Scottie "I'm Ghost" Pippen - the two worst Finals ever for a 2nd option?

[3ball]

1996 Finals: 15 PPG / 34% FG / 42% TS

1998 Finals: 15 PPG / 41% FG / 50% TS


The worst 2nd option performances ever on the big stage?

Of course, there's also the 1990 ECF, but that wasn't the Finals.

[iTare]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9QjARWd5a84/T3OXHJJbe1I/AAAAAAAAA34/OVtLNvwpMvI/s190/nod-of-approval.gif

[StephHamann]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9QjARWd5a84/T3OXHJJbe1I/AAAAAAAAA34/OVtLNvwpMvI/s190/nod-of-approval.gif

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pippen was atrocious offensively in the playoffs through out 2nd three peat.

[Mr Feeny]

Pippen was atrocious offensively in the playoffs through out 2nd three peat.

How about defensively?

[JebronLames]

Worst was 2013 wade. Heat were better with him on the bench. Can't say that for any other second option.

[SamuraiSWISH]

How about defensively?
Is this thread asking how he was defensively?

[Mr Feeny]

Worst was 2013 wade. Heat were better with him on the bench. Can't say that for any other second option.That's true. They lost their lead when he came back in at the end of game 6. It was awkward. Wasn't himself that year with the injuries. How Lebron managed to win with that dross is beyond me.

[Mr Feeny]

Is this thread asking how he was defensively?It's asking about a 2nd option as a whole. You chose to focus on one side of the court for some odd reason. I wonder why

[Rose'sACL]

It's asking about a 2nd option as a whole. You chose to focus on one side of the court for some odd reason. I wonder why
bulls had the best rebounder in the game which played great defense.
truth is that mid to late 90s had only bulls as the stand out team.
00s had at least 2 great teams in lakers and spurs. 10s have also produced at least 2 in miami and spurs.

[Dresta]

Bron stans really can't not bring their agenda to every single thread

:facepalm

You guys are like ****ing leeches.

[LEFT4DEAD]

1996 Finals: 15 PPG / 34% FG / 42% TS 8.2RPG , 5.3APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.3 BPG

1998 Finals: 15 PPG / 41% FG / 50% TS, 6.8RPG, 4,8APG, 1.7SPG, 0.8BPG


The worst 2nd option performances ever on the big stage?

Of course, there's also the 1990 ECF, but that wasn't the Finals.
Fixed.

94 NBA FINALS:
Vernon Maxwell: 13.4ppg on 36%FG 3.3RPG, 2.9APG, 0.6SPG, 0.0BPG

2000 NBA FINALS:
Kobe Bryant: 15.6ppg on 36%FG, 4.6RPG, 4.2APG, 1.0SPG, 1.4BPG

2003 NBA FINALS:
Tony Parker: 14.0ppg on 38%FG, 3.2RPG, 4.2APG, 0.3SPG, 0.2BPG

2006 NBA FINALS:
Walker/O'neal: 13.8/13.7 ppg

And its just in the last 20 years. And I missed some I think.

[SamuraiSWISH]

It's asking about a 2nd option as a whole. You chose to focus on one side of the court for some odd reason. I wonder why
OP clearly talking about his horrific offensive performance in the 2nd three peat. Thus the stats. Obviously Pip was studly defensively in both three peats. Don't be so insecure. You're overly temperamental. Period blood all over your key board.

[Mr Feeny]

OP clearly talking about his horrific offensive performance in the 2nd three peat. Thus the stats. Obviously Pip was studly defensively in both three peats. Don't be so insecure. You're overly temperamental. Period blood all over your key board.You seem really wound up. Did he mention that he was talking exclusively about offense.
keep up the negs and ad hominems. You know I've got you riled up:oldlol:

[RepMe]

Doesn't matter if the OP is right, he needs to get MJ's dick out of his mouth.

[3ball]

truth is that mid to late 90s had only bulls as the stand out team.
00s had at least 2 great teams in lakers and spurs. 10s have also produced at least 2 in miami and spurs.


When you think about the 90's Bulls - think Spurs genius and superior strategy, with Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen executing it.. GOAT strategy and GOAT wing athleticism.

The 90's Bulls were the only team in history to have both - accordingly, the 90's Bulls were more dominant than any of the teams you mentioned.. So even though the 90's had several great teams, the Bulls existed, so these teams never won championships like the Spurs, Lakers and Miami do today..

For example, if the 90's Bulls played specifically between 2011 and 2014, Miami would have zero rings.. If they played in the early 2000's, the Lakers and Spurs might have 1 ring apiece - the Spurs might not have any.

[Rose'sACL]

When you think about the 90's Bulls - think Spurs genius and superior strategy, with Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen executing it.. GOAT strategy and GOAT wing athleticism.

The 90's Bulls were the only team in history to have both - accordingly, the 90's Bulls were more dominant than any of the teams you mentioned.. So even though the 90's had several great teams, the Bulls existed, so these teams never won championships like the Spurs, Lakers and Miami do today..

For example, if the 90's Bulls played specifically between 2011 and 2014, Miami would have zero rings.. If they played in the early 2000's, the Lakers and Spurs might have 1 ring apiece - the Spurs might not have any.
i will take 00s lakers, 2014 spurs and 2012 heat over any team the bulls faced in the finals in the 90s.

[Angel Face]

Why you hatin on Pippen 3Ball? Those 2 series was one of the toughest defensive finals series, especially '96, Even MJ under performed that series.

[34-24 Footwork]

Fixed.

94 NBA FINALS:
Vernon Maxwell: 13.4ppg on 36%FG 3.3RPG, 2.9APG, 0.6SPG, 0.0BPG

2000 NBA FINALS:
Kobe Bryant: 15.6ppg on 36%FG, 4.6RPG, 4.2APG, 1.0SPG, 1.4BPG

2003 NBA FINALS:
Tony Parker: 14.0ppg on 38%FG, 3.2RPG, 4.2APG, 0.3SPG, 0.2BPG

2006 NBA FINALS:
Walker/O'neal: 13.8/13.7 ppg

And its just in the last 20 years. And I missed some I think.


Are you gonna give context to the 2000 series, or are you gonna just be a little f@ggot and not mention Jalen Rose?

[hahaitme]

When you think about the 90's Bulls - think Spurs genius and superior strategy, with Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen executing it.. GOAT strategy and GOAT wing athleticism.

The 90's Bulls were the only team in history to have both - accordingly, the 90's Bulls were more dominant than any of the teams you mentioned.. So even though the 90's had several great teams, the Bulls existed, so these teams never won championships like the Spurs, Lakers and Miami do today..

For example, if the 90's Bulls played specifically between 2011 and 2014, Miami would have zero rings.. If they played in the early 2000's, the Lakers and Spurs might have 1 ring apiece - the Spurs might not have any.

I don't get it are you ragging on Pippen or praising him now?
It's like you're the anti-madonna

[Smoke117]

You try too hard.

[Ne 1]

1998 Finals: 15 PPG / 41% FG / 50% TS


Actually, a lot of people felt that Scottie deserved the 1998 Finals MVP, his defense was the key in the series. Journalists who watched the series, watched him almost single handedly shut down the Jazz knew what was up. When the Bulls had the 3-1 lead, Pippen seemed to be the favorite to win it but then Jordan hitting "the shot" in the game 6 swung it away from him.

Here's the Chicago Tribune:


FINALS MVP? THIS TIME, PIPPEN DESERVES IT


(Scottie) Pippen scored 28 points Wednesday night, again was disruptive on defense and was a rebounding force for the Bulls, who defeated the Utah Jazz 86-82 to take a 3-1 lead in the NBA Finals.

(Michael) Jordan, of course, was the game's leading scorer with 34 points and Dennis Rodman made several crucial free throws down the stretch to go with 14 rebounds. But it was Pippen again with an impressive all-around game.

Daily Herald:

If Bulls win, Pippen deserves MVP




If the Bulls win tonight and clinch their sixth world championship, Scottie Pippen should be named the MVP of the NBA Finals. There's absolutely no reason the voters shouldn't pick him. I mean, Scottie has really been the driving force behind the Bulls success against Utah. His energy on the defensive end and his ability to push the ball up the floor have set the tempo for the entire series. His aggressive, nagging defense has been the ..."


Others...


Pippen in race with Jordan for MVP


Reiterating he's playing his last season with the Chicago Bulls, [Scottie Pippen] has the ability to wrest the NBA final most valuable player award away from [Michael Jordan], who's won it in each of the five previous championships he's played.

Bulls' Scottie Pippen, driving against Utah's Jeff Hornacek in Game 4, has been spectacular and dominant throughout the final series.




Pippen has earned MVP nod


Scottie Pippen has at least one vote for the National Basketball Association Finals' most valuable player award. Based on the way that he has led the Chicago Bulls' tenacious defense in the NBA Finals, he's likely to have quite a few more supporters when the ballots are handed out during Game 5.


People remember ''the shot'' but they don't remember that MJ was 15/41 in fourth quarters of that series. His play down the stretch and Pippen's defensive dominance was pushing the media to vote for Pippen, but people have short memories and when MJ hit ''the shot'' everyone immediately forgot about what Pip did defensively that series (really think they'd give Pippen the MVP after a MJ moment like that one?). Too bad for Scottie, after Bulls took the 3-1, everyone was leaning towards him for the MVP.

[jzek]

What about Wade in the last two finals? Something like 14PPG? :facepalm

[Mr Feeny]

Actually, a lot of people felt that Scottie deserved the 1998 Finals MVP, his defense was the key in the series. Journalists who watched the series, watched him almost single handedly shut down the Jazz knew what was up. When the Bulls had the 3-1 lead, Pippen seemed to be the favorite to win it but then Jordan hitting "the shot" in the game 6 swung it away from him.

Here's the Chicago Tribune:





Daily Herald:





Others...










People remember ''the shot'' but they don't remember that MJ was 15/41 in fourth quarters of that series. His play down the stretch and Pippen's defensive dominance was pushing the media to vote for Pippen, but people have short memories and when MJ hit ''the shot'' everyone immediately forgot about what Pip did defensively that series (really think they'd give Pippen the MVP after a MJ moment like that one?). Too bad for Scottie, after Bulls took the 3-1, everyone was leaning towards him for the MVP.

Why are you bringing in opinions after game 4 of that series?
Unfortunately for you, 4 games are not the series. Pippen had a 2-16 dross of a performance in game 5 and an 8 point game 6 while MJ finished with 45 points including a make, a steal off Karl Malone and the title winning shot.

[Wade's Rings]

What about Wade in the last two finals? Something like 14PPG? :facepalm

In 2013 he won them Game 4. In Game 5 he brought the Heat back from 20+ down and makes it a 1 point Game; Spo subs Wade out for Lebron and the Heat immediately lose their Momentum and within 2-3 Minutes are back down by 10+ Points. He played well in Game 7.

In 2014 he was garbage, 15/4/3 with no Defense.

[Mr Feeny]

In 2013 he won them Game 4. In Game 5 he brought the Heat back from 20+ down and makes it a 1 point Game; Spo subs Wade out for Lebron and the Heat immediately lose their Momentum and within 2-3 Minutes are back down by 10+ Points. He played well in Game 7.

In 2014 he was garbage, 15/4/3 with no Defense.

I think he had a negative plus -minus though for the series. And Miami lost their lead when he came in with 2 minutes to go in game 6. Just an observation.

[nba_55]

In 2013 he won them Game 4. In Game 5 he brought the Heat back from 20+ down and makes it a 1 point Game; Spo subs Wade out for Lebron and the Heat immediately lose their Momentum and within 2-3 Minutes are back down by 10+ Points. He played well in Game 7.

In 2014 he was garbage, 15/4/3 with no Defense.

He almost lost them game 6 and was very average overall in the playoffs: 16 ppg on 46 % with average defense.

[Im so nba'd out]

Fixed.

94 NBA FINALS:
Vernon Maxwell: 13.4ppg on 36%FG 3.3RPG, 2.9APG, 0.6SPG, 0.0BPG

2000 NBA FINALS:
Kobe Bryant: 15.6ppg on 36%FG, 4.6RPG, 4.2APG, 1.0SPG, 1.4BPG

2003 NBA FINALS:
Tony Parker: 14.0ppg on 38%FG, 3.2RPG, 4.2APG, 0.3SPG, 0.2BPG

2006 NBA FINALS:
Walker/O'neal: 13.8/13.7 ppg

And its just in the last 20 years. And I missed some I think.
HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!! DID HE REALLY PUT UP SUCH BELOW AVERAGE NUMBERS ON THE BIG STAGE!TO THINK I HAD HIM IN MY TOP 10.NO MORE... NEVER AGAIN:facepalm IM DONE WITH THE RAPIST!

[Roundball_Rock]

Actually, a lot of people felt that Scottie deserved the 1998 Finals MVP, his defense was the key in the series. Journalists who watched the series, watched him almost single handedly shut down the Jazz knew what was up. When the Bulls had the 3-1 lead, Pippen seemed to be the favorite to win it but then Jordan hitting "the shot" in the game 6 swung it away from him.

Here's the Chicago Tribune:





Daily Herald:





Others...










People remember ''the shot'' but they don't remember that MJ was 15/41 in fourth quarters of that series. His play down the stretch and Pippen's defensive dominance was pushing the media to vote for Pippen, but people have short memories and when MJ hit ''the shot'' everyone immediately forgot about what Pip did defensively that series (really think they'd give Pippen the MVP after a MJ moment like that one?). Too bad for Scottie, after Bulls took the 3-1, everyone was leaning towards him for the MVP.

Exactly. :oldlol: It is revealing that so many MJ stans point to the 98' Finals as a poor performance for Pippen. It is obvious many of them simply did not watch the series. Pippen previous to his back injury dominated the series more than a perimeter player ever has imo in a series on the defensive end. Keep in mind MJ was the #4 option on defense in that series--Harper guarded Stockton, Rodman Malone and Pippen played the "roving linebacker" role disrupting the #1 ranked Utah defense.

Pippen played in 6 Finals and had only 1 poor one, 96', when he had multiple injuries. It is comical to try to paint him as a poor Finals performer. Pippen was excellent in the 91' (ask Magic Johnson--the Bulls were facing a 0-2 deficit before Pippen came to the rescue), 92', 97', 98' Finals and very good in 93' too.

[T_L_P]

2003 Parker: 14 PPG, 38% FG, 45% TS

And Parker is one of the weaker defenders we've had in the league. Scottie is arguably the GOAT perimeter defender.

Scottie's aren't even close to being the worst.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Are you gonna give context to the 2000 series, or are you gonna just be a little f@ggot and not mention Jalen Rose?
Kobe Bryant was one of the worst 2nd options all time in that finals.
http://whatgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/funny-gifs-deal-with-it.gif

[RRR3]

That gif :oldlol:

[hitmanyr2k]

1996 Finals: 15 PPG / 34% FG / 42% TS

1998 Finals: 15 PPG / 41% FG / 50% TS


The worst 2nd option performances ever on the big stage?

Of course, there's also the 1990 ECF, but that wasn't the Finals.

Both series hobbled by injury but played through it anyway. The mileage started taking its toll on Pippen in the '96 season and from then on he was often playing injured much like Wade in the later Miami Heat runs. Pippen was playing some of his best basketball ever in '96 but his body broke down in February and his numbers dipped severely in March and April. He wasn't healthy at all for the entire '96 playoff run with an assortment of injuries. In '97 he had a pretty good run until late in the ECF against Miami where he injured his foot early in Game 5 and had to play on one leg in the Finals (still played damn good) which lead to surgery before the '98 season. The '98 playoffs is where he was at his best defensively. Even in games where he scored low his defensive impact was so huge (mainly against the Hornets, Pacers and Jazz) that it couldn't be ignored.

This game is where the back injury started and plagued him until the end of the '98 playoffs but he played through it anyway and again had back surgery at the end of the season.

https://youtu.be/0Yh4qNNJIBQ?t=3m15s

In the same game Bob Costas sums up his game perfectly and Isiah calls him the 2nd best player behind Jordan

https://youtu.be/0Yh4qNNJIBQ?t=1m16s

Against the Jazz in the '98 Finals Pippen had commentators during the games and articles about him playing at a Finals MVP level. He scored only 10 points in Game 3 but was still the story after the game because of his defense alone that was spearheading the lopsided blowout.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone

[sd3035]

Obviously it can't be the worst performance ever if people are calling you the finals MV after the first four games. He didn't do much in the last two though

[Roundball_Rock]

Both series hobbled by injury but played through it anyway. The mileage started taking its toll on Pippen in the '96 season and from then on he was often playing injured much like Wade in the later Miami Heat runs. Pippen was playing some of his best basketball ever in '96 but his body broke down in February and his numbers dipped severely in March and April. He wasn't healthy at all for the entire '96 playoff run with an assortment of injuries. In '97 he had a pretty good run until late in the ECF against Miami where he injured his foot early in Game 5 and had to play on one leg in the Finals (still played damn good) which lead to surgery before the '98 season. The '98 playoffs is where he was at his best defensively. Even in games where he scored low his defensive impact was so huge (mainly against the Hornets, Pacers and Jazz) that it couldn't be ignored.

This game is where the back injury started and plagued him until the end of the '98 playoffs but he played through it anyway and again had back surgery at the end of the season.

https://youtu.be/0Yh4qNNJIBQ?t=3m15s

In the same game Bob Costas sums up his game perfectly and Isiah calls him the 2nd best player behind Jordan

https://youtu.be/0Yh4qNNJIBQ?t=1m16s

Against the Jazz in the '98 Finals Pippen had commentators during the games and articles about him playing at a Finals MVP level. He scored only 10 points in Game 3 but was still the story after the game because of his defense alone that was spearheading the lopsided blowout.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone

Great post. :applause: The 10/4/4 Game 3 is something many MJ stans on ISH point to as a poor performance by Pippen--even though, as you mentioned, anyone who watched the game knows Pippen dominated it. The fact is Pippen was the principal reason behind 3 of Chicago's 4 wins in the 98' Finals. It is amusing how many MJ stans here never watched MJ play.

Pippen had Finals of 21/9/8, 21/8/8, 21/9/7 and 20/8/5--first option numbers--yet 3ball is attempting to argue Pippen was a poor second option despite posting first option numbers. :oldlol: Beyond numbers, look at his defense and leadership. Isiah in that clip you posted, where he called Pippen the second best player in the league for the past few years, noted what the Bulls missed the most when Pippen was hurt early in 98' was his leadership.

[DonDadda59]

Pip was a bit of a choke artist, especially early on in his career with his 'migraine' issues. And of course you had the incident against the Knicks in '94. But to be fair, he was nowhere near 100% in '98 after the back surgery.

[Mr Feeny]

Pip was a bit of a choke artist, especially early on in his career with his 'migraine' issues. And of course you had the incident against the Knicks in '94. But to be fair, he was nowhere near 100% in '98 after the back surgery.This is true and that is why it cannot be called choke. It can, however, be called a sub-par performance by a 2nd option and an abysmal one offensively.

[97 bulls]

This is true and that is why it cannot be called choke. It can, however, be called a sub-par performance by a 2nd option and an abysmal one offensively.
But hold on. Was hus 98 Finals a sub par performance as a whole or were his last two games sub par?

Remeber, we're only talking about six games here. So one bad games can really do damage to the overall numbers. And really skew the overall quality and impact of a players contributions on the court.

[97 bulls]

Pip was a bit of a choke artist, especially early on in his career with his 'migraine' issues. And of course you had the incident against the Knicks in '94. But to be fair, he was nowhere near 100% in '98 after the back surgery.
Hiw was 94 a choke? He sat out because he wanted to take the shot.

[Springsteen]

Do you think if MJ brought 3ball to his room and whipped out his c*ck, 3ball would oblige?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Hiw was 94 a choke? He sat out because he wanted to take the shot.
I don't know if choke is the right term either, but 'meltdown' is definitely apropos. In all honesty that's even worse than choking. :oldlol:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Do you think if MJ brought 3ball to his room and whipped out his c*ck, 3ball would oblige?

Of course 3ball would oblige. Does he look like Madonna to you?

[Wade's Rings]

I think he had a negative plus -minus though for the series. And Miami lost their lead when he came in with 2 minutes to go in game 6. Just an observation.

Not Sure about Plus/Minus but without him winning Game 4 we lose and he put us in Position to change Game 5.

With 2 minutes left in Game 6, isn't that when Bron had the turnovers? He didn't play great Game 6 but 2013 can't be the worse 2nd Option Performance.

[GimmeThat]

Just proof that coaching matters. If you'd even like to add up all the upsets that happens in the playoffs. In a professional league mind you.

[Wade's Rings]

He almost lost them game 6 and was very average overall in the playoffs: 16 ppg on 46 % with average defense.

There wouldn't be a Game 6 without him winning Game 4.

This isn't about the Playoffs it's about the Finals.

[DonDadda59]

Hiw was 94 a choke? He sat out because he wanted to take the shot.

Alright, so switch 'choke artist' with 'mental midget'.

[TheMan]

Alright, so switch 'choke artist' with 'mental midget'.
Pip is my second fave all time Bull, what he did in the 94 series vs NY really left me with a bad taste in my mouth for the longest time. If the Bulls HC was more like Pop than PJax, Pippen would've more than likely shipped out of town.

[navy]

Hmm....Do we mean overall or single performances.

Wade and Pippen had some atrocious performances which was well below the standards they have played at, but let's not pretend that they didnt have great ones as well.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pip is my second fave all time Bull, what he did in the 94 series vs NY really left me with a bad taste in my mouth for the longest time.
That was hideously selfish, and cowardly. Feminine too. He almost was traded a few times. In particular for Shawn Kemp. Pippen was always sulking. Even when winning championship rings.

[bdreason]

Greatest wing defender in the history of the sport.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jamaal Wilkes 1975: 12/9/1 on 32%
Vernon Maxwell 1994: 13/3/3 on 37%
Tony Parker 2003: 14/3/4 on 39%

It's honestly like OP didn't watch Jordan play, or doesn't know anything about NBA history

[Indian guy]

Offense generally was a struggle for Chicago in the playoffs from 96-98, and look no further than Pippen for that. He was just consistently disappointing in each run. Not only did his ppg dip significantly, but his efficiency collapsed too, barely shooting over 40%. Pippen's strengths on offense were based around his athleticism, but he was 30+ during the 2nd 3peat and the NBA game had pretty much turned into a half-court slugfest by the mid-90's. A perimeter player needed a consistent jumper to score well in the half-court. Pippen never had that. He also developed an annoying obsession with shooting the 3ball despite sucking at it.

[Roundball_Rock]

Offense generally was a struggle for Chicago in the playoffs from 96-98, and look no further than Pippen for that.

Yeah--look at how much the Bulls players' shooting percentages improved with Pippen in the second half of 98' versus without Pippen in the first half of that year.

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG


Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG


Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG. (In contrast, when MJ retired players' shooting percentages improved. :lol )

The Bulls went from 72-10 and 69-13 to a 56 win pace team without Pippen in 98' when he was out--and this was with Kukoc replacing him at SF, not some D-Leaguer.

This thread is revealing. MJ stans inveigh against 3ball but most of them share his views.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Offense generally was a struggle for Chicago in the playoffs from 96-98, and look no further than Pippen for that. He was just consistently disappointing in each run. Not only did his ppg dip significantly, but his efficiency collapsed too, barely shooting over 40%. Pippen's strengths on offense were based around his athleticism, but he was 30+ during the 2nd 3peat and the NBA game had pretty much turned into a half-court slugfest by the mid-90's. A perimeter player needed a consistent jumper to score well in the half-court. Pippen never had that. He also developed an annoying obsession with shooting the 3ball despite sucking at it.
Great post.

:applause:

[97 bulls]

Yeah--look at how much the Bulls players' shooting percentages improved with Pippen in the second half of 98' versus without Pippen in the first half of that year.

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG


Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG


Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG. (In contrast, when MJ retired players' shooting percentages improved. :lol )

The Bulls went from 72-10 and 69-13 to a 56 win pace team without Pippen in 98' when he was out--and this was with Kukoc replacing him at SF, not some D-Leaguer.

This thread is revealing. MJ stans inveigh against 3ball but most of them share his views.
Great post. People just wont acknowledge that Pippen was injured in 96 and 98. Thats why his offensive numbers suffered.

Some if these posters have a clear agenda and don't mind showing it.

[Smoke117]

That was hideously selfish, and cowardly. Feminine too. He almost was traded a few times. In particular for Shawn Kemp. Pippen was always sulking. Even when winning championship rings.

He WANTED to be traded so he could go to a team that would rework his contract. And he was sulking? You'd be upset too if you were by far the 2nd best player on the team, but were only around the 7th highest paid.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He WANTED to be traded so he could go to a team that would rework his contract.
Bulls were willing to trade him. He ws upset at contracts that he structured, and signed. Why? Because Scottie is dumb. Especially financially. Long history to prove it.


And he was sulking? You'd be upset too if you were by far the 2nd best player on the team, but were only around the 7th highest paid.
Whose fault was that though ... and yes, Scottie routinely sulked or complained.

[Roundball_Rock]

Great post. People just wont acknowledge that Pippen was injured in 96 and 98. Thats why his offensive numbers suffered.

Some if these posters have a clear agenda and don't mind showing it.

Exactly--they are the same as 3ball except less obnoxious.

:oldlol: at bringing up trades. Jordan adamantly opposed any trade--and that Pippen not be traded for a younger star was an implicit condition of his return. So Pippen was the worst "second option" ever yet Jordan consistently fought to keep him? If Pip was interchangeable logic says trade a 30-32 year old star for a 25 year old one. It is no coincidence Pip was basically the only guy MJ was gracious toward in his HOF speed. :pimp:

[Smoke117]

Exactly--they are the same as 3ball except less obnoxious.

:oldlol: at bringing up trades. Jordan adamantly opposed any trade--and that Pippen not be traded for a younger star was an implicit condition of his return. So Pippen was the worst "second option" ever yet Jordan consistently fought to keep him? If Pip was interchangeable logic says trade a 30-32 year old star for a 25 year old one. It is no coincidence Pip was basically the only guy MJ was gracious toward in his HOF speed. :pimp:

Exactly. That's what makes all these Jordan stans so hilarious...it was Jordan who pretty much demanded Pippen stay on the team. (like when they were trying to trade him for Eddie Jones)

[Roundball_Rock]

Exactly. That's what makes all these Jordan stans so hilarious...it was Jordan who pretty much demanded Pippen stay on the team. (like when they trying to trade him for Eddie Jones)

Yup. It is funny how they are obsessed with making it seem as if MJ won by himself. Why is that necessary? We all know that team was a contender without him--it still does not change MJ's status at the GOAT (along with KAJ imo)! Pippen does not diminish MJ's legacy at all.

[3ball]

Pippen does not diminish MJ's legacy at all.


Of course not - Pippen adds to it, because him and the rest of the supporting cast represent FAR less help than Magic or Bird had, or ANY other focal point who won multiple rings (except maybe hakeem, but he didn't have to play the Bulls, so idk about his rings).

the stats prove it - other than wilt, jordan's stats were better than any player in history - this proves he had to do more for his rings than anyone else.

no one wins with a 1-man team, but Jordan's GOAT stats prove he won more by himself than anyone in history.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Of course not - Pippen adds to it, because him and the rest of the supporting cast represent FAR less help than Magic or Bird had, or ANY other focal point who won multiple rings (except maybe hakeem, but he didn't have to play the Bulls, so idk about his rings).

the stats prove it - other than wilt, jordan's stats were better than any player in history - this proves he had to do more for his rings than anyone else.

no one wins with a 1-man team, but Jordan's GOAT stats prove he won more by himself than anyone in history.

and this is why you have no credibility

[Ne 1]

Of course not - Pippen adds to it, because him and the rest of the supporting cast represent FAR less help than Magic or Bird had, or ANY other focal point who won multiple rings (except maybe hakeem, but he didn't have to play the Bulls, so idk about his rings).

No single perimeter player could replace Pippen and have the Bulls still win 6 rings imo. No one else can bring his intangibles, all around game and chemistry with Jordan.




Other than wilt, jordan's stats were better than any player in history


Kareem was statistically more dominant and also proved to be more valuable to his teams during his prime.

[SouBeachTalents]

[QUOTE=3ball]Of course not - Pippen adds to it, because him and the rest of the supporting cast represent FAR less help than Magic or Bird had, or ANY other focal point who won multiple rings (except maybe hakeem, but he didn't have to play the Bulls, so idk about his rings).

No single perimeter player could replace Pippen and have the Bulls still win 6 rings imo. No one else can bring his intangibles, all around game and chemistry with Jordan.






Kareem was statistically more dominant and also proved to me more valuable to his teams during his prime.

How about prime Payton?

[97 bulls]

Kareem was statistically more dominant and also proved to me more valuable to his teams during his prime.

Hes too ignorant to even respond to this post. He doesn't care about impact and what actually happened on the court.

[Roundball_Rock]

How about prime Payton?

Payton was not an all-star until 94'. He was a 13.5/3/5 player as late as 93'. So with Payton there would be no first three-peat--and it is questionable whether the Bulls would defeat Utah with Payton instead of Pippen in either 97' or 98'. Another benefit of the Pippen scenario to MJ is they were similar in age. Pippen's prime overlapped with much of MJ's. As Pippen began to hit his prime, MJ was hitting his peak. The timing was an important factor in their success.

[SouBeachTalents]

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]

Payton was not an all-star until 94'. He was a 13.5/3/5 player as late as 93'. So with Payton there would be no first three-peat--and it is questionable whether the Bulls would defeat Utah with Payton instead of Pippen in either 97' or 98'.

Well, I meant if Payton's prime occurred when Pippen's did

[3ball]

and this is why you have no credibility
there's nothing but facts in that post - Jordan's GOAT stats while winning championships prove he did more to win those championships than anyone else.

[Kvnzhangyay]

there's nothing but facts in that post - Jordan's GOAT stats while winning championships prove he did more to win those championships than anyone else.

For a fact, that is not the definition of prove

[Smoke117]

How about prime Payton?

Payton is not a good fit. He wouldn't fit in the triangle very well. (just like he didn't already on the Lakers) Payton is a guy who has to have the ball in his hands to be effective. As a scorer he was at his best in the post and he frankly wouldn't get very many opportunities down there playing with Mike. Defensively...while he's a great one on one defender, he doesn't have close to the impact that Pippen did with his help/team defense and that frankly was a lot more important than Scottie's one on one defense to the Bulls.

They would be better off with a Prime Kidd than a Prime Payton. He would be able to adapt much better and was a much better help/team defender than Payton.

[TheMan]

Yup. It is funny how they are obsessed with making it seem as if MJ won by himself. Why is that necessary? We all know that team was a contender without him--it still does not change MJ's status at the GOAT (along with KAJ imo)! Pippen does not diminish MJ's legacy at all.
I know you ain't talking about me. I know Pip was MJ's pardnah in crime, no coincidence that only MJ and Pippen were the only constant players in all 6 title runs, I've always stated this. I don't like it when some of the more extreme MJ fans try to argue MJ won by himself, diminishing Pip and his teammates. I also don't like the other extreme, the posters who try to make it seem like the Bulls were as loaded as the 80s Celtics, Lakers and Pistons to diminish Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

I didn't mean you. I meant the MJ-only crowd. You are a Bulls fan. The Bulls fans are pro-Pippen, aside from some exceptions like Samurai. It is the MJ-only crowd like 3ball who are anti-Pippen. Guys who have not rooted for a team since the 90's. :lol

[sdot_thadon]

Of course not - Pippen adds to it, because him and the rest of the supporting cast represent FAR less help than Magic or Bird had, or ANY other focal point who won multiple rings (except maybe hakeem, but he didn't have to play the Bulls, so idk about his rings).

the stats prove it - other than wilt, jordan's stats were better than any player in history - this proves he had to do more for his rings than anyone else.

no one wins with a 1-man team, but Jordan's GOAT stats prove he won more by himself than anyone in history.
:biggums: you should get help man.

the bulls were THE team in the 90s. We all know Mj was the focal point and the load bearer in the 1st 3peat. Even with that pippen was a great 2nd option, for the longest regarded as the unanimous goat sidekick. 2nd 3peat Pip was a beast though and I can remember there being a sentiment of the bulls having the best 2 guys in the league during the 2nd 3peat. Whether or not it was 100% accurate the mere thought it was entertained says enough.

[SouBeachTalents]

I am definitely not anti-Pippen.

Fake Bulls fans like yourself, and just all around weirdos like Smoke117 or 97 bulls make it quite easy to dislike him due to their propensity to overrate the hell out of one season. 1994. Or his offensive abilities in general. And then use one season to justify what exactly?

That it's a feat to win mid 50 games and get bounced in the 2nd round?

:confusedshrug:

Not that I necessarily disagree with that, but how many teams have lost a top 10 player of all time in their prime and managed to win 55 games and a playoff series the next season?

[Smoke117]

I am definitely not anti-Pippen.

Fake Bulls fans like yourself, and just all around weirdos like Smoke117 or 97 bulls make it quite easy to dislike him due to their propensity to overrate the hell out of one season. 1994. Or his offensive abilities in general. And then use one season to justify what exactly?

That it's a feat to win mid 50 games and get bounced in the 2nd round?

:confusedshrug:

...right because I have to post in EVERY Pippen thread like you do in EVERY Jordan thread right? I barely post about Pippen anymore unless there is something that especially irks me off or I want to amuse myself. You post in EVERY SINGLE ****ING JORDAN THREAD, "weirdo".

[navy]

I am definitely not anti-Pippen.

Fake Bulls fans like yourself, and just all around weirdos like Smoke117 or 97 bulls make it quite easy to dislike him due to their propensity to overrate the hell out of one season. 1994. Or his offensive abilities in general. And then use one season to justify what exactly?

That it's a feat to win mid 50 games and get bounced in the 2nd round?

:confusedshrug:
Yes, most teams go to complete shit when they lose a star player. The Bulls lost the GOAT. You gotta gotta give that team and Pippen/Phil JAckson a lot of credit for replacing Jordan and not going to the lottery.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Not that I necessarily disagree with that, but how many teams have lost a top 10 player of all time in their prime and managed to win 55 games and a playoff series the next season?
Well it's difficult to compare. The 1994 Bulls were more talented sans Jordan than they were '91 - '93, no?

In addition, going beyond that to the psyche of the team ... that ball club was so slept on, and had so much to prove without Jordan, that they out performed expectations before coming back down to earth.

Who cares how many games they won in the regular season?

Things like this play a factor. It's like saying the Miami Heat of 2011 - 2013 are trash because how they performed this season without James. With the same names even, though in terms of actual ability it's a horse of a different color.

Or how the 2011 Cavs tanked even though they lost numerous pieces beyond LeBron's cowardly exit that off season, had a new coach, and had a litany of injuries.

Context matters.

I can tell who lived in Chicago and watched that team the way people talk about them so reverently. That team had holes. Namely missing MJ and his ability to score in the half court, in grind it out Playoff series against great physical defenses like NYC.

Pippen was putrid offensively in the '94 ECSF. That team also had 2x other players in contract seasons who played well enough to be all stars.

So it was Pippen, that season an MVP candidate, and 2x other all star caliber players in Armstrong, and Grant. So why only the 2nd round?

In 1995, the very next season the Bulls struggled to stay .500 without Grant. So therefore Grant is severely underrated now? Or does that make Pippen overrated?

Ridiculous.

The second MJ comes back and is no longer rusty ... the Bulls win 72 games, and dominate the NBA like a team never has before. Winning another 3 peat.

[mehyaM24]

not even close, as pippen was one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever during that run. :oldlol: at people who go off pure box scores.

in 96 & 97, pippen led the bulls in xRAPM (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1996.html) (FULL rapm isn't available for those seasons) and was a top 10 player in that regard. that's right - a top 10 player for his defense alone. imagine a HEALTHY pippen who could carry an offense circa 94 & 95? :eek:


I didn't mean you. I meant the MJ-only crowd. You are a Bulls fan. The Bulls fans are pro-Pippen, aside from some exceptions like Samurai. It is the MJ-only crowd like 3ball who are anti-Pippen. Guys who have not rooted for a team since the 90's. :lol
glad i'm not the only one who doesn't take that swish clown seriously. LMAO @ "coach" being a bulls fan. :oldlol:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8047584#post8047584

[Smoke117]

Well it's difficult to compare. The 1994 Bulls were more talented sans Jordan than they were '91 - '93, no?

In addition, going beyond that to the psyche of the team ... that ball club was so slept on, and had so much to prove without Jordan, that they out performed expectations before coming back down to earth.

Who cares how many games they won in the regular season?

Things like this play a factor. It's like saying the Miami Heat of 2011 - 2013 are trash because how they performed this season without James. With the same names even, though in terms of actual ability it's a horse of a different color.

Or how the 2011 Cavs tanked even though they lost numerous pieces beyond LeBron's cowardly exit that off season, had a new coach, and had a litany of injuries.

Context matters.

I can tell who lived in Chicago and watched that team the way people talk about them so reverently. That team had holes. Namely missing MJ and his ability to score in the half court, in grind it out Playoff series against great physical defenses like NYC.

Pippen was putrid offensively in the '94 ECSF. That team also had 2x other players in contract seasons who played well enough to be all stars.

So it was Pippen, that season an MVP candidate, and 2x other all star caliber players in Armstrong, and Grant. So why only the 2nd round?

In 1995, the very next season the Bulls struggled to stay .500 without Grant. So therefore Grant is severely underrated now? Or does that make Pippen overrated?

Ridiculous.

The second MJ comes back and is no longer rusty ... the Bulls win 72 games, and dominate the NBA like a team never has before. Winning another 3 peat.

lol...Armstrong never belonged on the all star team. He was a good role player and that's it. He was not a legit all star. Get the **** out of here with that bullshit.

[Roundball_Rock]

Not that I necessarily disagree with that, but how many teams have lost a top 10 player of all time in their prime and managed to win 55 games and a playoff series the next season?

0. The "best" any of those other teams have done is win 42-44 games and 1-2 first round games. :lol


Yes, most teams go to complete shit when they lose a star player. The Bulls lost the GOAT. You gotta gotta give that team and Pippen/Phil JAckson a lot of credit for replacing Jordan and not going to the lottery.

Exactly--and not only did they lose a star, not only did they lose the GOAT but they lost the GOAT at his peak. Everyone expected them to go to the lottery--even Jackson predicted 42 wins was a best-case scenario when he set goals for the team before the season, citing the historical 15 or so win drop-off teams experienced in the past when losing a player of that caliber. Interestingly, that trend has held since then when you look at Orlando and L.A. without Shaq and Miami (-17) without LeBron. (I don't count the 11' Cavs because the entire roster was gutted)

Keep in mind they lost MJ and Grant in back-to-back years, failed to adequately replace either and still were a 5th-6th place team in their conference. How many teams could lose their best player and 3rd best player and remain a 5th-6th place squad?

[mehyaM24]

Aren't you the one begging fellow ISHers such as plowking to "expose" me ... or whatever that means. Like a desperate comic book villain or something. Get a life kiddo. Pathetic.

:oldlol:
absolutely not. you were exposed on your own, "coach".

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=369588

^^^^ so are you a kobe fan or wade fan today? jordan that flavor of the month, or is it chris paul? :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

absolutely not. you were exposed on your own, "coach".

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=369588

^^^^ so are you a kobe fan or wade fan today? jordan that flavor of the month, or is it chris paul? :oldlol:
I like all those players honestly. You get that thread book marked heh? Bet your creepy ass jerks off to it. Same ilk of creep like that OP who never posts, then PMs me asking my name and info.

:biggums:

Claims he knows people who also coach for IL speed, yet couldn't even name the program director. Instead makes up nicknames for guys to prove his legitimacy?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

You've already admitted you hate me, even though you don't even know me beyond my posts on ISH. Taking this stuff way too seriously, son.

[mehyaM24]

I like all those players honestly. You get that thread book marked heh? Bet your creepy ass jerks off to it. Same ilk of creep like that OP who never posts, then PMs me asking my name and info.

:biggums:

Claims he knows people who also coach for IL speed, yet couldn't even name the program director. Instead makes up nicknames for guys to prove his legitimacy?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

You've already admitted you hate me, even though you don't even know me beyond my posts on ISH. Taking this stuff way too seriously, son.

i think your lies & flat-out odd behavior ran him off of the forum. i have no idea if he was telling the truth or not, but you were obv exposed. there are literally dozens of posters itt who called you out on your bs.

gig is up, "coach".

nobody takes you seriously :oldlol:

[mehyaM24]

...right because I have to post in EVERY Pippen thread like you do in EVERY Jordan thread right? I barely post about Pippen anymore unless there is something that especially irks me off or I want to amuse myself. You post in EVERY SINGLE ****ING JORDAN THREAD, "weirdo".

swish, the supposed "bulls fan", is also a kobe stan with an account dedicated to him:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8047584#post8047584

take anything he says about the bulls from that era with a grain of salt. in all seriousness, i would bet he didn't even watch those teams.

[SamuraiSWISH]

nobody takes you seriously :oldlol:
Don't really care. Let's be honest, it was probably your alternate. I didn't even say anything to him.

plowking told me how you were begging him to help you "expose me" dating back to months ago. Get out more. ISH isn't real life.

:biggums:

[mehyaM24]

Don't really care. Let's be honest, it was probably your alternate. I didn't even say anything to him.

plowking told me how you were begging him to help you "expose me" dating back to months ago. Get out more. ISH isn't real life.

:biggums:
says the guy with a kobe stan alt (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8047584#post8047584). that self awareness :oldlol:

with your alts, i would bet you have breakfast, lunch & dinner here.

btw, you also accused me of being "mr feeny", who i think is an idiot. playing detective isn't your strong suit, "coach".

[KingBeasley08]

Pippen still has a bigger d!ck than Jordan.

He won at what matters. Just ask Madonna. In the end, all of Jordan's achievements were due to the greatest case of overcompensation

[Milbuck]

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/you_guys_are_weird_community.gif

[IllegalD]

Pippen was putrid offensively in the '94 ECSF. That team also had 2x other players in contract seasons who played well enough to be all stars.

So it was Pippen, that season an MVP candidate, and 2x other all star caliber players in Armstrong, and Grant. So why only the 2nd round?

In 1995, the very next season the Bulls struggled to stay .500 without Grant. So therefore Grant is severely underrated now? Or does that make Pippen overrated?

Ridiculous.


So by your logic then the 91-93 First ThreePeat Bulls are SUPER stacked because Jordan had THREE All-Star level players in Pippen, Grant, and Armstrong.

So I guess that means Jordan is mad overrated and had a sh*tload of help.
:applause:

[3ball]

So I guess that means Jordan is mad overrated and had a sh*tload of help.
:applause:


I know it's really weird, like, why put up the best stats in history (other than Wilt) if you don't have to?

Like, total overkill.

Oh wait, no, the Bulls benefited from a ton of Jordan game-winners in the Finals and playoffs, while Pippen had zero big plays or game-winners in his entire postseason career - for a decade, he left virtually every single big play to MJ, the GOAT clutch and 4th quarter performer... oh, and Kukoc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NSpgbPcxoU)..
.

[IllegalD]

I know it's really weird, like, why put up the best stats in history (other than Wilt) if you don't have to?

Like, total overkill.

Oh wait, no, the Bulls benefited from a ton of Jordan game-winners in the Finals and playoffs, while Pippen had zero big plays or game-winners in his entire postseason career - for a decade, he left virtually every single big play to MJ, the GOAT clutch and 4th quarter performer

Non-Jordan Bulls Playoff Moments/Big Plays:

1) John Paxon Game Winner vs Suns, 1993 Finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKaCSbKd6Qg

2) Horrace Grant Game-Saving Block on KJ, 1993 Finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxdSVT1UXXA

3) Pippen Game-winning Dunk vs Bullets, 1997 (after JorDON'T almost turns it over):

https://youtu.be/pPs_cyI8Bmc?t=707

4) Pippen Game-Saving Steal vs Jazz, 1997 Finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTWdhAeCKYs

5) Pippen Shuts Down Magic, 1991 Finals (with JorDON'T in foul trouble):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbjBJy6AWQA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE

6) Pippen Dunks on Ewing, 1994 ECSF:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D9Zf6uMdDk

[3ball]

Non-Jordan Bulls Playoff Moments/Big Plays:

1) John Paxon Game Winner vs Suns, 1993 Finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKaCSbKd6Qg

2) Horrace Grant Game-Saving Block on KJ, 1993 Finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxdSVT1UXXA

3) Pippen Game-winning Dunk vs Bullets, 1997 (after JorDON'T almost turns it over):

https://youtu.be/pPs_cyI8Bmc?t=707

4) Pippen Game-Saving Steal vs Jazz, 1997 Finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTWdhAeCKYs

5) Pippen Shuts Down Magic, 1991 Finals (with JorDON'T in foul trouble):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbjBJy6AWQA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE

6) Pippen Dunks on Ewing, 1994 ECSF:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D9Zf6uMdDk
179 playoff games over 10 seasons and this is the best you could do.. What a sad list.. :facepalm

Pippen shut down Magic?.. :oldlol: .. Magic averaged 19 PPG, 8 RPG, 12 APG on 61% TS in the 1991 Finals.

Also, it's been confirmed HERE (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11244317&postcount=64), that Pippen guarded Magic for a total of 4.5 quarters out of the 20 total quarters played.. Pippen guarding Magic was just the shock factor and it gave the media something else to talk about besides MJ's superman, GOAT dominance.

Btw, steals made at the end of the game when the Bulls were ALREADY AHEAD, don't count.. and dunks over big men don't count.. :facepalm

The only play you listed that counts is Pippen's GW-dunk in the 1st round vs Washington - maybe the least impactful playoff game-winner of all time in a series the Bulls were winning no matter what.
.

[IllegalD]

Pippen shut down Magic?.. :oldlol: .. Magic averaged 19 PPG, 8 RPG, 12 APG on 61% TS in the 1991 Finals.

Also, it's been confirmed HERE (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11244317&postcount=64), that Pippen guarded Magic for a total of 4.5 quarters out of the 20 total quarters played.. Pippen guarding Magic was just the shock factor and it gave the media something else to talk about besides MJ's superman, GOAT dominance.

Btw, steals made at the end of the game when the Bulls were ALREADY AHEAD, don't count.. Dunks over big men don't count.

The only play you listed that counts is Pippen's GW-dunk in the 1st round vs Washington - maybe the least impactful playoff game-winner of all time in a series the Bulls were winning no matter what.

Translation: I just got herbed out and exposed as a Jordan d*ckrider so now I'm gonna' backpedal like a b*tch and arbitrarily decide what constitutes a memorable playoff moment. :lol

[3ball]

Translation: I just got herbed out and exposed as a Jordan d*ckrider so now I'm gonna' backpedal like a b*tch and arbitrarily decide what constitutes a memorable playoff moment.
I never asked for memorable plays dumbass - it's CLUTCH plays - Pippen has no clutch playoff moments or plays.

Also, you only listed 6 plays (in 10 yrs of playing with MJ), and 2 of them weren't even by Pippen.. :oldlol:

Out of the 4 Pippen plays, one of them was his dunk over Ewing and another was a steal when the Bulls were already ahead.. Then you listed Pippen's defense on Magic, where he gave up 19 PPG, 8 RPG, 12 APG, on 61% TS, and only guarded Magic for 4.5 out of the 20 quarters in the series anyway (confirmed HERE (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11244317&postcount=64)).

The only play you listed that's valid is Pippen's GW against Washington in the 1st Round - it might have been the least impactful playoff game-winner of all time in a series the Bulls were winning no matter what... So in 10 years playing with MJ, Pippen had 1 clutch play.. :applause:
.

[IllegalD]

I never asked for memorable plays dumbass - it's CLUTCH plays - Pippen has no clutch playoff moments or plays.

Also, you only listed 6 plays (in 10 yrs of playing with MJ), and 2 of them weren't even by Pippen.. :oldlol:

Out of the 4 Pippen plays, one of them was his dunk over Ewing and another was a steal when the Bulls were already ahead.. Then you listed Pippen's defense on Magic, where he gave up 19 PPG, 8 RPG, 12 APG, on 61% TS, and only guarded Magic for 4.5 out of the 20 quarters in the series anyway (confirmed HERE (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11244317&postcount=64)).

The only play you listed that's valid is Pippen's GW against Washington in the 1st Round - it might have been the least impactful playoff game-winner of all time in a series the Bulls were winning no matter what... So in 10 years playing with MJ, Pippen had 1 clutch play.. :applause:
.

So a game-saving steal in the finals and a game-winner aren't CLUTCH plays? :confusedshrug:

You said yourself in your original post that Pippen had NO clutch moments, and that Jordan had them ALL, except for one Kukoc one. I proved you wrong, exposed your blatant Jordan-bias, you backtracked like a b*tch. Game, set, MATCH. Cheers, c*nt-rag. :cheers:

[3ball]

So a game-saving steal in the finals and a game-winner aren't CLUTCH plays? :confusedshrug:

You said yourself in your original post that Pippen had NO clutch moments, and that Jordan had them ALL, except for one Kukoc one. I proved you wrong, exposed your blatant Jordan-bias, you backtracked like a b*tch. Game, set, MATCH. Cheers, c*nt-rag. :cheers:
you got me boss.. you proved to me that Pippen did indeed have two clutch plays in his entire 10-year career alongside MJ

Ofc, my original hyperbole about zero clutch plays was to make a point about the extent to which MJ shouldered his team's clutch load more than any other player ever.. and you made that point for me by pointing out the two lone exceptions to the otherwise rock-solid norm.. good looking out

[IllegalD]

you got me boss.. you proved to me that Pippen did indeed have two clutch plays in his entire 10-year career alongside MJ

Ofc, my original hyperbole about zero clutch plays was to make a point about the extent to which MJ shouldered his team's clutch load more than any other player ever.. and you made that point for me by pointing out the two lone exceptions to the otherwise rock-solid norm.. good looking out

I actually pointed out about 6. You just "conveniently" chose to focus on the only 2 of Pippen's you consider legitimate because you were proven wrong/embarrassed.

If you add the Kukoc one, plus the Steve Kerr game winner that's 8 memorable/clutch moments in the playoffs that someone OTHER THAN Jordan had. Almost one non-Jordan moment per year for that 10 year span you keep beating your chest about. Go watch Space Jam with a box of tissues, Jordan Stan. :lol

[97 bulls]

http://chasing23.com/michael-jordan-game-winning-shots/

This is a list of clutch shots Jordan has made during the Bulls championship run. They total 8. And off top of my head, I cant think of any clutch defensive plays.

For Pip, I can think if 4. The Charlses Smith block, the steal vs the Jazz, there was a bank shot he made vs the Knicks in I believe 93, and the dunk vs Washington.

[97 bulls]

I know it's really weird, like, why put up the best stats in history (other than Wilt) if you don't have to?
Funny thing is I asked you the exact same question as to Jordan taking so many shots in the Olympics and your reply was that theg wanted him to. Why can't the same be said for the Bulls?

[DonDadda59]

And off top of my head, I cant think of any clutch defensive plays.

Shame on a nigguh :biggums:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-20-2015/WrzvG9.gif

For shame.

[3ball]

If you add the Kukoc one, plus the Steve Kerr game winner that's 8 memorable/clutch moments in the playoffs that someone OTHER THAN Jordan had.


pippen guarding magic does not qualify because he only guarded magic for 4.5 quarters of the 20 quarters in that series (confirmed HERE (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11244317&postcount=64)), and magic never got shut down - he got 19/8/12 on 61% TS.

so that doesn't count... you also included pippen's dunk over ewing - that's not clutch, that's just a poster that all players get..

MJ's GW assist to Kerr obviously doesn't count, nor does Kukoc game-winner WHEN MJ WAS PLAYING BASEBALL.

so there's 4 that clearly don't count.

so in Jordan's entire playoff career (13 seasons), there are 4 clutch plays made by other players.





Almost one non-Jordan moment per year for that 10 year span you keep beating your chest about.


think about it - even if we were to count all 8 of your plays - jordan played in 179 playoff games, so that means he made all the clutch plays in 171 of his 179 games.

that's GOAT.... by FAR.

[aj1987]

Well it's difficult to compare. The 1994 Bulls were more talented sans Jordan than they were '91 - '93, no?

In addition, going beyond that to the psyche of the team ... that ball club was so slept on, and had so much to prove without Jordan, that they out performed expectations before coming back down to earth.

Who cares how many games they won in the regular season?

Things like this play a factor. It's like saying the Miami Heat of 2011 - 2013 are trash because how they performed this season without James. With the same names even, though in terms of actual ability it's a horse of a different color.

Or how the 2011 Cavs tanked even though they lost numerous pieces beyond LeBron's cowardly exit that off season, had a new coach, and had a litany of injuries.

Context matters.

I can tell who lived in Chicago and watched that team the way people talk about them so reverently. That team had holes. Namely missing MJ and his ability to score in the half court, in grind it out Playoff series against great physical defenses like NYC.

Pippen was putrid offensively in the '94 ECSF. That team also had 2x other players in contract seasons who played well enough to be all stars.

So it was Pippen, that season an MVP candidate, and 2x other all star caliber players in Armstrong, and Grant. So why only the 2nd round?

In 1995, the very next season the Bulls struggled to stay .500 without Grant. So therefore Grant is severely underrated now? Or does that make Pippen overrated?

Ridiculous.

The second MJ comes back and is no longer rusty ... the Bulls win 72 games, and dominate the NBA like a team never has before. Winning another 3 peat.
I love how you keep saying that. How long do you think MJ would've stayed on the Bulls, if they kept him surrounded with trash, resulting in constant PO defeats? Dude played on some of the MOST stacked teams. Ever.

[supermechasonic]

didnt pipen make a crucial and one shoot against the pacers in game 7 of 1998 confrence finals?

[97 bulls]

pippen guarding magic does not qualify because he only guarded magic for 4.5 quarters of the 20 quarters in that series (confirmed HERE (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11244317&postcount=64)), and magic never got shut down - he got 19/8/12 on 61% TS.

so that doesn't count... you also included pippen's dunk over ewing - that's not clutch, that's just a poster that all players get..

MJ's GW assist to Kerr obviously doesn't count, nor does Kukoc game-winner WHEN MJ WAS PLAYING BASEBALL.

so there's 4 that clearly don't count.

so in Jordan's entire playoff career (13 seasons), there are 4 clutch plays made by other players.



think about it - even if we were to count all 8 of your plays - jordan played in 179 playoff games, so that means he made all the clutch plays in 171 of his 179 games.

that's GOAT.... by FAR.
Actually, while its true Pippen didnt guard Magic the whole series, Magics worst game happened when he was being defended by Pippen.

[97 bulls]

Shame on a nigguh :biggums:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-20-2015/WrzvG9.gif

For shame.
Oh I didn't forget that play. But since it wasn't the last play of the game (according to 3ball) it doesn't count.

[3ball]

Dude played on some of the MOST stacked teams. Ever.


specifically, what multiple ring winners are the Bulls more stacked then (other than Hakeem's Rockets).

after you list the teams that the Bulls are more stacked than, can you explain why MJ put up far better stats than any of the #1 options of the teams you've identified?

if his team is more stacked, then he shouldn't have to put up better numbers than the #1 option on those teams.

[Kvnzhangyay]

specifically, what multiple ring winners are the Bulls more stacked then (other than Hakeem's Rockets).

after you list the teams that the Bulls are more stacked than, can you explain why MJ put up far better stats than any of the #1 options of the teams you've identified?

if his team is more stacked, then he shouldn't have to put up better numbers than the #1 option on those teams.

So how many games did the Bulls win again after MJ retired?

[3ball]

.
Jordan's AND1 Dunk Game-Winner Over Kendall Gill in 1998 1st Round Game 3


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e270d4fcc3be5642492af315839bc223.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/0534070ef0bbc6627d4323d3d71a49e2.gif


MJ with the 1st-Team All-NBA GOAT defense at 35 - that's that WILL



Random Dunk from Near-FT Line Distance


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6c822484c69a1826b1c1a01515bfae5c.gif

[DonDadda59]

http://chasing23.com/michael-jordan-game-winning-shots/


Looking through that list, I didn't see the Flu Game 3 pointer. Think it came with 25 seconds and change. The most clutch shot in arguably the most iconic and clutch game ever played by an NBA player. Guess if you move the cut off to 30 seconds, then MJ would be 10/19 (53%) in the playoffs. :applause:

[97 bulls]

Looking through that list, I didn't see the Flu Game 3 pointer. Think it came with 25 seconds and change. The most clutch shot in arguably the most iconic and clutch game ever played by an NBA player. Guess if you move the cut off to 30 seconds, then MJ would be 10/19 (53%) in the playoffs. :applause:
Im sure more were missed. Jordan is the greatest ever. That doesn't mean Pippen and the rest of his teammates weren't.

[Dresta]

not even close, as pippen was one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever during that run. :oldlol: at people who go off pure box scores.

in 96 & 97, pippen led the bulls in xRAPM (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1996.html) (FULL rapm isn't available for those seasons) and was a top 10 player in that regard. that's right - a top 10 player for his defense alone. imagine a HEALTHY pippen who could carry an offense circa 94 & 95? :eek:


glad i'm not the only one who doesn't take that swish clown seriously. LMAO @ "coach" being a bulls fan. :oldlol:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8047584#post8047584
God you're a pathetic one-trick pony: only ever posting abstract stats you don't even understand, let alone know the value of, or how to give context to it.

According to those stats you so love posting, Pippen went from 3rd best player on the Bulls in 93, to the best in 96. From not even being in the top 20 to better than MJ!

Your logic is faultless, really :rolleyes: .

[3ball]

Jordan is the greatest ever.

That doesn't mean Pippen and the rest of his teammates weren't the great too.


They don't hold a candle to Parish/McHale/DJ or Kareem/Worthy/Scott/Green/Cooper..

But anyway, we know Jordan was 9-18 in the playoff clutch (less than 24 seconds, etc.)... But what was Pippen?

From what I can tell, 1-1.. That one lucky game-winner against the Washington was his only make, and from what i can tell, his only ATTEMPT - that's the one where he tried to dunk and missed, but the ball literally bounced around an went in - pure luck and chance.. his only clutch shot alongside MJ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TL1oCbqBf8

[3ball]

In 1994, apparently KUKOC was the designated clutch finisher - here's Ernie Johnson pointing out that Kukoc hit 3 game-winners during the 1994 regular season (while Pippen hit zero):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=2m05s

So it was KUKOC who was the designated clutch finisher when MJ was gone - the best example of this was when Phil called on Kukoc to take the final shot in Game 3 of ECSF instead of Pippen - Pippen melted down and refused to enter the game, while Kukoc hit his 4th GW that season.

Interestingly, not only was Kukoc the designated clutch guy, but another reason Phil went away from Scottie is because Scottie had just made a really bad turnover on the previous possession, where he basically panicked - footage is below - after that possession, Ewing goes down and scores with 1.8 left.. Then Phil calls the final play for Kukoc, and Pippen completes his panic and meltdown by refusing to enter the game - when push came to shove, Pippen was LOST without MJ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=1m22s
.

[97 bulls]

They don't hold a candle to Parish/McHale/DJ or Kareem/Worthy/Scott/Green/Cooper..
Under what metric are you basing this on?


But anyway, we know Jordan was 9-18 in the playoff clutch (less than 24 seconds, etc.)... But what was Pippen?
I already told you four instances of clutch plays from Pippen.

[kennethgriffin]

in the 96 finals pippen averaged

15.7ppg, 8.2rpg, 5.3apg, 2.3spg, 1.3bpg, 1.8t.o on 41mpg as his teams #1 defender and playing PG

not as bad as it looks with the fg%... made up for it with all around game

pippen was basically their

#1 ball handler
#1 play maker
#1 defender
#1 post up player
#2 rebounder


not bad

[Derivative]

in the 96 finals pippen averaged

15.7ppg, 8.2rpg, 5.3apg, 2.3spg, 1.3bpg, 1.8t.o on 41mpg as his teams #1 defender and playing PG

not as bad as it looks with the fg%... made up for it with all around game

pippen was basically their

#1 ball handler
#1 play maker
#1 defender
#1 post up player
#2 rebounder


not bad

griffmoney your troll game has fallen off, i expected better

[97 bulls]

In 1994, apparently KUKOC was the designated clutch finisher - here's Ernie Johnson pointing out that Kukoc hit 3 game-winners during the 1994 regular season (while Pippen hit zero):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=2m05s

So it was KUKOC who was the designated clutch finisher when MJ was gone - the best example of this was when Phil called on Kukoc to take the final shot in Game 3 of ECSF instead of Pippen - Pippen melted down and refused to enter the game, while Kukoc hit his 4th GW that season.
This is a bold faced lie and you know it. The game winning shots that Jackson drew up were never intended for Kukoc. He happened to be in the right place at the right time or was the second option.


Interestingly, not only was Kukoc the designated clutch guy, but another reason Phil went away from Scottie is because Scottie had just made a really bad turnover on the previous possession, where he basically panicked - footage is below - after that possession, Ewing goes down and scores with 1.8 left.. Then Phil calls the final play for Kukoc, and Pippen completes his panic and meltdown by refusing to enter the game - when push came to shove, Pippen was LOST without MJ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=1m22s
.
Go back and look at the play your alluding to. Pippen had the ball in the closing seconds and wanted an iso. Everyone but Kukoc move away and since Kukoc stayed, when Pippen made his move, Kukoc man was also there waiting for him and thus forced Pippen into a bad shot.

[97 bulls]

Here are two of the Kukoc game winners in question. In one, Armstrong turns down a wide open jumper, attacks the basket and dumps it off to Kukoc whose wide open, then in the other, Kukoc is the second option and only ends up being open because his man (being a big) hestisated to come out and defend him, then Pippen gives him a perfect pass to give him an easy jump shot. And lets not forget who had the ball in their hand to make the decision both times. PIPPEN!!!!!!!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MjS-aKBlBXU


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yOMzdxynChs

[97 bulls]

And lets not forget that Jackson has a tendency to go away from his best player in tense situations and this includes Jordan.

In 92, Jackson sat Jordan in the fourth quarter of game 6 and it was Pip and the bench that got the Bulls back in the game after being down 15 points. Jordan himself said he found himself cheering from the bench during that run.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GnAr4I3-Z48

In 93. Jackson drew up the play for Pippen and used Jordan as a decoy. And it was Pippen who attacked the basket, and made the right pass that eventually led to the Paxson shot.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GnAr4I3-Z48http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8h5tR0rQddo

And lets not forget the 97 NBA Finals game 6. Once again, the Bulls offense was sluggish, they were down to the Jazz, Jackson sits Jordan late in the 3rd and leaves Pippen in and the Bulls go on a run and take the lead.

[mehyaM24]

Here are two of the Kukoc game winners in question. In one, Armstrong turns down a wide open jumper, attacks the basket and dumps it off to Kukoc whose wide open, then in the other, Kukoc is the second option and only ends up being open because his man (being a big) hestisated to come out and defend him, then Pippen gives him a perfect pass to give him an easy jump shot. And lets not forget who had the ball in their hand to make the decision both times. PIPPEN!!!!!!!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MjS-aKBlBXU


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yOMzdxynChs
good post buddy :applause:

[DonDadda59]

And lets not forget that Jackson has a tendency to go away from his best player in tense situations and this includes Jordan.

In 92, Jackson sat Jordan in the fourth quarter of game 6 and it was Pip and the bench that got the Bulls back in the game after being down 15 points. Jordan himself said he found himself cheering from the bench during that run.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GnAr4I3-Z48

In 93. Jackson drew up the play for Pippen and used Jordan as a decoy. And it was Pippen who attacked the basket, and made the right pass that eventually led to the Paxson shot.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GnAr4I3-Z48http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8h5tR0rQddo

And lets not forget the 97 NBA Finals game 6. Once again, the Bulls offense was sluggish, they were down to the Jazz, Jackson sits Jordan late in the 3rd and leaves Pippen in and the Bulls go on a run and take the lead.

Yet MJ didn't run off to pout in the corner and quit on his team in-game during those instances.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-20-2015/cjWB78.gif

Dat leadership. :applause:

[LeBird]

No, he just quit on his team altogether because he "wanted to play baseball".

[Mr Feeny]

No, he just quit on his team altogether because he "wanted to play baseball".

Excellent contribution to this forum again. Well thought-out post:applause:

[Black Mamba's B]

Fixed.

94 NBA FINALS:
Vernon Maxwell: 13.4ppg on 36%FG 3.3RPG, 2.9APG, 0.6SPG, 0.0BPG

2000 NBA FINALS:
Kobe Bryant: 15.6ppg on 36%FG, 4.6RPG, 4.2APG, 1.0SPG, 1.4BPG

2003 NBA FINALS:
Tony Parker: 14.0ppg on 38%FG, 3.2RPG, 4.2APG, 0.3SPG, 0.2BPG

2006 NBA FINALS:
Walker/O'neal: 13.8/13.7 ppg

And its just in the last 20 years. And I missed some I think.

Yea kobe was so bad Jalen Rose injured him intentionally, which skewed his numbers. Could have sworn he lead the lakers to an overtime victory on the road with Shaq fouled out and played decent defense as well. Foh

[IllegalD]

Yea kobe was so bad Jalen Rose injured him intentionally, which skewed his numbers. Could have sworn he lead the lakers to an overtime victory on the road with Shaq fouled out and played decent defense as well. Foh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J60b5Pyudc4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP7NA-4oi1I

Even after being intentionally injured, 21 year old Kobe, with a bum ankle, in his first finals manages to produce one of the greatest finals moments of all time. :bowdown: