Better 3-Peat Peak - MJ or Shaq

[3ball]

.
REGULAR SEASON (91-93' vs. 00-02')

MJ..... 31.4 PPG, 58.2% TS, 122 ORtg, 0.288 WS/48, 3 All-Defense 1st Team, 2 MVP
Shaq.. 28.6 PPG, 58.0% TS, 115 ORtg, 0.264 WS/48, 2 All-Defense 2nd Team, 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ..... 33.7 PPG, 57.2% TS, 120 ORtg, 0.267 WS/48
Shaq.. 29.9 PPG, 56.2% TS, 113 ORtg, 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ...... 36.3 PPG, 52.6% FG, 84.3% FT, faced Magic, Drexler, Barkley
Shaq.,. 35.9 PPG, 59.5% FG, 50.6% FT, faced Miller, Iverson, Kidd


Shaq gets twice as many rebounds, but MJ gets twice as many assists and less turnovers.. So I didn't even bother list RPG or APG.

Same for steals and blocks - Shaq gets twice as many blocks but MJ gets 4 times as many steals.. Also, Shaq has higher FG%, but MJ's has much higher FT% - so I just used TS% and ORtg.

Finally, both players PERs in the RS and Playoffs were 30.
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why are you using team stats? ORtg and winshares don't adjust for teammates.

Anyway, the answer is Mike (wasn't this a thread already?)

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Shaq because **** you and your agenda.

[3ball]

Why are you using team stats? ORtg and winshares don't adjust for teammates.
ORtg is an individual stat as well - it measures points-per-possession (per 100 possessions), just like it would for a team, but for an individual.

Points-per-possession is the foremost efficiency measure.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

ORtg is an individual stat as well - it measures points-per-possession (per 100 possessions), just like it would for a team, but for an individual.

Points-per-possession is the foremost efficiency measure.
It doesn't adjust for teammates though. It's almost like using +/- (not RAPM) when trying to compare individual players.

If you aren't comparing teams, these adjusted metrics don't tell you much. Honestly.

[3ball]

It doesn't adjust for teammates though. It's almost like using +/- (not RAPM) when trying to compare individual players.

If you aren't comparing teams, they don't tell you much. Honestly.
Jordan scored significantly more points per possession than Shaq his entire career, regardless of their respective teammates, both of which changed several times.

Also, a player's ORtg doesn't normally change materially when they have different teammates - Shaq's ORtg in Los Angeles was the same as it was in Orlando.. Ditto for Jordan and most players over the course of his career - Jordan's style was simply more efficient.

Also, these guys were bigger focal points of their teams than anyone in history other than Wilt, so their teammates shouldn't matter anyway (Dirk and Hakeem dominated too, but they only did it 1 or 2 years, not for an entire career like MJ and Shaq).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan scored significantly more points per possession than Shaq his entire career, regardless of their respective teammates, both of which changed several times.

Also, a player's ORtg doesn't normally change materially when they have different teammates - Shaq's ORtg in Los Angeles was the same as it was in Orlando.. Ditto for Jordan and most players over the course of his career - Jordan's style was simply more efficient.

Also, these guys were bigger focal points of their teams than anyone in history other than Wilt, so their teammates shouldn't matter anyway (Dirk and Hakeem dominated too, but they only did it 1 or 2 years, not for an entire career like MJ and Shaq).

Jordan and Shaq's "ws48" and "ORtg" varied every season. In the playoffs especially. Not sure what you're talking about dude. :confusedshrug:

Regardless of that, it doesn't take away from the fact you're using team stats to compare individuals; a suboptimal way of ranking and comparing players.

[3ball]

Not sure what you're talking about dude.


I'm talking about how MJ scored far more points-per-possession (ORtg) and had significantly higher WS/48..

He also had higher scoring, better defensive accolades, and played superior competition (Magic/Drexler/Barkley > Miller/Iverson/Kidd).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm talking about how MJ scored far more points-per-possession (ORtg) and had significantly higher WS/48..

He also had higher scoring, better defensive accolades, and played superior competition (Magic/Drexler/Barkley > Miller/Iverson/Kidd).
I'm questioning how you use them and what they REALLY say (numerically).

We wanna know WHY you continuously use flawed metrics. :cheers:

[Jud]

Who cares. MJ is still the GOAT and peak Shaq is the most dominant player of all time.

[3ball]

I'm questioning how you use them and what they REALLY say (numerically).

We wanna know WHY you continuously use flawed metrics. :cheers:
They aren't flawed - ORtg is related to usage, and the higher usage you have (Jordan) the harder it is to maintain your ORtg... but yet MJ still have far higher ORtg than Shaq, despite having higher usage too.. goat
.

[Ray22]

Peak Shaq was a beast, but still MJ.

[Jacks3]

It doesn't adjust for teammates though. It's almost like using +/- (not RAPM) when trying to compare individual players.

If you aren't comparing teams, these adjusted metrics don't tell you much. Honestly.


Individual ORTG has nothing to do with your teammates. It's essentially just AST%+OREB%+TS%+TOV%. Jordan's ORTG are higher because he was the GOAT at taking care of the ball. What are you talking about dude?

:confusedshrug:

[warriorfan]

:rockon:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Individual ORTG has nothing to do with your teammates. It's essentially just AST%+OREB%+TS%+TOV%. Jordan's ORTG are higher because he was the GOAT at taking care of the ball. What are you talking about dude?

:confusedshrug:
Actually it does. Take scoring for example:


ScPoss = (FG_Part + AST_Part + FT_Part) * (1 - (Team_ORB / Team_Scoring_Poss) * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%) + ORB_Part

where:

FG_Part = FGM * (1 - 0.5 * ((PTS - FTM) / (2 * FGA)) * qAST)
qAST = ((MP / (Team_MP / 5)) * (1.14 * ((Team_AST - AST) / Team_FGM))) + ((((Team_AST / Team_MP) * MP * 5 - AST) / ((Team_FGM / Team_MP) * MP * 5 - FGM)) * (1 - (MP / (Team_MP / 5))))
AST_Part = 0.5 * (((Team_PTS - Team_FTM) - (PTS - FTM)) / (2 * (Team_FGA - FGA))) * AST
FT_Part = (1-(1-(FTM/FTA))^2)*0.4*FTA
Team_Scoring_Poss = Team_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Team_FTM / Team_FTA))^2) * Team_FTA * 0.4
Team_ORB_Weight = ((1 - Team_ORB%) * Team_Play%) / ((1 - Team_ORB%) * Team_Play% + Team_ORB% * (1 - Team_Play%))
Team_ORB% = Team_ORB / (Team_ORB + (Opponent_TRB - Opponent_ORB))
Team_Play% = Team_Scoring_Poss / (Team_FGA + Team_FTA * 0.4 + Team_TOV)
ORB_Part = ORB * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%

Missed FG and Missed FT Possessions are calculated as follows:

FGxPoss = (FGA - FGM) * (1 - 1.07 * Team_ORB%)
FTxPoss = ((1 - (FTM / FTA))^2) * 0.4 * FTA

Total Possessions are then computed like so:

TotPoss = ScPoss + FGxPoss + FTxPoss + TOV

You need all of this JUST to calculate individual points produced. Where exactly is the adjustment?

[3ball]

Actually it does. Take scoring for example:



You need all of this JUST to calculate individual points produced. Where exactly is the adjustment?
The creator of ORtg says it's harder to maintain ORtg the higher a player's usage is - Jordan had higher usage, so it's a credit to him that his ORtg is still higher:

"A player's ORtg needs to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient."

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html (scroll to bottom)

[ShawkFactory]

This thread was made literally yesterday

[Spurs5Rings2014]

The creator of ORtg says it's harder to maintain ORtg the higher a player's usage is - Jordan had higher usage, so it's a credit to him that his ORtg is still higher:

"A player's ORtg needs to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient."

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html (scroll to bottom)

Why did you edit this out of your previous post then post it here? If you have to conserve your ammo, perhaps you're running a little low.

:confusedshrug:

[Kvnzhangyay]

Why did you edit this out of your previous post then post it here? If you have to conserve your ammo, perhaps you're running a little low.

:confusedshrug:

He has very little argument for every thread he makes- he gets outdebated in practically every thread

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Why did you edit this out of your previous post then post it here? If you have to conserve your ammo, perhaps you're running a little low.

:confusedshrug:

He does this shit all the time. Copy+pastes his own crap/deletes and then re-posts the same shit to bump his threads.

[3ball]

This thread was made literally yesterday
No, you're thinking of the thread about 33-35 year-old MJ vs. 28-29 year old Lebron - it showed that MJ's 96-98' playoff averages were better than 13-14' Lebron's: 31.4 PPG on 46% > 26.5 PPG on 49%.

96'-98 MJ also had better Finals numbers than 13-14' Lebron: 31.1 PPG and 3 FMVPs to 26.6 PPG and worthless, stat-padding defeat.
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The creator of ORtg says it's harder to maintain ORtg the higher a player's usage is - Jordan had higher usage, so it's a credit to him that his ORtg is still higher:

"A player's ORtg needs to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient."

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html (scroll to bottom)
3ball,

The definition and degree of difficulty to maintain a "high ORtg" has nothing to do with its inability to adjust for teammates. Hence the flaw.

Please keep up.

[3ball]

3ball,

The definition and degree of difficulty to maintain a "high ORtg" has nothing to do with its inability to adjust for teammates. Hence the flaw.


It didn't matter what teammates Shaq had or how much lower his usage was - over the course of his 20-year career, his ORtg was consistently lower than MJ's by a significant margin.

Shaq's PPG, WS/48, and defensive accolades were also lower than MJ's, along with the level of competition he faced to accomplish his 3-peat (Miller/Iverson/Kidd < Magic/Drexler/Barkley).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It didn't matter what teammates Shaq had or how much lower his usage was - over the course of his 20-year career, his ORtg was consistently lower than MJ's by a significant margin.

Shaq's PPG, WS/48, and defensive accolades were also lower than MJ's, along with the level of competition he faced to accomplish his 3-peat (Miller/Iverson/Kidd < Magic/Drexler/Barkley).
And again, how is that if the metric itself uses team numbers to makeup an estimated calculation? The same applies to winshares.

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

how is that


How is it the teammates didn't matter?

Because regardless of what teammates Shaq had - and he had many different combinations of them - his ORtg was always much lower than MJ's.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How is it the teammates didn't matter?

Because regardless of what teammates he had - and he had many different combinations of them - his ORtg was always much lower than MJ's.
That just proves my point though. Matter of fact, I had originally said Shaq averaged various ORtg's every season. This isn't a surprise because its heavily dependent on teammates, good or bad.

You could argue MJ's offense is better than Shaq's in a myriad of ways. Why go the fallacious route?

[ShawkFactory]

No, you're thinking of the thread about 33-35 year-old MJ vs. 28-29 year old Lebron - it showed that MJ's 96-98' playoff averages were better than 13-14' Lebron's: 31.4 PPG on 46% > 26.5 PPG on 49%.

96'-98 MJ also had better Finals numbers than 13-14' Lebron: 31.1 PPG and 3 FMVPs to 26.6 PPG and worthless, stat-padding defeat.
.
Nope. I'm thinking of peak 3-peat Shaq vs 1st 3-peat Jordan. Or more specifically 00-02 Shaq vs 90-93 jordy.

As far as that goes I'd take Jordan ultimately. First 3 quarters Shaq would be more dominant but Jordan could close. Idk if there's ever been someone more dominant in the first 3 and a half quarters than Shaq but his flaw is that he needed someone to close. Enter kobe. Jordan didn't need anyone in certain parts of the game.

So yea. You just wasted your time with that Lebron talk :lol

[3ball]

That just proves my point though. Matter of fact, I had originally said Shaq averaged various ORtg's every season. This isn't a surprise because its heavily dependent on teammates, good or bad.

You could argue MJ's offense is better than Shaq's in a myriad of ways. Why go the fallacious route?
So when discussing how MJ had better offense, it's a fallacious to point out the statistical fact that his offensive rating was much higher?

gtfo dude, ur too much.. :roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So when discussing how MJ had better offense, it's a fallacious to point out the statistical fact that his offensive rating was much higher?

gtfo dude, ur too much.. :roll:
Its a flawed way to compare a players offense. Raw PPG; their skillsets (midrange, jumpshot, finishing ability, 3PT shooting); the huge gap in playmaking; the similar efficiency despite Shaq being closer to the basket.. As I said, a number of ways you could go about arguing Jordan over Shaq.

Using ORtg and winshares, "advanced stats" that were originally used in team variables, is shortsided and in the end, tells you nothing.

Talk basketball or don't talk at all. :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Raw PPG; their skillsets (midrange, jumpshot, finishing ability, 3PT shooting); the huge gap in playmaking; the similar efficiency despite Shaq being closer to the basket.. As I said, a number of ways you could go about arguing Jordan over Shaq.


We have a big sample size (20 years of Shaq's career) with many different teammate combinations - it's clear that MJ scores more points-per-possession than Shaq, regardless of teammates.

Like another poster said earlier itt.. What the hell is wrong with you dude?

Also, Jordan's usage is higher, yet he still scores more points-per-possession (ORtg).. That's a testament to his superiority.

Infact, in the entire NBA history, NO ONE has a higher ORtg + Usage combination than MJ.. MJ simply gave his team more (usage)... of a good thing (ORtg)... than any player in history.. :confusedshrug:

[ShawkFactory]

So when discussing how MJ had better offense, it's a fallacious to point out the statistical fact that his offensive rating was much higher?

gtfo dude, ur too much.. :roll:
If offensive rating is the key then peak Nash=peak Jordan.

[3ball]

If offensive rating is the key then peak Nash=peak Jordan.


It's one aspect that should be looked at along with many other factors - the OP considers variety of factors.

But Nash wouldn't compare to MJ anyway - Nash's usage was 21.0% compared to 35% for Jordan, so he didn't have nearly the offensive role MJ had..

Despite carrying a much bigger offensive role, MJ's regular season ORtg was 118 just like Nash, and MJ's playoff ORtg was 120, higher than Nash's 116.

Infact, in the entire NBA history, NO ONE has a higher ORtg + Usage combination than MJ.. MJ simply gave his team more (usage)... of a good thing (ORtg)... than any player in history.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

We have a big sample size (20 years of Shaq's career) with many different teammate combinations - it's clear that MJ scores more points-per-possession than Shaq, regardless of teammates.

Like another poster said earlier itt.. What the hell is wrong with you dude?

Also, Jordan's usage is higher, yet he still scores more points-per-possession (ORtg).. That's a testament to his superiority.

Infact, in the entire NBA history, NO ONE has a higher ORtg + Usage combination than MJ.. MJ simply gave his team more (usage)... of a good thing (ORtg)... than any player in history.. :confusedshrug:
Points per possession =/= ORtg.

They're not the same stat, 3ball. Again, I don't care that Jordan's "usage" is higher or what his "PPP" says. Not what we're discussing. We're talking about the inherent flaw in individual ORtg, and why you, for whatever reason, think it has any more relevancy than +/-.

[TheMan]

Can't go wrong with either but I'll take MJ, a game might come to who makes their FTs.

[Jacks3]

Actually it does. Take scoring for example:



You need all of this JUST to calculate individual points produced. Where exactly is the adjustment?

Points Produced=(FG Part + AST Part + FT Part) x (1- (TMOR

[Prometheus]

Jordan

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jacks,

I agree that individual DRtg is terrible (cringe when people use this to make their Player A > Player B on defense arguments). Ditto to ORtg needing applicable context.

But to say it doesn't rely on teammates? Not accurate. It uses value estimates based on team (mainly assists and offensive rebounds). IIRC, someone over at APBRmetrics, the website 'fpliii' posts at, extrapolated individual, raw stats from pbp (play-by-play), and it changed the ratings for TONS of players.

I would say its useful, but only with people not purposely misinterpreting what it does (3ball).

[3ball]

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Points Produced=(FG Part + AST Part + FT Part) x (1- (TMOR

[oarabbus]

Jordans was better but If Shaq and Jordan entered the league at the same time Jordan would have had 2 rings tops

[AintNoSunshine]

Shaq by a country mile. Jordan = poor man's Kobe (Shaq's side kick)

Lebron = Shaq >>>> Jordan > Kobe

[Mr Feeny]

Shaq by a country mile. Jordan = poor man's Kobe (Shaq's side kick)

Lebron = Shaq >>>> Jordan > Kobe

Ahaa. Do go on.

[Prometheus]

Shaq by a country mile. Jordan = poor man's Kobe (Shaq's side kick)

Lebron = Shaq >>>> Jordan > Kobe

"Jordan = poor man's Kobe"
"Jordan > Kobe"

:facepalm

[Mr Feeny]

"Jordan = poor man's Kobe"
"Jordan > Kobe"

:facepalmHe's an idiot...

[RepMe]

MJ by a hair. Shaq's was better than MJ's 2nd theepeat.

[RepMe]

Shaq by a country mile. Jordan = poor man's Kobe (Shaq's side kick)

Lebron = Shaq >>>> Jordan > Kobe

What a dumbass.

[Mr Feeny]

MJ by a hair. Shaq's was better than MJ's 2nd theepeat.This is about right.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan. Because of defense, and clutch ability. Also the dramatic difference in offensive production compared to his next best player. Where as Kobe in 2001, and 2002 was carrying some major burdens offensively or in the clutch.

[Mr Feeny]

Jordan. Because of defense, and clutch ability. Also the dramatic difference in offensive production compared to his next best player. Where as Kobe in 2001, and 2002 was carrying some major burdens offensively or in the clutch.

Shaq was averaging 38 and 18. Not even MJ did that. Big men, in general, have more of an impact than perimeter players. But MJ was so transcendent that you might be right in thus case.
31.5 ppg, 11.5 ppg, and 6.5 rpg on 54%fg against the Lakers was the stuff of fantasy.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Shaq was averaging 38 and 18.
MJ was averaging 32 ppg and 11 apg. Not even Shad did that.


Not even MJ did that. Big men, in general, have more of an impact than perimeter players.
Not in this case. And Shaq was a liability at times defensively, or late in games. Jordan was not.

Plus like I said Kobe was important to that team creating at the end of games. Kobe was putting up near 30 ppg himself.


But MJ was so transcendent that you might be right in thus case.
31.5 ppg, 11.5 ppg, and 6.5 rpg on 54%fg against the Lakers was the stuff of fantasy.
What are you arguing? You just said MJ was better ... Which I said as well.

[Mr Feeny]

MJ was averaging 31 ppg and 11 apg. Not even Shad did that.


Not in this case. And Shaq was a liability at times defensively, or late in games. Jordan was not.

Plus like I said Kobe was important to that team creating at the end of games. Kobe was putting up near 30 ppg himself.


What are you arguing? You just said MJ was better ... Which I said as well.

Pipe down, mate. We're having a discussion. Nobody is arguing here.

And Kobe definitely wasn't averaging 30 in most of those was he?
15 ppg on 36%fg shooting in 2000 and 22, 2, 2 on 38%fg against Detroit are hardly helping Shaq with the burden.

If that'd the case, then Pippen helped MJ more in 91-96. Which destroys your argument.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pipe down, mate. We're having a discussion. Nobody is arguing here.

Dealing with a real mind here ...


If that'd the case, then Pippen helped MJ more in 91-96. Which destroys your argument.
And no, Pippen didn't provide the level of help Kobe did from 2001 - 2004.

My argument? We are arguing now? You agreed with me that MJ's '91 - '93 > Shaq's 2000 - 2002.

:facepalm


And Kobe definitely wasn't averaging 30 in most of those was he?
15 ppg on 36%fg shooting in 2000 and 22, 2, 2 on 38%fg against Detroit are hardly helping Shaq with the burden.
You just hand picked two series, one of which he was injured. Moot because I said in 2001, and 2002 Kobe was far beyond production wise a mere sidekick.

The gap between Shaq and Kobe offensively was less than the difference between MJ and Pippen.

[Mr Feeny]

Dealing with a real mind here ...


And no, Pippen didn't provide the level of help Kobe did from 2001 - 2004.

My argument? We are arguing now? You agreed with me that MJ's '91 - '93 > Shaq's 2000 - 2002.

:facepalm


You just hand picked two series, one of which he was injured. Moot because I said in 2001, and 2002 Kobe was far beyond production wise a mere sidekick.

The gap between Shaq and Kobe offensively was less than the difference between MJ and Pippen.


Ah! A real genius here. Ok let's do this:

Pippen during the entire run blew Jordan out of the park defensively and carried the Bulls on that end of the court. Shaq didn't need anyone to do that. He was the most dominant force defensively for his team.

Likewise, you just picked two seasons and ignored the others for your own agenda. Great stuff Einstein:applause:

We can do this all night. I doubt you watched a single Bulls game of that first run so I have no idea why you're pretending to have a clue what you're talking about.

MJ wet the bed against Magic defensively in 91 and the Bulls were trailing in the series until Pippen did what MJ could not and that was lock up Magic.

In 96,97, and 98 the majority of he Bulls role players claim Pippen was more integral to the team functioning and that he was the floor leader. Pick up Halberstam ' s "playing for Keeps" or "Blood on the horns" or "Mind Games".

Go read a bit and buy yourself a clue. Better yet, go watch a full bulls game. You're way out of your depth and I or pretty much anyone else here can chew you out all night long. Do some reading and then come back on this board.

[3ball]

MJ wet the bed against Magic defensively in 91 and the Bulls were trailing in the series until Pippen did what MJ could not and that was lock up Magic.


False - Scottie guarded Magic for the 2nd quarter in Game 2, and the 2nd quarter of Game 3 - THAT'S IT - those were the only times Scottie guarded Magic the entire series.

Here are all 5 games:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWhxdhU9KSI
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVX0D6K12v8
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SRq4eAafIU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV7kewDeHPU
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrfuqseL1lg

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pippen during the entire run blew Jordan out of the park defensively and carried the Bulls on that end of the court.
Extreme over exaggeration.

MJ was every bit as good, if not better defensively in the first three peat. Still great in 2nd three peat, but conserved his much needed energy to carry Pippen's putrid offensive woes.

The gap between MJ and Pip defensively is smaller than the ocean difference offensively. In the first three peat or second.


Shaq didn't need anyone to do that. He was the most dominant force defensively for his team.
Liability on pick and rolls. It's not difficult to conserve yourself when you're guarding old Rick Smits, old Dikembe Mutombo, and Todd MacColluch. None of which are even remotely legit offensive weapons.

Meanwhile, Kobe:

29 ppg, 7 rpg, 6 apg w/ elite defense
27 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg w/ elite defense


MJ wet the bed against Magic defensively in 91
False. MJ defended him well but got in foul trouble one game, and PJ switched Pip onto him, but still defended him for multiple stretches through out the remainder of the series, limiting Magic's efficiency and freedom ... while also shouldering the burden of being LEAPS AND BOUNDS Chicago's best offensive option.

More proof you are just spitting hyperbole, myths, and passages from books. You didn't watch any of that series.


Go read a bit and buy yourself a clue. Better yet, go watch a full bulls game. You're way out of your depth and I or pretty much anyone else here can chew you out all night long. Do some reading and then come back on this board.
Go to bed mehyaM24, it's past your bed time. We all know you never watched any of the Bulls dynasty live.

Plus ...


MJ by a hair. Shaq's was better than MJ's 2nd theepeat.

This is about right.

:facepalm @ your flip flopping. Back to my point, what are your arguing? Or are you just on your rag?

[Mr Feeny]

False - Scottie guarded Magic for the 2nd quarter in Game 2, and the 2nd quarter of Game 3 - THAT'S IT - those were the only times Scottie guarded Magic the entire series.

Here are all 5 games:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWhxdhU9KSI
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVX0D6K12v8
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SRq4eAafIU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV7kewDeHPU
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrfuqseL1lgI have all 5 games on dvd. I can recall most of the plays on the top of my head, and the commentary on it. I've watched this series (games 2 and 5 and the overtime period of game 3 more times than I can remember). Trust me, Jordan switched to Divac quite a few times and Pippen picked up Magic.
Phil Jackson, Tex Winter, and Johnny Bach have said this multiple times as well.

[Mr Feeny]

Extreme over exaggeration.

MJ was every bit as good, if not better defensively in the first three peat. Still great in 2nd three peat, but conserved his much needed energy to carry Pippen's putrid offensive woes.

The gap between MJ and Pip defensively is smaller than the ocean difference offensively. In the first three peat or second.


Liability on pick and rolls. It's not difficult to conserve yourself when you're guarding old Rick Smits, old Dikembe Mutombo, and Todd MacColluch. None of which are even remotely legit offensive weapons.

Meanwhile, Kobe:

29 ppg, 7 rpg, 6 apg w/ elite defense
27 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg w/ elite defense


False. MJ defended him well but got in foul trouble one game, and PJ switched Pip onto him, but still defended him for multiple stretches through out the remainder of the series, limiting Magic's efficiency and freedom ... while also shouldering the burden of being LEAPS AND BOUNDS Chicago's best offensive option.

More proof you are just spitting hyperbole, myths, and passages from books. You didn't watch any of that series.


Go to bed mehyaM24, it's past your bed time. We all know you never watched any of the Bulls dynasty live.

Plus ...




:facepalm @ your flip flopping. Back to my point, what are your arguing? Or are you just on your rag?

How old are you?
You know more than Phil Jackson it seems because he himself says that Pippen guarded Magic.

Why are you sticking to those two series specifically?

MJ was equal to Pippen defensively? are you trying to embarass yourself now?

Meya? It's the oldest trick in the book isn't it? Whenever you're clueless, resort to accusing people of being alts. Here's a hint numbnuts. Some of us actually have lives and don't have time for alts on here unlike you. You utter waste of space.

Go read a book. You're out of your depth, kid.

[3ball]

I have all 5 games on dvd. I can recall most of the plays on the top of my head, and the commentary on it.


I re-posted each game from the 1991 Finals below where the links WORK this time:


Game 1 - Jordan guarded Magic all game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK4dUGvF9ag


Game 2 - Scottie guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxYFDY3AdMg


Game 3 - Scottie guarded Magic for the 2nd quarter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQnF1w7ltTo


Game 4 - Scottie guarded Magic for the last 5 minutes of game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up9PED-z7kk


Game 5 - Jordan guarded Magic all game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zde6BJTayFM


For MOST of the series, MJ guarded Magic - Scottie only guarded him for 4.5 out of the 20 quarters played in the series.. Pippen's defense was key to throw the Lakers off, but MJ still guarded Magic for most of the series - the games are right there for you to refresh your memory.

[Mr Feeny]

I re-posted each game from the 1991 Finals below where the links WORK this time:


Game 1 - Jordan guarded Magic all game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK4dUGvF9ag


Game 2 - Scottie guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxYFDY3AdMg


Game 3 - Scottie guarded Magic for the 2nd quarter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQnF1w7ltTo


Game 4 - Scottie guarded Magic for the last 5 minutes of game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up9PED-z7kk


Game 5 - Jordan guarded Magic all game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zde6BJTayFM


For MOST of the series, MJ guarded Magic - Scottie only guarded him for 4.5 out of the 20 quarters played in the series.. Pippen's defense was key to throw the Lakers off, but MJ still guarded Magic for most of the series - the games are right there for you to refresh your memory.

I appreciate your links and your respectful tone. We can agree to disagree here. I vividly remember Pippen on Magic for be majority of it and actually laughed out loud a few times seeing Divac against Jordan who harassed him before he had a chance to put the ball on the floor. Divac looked nervous several times and I remember thinking it might have been a stroke of genius to put Jordan on him. Made no sense but somehow, it worked if only because of the ludicrous nature of it. Dunleavy looked confused on the bench.

Offensively, we have no disagreement here. Jordan was supreme and it was one of the greatest performances in NBA history in a finals series.

[juju151111]

I have all 5 games on dvd. I can recall most of the plays on the top of my head, and the commentary on it. I've watched this series (games 2 and 5 and the overtime period of game 3 more times than I can remember). Trust me, Jordan switched to Divac quite a few times and Pippen picked up Magic.
Phil Jackson, Tex Winter, and Johnny Bach have said this multiple times as well.
MJ guarded Magic the majority of the series not Pippen.

[juju151111]

I appreciate your links and your respectful tone. We can agree to disagree here. I vividly remember Pippen on Magic for be majority of it and actually laughed out loud a few times seeing Divac against Jordan who harassed him before he had a chance to put the ball on the floor. Divac looked nervous several times and I remember thinking it might have been a stroke of genius to put Jordan on him. Made no sense but somehow, it worked if only because of the ludicrous nature of it. Dunleavy looked confused on the bench.

Offensively, we have no disagreement here. Jordan was supreme and it was one of the greatest performances in NBA history in a finals series.
It's not a disagreement. You are flat out wrong.

[AintNoSunshine]

He's an idiot...
So are you, for even entering a 3ball thread.:facepalm

[Mr Feeny]

It's not a disagreement. You are flat out wrong.I think you lack comprehension skills. You basically corroborated my stance. Go back and read through the thread.

This is just embarassing .

[KOBE143]

Both benefited playing alongside GOAT players.. Pippen, GOAT perimeter defender.. Kobe, GOAT player if not one of the top 5 GOAT.. Shaq and MJ were career loser before Kobe and Pippen came to their respective team.. But I think Shaq benefited more.. MJ was already a good player with a lot of potentials before Pippen while Shaq was just an average center in the 90s before Kobe.. Kobe and Pippen made Shaq and MJ into an all time great players.. Pippen made MJ a champion while Kobe made Shaq the Most Dominant Ever.. I think having Kobe as teammates outweighs what Pippen has done to MJ..

So I choose MJ by hair..

[3ball]

.
Here's links to all 5 games of 1991 Finals, so anyone can spend 2-3 mins going through each game to verify who guarded who - here are the verifiable FACTS:


Game 1 - Jordan guarded Magic all game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK4dUGvF9ag


Game 2 - Scottie guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxYFDY3AdMg


Game 3 - Scottie guarded Magic for the 2nd quarter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQnF1w7ltTo


Game 4 - Scottie guarded Magic for the last 5 minutes of game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up9PED-z7kk


Game 5 - Jordan guarded Magic all game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zde6BJTayFM


For MOST of the series, MJ guarded Magic - Scottie only guarded him for 4.5 out of the 20 quarters played in the series - all the games are right there - i implore everyone to verify.
.