJ shoot 65% TS against a good team, which is better than MJ ever did against ANY team.
.

the game is based on 3 point shooting and rim twos.

What do you think is gonna happen?

Use your head Euroleague:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[kshutts1]

Previous eras clearly went to the FT line a lower percentage of the time than today's softly-called game - so what do we make of this data?

It looks like we should increase MJ's career 33.4 PPG playoff average if he were playing today, since he'd be going to the line so much more, just like all the players listed above.. :confusedshrug:
.
How many more fouls would Jordan have accumulated due to his highly physical d? How many less All D teams? How many less minutes played, and thus less points, and less wins?

So if Jordan played today, in the soft era where fouls were called more often, he'd foul out from his physical D and his team would never win a title. Dat legacy.

[3ball]

the game is based on 3 point shooting and rim twos.

What do you think is gonna happen?

Use your head Euroleague:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:


Exactly - but it wasn't in MJ's day because the 3-point shot was barely used.

So if MJ played today where everyone is shooting 3's and spreading the floor for him, he wouldn't have to shoot mid-range..

Instead, he'd get "rim twos (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353826)" exclusively just like today's player does, and so he'd get more FT's, just like today's player does.

Use your head Ass.. :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[Prometheus]

Doesn't it suck that Jordan has been retired for more than a decade, and literally NONE of your conjecture will ever matter, in any way whatsoever?

[3ball]

Doesn't it suck that Jordan has been retired for more than a decade, and literally NONE of your conjecture will ever matter, in any way whatsoever?
It's not conjecture - it's facts - MJ would shoot more FT's today, because players today shoot more FT's and get fouls called on a higher proportion of plays/shots.. period.. the numbers are what they are.

[3ball]

This shit makes no sense. Arent you guys always telling us how Jordan ran off screens and shot primarily off the ball jumpshots like Reggie Miller and Ray Allen?

The fvck should he be getting freethrows for?




I like how neither of them addressed this. :oldlol:


It's easy to address.

You shouldn't think of MJ as some ordinary 25 PPG scorer... He was a 35-36 PPG (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10870767&postcount=162) scorer.

So he had plenty of room in his PPG average to fit in 6-8 PPG of JJ Redick catch-and-shoot, another 6-8 PPG of athletic catch-and-slash (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10862372&postcount=18), another 6-8 PPG on low post scoring (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10861649&postcount=3), and another 6-8 on point guard (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games) or primary ballhandler-type (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10699081&postcount=10) plays.

Btw, Korver, Dirk, JJ Redick and Klay Thompson lead the league (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/catchshoot/?sort=PTS&dir=1) in catch-and-shoot PPG, and they're all at about 8.0 PPG... If MJ played today, he would be right there among these league leaders at catch-and-shoot.. His JJ Redick catch-and-shoot game and Cedric Ceballos catch-and-slash game complimented other aspects of his game to make him the most unpredictable, unstoppable player of all time.

[DonDadda59]

This shit makes no sense. Arent you guys always telling us how Jordan ran off screens and shot primarily off the ball jumpshots like Reggie Miller and Ray Allen?

The fvck should he be getting freethrows for?

Jordan was great off the ball, but he was at his best attacking the rim and working out of the post. This isn't some big revelation.



the game is based on 3 point shooting and rim twos.

What do you think is gonna happen?

Almost 40% of James Harden's shot attempts are 3s, but look at the ridiculous amounts of FTs he gets. For comparison's sake, look at D-Whistle. Played like a young Jordan- attacking the rim, working from the mid range, never a big 3-point shooter.

Jordan 3 attempts per game career: 1.7
Wade 3 attempts per game career:1.7

Jordan career FTr: .358
Wade career FTr:.459


:confusedshrug:

[chips93]

^^^ Jordan shot way more midrange jumpers than wade has in his career.


They shoot more FT and get better TS% because they get to the rim more, unlike Jordan who like to pull up jumper and can't shoot threes.

this

players shoot less mid range jumpers than ever, so more of their two point FGA come at the rim, where you are more likely to draw a foul.

[Akhenaten]

[i]This is the reason Wade shot 66% TS against Thibbs defense

You're not talking about that 09-10 1st round series vs the Celtics are you? Cause dude only made 5.4 out of 8 attempts (67%), his high TS% was from shooting 56% from the field and 41% from 3, if anything his poor FT shooting brought his TS% (I hate that stupid facking term by the way "true", goofball nerd shit) down.

[3ball]

^^^ Jordan shot way more midrange jumpers than wade has in his career.


So why did Jordan amass more dunks (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399) each season than Wade did?

Are you saying Jordan didn't attack the rim as much as wade, harden, lebron, or kobe?

It's a fact that the highest-dunking #1 option wing players of all time got 150 dunks per season in their prime - these guys would be MJ, Dr. J, Dominique, Drexler, Lebron, Durant and Wade - so MJ is in this group of elite rim attackers, and everyone knows that he HEADS this list.





players shoot less mid range jumpers than ever, so more of their two point FGA come at the rim, where you are more likely to draw a foul.


so does that mean today's game is easier, since today's players get to finish at the rim exclusively and don't have to take mid-range shots?

or do you think previous eras simply CHOSE to take mid-range jumpers over finishing at the rim?
.

[3ball]

So let me get this straight - you guys are saying that MJ didn't attack the rim as much as today's player, and that's why he didn't get as many FT's as today's player?

Is that it?

I'm still trying to figure out why MJ shot free throws on a significantly lower proportion of his shots.

[DonDadda59]

^^^ Jordan shot way more midrange jumpers than wade has in his career.


90% of Wade's shots throughout his career have come within the 3 point line.

93% of Jordan's shots throughout his career have come within the 3 point line.

Data (http://hoops-nation.com/community/topic/88605-finally-a-peak-michael-jordan-shot-chart/) from 126 games that Jordan played from 89-92.

46% of Jordan's shots were inside the paint.

Data (http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Dwyane%20Wade) from 102 games Wade played from 06-'08.

43% of Wade's shots were inside the paint.

Jordan's FTr during that stretch: .349

Wade's FTr during that stretch: .528

:confusedshrug:

[Akhenaten]

90% of Wade's shots throughout his career have come within the 3 point line.

93% of Jordan's shots throughout his career have come within the 3 point line.

Data (http://hoops-nation.com/community/topic/88605-finally-a-peak-michael-jordan-shot-chart/) from 126 games that Jordan played from 89-92.

46% of Jordan's shots were inside the paint.

Data (http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Dwyane%20Wade) from 102 games Wade played from 06-'08.

43% of Wade's shots were inside the paint.

Jordan's FTr during that stretch: .349

Wade's FTr during that stretch: .528

:confusedshrug:

What percentage of those paint shots are from transition/fast break opportunities?

[navy]

So let me get this straight - you guys are saying that MJ didn't attack the rim as much as today's player, and that's why he didn't get as many FT's as today's player?

Is that it?

I'm still trying to figure out why MJ shot free throws on a significantly lower proportion of his shots.
Nobody said that. You were the one who pointed out how many of his field goals were ray allen or reggie miller like and this prone to not getting fouls.

If Jordan has the added field goals attempts not drawn to fouls it only makes logical sense that his ft% would be lower and total free throw attempts to be similar because he takes way more shots that wont draw fouls.

What do you get with more field goal attempts and the same amount of free throws? Lower ftr%.

Dumb thread with not fully thought out agenda.

[Akhenaten]

Nobody said that. You were the one who pointed out how many of his field goals were ray allen or reggie miller like and this prone to not getting fouls.

If Jordan has the added field goals attempts not drawn to fouls it only makes logical sense that his ft% would be lower and total free throw attempts to be similar because he takes way more shots that wont draw fouls.

What do you get with more field goal attempts and the same amount of free throws? Lower ftr%.

Dumb thread with not fully thought out agenda.

Yeah, he didn't consider volume, Jordan attempted a lot more shots than guys like Wade and Lebron. So if ofr example Wade and Jordan may both have 300 FG's in the paint but Wade may have 200 from midrange while Jordan will have 400 from midrange so as you said this will skew the percentages.

Would be interesting to isolate what percentage of their attempts strictly in the in the paint and at the rim resulted in FT's. Of course we would also have to know what percentage of those at rim/paint shots are In the half court as opposed to in transition/fast break as fouls obviously occur much more frequently in the half court than in transition.

Jordan again will have a MUCH higher volume and percentage of his attempts at the rim/paint be in transition than Wade (maybe not Lebron, well volume yes, not sure about percentage).

One common trait amongst I notice amongst the overly nostalgic posters is that they are so eager to confirm their preconceived beliefs that they hastily latch on to any FACE value fact to validate their biases.

These guys never seem to take any time and care in really thinking through the data they are observing smh

[Hey Yo]

How many more fouls would Jordan have accumulated due to his highly physical d? How many less All D teams? How many less minutes played, and thus less points, and less wins?

So if Jordan played today, in the soft era where fouls were called more often, he'd foul out from his physical D and his team would never win a title. Dat legacy.
Wouldn't have mattered. The league would still make sure to take care of MJ. His breakout season was in 1988. That year he was called for 3.3 PF's a game. After that year his PF avg. went down every single full season except the 1993 and 96 seasons when it stayed the same at 2.4 PF per game.

Stern made sure MJ stayed on the floor and out of foul trouble.

[kshutts1]

Wouldn't have mattered. The league would still make sure to take care of MJ. His breakout season was in 1988. That year he was called for 3.3 PF's a game. After that year his PF avg. went down every single full season except the 1993 and 96 seasons when it stayed the same at 2.4 PF per game.

Stern made sure MJ stayed on the floor and out of foul trouble.
But I thought all reffing was now fair? They say there is no such thing as superstar treatment :rolleyes:

[Rose'sACL]

OP is yet to explain how field goal attempts directly tell us how many free throws a player should get.
by the FTr logic, curry and lebron should get same amount of free throws if they attempt same number of shots which just shows how flawed that thing is.

[Hey Yo]

Jordan '98 FTr: .381 (1.5 3s/gm)

LeBron '14 FTr: .432 (4 3s/gm)

Durant '14 FTr: .477 (6.1 3s/gm)

Harden '14 FTr: .552 (6.6 3s/gm)

Goddamn Stern :mad:
At age 34, MJ was doing much less driving to the rim and settling for many more jumpers. Yet he took the most amount of FTA since the 88-89 season.

Stern jumping up and down on his dying cash cow trying to get every penny he could.

[3ball]

If Jordan has the added field goals attempts not drawn to fouls it only makes logical sense that his ft% would be lower and total free throw attempts to be similar because he takes way more shots that wont draw fouls.


You don't think MJ took as many at-rim shots as wade or harden?

So why did they call him "Air" Jordan?.. Why didn't they call him "mid-range" Jordan?.. Why does he have posters over every big name player (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11013142&postcount=2) of his era, including every all-time great center, and mostly in the half-court?... Why don't Wade, Harden and Lebron posterize all the big name players or have as many posters as MJ?

And we have the ACTUAL dunk stats for MJ from old Philadelpia 76'er Media Guides - in 1988, MJ had 158 dunks:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.VTAxYiFVikp


So that's a documented fact - MJ got more dunks in 1988 than any wing player today has ever gotten in one season.. And in 1988, the league as a whole dunked once every 28 shot attempts, compared to once every 22 shot attempts today (it's easier to dunk today):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10487840&postcount=58
.

[dubeta]

Jordan was NOT an off-ball player :facepalm

[ralph_i_el]

I'm still trying to figure out why MJ shot free throws on a significantly lower proportion of his shots.

Then you're ****ing retarded.

[Smoke117]

Magic and bird used to joke about Michael jordan being the refs golden boy.. you are on a never ending cycle of nostalgias from older times always saying their generation was better than the generations after it.please stfu

Which is hilarious considering Magic has the most bullshit calls of any player ever. You couldn't breathe on him without having a foul called on you.

[navy]

You don't think MJ took as many at-rim shots as wade or harden?


Stop being dumb. I never said he didnt take as many shots at the rim. I said he took those shots and as you claimed ALSO took alot of Ray Allen and Reggie Miller shots that arent likely to get fts. That's why despite having the same ft attempts he has a lower ftr%.

Using your logic of course.

[DonDadda59]

Jordan was NOT an off-ball player :facepalm

Explain this:



Bulls Championship Years APG

'91: 27 APG (95.6 Pace)
'92: 27.8 APG (94.4 Pace)
'93: 26 APG (92.5 Pace)
'96: 24.8 APG (91.1 Pace)
'97: 26.1 APG (90 Pace)
'98: 23.8 APG (89 Pace)

Spurs '14: 25.2 APG (led the league) Pace of 95.


How were the Bulls getting so many assists as a team? :confusedshrug:


Which is hilarious considering Magic has the most bullshit calls of any player ever. You couldn't breathe on him without having a foul called on you.

:applause:

Magic career FTr: .489

Although his FTr is skewed because he was never a volume scorer like the other guys we've been discussing. Only took 13 FGA for his career.


Stop being dumb. I never said he didnt take as many shots at the rim. I said he took those shots and as you claimed ALSO took alot of Ray Allen and Reggie Miller shots that arent likely to get fts. That's why despite having the same ft attempts he has a lower ftr%.

Using your logic of course.

Reggie Miller career FTr: .402

[ralph_i_el]

Explain this:



Bulls Championship Years APG

'91: 27 APG (95.6 Pace)
'92: 27.8 APG (94.4 Pace)
'93: 26 APG (92.5 Pace)
'96: 24.8 APG (91.1 Pace)
'97: 26.1 APG (90 Pace)
'98: 23.8 APG (89 Pace)

Spurs '14: 25.2 APG (led the league) Pace of 95.


How were the Bulls getting so many assists as a team? :confusedshrug:



:applause:

Magic career FTr: .489

Although his FTr is skewed because he was never a volume scorer like the other guys we've been discussing. Only took 13 FGA for his career.



Reggie Miller career FTr: .402

people who are knock down free throw shooters get the ball inbounded to them at the end of games to shoot free throws when the other team fouls.

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO @ all these clowns trying to find any angle to deny the clear evidence that Jordan shot far fewer FT's than players today do proportionately.

[navy]

LMAO @ all these clowns trying to find any angle to deny the clear evidence that Jordan shot far fewer FT's than players today do proportionately.
Except he didnt. His ft attempts are the same or higher. He just shoots way more field goals than anyone else today.

[3ball]

Except he didnt. His ft attempts are the same or higher. He just shoots way more field goals than anyone else today.


Jordan FTr (Free throws/FG attempts): .358 career

Kobe FTr: .388 career

Durant FTr: .435 career

LeBron FTr: .429 career

Harden FTr: .547 career

[3ball]

90% of Wade's shots throughout his career have come within the 3 point line.

93% of Jordan's shots throughout his career have come within the 3 point line.

Data (http://hoops-nation.com/community/topic/88605-finally-a-peak-michael-jordan-shot-chart/) from 126 games that Jordan played from 89-92.

46% of Jordan's shots were inside the paint.

Data (http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Dwyane%20Wade) from 102 games Wade played from 06-'08.

43% of Wade's shots were inside the paint.

Jordan's FTr during that stretch: .349

Wade's FTr during that stretch: .528

:confusedshrug:


this is some of the most highly concentrated, potent ether i've ever come across.. 98.9% ether potency

[Rose'sACL]

this is some of the most highly concentrated, potent ether i've ever come across.. 98.9% ether potency
I am asking you again. Tell me how you came to the conclusion that fga is directly proportional free throws attempts.
Will you give 2 players same number of free throws if they attempted same number of fga? Play style doesn't factor into it at all?FTr is more flawed than def rating which is a very flawed stat in itself. How many shots in paint were contested or not contested don't matter at all?

[3ball]

I am asking you again. Tell me how you came to the conclusion that fga is directly proportional free throws attempts.
Will you give 2 players same number of free throws if they attempted same number of fga? Play style doesn't factor into it at all?FTr is more flawed than def rating which is a very flawed stat in itself. How many shots in paint were contested or not contested don't matter at all?
No one attacked the rim more than MJ.

That's why they called him "Air" Jordan.

That's why he was the highest volume dunking GUARD of all time - this is a FACT - we have the numbers, so it's not conjecture.

MJ posterized way more guys than Wade, Harden, Lebron or ANY wing player today - MJ posterized every big name (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11013142&postcount=2) from his era, and every great big man from his era - you don't see Harden or Lebron posterizing each other or amassing dozens of facials on today's prominent bigs... But MJ did as a standard.
.

[DonDadda59]

Except he didnt. His ft attempts are the same or higher. He just shoots way more field goals than anyone else today.

Jordan '95-'96: 22.6 FGA (3.2 3s/gm), FTr: .355

Westbrook '14-'15: 22 FGA (4.3 3s/gm), FTr: .445

:confusedshrug:

[Rose'sACL]

No one attacked the rim more than MJ.

That's why they called him "Air" Jordan.

That's why he was the highest volume dunking GUARD of all time - this is a FACT - we have the numbers, so it's not conjecture.

MJ posterized way more guys than Wade, Harden, Lebron or ANY wing player today - MJ posterized every big name (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11013142&postcount=2) from his era, and every great big man from his era - you don't see Harden or Lebron posterizing each other or amassing dozens of facials on today's prominent bigs... But MJ did as a standard.
.
Dunking is the only thing that means attacking the basket. Layups don't mean anything. 3 ball , ladies and gentlemen. I am sure dondadda will be here to support this idiot.

[Kvnzhangyay]

It's not conjecture - it's facts - MJ would shoot more FT's today, because players today shoot more FT's and get fouls called on a higher proportion of plays/shots.. period.. the numbers are what they are.

"would" and "facts" lol kk

[andgar923]

some of these fools clearly never saw MJ play.

MJ used to both drive and shoot mid range jumpers. But he was always attacking and putting pressure on the defense. Regardless of him attacking on off the ball curls or with the ball, that was his mentality. He always looked to take a step towards the basket, not back.

Take a look at most of today's players, they go away from the basket (step back) or hang out at the 3point line.

So it isn't hard to assume that if MJ played today, that he'd be getting to the line at a higher rate than today's players. All we have to do is look at Wizards Jordan's shot selection to see how he attacked the paint. He was constantly moving without the ball, trying to find gaps inside the defense and attack it to get easier opportunities whenever possible.

A young MJ would be destroying the league.

If Harden a less skilled player and much inferior athlete can get to the line that much, imagine a 6'6 version of Westbrook (speed and attack mentality) with a better mid range game than CP3, Kobe footwork/skills, Wiggins-like jumping and Nash IQ?

[Rose'sACL]

some of these fools clearly never saw MJ play.

MJ used to both drive and shoot mid range jumpers. But he was always attacking and putting pressure on the defense. Regardless of him attacking on off the ball curls or with the ball, that was his mentality. He always looked to take a step towards the basket, not back.

Take a look at most of today's players, they go away from the basket (step back) or hang out at the 3point line.

So it isn't hard to assume that if MJ played today, that he'd be getting to the line at a higher rate than today's players. All we have to do is look at Wizards Jordan's shot selection to see how he attacked the paint. He was constantly moving without the ball, trying to find gaps inside the defense and attack it to get easier opportunities whenever possible.

A young MJ would be destroying the league.

If Harden a less skilled player and much inferior athlete can get to the line that much, imagine a 6'6 version of Westbrook (speed and attack mentality) with a better mid range game than CP3, Kobe footwork/skills, Wiggins-like jumping and Nash IQ?
yes, anyone who doesn't think that MJ was a God is a fool. do you wonder why people like me who think that MJ is the GOAT still hate his fans? people like you are the reason. He is retired and most people you argue with think that he is the GOAT but idiots like you have to make him into a GOD. i can understand if some fans of today's players are trolls give that current players would have a lot of young fans but when you idiots stoop down to their level then it clearly shows that you are very insecure about Jordan's place in history even when majority thinks that he is #1 overall.

[andgar923]

yes, anyone who doesn't think that MJ was a God is a fool. do you wonder why people like me who think that MJ is the GOAT still hate his fans? people like you are the reason. He is retired and most people you argue with think that he is the GOAT but idiots like you have to make him into a GOD. i can understand if some fans of today's players are trolls give that current players would have a lot of young fans but when you idiots stoop down to their level then it clearly shows that you are very insecure about Jordan's place in history even when majority thinks that he is #1 overall.

did I state he was a GOD?

Stop the bs.

"insecurity" :rolleyes:

It's about 'correcting' misconceptions, myths, and lies.

[sdot_thadon]

Except he didnt. His ft attempts are the same or higher. He just shoots way more field goals than anyone else today.
Oh ok, this makes sense to me. His fga per game were substantially higher than most current era guys. So by default his ftr would be skewed a bit in high volume seasons. I know at least early in his career, need to see some data.

** looking at the numbers he really only had a few outlier years where he shot more than the average star in today's league. However if you look at his 1st 5 years in the league he's on par with all those guys save for harden who is disgusting sometimes lol.