Why is Isiah Thomas seemingly so underrated??

[TheMarkMadsen]

Was an all star for ever single year of his career (94 meh..)

Led his team to wins over Magic, Jordan and Bird in significant series

Has the stats.. four straight years of 20/4/10 including a 21/5/14/2 season.. AND the playoff success

almost always raised his game in the playoffs, had possibly the most gutsy finals performance of all time in 88' for game 6. Changed his game and sacrificed stats for W's in 89 & 90 when the Pistons adopted a slower more methodical offense which didn't allow for Isiah to just run free

For me, I have Thomas over Stockton, and is a lot closer to Oscar than people think

Top 4 PG's all time would have to include Magic, Stockton, Oscar and Isiah IMO but I hardly hear this guy talked about anymore..

maybe it has something to do with his beefs with Jordan, Bird and Magic.. but Isiah was a fierce competitor and one of the toughest dudes to ever play the game

where do you rank Isiah Thomas

[Lensanity]

Isaiah Thomas is even more underrated

[24-Inch_Chrome]

He's in my top-5 PGs. Probably slots in at 3 or 4.

[TheMarkMadsen]

who one starred this thread

[LoneyROY7]

who one starred this thread

Good question.

[Akrazotile]

Ive got him ahead of Kobe :confusedshrug:

[navy]

I rank him highly. And he is better than Stockon.

But he was never that dominant as long as Magic was nor did he win an mvp.

[Sarcastic]

I rank him highly. And he is better than Stockon.

But he was never that dominant as long as Magic was nor did he win an mvp.

This is why context is always important. He competed with Magic, Bird, KAJ, Jordan for MVPs, while Curry is gonna get one competing with James Harden.

[Random_Guy]

lol he was dominant as fk, he took over in stretches

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Isiah's ankle game is, to me, the most impressive display from a player not at 100% in league history. I'll take it over Jordan's flu game every time.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is why context is always important. He competed with Magic, Bird, KAJ, Jordan for MVPs, while Curry is gonna get one competing with James Harden.

He didn't compete at all. His highest MVP finish was 5th in 1984. His only other top 10 finishers were 8th and a pair of 9ths. In the years Detroit reached the Finals he was 12th, 17th and 13th in MVP voting. Nor was he all-NBA in any of those three seasons.

The above is a key reason why he is in the top 20-25 group and outside the next group. He simply did not have the same individual success as the next tier of players, particularly during the years of Detroit's best team success. How many players have been the best player on a championship team and finished 17th and 13th in MVP voting? I think that says something. Usually a player like that would almost automatically at least be a top 5 or so MVP candidate on the strength of his team's performance.

Isiah's relative lack of individual success and his poor longevity are what hurt him.

All this is relatively speaking. He was an excellent player. He is one of the top 20 or 25 players in history. Yet we are comparing him to the next tier--people like Charles Barkley and K. Malone--and he deserves to rank below them.

[Real14]

Ive been telling these niguhz tha same shit. Isiah is definitely top 10.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Ive been telling these niguhz tha same shit. Isiah is definitely top 10.

:whatever:

All-time? No.

[Smoke117]

Ive been telling these niguhz tha same shit. Isiah is definitely top 10.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/14kwrhk.gif

Do you ever take a moment and think...maybe I won't say something stupid as **** today? Try it.

[Real14]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/14kwrhk.gif

Do you ever take a moment and think...maybe I won't say something stupid as **** for once? Try it.
Stop hating and give tha man his damn credit:coleman:

[Real14]

:whatever:

All-time? No.
Hakeem is top 10 but Isiah's not??:biggums: bullshit!:coleman:

[3ball]

Led his team to wins over Magic, Jordan and Bird in significant series

Has the stats.. four straight years of 20/4/10 including a 21/5/14/2 season.. AND the playoff success

almost always raised his game in the playoffs, had possibly the most gutsy finals performance of all time in 88' for game 6. Changed his game and sacrificed stats for W's in 89 & 90 when the Pistons adopted a slower more methodical offense which didn't allow for Isiah to just run free

For me, I have Thomas over Stockton, and is a lot closer to Oscar than people think

Top 4 PG's all time would have to include Magic, Stockton, Oscar and Isiah IMO but I hardly hear this guy talked about anymore..


See, that's what I don't get - Isiah DEFEATED a prime Larry, prime Magic, and prime Jordan.

3 of the top 5 players of all time.. Oh, and Kareem too.. 4 of the 5 top players of all time.

But to figure out why Isiah is underrated, you have to consider how the game of basketball actually works - a small point guard has never won an NBA championship while dominating his team's distribution of offensive win share - basically, a small point guard can't win a championship by undertaking too much of the playmaking duties for his team: multiple playmaker teams (isiah's pistons, today's spurs) > 1-playmaker teams (CP3 and Nash's teams).

So while CP3 and Nash are stat-padding their way to 2nd round exits, Isiah was making sure his team-leading production fit into a true team concept, where his teammates retained sufficient playmaking responsibility for the team to maximize it's effectiveness against the better playoff competition.

While CP3 and Nash have both historically employed losing styles, Nash wasn't as good as CP3, so his stats declined in the playoffs, while CP3's don't fall much.. In Nash's case, just look at his WS/48 stats (WS/48 measures win shares, or how much a player contributes to his team's wins).. Nash's regular season WS/48 was 0.164, but it declined almost 20% to 0.133 in playoffs - this means a 62-win Phoenix team is more like a 50-win team in the playoffs..

Otoh, Isiah's WS/48 increased considerably in the playoffs - it increased 35% from 0.109 in regular season to 0.143 in the playoffs (higher than Nash's playoff WS/48).

It shows how optimal Isiah's game was at the point guard position that in the playoffs, his team went up to that higher level specifically by coalescing around Isiah's skill, and getting more out of him.
.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Hakeem is top 10 but Isiah's not??:biggums: bullshit!:coleman:

If you want to be taken seriously this is no way to do so.

[Smoke117]

Hakeem is top 10 but Isiah's not??:biggums: bullshit!:coleman:

I guess I can answer my own question for you: No.

[bizil]

I don't think Isiah is underrated at all! He's widely considered the GOAT small guard. He's also widely considered the 3rd GOAT PG. In terms of mainstream appeal, Isiah was among the top 5-7 stars in the league in the Golden Era. And to top it off he won back to back rings. So he had mainstream appeal, was fun as hell to watch, and won rings.

What hurts Isiah is the Bad Boys Pistons persona and his controversial remarks. It cost him his rightful place on the Dream Team. The team could have carried three point guards with Isiah, Stockton, and Magic. Many of the future US teams had three PG's anyway. Isiah would have become one of the elite guys to have an NBA title, NCAA title, and Olympic Gold Medal.

[Real14]

If you want to be taken seriously this is no way to do so.
Who's your top 10?

[Real14]

I don't think Isiah is underrated at all! He's widely considered the GOAT small guard. He's also widely considered the 3rd GOAT PG. In terms of mainstream appeal, Isiah was among the top 5-7 stars in the league. And to top it off he won back to back rings. So he had mainstream appeal, was fun as hell to watch, and won rings.

What hurts Isiah is the Bad Boys Pistons persona and his controversial remarks. It cost him his rightful place on the Dream Team. The team could have carried three point guards with Isiah, Stockton, and Magic. Many of the future US teams had three PG's anyway. Isiah would have become one of the elite guys to have an NBA title, NCAA title, and Olympic Gold Medal.
That's why he's tha most underrated. People hated on tha best small man for years:facepalm

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Who's your top 10?

All-time? Pretty standard list:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. Hakeem
10. LeBron

The 6 and 7 spots flip fairly frequently.

[Real14]

I guess I can answer my own question for you: No.
Who's your top 10?

[Real14]

All-time? Pretty standard list:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. Hakeem
10. LeBron

The 6 and 7 spots flip fairly frequently.

:coleman: but Isiah don't deserve to be on there?:biggums: ........:coleman:

[ZMonkey11]

Isiah's ankle game is, to me, the most impressive display from a player not at 100% in league history. I'll take it over Jordan's flu game every time.

http://www.cinemablend.com/images/sections/60060/_1382477641.gif

[Eric Cartman]

I was gonna respond thinking it was Isaiah Thomas.

Dude's underrated cause he spanked Jordan's ass too many times. League f*cked him out of a title when Magic tripped him as well.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Hes overrated lucky he played on one of the most stacked and GOAT defenses. Its arguably he wasnt even the best Piston during their best days

PGs that were better

Magic
Oscar
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Payton

Then Zeke or KJ........Peak Penny and Baron were better too.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

The phantom foul on Laimbeer is the only reason Isiah didn't get a three-peat.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Hes overrated lucky he played on one of the most stacked and GOAT defenses. Its arguably he wasnt even the best Piston during their best days

PGs that were better

Magic
Oscar
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Payton

Then Zeke or KJ........Peak Penny and Baron were better too.

:durantunimpressed:

We're talking greatness here, there's a lot more to that than how you judge their respective skill levels. Isiah was easily greater than all of the bold names, that's without getting into an argument about skill level.

[ZMonkey11]

Hes overrated lucky he played on one of the most stacked and GOAT defenses. Its arguably he wasnt even the best Piston during their best days

PGs that were better

Magic
Oscar
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Payton

Then Zeke or KJ........Peak Penny and Baron were better too.


Wow....wow.

[bizil]

That's why he's tha most underrated. People hated on tha best small man for years:facepalm

I do agree that Isiah's reputation has cost him some rightful credit among many. But in the grand scheme I don't think he's underrated. If it wasn't for his beefs with Bird, MJ, and Magic he would have been on the Dream Team. He was a lock for the team by ANY other criteria. His reputation cost him.

It wasn't him being underrated that cost him. He is a POLARIZING kind of legend. U either love him or hate him. Those that hate him BUT DON'T give him credit for his career have an agenda. People have to separate personal bias from what happens on the court. I think Nique is much more UNDERRATED than Isiah ever was! Nique didn't make NBA 50 greatest or the Hall of Fame on the first ballot.

[ThickassGlasses]

Underrated because of comments and remarks he made to the media, that's the only reason.

[bizil]

I think there is a difference between being polarizing and underrated. Some guys can be both. In a sense, Isiah's comments and conduct have cost him some him some props. But if u TAKE AWAY those negative moments, no way in hell is Zeke underrated. Low key superstars not marketed as a face of the L like English, Dantley, Aguirre, McAdoo, Gilmore, etc. are much more underrated than Isiah ever was. Leaving McAdoo off the 50 greatest list is a PRIME EXAMPLE of being underrated!

In terms of a visible high profile superstar who is underrated, Nique is underrated. Nique was highly visible and was VERY INSTRUMENTAL helping grow the game on a worldwide level. He was in all those dunk contests, All Star Games, Reebok commercials, Minute Maid commercials and VHS tapes.

And yet his game was shitted on by elitists in the media as well as some of the older generation of NBA legends. Those are the people responsible for the HOF and 50 greatest list. And they were responsible for Nique getting the shaft.

[ThickassGlasses]

I think there is a difference between being polarizing and underrated. Some guys can be both. In a sense, Isiah's comments and conduct have cost him some him some props. But if u TAKE AWAY those negative moments, no way in hell is Zeke underrated. Low key superstars not marketed as a face of the L like English, Dantley, Aguirre, McAdoo, Gilmore, etc. are much more underrated than Isiah ever was. Leaving McAdoo off the 50 greatest list is a PRIME EXAMPLE of being underrated!

In terms of a visible high profile superstar who is underrated, Nique is underrated. Nique was highly visible and was VERY INSTRUMENTAL helping grow the game on a worldwide level. He was in all those dunk contests, All Star Games, Reebok commercials, Minute Maid commercials and VHS tapes.

And yet his game was shitted on by elitists in the media as well as some of the older generation of NBA legends. Those are the people responsible for the HOF and 50 greatest list. And they were responsible for Nique getting the shaft.

How many guys can say they beat Bird, Magic, and Jordan when it mattered as the best player? Its a small list.

We give current players props for stepping up when it matters, why not players of the past?

[bizil]

How many guys can say they beat Bird, Magic, and Jordan when it mattered as the best player? Its a small list.

We give current players props for stepping up when it matters, why not players of the past?

Isiah gets his props for beating Bird, Magic, and MJ. But his skeletons from the past keep him from getting AS MUCH LOVE as he should get. His omission from the Dream Team is a great example. But that ONLY happened because of personal beefs.

Other guys are underrated for being in smaller markets, playing on bad teams, having a shortened prime, being hated on for their style of play, etc.

Typically, the guys who have the most swag or fan friendly style of play get marketed the most. So casual fans will focus on those guys as well as their home team. But the thing is some casual fans THINK TOO HIGHLY of their basketball acumen. They don't know the game like we do on this site.

And the ****ed up thing is MANY OF THEM make it in the media. And once u make it to the media, u are in a position to frame players a certain way. Then when u couple that with some bitter old school NBA players who have a say, guys can QUICKLY become underrated.

[Real14]

I do agree that Isiah's reputation has cost him some rightful credit among many. But in the grand scheme I don't think he's underrated. If it wasn't for his beefs with Bird, MJ, and Magic he would have been on the Dream Team. He was a lock for the team by ANY other criteria. His reputation cost him.

It wasn't him being underrated that cost him. He is a POLARIZING kind of legend. U either love him or hate him. Those that hate him BUT DON'T give him credit for his career have an agenda. People have to separate personal bias from what happens on the court. I think Nique is much more UNDERRATED than Isiah ever was! Nique didn't make NBA 50 greatest or the Hall of Fame on the first ballot.
How tha hell he's more underrated than Isiah?:biggums: hE DIDNT MAKE NBA greatest 50 but come on, that dude never led his team past tha semis man. Isiah's resume is better than nique's by a long shot, 2/3 titles too.

[Mrofir]

It's not really that hard to roughly rank pgs in my opinion. Probably the easiest position to rank, especially in tiers.

So we can put this to rest:

1. Magic
2. Oscar*

3a - stockton
3b - kidd
3c - Isiah Thomas
3d - nash

4a - payton
4b - KJ
4c - CP3 (subject to change, enters next tier with a few deep runs, or a single championship)
4d - Cousy*
4e - Frazier*
4f - T Parker (maybe controversial to some, which I don't understand)

Group 5

Curry (obviously subject to change)
Mark Price
Lenny W
Tim Hardaway
Billups
D. Johnson
Nate Archibald
Anybody I'm forgetting

*played against less athletic competition but still deserves the placement


The letters are in no particular order. These are tiers. Many arguments can be made to rank one player ahead of another within a tier, but I think it's tough to argue that any player should jump a tier. Some would say Payton belongs in group 3, I can see that but I'd take any of the other group 3 PGs first. To me Payton is (slight oversimplification) the mirror image of Nash, and if I have to choose between one of the best defending point guards of all time, or quite possibly the very best offensive point guard of all time, I take the offense, at this position. Otherwise we're all set. My rankings aren't that unique; Isiah Thomas is appropriately ranked in general. He just hasn't helped his cause much with his post nba player career.

[Real14]

It's not really that hard to roughly rank pgs in my opinion. Probably the easiest position to rank, especially in tiers.

So we can put this to rest:

1. Magic
2. Oscar*

3a - stockton
3b - kidd
3c - Isiah Thomas
3d - nash

.


This is a big ass slap to tha face. The bigger this thread gets tha more Isiah Thomas gets more underrated:facepalm. Kidd, Stockton and nash was not on Thomas' level period:no:

[Mrofir]

This is a big ass slap to tha face. The bigger this thread gets tha more Isiah Thomas gets more underrated:facepalm. Kidd, Stockton and nash was not on Thomas' level period:no:

It's not a slap to the face. I've said on here before that Isiah could "bridge" in at 2.5 -- He might be the most credible choice to be elevated out of group 2, but it's not obvious.

I won't do them all because you gotta do your own research, but at a glance:

Stockton:
-- All time assists leader by 12 light years, 9 assist titles
-- All time steals leader by a mile, 2 steals titles
-- 19 year career, 19 playoff appearances
-- career 52/38.4/83 shooter
-- 10x all star
-- 2x all nba 1st, 6x 2nd team, 3x third team, 5x all defense 2nd team

Isiah Thomas:
--2x champion
--1x finals mvp
-- 12x all star
-- 1 assist title
-- 3x all nba first, 2x all nba 2nd team
-- career 45/29/76 shooter


It's not obvious.

[Bosnian Sajo]

You guys are overrating him in this thread, but he should definitely be starting over Marcus Smart.

[That_Admiral]

Isiah's ankle game is, to me, the most impressive display from a player not at 100% in league history. I'll take it over Jordan's flu game every time.
:bowdown: my exact thinking. he's in the top 5 for PG's.

[greatest-ever]

He's not underrated on this site, you see guys putting him as a top 20 or 25 plaer which is just innacurate. He was a great player for sure but his efficiency was nothing special and his titles do overrate his impact a little, they were a great defense. Anyways i'd have him in the 31-33 range.

[greatest-ever]

This is a big ass slap to tha face. The bigger this thread gets tha more Isiah Thomas gets more underrated:facepalm. Kidd, Stockton and nash was not on Thomas' level period:no:
Kidd, no. But stockton and Nash were better.

[fandarko]

Kidd, no. But stockton and Nash were better.

Pure skills wise, neither were better.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Thomas was like 50 years old in 94 though.

[HOoopCityJones]

Isiah is the Bizzaro CP3, did so much for his organization and Era, yet he's rarely in a GOAT PG convo. Chris hasn't done shit past the second round and they wanna compare him to Magic.

[BIZARRO]

Wow....wow.

Somebody posts this:
Hes overrated lucky he played on one of the most stacked and GOAT defenses. Its arguably he wasnt even the best Piston during their best days

PGs that were better

Magic
Oscar
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Payton

Then Zeke or KJ........Peak Penny and Baron were better too.



And you post wow...wow....

Which I totally get if it is in response to Kidd or peak Baron being better than Isiah.....which is totally ridiculous....


However, it IS arguable that he was the best Piston during their championship years....Joe D has a Finals MVP too....He basically scored the same as Isiah with a much higher shooting %.....AND he was All NBA 1st team D....Which is a huge deal when comparing the two...

I watched both at that time (as a Bulls fan playing them) and Joe D was basically the equal of Isiah the championship years, and he was a killer....

I'll still take Zeke those two years for his clutch sometimes magical level he could get to....But it's close, real close....

Quite honestly, Joe D is the one who should have a thread on ISH about being underrated, and this thread proves it...

[24-Inch_Chrome]

My top-5 PGs:

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4. Nash
5. Stockton/Kidd

[jayfan]

First team all-nba alpha, that's for sure.






.

[greatest-ever]

Pure skills wise, neither were better.
Skills wise they certainly were better, they were both much better shooters and playmakers.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Somebody posts this:
Hes overrated lucky he played on one of the most stacked and GOAT defenses. Its arguably he wasnt even the best Piston during their best days

PGs that were better

Magic
Oscar
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Payton

Then Zeke or KJ........Peak Penny and Baron were better too.



And you post wow...wow....

Which I totally get if it is in response to Kidd or peak Baron being better than Isiah.....which is totally ridiculous....


However, it IS arguable that he was the best Piston during their championship years....Joe D has a Finals MVP too....He basically scored the same as Isiah with a much higher shooting %.....AND he was All NBA 1st team D....Which is a huge deal when comparing the two...

I watched both at that time (as a Bulls fan playing them) and Joe D was basically the equal of Isiah the championship years, and he was a killer....

I'll still take Zeke those two years for his clutch sometimes magical level he could get to....But it's close, real close....

Quite honestly, Joe D is the one who should have a thread on ISH about being underrated, and this thread proves it...


Hell yeah Dumars pulled Jordan's hoe card all throughout the 80s and doesn't get much credit for it.

[ThickassGlasses]

Dumars absolutely is as well, no disagreement there.



But reading through the thread, people are putting Nash, Kidd and Stockton over Isiah frequently which is why the thread has substance. I would willing to listen to someone saying Stockton, I don't think at the end of the day there is much of a case, but I'd be inclined to listen. Everyone else mentioned in this thread (outside of Magic and Oscar) have no business being put ahead of him.


IT might not be overrated in an all time list, but he is when people are ranking their PG's.

[Mrofir]

Dumars absolutely is as well, no disagreement there.



But reading through the thread, people are putting Nash, Kidd and Stockton over Isiah frequently which is why the thread has substance. I would willing to listen to someone saying Stockton, I don't think at the end of the day there is much of a case, but I'd be inclined to listen. Everyone else mentioned in this thread (outside of Magic and Oscar) have no business being put ahead of him.


IT might not be overrated in an all time list, but he is when people are ranking their PG's.


Just to defend for a sec, I was not putting those guys ahead of Isiah. Merely saying it's a wash. If I'm pushed I'll admit that maybe Isiah has an argument to be elevated slightly above the Nash/Kidd/Stockton tier. But that's really because of 2-3 moments that defined his career in a positive way.

If Amare isn't suspended or doesn't have microfracture, maybe Nash has 2 rings and is clear cut above the others. If Jordan plays baseball 2 years later or the Jazz peak during Jordan's baseball years and get by Houston/Phoenix, maybe Stockton has 2 rings and is clear cut above the others. Looking at a combo of who I'd start a team with AND who had the most illustrious career, I still think it's a wash. I'm not sure I'd choose Isiah to start a team out of that group, and as far as careers go, it's his championships that propel him to this tier to begin with, which is fair. In my book an MVP is roughly = championship in terms of place in history. Ask Charles Barkley, who is rightly remembered as an all time great.

[bizil]

Dumars absolutely is as well, no disagreement there.



But reading through the thread, people are putting Nash, Kidd and Stockton over Isiah frequently which is why the thread has substance. I would willing to listen to someone saying Stockton, I don't think at the end of the day there is much of a case, but I'd be inclined to listen. Everyone else mentioned in this thread (outside of Magic and Oscar) have no business being put ahead of him.


IT might not be overrated in an all time list, but he is when people are ranking their PG's.

I agree! If people are putting Nash or Stockton over Isiah peak wise THEN he's underrated. In comparison to Nash, Isiah is a better scorer and defender. In comparison to Stockton, Isiah is a better scorer. Passing wise, Isiah is on their level.

People gotta realize that peak Isiah was like a mix of Stockton and Iverson. He had the passing, floor generalship, and toughness of Stockton. AND he had the takeover scoring ability and grittiness of Iverson. The only PG's FOR SURE I would take over Isiah peak wise or GOAT wise are Magic and Oscar.

[bizil]

I agree with those who say Dumars is underrated. Skill for skill, Joe D HAD NO WEAKNESSES! For a 6'3 190 pound guard, he was virtually very good to great at everything. He wasn't a freakish athlete BUT he was very strong and quick. Joe could also run the PG and allow Isiah to play off the ball.

In the two way sense (offense and defense as a package), Joe D is a top 6-7 SG of all time. Besides guys like MJ, Kobe, West, Moncrief, and Wade who combined offense and defense better?

[Mrofir]

I agree! If people are putting Nash or Stockton over Isiah peak wise THEN he's underrated. In comparison to Nash, Isiah is a better scorer and defender. In comparison to Stockton, Isiah is a better scorer. Passing wise, Isiah is on their level.

People gotta realize that peak Isiah was like a mix of Stockton and Iverson. He had the passing, floor generalship, and toughness of Stockton. AND he had the takeover scoring ability and grittiness of Iverson. The only PG's FOR SURE I would take over Isiah peak wise or GOAT wise are Magic and Oscar.


These are all great players we are talking about here. What you say looks reasonable enough on paper, but it's so easy to forget, and as a huge Nash fan it's quite easy for me to remember... takeover scoring, floor general, grittiness, etc.....

Prime Nash against Dallas, postseason of MVP season #1:

game 4 - 48 points, 5reb, 5 assist on 20-28 shooting
game 5 - 34 points, 13reb, 12 assists on 13-26 shooting
game 6 - 39 points, 12 assist, 9 rebounds, on 14-24 shooting, including game tying 3 pointer with 5 seconds left to force overtime, which the Suns won


I'm not taking anything away from Isiah, merely pointing out that we are talking about all time greats here. They all have moments of transcendence.

People also forget that Nash finished 2nd in MVP voting the year after his 2nd mvp -- he almost won 3 straight MVPs.


Isiah Thomas was a very good passer but he's just not on the same level as Stockton and Nash in that category. His raw assist numbers were lower, but more telling -- his assist to turnover ratio was SURELY much worse than Nash and Stockton. I'm not even looking that one up, I'm so confident it is true. These guys are all great great players, but it's good to be selective in how we compare them. You can't just go around saying Isiah Thomas was an equally effective passer as John Stockton just because Thomas was a very good passer. And you can't really say Isiah Thomas had the scoring ability of Allen Iverson when he was a very good scorer -- Allen Iverson was the best scoring little guy in NBA history. You're not off by a mile, but the hyperbole doesn't do us any favors.

Pure scoring -- Isiah > Nash > Stockton
Shooting -- Nash > Stockton >>> Isiah
Passing -- Stockton = Nash > Isiah
Big game performances -- Isiah > Nash > Stockton
Longevity -- Stockton > Nash > Isiah
Defense -- Stockton > Isiah >> Nash
Success in Prime, individual and team -- Isiah > Nash > Stockton
Leadership - imo, = = =, totally different styles

Award 1 point for 1st place, 2 for 2nd, 3 for 3rd, with lower numbers being better:

Stockton - 13
Isiah - 14
Nash - 13

It's a total tossup.

[bdreason]

I rank him higher than most. For me, he's the 2nd greatest PG of all-time, and a top 15 player all-time. Anyone who ranks Stockton over him, never watched them play head to head.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I'd probably have him as my 3rd all-time GOAT PG, below Magic and Oscar. Still have dudes like Frazier (very underrated as well) or Stockton though.
Think he falls top30 or so on my all-time list too.

[Real14]

Still have dudes like Frazier (very underrated as well)

I agree with this:applause:

[bizil]

These are all great players we are talking about here. What you say looks reasonable enough on paper, but it's so easy to forget, and as a huge Nash fan it's quite easy for me to remember... takeover scoring, floor general, grittiness, etc.....

Prime Nash against Dallas, postseason of MVP season #1:

game 4 - 48 points, 5reb, 5 assist on 20-28 shooting
game 5 - 34 points, 13reb, 12 assists on 13-26 shooting
game 6 - 39 points, 12 assist, 9 rebounds, on 14-24 shooting, including game tying 3 pointer with 5 seconds left to force overtime, which the Suns won


I'm not taking anything away from Isiah, merely pointing out that we are talking about all time greats here. They all have moments of transcendence.

People also forget that Nash finished 2nd in MVP voting the year after his 2nd mvp -- he almost won 3 straight MVPs.


Isiah Thomas was a very good passer but he's just not on the same level as Stockton and Nash in that category. His raw assist numbers were lower, but more telling -- his assist to turnover ratio was SURELY much worse than Nash and Stockton. I'm not even looking that one up, I'm so confident it is true. These guys are all great great players, but it's good to be selective in how we compare them. You can't just go around saying Isiah Thomas was an equally effective passer as John Stockton just because Thomas was a very good passer. And you can't really say Isiah Thomas had the scoring ability of Allen Iverson when he was a very good scorer -- Allen Iverson was the best scoring little guy in NBA history. You're not off by a mile, but the hyperbole doesn't do us any favors.

Pure scoring -- Isiah > Nash > Stockton
Shooting -- Nash > Stockton >>> Isiah
Passing -- Stockton = Nash > Isiah
Big game performances -- Isiah > Nash > Stockton
Longevity -- Stockton > Nash > Isiah
Defense -- Stockton > Isiah >> Nash
Success in Prime, individual and team -- Isiah > Nash > Stockton
Leadership - imo, = = =, totally different styles

Award 1 point for 1st place, 2 for 2nd, 3 for 3rd, with lower numbers being better:

Stockton - 13
Isiah - 14
Nash - 13

It's a total tossup.

GOAT wise, Stockton and Nash have NO CASE over Isiah at all. Peak wise, I prefer Isiah to both as well. It's no tossup either. I think it's CLEAR AS DAY! Isiah was a better defender than Nash ever was. And a better scorer than Stockton ever was. Isiah was simply more of total package at PG. And besides AI and Tiny the most lethal scoring small guard (6'1 and under) of all time!

When it comes to passing, Isiah had the single season assist record at 13.9 until Stock broke it. So it's NOT A STRETCH to say Isiah was just as good of a passer. Isiah was flat out A GREAT PASSER!! And not just a very good one!

U also have to factor WHO Nash and Stockton were passing to. As well as the systems they ran. Stockton had a big man beast in Karl Malone for 15 years to pass to. Which is something Isiah NEVER had! Nash had an innovative offensive system GEARED to score a lot of points. That's why I said the passing was close and they are all on the same level.

And finally, Isiah's scoring ability was ON PAR with AI! I'm not saying better. The difference is that Isiah was a pass first PG who looked to be a QB first. But at the drop of hat, he could dominate a game scoring the rock. And if u WERE to mix AI and Stockton in a blender u would get Isiah Thomas.

[bizil]

I'd probably have him as my 3rd all-time GOAT PG, below Magic and Oscar. Still have dudes like Frazier (very underrated as well) or Stockton though.
Think he falls top30 or so on my all-time list too.


I agree! Two PG's that standout in their own way are Payton and Frazier. At 6'4, they were great defenders, great passers, and alpha dog scorers. Plus they could defend PG, SG, and many SF's. In the all around sense (passing, scoring, defense as a package), I think they are the two best PG's of all time. So because of that, I could see people arguing them over Isiah peak wise. GOAT wise, I think Frazier is in the top five while GP is in the top ten.

[ZMonkey11]

Somebody posts this:
Hes overrated lucky he played on one of the most stacked and GOAT defenses. Its arguably he wasnt even the best Piston during their best days

PGs that were better

Magic
Oscar
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Payton

Then Zeke or KJ........Peak Penny and Baron were better too.



And you post wow...wow....

Which I totally get if it is in response to Kidd or peak Baron being better than Isiah.....which is totally ridiculous....


However, it IS arguable that he was the best Piston during their championship years....Joe D has a Finals MVP too....He basically scored the same as Isiah with a much higher shooting %.....AND he was All NBA 1st team D....Which is a huge deal when comparing the two...

I watched both at that time (as a Bulls fan playing them) and Joe D was basically the equal of Isiah the championship years, and he was a killer....

I'll still take Zeke those two years for his clutch sometimes magical level he could get to....But it's close, real close....

Quite honestly, Joe D is the one who should have a thread on ISH about being underrated, and this thread proves it...

So this shows you didn't watch the finals Joe won the FMVP much. The Pistons ATTACKED Magic Johnson because of his pathetic defense. Whoever MJ was guarding, thats who they went to. Guess who drew Magic Johnson?

JOE DUMARS. So they continually went to Joe D because Magic couldn't handle him.

This would have been anybody Magic was guarding. You look at stats. I watched the game.

[Mrofir]

GOAT wise, Stockton and Nash have NO CASE over Isiah at all. Peak wise, I prefer Isiah to both as well. It's no tossup either. I think it's CLEAR AS DAY! Isiah was a better defender than Nash ever was. And a better scorer than Stockton ever was. Isiah was simply more of total package at PG. And besides AI and Tiny the most lethal scoring small guard (6'1 and under) of all time!

When it comes to passing, Isiah had the single season assist record at 13.9 until Stock broke it. So it's NOT A STRETCH to say Isiah was just as good of a passer. Isiah was flat out A GREAT PASSER!! And not just a very good one!

U also have to factor WHO Nash and Stockton were passing to. As well as the systems they ran. Stockton had a big man beast in Karl Malone for 15 years to pass to. Which is something Isiah NEVER had! Nash had an innovative offensive system GEARED to score a lot of points. That's why I said the passing was close and they are all on the same level.

And finally, Isiah's scoring ability was ON PAR with AI! I'm not saying better. The difference is that Isiah was a pass first PG who looked to be a QB first. But at the drop of hat, he could dominate a game scoring the rock. And if u WERE to mix AI and Stockton in a blender u would get Isiah Thomas.


I don't agree with you, I feel like you're exaggerating ever so slightly and that's enough to make all the difference.. If I want someone to post 30ppg I'm picking AI over Isiah every single time. Both Stockton and Nash were far more efficient shooters than Isiah and that is pretty indisputable. We never saw what would happen if someone like Nash decided to be a volume scorer, except for briefly in that series against Dallas when they dared him to. But I'm pretty confident that both Stockton and Nash could score right around 20-22ppg with Isiah if they had to. If we're talking about supporting casts, I think Isiah had the best. Their 88 team especially was solidly 10 deep, all legitimately good players. Nash would have killed to have 8.

As a huge Nash fan, one thing that I can say is I don't think the stats show his full impact on the game. If there was such a thing as an assisted assist, I think Nash would be near the top of the all time leaderboard there too. The way his presence seemed to instantly open up the offense to everyone was just uncanny -- I've been watching basketball for a while and I've never seen a player who had that kind of impact on other players. That to me is the definition of what a point guard should do on offense, so I consider Nash the best offensive point guard of all time.

All that said, these discussions are cool when it turns into a celebration of great players. No matter where you side -- this thread has been great because people are passionately defending their point of view with facts and details that help us remember the great ones.

Repped, and I'll try to remember to rep some others as well.


Also, if you put two people in a blender you're going to end up with a bloody mess.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

https://turnernbahangtime.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/20141024_nash.gif

Unparalleled offensive impact.

[Dro]

Hes overrated lucky he played on one of the most stacked and GOAT defenses. Its arguably he wasnt even the best Piston during their best days

PGs that were better

Magic
Oscar
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Payton

Then Zeke or KJ........Peak Penny and Baron were better too.
:biggums:

No, just no. Stop disrespecting that man like that. Baron Davis not better than ****ing Isaiah Thomas and you know it. Baron Davis is underrated too...

[bizil]

I don't agree with you, I feel like you're exaggerating ever so slightly and that's enough to make all the difference.. If I want someone to post 30ppg I'm picking AI over Isiah every single time. Both Stockton and Nash were far more efficient shooters than Isiah and that is pretty indisputable. We never saw what would happen if someone like Nash decided to be a volume scorer, except for briefly in that series against Dallas when they dared him to. But I'm pretty confident that both Stockton and Nash could score right around 20-22ppg with Isiah if they had to. If we're talking about supporting casts, I think Isiah had the best. Their 88 team especially was solidly 10 deep, all legitimately good players. Nash would have killed to have 8.

As a huge Nash fan, one thing that I can say is I don't think the stats show his full impact on the game. If there was such a thing as an assisted assist, I think Nash would be near the top of the all time leaderboard there too. The way his presence seemed to instantly open up the offense to everyone was just uncanny -- I've been watching basketball for a while and I've never seen a player who had that kind of impact on other players. That to me is the definition of what a point guard should do on offense, so I consider Nash the best offensive point guard of all time.

All that said, these discussions are cool when it turns into a celebration of great players. No matter where you side -- this thread has been great because people are passionately defending their point of view with facts and details that help us remember the great ones.

Repped, and I'll try to remember to rep some others as well.


Also, if you put two people in a blender you're going to end up with a bloody mess.

Well said! When it comes to Nash, he combined shooting, passing, and handles better than ANY PG EVER until Steph Curry came around. Isiah and Nash are both pass first PG's who have alpha dog level scoring ability. Both proved it during their careers. But I just prefer Isiah's speed and defensive ability over Nash. Those are the tiebreakers when comparing them peak wise.

When it comes to AI vs. Isiah, I'm fine if people think AI is the better scorer. AI redefined the game being an undersized SG. The score first PG's u see today are a reflection of what AI did in many ways.

With that said, Isiah was capable of dominating scoring on AI's level. Isiah could have redefined the SG position in the 80's if he wanted to. They could have EASILY put Dumars at PG full time and let Isiah wreak havoc.

BUT Isiah was a pass first PG who could ALSO DOMINATE scoring. When a guy thinks like that, he's better off at the PG. U can play puppet master in an EPIC way when u think like that.

If u asked NBA execs in the late 80's to name the top three alpha dog scoring guards in the league, they would tell u MJ, Magic, and Isiah. Even though Magic and Isiah were pass first PG's EVERYBODY knew they could dominate a game scoring the rock.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

:biggums:

No, just no. Stop disrespecting that man like that. Baron Davis not better than ****ing Isaiah Thomas and you know it. Baron Davis is underrated too...
PEAK Baron Davis.........not career. Isiah was never as good as 07 Biddy

[24-Inch_Chrome]

PEAK Baron Davis.........not career. Isiah was never as good as 07 Biddy

:whatever:

[Mrofir]

One little fun post to prop up our perhaps underrated friend J. Stockton.

During a 5 season stretch he put up the following numbers:

ppg/apg/steals/shooting

14.7/13.8/3.0 --- 57.4!!/35.8/84
17.1/13.6/3.2 --- 53.8/24.2/86.3
17.2/14.5/2.7 --- 51.4/41.6/82
17.2/14.2/2.9 --- 50.7/34.5/83.6
15.8/13.7/3.0 --- 48.2/40.7/84


or in other words

5 consecutive seasons with roughly 14 assists per game. 400 games in a row averaging 14 assists.

400 games in a row averaging 3 steals per game.

:bowdown:

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

One little fun post to prop up our perhaps underrated friend J. Stockton.

During a 5 season stretch he put up the following numbers:

ppg/apg/steals/shooting

14.7/13.8/3.0 --- 57.4!!/35.8/84
17.1/13.6/3.2 --- 53.8/24.2/86.3
17.2/14.5/2.7 --- 51.4/41.6/82
17.2/14.2/2.9 --- 50.7/34.5/83.6
15.8/13.7/3.0 --- 48.2/40.7/84


or in other words

5 consecutive seasons with roughly 14 assists per game. 400 games in a row averaging 14 assists.

400 games in a row averaging 3 steals per game.

:bowdown:
Stockton also outplayed Magic in their 88 series but nikkas never bring it up.............

[bizil]

PEAK Baron Davis.........not career. Isiah was never as good as 07 Biddy

Peak Baron was more physically gifted than Isiah. And he had a better scoring skillset because he could post up and shoot better. I would even say Baron was the more effective defender. But Baron never got the most out of his ability due to injuries.

At his best, he was getting 23 points and 8 dimes. But as a total offensive player, Zeke was superior. Zeke was just as good of a scorer and a better passer. Baron falls into a "what if" category because of those injuries. Very early into his career, BD was catching that injury bug hard:

2002-2003: Played in 50 games
2003-2004: 67 games
2004-2005: 46 games
2005-2006: 54 games
2006-2007: 63 games

So the injury bug stopped Baron from even thinking about being better than Isiah. His career didn't have the arc it needed to have to better than Zeke at any point. 2007 Baron was a beast. But ITS FAR FROM THE SEASONS guys like Big O, Magic, Isiah, Nash, Tiny, etc. had. Or even guys from today like Westbrook and Curry.

[houston]

Magic
Oscar
Zeke
Walt
Kidd

top 5 of all-time pg


Zeke don't get props like that cause the bad boys were villians.