Prime MJ was the greatest perimeter defender of all time

[3ball]

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Prime MJ was the greatest perimeter defender of all time.. People just can't wrap their head around him being the best at so many things.. Pippen was never this quick on the perimeter - that's true guard quickness.. In b4 someone posts some inferior, slower Pippen shit... Show me where Pippen got 3+ stls in a season and 1.5+ blocks like MJ did twice... I'll wait..

Also, let's face it - Payton and Moncrief were NEVER as dynamic on the perimeter as MJ - MJ's length, quickness and athleticism was on another level from those guys.. We can SAY they were on prime MJ's level, but truthfully, we're just being nice and trying to find something else to talk about other than MJ - which I understand, but I still have to snap you guys back to reality.

[LoneyROY7]

Chris Paul's perimeter defense > MJ's perimeter defense. Hold this salt.

[dh144498]

Chris Paul's perimeter defense > MJ's perimeter defense. Hold this salt.


this is not even remotely funny.

[LoneyROY7]

this is not even remotely funny.

I see someone's ass is still chapped from the beating CP put on that booty last night. :lol

[MP.Trey]

I actually agree. Dude never took a play off defensively.

[G0ATbe]

:lol :lol :lolWasn't even the best perimeter defender on his own team. Let alone all time.

[dh144498]

I see someone's ass is still chapped from the beating CP put on that booty last night. :lol

nah mayne. CP is legit. But better than Michael Jordan?

:lol
:roll:

[LoneyROY7]

nah mayne. CP is legit. But better than Michael Jordan?

:lol
:roll:

Dood, it's a 3ball thread. Logic is no longer a prerequisite.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Hmmm... A great case can be definitely made.

To me, the greatest on-ball perimeter defender of all-time is Sidney Moncrief, I would take him over Jordan at that but MJ was also terrific at it and more impactful off-ball.
And while Moncrief was very good on offense (and on the boards), he obviously wasn't as good as MJ or even expending the same level of energy.

Sid would average around 1.5 steals per game, got a few blocks here and there but he's not close to MJ's numbers. Moncrief had some great blocks but wasn't close to the best shot-blocking guards, and he played straight lockdown D, didn't gamble much at all, most of his steals were coming off of playing ball-denial and the passing lanes.
Sidney could "anchor" a defense from the backcourt, was just an amazing on-ball perimeter defender, but his steals/blocks numbers couldn't **** with someone like Michael's.

My top3 SG GOAT defenders are Moncrief, Jordan and Michael Cooper.

Thing with Pippen is that he was also major off-ball, while he could shutdown his man any given night. And ofc that he couldn't guard those quick(er) guards quite like someone like Jordan would, but on the other hand he was able to guard a bigger variety of players more/better than Michael ever could.

My top5 perimeter defenders of all-time would probably be Moncrief, Pippen, Jordan, Payton and Rodman(more of a perimeter defender in his best years, although already great in the post). Then you have dudes like Frazier, Cooper, DJ, Bowen, Bobby Jones(more of a PF though)...

[ralph_i_el]

I say MJ is the worst perimeter defender ever. Prove me wrong

[Angel Face]

He is :cheers:

[sdot_thadon]

3ball is a better defender than Mj could ever dream of being.:cheers:

[SwayDizzle]

Prime Kobe locked in is the best perimeter defender i've ever seen.

[Trollsmasher]

Those 5 gifs convinced the shit out of me

[nzahir]

When locked in and focused its lebron. No way could Mj do a good job at guarding 4 positions. He wasnt big enough to guard a guy like melo or pau; but lebron is, Yet Ive also seen him shut down quick guys such as parker and mvp rose

[G0ATbe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqfVQo_uyGk

GOAT defense:bowdown: .

[Beastmode88]

Who posted 3ball's bail? :facepalm

[Angel Face]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqfVQo_uyGk

GOAT defense:bowdown: .

Title says prime, PRIME... idiot.

[Hey Yo]

It's easy to be called a great defender when you hardly get called for PF.

MJ's breakout season was 87-88 where he was called for 3.3 fouls per game. After that season, PF called against MJ went down every year except for 1993 and 96' when he was called for 2.4PF per game each year.

Just shows that Stern made sure the refs kept his cash cow on the floor and not in foul trouble to where he would be benched.

[LoneyROY7]

I just heard a FANTASTIC quote on PTI.

Mike Wilbon: "Don't you know that MJ dropped 63 points on the Celtics on this day 29 years ago?"

Tony K: "Yeah, I know that. Life has moved on."

Kornheiser summing up the response to every single one of 3ball's threads. :oldlol:

[Smoke117]

I just heard a FANTASTIC quote on PTI.

Mike Wilbon: "Don't you know that MJ dropped 63 points on the Celtics on this day 29 years ago?"

Tony K: "Yeah, I know that. Life has moved on."

Kornheiser summing up the response to every single one of 3ball's threads. :oldlol:

http://33.media.tumblr.com/144e852b68d55737d9e431b52c3371a8/tumblr_ndv51htSn41rx47rko3_250.gif

[ImKobe]

hold this L, OP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBu28UwDzps


can't touch this.

tied with MJ and GP for the most defensive 1st teams as well and most defensive teams among any guard in history.

[He Strong]

Hey look everybody, 3ball is posting about MJ! :eek:

[Smoke117]

hold this L, OP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBu28UwDzps


can't touch this.

tied with MJ and GP for the most defensive 1st teams as well and most defensive teams among any guard in history.

Even 3ball isn't this stupid. At least Jordan has a case for greatest perimeter defensive player of all time.

[jstern]

Definitely in the clutch. Westbrook reminded me of MJ last year in the playoffs when they needed him the most. It was so MJ like, and people have to understand that stuff like that makes him the goat. MJ that is.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ffa3ab35fed933e2e41fe4fc60320d97.gif

Damn. 5 seconds left in the game. Can you imagine watching that live?

[DonDadda59]

It's easy to be called a great defender when you hardly get called for PF.

MJ's breakout season was 87-88 where he was called for 3.3 fouls per game. After that season, PF called against MJ went down every year except for 1993 and 96' when he was called for 2.4PF per game each year.

Just shows that Stern made sure the refs kept his cash cow on the floor and not in foul trouble to where he would be benched.

Mr. 1-5: 1.9 career PF/gm (2.3 peak)

GOAT: 2.6 PF/gm (3.6 peak, 3.3 DPOY year)

Stern doe. :durantunimpressed:

[sportjames23]

Definitely in the clutch. Westbrook reminded me of MJ last year in the playoffs when they needed him the most. It was so MJ like, and people have to understand that stuff like that makes him the goat. MJ that is.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ffa3ab35fed933e2e41fe4fc60320d97.gif

Damn. 5 seconds left in the game. Can you imagine watching that live?


LOL, I did. This was the first Bulls game I ever watched. :rockon:

[ArbitraryWater]

Definitely in the clutch. Westbrook reminded me of MJ last year in the playoffs when they needed him the most. It was so MJ like, and people have to understand that stuff like that makes him the goat. MJ that is.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ffa3ab35fed933e2e41fe4fc60320d97.gif

Damn. 5 seconds left in the game. Can you imagine watching that live?

thats in the game? wow I saw another MJ gif of something similar.

Yeah, felt like Russ had multiple of those plays last year.. I remember the one against the Grizz, specifically.


Mr. 1-5: 1.9 career PF/gm (2.3 peak)

GOAT: 2.6 PF/gm (3.6 peak, 3.3 DPOY year)

Stern doe. :durantunimpressed:

damn, you fully transitioned to 1 of 5 now? :oldlol: 2013 don't even count no more.. **** 2 of 5, thats not embarrassing enough.

[Kvnzhangyay]

thats in the game? wow I saw another MJ gif of something similar.

Yeah, felt like Russ had multiple of those plays last year.. I remember the one against the Grizz, specifically.



damn, you fully transitioned to 1 of 5 now? :oldlol: 2013 don't even count no more.. **** 2 of 5, thats not embarrassing enough.

1-5 means he supposedly can guard 1-5 lol

[DonDadda59]

damn, you fully transitioned to 1 of 5 now? :oldlol: 2013 don't even count no more.. **** 2 of 5, thats not embarrassing enough.

1 through 5. - means THROUGH. / means out of.

:facepalm


Damn. 5 seconds left in the game. Can you imagine watching that live?

Etched in my brain forever.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-20-2015/NMh4O-.gif

[3ball]

when they needed him the most... and people have to understand that stuff like that makes him the goat. MJ that is.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ffa3ab35fed933e2e41fe4fc60320d97.gif

Damn. 5 seconds left in the game. Can you imagine watching that live?



After MJ knocked the ball loose from Xavier the first time, MJ anticipated where the loose ball would land, so he was there before the ball even got there, just like he does here against Tom Chambers - GOAT instincts for the ball:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b01e0604ae6da93954489a852c026024.gif


Simply the greatest defensive skills of any non-big man.
.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Definitely in the clutch. Westbrook reminded me of MJ last year in the playoffs when they needed him the most. It was so MJ like, and people have to understand that stuff like that makes him the goat. MJ that is.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ffa3ab35fed933e2e41fe4fc60320d97.gif

Damn. 5 seconds left in the game. Can you imagine watching that live?

Great, clutch steal/dunk... Bulls were already up by 5 though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhNJN2RyRd0

[Dro]

When locked in and focused its lebron. No way could Mj do a good job at guarding 4 positions. He wasnt big enough to guard a guy like melo or pau; but lebron is, Yet Ive also seen him shut down quick guys such as parker and mvp rose
Neither is Lebron. Lebron is not stopping any true PF, yeah maybe these stretch 4's but he's not stopping a true PF like Zack Randolph, Tim Duncan, Aldridge, Griffin, etc....Lebron was awesome though in his prime, Ill give him that. I'm not sure if MJ is the greatest perimeter defender ever, thats a tough group.

[ArbitraryWater]

He's up there with Bron

[jzek]

Pippen was.

[jstern]

1 through 5. - means THROUGH. / means out of.

:facepalm



Etched in my brain forever.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-20-2015/NMh4O-.gif

For some reason this play didn't pop my mind. But perfect clutch example of why MJ is the GOAT. It's just his mind, goes into this extreme clutch focus.


After MJ knocked the ball loose from Xavier the first time, MJ anticipated where the loose ball would land, so he was there before the ball even got there, just like he does here against Tom Chambers - GOAT instincts for the ball:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b01e0604ae6da93954489a852c026024.gif


Simply the greatest defensive skills of any non-big man.
.

There's this other play where he anticipated a pass, almost as if he was telepathic and knew exactly where his opponent was going to pass it, I just can't even remember it. But it was very, very impressive. Should be a gif.


LOL, I did. This was the first Bulls game I ever watched. :rockon:

Great 1st game.

[SHAQisGOAT]

After MJ knocked the ball loose from Xavier the first time, MJ anticipated where the loose ball would land, so he was there before the ball even got there, just like he does here against Tom Chambers - GOAT instincts for the ball:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b01e0604ae6da93954489a852c026024.gif


Simply the greatest defensive skills of any non-big man.
.

Jordan had 4 steals and 2 blocks on that one; Bulls won the game, while MJ scored 39 points (on 11-29 shooting though), to go along with 9 rebounds, 5 assists and 0 TO's... Dale Ellis scored 34 points on 58% from the field though...
Point being that Jordan always had major defensive impact (what we're discussing here) but it wasn't like he was always shutting down his man left and right; plus Michael was obviously much needed for offense.

For example, adding to my first post here, for the 1985 EC 1st round, Moncrief "contained" Jordan better than the other way around. Not overlooking that MJ was a rookie and had worse teammates/coach. Still...
-> Jordan went from 28.2/6.5/5.9 on 51.5% from the field with 3.5 TO's in the RS to 29.3/5.8/8.5 on 43.6% FG, with 3.8 TO's, in 4 more minutes in the Playoffs
-> Moncrief went from 21.7/5.4/5.3 on 48.3/27.3 with 2.5 TO's in the regular-season to 26.5/4.5/4.8 on 54.9/40.0, with only 1.8 TO's, in 4.5 more minutes in the PS
...
Bulls lost 3-1, and also adding to my previous post Michael had a considerably bigger amount of steals/blocks than Sidney.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=312018

Anyways, MJ was just a great off-ball defender, while also great on-ball... Making him one of the very best guard/perimeter defenders ever.
One could make a great case about him being the GOAT perimeter defender... Although I won't say that.

[TheMan]

I say MJ is the worst perimeter defender ever. Prove me wrong
87 DPOY :confusedshrug:

Yes MJ was a GOAT defender to go along with his GOAT offensive skill set but OP, serious question, can you lay off the MJ jockriding shtick a couple of months, until after the Finals, for example? This coming from an MJ fan, enjoy the '15 Bulls run to the Finals, get in the championship cruise, dawg.

[Dro]

?
It's easy to be called a great defender when you hardly get called for PF.

MJ's breakout season was 87-88 where he was called for 3.3 fouls per game. After that season, PF called against MJ went down every year except for 1993 and 96' when he was called for 2.4PF per game each year.

Just shows that Stern made sure the refs kept his cash cow on the floor and not in foul trouble to where he would be benched.
Now tell me how many fouls per game Lebron averages...I haven't even looked but you strategically left that out........Actually just looked it up, Lebron averages 1.9 fpg for his career...Guess he's an overrated defender too right?:rolleyes:

[3ball]

There's this other play where he anticipated a pass, almost as if he was telepathic and knew exactly where his opponent was going to pass it, I just can't even remember it. But it was very, very impressive. Should be a gif.


Not sure exactly what one you are talking about - it might be one of the plays in these two three-minute clips that show defensive highlights in succession.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCbp-e7e100&t=33m08s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=15m46s


btw, mj was probably the best blocker of center's shots... he blocked shaq, hakeem, robinson, ewing SOOOO many times.. that's why he's one of the best shot-blocking wing players ever - the only player to ever record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season.. he averaged 1.5 and 1.6 blocks in 87' and 88'.

[Jacks3]

He was so good the Bulls replaced him with Pete Myers and got better defensively.

Then he returned in 1995 and the Bulls defensive rating went from 105.0 without him to 105.3 in the games he played, and a terrible 111.3 DRTG in the postseason.

Truly amazing impact. :bowdown:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

He was so good the Bulls replaced him with Pete Myers and got better defensively.

Then he returned in 1995 and the Bulls defensive rating went from 105.0 without him to 105.3 in the games he played, and a terrible 111.3 DRTG in the postseason.

Truly amazing impact. :bowdown:

:roll:

[bizil]

U could certainly argue MJ as the GOAT perimeter defender. But for me, the most UNIQUE perimeter defenders are the ones like Pippen, Rodman, Bobby Jones, Kirilenko, and Lebron. Those are the guys that could defend damn near any position on the court. So even though MJ was obviously a lockdown defender and arguably the best, I might lean to Pippen on this one. The versatility aspects of defending swing it Pip's way.

[G0ATbe]

He was so good the Bulls replaced him with Pete Myers and got better defensively.

Then he returned in 1995 and the Bulls defensive rating went from 105.0 without him to 105.3 in the games he played, and a terrible 111.3 DRTG in the postseason.

Truly amazing impact. :bowdown:
GOAT gonna GOAT...:yaohappy:

[oarabbus]

Boris Diaw is better and it's not close tbh

[andgar923]

What separates MJ from other great defenders is, MJ also had to carry a huge offensive load that other top defenders didn't come close to.

And while i'm sure teams tried to tire out other wing defenders as they played defense, in an attempt to stop MJ they tried very hard to punish him as a defender as well. They ran his man throuh multiple hard screens, they grabbed him, elbowed him andwere more physical on MJ when he played defense.

But if we want to compare MJ to other star players and not simply defensive specialists, MJ was the most consistent.

Unlike most stars that save their energy for offense, he saved energy on offense FOR defense.

One of the most important defensive aspects is consistency, and that's where MJ kills the other stars. Any and every player is capable of playing good defense, but how many possessions can they do it for?

[andgar923]

MJ is a very strong contender to having the GOAT perimeter defender based on all metrics.

GOAT gonna GOAT

[Jacks3]

1992 Bulls with Jordan: 4th in DRTG, -3.7 relative to league average
1993 Bulls with Jordan: 7th in DRTG, -1.9 relative to league average
1994 Bulls after replacing Jordan with the legendary Pete Myers: 6th in DRTG, -3.6 relative to league average

1995 Bulls pre-Jordan: 105.0 DRTG, -3.3 relative to league average
1995 Bulls after Jordan returned: 105.3 DRTG, -3.0 relative to league average


Guy leaves and his team gets better defensively.

He comes back and they get worse.

Truly the type of impact you'd expect from the GOAT perimeter defender.

Boy he was a real difference maker on the defensive side of the ball.

:bowdown:

[mehyaM24]

1992 Bulls with Jordan: 4th in DRTG, -3.7 relative to league average
1993 Bulls with Jordan: 7th in DRTG, -1.9 relative to league average
1994 Bulls after replacing Jordan with the legendary Pete Myers: 6th in DRTG, -3.6 relative to league average

1995 Bulls pre-Jordan: 105.0 DRTG, -3.3 relative to league average
1995 Bulls after Jordan returned: 105.3 DRTG, -3.0 relative to league average


Guy leaves and his team gets better defensively.

He comes back and they get worse.

Truly the type of impact you'd expect from the GOAT perimeter defender.

Boy he was a real difference maker on the defensive side of the ball.

:bowdown:
i've always said jordan is one of the greatest scorers, but that his defense was terribly overrated. like, pippen was the guy who led the bulls in net impact on that end from 1991-98.

btw, where do you rate pippen's defense all-time?

[Round Mound]

That would be Pippen. Jordan is clearly one of the best perimeter defenders at the 2 spot but Pippen could guard 1-4 and had more defensive versatility. Pippen usually was the one guarding the other teams best offensive player. Jordan was physically and skill wise at a total advantage over the rest of the players at the 2 spot. Not so for Pippen.

[3ball]

1994 Bulls after replacing Jordan with the legendary Pete Myers: 6th in DRTG, -3.6 relative to league average
1995 Bulls pre-Jordan: 105.0 DRTG, -3.3 relative to league average

1995 Bulls after Jordan returned: 105.3 DRTG, -3.0 relative to league average


The game isn't that simple.. You're forgetting how a team's offensive capability and output affects their defense.

It's amazing that the Bulls' offense went from 16th in the league WITHOUT Jordan, to #1 WITH Jordan, while essentially maintaining their same defensive rating and capability, as your own stats demonstrate.

Specifically, the Bulls' offense went from 106 ORtg in 1994 (16th in the league, and 15,874th all time) to 115.2 in 1996 (#1 in league, #1 all time), DESPITE the offense being bogged down by Rodman's 3 PPG.

Btw, the Bulls defense in 1993 regular season was understandably slightly down, because they rested a ton in the regular season so they could 3-peat, just like the Heat tried to do in 2014.
.

[jstern]

Not sure exactly what one you are talking about - it might be one of the plays in these two three-minute clips that show defensive highlights in succession.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCbp-e7e100&t=33m08s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=15m46s


btw, mj was probably the best blocker of center's shots... he blocked shaq, hakeem, robinson, ewing SOOOO many times.. that's why he's one of the best shot-blocking wing players ever - the only player to ever record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season.. he averaged 1.5 and 1.6 blocks in 87' and 88'.
It wasn't in there. I think it was later on in his career. If I remember correctly, he was fighting over a screen, fake like he was going one way, and while he was behind one of the players he went the other way with his arms out, somehow knowing that his opponent was going to pass the ball. I really can't explain it.

[Dresta]

U could certainly argue MJ as the GOAT perimeter defender. But for me, the most UNIQUE perimeter defenders are the ones like Pippen, Rodman, Bobby Jones, Kirilenko, and Lebron. Those are the guys that could defend damn near any position on the court. So even though MJ was obviously a lockdown defender and arguably the best, I might lean to Pippen on this one. The versatility aspects of defending swing it Pip's way.
And what does that have to do with being a great perimeter defender?

Versatile defender, sure, but you can't separate perimeter and post defense and then say 'this guys is a more impressive perimeter defender because he's also a great post defender' - that is irrelevant to the discussion.

[swagga]

https://i.imgflip.com/kgiw3.jpg

http://gamedayr.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/tony-allen-karaoke-.jpg

[pauk]

3ball, im curious... do you think anybody was better than Jordan at anything?

[Dro]

3ball, im curious... do you think anybody was better than Jordan at anything?
I mean, its not like this is far fetched or something. He has just as good a case for goat perimeter defender as anybody.

[sportjames23]

1992 Bulls with Jordan: 4th in DRTG, -3.7 relative to league average
1993 Bulls with Jordan: 7th in DRTG, -1.9 relative to league average
1994 Bulls after replacing Jordan with the legendary Pete Myers: 6th in DRTG, -3.6 relative to league average

1995 Bulls pre-Jordan: 105.0 DRTG, -3.3 relative to league average
1995 Bulls after Jordan returned: 105.3 DRTG, -3.0 relative to league average


Guy leaves and his team gets better defensively.

He comes back and they get worse.

Truly the type of impact you'd expect from the GOAT perimeter defender.

Boy he was a real difference maker on the defensive side of the ball.

:bowdown:


http://www.gifbin.com/bin/012012/1329414634_dog_slap.gif

[andgar923]

3ball, im curious... do you think anybody was better than Jordan at anything?
Tony Gwynn is better at hitting a curve ball I suppose.


Uhhhh....... That's all I got.:confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

1992 Bulls with Jordan: 4th in DRTG, -3.7 relative to league average
1993 Bulls with Jordan: 7th in DRTG, -1.9 relative to league average
1994 Bulls after replacing Jordan with the legendary Pete Myers: 6th in DRTG, -3.6 relative to league average

1995 Bulls pre-Jordan: 105.0 DRTG, -3.3 relative to league average
1995 Bulls after Jordan returned: 105.3 DRTG, -3.0 relative to league average


Guy leaves and his team gets better defensively.

He comes back and they get worse.

Truly the type of impact you'd expect from the GOAT perimeter defender.

Boy he was a real difference maker on the defensive side of the ball.

:bowdown:
The Bulls best defensive rating out of all the chips came when Pollen missed half the season.

[KobesFinger]

3ball, im curious... do you think anybody was better than Jordan at anything?

Isaac Newton may be a slightly better scientist but that's debatable because he's from a weak era of scientists. Newton discovered gravity but Jordan defies it. 23>9.81

[ShawkFactory]

Tony Gwynn is better at hitting a curve ball I suppose.


Uhhhh....... That's all I got.:confusedshrug:
That's only because Jordan chose to focus on other things. The same kinda thing as saying he'd be a Steph Curry-like 3pt shooter or a Magic-like passer if he wanted to.

[swagga]

That's only because Jordan chose to focus on other things. The same kinda thing as saying he'd be a Steph Curry-like 3pt shooter or a Magic-like passer if he wanted to.

http://media.giphy.com/media/z6z7UXgOWVJ3fNn2Cc/giphy.gif

[ShawkFactory]

http://media.giphy.com/media/z6z7UXgOWVJ3fNn2Cc/giphy.gif
Sarcasm

[kennethgriffin]

Jordan was a great defender. But he wasnt even the best defensive player on his own team for all 6 titles

And for 3 of them he was the 3rd best

[choppermagic]

MJ was a great defender but best of all time? Um, no. And you can find gifs like that for any good perimeter defender.

As others have said players that specialized in defence like Cooper or Rodman were just amazing, without always getting the accolades that MJ got. If i was a player, i'd much rather have Jordan trying to guard me than Rodman. Even for the simple fact that Rodman will focus 100% on just shutting you down, even if he never takes a single shot in the game. Jordan will gamble to make steals on you so he can get easy dunks...

[guy]

MJ was a great defender but best of all time? Um, no. And you can find gifs like that for any good perimeter defender.

As others have said players that specialized in defence like Cooper or Rodman were just amazing, without always getting the accolades that MJ got. If i was a player, i'd much rather have Jordan trying to guard me than Rodman. Even for the simple fact that Rodman will focus 100% on just shutting you down, even if he never takes a single shot in the game. Jordan will gamble to make steals on you so he can get easy dunks...

Um, no? Jordan might not be the greatest perimeter defender of all-time, but that's not inarguable where that type of response makes sense.

Cooper and Rodman got the same defensive accolades that Jordan got.

[Prometheus]

In the '90s, I was a young kid who idolized Michael Jordan - and the only basketball I really watched was the Bulls in the playoffs. So I don't know if he was the best perimeter defender back then.

I never watched anything before 1991, so I don't know if there were better defenders back then.

I only really started watching basketball closely around 2001... and I believe prime Jordan was a better perimeter than anyone that has played since then.

So yeah, he's the greatest perimeter defender I've ever seen. I can't comment on what I never saw.

[bizil]

And what does that have to do with being a great perimeter defender?

Versatile defender, sure, but you can't separate perimeter and post defense and then say 'this guys is a more impressive perimeter defender because he's also a great post defender' - that is irrelevant to the discussion.

You're a clown! Perimeter defender means of all the guys who are perimeter players (PG, SG, SF), who is the best defender. For me, I went with Pippen because he has the VERSATILITY to separate him from the pack. He could guard PG, SG, and SF like MJ could. BUT Pip could defend the PF's as well because he was bigger. So for me that's a tiebreaker.

The most valuable defenders historically in basketball are versatile perimeter defenders and great paint protectors. A huge part of MJ's defensive skillset was his versatility to defend PG, SG, and SF.

Pippen just took that defensive skillset to the next level by being able to defend many big guys. That fact Pippen could guard anybody from Isiah Thomas to Karl Malone great DAMN SURE MAKES A DIFFERENCE!!

[OldSchoolBBall]

One thing about Jordan's defense that always amazed me was his ability to actually fully get in front of and cut off his man, often getting to the other side of the offensive player's body. This is different from what most defenders (even great defenders) do, which is to sorta get half in front of their man and angle him off with their body, preferably into help. Jordan actually fully cut guys' lanes off with his foot speed and anticipation, and I've never seen anyone else do it. He didn't do it all the time by any means either, but he did it enough. Examples here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSgyO_GTu60 (gets his full body in front of Kittles and gets onto the other side of him before he finishes his initial moves - tremendous anticipation and footspeed)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mwSpGOH8X4#t=0m56s (same as above - notice where MJ's body is as he strips the ball - he's on the OTHER side of the offensive player, effectively beating him to the spot)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7NwM2HxwU#t=1m57s (this is the actual game where the GIF in the OP was taken from)

[Paul George 24]

Um, no? Jordan might not be the greatest perimeter defender of all-time, but that's not inarguable where that type of response makes sense.

Cooper and Rodman got the same defensive accolades that Jordan got.
DPOY :banana:

[ThickassGlasses]

I mean, its not like this is far fetched or something. He has just as good a case for goat perimeter defender as anybody.

Yes it is.

He has no case of even being the best on his own team, let alone all of the NBA at that time... or ever.


GOAT player, not even close to GOAT perimeter defender.

[ClipperRevival]

You can definitely make an argument. MJ had off the charts quickness. I think that's a part of his game that gets overlooked. His unreal quickness allowed him to blow by guys on offense and on D, always get to a spot quicker than the offensive player. His off the ball D was also unreal because of this.

MJ could never jump as high as some high leapers we have seen but no one in history, imo, had M's quickness and initial first step. That is what really set him apart.

[jstern]

Here's what Barkley thinks about the topic. At least for the Pippen, Jordan era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=u69SCU79_O0#t=46

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yes it is.

He has no case of even being the best on his own team, let alone all of the NBA at that time... or ever.


GOAT player, not even close to GOAT perimeter defender.

Yeah...this is bullshit. lol @ "not even close to GOAT perimeter defender." At worst, he's no lower than the second or third best in terms of overall defensive impact. Some may have been comparable or slightly better than him in terms of man defense (Payton, Cooper), but they weren't even in his universe in terms of team/help defense and defensive disruption.

No case of being the best perimeter defender on his own team? Jordan was better defensively than Pippen through his first retirement- certainly through 1992 at a minimum.

[97 bulls]

I think Jordan was a better man defender than Pippen, but Pip was a better overall defender and more impactful.

[bond10]

Just cause you can guard 1-4 =/= greatest perimeter defender.

Jordan was the better defender, but Pippen is praised more cause MJ conserved himself during the second 3peat.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=224613

Johnny Bach:

Who was the better defender? Pippen was one of the best and most gifted defenders of all time. But MJ was the better defender. Michael could shut down anyone in the world for a 3 minute span. The best he’s ever seen. (I was pretty shocked by that, but man what does that tell you about MJ, unbelievable.) Jordan was the most ferocious competitor Bach has seen in all his years of basketball. Johnny said physically Jordan and Pippen were about the same as defenders. But when you add in MJ’s ruthlessness and trash talk, that put him ahead of Scottie. When Johnny was coaching with the Hornets in 1995 they had a good team. Glen Rice, Mourning, Johnson. Series was tied at 2 and Hornets had a chance to win game 5 in Chicago. On the biggest possession of the game, Mugsy had the ball with the Hornets down 1. Jordan backed off of him and told him: “shoot it you ****ing midget.” Mugsy shot it, didn’t come close. A year later Mugsy actually told Johnny Bach that he believes that single play ruined his career. His shot never recovered.




http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=213322

New York Daily News - November 3th 1996

Watching Jordan

"To me, the better part of his game is his defense. He becomes very intense and disrupts in the same manner that K.C. Jones did for the Celtics," Chamberlain said. "There are guys who play Jordan who are afraid to put the ball down and afraid to pass. They're always looking and saying, 'Where the hell is Michael?' He'll steal the ball or cause you to do something you don't want to do. But Michael understands that we have always loved numbers and scoring and the point system. The people who score the touchdowns or score the baskets are the guys who get all the applause."

[jlip]

The greatest perimeter defender of all time is more than likely a non superstar specialist such as a Bruce Bowen or Tony Allen type player who didn't receive the hype that superstars got.

[bizil]

I think Jordan was a better man defender than Pippen, but Pip was a better overall defender and more impactful.

I agree! Major elements of defense include man defense, team defense, and defensive versatility. Some people in this post are underestimating defensive versatility for some reason. Pip is close to MJ's level in terms of man defense and team defense. But Pip's defensive versatility is arguably the best of all time. That versatility is ENOUGH to give Pip the edge on MJ in terms of overall defense.

For example as great a defender as Chris Paul is, he can only defend PG's and some SG's. In comparison to Lebron who can defend PG, SG, SF, PF, and some centers. So even if CP3 is a better man defender, Bron is the more VALUABLE defender because of his versatility. That versatility gives his teams more flexiblity.

As we have seen, bigger perimeter guys like Magic and Bird gave MJ the most trouble in my opinion. A freak athlete like Pippen had the size and athletic ability to guard them more effectively. So once again, defensive versatility can be used as a tiebreaker if the other elements are close.