List of the best Defenders who ever guarded MJ and Lebron

[3ball]

.
Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding Lebron

Kobe
Shawn Marion
Andre Igoudala
Kawhi Leonard
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Paul George
Ron Artest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90)
Thabo Sefalosha
Shane Battier (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10924107&postcount=24)
Tony Allen
Raja Bell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s)
Dwayne Wade



Every SG and SF who was All-Defensive Team while guarding MJ

Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)
Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404)
Derrick McKey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10536861&postcount=264)
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Anthony Mason
Clifford Robinson
Nate McMillan
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Bobby Phills
Paul Pressey
Rodney McCray
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Kevin Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753)***



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8)
Dominique Wilkins (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25)
Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Penny Hardaway (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24)
Grant Hill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322)
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18)
Richard Dumas (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30)
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the list above doesn't include many of the tremendous offensive wings that MJ faced including: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034)


***You'll notice that I included a prime Garnett in MJ's list, since he and MJ both played SF in 2002 - in their first meeting when MJ was a Wizard, they were matched up SF vs. SF for the entire game.. MJ scored 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable from the opening tip - at the 4:00 mark, Jordan scores on Garnett for 5 consecutive possessions, with the announcers getting more excited each time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4

Lebron was never guarded by a prime Garnett.. I doubt he would have the quickness to make it a huge mismatch like MJ did.. After all, guys like Boris Diaw, Gordon Hayward fare well against Lebron defensively.
.

[Rose'sACL]

Lol@ diaw faring well.

[DonDadda59]

Lol@ diaw faring well.

Bron shot 3/18 while being guarded by him in the '13 Finals :confusedshrug:

[zizozain]

Celtics D >>>

[sd3035]

Jason Terry?

[Prometheus]

Well, I suppose Jordan did better against a greater number of quality defenders. I suppose that's just because he was a far superior offensive player.

Not much to it really!

:applause:

[TripleA]

.
I made a new thread this since Prometheus said I was derailing the other thread.. :rolleyes:


Lebron's Best Defenders

Shawn Marion
Kawhi Leonard
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest



MJ's Best Defenders

Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)
Gary Payton
Michael Cooper
Stacey Augmon
Derrick Mckey
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
Reggie Lewis
Shawn Marion
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Ron Harper
Gerald Wilkins
Jerome Kersey
Clifford Robinson
Anthony Mason


I also wanted to add prime Garnett to MJ's list, since he and MJ both played SF in 2002 - in their first meeting when MJ was a Wizard, they were matched up SF vs. SF for the entire game.. MJ scored 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable from the opening tip - at the 4:00 mark, Jordan scores on Garnett for 5 consecutive possessions, with the announcers getting more excited each time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4

Lebron was never guarded by a prime Garnett.. I doubt he would have the quickness to make it a huge mismatch like MJ did.. After all, guys like Boris Diaw, Gordon Hayward fare well against Lebron defensively.


I'could add scrub offensive players but good defenders like Thabo seflosha, trevor ariza and the type of defenders that hurt lebron the most are great rim protecters that stop his easy layups like roy hibbert, dwight howard, tyson chandler, tim duncan causing him to shoot jumpers.

[Rose'sACL]

Bron shot 3/18 while being guarded by him in the '13 Finals :confusedshrug:
I guess Pop is not a great coach by your logic then. Why didn't he use diaw on lebron in game 6 4th quarter or game 7. I am sure a lot of players have shot poorly against a lot of players for short stretches.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Bron shot 3/18 while being guarded by him in the '13 Finals :confusedshrug:

:bowdown:

[Prometheus]

I guess Pop is not a great coach by your logic then. Why didn't he use diaw on lebron in game 6 4th quarter or game 7. I am sure a lot of players have shot poorly against a lot of players for short stretches.

This. Diaw can't guard LeBron worth shit. They were sagging off, and LeBron was going through a cold streak.

[TripleA]

LIke I said rim protecter are best defenders of lebron

[DonDadda59]

This. Diaw can't guard LeBron worth shit. They were sagging off, and LeBron was going through a cold streak.

Psychological warfare. Pop and Boris psyched him out by forcing him to rely on his shaky jumper knowing what a mental midget Bron is. Defense isn't all physical. Lord knows Diaw with his Burger King body can't physically contain Bron.

[TripleA]

Psychological warfare. Pop and Boris psyched him out by forcing him to rely on his shaky jumper knowing what a mental midget Bron is. Defense isn't all physical. Lord knows Diaw with his Burger King body can't physically contain Bron.

Why do you hate Lebron so much, I know he is not as good as jordan but why do salty jordan stans always compare him to goat but instead compare him to players like kobe, magic or bird.

[Prometheus]

Psychological warfare. Pop and Boris psyched him out by forcing him to rely on his shaky jumper knowing what a mental midget Bron is. Defense isn't all physical. Lord knows Diaw with his Burger King body can't physically contain Bron.

They didn't put Diaw on him until he was well into his cold streak doe.

[Smoke117]

So you are saying that Lebron is > Kobe then? I don't see a MJ vs Kobe list of best defensive players after all...

You going to take that from 3ball, Kobe stans?

[Spurs5Rings2014]

I thought Diaw did a fairly good job on LeBron that series. LeBron just got ridiculously hot from outside later on. You can't really stop anyone who hits all their jumpers like that.

[Haymaker]

Where is Vernon Maxwell?

[fsvr54]

Dumars ceased to exist?

[DonDadda59]

Why do you hate Lebron so much, I know he is not as good as jordan but why do salty jordan stans always compare him to goat but instead compare him to players like kobe, magic or bird.

We didn't start the fire.

http://www.american-buddha.com/abatman381b_small.jpg


You going to take that from 3ball, Kobe stans?

The Kobe stans are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. KennethGriffin and Mr.Jabbar are all that's left of their religion.

[3ball]

They were sagging off (in 2013)...


The Spurs completely transformed the way they guarded Lebron in 2014 vs. 2013.

In 2013, the Spurs were enamored with the stats showing Lebron shoots a whopping 40% of his shots at the rim, and finishes 75%.. Accordingly, they felt they had to prevent him from getting to the hole, so they gave him wide open jumpshots - the stats ALSO showed he shot poorly from mid-range and long two's, so there was some rationale for using this approach... The strategy did okay - Lebron averaged 25 PPG on 45%.

But after getting their heart broke in 2013, the Spurs went back to the drawing board and figured out a BETTER way to guard Lebron - they noticed that since he came to Miami, his shot attempts were down, and he focused on keeping his efficiency high.. They exploited this by playing him straight up, since his efficiency-approach made him not a threat for a big scoring game..

The straight-up approach allowed them to stay at home and shut his teammates down, which led to the Heat getting destroyed by record margin - the counter to this strategy was for Lebron to take advantage of the straight-up defense and go off for 40 PPG, thus giving his team a chance to win.. But unfortunately, his basketball acumen deficit did not allow him to figure out that straight-up defense means he should try to go off for a huge game - honestly, one 40 point game would have done it, then the Spurs would've gone back to letting him shoot wide open jumpers..

[Kvnzhangyay]

The Spurs completely transformed the way they guarded Lebron in 2014 vs. 2013.

In 2013, the Spurs were enamored with the stats showing Lebron shoots a whopping 40% of his shots at the rim, and finishes 75%.. Accordingly, they felt they had to prevent him from getting to the hole, so they gave him wide open jumpshots - the stats ALSO showed he shot poorly from mid-range and long two's, so there was some rationale for using this approach... The strategy did okay - Lebron averaged 25 PPG on 45%.

But after getting their heart broke in 2013, the Spurs went back to the drawing board and figured out a BETTER way to guard Lebron - they noticed that since he came to Miami, his shot attempts were down, and he focused on keeping his efficiency high.. They exploited this by playing him straight up, since his efficiency-approach made him not a threat for a big scoring game..

The straight-up approach allowed them to stay at home and shut his teammates down, which led to the Heat getting destroyed by record margin - the counter to this strategy was for Lebron to take advantage of the straight-up defense and go off for 40 PPG, thus giving his team a chance to win.. But unfortunately, his basketball acumen deficit did not allow him to figure out that straight-up defense means he should try to go off for a huge game - honestly, one 40 point game would have done it, then the Spurs would've gone back to letting him shoot wide open jumpers..

and you know more than him? It can definitely be argued Lebron is mentally weak (and has a strong case), etc., but his basketball knowledge just can't be...

[3ball]

Where is Vernon Maxwell?


Good point.. Maxwell played MJ tough and didn't back down.. they almost fight at the 4:28 mark - MJ talks some junk to Vernon after finishing over Hakeem for 7th time of the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7N_qSFAsP8





Dumars ceased to exist?


Forgot about Dumars - but I always thought it was more the team defense of the Bad Boys rather than Dumars specifically.. Along with the of the Celtics, Lakers, Hawks and Knicks (among other teams), the Pistons were one of the better paint-camping and physical teams in the league at that time.

[3ball]

and you know more than him? It can definitely be argued Lebron is mentally weak (and has a strong case), etc., but his basketball knowledge just can't be...
of course it can - look how bad his efficiency approach failed... look how dumb that approach is period... his team literally got beat worse than any team ever has - his approach couldn't have worked WORSE.

and lebron isn't the kind of guy to change what he'd been going all year - he'd bought into the whole efficiency thing, and he wasn't going to change mid-Finals.. and you see this year, he's much less concerned about efficiency - he learned that shooting 55% doesn't guarantee victory.

during the 2014 Finals, Lebron admitted to a reporter in the post-game press conferences that he was shocked to be shooting so well and losing so bad.. spurs had him bamboozled mentally - the efficiency thing had him so blinded, that the thought of taking over and going for huge scoring games didn't even occur to him - like, he thought that was BAD.

not only did the efficiency thing blind him, but if he was such a smart basketball player, why doesn't he play off-ball more or on the post more?

[Kvnzhangyay]

of course it can - look how bad his efficiency approach failed... look how dumb that approach is period... his team literally got beat worse than any team ever has - his approach couldn't have worked WORSE.

and lebron isn't the kind of guy to change what he'd been going all year - he'd bought into the whole efficiency thing, and he wasn't going to change mid-Finals.. and you see this year, he's much less concerned about efficiency - he learned that shooting 55% doesn't guarantee victory.

during the 2014 Finals, Lebron admitted to a reporter in the post-game press conferences that he was shocked to be shooting so well and losing so bad.. spurs had him bamboozled mentally - the efficiency thing had him so blinded, that the thought of taking over and going for huge scoring games didn't even occur to him - like, he thought that was BAD.

not only did the efficiency thing blind him, but if he was such a smart basketball player, why doesn't he play off-ball more or on the post more?

maybe because what you think is better is not?

[3ball]

maybe because what you think is better is not?
lebron's team lost by more than any team ever has in the Finals.

that means you could've replaced him with literally anyone in the world - you or me - and the same thing happens - the Heat lose by record margin..

so yeah, i'm quite certain Lebron's pursuit of efficiency over all else was suboptimal.

the stats back me up - In 21 out of the 24 years since 1991, the team leader in shot attempts on the Finals-winning team took more than 25.56% of the team's shots - which means that the load Lebron took on in 2014 Finals (25.56% of his team's shots) was not a large load, and the notion that he couldn't have done more, or that no one else would've done more, is wrong - 21 out of the last 24 did more.

also, the guys that DID win while shooting less than Lebron - they all had well-balanced teams (KG's 08' Celtics, Parker's Spurs, Rip Hamilton's Pistons).. the Heat were top heavy - they OBVIOUSLY needed Lebron to take over, especially once it was evident the Spurs were playing him straight up - but he was too addicted and blinded by the efficiency strategy he'd employed all year to see the obvious.
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

lebron's team lost by more than any team ever has in the Finals.

that means you could've replaced him with literally anyone in the world - you or me - and the same thing happens - the Heat lose by record margin..

so yeah, i'm quite certain Lebron's pursuit of efficiency over all else was suboptimal.

the stats back me up - In 21 out of the 24 years since 1991, the team leader in shot attempts on the Finals-winning team took more than 25.56% of the team's shots - which means that the load Lebron took on in 2014 Finals (25.56% of his team's shots) was not a large load, and the notion that he couldn't have done more, or that no one else would've done more, is wrong - 21 out of the last 24 did more.

also, the guys that DID win while shooting less than Lebron - they all had well-balanced teams (KG's 08' Celtics, Parker's Spurs, Rip Hamilton's Pistons).. the Heat were top heavy - they OBVIOUSLY needed Lebron to take over, especially once it was evident the Spurs were playing him straight up - but he was too addicted and blinded by the efficiency strategy he'd employed all year to see the obvious.
.

Before going any further, how can you prove that he was employing an "efficiency strategy"?

[poido123]

Fatass Diaw


Midget Barea


Jason Terry



You can clearly see how tough Lebron's defenders have been over the years. I don't know why anyone would think Jordan had better defenders on him.

[3ball]

Before going any further, how can you prove that he was employing an "efficiency strategy"?
that's like me asking you to prove OJ's guilty.

[sdot_thadon]

I dunno, I think they both faced some great and good defenders. Lebron's era is more competitive at his position by far though.

Also your list is missing guys like ariza, thabo, Caron butler, young josh smith, etc.

[3ball]

It's important to remember that the skill needed to play basketball in no-spacing was much higher, which produced superior players.

With no spacing in previous eras, the option of running offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and get an open shot wasn't available, so players had to settle for contested shots more often.. When teams don't run as much offense and settle for contested shots instead, pace and shot volume increase.

The volume shooting associated with 2-pointer basketball and the wider repertoires needed to navigate defenders in closer proximity enabled previous era wings to put more pressure on defenders than today's wings - higher volume and wider repertoires meant previous eras wings were more of a threat to go off for a big game than today's 3-and-D players.

Otoh, today's game requires a slower pace - the spacing necessitates running more offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and set up open 3-point looks.. Also, smaller offensive repertoires are necessary for the wider lanes provided by 3-point shooting and spacing-out environments.. Naturally, it's not surprise that today's 3-and-D wings are less of a threat to go off for a big game and pose less of a threat individually to the defense.. Again, this is in contrast to the more diverse mid-range games of previous eras, which enabled repeated contested shots and therefore less time-consuming offense.
.

[CavaliersFTW]

Boris Diaw, Jason Terry, and JJ Barea

[3ball]

i forgot Nate McMillan..

btw, the only guys on MJ's list of defenders that didn't receive All-NBA Defense distinction was Reggie Lewis, Gerald Wilkins, Jerome Kersey and Ron Harper.
.

[3ball]

Lebron's era is more competitive at his position by far though.


Can you list some (or all, if you want) of the best SF's from Lebron's era so I can compare to the list below?


Best SF's 1984-1998

Larry Bird
Dr. J
Scottie Pippen
Dominique Wilkins
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill

Honorable Mention: Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034), Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta,, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas

Defensive Specialists: Dennis Rodman, Derrick McKey, Rodney McCray, Clifford Robinson, Anthony Mason, Paul Pressey, George Lynch, Jerome Kersey, Stacey Augmon
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

that's like me asking you to prove OJ's guilty.

Uh, no its not

[sdot_thadon]

Can you list some (or all, if you want) of the best SF's from Lebron's era so I can compare to the list below?


Best SF's 1984-1998

Larry Bird
Dr. J
Scottie Pippen
Dominique Wilkins
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill

Honorable Mention: Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034), Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta,, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas

Defensive Specialists: Dennis Rodman, Derrick McKey, Rodney McCray, Clifford Robinson, Anthony Mason, Paul Pressey, George Lynch, Jerome Kersey, Stacey Augmon
.
Than sg was for Mj dude, lol. Calm down.

Oh you forgot another few guys lebron had to deal with. Tony allen, james posey, Paul pierce, kobe (duh), Danny granger, Richard jefferson, vince, etc.

[Trollsmasher]

Never heard about a half of those "MJ defenders"

Should not be surprising, because there were about 15 players in the whole league capable of playing something resembling defense in the '80s/'90s

[sdot_thadon]

Never heard about a half of those "MJ defenders"

Should not be surprising, because there were about 15 players in the whole league capable of playing something resembling defense in the '80s/'90s
Probably cause you're too young lol. Mj faced some capable guys here and there. I do feel lebron has faced more troublesome defenders though.

[senelcoolidge]

Probably cause you're too young lol. Mj faced some capable guys here and there. I do feel lebron has faced more troublesome defenders though.

That list of MJ defenders is impressive. The Lebron list not so much in total. Old MJ really made a prime KG look bad in that video. Nice find.

[Prometheus]

The Spurs completely transformed the way they guarded Lebron in 2014 vs. 2013.

In 2013, the Spurs were enamored with the stats showing Lebron shoots a whopping 40% of his shots at the rim, and finishes 75%.. Accordingly, they felt they had to prevent him from getting to the hole, so they gave him wide open jumpshots - the stats ALSO showed he shot poorly from mid-range and long two's, so there was some rationale for using this approach... The strategy did okay - Lebron averaged 25 PPG on 45%.

But after getting their heart broke in 2013, the Spurs went back to the drawing board and figured out a BETTER way to guard Lebron - they noticed that since he came to Miami, his shot attempts were down, and he focused on keeping his efficiency high.. They exploited this by playing him straight up, since his efficiency-approach made him not a threat for a big scoring game..

The straight-up approach allowed them to stay at home and shut his teammates down, which led to the Heat getting destroyed by record margin - the counter to this strategy was for Lebron to take advantage of the straight-up defense and go off for 40 PPG, thus giving his team a chance to win.. But unfortunately, his basketball acumen deficit did not allow him to figure out that straight-up defense means he should try to go off for a huge game - honestly, one 40 point game would have done it, then the Spurs would've gone back to letting him shoot wide open jumpers..

:applause:

I can't believe how many people seemingly did not even watch these past Finals. They refer to LeBron being dared to shoot - which is completely false. After he proved he could beat them from the outside, Pop flipped the script and had Kawhi play him tight.

I somewhat agree with you on LeBron's approach as well - although I think you're still being a little biased. Not only did the Spurs get RED HOT, like the entire team just began shooting lights out in a way that no other team has... ever... (or at least in the past 15 years that I've been closely following basketball)... but literally everyone on Miami was just god awful. Chalmers became a walking turnover, Wade could no longer get his own shots or even put the ball on the floor against Green, and all of their shooters went cold.

Basically I would have liked to see LeBron be more aggressive, but with how absurdly bad his teammates were playing, and how blistering the Spurs were on offense, it's pretty hard to see it making much of a difference.

And the shots/game argument about LeBron is faulty since he missed the ends of four games - three due to blowout and one due to heat cramps.

[andgar923]

Boris Diaw, Jason Terry, and JJ Barea
CP3

[andgar923]

This. Diaw can't guard LeBron worth shit. They were sagging off, and LeBron was going through a cold streak.

And he also couldn't drive past him or get the position he wanted.

[f0und]

much more impressive list for mj. whats more, is that when he would get past those defenders, he still had to contend with a plethora of bigs from the best big man era.

[pauk]

I will redo this for you, more accurately.... here are the all-nba defenders who actually guarded Lebron/Jordan regularely....

Best defenders Lebron went up against:

Ron Artest (1st all-defense)
Tony Allen (1st all-defense)
Kawhi Leonard (1st all-defense)
Andrei Kirelinko (1st all-defense)
Gerald Wallace (1st all-defense)
Bruce Bowen (1st all-defense)
Andre Igoudala (1st all-defense)
Paul George (1st all-defense)
Shane Battier (1st all-defense)
Kobe Bryant (1st all-defense)
Thabo Sefolosha (1st all-defense)
Doug Christie (1st all-defense)
Raja Bell (1st all-defense)
Tayshaun Prince (2nd all-defense)
Jimmy Butler (2nd all-defense)
Dwyane Wade (2nd all-defense)
Luol Deng (2nd all-defense)

Best defenders Jordan went up against:

Gary Payton (1st all-defense)
Michael Cooper (1st all-defense)
Alvin Robertson (1st all-defense)
Sidney Moncrief (1st all-defense)
Joe Dumars (1st all-defensive)
Dennis Johnson (1st all-defensive)
Eddie Jones (2nd all-defense)
Nate McMillan (2nd all-defense)
Reggie Lewis (blocked prime Jordan 4 times in a game!)

Not sure if i should count 2001-2003 for Jordan? Because there you could add Kobe Bryant, Clifford Robinson & Doug Christie aswell.

[Champ]

Add Reggie Lewis to MJ's list.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni7t4swtdYw

RIP, Reggie.

[pauk]

Add Reggie Lewis to MJ's list.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni7t4swtdYw

RIP, Reggie.

Wasnt all-nba D, but dayum, with that video... he earns a spot :D

[Champ]

From Joe Dumars:

You know, Jackie MacMullan did a great story on him a couple of weeks ago

[Prometheus]

And he also couldn't drive past him or get the position he wanted.

... because they were sagging off...

[He Strong]

OP didn't mention Joe Dumars even though MJ himself said he had most troubles with him? :biggums:

[3ball]

Oh you forgot another few guys lebron had to deal with. Tony allen, james posey, Paul pierce, kobe (duh), Danny granger, Richard jefferson, vince, etc.


Pierce, Vince, Granger and Jefferson are not considered GREAT defenders - they are only considered decent (Vince and Jefferson are actually bad defenders - I've scored on Jefferson repeatedly before, to where his teammate Luke Walton had to point out to him that LA ****** can play.. :confusedshrug: ... I wasn't even from LA, but that's where we were).

My list only included GREAT defenders - All-NBA - and also 4 guys that were considered very good defenders, but not not All-NBA - Lewis, Harper, Kersey, G Wilkins.

But if you want to start listing merely good or decent defenders, then there's a ton of great two-way players that I didn't list at all - Drexler, Penny, Grant Hill, Sprewell, Dominique, Sean Elliot, Michael Finley, Kendall Gill, Richard Dumas, Jim Jackson, Nick Anderson, Jerry Stackhouse.. :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

MacMullan described one game during which Lewis blocked Michael Jordan four separate times. When reminded of the incident 22 years later, Jordan laughed and said he remembered it. The G.O.A.T. (greatest player of all time) explained how Lewis' length bothered him and even forced him to become tentative, because he tried to break down the Celtics guard and didn't have much success.

"He was a tough matchup," Jordan told MacMullan. "He had those long arms that really bothered me. I was trying to be aggressive with him. I was trying to take advantage of his passive demeanor, but he didn't back down. He never relinquished his own aggressiveness.

"He shocked me a little bit."


Ah yes, the story of how someone discovered that Reggie Lewis once blocked MJ 4 times in one game, which prompted a news story 22 years after the fact.

At the actual time when the two were going head-to-head as starting SG's from 1990-1992, there was NEVER a story about Lewis guarding MJ well, because the stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=lewisre01#stats::none) and footage (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10667188&postcount=19) prove that MJ actually destroyed him worse than the average defender - Lewis was never one of the guys considered to have played MJ well.

Only 22 years later, when someone discovers that someone blocked the mighty Jordan 4 times, does it becomes a story that the near-billionaire MJ has to graciously comment on.. :rolleyes:

[3ball]

Basically I would have liked to see LeBron be more aggressive, but with how absurdly bad his teammates were playing, and how blistering the Spurs were on offense, it's pretty hard to see it making much of a difference.


40 PPG, 6 APG, 3 TO is a completely different level of play from 28 PPG, 4 APG, 4 TO.

I can't overstate how much better and how much higher a level of play it is - Lebron would've looked TOTALLY DIFFERENT if he had played at the level necessary to achieve those numbers.. This fact eludes you because the Spurs running roughshod is so tattoed on your brain, which is understandable, but you can't let that blind you from how much better 40/6/3 is than 28/4/4.

If Lebron had gotten even one 40 point game (probably Game 1 if he hadn't cramped up), the Spurs would've come back the next game swarming and double-teaming him like it was the Jordan Rules.. The entire series would have been different.. Btw, if Lebron gets 40 in Game 1, Heat win.. Even if the Spurs don't double-team him in Game 2, then Lebron just gets another 40 and the Spurs have a decision to make for Game 3.. But normally, teams come out the very next game (Game 2) and make the adjustment.

[Kvnzhangyay]

40 PPG, 6 APG, 3 TO is a completely different level of play from 28 PPG, 4 APG, 4 TO.

I can't overstate how much better and how much higher a level of play it is - Lebron would've looked TOTALLY DIFFERENT if he had played at the level necessary to achieve those numbers.. This fact eludes you because the Spurs running roughshod is so tattoed on your brain, which is understandable, but you can't let that blind you from how much better 40/6/3 is than 28/4/4.

If Lebron had gotten even one 40 point game (probably Game 1 if he hadn't cramped up), the Spurs would've come back the next game swarming and double-teaming him like it was the Jordan Rules.. The entire series would have been different.. Btw, if Lebron gets 40 in Game 1, Heat win.. Even if the Spurs don't double-team him in Game 2, then Lebron just gets another 40 and the Spurs have a decision to make for Game 3.. But normally, teams come out the very next game (Game 2) and make the adjustment.

:facepalm

[3ball]

:facepalm
it was 94-92 and the Heat immediately fell apart when he left the game - the heat don't collapse if he doesn't leave the game and if he can step it up down the stretch like true greats are supposed to.

however, truthfully, Lebron had 3 assists and 4 turnovers - so his ENTIRE LEVEL OF PLAY needed to be quite a bit higher... but nonetheless, the Heat didn't collapse until he left the game, and if he could've stepped up his performance down the stretch of that game like greats are supposed to, the Heat win.
.

[3ball]

.
REVISED LIST


Lebron's Best Defenders (All-NBA Defense Only)

Kobe
Shawn Marion
Kawhi Leonard
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier



MJ's Best Defenders (All-NBA Defense Only)

Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)
Gary Payton
Michael Cooper
Derrick Mckey
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
Shawn Marion
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Clifford Robinson
Anthony Mason
Nate McMillan
Kevin Garnett
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Penny Hardaway (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24)
Grant Hill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322)
Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8)
Dominique Wilkins (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25)
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18)
Richard Dumas (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30)
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


The list above doesn't include the tremendous offensive players MJ faced including: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Jim Jackson

Otoh, today's 3-and-D game has produced less wing players that are a threat to go off for a big offensive game like the players mentioned above who had elite individual offensive skill - accordingly, Lebron doesn't have the defensive burden defending today's 3-and-D bots, compared to MJ having to guard the elite offensive skill of King, Worthy and the like.
.

[34-24 Footwork]

.
REVISED LIST


Lebron's Best Defenders (All-NBA Defense Only)

Kobe
Shawn Marion
Kawhi Leonard
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Shane Battier



MJ's Best Defenders (All-NBA Defense Only)

Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)
Gary Payton
Michael Cooper
Stacey Augmon
Derrick Mckey
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
Shawn Marion
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Clifford Robinson
Anthony Mason
Nate McMillan
Kevin Garnett
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Penny Hardaway (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24)
Grant Hill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322)
Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8)
Dominique Wilkins (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25)
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18)
Richard Dumas (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30)
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


The list above doesn't the tremendous offensive players MJ faced including Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Jim Jackson

stop debating these guys. They TRULY believe that shooting 50+% while getting slaughtered worse than ANY TEAM in NBA history>>> winning while shooting 42% from the field.

New Generation basketball fans bro.

[Roundball_Rock]

"There is one guy who can guard me. Fortunately he is on my team."--Michael Jordan

[Champ]

Ah yes, the story of how someone discovered that Reggie Lewis once blocked MJ 4 times in one game, which prompted a news story 22 years after the fact.

At the actual time when the two were going head-to-head as starting SG's from 1990-1992, there was NEVER a story about Lewis guarding MJ well, because the stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=lewisre01#stats::none) and footage (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10667188&postcount=19) prove that MJ actually destroyed him worse than the average defender - Lewis was never one of the guys considered to have played MJ well.

Only 22 years later, when someone discovers that someone blocked the mighty Jordan 4 times, does it becomes a story that the near-billionaire MJ has to graciously comment on.. :rolleyes:

Your stats include Lewis' early games as a role-player, and your footage doesn't include the games where Jordan struggled against him.

Re-post with a more balanced assessment.

Until then, I'll take Jordan's and Dumars' accounts over your skewed argument.

[HurricaneKid]

MJ's Best Defenders

Michael Cooper
Sidney Moncrief



They were 29 and 30 when MJ came into the league and were both out of the league by the time MJ was winning titles.




MJ's Best Defenders

Jerome Kersey
Anthony Mason
Dennis Rodman



If you think any of these guys ever covered MJ you are not old enough to have watched MJ. Mason? Are you off your rocker??




MJ's Best Defenders

Shawn Marion



Came into the league in time to catch MJ in a Wizards jersey. Never once played against MJ on the Bulls.

You put together these longwinded nonsense posts and have NO. IDEA. WHAT. YOU. ARE. TALKING. ABOUT.

[Keno]

the dpoy guarded lebron, and lebron won.

[Beastmode88]

the dpoy guarded lebron, and lebron won.

lebron won a ring last year?

[oarabbus]

the dpoy guarded lebron, and lebron won.

actually the DPOY won FMVP :roll:

[3ball]

Mason? Are you off your rocker??


Mason was a great defender - All-NBA... And he absolutely guarded MJ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L2_Yp09-As).

Mason would've been the perfect defender for Lebron - an athletic Boris Diaw - literally, not joking... He was big, strong, athletic, and tough - and obviously, when MJ played him, he was available to guard MJ every game.. But MJ's typical GOAT stats or performance were never deterred by Mason.





Came into the league in time to catch MJ in a Wizards jersey. Never once played against MJ on the Bulls.


Wizard MJ (old man MJ) destroyed Shawn Marion for 41 points, all on Shawn Marion, and hit a game winner on him in another game... That's MORE impressive than if he'd have played Marion in his prime as a Bull:

41 points, all on Shawn Marion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg
Game-winner in Marion's face: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg
Would-be GW on Marion in All-Star game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPmPu-JxJ9A
.

[3ball]

Your stats include Lewis' early games as a role-player, and your footage doesn't include the games where Jordan struggled against him.

Re-post with a more balanced assessment.




All Games of MJ vs. Lewis, starting SG vs. starting SG:


.........................Date............MP....... ....FG%....REB...AST.....PTS

Michael Jordan....12/6/88.... 43:00:00........0.70........9........5........38
Reggie Lewis...... 12/6/88.... 43:00:00.......0.54........6........4........33

Michael Jordan.... 1/15/89.... 41:00:00.......0.56........9.......11........42
Reggie Lewis...... 1/15/89.... 40:00:00.......0.52........7........3.........32

Michael Jordan.... 11/4/89.... 34:00:00.......0.55........5........6.........24
Reggie Lewis...... 11/4/89.... 35:00:00.......0.42........2........2.........15

Michael Jordan.... 3/4/90..... 40:00:00.......0.47........6.......11........36
Reggie Lewis...... 3/4/90..... 28:00:00.......0.33........3........1..........8

Michael Jordan.... 4/17/90.... 36:00:00.......0.54.......11.......6.........35
Reggie Lewis...... 4/17/90.... 37:00:00.......0.84........3........2.........24

Michael Jordan.... 4/20/90.... 35:00:00.......0.72........8.......9..........45
Reggie Lewis...... 4/20/90.... 40:00:00.......0.52........7.......4..........28

Michael Jordan.... 11/6/90.... 45:00:00.......0.50........8.......12........33
Reggie Lewis...... 11/6/90.... 19:00 :00......0.71.........2........1........13

Michael Jordan.... 11/9/90.... 34:00:00.......0.68........5........6.........41
Reggie Lewis...... 11/9/90.... 35:00:00.......0.35........4........3.........11

Michael Jordan.... 2/26/91.... 35:00:00.......0.58........8........4.........39
Reggie Lewis...... 2/26/91.... 23:00:00.......0.62........3........1.........10

Michael Jordan.... 3/31/91.... 51:00:00.......0.33........7........9.........37
Reggie Lewis...... 3/31/91.... 53:00:00.......0.50........3........2.........25

Michael Jordan.... 11/6/91.... 38:00:00.......0.62........3........6.........44
Reggie Lewis...... 11/6/91.... 38:00:00.......0.47........3........2.........21

Michael Jordan.... 12/25/91.. 35:00:00.......0.42........8........5.........14
Reggie Lewis...... 12/25/91.. 34:00:00.......0.47........6........2.........20

Michael Jordan.... 3/11/92.... 35:00:00.......0.60.......13.......3.........32
Reggie Lewis...... 3/11/92.... 30:00:00.......0.28........8........1.........11

Michael Jordan.... 4/5/92..... 40:00:00.......0.42........2........2.........26
Reggie Lewis...... 4/5/92..... 38:00:00.......0.46........1........7.........21

Michael Jordan.... 12/5/92.... 37:00:00.......0.40........3........5.........24
Reggie Lewis...... 12/5/92.... 36:00:00.......0.26........5........1.........12

Michael Jordan.... 1/18/93... 30:00:00.......0.45........8........3.........29
Reggie Lewis...... 1/18/93.... 37:00:00.......0.50........2........1.........21

Michael Jordan.... 4/4/93..... 40:00:00.......0.60........5........2.........32
Reggie Lewis...... 4/4/93..... 44:00:00.......0.22........5........2.........11


MJ's Averages: 33.6 PPG, 6.9 RPG, 6.2 APG, 54.2% FG

Here is footage of MJ vs. Lewis, starting SG vs. starting SG - footage (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10667188&postcount=19)

Source of Data: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=lewisre01#stats::none


Reggie did block MJ 4 times once tho
.

[3ball]

.
Lebron's best defenders (All-NBA Defenders Only)

Kobe
Shawn Marion
Kawhi Leonard
Andre Igoudala
Paul George
Gerald Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirelinko
Jimmy Butler
Luol Deng
Ron Artest
Thabo Sefalosha
Shane Battier (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10924107&postcount=24)
Tony Allen
Raja Bell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw&t=8m51s)
Dwayne Wade



MJ's Best Defenders (All-NBA Defenders Only)

Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)
Gary Payton
Michael Cooper
Derrick Mckey
Ronaldo Blackman
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Eddie Jones
John Starks
Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xca8mjSzjIo&t=0m28s)
Anthony Mason
Clifford Robinson
Nate McMillan
Kevin Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753)***
Dan Majerle
Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ)
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Bobby Phills



MJ's Best Two-Way Opponents:

Penny Hardaway (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24)
Grant Hill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322)
Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450)
Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8)
Dominique Wilkins (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25)
Ron Harper
Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373989)
Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)
Sean Elliot
Michael Finley
Kendall Gill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18)
Richard Dumas (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30)
Nick Anderson
Jerry Stackhouse


Also, the list above doesn't include many of the tremendous offensive wings that MJ faced including: Dr. J, James Worthy, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond, Alex English, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Jeff Malone, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034)
.

[Hoopz2332]

why isn't Garnett on the lebron list?:coleman: :lol

[HurricaneKid]

Mason was a great defender - All-NBA... And he absolutely guarded MJ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L2_Yp09-As).

Mason would've been the perfect defender for Lebron - an athletic Boris Diaw - literally, not joking... He was big, strong, athletic, and tough - and obviously, when MJ played him, he was available to guard MJ every game.. But MJ's typical GOAT stats or performance were never deterred by Mason.



Wizard MJ (old man MJ) destroyed Shawn Marion for 41 points, all on Shawn Marion, and hit a game winner on him in another game... That's MORE impressive than if he'd have played Marion in his prime as a Bull:

41 points, all on Shawn Marion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg
Game-winner in Marion's face: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg
Would-be GW on Marion in All-Star game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPmPu-JxJ9A
.

And I could dig up a clip of Muggsy switching on to Mark Eaton. So the **** what? That doesn't mean they were matched up for any meaningful amount of time.

Scoring on rookie Marion is More impressive? Its like you are TRYING to be stupid. Marion came into the league 5 years after Kobe. No one thinks Kobe and MJ were the same era. Why would someone coming in 5 years after THAT be considered same era?

[HurricaneKid]

why isn't Garnett on the lebron list?:coleman: :lol

Because ignorant arbitrary list is arbitrary.

[Hoopz2332]

Because ignorant arbitrary list is arbitrary.


:applause:

[Hey Yo]

lebron's team lost by more than any team ever has in the Finals.

that means you could've replaced him with literally anyone in the world - you or me - and the same thing happens - the Heat lose by record margin..

so yeah, i'm quite certain Lebron's pursuit of efficiency over all else was suboptimal.

the stats back me up - In 21 out of the 24 years since 1991, the team leader in shot attempts on the Finals-winning team took more than 25.56% of the team's shots - which means that the load Lebron took on in 2014 Finals (25.56% of his team's shots) was not a large load, and the notion that he couldn't have done more, or that no one else would've done more, is wrong - 21 out of the last 24 did more.


also, the guys that DID win while shooting less than Lebron - they all had well-balanced teams (KG's 08' Celtics, Parker's Spurs, Rip Hamilton's Pistons).. the Heat were top heavy - they OBVIOUSLY needed Lebron to take over, especially once it was evident the Spurs were playing him straight up - but he was too addicted and blinded by the efficiency strategy he'd employed all year to see the obvious.
.
That was the 3rd consecutive Finals he led his team in points, rebounds assists and steals.

Not all superstars who comeback after quitting for 2yrs have 2 All-NBA defense first teamers, the best rebounder in the league and a shortened 3pt line waiting for them

[3ball]

That was the 3rd consecutive Finals he led his team in points, rebounds assists and steals.

Not all superstars who comeback after quitting for 2yrs have 2 All-NBA defense first teamers, the best rebounder in the league and a shortened 3pt line waiting for them



Here's what happens if MJ only got 28 PPG in 93' Finals instead of 41 PPG:


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MQmXy-g7bHQ/U55YJiPhrAI/AAAAAAAAHmE/SxmlR-Ep7rk/s1600/leb.gif


Team Stats - 1993 Finals

Bulls PPG: 106.7
Suns PPG: 106.7

Bulls ORtg: 113.0
Suns ORtg: 113.0


As you can see, every ounce of Jordan's 41 PPG was needed against the Suns #1 ranked offense.. Otoh, when it was Lebron's turn to take a shot at 3-peating, his production stopped at 28 PPG and the remaining gap was left for his teammates to make up..

But without Lebron attracting sufficient defensive attention and disrupting the defense by being aggressive, the Spurs stayed at home on his teammates.. So the supporting cast had no chance to make up the gap, not to mention being uninspired by their passive, play-it-safe leader.

Lebron only took 17 shots per game while leading a top-heavy team and thought he had would win that way - there are no excuses for that type of sheer dumbness.

Also, he averaged 4 APG and 4 TO's.. So if you prefer "leading your team" that way instead of dropping 36.3 PPG and 7.9 APG (Jordan's Finals average thru age 30), then fine, but don't be surprised when Lebron keeps losing.
.