Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

[nathanjizzle]

is everyone going to act like the bias isnt obvious already? these players deserved their awards, but is crucified by basketball simps because of their size and position.

nash didnt deserve it
rose didnt deserve it
curry didnt deserve it

[ShawkFactory]

I actually think Rose deserved it. People look at what he's done since and use it to confirm that him getting the award was a joke. It wasn't.

I think Dirk Should have gotten Nash's second MVP.

[Fudge]

nash didnt deserve it
rose didnt deserve it
curry didnt deserve it
Because they didn't, Nathan.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I've defended Nash too many times to get into it again in depth.

TL;DR: GOAT level offensive impact, GOAT shooter, played in 2006 without Stoudemire and still led them to 54 wins.

I'm not huge on Rose's MVP, I'd have preferred Dwight/LeBron, but the Bulls posted 62 (?) wins and from a value standpoint it's completely understandable why he won.

Curry will deserve his if he wins.

[Dresta]

Curry deserves it; Rose didn't.

[VengefulAngel]

The problem is that were comparing them to other players who are flat out better than these PGs.

[hawksdogsbraves]

I think it's a case of hindsight being 20/20; now that you can look back and see that neither Rose nor Nash even made the finals, it's easy to say they 'didn't deserve it'.

If Curry and the Warriors go on to win a championship, you'll never hear another peep about him not deserving the MVP.

Beyond that, Rose gets hit extra hard because he's not been close to an MVP caliber player since he won, (due to injuries).

Nash gets hit extra hard because he probably didn't deserve either award in reality.

[He Strong]

is everyone going to act like the bias isnt obvious already? these players deserved their awards, but is crucified by basketball simps because of their size and position.

nash didnt deserve it
rose didnt deserve it
curry didnt deserve it

I think Curry deserves it. Rose borderline deserved it. I don't think Nash deserved it.

[Eric Cartman]

Nash gets hit extra hard because he probably didn't deserve either award in reality.

Who deserved it over Nash?

[T_L_P]

05 Nash and current Curry are both deserved.

06 belongs to Dirk. 11 for Rose? :oldlol:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Who deserved it over Nash?

It's usually a Shaq/Dirk argument depending on the year.

[Hey Yo]

is everyone going to act like the bias isnt obvious already? these players deserved their awards, but is crucified by basketball simps because of their size and position.

nash didnt deserve it
rose didnt deserve it
curry didnt deserve it
edit....misread post

[Eric Cartman]

It's usually a Shaq/Dirk argument depending on the year.

Kobe has an argument in 06, Dirk has one in 05.

Shaq has no argument over Nash in either year.

[Big Cheese]

people believed that cp3 should of won it in 08 :confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

05 Nash and current Curry are both deserved.

06 belongs to Dirk. 11 for Rose? :oldlol:

this exactly


Kobe has an argument in 06, Dirk has one in 05.

Shaq has no argument over Nash in either year.

oh so Kobe has an argument in 2006 but Dirk doesn't? Dirk's case in 2006 is much better than in 2005, you just don't like to see Kobe losing out.

[inclinerator]

cp3 shuld have at least one

[navy]

I think so. People seem to be ignoring the profound impact point guards do for their team.

That said, Curry, Nash, and Rose werent the best players in the nba in their respective years and you would be silly to argue that they were. However outside of Nash in 06 noone won an award that was head scratching. And no Kobe with his 45 wasnt the best candidate despite being the best player.

Revisionist history goes on though. When these guys dont win it all or come close really people will say I told you so despite the regular season votes not really being disputed when they happened.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Kobe has an argument in 06, Dirk has one in 05.

Shaq has no argument over Nash in either year.

I disagree with those that question Nash's value but those are the arguments I've seen, fair or otherwise. :confusedshrug:

[GimmeThat]

cp3 shuld have at least one

It says something about players who can only win it once, players who've won it multiple time, and nba championship caliber player winning it once.

Is the first statement and the third statement re-done done? GM polls and coaches poll will vary from agent polls and player polls.


And that is why there are winners.

[red1]

curry>rose

[LoneyROY7]

It's ironic that the most deserving PG (CP in '08) didn't actually win the award.

[Smoke117]

It's ironic that the most deserving PG (CP in '08) didn't actually win the award.

Indeed.

[LoneyROY7]

Indeed.

And what's crazy is his numbers were even better the next year, but he only got 5th in the voting b/c of insane years from Bron, Wade, etc.

[Eric Cartman]

I disagree with those that question Nash's value but those are the arguments I've seen, fair or otherwise. :confusedshrug:

Sounds good :cheers:

[hawksdogsbraves]

It says something about players who can only win it once, players who've won it multiple time, and nba championship caliber player winning it once.

Is the first statement and the third statement re-done done? GM polls and coaches poll will vary from agent polls and player polls.


And that is why there are winners.

:biggums:

[Ne 1]

oh so Kobe has an argument in 2006 but Dirk doesn't? Dirk's case in 2006 is much better than in 2005, you just don't like to see Kobe losing out.

Well the only MVP with the traditional amount of wins would be Dirk that year. Personally, I give it to Kobe, but if someone wants to give it to Dirk for his 27/9/3 season with 60 wins, I'm fine with that.

[outbreak]

I actually think Rose deserved it. People look at what he's done since and use it to confirm that him getting the award was a joke. It wasn't.

I think Dirk Should have gotten Nash's second MVP.

As much as I hate him I think Howard deserved it much more than Rose, people said Rose didn't deserve it WHEN HE WON IT not after.

[Mrofir]

1996-97 -- Karl Malone

92-93 -- Charles Barkley


In these years, a guy named Michael Jordan was playing basketball, and he won championships in both years. Yet very few people had a problem with those MVPs and I don't see a big wave of outrage today either.


Shaq's 13th best individual season when he was CLEARLY the 2nd best player on his team doesn't qualify in 2006. Maybe Dirk. Nash's first was clear cut, one of the most dramatic single season turnarounds in nba history, indisputably Nash was the difference, and Nash proved it wasn't a fluke by carrying the Suns to big Ws and title contention the next bunch of seasons, even with meager rosters. The 2010 run was a run ONLY STEVE NASH could have piloted. Prime Michael Jordan could not have gone farther with that roster than Nash in 2010. Nash deserves to be considered one of the goat PGs, and his MVPs are just fine.

Everyone stop it.

The Rose year was a change up year. Rose's MVP is weaker than either of Nash's in my book, primarily because the team could win without him. But I still don't have a problem with it.

[Pointguard]

I think it's a case of hindsight being 20/20; now that you can look back and see that neither Rose nor Nash even made the finals, it's easy to say they 'didn't deserve it'.

If Curry and the Warriors go on to win a championship, you'll never hear another peep about him not deserving the MVP.

Beyond that, Rose gets hit extra hard because he's not been close to an MVP caliber player since he won, (due to injuries).

Nash gets hit extra hard because he probably didn't deserve either award in reality.
Dirk in '07???

[Pointguard]

You can tell who has never played ball here.

What Rose did was much harder than what Nash and Curry did. They had great offensive weapons, great finishers, great shooters, very good scorers, great athletes, seasoned players, got a lot of easy baskets, great offensive coach, ran a ton of cuts, moved a lot off of the ball, and a great system vs Rose that didn't have much of that at all. Rose had to deal with major injuries and over 20 different starting line-ups. Second best offensive player didn't know the very few plays they ran at the end of the season. They had to flip a lot of games in the 4th quarter on Rose's back in a half court slow game. Its a point guard's nightmare. What Rose did was crazy for a point guard because all ten of those qualities mentioned above make the job much easier and are critical for PG's to look good and perform well.

Yet they had the best record in the league with veteran teams, super talented teams, continuity with coaches and teammates teams, SA, much older teams, etc.

[Pointguard]

The Rose year was a change up year. Rose's MVP is weaker than either of Nash's in my book, primarily because the team could win without him. But I still don't have a problem with it.

Nope not that year. Not with the injuries, not without them knowing how to break a trap. Having few offensive sets. No consistent scorer. He missed one game that year.

[Mrofir]

Nope not that year. Not with the injuries, not without them knowing how to break a trap. Having few offensive sets. No consistent scorer. He missed one game that year.


You are correct here.


"What Rose did was much harder than what Nash and Curry did." Curry maybe, Nash absolutely not.

Nash making it look easy is not the same as it being easy. The team won less than 30 games the year before and Nash was obviously the difference and remained the difference for multiple seasons after.

[Pointguard]

You are correct here.


"What Rose did was much harder than what Nash and Curry did." Curry maybe, Nash absolutely not.

Nash making it look easy is not the same as it being easy. The team won less than 30 games the year before and Nash was obviously the difference and remained the difference for multiple seasons after.
Nash was absolutely great. And Curry has few weaknesses.

But ask any guard what makes their job easiest, practical and winnable from that position.

1.Great shooters,
2. Great finishers,
3.Very good scorers,
4. Great athletes,
5. Consistency
6. Great System
7. Great offensive coach
8. Seasoned Players
9 Offensive versatility
10.Open floor
11.Solid options
12.Easy baskets

There is absolutely "no or maybe" with Curry or Nash having those dimensions assisted to them by their organizations. These dimensions make it better for every offensive player but especially for a PG who uses this for his whole repertoire. Not only were their games much easier, but it was 12 fold much more loaded for success and point guard stats... .

[ralph_i_el]

Nash orchestrated an elite offense
Curry orchestrated an elite offense
Rose orchestrated a shit offense.

One of these things is not like the other!

[Taller than CP3]

Both Nash and Rose deserved it. They actually dominated in an era when players were healthy and in their prime.

Curry doesn't, here's why.

Kobe - old and injured
Durant - injured
Lebron - old
Carmelo - plays on a shitty team

So Curry wins MVP by default. If any of those 4 guys were healthy and on the Warriors, then Curry would just go back to being a solid role player, kind of like when Monte Ellis was still with Golden State.

You know it's a weak era when a Ray Allenesque, Reggie Millerish type of player can win the MVP.

[game3524]

Both Nash and Rose deserved it. They actually dominated in an era when players were healthy and in their prime.

Curry doesn't, here's why.

Kobe - old and injured
Durant - injured
Lebron - old
Carmelo - plays on a shitty team

So Curry wins MVP by default. If any of those 4 guys were healthy and on the Warriors, then Curry would just go back to being a solid role player, kind of like when Monte Ellis was still with Golden State.

You know it's a weak era when a Ray Allenesque, Reggie Millerish type of player can win the MVP.

That may be true for Nash in 2006, but it sure wasn't true for Rose in 2011. Rose won it because most of the top tier guys had down years. Lebron had a down year in 2011, and he also had the whole decision issue and Wade was on his team putting up similar production. Kobe was playing on a bad leg the entire year and coasted. Dwight had a great year, but his team was mediocre, and Dirk just didn't have the numbers.

[Pointguard]

Nash orchestrated an elite offense
Curry orchestrated an elite offense
Rose orchestrated a shit offense.

One of these things is not like the other!
Wow, didn't I just delineate why you can't have an elite offense while being weak in 12 primary areas. I mean you could have understood one thing, but that was asking too much.

But his team had the best record in the league?

[Magic 32]

Kobe's 08 MVP is a bit like Harden this year.


....if Harden also had the best record in the west.

[Pointguard]

That may be true for Nash in 2006, but it sure wasn't true for Rose in 2011. Rose won it because most of the top tier guys had down years. Lebron had a down year in 2011, and he also had the whole decision issue and Wade was on his team putting up similar production. Kobe was playing on a bad leg the entire year and coasted. Dwight had a great year, but his team was mediocre, and Dirk just didn't have the numbers.
Those are just excuses. And you can make them for every year.

Lebron was on a super talented team and didn't have the best record. Dirk was on one of his best teams. Rose had waaaaay more excuses and reasons not to excell that year than Wade, Lebron, Dwight... .

[Mrofir]

There is absolutely "no or maybe" with Curry or Nash having those dimensions assisted to them by their organizations.


You make a lot of good points but I can't agree with this. Some years Nash had a very nice supporting cast, but here is his roster for his 2nd mvp season by order of minutes played:

Marion
Raja Bell
Boris Diaw
Nash
Barbosa
Tim Thomas
Kurt Thomas
James Jones
Eddie House

This team of bench players lost in the WCF. Other than Nash, Marion is the only sure fire starter quality talent on that roster and they had no depth. Curry obviously has much more around him; I truly cannot see another point guard in nba history taking this particular roster that close to a championship. Imagine if Westbrook had taken OKC to the brink of a finals appearance this year. He still had more talent around him than Nash had in 06. And Nash did it again in 2010 with 2.5 starter quality players and again, no depth.

Stoudemire
Nash
J Rich
Grant Hill
Channing Frye
Jared Dudley
Robin Lopez
G Dragic


Sure the Bulls built a more defensive oriented team around Derrick Rose and the Suns tried to surround Nash with some decent shooters. But Nash made the dream in Phoenix, he wasn't assisted nearly enough by the front office. If he was assisted a little more, they would have won a championship. i.e. match Joe Johnson when he was an RFA.

[Pointguard]

You make a lot of good points but I can't agree with this. Some years Nash had a very nice supporting cast, but here is his roster for his 2nd mvp season by order of minutes played:

Marion
Raja Bell
Boris Diaw
Nash
Barbosa
Tim Thomas
Kurt Thomas
James Jones
Eddie House

This team of bench players lost in the WCF. Other than Nash, Marion is the only sure fire starter quality talent on that roster and they had no depth. Curry obviously has much more around him; I truly cannot see another point guard in nba history taking this particular roster that close to a championship. Imagine if Westbrook had taken OKC to the brink of a finals appearance this year. He still had more talent around him than Nash had in 06. And Nash did it again in 2010 with 2.5 starter quality players and again, no depth.

Stoudemire
Nash
J Rich
Grant Hill
Channing Frye
Jared Dudley
Robin Lopez
G Dragic


Sure the Bulls built a more defensive oriented team around Derrick Rose and the Suns tried to surround Nash with some decent shooters. But Nash made the dream in Phoenix, he wasn't assisted nearly enough by the front office. If he was assisted a little more, they would have won a championship. i.e. match Joe Johnson when he was an RFA.
Good points as aalways. I certainly don't have a problem with Nash at all. He was the man. I think he deserved it. But offensively, his team was far superior to Roses.

What Kidd did in his prime was a bit more impressive than Nash tho, because he didn't have a system, an offensive minded coach, a finisher, continuity, nor as good shooters, or as versatile offensive players. Not one other player in the league could have done what Kidd did that year. Not Shaq, Kobe, Tmac, Duncan or any point guard. And Nash was pretty close to him with that second MVP. Agreed.

Point guards usually excel with offensive weapons/options. What Nash, Kidd and Rose did with very little is really hard to make something big out of little.

[ralph_i_el]

Wow, didn't I just delineate why you can't have an elite offense while being weak in 12 primary areas. I mean you could have understood one thing, but that was asking too much.

But his team had the best record in the league?
Best record in the league based on defense....his weakest aspect.

It's not like Curry is surrounded by epic offensive talent. Klay is a great spot up shooter, draygod is ok, Barnes has been down, Lee barely plays, and Bogut hasn't been able to shoot since his elbow exploded.

Rose had Loul Deng and Boozer, who both had the ability to score 20+ ppg for the season, and Noah who was the best passing big in the game.

Rose ballhogged his way to great stats on a team that won because 1. They had the best D and 2. They played their starters more than anyone else.

Obviously curry and Nash had better offensive help than Rose....but they also made those guys better, and had offensive results multiple tiers above that Bulls team.

Rose was only in the MVP discussions because of the Bulls record, and that record was based on Thibs, D, and overworking the team in the regular season. NOT Rose's offense.

[T_L_P]

Both Nash and Rose deserved it. They actually dominated in an era when players were healthy and in their prime.

Curry doesn't, here's why.

Kobe - old and injured
Durant - injured
Lebron - old
Carmelo - plays on a shitty team

So Curry wins MVP by default. If any of those 4 guys were healthy and on the Warriors, then Curry would just go back to being a solid role player, kind of like when Monte Ellis was still with Golden State.

You know it's a weak era when a Ray Allenesque, Reggie Millerish type of player can win the MVP.

Could be the worst post in ISH history.

[Heavincent]

Could be the worst post in ISH history.

It's up there.

[navy]

Nash orchestrated an elite offense
Curry orchestrated an elite offense
Rose orchestrated a shit offense.

One of these things is not like the other!
Alvin Gentry vs Tom Thibs...

[Mrofir]

What Kidd did in his prime was a bit more impressive than Nash tho, because he didn't have a system, an offensive minded coach, a finisher, continuity, nor as good shooters, or as versatile offensive players. Not one other player in the league could have done what Kidd did that year. Not Shaq, Kobe, Tmac, Duncan or any point guard. And Nash was pretty close to him with that second MVP. Agreed.


Kidd's run with the Nets was pretty remarkable, especially the way they swept through the playoffs. Going 2-2 with the Spurs in the finals was super impressive and surprising. Here is the thing that detracts from it for me -- everyone and their mother knew the a team from the west was going to win the finals that year. If the Nets had somehow finished the job Kidd would leap frog the entire tier to stand just behind Magic. That's how influential just a few games can be in a legacy.

The clear cut best three teams in the league were in the west -- Spurs, Mavs, Kings -- in roughly that order. The Lakers could have possibly been the 4th best team in the league that year, with Kobe/Shaq and not much else. The 6th seeded Trail Blazers had the same record is the #1 seeded Pistons in the East, 50-32. That is messed up.

The east was pretty weak that year and even though JKidd was absolutely phenomenal, I'm not sure those Nets would have escaped the 2nd round in the west. It's not Kidd's fault, but I think his play that year won't be remembered the same way as Isiah or Nash in their prime playoff runs. I'm a Suns fan, so I'm a Kidd fan as well.

[Wiltside]

Harden or Curry are deserving. I'm happy either way.

[Pointguard]

Best record in the league based on defense....his weakest aspect.
Rose had a very impressive year defensively. Name an elite pg that had a good game on him all year long. The were averaging less than 40% shooting and well below their scoring average on him. They had the best perimeter defense in the league. He held Wade as good as any player ever held a healthy Wade in the playoffs. No other great defensive PG in current memory is doing that.


It's not like Curry is surrounded by epic offensive talent. Klay is a great spot up shooter, draygod is ok, Barnes has been down, Lee barely plays, and Bogut hasn't been able to shoot since his elbow exploded.I gave you 12 key critical points that Curry has an advantage in. Do you want to continue or you don't?



Rose had Loul Deng and Boozer, who both had the ability to score 20+ ppg for the season, and Noah who was the best passing big in the game.
Noah and Boozer had bad years and missed 67 games between them. Noah's passing game did little for that offense.


Rose ballhogged his way to great stats on a team that won because 1. They had the best D and 2. They played their starters more than anyone else.
Maybe you can list me all the teams in history that featured a ball hog with the best record in the league, and I'll show you an MVP.

1. GS has the best defense in the league and a way more competent offense.
2. The Bulls had 20 different starting line-ups. The whole team started.


Obviously curry and Nash had better offensive help than Rose....but they also made those guys better, and had offensive results multiple tiers above that Bulls team.

Rose was only in the MVP discussions because of the Bulls record, and that record was based on Thibs, D, and overworking the team in the regular season. NOT Rose's offense.
Sorry, but Lebron's team had a top three defense. With two of the best offensive players in the game the year before. Rose lead the league in 4th quarter turnarounds and fourth quarter scoring. You said he was a ball hog. It obviously means he was a great ball hog and that he was better than the rest of the league when it counted most.

[Beastmode88]

Dwight howard > Rose

[game3524]

Those are just excuses. And you can make them for every year.

Lebron was on a super talented team and didn't have the best record. Dirk was on one of his best teams. Rose had waaaaay more excuses and reasons not to excell that year than Wade, Lebron, Dwight... .

There not excuse at all. Rose won the MVP in a weak overall year for MVP candidates. You think he is winning that award if Lebron remains in Cleveland or Kobe's knee was healthy?