Now that Kobe is nearly out of the league, how does he rank all time objectively?

[Derivative]

Now that Kobe's nearly gone from the league, all most of his insane stans dispersed. How do you rank Kobe all time? I have the following players higher or going to be higher than Kobe all time later on.

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Kareem Abduljabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal

Kobe Bryant


I think 9th all time is a good rank for Kobe.

[ZeN]

MJ
KAJ
Bird
Magic
Russell
Wilt
Duncan
Kobe
Shaq
West

[zay_24]

If we going by actual skill and ability Kobe is the GOAT and its honestly not close

[Cocaine80s]

Probably somewhere from #8-10


Lebron pushes Kobe closer to 10 or possibly out of the top 10 if he wins this year though

[T_L_P]

If we going by actual skill and ability Kobe is the GOAT and its honestly not close

Both completely meaningless unless you can put it all together in the form of on-court impact.

And Kobe's on-court impact doesn't come close to GOAT.

[raprap]

Tied with shaq @ #8

[RoundMoundOfReb]

11-15 range

[miles berg]

Top 13.

[Bosnian Sajo]

He ranked higher than Lebron, at least till James wins another title or two (which he wont). I don't see a reason for him being ranked under Shaq, either. Not saying Shaq isn't top 10 alltime, but Kobe has accomplished more and has been the closest thing to MJ since MJ.

[TaLvsCuaL]

I don't like ranking lists but He is one of the best ever in my opinion.

[PsychoBe]

stop 5-staring your own thread

[Derivative]

If we going by actual skill and ability Kobe is the GOAT and its honestly not close

MJ >
Bird >
Nash >
Curry >





Lebron >

[Genaro]

7th all time for me.

[Cold soul]

6-9 is a great rank for Kobe and were most put him. I personally have him 6th.

[HOoopCityJones]

number 7 all time.

[Trollsmasher]

11th at best

[PhutureDynasty]

I have him at 9.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Tim Duncan
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem Olajuwon / LeBron James (can't decide who deserves the 10 spot)

[bballnoob1192]

jordan
kareem
russell
magic
wilt
kobe
duncan
bird
shaq
lebron
hakeem

IMO.

[Smoke117]

12-15

[r0drig0lac]

1- MJ
2- Bill
3- KAJ
4- Wilt
5- Duncan
6- Bird
7- Magic
8- Shaq
9- Kobe
10- Lebron

[nzahir]

I have him at 9.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Tim Duncan
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem Olajuwon / LeBron James (can't decide who deserves the 10 spot)
:facepalm
PEOPLE HAVE TO STOP OVERRATING BILL RUSSEL. He is a modern day ben wallace im sorry to tell you this. Wilt is pretty overrated too but his numbers are so crazy that he can be a lower part of the top 10.

Kobe at 9 for me

[PhutureDynasty]

:facepalm
PEOPLE HAVE TO STOP OVERRATING BILL RUSSEL. He is a modern day ben wallace im sorry to tell you this. Wilt is pretty overrated too but his numbers are so crazy that he can be a lower part of the top 10.

Kobe at 9 for me
If he was a modern day Ben Wallace then how come no other players dominated like him during his era (short of Wilt)?

11 championship rings on potential GOAT-level post defense. Good enough for 2nd all time in my opinion.

[greatest-ever]

11-12th.

[Cold soul]

Man so many people had Kobe ranked so much higher after his fifth championship in 2010 he's so disrespected now...

[Prometheus]

Top ten, but not top five.

Still ahead of LeBron. For now.

[PhutureDynasty]

I don't see an argument for him being outside the top 10.

Name 10 better players than Kobe?

I can only name 8 at the moment (LeBron MIGHT jump him).

[Akrazotile]

Based on court impact hes genuinely not any better than Robinson, Stockton, Oscar, West, KG and a bunch of other dudes.

His game is aesthetic and hes been surrounded by expensive teams with great rosters, resulting in the gullible public being sold some mythical "ultimate champion" bc of the titles. :oldlol: Did Derek Fischer not win a chip every year Kobe did? It was the LAKERS winning those titles, not Kobe.

Dude is terrible in the playoff clutch and has games so bad he singlehandedly loses for his team. How many top 10 guys can say that?

Hes not a top 20 impact guy. Thats a fact.

[the mesiah]

I got him 6-8 range rite now,.

[ArbitraryWater]

10-15 is a great place for him.

[HOoopCityJones]

10-15 is a great place for him.

Who's in front him? Let's see how full of shit you really are.

[Marchesk]

There is no such thing as an objective ranking.

[imnew09]

Rank 1 because I just found out that MJ uses HGH :facepalm

[COnDEMnED]

Top 10. Higher than Lebron.

Deal With it

[JohnFreeman]

Top 12

[dreamwarrior]

1. Wilt Chamberlain
He could've easily played 3 more years if he wanted to. Unlike Shaq and Jabbar Wilt was a beast until his last days, leading the league in rebounds.

2. Michael Jordan

3. Magic Johnson

4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar

5. Tim Duncan

6. Bill Russel

7. Oscar Robertson

8. Jerry West

9. Larry Bird

10. Karl Malone

11. Hakeem Olajuwon

12. Shaq

13. Kobe Bryant

14. Patrick Ewing

15. John Stockton

16. Steve Nash

17. Isiah Thomas

18. Julius Erving

19. David Robinson

20. Robert Horry

21. Ray Allen

22. Dwayne Wade

23. Lebron James

[Relinquish]

Man so many people had Kobe ranked so much higher after his fifth championship in 2010 he's so disrespected now...

Not really, it's just that the amount of Kobetards was at an all-time high back then. He's ranked now around the same as he was then.

[Cold soul]

Not really, it's just that the amount of Kobetards was at an all-time high back then. He's ranked now around the same as he was then.

I disagree people live in world what have you done for me lately heck basketball experts, GM's, HC, former players past and current rank Kobe higher than majority of basketball community majority say he's top five all-time and I don't even agree with that.

[LAZERUSS]

Anywhere from 8th to 13th...

Kobe
Lebron
Bird
Dr. J
Moses
Hakeem

[Deuce Bigalow]

Easily higher than Wilt.

[TheMan]

I don't like ranking lists but He is one of the best ever in my opinion.
This

[ShawkFactory]

Anywhere from 5-9. I personally have him 8. He's basically in the tier with bird, magic, duncan, and Shaq.

But I think everyone besides Shaq has a slightly stronger argument. Very slightly but an argument nonetheless.

[ShawkFactory]

1. Wilt Chamberlain
He could've easily played 3 more years if he wanted to. Unlike Shaq and Jabbar Wilt was a beast until his last days, leading the league in rebounds.

2. Michael Jordan

3. Magic Johnson

4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar

5. Tim Duncan

6. Bill Russel

7. Oscar Robertson

8. Jerry West

9. Larry Bird

10. Karl Malone

11. Hakeem Olajuwon

12. Shaq

13. Kobe Bryant

14. Patrick Ewing

15. John Stockton

16. Steve Nash

17. Isiah Thomas

18. Julius Erving

19. David Robinson

20. Robert Horry

21. Ray Allen

22. Dwayne Wade

23. Lebron James
Lol *** outta here

[andgar923]

Bron is already above him imo.

I'd put him top 15 range, just outside top 10.

[ArbitraryWater]

I disagree people live in world what have you done for me lately heck basketball experts, GM's, HC, former players past and current rank Kobe higher than majority of basketball community majority say he's top five all-time and I don't even agree with that.

stop

[Imtheman]

1. Wilt Chamberlain
He could've easily played 3 more years if he wanted to. Unlike Shaq and Jabbar Wilt was a beast until his last days, leading the league in rebounds.

2. Michael Jordan

3. Magic Johnson

4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar

5. Tim Duncan

6. Bill Russel

7. Oscar Robertson

8. Jerry West

9. Larry Bird

10. Karl Malone

11. Hakeem Olajuwon

12. Shaq

13. Kobe Bryant

14. Patrick Ewing

15. John Stockton

16. Steve Nash

17. Isiah Thomas

18. Julius Erving

19. David Robinson

20. Robert Horry

21. Ray Allen

22. Dwayne Wade

23. Lebron James
:facepalm

[Ne 1]

Tier 1 (Strong GOAT candidates): Kareem, Jordan, Russell, Wilt. Tier 2 (Weak GOAT candidates): Bird, Shaq, Magic. Tier 3: (Top 5 at best/Top 10 at worst): Kobe, Duncan, Olajuwon. Tier 4 (weak/borderline Top 10 candidates) Moses, LeBron, West, Dr. J. Tier 5 (Next in line) (Dirk, KG, Baylor, Oscar, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Pippen, Wade)

[Imtheman]

Tier 1 (Strong GOAT candidates): Kareem, Jordan, Russell, Wilt. Tier 2 (Weak GOAT candidates): Bird, Shaq, Magic. Tier 3: (Top 5 at best/Top 10 at worst): Kobe, Duncan, Olajuwon. Tier 4 (weak/borderline Top 10 candidates) Moses, LeBron, West, Dr. J. Tier 5 (Next in line) (Dirk, KG, Baylor, Oscar, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Pippen, Wade)
Bird isnt better than Kobe

[Cold soul]

Bird isnt better than Kobe

I'm not sure how people rank Bird above Kobe as players at their best are in same tier and Kobe has much greater longevity on his side.

[PsychoBe]

this nikka said that wilt was the goat and put oscar in the top 10 :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Rojogaqu11]

In order of era:

GOAT level: Wilt-Jabbar-Jordan
Legendary level: Russell-Bird-Magic-Shaq-Kobe-Duncan-Lebron
Alpha level: West-Oscar-Moses-Olajuwon-Garnett-Dirk-Wade
Superstar level: Baylor-Erving-Thomas-Stockton-Barkley-Malone-Robinson-Pippen-Nash-Durant

[LAZERUSS]

this nikka said that wilt was the goat and put oscar in the top 10 :roll: :roll: :roll:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

at someone who laughs at someone who has Wilt as the GOAT and Oscar in their Top-10.

[PhutureDynasty]

I'll ask again because I am legitimately curious...

To those who have Kobe outside the top 10, name 10 players greater than Kobe.

I have him at 9 on my personal list.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Maybe 11th, 12th for me. I don't remember the last time I thought about my personal rankings outside the top-10 but he's definitely between 11 and 15.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. Magic
8. Bird
9. Olajuwon
10. LeBron

Kobe, Oscar, Jerry West are in that 11-13 range for me personally, not sure how I'd rank them right now.

[PhutureDynasty]

Maybe 11th, 12th for me. I don't remember the last time I thought about my personal rankings outside the top-10 but he's definitely between 11 and 15.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. Magic
8. Bird
9. Olajuwon
10. LeBron

Kobe, Oscar, Jerry West are in that 11-13 range for me personally, not sure how I'd rank them right now.
Not trolling, legitimately curious as to how one can rank Hakeem above Kobe.

Kobe has an equal number of FMVPs, an equal number of MVPs, but most importantly he has more rings. Those 3 glorified 2nd option rings give him the definitive edge for me.

[KOBE143]

Anywhere below 5 is not objective

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Not trolling, legitimately curious as to how one can rank Hakeem above Kobe.

Because he thinks that Hakeem was simply better at basketball (which is a 100% reasonable opinion. In fact I bet Hakeem gets taken well ahead of Kobe in an all time draft for most)? There isn't some set criteria you have to rank by - what being the "greatest" means is largely subjective.

[funnystuff]

I have him at 11

[PhutureDynasty]

Because he thinks that Hakeem was simply better at basketball (which is a 100% reasonable opinion. In fact I bet Hakeem gets taken well ahead of Kobe in an all time draft for most)? There isn't some set criteria you have to rank by - what being the "greatest" means is largely subjective.
I agree with you for the most part but I want to hear an argument for Hakeem besides that he'd likely get taken ahead of Kobe in an all-time draft. He's a better basketball player, that can be argued, but why is he better? If people simply judged by where they'd be drafted in an all-time draft then people would likely have Shaq ahead of Kareem because he'd probably get drafted first, at least in my eyes.

Being better doesn't necessarily equate to being greater.

[Lebron23]

Lebron already surpassed him. I think he's the tenth best player of all time.

[KingLeBronJames]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Bill Russell
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

[pastis]

top12-15. i rank him 12 or 13

[Lebron23]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Bill Russell
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon


Wrong account son. You have been busted. You have a low iq just like Kobe Bryant. With that skills and athletic ability he could have been more than a 1x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP.

[Mr Feeny]

Who's in front him? Let's see how full of shit you really are.

Why is A.W. A piece of shit for not thinking Kobe is a top ten player all time?

There are atleast 10 players that most would agree are ahead of Kobe on the all time list:

1 - Jordan
2- Kareem
3- Russell
4- Wilt
5- Magic
6 - Bird
7- Duncan
8- Shaq
9 - Lebron
10 - Hakeem

Take a chill pill, you utter tosser.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I agree with you for the most part but I want to hear an argument for Hakeem besides that he'd likely get taken ahead of Kobe in an all-time draft. He's a better basketball player, that can be argued, but why is he better? If people simply judged by where they'd be drafted in an all-time draft then people would likely have Shaq ahead of Kareem because he'd probably get drafted first, at least in my eyes.

Being better doesn't necessarily equate to being greater.

I personally have Shaq in my top 5, so i can't speak for other people. I have Kareem higher (at #2/#3). Even thought i think Peak Shaq is probably the greatest peak in NBA history, I have Kareem higher do to superior, arguably the best, longevity and a comparable peak.

I would also take Kareem over Shaq in all time draft (barely).

But you're right in that it doesn't ALWAYS come down to who's "better", even for me. For instance i have Bill Russell #2/#3 due to his contributions to the game. ie being a pioneer - especially on defense. I don't think many actually think Bill Russell is better than a lot of people i have him ranked over.

But with Kobe and Hakeem - you got 2 guys that played in a similar era so that aspect is pretty much out the window. Basically if you told me that i could have Hakeem for his career (by career i mean the level they played at not their accomplishments) or Kobe for his - I'd take Hakeem.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

If I had to do a list:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Tim Duncan
7. Larry Bird
8. Magic Johnson
9. LeBron James
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

[Mr Feeny]

If I had to do a list:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Tim Duncan
7. Larry Bird
8. Magic Johnson
9. LeBron James
10. Hakeem OlajuwonThat's really close to mine in terms of order. And most people do agree on these 10 players in particular but disagree on the order.

[coin24]

Mj
Kaj
Russell
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Wilt

Wilt is the only beta role player to make my list, and he gets booted off as soon as someone else steps up..
Anyone who ranks LeBald higher than these 10 is a legit retard

[KingLeBronJames]

Wrong account son. You have been busted. You have a low iq just like Kobe Bryant. With that skills and athletic ability he could have been more than a 1x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP.
Why you mad, bro?

[PhutureDynasty]

I personally have Shaq in my top 5, so i can't speak for other people. I have Kareem higher (at #2/#3). Even thought i think Peak Shaq is probably the greatest peak in NBA history, I have Kareem higher do to superior, arguably the best, longevity and a comparable peak.

I would also take Kareem over Shaq in all time draft (barely).

But you're right in that it doesn't ALWAYS come down to who's "better", even for me. For instance i have Bill Russell #2/#3 due to his contributions to the game. ie being a pioneer - especially on defense. I don't think many actually think Bill Russell is better than a lot of people i have him ranked over.

But with Kobe and Hakeem - you got 2 guys that played in a similar era so that aspect is pretty much out the window. Basically if you told me that i could have Hakeem for his career (by career i mean the level they played at not their accomplishments) or Kobe for his - I'd take Hakeem.
Fair enough and I personally believe Hakeem is better too. I'd take him over Kobe if I had the choice, but I'm looking at accomplishments more so when I rank Kobe ahead of Hakeem and you're looking at the level of play. Both are solid parameters to judge players by. Who am I to nitpick that?

:cheers:

[el gringos]

Now that Kobe's nearly gone from the league, all most of his insane stans dispersed. How do you rank Kobe all time? I have the following players higher or going to be higher than Kobe all time later on.

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Kareem Abduljabbari
Wilt Chamberlain
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal

Kobe Bryant


I think 9th all time is a good rank for Kobe.

Don't let the Information Age make you believe that Kobe belongs in lists w those names. Really really good player though. Shot maker.

[BlakFrankWhite]

12-15

[pauk]

Top 10 obviously, where exactly is subjective, but it is not top 5.... for me he is battling Duncan, Bird, Shaq, Lebron there 6-10... Hakeem might have a case aswell... Oscar to...

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Not trolling, legitimately curious as to how one can rank Hakeem above Kobe.

Kobe has an equal number of FMVPs, an equal number of MVPs, but most importantly he has more rings. Those 3 glorified 2nd option rings give him the definitive edge for me.



Because he thinks that Hakeem was simply better at basketball (which is a 100% reasonable opinion. In fact I bet Hakeem gets taken well ahead of Kobe in an all time draft for most)? There isn't some set criteria you have to rank by - what being the "greatest" means is largely subjective.

RMR's post is actually largely accurate. I think that Hakeem was a better basketball player and arguably the most skilled big man ever. I also think that he won his rings with less help than Kobe, which counts for more than three second option rings won largely due to Shaq's presence.

At the end of the day it's a subjective list, and while I try to objectively evaluate the players in my top-10 as best I can it's not necessarily going to match up with someone else's list.

Kobe ranks somewhere between 11 and 15 for me, but if someone bumps him up to top-10, that's their opinion and is definitely a defensible one. Top-5 is not, but you generally only see troll posters ranking him that high. Kobe is without a doubt an all-time great player but he just doesn't fit into my top-10. Though some of the Kobe trolls on this board would take that as a slight, it really isn't intended to be; there just aren't enough spots in the top-10 for me to personally justify putting Kobe in there.

Hope the explanation helped. :cheers:

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

I don't like ranking lists but He is one of the best ever in my opinion.
No sht:biggums:

[PhutureDynasty]

RMR's post is actually largely accurate. I think that Hakeem was a better basketball player and arguably the most skilled big man ever. I also think that he won his rings with less help than Kobe, which counts for more than three second option rings won largely due to Shaq's presence.

At the end of the day it's a subjective list, and while I try to objectively evaluate the players in my top-10 as best I can it's not necessarily going to match up with someone else's list.

Kobe ranks somewhere between 11 and 15 for me, but if someone bumps him up to top-10, that's their opinion and is definitely a defensible one. Top-5 is not, but you generally only see troll posters ranking him that high. Kobe is without a doubt an all-time great player but he just doesn't fit into my top-10. Though some of the Kobe trolls on this board would take that as a slight, it really isn't intended to be; there just aren't enough spots in the top-10 for me to personally justify putting Kobe in there.

Hope the explanation helped. :cheers:
I agree he is closer to 10 than 5 as he still slides into the 9 spot for me. I can legitimately see an argument for 7 at the absolute minimum and 10 at the absolute maximum but that's just me. As I said earlier and you said too, top lists are largely subjective so who am I to judge another's list.

:cheers:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Happy to help. If you've got any other questions about who I listed feel free to ask.

[ImKobe]

1st

**** OP AND HIS MOMMA

[Mr Feeny]

1st

**** OP AND HIS MOMMAThis is a very well thought out post.

[ImKobe]

This is a very well thought out post.

:biggums:

[Alan Ogg]

I think a case can be made for Kobe anywhere from 5 - 12. And for the most part, that is where he is falling in this thread.

Personally, I put these players ahead:

Wilt, Russell
Kareem
Jordan, Magic, Bird
Duncan, Shaq

So I have Kobe around the 9/10 spot.

[34-24 Footwork]

These top 10 lists are way too opinion based. Theres no criteria. But I digress.

Kareem
MJ
Magic
Shaq
Duncan/Kobe (2000-present belong to these two players)
Bird
Hakim
Wilt
Dr J
Russell

[SamuraiSWISH]

Top Ten.

[Mr Feeny]

Top Ten.

Well thought out post, as usual. Great stuff:applause:

[34-24 Footwork]

Lol. Bird over over Kobe? Look....at some point, we have to let go of our emotional attachment to certain eras. Bird/Kobe and Hakeem are my favorite three players of all time, but Hakeem wasn't more productive than Shaq. Bird wasn't better than Kevin Durant. Kobe ain't ranked above Jordan.

Oh....McHale ain't better than Garnett either. Celtics/Lakers had a monopoly on the league and no one calls em out for that shit.

Need more consistency.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Im getting sick of this overrating of Russell. He is not top 5 player let alone top 2 on so many lists here. Those 11 rings in a 8 team league with 8 HOFers in his team are really kicking in peoples head. I would put him in top 15, maybe top 10. But I think he would be nothing better than maybe Ben Wallace in todays league. And I really mean it.

On thread: Kobe is in between 8th and 12th spot.

[Mr Feeny]

Im getting sick of this overrating of Russell. He is not top 5 player let alone top 2 on so many lists here. Those 11 rings in a 8 team league with 8 HOFers in his team are really kicking in peoples head. I would put him in top 15, maybe top 10. But I think he would be nothing better than maybe Ben Wallace in todays league. And I really mean it.
Wow. Bill Russell was more than a Ben Wallace. Surely you're on a windup.

[Quickening]

People are still living in the moment with Kobe, give it 5 years post retirement and he won't be in the top ten. Just doesn't have the individual stats, accolades (1mvp, 2 fmvp) and his longevity hasn't been that great either to warrant a spot.

The only argument he has is championships, and when 3 of those you were clearly a second option, those rings don't do enough to propel you into the top ten.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Wow. Bill Russell was more than a Ben Wallace. Surely you're on a windup.
No he was not. He would be a great defensive player and agreat rebounder just like Wallace was. He was a 15ppg player for his career in a such a high pace league. He would score 10 ppg at most today. Imagine a 10 ppg player with DPOY talent. Would you ever give him MVP or FMVP if his team win it. No. Ben Wallace was in a great situation to win it and the award has still gone to the highest scorer Billups. Russell would be just a top 100 player if he was playing in modern age league.

[Mr Feeny]

People are still living in the moment with Kobe, give it 5 years post retirement and he won't be in the top ten. Just doesn't have the individual stats, accolades (1mvp, 2 fmvp) and his longevity hasn't been that great either to warrant a spot.

The only argument he has is championships, and when 3 of those you were clearly a second option, those rings don't do enough to propel you into the top ten.

I think most people agree with you tbf. But those who do believe he's in the top 10 aren't unreasonable. They're allowed their own opinion. I'm with you though. He'll drop dramatically down the all time list in a few year's time.

[JebronLames]

Top 15 all time
Top 3 SG of all time
Top 3 sidekick of all time
Top 1 most overrated player of all time

[SexSymbol]

Russell
MJ
Kareem
Bird
Kobe
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Erving

[Mr Feeny]

Russell
MJ
Kareem
Bird
Kobe
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Erving

Why is Kobe in there?:biggums:

[SexSymbol]

Why is Kobe in there?:biggums:
He's a top 10 all time player and arguably top 5

[pauk]

Russell
MJ
Kareem
Bird
Kobe
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Erving

lol...

[Mr Feeny]

lol...I nearly spat out my drink.

[SexSymbol]

lol...
I'm including his ABA years, I really don't understand why does everybody look past them

[SexSymbol]

I nearly spat out my drink.
Then you don't know much about basketball :cheers:

[LEFT4DEAD]

Russell
MJ
Kareem
Bird
Kobe
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Erving
:biggums:

[masonanddixon]

Top 5-10. Arguably greatest all-around and individual player ever.

[pauk]

I'm including his ABA years, I really don't understand why does everybody look past them

Because the NBA existed before, during & after FIBA Americas Basketball Association (ABA), it was a different league with unfortunately lesser pool of faculty... which led to defunct, they would have seized to exist if NBA wasnt so kind to pick some players/teams from there.... Julius was one...

And even if you include his ABA accomplishments it still unfortunately doesnt come close to Lebron...

I know you probably dont like Lebron, but you cant act like he doesnt exist, if you are gona place somebody over him then at least use Oscar Robertson, with him you can at least use that stats / triple double thing criteria.....

[JohnFreeman]

Top 5-10. Arguably greatest all-around and individual player ever.
:roll:

[masonanddixon]

:roll:

You don't know basketball, son.

[Mr Feeny]

You don't know basketball, son.

says the man that has Kobe in the top 7?

[JohnFreeman]

You don't know basketball, son.
I think you could argue Hakeem is even a better all round player :confusedshrug:

[masonanddixon]

says the man that has Kobe in the top 7?

From 2004-2010 he was at or just slightly below Jordan level.

05-07 he was playing out of his mind.

[masonanddixon]

I think you could argue Hakeem is even a better all round player :confusedshrug:

The funny thing is Kobe probably has arguably the better post game, and as a guard. Obviously he's far better at everything else on offense than Hakeem too

[JohnFreeman]

The funny thing is Kobe probably has arguably the better post game, and as a guard. Obviously he's far better at everything else on offense than Hakeem too
http://i.imgur.com/UF1vQAB.gif

[Mr Feeny]

From 2004-2010 he was at or just slightly below Jordan level.

05-07 he was playing out of his mind.

You're right. Especially 05 when he was all nba third team, shot 43%fg, played no defensive, and was near the top of the league in turnovers, leading his team to 34 wins in the process. And the other two seasons when he got eliminated in 1st round. Especially that spectacular clutch 2nd half of game 7 where he scored 1 point on a free throw and was Embarassed by Barbosa of all people. Great stuff:applause:

[Mr Feeny]

The funny thing is Kobe probably has arguably the better post game, and as a guard. Obviously he's far better at everything else on offense than Hakeem too

Oh. My. God. What. Did. I . Just. Read.

[Dragonyeuw]

The funny thing is Kobe probably has arguably the better post game

Oh for **** sakes.

[masonanddixon]

You're right. Especially 05 when he was all nba third team, shot 43%fg, played no defensive, and was near the top of the league in turnovers, leading his team to 34 wins in the process. And the other two seasons when he got eliminated in 1st round. Especially that spectacular clutch 2nd half of game 7 where he scored 1 point on a free throw and was Embarassed by Barbosa of all people. Great stuff:applause:

Look at his teams. And look at what happened as soon as he had Gasol. Everyone in the NBA was in agreement that he was the best at the time. It wasn't even an argument.

[Rose'sACL]

Look at his teams. And look at what happened as soon as he had Gasol. Everyone in the NBA was in agreement that he was the best at the time. It wasn't even an argument.
kobe was the best player in the league in 2007 and may be 2008. that is it.

[Mr Clutch Melo]

The funny thing is Kobe probably has arguably the better post game, and as a guard. Obviously he's far better at everything else on offense than Hakeem too


Delete your account.

[SHAQisGOAT]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4./5. Bird/Magic
6./7./8. Wilt/Duncan/Shaq
9./10./11. Hakeem/LeBron/Kobe
...

So, between 9-11.


Top5 peaks though:
Shaq
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Bird

[SexSymbol]

The funny thing is Kobe probably has arguably the better post game, and as a guard. Obviously he's far better at everything else on offense than Hakeem too
Kobe has been at the top of post up percentages pretty much every year for a while now. He obviously has a ton of moves there. They're at least equal in that apartment

[SexSymbol]

kobe was the best player in the league in 2007 and may be 2008. that is it.
06-10 are easily kobe every year

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe has been at the top of post up percentages pretty much every year for a while now. He obviously has a ton of moves there. They're at least equal in that apartment

Go ahead and delete your account as well.

[Rose'sACL]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4./5. Bird/Magic
6./7./8. Wilt/Duncan/Shaq
9./10./11. Hakeem/LeBron/Kobe
...

So, between 9-11.


Top5 peaks though:
Shaq
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
lol@bird and magic above wilt and duncan. defense clearly isn't part of the game you like.
peak wise lebron should be there instead of bird given that they had nearly the same stats with lebron being clearly the better defenders during their peak years.

list should be:
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4./5. Russell/Duncan
6/7 magic/bird
8. Shaq
9./10./11. Hakeem/LeBron/Kobe


Top5 peaks though:
Shaq
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
LeBron

[ILLsmak]

Probably somewhere from #8-10


Lebron pushes Kobe closer to 10 or possibly out of the top 10 if he wins this year though

It's tough... but I do agree that LeBron is the one who would be pushing him back. It just makes you wonder if Hakeem has a better resume.

I can't say he does, but I do think he played better when he was in his prime.

It also depends on how many old dudes, other than Wilt, Russell and Kareem, that you wanna throw in. Some people might throw in Oscar (why tho?) etc...

So we got it basically like this: Kareem, MJ, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq, TD, Kobe/Hakeem/LeBron. And only one of those dudes is moving. TD can move up. I'm still not giving him entry into that top 6, tho. Still not giving him 7 so far, either, despite long-term winning. He doesn't have what I want. Like dude said in the GOAT rap album thread... you need some hit singles, too. I dunno if he has enough in comparison to those guys.

I could see Magic dropping. I really think Bird is underrated and that his team is not nearly as stacked as people think they are, esp in comparison to the rest and his conference.

So, I'm saying 5 other-than-Magic is on lock. Bron can push down from there. I think Bron might be the one out of the top 10 now... at 11, due to the fluctuations and the fact the has only won 2 rings, failed recently, is playing at a low level now and just jumped ship. We'll see what he's got in store for us this year.

Some people might say no matter what Bron is better than Kobe all-time, and maybe that's true. Either way, I can't see Kobe dropping out of 15. You'd have to reach and put some crazy people in there. haha Well, I mean if you're throwing Mikan in there then I could see it. I refrain from using Mikan unless it's to tell people that dude also balled... He's still going right outside of my top ten tho. Probably after Kobe. Would be like... Kobe, Mikan, Oscar... x, x.

Edit: Actually, **** it. I could see Mikan making top ten and kicking out Hakeem. I do think Hakeem is mad overrated, but he is such a beast. All time-resume wise he's not that great. We all know if Prime Mikan and Prime Hakeem went head to head, Mikan would be doing him.

-Smak

[SHAQisGOAT]

lol@bird and magic above wilt and duncan. defense clearly isn't part of the game you like.
peak wise lebron should be there instead of bird given that they had nearly the same stats with lebron being clearly the better defenders during their peak years.

list should be:
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4./5. Russell/Duncan
6/7 magic/bird
8. Shaq
9./10./11. Hakeem/LeBron/Kobe


Top5 peaks though:
Shaq
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
LeBron

Please don't quote me if you're going to post some ignorant shit (as usual).

I couldn't give less ****s about your list, those things have plenty of subjectivity obviously, but everything else there shows, again, your lack of knowledge on those subjects...

[SHAQisGOAT]

The funny thing is Kobe probably has arguably the better post game, and as a guard. Obviously he's far better at everything else on offense than Hakeem too

:biggums:

[Rose'sACL]

Please don't quote me if you're going to post some ignorant shit (as usual).

I couldn't give less ****s about your list, those things have plenty of subjectivity obviously, but everything else there shows, again, your lack of knowledge on those subjects...
nice. everyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't know about basketball. i have at least got one bad habit of yours to go away which was to call everyone a "kid" if they didn't agree with you.

[SexSymbol]

:biggums:
But it's true, especially in terms of how many different types of shots Kobe can put up from there. He even uses a modified version skyhook from time to time. He has MJ's fadeaway too, not to mention all the up and unders and fakes there is. It sounds stupid to compare his post game to Hakeem's, but when you really think about it and check out the facts, you'll see that he has a greater variety of post moves than Hakeem and he converts them at a similar rate like Hakeem. Hakeem shot more shots from there, so he has that

[Rose'sACL]

But it's true, especially in terms of how many different types of shots Kobe can put up from there. He even uses a modified version skyhook from time to time. He has MJ's fadeaway too, not to mention all the up and unders and fakes there is. It sounds stupid to compare his post game to Hakeem's, but when you really think about it and check out the facts, you'll see that he has a greater variety of post moves than Hakeem and he converts them at a similar rate like Hakeem. Hakeem shot more shots from there, so he has that
why does the bolded matter when hakeem coverted them at the same or better rate than kobe while take way bigger volume of shots from there. are you saying that making 20 out of 50 threes attempted in a season is same as 200 out of 500 threes attempted?

[SexSymbol]

why does the bolded matter when hakeem coverted them at the same or better rate than kobe while take way bigger volume of shots from there. are you saying that making 20 out of 50 threes attempted in a season is same as 200 out of 500 threes attempted?
Kobe doesn't just shoot 2 or 3 shots a game from post ups, he lives in the mid range too. I don't have statistics near me right now, but Kobe, even in 12-13 was atop the post-up percentages. He's at least top 3 post up player ever and arguably GOAT.

[Rose'sACL]

Kobe doesn't just shoot 2 or 3 shots a game from post ups, he lives in the mid range too. I don't have statistics near me right now, but Kobe, even in 12-13 was atop the post-up percentages. He's at least top 3 post up player ever and arguably GOAT.
and both lebron and melo in 13-14 shattered kobe' stats from 12-13 while taking more shots in the post than kobe did in 12-13 and even while doing that there were plenty of big men in the league who shot close to same percentages in the post while taking 2-3 times the shot melo and lebron took. are you saying that we should only look at percentages and not volume?
kobe doesn't compare to hakeem in the post because hakeem lived there.

[SHAQisGOAT]

nice. everyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't know about basketball. i have at least got one bad habit of yours to go away which was to call everyone a "kid" if they didn't agree with you.

Right... You totally grasped the point of my post :rolleyes:

You were the one calling me out on my list, saying ignorant stuff like Bird didn't play defense, or that Magic can't be as high because of D, then saying Bird and LeBron had the same stats but Bird didn't have a higher peak because of defense (guess it all boils down to stats and your opinion about players' defense :rolleyes:)...

Then you come around posting that, later on... :facepalm

[34-24 Footwork]

Kobe doesn't just shoot 2 or 3 shots a game from post ups, he lives in the mid range too. I don't have statistics near me right now, but Kobe, even in 12-13 was atop the post-up percentages. He's at least top 3 post up player ever and arguably GOAT.

Bro....take it from me (check my username)....

Hakeem and Kobe both had INCREDIBLE footwork. Kobe is pretty much the second coming of Hakeem in Guard form. No one had better foot work and creativity than these two. But I'm not sure who had a "better" post game. But as a gambling man, i'd lean toward hakeem.

Also....take heed to who you're debating on this topic. Many people on this forum think that Blake Griffin and Lebron have great footwork and a good post game. That should tell you about the basketball knowledge of most people on this forum.

[the mesiah]

Im getting sick of this overrating of Russell. He is not top 5 player let alone top 2 on so many lists here. Those 11 rings in a 8 team league with 8 HOFers in his team are really kicking in peoples head. I would put him in maybe top 10.
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g322/Sugarsandrainbows/GIFs/e6u4ok.gif

[elementally morale]

Im'n not ranking anyoene pre 1980 as I've ssen only footage and not much whole games. That bing said, Kobe is Top 10. 2nd tier.

First tier:

Jordan
Jabbar
Magic
Bird


Second tier:
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe
LeBron


So after 1980 top 10 for sure. Overall... it depends on how you rank players inside each tier. I'd say over all (pre 1980 included) anything from 7 thru 12 is reasonable.

[MEB2kDeez]

6-9 range imo

[Beastmode88]

1. Jordan
2. KAJ
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

Duncan will be #8 if he wins a ring this year and/or next.

[HOoopCityJones]

The disrespect Kobe gets is incredible smh. He's Top 10 at worst.

All this Top 15 and 11 shit is a gas.

[Mr Feeny]

The disrespect Kobe gets is incredible smh. He's Top 10 at worst.

All this Top 15 and 11 shit is a gas.Tbf most people have him at 8-12. It's not an insult to have him 11th of 12th

[24-Inch_Chrome]

The disrespect Kobe gets is incredible smh. He's Top 10 at worst.

All this Top 15 and 11 shit is a gas.

That's your opinion. Don't get pissy because your subjective rankings aren't shared by other posters.

He's not a consensus top-10 player. 11-15 is where non-consensus players should fall. Stop being such a player stan and try understanding why he doesn't make the top-10 on some lists.

[HOoopCityJones]

That's your opinion. Don't get pissy because your subjective rankings aren't shared by other posters.

He's not a consensus top-10 player. 11-15 is where non-consensus players should fall. Stop being such a player stan and try understanding why he doesn't make the top-10 on some lists.

Lmao , why do you guys always try to pretend Kobe fans have more bias than those who hate him or wanna see him downplayed because they think he's overrated?

This shit goes both ways, half the people in here talking about he's 11-15 are LeBron fans or Old School Era basketball stans. Quit trying to act like the cesspool of Basketball forums is a consensus, everyone on this Board has bias, even the mods.

If Duncan or Shaq have a case for top 6 or 7, so does Kobe, he's done just as much.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Lmao , why do you guys always try to pretend Kobe fans have more bias than those who hate him or wanna see him downplayed because they think he's overrated?

This shit goes both ways, half the people in here talking about he's 11-15 are LeBron fans or Old School Era basketball stans. Quit trying to act like the cesspool of Basketball forums is a consensus, everyone on this Board has bias, even the mods.

If Duncan or Shaq have a case for top 6 or 7, so does Kobe, he's done just as much.

LeBron trolls are just as bad as Kobe trolls, and neither deserve to be taken seriously.

9/10 spots on these lists are generally occupied by the same 9 players with a slight degree of variance, how is that not a consensus, or at least something very close to it? Kobe and LeBron are the only two players who are regularly hit or miss.

Again, subjectivity. You think Kobe has done as much as Shaq or Duncan. I disagree. If you want to discuss why, I'm happy to do that, but don't act like Kobe being on a level with those two is a fact. It's an opinion.

[HOoopCityJones]

LeBron trolls are just as bad as Kobe trolls, and neither deserve to be taken seriously.

9/10 spots on these lists are generally occupied by the same 9 players with a slight degree of variance, how is that not a consensus, or at least something very close to it? Kobe and LeBron are the only two players who are regularly hit or miss.

Again, subjectivity. You think Kobe has done as much as Shaq or Duncan. I disagree. If you want to discuss why, I'm happy to do that, but don't act like Kobe being on a level with those two is a fact. It's an opinion.


Just like him not being on their level is just your opinion. You're not the fuccing grand keeper of people's Top 10, or whats consensus, it varies from person to person with a huge amount of bias piled on Top.

They all have something each other doesn't, Duncan and Kobe have longevity where as Shaq doesn't, Kobe and Shaq have impressive stats in areas Duncan lacks and vise versa. Shaq had the better peak and prime , but has less rings than both. Kobe and Duncan have won with less than Shaq.

It's not as cut and dry as you try to make it out to be. Duncan, Shaq and Kobe have legit arguments over even Magic and Bird imo. The problem with ISH is that they think one positive out weighs another. You should take the entire body of work into consideration.

If stats were all there is to this game, Wilt and Kareem would be GOAT, if winning is all that meant anything Duncan and Russell would be Goat. If it was skill then Magic, Bird and Kobe would be Goat. Jordan is Goat because he managed to fire off on all cylinders , just completely dominated his Era.

[RRR3]

Just like him not being on their level is just your opinion. You're not the fuccing grand keeper of people's Top 10, or whats consensus, it varies from person to person with a huge amount of bias piled on Top.

They all have something each other doesn't, Duncan and Kobe have longevity where as Shaq doesn't, Kobe and Shaq have impressive stats in areas Duncan lacks and vise versa. Shaq had the better peak and prime , but has less rings than both. Kobe and Duncan have won with less than Shaq.

It's not as cut and dry as you try to make it out to be. Duncan, Shaq and Kobe have legit arguments over even Magic and Bird imo. The problem with ISH is that they think one positive out weighs another. You should take the entire body of work into consideration.

If stats were all there is to this game, Wilt and Kareem would be GOAT, if winning is all that meant anything Duncan and Russell would be Goat. If it was skill then Magic, Bird and Kobe would be Goat. Jordan is Goat because he managed to fire off on all cylinders , just completely dominated his Era.
The "Shaq didn't have longevity" bullshit has been debunked numerous times on ISH, but Bean stans still run with it. Sad.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

If I'm saying I disagree with your opinion does not that imply that it's my opinion? If I see the same 9 players on the majority of top-10 lists, with an extra spot being given to either Kobe or LeBron, then from what I've seen that is a consensus. It doesn't vary all that much, that's the point.

1) Duncan did not lack impressive stats. His value outside the box score is unparalleled among these three players on top of that. 2) Duncan won with less help than Kobe or Shaq, Kobe is closer to being grouped with Shaq than he is with Duncan imo. 3) Shaq had longevity.

I do take the entire body of work into consideration, I just happen to evaluate it differently. With my method of evaluation, I can't place Kobe over Shaq or Duncan. It's not intended to be some huge slight that he doesn't crack my top-10, slotting in at 11, 12, or 13 still means that he's an all-time great caliber player. It's not intended to be disrespectful.

It generally is a combination of those categories that defines a top-10 list but the weight applied to each one, as well as the context that is considered for them, differs from person to person.

[Mr Feeny]

Lmao , why do you guys always try to pretend Kobe fans have more bias than those who hate him or wanna see him downplayed because they think he's overrated?

This shit goes both ways, half the people in here talking about he's 11-15 are LeBron fans or Old School Era basketball stans. Quit trying to act like the cesspool of Basketball forums is a consensus, everyone on this Board has bias, even the mods.

If Duncan or Shaq have a case for top 6 or 7, so does Kobe, he's done just as much.

Disagree here. Duncan has 3 titles (arguably 4) as lead dog, compared to Kobe's 2. Duncan has double the MVP awards.
The difference in Duncan and Kobe's defensive abilities atleast match the advantage Kobe has on Duncan offensively in my opinion.

Like the poster above said, Kobe is not a consensus top 10 player. If you think he is, that's fine. But don't throw your toys out of the pram just because most people on the board dis grew with your opinion.

[Beastmode88]

That's your opinion. Don't get pissy because your subjective rankings aren't shared by other posters.

He's not a consensus top-10 player. 11-15 is where non-consensus players should fall. Stop being such a player stan and try understanding why he doesn't make the top-10 on some lists.

Name 15 people with a better career than kobe.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Name 15 people with a better career than kobe.

I used that as a general range, he's 11th or 12th for me. I've listed my top-10 ITT as well as who I lump Kobe in with, you can just look at that.

[ShawkFactory]

06-10 are easily kobe every year
09 and 10 are not easily Kobe.

[sd3035]

Difficult question... if you put him in the 60s for example, he would obviously dominate the league and be by far the best player, but he did less in his era than someone like Bill Russell did in his

On how good he really was, he's top 5 all time, but how dominant he was compared to his peers, I would put him around 8-10

[HOoopCityJones]

The "Shaq didn't have longevity" bullshit has been debunked numerous times on ISH, but Bean stans still run with it. Sad.

In contrast to his potential? No the fucc it hasn't , people were saying Kobe was better than Shaq because of longevity and what he did from 07-09, circa 2010, but now that Kobe is well removed from that level of play we wanna act like Shaq has been balling from 2006 right up til he retied. He's had the most stacked Teams and gets the least flack for it, yet Lebron and Kobe get blasted for it everyday.

Fact of the matter is the same shit you guys use to discredit other ball players, you let your favorites get away with it. Whether it's because you like their personality more or how they carry themselves on the court, it seems a lot of of shit used to discredit Kobe and Lebron for that matter is not applied to the Basketball community at large.

[BIZARRO]

Like Oscar before him, Kobe to me is hard to place.

I personally have him at #6.

But I feel he could logically be argued anywhere from #2-#11, similar to Oscar.

[HOoopCityJones]

If I'm saying I disagree with your opinion does not that imply that it's my opinion? If I see the same 9 players on the majority of top-10 lists, with an extra spot being given to either Kobe or LeBron, then from what I've seen that is a consensus. It doesn't vary all that much, that's the point.

1) Duncan did not lack impressive stats. His value outside the box score is unparalleled among these three players on top of that. 2) Duncan won with less help than Kobe or Shaq, Kobe is closer to being grouped with Shaq than he is with Duncan imo. 3) Shaq had longevity.

I do take the entire body of work into consideration, I just happen to evaluate it differently. With my method of evaluation, I can't place Kobe over Shaq or Duncan. It's not intended to be some huge slight that he doesn't crack my top-10, slotting in at 11, 12, or 13 still means that he's an all-time great caliber player. It's not intended to be disrespectful.

It generally is a combination of those categories that defines a top-10 list but the weight applied to each one, as well as the context that is considered for them, differs from person to person.

I didn't say Duncan lacked stats , I said he lacked certain stats Shaq and Kobe had , and here's the important part buddy, vise versa. Which means they all have their strengths.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Well Kobe played on some good teams so he's obviously not better than Magic or Bird or Russell

He lost in the first round during 06-07 so he can't be better than Hakeem

He never did anything without Shaq so Shaq > Kobe

He only has 2 FMVP for his 5 rings so KAJ & Duncan >>

He could never combine his scoring dominance with post season success so Wilt >> all day

Did I mention that he missed the playoffs one year? GOAT candidates like KAJ would never do that.

[ShawkFactory]

Well Kobe played on some good teams so he's obviously not better than Magic or Bird or Russell

He lost in the first round during 06-07 so he can't be better than Hakeem

He never did anything without Shaq so Shaq > Kobe

He only has 2 FMVP for his 5 rings so KAJ & Duncan >>

He could never combine his scoring dominance with post season success so Wilt >> all day

Did I mention that he missed the playoffs one year? GOAT candidates like KAJ would never do that.So....what's you're rankings...?

[RRR3]

In contrast to his potential? No the fucc it hasn't , people were saying Kobe was better than Shaq because of longevity and what he did from 07-09, circa 2010, but now that Kobe is well removed from that level of play we wanna act like Shaq has been balling from 2006 right up til he retied. He's had the most stacked Teams and gets the least flack for it, yet Lebron and Kobe get blasted for it everyday.

Fact of the matter is the same shit you guys use to discredit other ball players, you let your favorites get away with it. Whether it's because you like their personality more or how they carry themselves on the court, it seems a lot of of shit used to discredit Kobe and Lebron for that matter is not applied to the Basketball community at large.
Shaq from his rookie season (92-93) to 2005-06:


23.4 PPG/13. 4 RPG/1.9 APG/0.7 SPG/3.5 BPG on 56.2 FG%

29.3/13.2/2.4/0.9/2.9 on 59.9%

29.3/11.4/2.7/0.9/2.4 on 58.3%

26.6/11.0/2.9/0.6/2.1 on 57.3%

26.2/12.5/3.1/0.9/2.9 on 55.7%

28.3/11.4/2.4/0.7/2.4 on 58.4%

26.3/10.7/2.3/0.7/1.7 on 57.6%

29.7/13.6/3.8/0.5/3.0 on 57.4%

28.7/12.7/3.7/0.6/2.8 on 57.2%

27.2/10.7/3.0/0.6/2.0 on 57.9%

27.5/11.1/3.1/0.6/2.4 on 57.4%

21.5/11.5/2.9/0.5/2.5 on 58.4%

22.9/10.4/2.7/0.5/2.3 on 60.4%

20.0/9.2/1.9/0.4/1.8 on 60.0%


That's 14 years.

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq's prime is around the same length as Kobe's, 1993-2005 vs 2001-2013, and Shaq's peak and prime years blow Kobe's out of the water. He's just a superior player, pretty easily evidenced by the fact that in his top 5-6 years or so.

Kobe's had noticeable dips in those years, too. Not just is Shaq from 1998-2002 a vastly better player, but no version of 2004, 2005, 2011-2013 Kobe comes close to any Shaq version from 1993-2005, as those were downyears for Bean.

[AirBourne92]

Kobe's impact goes beyond stats, and his teammates and players in the leauge will be the first to tell you

a stat sheet doesnt show kobe's play calling abilities as well as other things like strategizing in various ways


all time greats and legends put kobe in the top 5 interchangeably at any spot

his nba teammates and players have kobe in top 2,3, 4,5 etc at any spot, some even at number 1


meanwhile a bunch of dumbass squares who have never played basketball in their life put kobe outside the top 5

/thread

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Kobe's impact goes beyond stats, and his teammates and players in the leauge will be the first to tell you

a stat sheet doesnt show kobe's play calling abilities as well as other things like strategizing in various ways


all time greats and legends put kobe in the top 5 interchangeably at any spot

his nba teammates and players have kobe in top 2,3, 4,5 etc at any spot, some even at number 1


meanwhile a bunch of dumbass squares who have never played basketball in their life put kobe outside the top 5

/thread

Future negged. This post is littered with bullshit and contributes nothing to a legitimate discussion. **** off.

[HOoopCityJones]

Well Kobe played on some good teams so he's obviously not better than Magic or Bird or Russell

He lost in the first round during 06-07 so he can't be better than Hakeem

He never did anything without Shaq so Shaq > Kobe

He only has 2 FMVP for his 5 rings so KAJ & Duncan >>

He could never combine his scoring dominance with post season success so Wilt >> all day

Did I mention that he missed the playoffs one year? GOAT candidates like KAJ would never do that.

Exactly. :oldlol:

[sammichoffate]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

A while ago, Milbuck convinced me that Magic and Larry were better than Kobe because they controlled the game and their teams more efficiently. If Kobe didn't take such tough shots all the time, he'd be top-5 for me.

[HOoopCityJones]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

A while ago, Milbuck convinced me that Magic and Larry were better than Kobe because they controlled the game and their teams more efficiently. If Kobe didn't take such tough shots all the time, he'd be top-5 for me.

I agree with your list. Lebron should be above Hakeem though.

[sammichoffate]

I agree with your list.To be fair, it's a very fluid list. Someone else could have Kobe leap above Wilt, Magic, and Larry and I would have no problem with that. Duncan has a serious case to match against Kobe, so there's also that. Others might feel like Wilt should be way lower and everyone else gets moved up, with Lebron taking his spot in the top 10 altogether. This list is just my opinion though, too many factors to consider like team help, organization, and other stuff.

[SexSymbol]

09 and 10 are not easily Kobe.
in 09 he beat the same team that LeBron Couldnt, and Wade didnt even get to ECF.
In 10 he was a finals mvp against the same team that LeBron choked against.
There's more debate in 06-07 then in 09-10

[SexSymbol]

Well Kobe played on some good teams so he's obviously not better than Magic or Bird or Russell

He lost in the first round during 06-07 so he can't be better than Hakeem

He never did anything without Shaq so Shaq > Kobe

He only has 2 FMVP for his 5 rings so KAJ & Duncan >>

He could never combine his scoring dominance with post season success so Wilt >> all day

Did I mention that he missed the playoffs one year? GOAT candidates like KAJ would never do that.
Post of the year

[RRR3]

I can definitely see a good case for Kobe being ranked over Bird, but then again I never watched Bird play and didn't watch the NBA closely until late in Beans career. Based on what I know, though, it seems that putting Bird ~5th and Kobe/Bron ~10th/11th is odd, to say the least. Stats wise Kobe and Bird are quite comparable and Kobe is considered the better defender. Bird has him beat in team play and rebounding, but Kobe was a better scorer. For anyone who watched both, what separates them?

I don't see a case for Kobe over Shaq though. Admittedly I didn't watch the NBA much until recently, but based on what I know that's just my view.

[SexSymbol]

I can definitely see a good case for Kobe being ranked over Bird, but then again I never watched Bird play and didn't watch the NBA closely until late in Beans career. Based on what I know, though, it seems that putting Bird ~5th and Kobe/Bron ~10th/11th is odd, to say the least. Stats wise Kobe and Bird are quite comparable and Kobe is considered the better defender. Bird has him beat in team play and rebounding, but Kobe was a better scorer. For anyone who watched both, what separates them?

I don't see a case for Kobe over Shaq though. Admittedly I didn't watch the NBA much until recently, but based on what I know that's just my view.
Nostalgia

[HOoopCityJones]

Shaq from his rookie season (92-93) to 2005-06:


23.4 PPG/13. 4 RPG/1.9 APG/0.7 SPG/3.5 BPG on 56.2 FG%

29.3/13.2/2.4/0.9/2.9 on 59.9%

29.3/11.4/2.7/0.9/2.4 on 58.3%

26.6/11.0/2.9/0.6/2.1 on 57.3%

26.2/12.5/3.1/0.9/2.9 on 55.7%

28.3/11.4/2.4/0.7/2.4 on 58.4%

26.3/10.7/2.3/0.7/1.7 on 57.6%

29.7/13.6/3.8/0.5/3.0 on 57.4%

28.7/12.7/3.7/0.6/2.8 on 57.2%

27.2/10.7/3.0/0.6/2.0 on 57.9%

27.5/11.1/3.1/0.6/2.4 on 57.4%

21.5/11.5/2.9/0.5/2.5 on 58.4%

22.9/10.4/2.7/0.5/2.3 on 60.4%

20.0/9.2/1.9/0.4/1.8 on 60.0%


That's 14 years.

I personally have Shaq above Kobe in my rankings, but it's about the idea that they aren't comparable when for a long time the only knock on Kobe was he couldn't win without Shaq and he won 2.

Shaq
Kobe
Duncan

Is how I have it for now.

[sammichoffate]

I can definitely see a good case for Kobe being ranked over Bird, but then again I never watched Bird play and didn't watch the NBA closely until late in Beans career. Based on what I know, though, it seems that putting Bird ~5th and Kobe/Bron ~10th/11th is odd, to say the least. Stats wise Kobe and Bird are quite comparable and Kobe is considered the better defender. Bird has him beat in team play and rebounding, but Kobe was a better scorer. For anyone who watched both, what separates them?

I don't see a case for Kobe over Shaq though. Admittedly I didn't watch the NBA much until recently, but based on what I know that's just my view.Bird lead his team better and didn't take tough shots nearly as much as Kobe does. The main knock on Kobe's game is his tendency to settle for tough jumpers instead of trying to get other players going if the game is going badly for him. Talent-wise, Kobe is more talented than Bird was in his prime. He also has longevity over him, but Bird has an extra FMVP over Kobe. There's nothing wrong with putting Kobe over Bird, but Kobe's shot selection just hurts him really badly when ranking over others.

[RRR3]

I personally have Shaq above Kobe in my rankings, but it's about the idea that they aren't comparable when for a long time the only knock on Kobe was he couldn't win without Shaq and he won 2.

Shaq
Kobe
Duncan

Is how I have it for now.
One of these days, I'll have to become a real basketball historian so I can back up my opinions better lol.

The top 4 usually seems to be MJ, KAJ, Russell and Wilt.

Shaq, Duncan, Magic next tier maybe?

Then Bird Kobe Bron Hakeem?

[Rose'sACL]

in 09 he beat the same team that LeBron Couldnt, and Wade didnt even get to ECF.
In 10 he was a finals mvp against the same team that LeBron choked against.
There's more debate in 06-07 then in 09-10
lakers beat the magic.
lebron avaraged better numbers against both 09 magic and 10 celtics than kobe did.

[kennethgriffin]

Top 5-7


Atleast thats how most of the world ranks him


Only jordan, russell, kareem have better careers

Could put magic/kobe/duncan all in the top 4,5,6 spots interchangeably

[HOoopCityJones]

One of these days, I'll have to become a real basketball historian so I can back up my opinions better lol.

The top 4 usually seems to be MJ, KAJ, Russell and Wilt.

Shaq, Duncan, Magic next tier maybe?

Then Bird Kobe Bron Hakeem?

The thing about putting Magic and Bird over Shaq , Kobe, and Duncan is that I feel people only take the former two's complete bodies of work into consideration. Shaq-Duncan-Kobe have had stellar careers , when you factor in things like stats, longevity and defense they should be moved up.

[ShawkFactory]

in 09 he beat the same team that LeBron Couldnt, and Wade didnt even get to ECF.
In 10 he was a finals mvp against the same team that LeBron choked against.
There's more debate in 06-07 then in 09-10
:facepalm

[RRR3]

You're right hoop city, Magic and (especially) Bird seem to get the nostalgia treatment on ISH. Much more so than others. Now, I am not arguing about where those two are ranked but I just think it's weird to see posters throw out longevity and act as if Bird and Magic are perfect

[PsychoBe]

You're right hoop city, Magic and (especially) Bird seem to get the nostalgia treatment on ISH. Much more so than others. Now, I am not arguing about where those two are ranked but I just think it's weird to see posters throw out longevity and act as if Bird and Magic are perfect

just because you havent seen them play doesn't mean we all havent

[SexSymbol]

lakers beat the magic.
lebron avaraged better numbers against both 09 magic and 10 celtics than kobe did.
Better numbers doesn't mean shit, I mean hello, have you been watching basketball for a week or something?
He straight up vanished in BOS series, one of the worst chokes ever and he did not show up for G6 of ORL series

[Rose'sACL]

Better numbers doesn't mean shit, I mean hello, have you been watching basketball for a week or something?
He straight up vanished in BOS series, one of the worst chokes ever and he did not show up for G6 of ORL series
he did show up. what are you talking about? give me some solid proof and not opinions of people.

[SexSymbol]

he did show up. what are you talking about? give me some solid proof and not opinions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdqy27KsqYk
he quit in G5 and was aweful in G6

[OnFire]

How do you use the Laker titles with Shaq, where Shaq was the best player, and use it to rank Kobe over Shaq? It makes no sense.

[ABfor3]

How do you use the Laker titles with Shaq, where Shaq was the best player, and use it to rank Kobe over Shaq? It makes no sense.
Because Kobe actually contributed significantly to those championships

[34-24 Footwork]

Top 5-7


Atleast thats how most of the world ranks him


Only jordan, russell, kareem have better careers

Could put magic/kobe/duncan all in the top 4,5,6 spots interchangeably


This.....nothing on this board won't change how prior legends or upcoming superstars view Kobe's ranking.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Because Kobe actually contributed significantly to those championships

Not all of them. 2000 was all Shaq.

Kobe contributed for 2001 and 2002 but a second option ring is a second option ring. Shaq was the key to the three-peat.

[SexSymbol]

How do you use the Laker titles with Shaq, where Shaq was the best player, and use it to rank Kobe over Shaq? It makes no sense.
Because Kobe put up numbers that are better than a lot of 1st options numbers on championship teams from before and after that. And he was usually dominant in western conference playoffs where the real competition was.

[Rose'sACL]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdqy27KsqYk
he quit in G5 and was aweful in G6
he had 1 bad game. in game 6 he had 27-19-10 triple double. he didn't have an awesome 4th quarter but he still scored 10 points. lol. by your logic, kobe didn't show up in any playoffs game.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Not all of them. 2000 was all Shaq.

Kobe contributed for 2001 and 2002 but a second option ring is a second option ring. Shaq was the key to the three-peat.

So Kobe putting up 29/7/6 and Vernon Maxwell putting up 13/4 are on the same level because a "second option ring is a second option ring"

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Kobe was leading the team in FGA but lets just throw the "2nd option" label out there because you wan to discredit Kobe..

pathetic

[SexSymbol]

he had 1 bad game. in game 6 he had 27-19-10 triple double. he didn't have an awesome 4th quarter but he still scored 10 points. lol. by your logic, kobe didn't show up in any playoffs game.
It's not about the numbers, man. Did you even watch the games that you are trying to talk about? Even LeBron fans were jumping ship at the time during the game. Was a funny time to be honest.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Because Kobe put up numbers that are better than a lot of 1st options numbers on championship teams from before and after that. And he was usually dominant in western conference playoffs where the real competition was.

That just wasn't true in the finals. There's a case for 2002, where he was still overshadowed by Shaq, but his finals lines in 2000 and 2001 are not "better than a lot of 1st option numbers." What a ridiculous statement.

[SexSymbol]

Not all of them. 2000 was all Shaq.

Kobe contributed for 2001 and 2002 but a second option ring is a second option ring. Shaq was the key to the three-peat.
He still was great in the playoffs and very clutch. And he played injured in the finals

[ImKobe]

Not all of them. 2000 was all Shaq.

Kobe contributed for 2001 and 2002 but a second option ring is a second option ring. Shaq was the key to the three-peat.

2000 was all Shaq? Really? Kobe wasn't balling the first 3 rounds?

they don't even make the Finals without Kobe, who had a game-saving block on Sabonis @Portland and who led the team in 4 categories in Game 7 of the series...who got injured in Game 2 of the Finals, they lose Game 3 without him, Kobe next game leads them to a win on the road in Overtime with Shaq fouled out

lol...

2001 Kobe led the Lakers in Winshares and had the better numbers through the first 3 rounds and was really solid outside of Game 1 in the Finals, 2002 he averaged 27 ppg on 51% shooting with 55% from 3 in the Finals, closing out games on the road....

outside of 2000, Lakers faced the best teams on the road to the Finals, they don't make the Finals without Kobe, where they faced their easiest opponents.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

So Kobe putting up 29/7/6 and Vernon Maxwell putting up 13/4 are on the same level because a "second option ring is a second option ring"

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Kobe was leading the team in FGA but lets just throw the "2nd option" label out there because you wan to discredit Kobe..

pathetic

Would he have won anything without Shaq? No. A second option ring is a second option ring.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Lebron's 2nd ring came during a lock out season in a historically weak conference while he averaged 26/8/6 on the playoffs..

Kobe's 2nd ring came in a historical strong conference while he averaged 29/7/6 in the playoffs..

but according to Kobe hater's his 2nd ring wouildn't be on the same level as Lebrons

:roll: :roll:

[SexSymbol]

That just wasn't true in the finals. There's a case for 2002, where he was still overshadowed by Shaq, but his finals lines in 2000 and 2001 are not "better than a lot of 1st option numbers." What a ridiculous statement.
We're not only talking finals.
Why aren't you mentioning WCFs where he averages 29-30+ points against best teams that Lakers had to face those years? Your agenda is so obvious and so stupid.
That team was Shaq as 1a and Kobe as 1b and even though Shaq was somewhat better, it doesn't make Kobe's rings "regular 2nd option rings", LeBron in 2013 didn't do as much as Kobe did in 01

[Derka]

Top 10 all-time.

[SexSymbol]

Would he have won anything without Shaq? No. A second option ring is a second option ring.
What an idiot, god damn

[ImKobe]

We're not only talking finals.
Why aren't you mentioning WCFs where he averages 29-30+ points against best teams that Lakers had to face those years? Your agenda is so obvious and so stupid.
That team was Shaq as 1a and Kobe as 1b and even though Shaq was somewhat better, it doesn't make Kobe's rings "regular 2nd option rings", LeBron in 2013 didn't do as much as Kobe did in 01

And remember, Kobe during the 3-peat played under the old rules, where players were still allowed to hand check.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Would he have won anything without Shaq? No. A second option ring is a second option ring.

he made 3 straight finals without Shaq, won 2 rings and 2 FMVP..

this isn't 2006 anymore.. that argument died...

Kobe did more without Shaq than Shaq ever did before or after he got Kobe

but if you really believe that Kobe's ring and Vernon Maxwell's rings are on the same level because they were "second options" (BTW since when did the 2nd option attempt the most shots? :lol ) then you're an idiot

[Rose'sACL]

It's not about the numbers, man. Did you even watch the games that you are trying to talk about? Even LeBron fans were jumping ship at the time during the game. Was a funny time to be honest.
i watched the game. if that was lebron quitting then there have been a lot of times kobe has quit in worse fashion. he has just played in a larger market so if a lot of fans start believing lies then it sort of catches on like the one about lakers not talking to kobe or his agent before giving him his current deal. any guy who has been even remotely in touch with any pro player in any pro league would tell you that it is a lie unless the player is in hot demand and even then agents are called.

[TheMarkMadsen]

You heard it hear first folks

01 Kobe and 94 Vernon Maxwell's rings are on the same level


:roll: :roll: @ how desperate Kobe haters are getting these days

[34-24 Footwork]

Lol....

Look at the number of guards on people's top 10. Kobe/Jordan/Magic.

The fact that people use Shaq's FG% as a barometer of greatness over Kobe speaks to Kobe's greatness. Haters don't know that they're doing this. Totally oblivious to it.

In a big man's game, Kobe makes the cut. That's crazy.

Top 3 Skilled- Hakeem, Kobe, Jordan
Top 2 Shooting Guard-Jordan-Kobe
Top 5 Career- Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, Kobe
Top 2 Guard Scorer- Jordan-Kobe (45% shooter off of contested jump shots-crazy shit)

Top 5 scorer in NBA history.


Top 10 player in history- Rings, points, international legend, career Laker, skills

Achieved all of his accolades and accomplishments in the toughest conference.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

We're not only talking finals.
Why aren't you mentioning WCFs where he averages 29-30+ points against best teams that Lakers had to face those years? Your agenda is so obvious and so stupid.
That team was Shaq as 1a and Kobe as 1b and even though Shaq was somewhat better, it doesn't make Kobe's rings "regular 2nd option rings", LeBron in 2013 didn't do as much as Kobe did in 01

Because I said 'finals.' :confusedshrug:

2001 WCF was the only one of the three where Kobe had a case over Shaq. It's not a 1a/1b relationship, as much as you want to believe that it was. Shaq was the key to those teams, he was why they won.

You accuse me of having an agenda? Damn dude, that hypocrisy.

[Bernkastel]

Lower-end top ten.

[SexSymbol]

Because I said 'finals.' :confusedshrug:

2001 WCF was the only one of the three where Kobe had a case over Shaq. It's not a 1a/1b relationship, as much as you want to believe that it was. Shaq was the key to those teams, he was why they won.

You accuse me of having an agenda? Damn dude, that hypocrisy.
Kobe's been amazingly clutch in 00 and also all-around great in 02.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I think I'm at the point where I can't respond to Madsen so long as he's still making that retarded 'FGA' argument. Because FGA > FGM. :rolleyes: Find a new schtick.

What all of the stans aren't realizing is that I've still got Kobe at 11. So much butthurt over him not making a top-10 list where every guy on there has a case over him for a spot.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I think I'm at the point where I can't respond to Madsen so long as he's still making that retarded 'FGA' argument. Because FGA > FGM. :rolleyes: Find a new schtick.

What all of the stans aren't realizing is that I've still got Kobe at 11. So much butthurt over him not making a top-10 list where every guy on there has a case over him for a spot.

dude, you're in this thread claiming 01 Kobe and 94 Maxwell's rings are on the same level because your simple ass thinks "a second option ring is a second option ring" and you have the nerve to call anybody else's opinion stupid?

:roll:

you won't respond to me because you're getting ether'd left and right :lol

[SexSymbol]

I think I'm at the point where I can't respond to Madsen so long as he's still making that retarded 'FGA' argument. Because FGA > FGM. :rolleyes: Find a new schtick.

What all of the stans aren't realizing is that I've still got Kobe at 11. So much butthurt over him not making a top-10 list where every guy on there has a case over him for a spot.
It's not about FGA>FGM, it's about who the offense was centered around, and it was Kobe, he was the PG and arguably the first option on offense.

[ImKobe]

Because I said 'finals.' :confusedshrug:

2001 WCF was the only one of the three where Kobe had a case over Shaq. It's not a 1a/1b relationship, as much as you want to believe that it was. Shaq was the key to those teams, he was why they won.

You accuse me of having an agenda? Damn dude, that hypocrisy.

Kobe through first 3 rounds

31.6/7.0/6.2/1.6 on 49,2% FG 3 TOV, 24.2 GmSc

Shaq

29.3/15.3/2.5/1.9 on 54,7%FG 3.4 TOV, 22.6 GmSc

Kobe in the 4 straight road games vs Kings & Spurs

39.3/10.0/4.0/1.8 on 50% FG, 3 TOV

Shaq

23.3/13.3/2.3/1.5 on 50%FG, 4 TOV

Kobe had the better numbers against the best competition and on the road, Shaq had the better numbers against the worst competition and at home, stats don't lie.

[HOoopCityJones]

Rat poison all through this thread.

[34-24 Footwork]

The problem with this board is that it's filled with kids who grew up watching Terrence Ross and Demar Derozan and think that these type of players are great. Never got to see any real talented players.

Most people on this board look up to career losers or players that lose more than they win.

[Rose'sACL]

Lebron's 2nd ring came during a lock out season in a historically weak conference while he averaged 26/8/6 on the playoffs..

Kobe's 2nd ring came in a historical strong conference while he averaged 29/7/6 in the playoffs..

but according to Kobe hater's his 2nd ring wouildn't be on the same level as Lebrons

:roll: :roll:
the same weak conference which made them play more games than thunder had to reach the finals? that same thunder got lost 1-4.


The problem with this board is that it's filled with kids who grew up watching Terrence Ross and Demar Derozan and think that these type of players are great. Never got to see any real talented players.

Most people on this board look up to career losers or players that lose more than they win.
no one thinks that those players are good let alone great. why do people talk like prime kobe was a million years ago?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

It's not about FGA>FGM, it's about who the offense was centered around, and it was Kobe, he was the PG and arguably the first option on offense.

Oh, his argument is. I can remember a handful of agenda threads where he listed the players with the most FGA since 2000 (?) and used that as proof that Kobe was the best playoff performer in that time.

I still rank Kobe 11th all-time, I just don't buy that he was better than Shaq for those three rings.

What I really hate is how the stans took this from a solid thread that actually created a legitimate discussion about all-time placing to one arguing that Kobe was on a level with Shaq for three championships (which just isn't true).

[SexSymbol]

the same weak conference which made them play more games than thunder had to reach the finals? that same thunder got lost 1-4.


no one thinks that those players are good let alone great. why do people talk like prime kobe was a million years ago?
Oh wow, there's actually a human who's trying to argue that EC wasn't historically weak.
Wooooow. Some of you guys go into the darkest places due to your stupid agenda.

[34-24 Footwork]

Kobe through first 3 rounds

31.6/7.0/6.2/1.6 on 49,2% FG 3 TOV, 24.2 GmSc

Shaq

29.3/15.3/2.5/1.9 on 54,7%FG 3.4 TOV, 22.6 GmSc

Kobe in the 4 straight road games vs Kings & Spurs

39.3/10.0/4.0/1.8 on 50% FG, 3 TOV

Shaq

23.3/13.3/2.3/1.5 on 50%FG, 4 TOV

Kobe had the better numbers against the best competition and on the road, Shaq had the better numbers against the worst competition and at home, stats don't lie.


This is the nail in the coffin. IDGAF about what Shaq does against keith van horn in the finals. Lol. Kobe had to focus on Kidd, Kittles, Richard Jefferson, Allen Iverson and Reggie Miller.

Shaq got a bulimic Mutombo, Van horn and Smits. Lol.

This board lacks context because nobody was around back then except a few.

[Showtime2001]

Because I said 'finals.' :confusedshrug:

2001 WCF was the only one of the three where Kobe had a case over Shaq. It's not a 1a/1b relationship, as much as you want to believe that it was. Shaq was the key to those teams, he was why they won.

You accuse me of having an agenda? Damn dude, that hypocrisy.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6067/6081114162_eae14ba471_o.gif

http://s4.postimg.org/g3com90kt/11117335_10205494142207211_587409578_n_jpg_oh_46.j pg


"carried" doe :lol

[34-24 Footwork]

the same weak conference which made them play more games than thunder had to reach the finals? that same thunder got lost 1-4.


no one thinks that those players are good let alone great. why do people talk like prime kobe was a million years ago?


How older were you then? No lie. Were you like 12?

[Rose'sACL]

Oh wow, there's actually a human who's trying to argue that EC was historically weak.
Wooooow. Some of you guys go into the darkest places due to your stupid agenda.
it wasn't historically weak. even this year's east isn't that weak. it is weaker than the west. cavs and hawks will defeat pelicans, memphis and dallas. memphis will probably take it to 6 at most.
bulls too would defeat dallas and pelicans. they would only certainly lose to the spurs among 5-8 seeds from the west.

[Rose'sACL]

How older were you then? No lie. Were you like 12?
when exactly? i am 28 right now. just because i disagree with you doesn't mean that i am a kid or that i believe that unicorns exist.

[ImKobe]

This is the nail in the coffin. IDGAF about what Shaq does against keith van horn in the finals. Lol. Kobe had to focus on Kidd, Kittles, Richard Jefferson, Allen Iverson and Reggie Miller.

Shaq got a bulimic Mutombo, Van horn and Smits. Lol.

This board lacks context because nobody was around back then except a few.

Seriously...dude was playing like prime Jordan out there at 21 years of age, and they use Shaq to discredit his all-time ranking? who gives a shit about what Shaq did against the worst competition they faced in the Finals.

They both were equally important to winning 3 straight, Shaq for the most part has efficiency/numbers in his favor because he played under the basket and was fed the ball while Kobe ran the offense and shot contested jumpers.

[SexSymbol]

it wasn't historically weak. even this year's east isn't that weak. it is weaker than the west. cavs and hawks will defeat pelicans, memphis and dallas. memphis will probably take it to 6 at most.
bulls too would defeat dallas and pelicans. they would only certainly lose to the spurs among 5-8 seeds from the west.
What a trainwreck of an opinion, no facts whatsover.
East are pathetic for at least 5 years now, multiple teams with <0.500s
There's 10 teams with less than 0.500s, never before happened in the NBA.
Last time 3 teams with <0.500 made the playoffs in the east was 1992

[34-24 Footwork]

when exactly? i am 28 right now. just because i disagree with you doesn't mean that i am a kid or that i believe that unicorns exist.


Thinking that 10 people had a better career than Kobe is really stupid and your adolescence bleeds through every post. Placing Kobe anywhere less than 7 means that you intentionally created a criteria than tries to go against Kobe. Lol.

How else does Jordan say that kobe is the only player on his level but you say there's 10-12 better players? Lol

[ShawkFactory]

Seriously...dude was playing like prime Jordan out there at 21 years of age, and they use Shaq to discredit his all-time ranking? who gives a shit about what Shaq did against the worst competition they faced in the Finals.

They both were equally important to winning 3 straight, Shaq for the most part has efficiency/numbers in his favor because he played under the basket and was fed the ball while Kobe ran the offense and shot contested jumpers.
You don't seem to be crediting Shaqs impact beyond his incredible numbers. I'm never one to say Kobe was second banana, but Shaq was the biggest worry. And the best player in the NBA for those 3 years.

[ImKobe]

Thinking that 10 people had a better career than Kobe is really stupid and your adolescence bleeds through every post. Placing Kobe anywhere less than 7 means that you intentionally created a criteria than tries to go against Kobe. Lol.

How else does Jordan say that kobe is the only player on his level but you say there's 10-12 better players? Lol

Magic, Shaq & West say that Kobe's the greatest Laker ever
Jordan says Kobe is the only player that could beat him and play on his level

I'll take their word for it.

[Rose'sACL]

What a trainwreck of an opinion, no facts whatsover.
East are pathetic for at least 5 years now, multiple teams with <0.500s
There's 10 teams with less than 0.500s, never before happened in the NBA.
Last time 3 teams with <0.500 made the playoffs in the east was 1992
what about the time when 3 teams with sub-.500 records made the playoffs. it was in 86 even before the expansion era so no excuses for new teams being in league or too many teams being in the league. are you taking away magic's and bird's championships now?

[Rose'sACL]

Magic, Shaq & West say that Kobe's the greatest Laker ever
Jordan says Kobe is the only player that could beat him and play on his level

I'll take their word for it.
magic also says that lebron still has a good shot at being the GOAT by the time he retires. you clearly don't believe him there.
west said in 2009 that lebron is better than kobe. i am sure you didn't agree with him then.

[SwayDizzle]

You don't seem to be crediting Shaqs impact beyond his incredible numbers. I'm never one to say Kobe was second banana, but Shaq was the biggest worry. And the best player in the NBA for those 3 years.
It's true, Shaq was the main worry for opposing teams and also was the best player in the NBA during that stretch. However, Kobe surpassed him as a player. Kobe currently ranks 6th on the all time list. If you are a Duncan fan, I can understand why you would put him at #6 and Kobe at #7, but there is no way Kobe is ranked lower than that.

[ImKobe]

You don't seem to be crediting Shaqs impact beyond his incredible numbers. I'm never one to say Kobe was second banana, but Shaq was the biggest worry. And the best player in the NBA for those 3 years.

So? How does that take anything away from Kobe's accomplishments? No one else came close to the level of dominance with Shaq outside of Kobe. Kobe won 3 rings putting up great numbers with Shaq, Kobe led teams to 3 straight Finals without him, Kobe's outscored a Finals team through 3 quarters and has the most dominant scoring performance in NBA history that we have footage of. Easily one of the best longetivitys in the game from 00-13.

Him and Shaq won those titles together, Kobe proved he could go to 3 straight Finals without him as well...

all-time ranking isn't just numbers or talent, it's also accomplishments and the entire career. You consider everything he did during his time in the league and he's easily in the same tier as Jordan, Kareem, Bird, Magic..

[ImKobe]

magic also says that lebron still has a good shot at being the GOAT by the time he retires. you clearly don't believe him there.
west said in 2009 that lebron is better than kobe. i am sure you didn't agree with him then.

People have different opinions, but every all-time great that has spoken on Kobe has put him on their level or even beyond, I'll regard their opinion a little higher than something said on an online forum.

And Lebron in 09 said Kobe was the best player in the league.

[Showtime2001]

You don't seem to be crediting Shaqs impact beyond his incredible numbers. I'm never one to say Kobe was second banana, but Shaq was the biggest worry. And the best player in the NBA for those 3 years.
They both were the biggest worries you take Shaq or Kobe off the 3 peat Lakers and the teams win absolutely nothing.

[ImKobe]

They both were the biggest worries you take Shaq or Kobe off the 3 peat Lakers and the teams win absolutely nothing.

Both played their role to the fullest, they both deserve credit for it. We aren't discounting Magic's or Kareem's accomplishments.

[Showtime2001]

Both played their role to the fullest, they both deserve credit for it. We aren't discounting Magic's or Kareem's accomplishments.
It's the Kobe double standard did you forget?

- Duncan's last 2 rings count

- Magic's rings in 85' and 88' count

- Kareem's rings in 80', 82', 87' and 88' count

- Bird's first ring counts

But Kobe's first 3 rings don't count because its just a "second option ring" :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

Nobodies discrediting Kobe. Saying that Shaq was the more important player at that time is not a knock on him. He was. He couldn't have won 3 times in a row without Kobe, but Kobe isn't the only one. Do we not think you could have put someone like Wade in that spot and they don't still win? Shaq was the most irreplaceable player on those squads.

[Showtime2001]

Nobodies discrediting Kobe. Saying that Shaq was the more important player at that time is not a knock on him. He was. He couldn't have won 3 times in a row without Kobe, but Kobe isn't the only one. Do we not think you could have put someone like Wade in that spot and they don't still win? Shaq was the most irreplaceable player on those squads.
I could very easily replace Shaq with Duncan if you want to go there.

[ShawkFactory]

I could very easily replace Shaq with Duncan if you want to go there.
Yea but many consider Duncan a top 5-7 player of all time. So it's not the same.

You could replace Kobe with any elite SG and likely have the same results.

[Showtime2001]

Yea but many consider Duncan a top 5-7 player of all time. So it's not the same
Yes it is the same.


You could replace Kobe with any elite SG and likely have the same results.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/1995NBAFinals.png/185px-1995NBAFinals.png

http://images.rapgenius.com/d0ba06d9a5adcbf977793bfdf24bfc38.600x411x1.jpg

https://themcginnismessage.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/sweep.jpg

[ShawkFactory]

Yes it is the same.
How. Read the second part.

[SexSymbol]

Yea but many consider Duncan a top 5-7 player of all time. So it's not the same.

You could replace Kobe with any elite SG and likely have the same results.
Not really, who? Iverson? Not a chance, he wasn't half of a defender that Kobe was and Kobe's a better playmaker and much more clutch.

[ShawkFactory]

Not really, who? Iverson? Not a chance, he wasn't half of a defender that Kobe was and Kobe's a better playmaker and much more clutch.
Someone like Wade, drexler, etc

[ShawkFactory]

Yes it is the same.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/1995NBAFinals.png/185px-1995NBAFinals.png

http://images.rapgenius.com/d0ba06d9a5adcbf977793bfdf24bfc38.600x411x1.jpg

https://themcginnismessage.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/sweep.jpg
Was 95 peak Shaq? **** outta here

[Showtime2001]

Was 95 peak Shaq? **** outta here
Nice excuse for a dominant center who couldn't get it done with another elite SG.

:lol

[ShawkFactory]

Nice excuse for a dominant center who couldn't get it done with another elite SG.

:lol
No point arguing with you

[Showtime2001]

No point arguing with you
You never made an argument I just pointed out your double standard dude.

[SexSymbol]

Someone like Wade, drexler, etc
Oh sure, because they've shown that dominance and longevity of Kobe :facepalm
Just stop being biased

[Shih508]

Not really, who? Iverson? Not a chance, he wasn't half of a defender that Kobe was and Kobe's a better playmaker and much more clutch.

AI was better than kobe from 99-01 for sure. T-Mac and VC would prolly got same results if not better.

[ShawkFactory]

Oh sure, because they've shown that dominance and longevity of Kobe :facepalm
Just stop being biased
I didn't say Wade/drexler > Kobe. Kobe from 03-09 is why he's in my top 10. I just think you could take any elite SG and the 00-02 Lakers still win.

And no, Penny is not the type of player I'm talking about. And no, 95 Shaq =\= 2000-2002 Shaq. There's no double standard you just don't understand context or what I was saying at all.

[Showtime2001]

I didn't say Wade/drexler > Kobe. Kobe from 03-09 is why he's in my top 10. I just think you could take any elite SG and the 00-02 Lakers still win.

And no, Penny is not the type of player I'm talking about. And no, 95 Shaq =\= 2000-2002 Shaq. There's no double standard you just don't understand context or what I was saying at all.
You could replace Shaq with Duncan during the Lakers 3 peat and still win just like you claim Kobe is replaceable with another great sg.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I didn't say Wade/drexler > Kobe. Kobe from 03-09 is why he's in my top 10. I just think you could take any elite SG and the 00-02 Lakers still win.

And no, Penny is not the type of player I'm talking about. And no, 95 Shaq =\= 2000-2002 Shaq. There's no double standard you just don't understand context or what I was saying at all.


So you just think any elite shooting guard can replace 25/5/5 over 3 years worth of championship runs on all nba defense? Including series where said shooting guard would have to out play Shaq in order for the Lakers to win?

At ages 21 & 22..

While leading the NBA in 4th quarter playoff scoring

That's just stupid...

You can think what you want, but the facts show that Shaq never got close to repeating anywhere near the success he had with Kobe with another player.

Meanwhile, Kobe was 2 games away from 3peating without Shaq.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Never disagreed I just pointed out that it was nonsense to claim that Kobe was easily replaceable.

I didn't mean to quote you I meant to quote The other poster who is claiming that Kobe was easily replaceable.

[Showtime2001]

I don't get how Kobe was replaceable when he was better than all those other elite SG's

[TheMarkMadsen]

I don't get how Kobe was replaceable when he was better than all those other elite SG's

he wasn't replaceable.. especially not in 01 and 02 when he was putting up better numbers than a lot 1st options who have won championships..

For instance

01 Kobe - 29/7/6

13 Lebron - 26/8/6

...and leading the entire league in 4th quarter playoff scoring

in 2000 he was the best perimeter defender in the game, and played his role perfectly stepping up when Shaq was out and had that historic game 7 against Portland..

[Showtime2001]

he wasn't replaceable.. especially not in 01 and 02 when he was putting up better numbers than a lot 1st options who have won championships..

For instance

01 Kobe - 29/7/6

13 Lebron - 26/8/6

...and leading the entire league in 4th quarter playoff scoring

in 2000 he was the best perimeter defender in the game, and played his role perfectly stepping up when Shaq was out and had that historic game 7 against Portland..
:applause:

http://s1.postimg.org/ornlrhb0f/11178483_10205585788898321_2026232658_n_jpg_oh_f.j pg

[34-24 Footwork]

:applause:

http://s1.postimg.org/ornlrhb0f/11178483_10205585788898321_2026232658_n_jpg_oh_f.j pg


/////thread. It's over and there NO comeback for this.

[mehyaM24]

top 10-15.

what hurts kobe is, he doesn't have the impact as most guys with similar accolades & team success.

[COnDEMnED]

top 10-15.

what hurts kobe is, he doesn't have the impact as most guys with similar accolades & team success.
Honest question. Who has similar accolades and team success that had more of an impact than Kobe? How do you personally gauge "impact"? Stats? eye test? Both?

[HOoopCityJones]

:applause:

http://s1.postimg.org/ornlrhb0f/11178483_10205585788898321_2026232658_n_jpg_oh_f.j pg

Ether.

[ShawkFactory]

I didn't mean to quote you I meant to quote The other poster who is claiming that Kobe was easily replaceable.
Goddamn you Kobe stans come in like a house of fire at any sign of someone not sucking his dick like you guys.

I didn't say he was easily replaceable. Read the conversation again. I said Shaq was MORE irreplaceable. These are not even close to the same thing.

Nor did I ever say he was carried by Shaq. I actually said that Shaq wouldn't have won without Kobe. So that Lebron/Kobe meme has no part in this argument. Unless it makes you feel good to post it. If so, then by all means...