The stats prove it was harder to get a dunk in the 80's

[3ball]

.
Year..... Shots..... Dunks....Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk


The above data was retrieved from the Philadelpia 76'er media guides and Henry Pollack's statistical guide - links are at the bottom... Flpiii also verified the above data via the same sources here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10488122&postcount=67

In the 80's, it was clearly much harder to get a dunk - it was basically two-pointer basketball, so the defense just crowded the paint - of course, the lack of spacing and resulting crowded paints were exacerbated by legal paint-camping and a more physical brand of basketball allowed by the NBA (i.e. hand-checking and other physical measures were legal.. and flagrant fouls didn't exist so there was zero culture of repercussion for physical play)

As you can see - in 1992, dunking became markedly easier as shots-per-dunk declined to the levels it remains at today - this is due to the Bulls championship in 1991, where the league was introduced to the triangle offense and spacing strategy previously unseen.. By the time the season started in 1992, many teams were copying aspects of the triangle, such as everyone cutting through after making the post entry pass, etc..


SOURCES for dunk data - Links to each Philadelphia 76'er Media Guide

1988... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U
1989... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U
1990... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U
1991... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V
1992... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck
1993... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U

1995... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VI_53SvF_Ck
1996... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck

Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guide.. 87'-05 (page 10)... http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf

[navy]

You dont know what the word proof means.

Correct Statement:

The stats show that there were less dunks in the 80s. Here is my hypothesis on why that is....

[3ball]

You dont know what the word proof means.

Correct Statement:

The stats show that there were less dunks in the 80s. Here is my hypothesis on why that is....


Less dunks in the 80's and less dunks in the early 2000's too - just like the 80's - the early 2000's was known for physicality hitting a peak, which is why the rules got changed in 2005.

The rules got changed because the early 2000's had started to look like two-pointer basketball of the 80's with the paint congestion, but WITHOUT the skill (the NBA's best losing to Euroleague 7 times on the biggest stage).

Those were the final years of the old rules and the only time Lebron shot 41.7% FG, 48% TS, and 99 ORtg in 2004, worse than 40-year old MJ did against the exact same defenses in 2002 and 2003.

[navy]

Less dunks in the 80's and less dunks in the early 2000's too - just like the 80's - the early 2000's was known for physicality hitting a peak, which is why the rules got changed in 2005.

The rules got changed because the early 2000's had started to look like two-pointer basketball of the 80's with the paint congestion, but WITHOUT the skill (the NBA's best losing to Euroleague 7 times on the biggest stage).

Those were the final years of the old rules and the only time Lebron shot 41.7% FG, 48% TS, and 99 ORtg in 2004, worse than 40-year old MJ did against the exact same defenses in 2002 and 2003.
Using fresh out of high school Rookie stats to make a point?

3ball my dude. :biggums:

[Rose'sACL]

Those were the final years of the old rules and the only time Lebron shot 41.7% FG, 48% TS, and 99 ORtg in 2004, worse than 40-year old MJ did against the exact same defenses in 2002 and 2003.
you forgot to mention that lebron was a rookie straight out of high school in 2004. Same for wade and melo.

here is the truth:
The close outcome of 2000 and the humiliating results of 2002 prompted a number of NBA superstars to agree to join the team for the FIBA Americas Championship 2003, which the squad was required to participate in to qualify for the 2004 Summer Olympics. The team easily cruised to a first-place finish, earning it a spot in Athens, Greece the following summer.

However, the dominant team that competed in 2003 could not be kept together. Nine of its 12 players elected not to participate in Athens. The revamped 2004 team consisted of some young NBA stars early in their careers, such as Dwyane Wade, LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony, but also included recent Most Valuable Players Tim Duncan and Allen Iverson. The team was coached by Larry Brown.


so a team made of rookies and a coach which hated playing rookies is the fault of the young players.
how many time would you like to be ethered in a single day?

[3ball]

Using fresh out of high school Rookie stats to make a point?

3ball my dude. :biggums:
It's just one of the ways we know previous era players were better - consider this - I planned on making a thread comparing stats for Westbrook and MJ, and I couldn't even make it, because Westbrook's early career stats are so abysmal.

Same thing with Durant, Lebron, Wade, ALL THESE GUYS.

None of these guys came into the league knowing how to produce at an elite level and win games - but Jordan did, because he learned all the fundamentals at North Carolina, just like ALL the players back then..

But now, it takes guys 5-6 years to reach the same level Jordan, Bird, and Magic were at RIGHT AWAY, their first game itl - now are we to assume that once they finally get there in year 6, that Bird, Magic and company haven't ALSO gotten better and moved on??... So really, today's player is just being taught the game all wrong, and other than exceptions, it's producing inferior players across the board that can never catch up.
.

[RepMe]

There were probably less dunks in the 40s. GOAT defensive era?

[navy]

It's just one of the ways we know previous era players were better - consider this - I planned on making a thread comparing stats for Westbrook and MJ, and I couldn't even make it, because Westbrook's early career stats are so abysmal.

Same thing with Durant, Lebron, Wade, ALL THESE GUYS.

None of these guys came into the league knowing how to produce at an elite level and win games - but Jordan did, because he learned all the fundamentals at North Carolina, just like ALL the players back then..

But now, it takes guys 5-6 years to reach the same level Jordan, Bird, and Magic were at RIGHT AWAY, their first game itl - now are we to assume that once they finally get there in year 6, that Bird, Magic and company haven't ALSO gotten better and moved on??... So really, today's player is just being taught the game all wrong, and other than exceptions, it's producing inferior players across the board that can never catch up.

:biggums:

Jordan made the playoffs with a 30-52 and record you are talking about knowing how to win right away.

[RightTwoCensor]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qza0NYSfXw

[Jameerthefear]

Those stats actually prove that that was a weak ass era full of unathletic white boys. Next.

[sd3035]

inferior athletes

[Rose'sACL]

It's just one of the ways we know previous era players were better - consider this - I planned on making a thread comparing stats for Westbrook and MJ, and I couldn't even make it, because Westbrook's early career stats are so abysmal.

Same thing with Durant, Lebron, Wade, ALL THESE GUYS.

None of these guys came into the league knowing how to produce at an elite level and win games - but Jordan did, because he learned all the fundamentals at North Carolina, just like ALL the players back then..

But now, it takes guys 5-6 years to reach the same level Jordan, Bird, and Magic were at RIGHT AWAY, their first game itl - now are we to assume that once they finally get there in year 6, that Bird, Magic and company haven't ALSO gotten better and moved on??... So really, today's player is just being taught the game all wrong, and other than exceptions, it's producing inferior players across the board that can never catch up.
yes, i remember that jordan who came into the league and got bulls to 40+ wins in every season.
also, why do you credit college instead of just age? lebron's stats got better and better as he aged. elite players always benefit more from playing in the nba than in college. it is the non-elite talent that needs more playing time of college. garnett and lebron seem to have done very well.
if you want to credit college then take stats from the time lebron would have entered the league after 4 years in college.

[3ball]

Those stats actually prove that that was a weak ass era full of unathletic white boys. Next.


Dunks declined in the early 2000's back down to 80's levels, right around the time the NBA was about to change the rules/make it easier because the game had gotten too congested and physical.

Dunk frequency has fluctuated - i.e guys were dunking in 1995 more than they do today.
.

[Rose'sACL]

It's just one of the ways we know previous era players were better - consider this - I planned on making a thread comparing stats for Westbrook and MJ, and I couldn't even make it, because Westbrook's early career stats are so abysmal.

Same thing with Durant, Lebron, Wade, ALL THESE GUYS.

None of these guys came into the league knowing how to produce at an elite level and win games - but Jordan did, because he learned all the fundamentals at North Carolina, just like ALL the players back then..

But now, it takes guys 5-6 years to reach the same level Jordan, Bird, and Magic were at RIGHT AWAY, their first game itl - now are we to assume that once they finally get there in year 6, that Bird, Magic and company haven't ALSO gotten better and moved on??... So really, today's player is just being taught the game all wrong, and other than exceptions, it's producing inferior players across the board that can never catch up.
.
lebron, durant, prime wade, garnett, kobe would all be top 5-6 players in any era. all of them came out of high school or 1 and done. stop talking like college does anything for good players that nba can't.

[Trollsmasher]

Those stats actually prove that that was a weak ass era full of unathletic white boys. Next.

inferior athletes
/thred

[3ball]

lebron, durant, prime wade, garnett, kobe would all be top 5-6 players in any era. all of them came out of high school or 1 and done. stop talking like college does anything for good players that nba can't.
overall, players are less ready coming into the league than they used to be - a rookie shooting 35% is standard - we almost EXPECT guys to shoot like that nowadays for their first few years.

even guys like Garnett, Kobe, Westbrook (i think he came out after his freshman year) - none of these guys came into the league ready to contribute from day 1 at an all-time level like MJ, Bird David Robinson, kareem, Isiah, Magic and many more from previous eras did.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Future negged. These agenda threads are getting worse and worse.

[Rose'sACL]

Dunks declined in the early 2000's back down to 80's levels, right around the time the NBA was about to change the rules/make it easier because the game had gotten too congested and physical.

Dunk frequency has fluctuated - i.e guys were dunking in 1995 more than they do today.
Mindset like AI was the reason early 2000s had such a cluster**** of an offense on almost all teams. everyone wanted to be flashy because they saw that flashy plays make you popular. AI is a prime example. Duncan was the clear better player but AI made more money in those days.
Everyone wanted to be like mike without realizing what they do best. most wings wanted to score on ISO. league started to move away slowly and now we see plenty of teams without too much superstar power be really good. early 2000s were the dark days for offense in the league.

[Rose'sACL]

overall, players are less ready coming into the league than they used to be - a rookie shooting 35% is standard - we almost EXPECT guys to shoot like that nowadays for their first few years.

even guys like Garnett, Kobe, Westbrook (i think he came out after his freshman year) - none of these guys came into the league ready to contribute from day 1 at an all-time level like MJ, Bird David Robinson, kareem, Isiah, Magic and many more from previous eras did.
what does a rookie shooting 35% relate to your thread when you should be talking about how 4th yr players are doing given that you are comparing them to rookies from 80s who played 4 years of college. believe it or not, players grow plus they keep working on their game so age matters, not playing in college. it is not like Jordan started winning 50 games right out of college either and that was just a bad east which was just top heavy.

[3ball]

believe it or not, players grow plus they keep working on their game so age matters, not playing in college.


:confusedshrug:

Thread Cliffs: It was harder to get a dunk in the 80's.

This shouldn't be a surprise, since there was zero spacing in the all-2-pointer, pre-triangle 80's.. Plus paint-camping was legal.

Once the triangle helped spacing in the 90's and guys started taking 3-pointers, it made all the difference - heck, they were dunking more in 1995 (20 years ago) than they are now, although i think that had more to do with a bunch of all-time dunkers in the league all at the same time - Shaq, Webber, Robinson, Kemp, and Barkley all happened to be guys that amassed record dunk totals every year, and they were all playing at the same time.

[Rose'sACL]

:confusedshrug:

Thread Cliffs: It was harder to get a dunk in the 80's.

This shouldn't be a surprise, since there was zero spacing in the all-2-pointer, pre-triangle 80's.. Plus paint-camping was legal.

Once the triangle helped spacing in the 90's and guys started taking 3-pointers, it made all the difference - heck, they were dunking more in 1995 (20 years ago) than they are now, although i think that had more to do with a bunch of all-time dunkers in the league all at the same time - Shaq, Webber, Robinson, Kemp, and Barkley all happened to be guys that amassed record dunk totals every year, and they were all playing at the same time.
yes, today's league doesn't have enough dunkers. lol.

[aj1987]

tl;dr - '80's = Weak era and '90's = the same defense as today.

Don't you keep harping on about how it was extremely difficult to dunk in the '90's? The stats you just posted prove exactly the opposite of that.

[3ball]

yes, today's league doesn't have enough dunkers. lol.
more low volume point guard dunkers and less bigs that dunk at an all-time volume level.

like, webber, barkley, shaq, robinson and kemp are literally 5 of the highest volume dunkers EVER - they all played in the league at the same time.

compare to today - who are the monster big man dunkers today - deandre jordan obviously, but who else?... there actually isn't even 1 other guy that matches up to the aformentioned monsters... Maaaybe Drummond, but his volume of dunks (about 150) isn't really that high - great wing dunkers get that many (i.e. MJ, Dominique, etc.)

there are just far less monster big man dunkers in the last few years than there were in previous times... also, at that time, there were more high volume wing dunkers too - Pippen, Penny, Grant Hill, Finley, Stackhouse, and Ceballos all registered over 100 dunks in 1995 - we don't have as many wing players from today who got over 100 dunks this season...
.

[ShawkFactory]

The copy/paste function tells me that 3ball is a ***

[Droid101]

That pretty much just means teams were willing to settle for garbage long two's more, rather than the stupid point you're trying to make.

[3ball]

That pretty much just means teams were willing to settle for garbage long two's more, rather than the stupid point you're trying to make.
mmmmm... nah

the stats show that in 1995 (20 years ago), guys were dunking more than they are today.

so they weren't settling for long 2's in 1988, but by 1995 were all of a sudden 3-and-D...

however, by 1995, teams WERE taking 15 three-pointers per game (as opposed to 5 per game in 1988), and the Bulls triangle had given the league a glimpse into a little something called "spacing"... spacing would continue to evolve as the years went on..

in the early 2000's, dunking declined again back to the 80's levels, as physicality and lane congestion reached an all-time high (which inspired the league to change the rules to make offense easier in 2005, when they banned hand-checking, various other physicality, and paint-camping).
.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Weak era

No one cares.

[Rose'sACL]

mmmmm... nah

the stats show that in 1995 (20 years ago), guys were dunking more than they are today.

so they weren't settling for long 2's in 1988, but by 1995 were 3-and-D...

but by 1995, teams WERE taking 17 three-pointers per game (as opposed to 5 per game in 1988), and the Bulls had indoctrinated the league with a little something called "spacing"... spacing would continue to evolve as the years went on..

in the early 2000's, dunking declined again back to the 80's levels, as physicality and lane congestion reached an all-time high (which inspired the league to change the rules to make offense easier in 2005, when they banned hand-checking, various other physicality, and paint-camping).
Bolded was more because of stupid trend of taking contested jumpers to be like mike not realizing that mike won in a system under a great coach plus he had more talent.

[Nash]

3ball is reaching euroleague level of obsessiveness

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yeah but was it harder to score a basket?

:yaohappy:

The league was averaging 110 ppg in the 80's.

How much ppg did the "bad boys" Pistons give up again?

:yaohappy:

[warriorfan]

https://mspbwatch.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/afewgoodmen.gif





Bron Stan = Tom Cruise

3ball = Jack Nicholson

[Achilleas]

who cares :sleeping

[KingBeasley08]

jeez these Jordan stans living in the past. Jordan retired son. go on youtube, take out some tissues and lotion, and watch his highlights again

He's irrelevant to the league today

[Kvnzhangyay]

this is the dumbest sht ever

first of all, just cause there were less dunks doesnt mean it was harder to dunk

second of all, I dont think OP understands the definition of prove

[oarabbus]

I didn't realize the league was so shitty back in the 80s that there are almost TWICE as many dunks today

Modern Era :applause:

[3ball]

I didn't realize the league was so shitty back in the 80s that there are almost TWICE as many dunks today


Pure lies - look at the data chart in the OP.

And players dunked more in 1995 (20 years ago) than they do today

But dunking frequency has fluctuated over the years - in the early 2000's, dunking declined back to where it was in the 80's.
.

[Rose'sACL]

Look at the actual numbers before posting erroneous shit.

Players dunked more in 1995 than they do today.

But dunking frequency has fluctuated over the years - in the early 2000's, dunking declined back to where it was in the 80's.
Are you retarded or just blind?

[oarabbus]

No they didn't - they dunk 1 in every 22 shots today, and in 1988 it was 1 in every 28.

Players dunked more in 1995 than they do today.

But dunking frequency has fluctuated over the years - in the early 2000's, dunking declined back to where it was in the 80's.


Nope sorry, try again.

2014 - 9030 dunks
1995 - 8645 dunks




According to the data, 2013 was the greatest year of all time, followed by 2009 and 1998. :applause:

[3ball]

Nope sorry, try again.

2014 - 9030 dunks
1995 - 8645 dunks




According to the data, 2013 was the greatest year of all time, followed by 2009 and 1998. :applause:
They dunked 1 in every 20 shots in 1995, and 1 in every 23 shots today.

So they dunked more often in 1995.

[Rose'sACL]

They dunked 1 in every 20 shots in 1995, and 1 in every 23 shots today.

So they dunked more often in 1995.
Were the games shorter in length? Were there 10 mins quarters?

[Smoke117]

These stats might actually be interesting if you weren't using them to serve your one ISH agenda/topic/loverfromafar (as far as he knows anyway): Michael Jordan.

[oarabbus]

They dunked 1 in every 20 shots in 1995, and 1 in every 23 shots today.

So they dunked more often in 1995.


But they dunked more, period, in 2013, 2009, and then 1998, the three greatest years on record.

[3ball]

Were the games shorter in length? Were there 10 mins quarters?
12 minute quarters, just like today, but what difference would that make anyway.. seems like you're grasping at straws.. you should go to bed son

[3ball]

But they dunked more, period, in 2013, 2009, and then 1998, the three greatest years on record.
who cares about total dunks?

it's all about frequency.

if you can't understand that, than you're dumb

[Achilleas]

:facepalm
because in 80's nobody shooting 3's
now all the teams shootin 3's
busted again

[Rose'sACL]

12 minute quarters, just like today, but what difference would that make anyway.. seems like you're grasping at straws.. you should go to bed son
Number of dunks is number of dunks. If team 1 makes 10 shots out of which 2 are dunks and team 2 is making 4 shots out of which 1 is dunk but both play same amount of mins then it is pretty clear that team 1 is dunking more often as you divide number of dunks by mins and not by number of total shots taken.
By your retarded logic team 2 is dunking more often which just rewards team 2 for making less shots.

[oarabbus]

who cares about total dunks?

it's all about frequency.

if you can't understand that, than you're dumb


3ball is all about frequency.

You guys want to know a good indicator of frequency?

Dunks per game.

There were 82 games in 1988, and 82 games in 2013.

1988 Dunks Per Game: 69.84
2014 Dunks Per Game: 110.21


Wow 2014 even has a greater frequency :applause:

[3ball]

The modern era is advanced to a level far beyond what was seen in 1988. The sheer number of shots is incredible, over 200,000. AND there are more dunks TOTAL. If you can't understand that, "than" you're dumb.
Pace and scoring are both higher today compared to the mid-90's.. Faster pace means more possessions, more shots, and more total dunks.

The pace, scoring and also the number of teams (the 80's had only 20 teams) will corrupt the total dunk figure - that's why frequency is what matters.

But let me guess - pace and the number of actual teams in the league don't matter.. jfc

It's the same thing as looking at Wilt's scoring average without considering pace - but i guess that's how you get down - forget real logic, let's just be dumb.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I feel bad for 3ball. I bet he watches the games today and just thinks "Oh my god, this basketball is shitty. These guys have nothing on the 90s era" just to pump up the delusional myth in his head that 90s basketball was on a completely different tier than today's game. I bet he hates watching the game all because of his agenda

[oarabbus]

Pace and scoring are both higher today compared to the mid-90's.. Faster pace means more possessions, more shots, and more total dunks.

The pace, scoring and also the number of teams (the 80's had only 20 teams) will corrupt the total dunk figure - that's why frequency is what matters.

20 teams you say? Sorry, no asterisks. Today the frequency of dunks (dunks per game) is greater than it was back then. Thank you for proving my point :applause:

When the stats prove that it was harder to dunk in the 60s, it will only further cement Russell as the GOAT.

[3ball]

20 teams you say? Sorry, no asterisks. Today the frequency of dunks (dunks per game) is greater than it was back then. Thank you for proving my point :applause:

When the stats prove that it was harder to dunk in the 60s, it will only further cement Russell as the GOAT.
It's confirmed - you're the dumbest poster on this board.. Literally.. You should go back to school.. I'm not joking.

Anyway, I'll play along with your stupidity - In 1995, they dunked more than today - in 1998 too, and actually many other years.

[Rose'sACL]

It's confirmed - you're the dumbest poster on this board.. Literally.. You should go back to school.. I'm not joking.

Anyway, I'll play along with your stupidity - In 1995, they dunked more than today - in 1998 too, and actually many other years.
No, they didn't. Prove it.

[3ball]

No, they didn't. Prove it.
Re-read the OP.

1 in every 23 shots today is a dunk, whereas it was only 1 in 20 back in 1995, a full 20 years ago.

[oarabbus]

It's confirmed - you're the dumbest poster on this board.. Literally.. You should go back to school.. I'm not joking.

Anyway, I'll play along with your stupidity - In 1995, they dunked more than today - in 1998 too, and actually many other years.
:oldlol:


Son, if I need to go back to school you'd be in special ed. You can't even understand your own statistics, that's how poorly functioning your brain is.

According to frequency, 2013 was the GOAT year, followed by 2009, followed by 1998. It's very simple little boy. Now please run along and find some other stats you are unable to comprehend.

[Rose'sACL]

Re-read the OP.

1 in every 23 shots today is a dunk, whereas it was only 1 in 20 back in 1995, a full 20 years ago.
You just wrote that they dunked more in 1995 which would mean more dunks per min given that an NBA game is still 48 mins long.
I just called you out on your lie. Try again in some other way. See if it works.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Re-read the OP.

1 in every 23 shots today is a dunk, whereas it was only 1 in 20 back in 1995, a full 20 years ago.
1/23 today = 4.3% of shots are dunks
1/20 in the 90s = 5% of shots are dunks

So it was easier to dunk in the 90s? Must be because of a lack of zone/solid interior defense.

[3ball]

No, they didn't. Prove it.
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VTCuFSFVikp

^^^^^^ Here's the dunk totals for 1995 - go to the very bottom of the page - it says there were a total of 8645 dunks that season.

Now go to basketball-reference.com - there were a total of 180,414 shots taken in 1995.. Do the math: 180,414/8645 = 20.87 shots for every 1 dunk

For 2014, it was 22.61 shots for every 1 dunk.. So today's players dunk less often than players did 20 years ago in 1995.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Guys am I reading this right? 3Ball just went full retard, right?

[oarabbus]

Guys am I reading this right? 3Ball just went full retard, right?


Yes, completely. I broke his mind by pointing out that 2013 was the hardest to dunk of any year in the OP :oldlol: he needs to learn to cherry pick stats such that they cannot backfire on him like this.

2013 > 1995
2013 > 1988
2013 > 1998


Well, I can't take all the credit. Nearly half a dozen posters shat on his poorly constructed arguments and now he's just spouting nonsense.

[3ball]

1/23 today = 4.3% of shots are dunks
1/20 in the 90s = 5% of shots are dunks

So it was easier to dunk in the 90s? Must be because of a lack of zone/solid interior defense.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines:

2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.


Legal paint-camping.. :pimp:

[Rose'sACL]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines:

2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.


Legal paint-camping.. :pimp:
you went full retard again by proving that it was easier to dunk in the 90s.

[J Shuttlesworth]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines:

2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.


Legal paint-camping.. :pimp:
Yet players were dunking more in 95 right? Must be because zone defense is more elite

Thanks for pointing this out, 3ball

[oarabbus]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines:

2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.


Legal paint-camping.. :pimp:

3ball, your data show that 2013 > 1998
2013 > 1988
2013 > 1995

when it comes to difficulty of getting a dunk. Great information, great thread! :applause:

[3ball]

Yet players were dunking more in 95 right? Must be because zone defense is more elite

Thanks for pointing this out, 3ball
dunking frequency fluctuates - guys dunked more often in 1995 than today, less often in 1993, more often in 1998, less often in 2001... :confusedshrug:

you have to dig deeper to find the real reasons for the fluctuations - a reason that you think works for one year doesn't work the next because dunking frequency fluctuates

btw, you guys are sensitive tonight - must be all the facts itt that expose today's soft, marching band-like spacing and routine (drive and kick).

[J Shuttlesworth]

3ball, serious question

Do you actually enjoy watching basketball today? Or do you just watch it to try to find flaws to inflate your perception of Jordan/90s?

[oarabbus]

dunking frequency fluctuates - guys dunked more often in 1995 than today, less often in 1993, more often in 1998, less often in 2001... :confusedshrug:

you have to dig deeper to find the real reasons for the fluctuations - a reason that you think works for one year doesn't work the next because dunking frequency fluctuates

btw, you guys are sensitive tonight - must be all the facts itt that expose today's soft, marching band-like spacing and routine (drive and kick).

And less often than all of those in 2013, the GOAT year.

3balls mind is broken at this fact

[3ball]

3ball, your data show that 2013 > 1998
2013 > 1988
2013 > 1995

when it comes to difficulty of getting a dunk. Great information, great thread! :applause:
You flip-flopped the 1988 one - 1988 was a much tougher dunking environment - guys only dunked 1 in every 29 shots.. This is far less than just four years later in 1992, when it was 1 in every 23 shots, which happens to be the same frequency as today.

But in the 80's, it was still just 2-pointer basketball, so all 10 players just stood inside the paint for entire possession, on every possession.. so it's no surprise that dunks were harder to come by.

By 1995, teams were shooting 15 threes per game and spacing strategy had advanced due to teams copying aspects of the triangle - so dunking was easier than the 80's.. However, dunking frequency at the time was also boosted by the abnormally high number of high-volume, monster, big man dunkers - Shaq, Robinson, Webber, Barkley and Kemp are 5 of the highest volume dunkers of all time, and they were all playing in the league at the same time (also, there were tons of other bigs that amassed large dunk totals - Alonzo, Hakeem, Otis Thorpe, Dale Davis) - otoh, in today's game, there are only 1 or 2 monster big man dunkers that can compare... The mid-late 90's happened to be a time period where there were an abnormally high number of high volume dunkers.

Also, in 1995, there were 6 wing players that amassed over 100 dunks (Pippen, Penny, Grant Hill, Stackhouse, Finley, Ceballos) - we don't have that many wing players today that amassed over 100 dunks.

But by 2000, the game had reached a peak level of physicality and lane congestion - teams were taking full advantage of allowable physicality and paint-camping.. Dunking went back down to 80's levels, and the league looked to make changes so offense was easier - they did this in 2005 by banning various physicality including hand-checking, as well as paint-camping... Not surprisingly, there was a material bump in dunking frequency in 2005, the first year of the new rules.

[3ball]

you went full retard again by proving that it was easier to dunk in the 90s.
Btw, remember, the paint is 16 x 19 feet - in today's game, a defender must stand right next to their man and be within armslength at all times while inside the paint.

A man's arm is only 3 feet long - so a defender cannot stand under the rim while their man is 8 feet away on the block - the defender must go stand right next to their man on the block and leave the rim unprotected.

Otoh, in previous eras, a defender could stay anywhere in the paint if their man was anywhere inside the painted area, or within 3 feet of either side.

That's a ton of latitude - that's why you FREQUENTLY saw defenders camped out under the rim while their man was 8 feet away on the block - technically, defenders could stand on one side of the paint, while their man was 3 feet outside the paint on the other side, or 19 feet away (they just had to makes sure they weren't violating other rules by doing so, namely becoming a 2nd defender on someone without the ball)...

Also, referees had to eyeball that 3 feet distance outside the paint - naturally, they let it go much of the time, which is why defenders frequently camped in the paint while their man was behind the 3-point line - here are some examples taken from a single highlight video:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10704674&postcount=97

[3ball]

.
SG's and SF's with 100+ Dunks in a Season


1988 - 1996..............2001 - 2014

Michael Jordan.................. Kevin Durant
Dominique Wilkins............. Lebron James
Clyde Drexler.................... Dwayne Wade
Scottie Pippen................... Carmelo Anthony
Penny Hardaway................ Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill.......................... Tracy McGrady
Ron Harper....................... Andre Iguodala
Richard Dumas.................. Rudy Gay
Stacy Augmon................... Shawn Marion
Michael Finley.................... Richard Jefferson
Derrick McKey
Jerry Stackhouse
Cedric Ceballos
Roy Hinson
Chris Morris


As you can see, previous eras had higher-volume dunking bigs AND WINGS.


Sources for dunk data - Links to each Philadelphia 76'er Media Guide:

1988... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U
1989... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U
1990... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U
1991... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V
1992... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck
1993... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U

1995... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VI_53SvF_Ck
1996... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck

Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guide.. 87'-05 (page 10)... http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf

[TripleA]

so your saying they dunked more but it was harder to dunk

[juju151111]

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VTCuFSFVikp

^^^^^^ Here's the dunk totals for 1995 - go to the very bottom of the page - it says there were a total of 8645 dunks that season.

Now go to basketball-reference.com - there were a total of 180,414 shots taken in 1995.. Do the math: 180,414/8645 = 20.87 shots for every 1 dunk

For 2014, it was 22.61 shots for every 1 dunk.. So today's players dunk less often than players did 20 years ago in 1995.
Your arguing the wrong side. :wtf:

[3ball]

Your arguing the wrong side. :wtf:
someone said the reason dunking was less frequent in the 80's is because guys weren't good at dunking, so i pointed out that 20 years ago in 1995, they dunked more than today..

dunking frequency has fluctuated over the years..

guys dunked more often in 1995 than today, but less often in 2001 than today...

look at the chart - dunk frequency has fluctuated for a while... but that doesn't change the fact that there were more high volume dunking bigs AND wings in previous eras... more mammoth dunkers at all positions than we have today - but again, it fluctuates - in a few years, we could easily have another glut of high-volume dunkers like we've had in years past.

[Dr.J4ever]

3ball, serious question

Do you actually enjoy watching basketball today? Or do you just watch it to try to find flaws to inflate your perception of Jordan/90s?

Yes, 3ball, I asked you the same question the other day with no reply. Just for curiosity sake, do you like watching basketball today? If so, which team do you root for, and who is your favorite player?

[3ball]

so your saying they dunked more but it was harder to dunk
there was a glut of high volume dunking players in mid-late 90's, both wings and big men.. this affects overall league-wide dunking frequency, but other factors affect it more, such as regulatory, playing-style of strategic changes.

[3ball]

Yes, 3ball, I asked you the same question the other day with no reply. Just for curiosity sake, do you like watching basketball today? If so, which team do you root for, and who is your favorite player?
Is the season going on?... I thought it was the offseason.. Oh wait.. the playoffs are about to start?

:D

[3ball]

Defense has changed over the years - we all know the NBA officially stated (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) that the bans on hand-checking and physicality succeeded at increasing penetration.. But in addition to the hands-off approach that must be used when guarding penetration, today's defenders are also incredibly restricted inside the 16 x 19 foot painted area.

Specifically, the NBA banned paint-camping and zone inside the paint with the defensive 3 seconds rule - defenders can't stand in the paint with no other offensive players around (they can't zone).. Instead, the defensive 3 seconds rule requires defenders to stand right next to their man (within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html)) at all times while inside the paint.

With paint-camping banned, bigs are forced to come out of the paint to flood and shade in the ballhandler's wheelhouse - the perimeter.. Defending guards on the perimeter is a massive disadvantage for bigs, but today's spacing and ban on paint-camping necessitate it - otoh, in previous eras, there was no spacing and paint-camping was legal, so bigs didn't need to come out of the paint to shade on the perimeter, although they still did in many situations, such as screen-roll (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8).

To summarize, today's paint-camping ban along with spacing creates a greater need for flooding and shading than previous eras.. Although these partial zones executed outside the paint by slow bigs are easy to beat for perimeter ballhandlers, they provide a bandaid to offset today's spacing, paint-camping ban, and hand-check ban, so defensive effectiveness doesn't fall off a cliff in comparison to previous eras.

It makes sense that the NBA wouldn't ever take everything away from the defense (hand-check ban, physicality ban, paint-camping ban) without giving them something back (zones outside the paint) - the balanced regulatory approach coupled with constant strategic adjustments on both sides of the ball is the reason why league-wide ORtg has remained between 106-108 for the last 30 years (except from 1998-2004).
.

[3ball]

Yes, 3ball, I asked you the same question the other day with no reply. Just for curiosity sake, do you like watching basketball today? If so, which team do you root for, and who is your favorite player?
I used to root for OKC, but the coaching and front office moves have soured me on that franchise - I've abandoned them until they get their act together and get healthy and stop being unlucky.

Favorite player from today's game is Paul Pierce.. Best all-round offensive game.. Great instincts.. True basketball skill - he's one of those guys that feels the game - not like Bird or Magic or anything, but his scoring ability is pretty sweet and he has a great court presence and swag.

[Dr.J4ever]

I used to root for OKC, but the coaching and front office moves have soured me on that franchise - I've abandoned them until they get their act together and get healthy and stop being unlucky.

Favorite player from today's game is Paul Pierce.. Best all-round offensive game.. Great instincts.. True basketball skill - he's one of those guys that feels the game - not like Bird or Magic or anything, but his scoring ability is pretty sweet and he has a great court presence and swag.

You might actually be in the majority here and I'm the exception. I assume you rooted for Chicago during the 90s, and this is what I can't figure out with not just 3ball, but a lot of the posters here.

I mean, I was a Julius Erving stan(new word but same thing back then), and will always root for Philly come hell or high water. The thing is the 76ers are rebuilding. The future is exciting for them, but in the meantime I partake of the great basketball happening around the league.

Lots of great and intriguing match ups coming up in these playoffs. Anyway back to the thread with you guys.

[Kvnzhangyay]

You flip-flopped the 1988 one - 1988 was a much tougher dunking environment - guys only dunked 1 in every 29 shots.. This is far less than just four years later in 1992, when it was 1 in every 23 shots, which happens to be the same frequency as today.

But in the 80's, it was still just 2-pointer basketball, so all 10 players just stood inside the paint for entire possession, on every possession.. so it's no surprise that dunks were harder to come by.

By 1995, teams were shooting 15 threes per game and spacing strategy had advanced due to teams copying aspects of the triangle - so dunking was easier than the 80's.. However, dunking frequency at the time was also boosted by the abnormally high number of high-volume, monster, big man dunkers - Shaq, Robinson, Webber, Barkley and Kemp are 5 of the highest volume dunkers of all time, and they were all playing in the league at the same time (also, there were tons of other bigs that amassed large dunk totals - Alonzo, Hakeem, Otis Thorpe, Dale Davis) - otoh, in today's game, there are only 1 or 2 monster big man dunkers that can compare... The mid-late 90's happened to be a time period where there were an abnormally high number of high volume dunkers.

Also, in 1995, there were 6 wing players that amassed over 100 dunks (Pippen, Penny, Grant Hill, Stackhouse, Finley, Ceballos) - we don't have that many wing players today that amassed over 100 dunks.

But by 2000, the game had reached a peak level of physicality and lane congestion - teams were taking full advantage of allowable physicality and paint-camping.. Dunking went back down to 80's levels, and the league looked to make changes so offense was easier - they did this in 2005 by banning various physicality including hand-checking, as well as paint-camping... Not surprisingly, there was a material bump in dunking frequency in 2005, the first year of the new rules.

Less frequent dunks =/= tougher dunking enviroment